0:01

BBC Sounds, music, radio,

0:03

podcasts. Okay, Sarah, here's

0:06

a question for you. I've

0:08

been hearing rumours of a

0:10

democratic plot involving Taylor Swift,

0:12

the Super Bowl-bound Kansas City

0:14

Chiefs, and Vivek Ramaswamy as

0:17

our resident Taylor Swift expert. Can you explain to

0:19

me what the heck is going on? Yeah,

0:21

well, you forgot that actually there's a tie

0:23

between Taylor Swift and the Pentagon as well

0:25

who are acting in concert against Donald Trump.

0:28

Let me try to explain this remarkable

0:30

story to you. It's

0:32

a brand new conspiracy theory that says,

0:34

well, firstly, that Taylor Swift and her

0:36

boyfriend, Travis Kelsey, who plays for the

0:39

Kansas City Chiefs, are not a real

0:41

couple. They're just pretending. It

0:43

has also been orchestrated by elements of the

0:45

deep state to get the Kansas City Chiefs

0:47

into the Super Bowl to give more

0:49

prominence to the couple in

0:51

preparation for them coming out and

0:54

endorsing Joe Biden for president together

0:56

as the most glittering celebrity endorsement

0:58

that you could ever possibly find,

1:00

particularly, of course, if the Kansas

1:03

City Chiefs win the Super Bowl. I imagine

1:05

that's being fixed as we speak at

1:07

the moment. Now, this might sound absolutely

1:09

ridiculous for the very good reason that

1:11

it is absolutely ridiculous, but Vivek

1:14

Ramaswamy, who some people were taking seriously

1:16

in his bid to become the Republican

1:18

nominee for president, he's now dropped out

1:20

and endorsed Donald Trump. He's been tweeting

1:22

about this, suggesting he thinks it's actually

1:25

true. I mean, he disappeared down a

1:27

conspiracy theory rabbit hole a while ago.

1:29

But I mean, this is really quite

1:31

something to believe that, yeah, that this

1:33

is the entire thing has been orchestrated

1:36

to give Joe Biden a bump when Taylor

1:38

Swift gets behind him. Isn't the issue with Taylor

1:40

Swift, though, that she has a

1:42

huge social media following and she did tweet,

1:44

didn't she, about registering to vote? And a

1:46

lot of people did register to vote on

1:49

that day. Or am I making that up? And

1:51

mine are going down some terrible rabbit hole.

1:53

But I mean, basically, in other words, she

1:56

does have a kind of power via social

1:58

media that back in the day. Beyonce

2:02

or various other stars who've

2:05

backed candidates in the past didn't have. I

2:07

think you're absolutely right, Justin. It's not just

2:09

that she can reach people on social media.

2:11

It's the fact that Taylor Swift was kind

2:14

of the first social media superstar in

2:16

that she has this direct link to

2:18

her fan base and her followers.

2:21

She speaks to them, it feels kind

2:23

of intimately over social media. She's

2:25

much closer to them than other

2:28

superstars are with their following. She

2:30

tells them to register to vote, or if she does

2:32

at some point, come out and endorse a candidate. She

2:34

did endorse Joe Biden in 2020. It's

2:37

very possible that a key demographic of young

2:40

voters who might not have been motivated otherwise,

2:42

who might not be very excited, for instance,

2:44

as Joe Biden as a candidate, if

2:47

Tay-Tay says, get out there and vote

2:49

for him, then there's every chance they will

2:51

actually do it because they're so closely bonded

2:53

with their favorite pop star. We

2:55

will move on from Taylor Swift controversies

2:58

on this episode to look at the

3:00

deeply serious question of what's happening in

3:02

the Middle East since three American service

3:04

people were killed at the weekend, what

3:06

America's response is likely to be to

3:08

that. And we'll be talking to the

3:10

veteran CNN journalist, Christiane Amanpour, who knows

3:12

the Middle East intimately well, and she'll

3:14

be giving us her thoughts about

3:16

that. Before we get to that, though, we've

3:18

got a listener question, one for you, I

3:20

think, Anthony. Here is Mark

3:22

in Dublin, who emailed us this excellent

3:24

question. Hello, America's team. I've

3:27

been listening of great interest to your

3:29

coverage of the Republican primaries contest. I

3:32

note that after just two of the 50 states

3:34

have voted for Trump, you appear

3:36

to have written off the sneaky hating. I'm

3:39

assuming every state holds a primary

3:41

vote to pick their nominated candidate

3:43

to represent their party in the

3:46

November presidential election. Therefore,

3:48

the candidate that wins 26 or

3:51

more states goes forward to the November

3:53

election. How can you write off Nikki

3:55

Haley so early on? Well, thanks for

3:57

your question, Mark. And it is a

3:59

good question. As Nikki Haley's people

4:01

will point out, only two states have voted.

4:03

We have 48 more states, plus some territories,

4:05

give or take, that still have to weigh

4:08

in. The challenge is that, one,

4:10

a public opinion poll show

4:12

that Donald Trump is by far

4:14

the most popular candidate among Republican

4:16

voters in all of the upcoming

4:18

states. And if you look at

4:20

these first two states, Iowa

4:23

and New Hampshire, particularly New Hampshire,

4:25

Nikki Haley invested a ton of

4:27

resources, tens of millions of dollars,

4:29

trying to win New Hampshire. She

4:31

campaigned there over and over again.

4:33

The voting demographics of New Hampshire,

4:36

the number of college-educated voters, the

4:38

fact that independent voters could switch

4:40

and vote in the Republican primary,

4:42

the fact that the Republican electorate

4:44

there is somewhat more to the

4:46

middle, all of this set

4:48

up where it was perhaps the best

4:50

state for Nikki Haley, that she had

4:52

the best chance of winning there than

4:55

anything else on the calendar, and she

4:57

still fell short by 11 percentage

4:59

points. So if she couldn't win there, it's

5:01

very hard to look at all these other

5:03

states coming up and see

5:05

any place, even her home state of South

5:08

Carolina, where she has a real

5:10

chance of winning. And a lot of

5:12

these states where she's competing in, if

5:14

she loses even by one percentage point,

5:16

it's a winner-take-all state. So if Donald

5:18

Trump wins that by just a fraction

5:20

of a percent, he will get all

5:22

the delegates and move on, and he

5:24

will just start amassing more and more

5:26

over the course of the weeks ahead

5:28

the delegates necessary to secure the nomination

5:31

for him. So that's kind of why

5:33

we have decided, and I think most

5:35

political experts looking at this have decided,

5:37

that it is going to be a

5:39

very, very uphill climb for Nikki Haley.

5:41

It's not impossible. Something crazy could happen,

5:43

but it is the longest of long

5:45

shots at this point. One of the

5:47

reasons why we shouldn't be entirely sure

5:49

that she's not going to be the candidate is we

5:51

don't know what is going to happen to Donald Trump.

5:53

And I guess that must be her thinking, isn't it?

5:56

That if she can just stay in the race, even if

5:58

she loses these states, as Anthony says, It's almost

6:00

certain that she would lose virtually

6:03

all of the states that are still to vote. But even

6:06

if she were to lose, she would

6:08

still be in the race. And if something

6:10

happened to Donald Trump between now and the

6:12

convention, she could turn, couldn't she, to the

6:15

party and say, look, I am the other

6:17

candidate, so you've got to go to me.

6:19

So there is a kind of, there's a

6:21

reason for her carrying on and for us

6:24

not to entirely dismiss that carrying on. As

6:26

long as she has some money to keep going and

6:29

she enjoys the media attention, there's

6:31

no reason for her to drop

6:33

out unless she has a concern

6:35

that this could totally destroy her

6:37

standing within Donald Trump's movement and

6:39

adversely affect her political prospects going

6:41

forward. But I guess she made

6:43

the calculation that that chip has

6:45

already sailed to some extent and

6:47

she might as well position herself as the

6:49

kind of person who maybe four years from

6:51

now, eight years from now could pick up

6:53

the pieces from Donald Trump's

6:56

movement, fashion a different kind of Republican coalition

6:58

and take the party on. It's

7:00

a risk, obviously, but it's one that she

7:02

seems to have made the decision to take.

7:05

Well, my decision is that it's time, guys,

7:07

that we say welcome

7:10

to America. America,

7:14

America from BBC News.

7:17

Let me start off with two words made

7:19

in America. I'm not running for santa here.

7:21

I'm running for president. I did everything right

7:23

and they indicted me. I can chew and

7:25

walk on at the same time. There is

7:28

no indication of aliens or

7:30

extraterrestrial activity. We will fight the

7:32

woke in education. We will fight the

7:34

woke in the businesses. We will never

7:36

ever surrender to the woke mob. Nobody

7:38

should have to go to jail for

7:40

smoking weed. It's

7:52

Justin in the worldwide headquarters of America's

7:54

in London, England And Sarah Smith.

7:56

They're back in the Washington bureau here

7:58

at the heart of American. Politics

8:00

in Washington, Dc. Beating. Heart

8:02

and it is Anthony sitting next to

8:04

say are also here in Washington Dc

8:07

And in a second we have a

8:09

big into the a Christian Amanpour who

8:11

in case people don't know of her

8:13

is a British Iranian journalist, was the

8:16

Cnn's work for Cnn for decades but

8:18

she is more than that as well.

8:20

She is someone who has worked around

8:23

the world, covered was been bombed and

8:25

source hot but also done a number

8:27

of interviews with people were she has

8:29

herself brought them to account so she.

8:32

Is the kind of person exactly the

8:34

right person to talk to us today

8:36

about America and Iran embassy grub partly

8:38

in Iran. Her father was Iranian, the

8:40

she was born in Britain. She knows

8:42

around wealth and they know how well

8:45

two sets of they will be interesting.

8:47

Sarah non not only because of what

8:49

he says about the United States and

8:51

to Bidens options, etc etc, but also

8:53

because she says all of those things

8:55

with a real knowledge of the area

8:57

and indeed of the country of Iran.

9:00

And. That's what so crucial right now

9:02

is into his should try to anticipate

9:04

what Iran's response will be to whatever

9:06

America does. The we are talking now

9:09

at ten Am in Washington, three Pm

9:11

in London on Wednesday and we anticipate

9:13

that at some point in the near

9:15

future America will take military action. In

9:18

response to the fact that three soldiers

9:20

were killed at the weekend and a

9:22

drone attack that set came from a

9:24

Iranian backed militias, it is inevitable that

9:26

America's gonna have to take action. in

9:29

fact, you Biden said himself. That. We.

9:31

Will respond. We're not entirely sure

9:33

what form that's going to take,

9:35

and the most important thing for

9:37

the White House is to try

9:39

to avoid whatever they do creating

9:42

more conflict in the region. And to

9:44

do that they have to try. To anticipate what around

9:46

response will be and that's why talking to somebody

9:48

who knows the Iranian leadership like to see I

9:50

will be so valuable. Yeah it's a fraught moment

9:53

out of what of eggs i heard her when

9:55

I was traveling with like an earlier this year

9:57

in in the Middle East. Was that preventing the.

10:00

The conflict from spreading throughout the

10:02

region was a central focus of

10:04

American foreign policy. Everywhere I went

10:06

I found leaders who are determined

10:09

to prevent these have with that

10:11

we're facing now from spreading. Doing

10:14

everything possible to deter

10:16

escalation. Prevent a

10:19

wise and. He

10:21

was-in all around from country to country,

10:23

not only talking to leaders, that country

10:25

be talking to leaders who could talk

10:27

to people like the Iranians and these

10:29

militants saw. In Yemen, I Hezbollah

10:31

in Southern Lebanon, In Iraq In

10:34

Syria All these people who are

10:36

stirring the pot and starting to

10:38

attack Us forces to try to

10:40

tamp down on the possibility that

10:42

this could expand and will be

10:45

seen. Since then, I continued strikes

10:47

by the Who, the militants in

10:49

Yemen targeting Western shipping and the

10:51

states respond militarily and now or

10:54

a striker in Northern Jordan that

10:56

has resulted in American deaths and

10:58

as you mentioned, Sarah is going

11:00

to lead to American reprisals. The

11:02

question is how big and how

11:05

much as pulls the United States

11:07

further into once is looking more

11:09

and more like a regional complex.

11:11

Isn't the same time? is trying. To make sure

11:13

this doesn't spread in terms of the

11:16

conflict, the American acts doesn't make that

11:18

worse. There has to be a response

11:20

asmir response and of for American public

11:22

opinions sake as well as to act

11:24

as. A deterrent against this happening

11:26

again and because. There's a lot of

11:28

political pressure on President Biden at the moment

11:31

coming from certain Republicans who are saying it

11:33

is. it is weakness it is in acts

11:35

in that caused this to happen in the

11:38

first place. that they're America hasn't been aggressive

11:40

enough to act as a deterrent against these

11:42

and militant groups daring to try and strike

11:44

American forces. Yeah, it's interesting you say there

11:47

has to be response to the eminent as

11:49

a understand why Santa Mums as he sure

11:51

you're right but. Because I'm in

11:53

in the doesn't actually have to Their response:

11:55

doing nothing was an option. As an option

11:57

they've now ruled out of the kind of

11:59

brew. in doing something. But I think

12:01

a lot of foreign policy experts might

12:03

say that the big risk for

12:06

the president now is that American

12:08

domestic politics turn this into something

12:11

that is more serious

12:13

than it would otherwise be. That's the

12:15

danger of an election year. We're

12:17

joined by Christiane Amanpour. I should say in the

12:20

interests of full disclosure, as they say, that I've

12:22

known Christiane often on, actually for

12:24

decades, first meeting her in the Bosnian

12:26

Civil War, where she was

12:29

not only staggeringly brave, but she

12:31

also was the first example

12:33

I ever saw of someone speaking truth to power

12:35

and doing it in a manner that I

12:38

just couldn't be bothered to do. So

12:40

we'd gone, Christiane, at the end of

12:42

a very long day, which had involved

12:44

a helicopter ride at zero altitude almost

12:46

to avoid anti-aircraft fire. And we'd gone

12:49

to the Bosnian Serb headquarters. And you

12:51

then decided to beard

12:54

Radovan Karajic, the leader of the Bosnian Serbs, and

12:56

tell him what an awful man he was. And

12:58

I was just thinking, number one, this is quite

13:00

a brave thing to do because we're at their

13:02

home. But number two, I just wish you wouldn't

13:04

because I wanted to go to bed. Anyway, you've

13:06

been doing that all your life and it's a

13:08

real pleasure to have you on the podcast. Justin,

13:11

thank you very much. That's a really sweet memory,

13:13

a sweet, I don't know, for me anyway.

13:15

And I tell you what, that whole war

13:17

there, which wasn't really a civil war,

13:19

it was a war of ethnic nationalism

13:22

by the Bosnian Serbs led by that

13:24

guy with his patron, you know, Milosevic

13:26

in Yugoslavia, to clear

13:28

out one ethnic group. And

13:30

for me, I had to speak truth to

13:33

power, but also I learned how to be

13:35

truthful, not just neutral. And

13:37

I also brought all that I learned

13:39

in Bosnia, all the way to

13:41

all the war zones and other things I've

13:43

been covering, including now in Ukraine

13:45

and elsewhere. Yeah. Okay.

13:48

So be truthful, but not necessarily

13:50

neutral about Iran and the US

13:52

now. How do you see this?

13:55

What is going on behind the scenes

13:57

and what is the best resolution to. Well

14:01

in the hopes that when odds

14:03

are outdated by events Ah is

14:05

very difficult to see a resolution

14:07

because this entire prices at the

14:10

moment of both the be plenty

14:12

of crises in the past between

14:14

United States are and Iran but

14:16

this particular one is around. What's

14:18

happening in Gaza? Iran is

14:20

using his proxies in that

14:22

region. And they are dotted all over

14:24

or to speak power or whether they're

14:26

truth to the power of the United

14:28

States and Israel. In other words, stop

14:31

the carnage. In Gaza or this is.

14:33

How would they into response now? do?

14:35

I think that they deliberately set out

14:37

to kill American. Forces? I'm not

14:39

sure it's a very big escalations.

14:41

The edo their lives, There has

14:44

been missiles and groans and all

14:46

sorts of things flying around that

14:48

regents between all sorts of different

14:50

senses of gravity. Whether it's the

14:52

Iran backed militias in Syria, any

14:54

robbed of booties school more than

14:56

a militia as you can see

14:58

right now firing actual miss isles

15:00

as shipping in the or in

15:03

the Red Sea, etc. Ah, weather

15:05

is Hezbollah and Israel facing off

15:07

on the Northern Israeli. Border and

15:09

the continued or Israel from Us

15:11

warfare there's going to launch including

15:13

have must still fiery some rockets

15:15

into Israel which means that Israel

15:17

has not met it's more time

15:20

goal of destroying her mosques Saw:

15:22

how is this gonna end? It's

15:24

hard to tell, certainly they are

15:26

baying for more war in some

15:28

quarters in the United States. but

15:30

interestingly it's interesting. The not the my

15:32

the groups and not Donald Trump. They

15:34

don't want war on there was

15:36

they are more isolationists, but it's

15:38

clearly Biden thinks he has to

15:41

do something to a real stabbed

15:43

his deterrence and to ensure that

15:45

no, you know we'll get Old

15:47

Tree a happy Militia actually kills

15:49

American troops without it becoming a

15:51

major houses bell. I am for

15:53

another war in the Middle East

15:55

I would say, and I think

15:57

it's important with this in context.

16:00

The United States hand is

16:02

Iraq. To Iran when it invaded

16:04

and occupied in two thousand and

16:06

three the big winners out of

16:09

the Us war against Iraq in

16:11

two thousand and Three was Iran

16:13

period. End of story. Yeah.

16:15

And and you know that well,

16:17

and it's become obvious to everyone

16:19

since then. But I suppose in

16:22

that context. In. The Post.

16:24

Iraq War Context Incomes:

16:26

Donald Trump. Saying.

16:29

Of that was a mistake. I wouldn't have fought

16:31

it. I had to cope with the

16:33

world as it was then. And love

16:35

of his supporters now say and I had

16:37

this when I was in in i work

16:40

at a few weeks ago saying you know

16:42

what, the world was safer and our relationship

16:44

with Iran was better actually because each side

16:46

knew what the other. Was. Capable of

16:48

doing when Trump was President and and that

16:50

for Biden is a problem isn't even if

16:52

even in a less put to one side

16:54

I see whether or not that's true. It's

16:57

not true and I think we can't put

16:59

that to one side. We absolutely have to

17:02

expect a tell people that that is

17:04

not true the first thing. That. Donald

17:06

Trump did against the advice of

17:08

all his allies. You member macro

17:10

the President went to the White

17:12

House. Embrace Trump, try to persuade

17:14

him don't pull out of the

17:17

Iran Nuclear Deal. This is the

17:19

only. Constraint. We

17:21

have on Iran this of as he

17:23

was an Obama Administration negotiations with at

17:25

least put and Arms control agreement in.

17:28

Place even if you didn't get everything you wanted. From

17:30

Iran Trump pulled out of it t.

17:32

Claim to his people into the. World that

17:34

he was such a genius that he

17:37

would exert maximum pressure. That became the

17:39

slogan of Americans Iran policies are only

17:41

Ron in order that. He would get

17:43

a better deal. It went nowhere. He

17:46

did not get a better deal now

17:48

Iran, which it hadn't been. for all

17:50

these years could according to the americans

17:52

are experts on on this and the

17:54

people who who watch this could be

17:57

very very close to his they wanted

17:59

to developing a nuclear weapon, pulling

18:01

that trigger, rather than just enrichment and

18:04

the like, which they've upped to an

18:06

enormous degree. In addition, Donald

18:08

Trump failed to come to the

18:10

aid of his allies Saudi Arabia

18:12

when Iran with drones attacked their

18:14

main oil

18:17

facility inside Saudi Arabia. He said, no, I'm

18:19

not going to do that. And

18:21

he, I'm not going to support my allies.

18:23

So this is all a bit weird. But

18:25

he did, if you remember, launch

18:27

the attack on Rassam Soleimani, the

18:29

head of the Huz Force of

18:31

the Revolutionary Guard.

18:33

But that wasn't in Iran. It

18:36

was in Iraq. And yes, Trump

18:38

did not attack Iran, even though many

18:40

of his allies had suggested that he

18:42

should because there were even attacks on

18:45

American servicemen and women back then. Christian,

18:47

you know very well that because this

18:49

is a presidential election year, domestic politics

18:52

are interfering with the decisions that the

18:54

president has to make. And this idea

18:56

that Donald Trump puts forward that his

18:59

strong man presence in the White House

19:01

would deter the kind of attack that

19:03

killed American forces at the weekend, whether

19:06

or not that's true, of course. So

19:08

Joe Biden is now faced with trying

19:11

to make a decision that responds to that as

19:13

well as responding to the facts on the ground,

19:15

trying to thread the needle of saying this

19:17

action will look like a deterrent to stop

19:19

other people trying to attack our troops in

19:22

the region. And it will also look like

19:24

vengeance to a certain degree, but not so

19:26

much that it escalates the conflict in the

19:28

region. Is it possible to achieve all of

19:30

those aims? Look,

19:32

I think it's very important for

19:35

your listeners and viewers to understand

19:37

that whatever Donald Trump says is

19:39

not what is the facts. It

19:42

is really important to tell people that

19:44

he has essentially lied to the world

19:46

and to the American people about foreign

19:49

policy and domestic policy for, you know,

19:51

ever since 2015 when he began his

19:53

first campaign for president. And now he's

19:56

coming back saying that I'm the strong

19:58

man, the only People. Who

20:00

that will appease a be polite Pucci

20:02

and people like Kim Jong own people

20:05

like you know all those people who

20:07

easy I was using paying for it

20:09

is all those people who is expressed

20:12

you know respect for and so I

20:14

think that yes President Biden if it

20:16

was me and is not me thank

20:19

goodness so as to make this very

20:21

very difficult decision I would be very

20:23

troubled by. The as I said

20:25

it earlier. the baying for. A War

20:28

on Iran by certain quarters of

20:30

the extreme right wing. In Congress

20:32

at the same time having to do

20:34

something to as I said, Detour itself.

20:36

I don't want to say what it will.

20:38

Be because I don't know and at but

20:41

I do think yes, he has a digital

20:43

needle to thread on. I think the fact

20:45

that it's happening in an election year is

20:47

difficult, but more to the point I think

20:50

it's not even the election. Yes, For

20:52

me anyway as a as a

20:54

foreign policy of and unsuitable

20:56

award journalists. It's that there's so

20:58

much more in the region now

21:00

they don't know which way to

21:03

zoc their know what to do

21:05

right now. And a not only

21:07

that, you have Donald Trump and

21:09

his allies nixing a board a

21:11

deal that was about to pass

21:13

between the Democrats and and the

21:15

Republicans Which means the Ukraine will

21:17

not get that the weapons it

21:19

needs to actually defend not just

21:21

it's own self and it's own

21:23

democracies, but our democracy and and

21:25

Us national. Security. So this is

21:27

a very very complex and very

21:30

dangerous moment and it is a

21:32

real problem that is being. Models.

21:35

And fake news by by

21:38

the mega when. Now we

21:40

definitely need stoked. By the southern border in the

21:42

way it's being tied into American foreign policy. But just

21:44

before we did, let me ask you this. Sticking with

21:46

Iran and this is a genuine query. I don't know

21:48

the answer to this. When the

21:50

Pentagon is planning some kind.

21:53

Of retaliatory military strike? Is it

21:55

possible at the same time for

21:57

diplomats to be talking to the

21:59

leadership in. Iran and saying, we're

22:01

going to have to take action, you've forced our

22:04

hand, this will

22:06

happen, but please do not

22:08

retaliate. Understand that this is

22:10

us responding to the fact that our troops

22:12

have been killed, this is not us trying

22:14

to escalate the conflict. And can you be

22:16

talking to them trying to calm things down

22:18

at the same time as you're escalating your

22:21

military action? Look, I don't

22:23

know because I'm not in the room, but I do know

22:25

that the Iranians have said, if you attack us,

22:27

whatever you tell us about not wanting a war,

22:29

and remember, well, we'll get to

22:31

this in a minute, the US keeps saying we

22:33

don't want another war with Iran, but if you

22:35

attack us, we're going to retaliate. I mean, that's

22:37

what they've said publicly. What happens,

22:40

what the reaction is from the United States and

22:42

then from Iran, we just don't know yet. But

22:45

it is a very, very difficult situation. And

22:47

there are many experts who are

22:49

calling for proportionality.

22:52

And again, remember that Donald Trump did

22:55

not want to attack Iran when many

22:57

on his right flank said that he

22:59

should over various things. And all the

23:01

way back to the George W. Bush

23:03

administration, when again, Israel and others and

23:08

his own right wing were urging him to

23:10

attack Iran, remember, it was going to be

23:12

Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, you know, and and

23:15

he didn't, because they didn't

23:17

think that that was going to raise

23:20

the security of the American people, national

23:22

security. And let's just not forget, it's

23:25

one thing to be hitting non

23:27

state actors, the Houthis, for instance,

23:29

in Yemen and their bases, the

23:31

Iran backed militias, wherever they may

23:33

be in Iraq, in Syria

23:35

and elsewhere. It's

23:37

another thing to attack a sovereign

23:40

nation with a big military and

23:42

a huge country. And I'm sure

23:45

President Biden is looking at, you

23:47

know, weeks of attacking bases in

23:50

in in Yemen, and seeing no

23:52

response and no no, you

23:54

know, no end to the to the Houthis action.

23:57

So if they having trouble with the Houthis,

23:59

you can imagine that. how it's going to be

24:01

trying to direct firepower to Iran. Look, if

24:03

you want me to bet, I would

24:05

say they're going to choose some kind of other route.

24:08

I may be wrong. But

24:10

since 1979, when the Islamic

24:12

Republic came and basically

24:14

cited America as its enemy, member

24:16

of the Great Satan, America

24:19

has never struck Iran and vice versa. Iran

24:21

has never struck America. So it

24:23

would be a massive new war in the Middle

24:25

East. You know Iran well,

24:27

obviously, and your background,

24:29

your heritage. How

24:32

rational are the

24:34

Iranian leadership? How open

24:36

do you think to

24:39

the world of diplomacy

24:41

and pressure? Very

24:43

rational. I think they're very rational. And you've

24:45

seen that in 46 years. Not

24:48

the politics most of the West likes, but

24:51

they are about survival of their regime

24:53

and the projection

24:55

of whatever power and influence they

24:57

can. So in that regard,

25:01

they would rather survive

25:03

than have any kind of existential

25:05

threat posed on them. Christian,

25:08

you brought up Donald Trump, or we did or

25:11

someone did, and he always comes in to every

25:13

conversation we ever have on an America. I'm conscious

25:15

you've only got two or three more minutes with

25:17

us. I just want to ask you, you've been

25:19

quite outspoken in the past about how Donald Trump

25:22

should be regarded. It looks as if he is

25:24

going to be the nominee from the Republicans. It

25:26

looks as if there is going to be a

25:29

long campaign now, and all of

25:31

us, the BBC, CNN, everyone

25:33

has got to work out how

25:35

to treat him. But

25:38

where do we start, do you think? What are the kind

25:40

of first principles? Well, the

25:42

first thing I think we need to

25:44

do is be truthful, not neutral. This

25:46

is not an equal fight between the

25:48

candidate on the Republican side and the

25:50

candidate on the Democratic side. It is

25:52

not an equal political base. One

25:55

is all about lies and

25:58

conspiracy theories. That's just what he does. You

26:00

know, he's been indicted for

26:02

an insurrection that was aimed

26:04

at violently overthrowing the peaceful

26:07

and legitimate election in the United States in

26:09

2020. That in

26:11

itself, some people believe, should be disqualifying.

26:14

That's the 14th Amendment that a lot

26:16

of people are struggling with.

26:19

But on the other side, I think what we

26:21

have to do as journalists, and we're journalists, we

26:23

cannot do all sides are equal. We

26:26

cannot do neutrality. We cannot do on

26:28

the one hand, on the other hand,

26:30

we have to be absolutely fact and

26:33

evidence based and point out what

26:35

he doesn't says and what the

26:37

effects are and point out the

26:39

Biden record and what the effects are. And right

26:41

now, in terms of domestic

26:43

policy, look, it's really

26:45

tricky overseas right now. I obviously

26:47

understand that Biden is in a

26:49

big bind for the moment over

26:51

Gaza, over certainly over Ukraine, if

26:53

the Republicans don't give the

26:56

weapons, but he's in a big bind. But

26:58

on most of the other policies that he has set

27:01

his mind to, he's had successful legislation,

27:03

he's worked in a bipartisan way

27:05

when it's possible. He tried to

27:07

do, you know, even irritating his

27:10

own left flank to do a

27:12

bipartisan border deal if the Republicans

27:15

Trump pressured even the Senate, the

27:17

so-called sensible Republicans to

27:19

drop it because he wants to run

27:21

on immigration chaos. So I think

27:23

we have to point those things out. And I do not

27:26

think that we can just give this

27:28

person a platform. Don't forget, this is a

27:30

person who wants to shut us all down too.

27:32

He does not want to hear the truth. He

27:35

wants to demonize us as well. So I

27:37

think we have to be incredibly knowledgeable,

27:40

cognizant, aware, and have the

27:42

courage of our journalistic convictions

27:44

to tell it as it

27:47

is. And you

27:49

know, everybody was so excited. Remember during 2019 and

27:52

before that Trump had met Kim

27:54

Jong Un and maybe there was going to be

27:56

a ratcheting down of tensions. I mean, she

27:58

told me it was a... complete debacle, the

28:01

Hanoi summit, which we all covered,

28:03

because there was zero follow-through. Trump

28:05

is about performance, and

28:08

his MAGA people are about

28:10

performance. That is the analysis

28:12

of Republicans on the old

28:14

Republican guard and moderate Republicans.

28:16

That is what they do. They're not interested

28:18

in policy. They're interested in politics. And as

28:20

long as we report that, that's

28:22

what we do, but we can't pretend

28:25

that the current house, for instance, is

28:27

interested in policy, even immigration policy. They're

28:29

interested in politics and in power and

28:31

in performance. Christian, you told me before

28:33

we started, you had a hard out,

28:36

as they say in broadcasting terms, and we've

28:38

reached that hard out. So I'm going to,

28:40

I'm so frightened of you and there are

28:43

consequences of messing you around that

28:45

I'm going to say. I'll do one more

28:47

question from Sarah. Sarah, have you got another?

28:50

Christian, we said we would return to

28:53

immigration and the way it's being tied

28:55

into domestic politics with Republicans in the

28:57

house insisting that they won't fund Ukraine

28:59

and possibly even dragging what's happening into

29:01

the Middle East around a deal on

29:03

the border. But this is one of the

29:05

most intractable issues that there are in American

29:07

politics trying to sort out immigration.

29:11

How much worse is it when it is

29:13

now being drawn into these other international crises?

29:16

So much worse. And the truth

29:18

is, you're right, you know, there has been, there

29:20

have been bipartisan plans to solve

29:22

this each and every time they've

29:25

been torpedoed by politics. And

29:28

it is a big problem, obviously. It's

29:30

a huge problem, not just for the

29:32

United States, which is very visible, but

29:34

all over Europe is a huge problem.

29:36

And it's going to get worse because

29:38

of climate, because of economic fact, all

29:40

the push factors in all the countries

29:42

that we deal with. It is immigration,

29:44

migration. Even here in Britain, you've got the

29:47

debacle of the attempt to deport people

29:49

to Rwanda, which, you know, I mean,

29:51

come on. You can see that the

29:53

politicians are desperate because they deal with

29:56

this politics rather than policy. And

29:58

I'm a person who follows covers

30:00

policy. I'm really not a political reporter.

30:02

So I'm really interested in seeing solutions,

30:05

seeing real world solutions

30:08

and bipartisan attempts to

30:11

solve these things. And

30:14

so now that it's gone

30:16

into the war zones and linked

30:18

to, I mean, it's madness. I

30:20

mean, this is an existential

30:23

crisis for all of us. If Putin

30:25

wins in Ukraine, which

30:28

is not off the cards right now, two

30:30

years into this war, nearly at the two

30:32

year anniversary, this is going

30:34

to open a can of geopolitical

30:37

worms that we can't

30:39

even begin to start imagining. It's

30:42

really an affront and a

30:44

defeat of democracy. It's huge.

30:47

And these guys, do they even know where to

30:50

find Ukraine on a map? I'm

30:52

sorry. It's just not as somebody

30:54

Adam Kinzinger, former Republican, former military

30:56

vet said to me yesterday, the

30:58

Republican Party, particularly the MAGA wing,

31:01

it is not a serious party

31:03

right now. And I'm not being

31:05

political. I'm just being analytical. Well,

31:07

Christian, the sheer breadth of what we've talked to

31:10

you about, I think illustrates everybody just quite

31:12

how busy you are covering all

31:14

of this all around the world. So we really

31:16

do have to let you go. But we are

31:18

genuinely grateful that you were able to join us

31:20

on America. It was a pleasure. Thank you, Sarah.

31:22

Thank you, Justin. Yeah, you're as feisty as you were

31:24

all those years ago in Bosnia, Christian. Never

31:27

slow down. Never slow down.

31:29

See you. Bye. Bye. Well,

31:40

Sarah, a lot to go on there.

31:42

Number one, I mean, my concern, Look,

31:46

I mean, we didn't have time to go

31:48

into this. And Anyway, Christian would have bitten

31:50

my head off if I'd mentioned it. But

31:52

It's not just Trump. It's all Trump's supporters.

31:54

And I Know you've picked this up as

31:56

well. You Talk to perfectly reasonable people who

31:58

don't. Maybe concentrate on foreign. Affairs. But

32:00

but who genuinely think that America

32:02

was safer when Trump was president?

32:05

and they're not going to be

32:07

convinced frankly, by kind of lessons?

32:09

Quite complex lessons about recent diplomacy

32:11

and and recent history. And it

32:13

just seems to me that for

32:15

all of us as broadcasters in

32:18

a way, that's that's the problem.

32:20

Here and I see it. They're not america list

32:22

as either so they want them he actress and

32:25

breaking down vault the fact that the situation are

32:27

but yeah I picked up. Exactly the same

32:29

thing over the last couple of years

32:31

and is born of the historical. Accident.

32:34

That. There were no conflicts in

32:36

which share America.brawl during the time that

32:38

Donald Trump was President and so he.

32:40

Is able to say it's I. Kept

32:42

to out of any of these

32:44

wars I had no wars on.

32:46

The only president is seventy two

32:48

years I didn't have any was

32:50

while simultaneously simplifying foreign policy to

32:52

the point where he can say

32:54

I project a strong image around

32:56

the world. And that acts as a

32:58

deterrent. Jill Biden doesn't So he's He's

33:01

playing into the image of both of

33:03

the man and and oversimplifying it in

33:05

foreign policy terms. But it's something that

33:07

people can understand. And you know, foreign

33:09

policy rarely play as much of a

33:11

part in domestic electoral politics, but but

33:14

horned down to the at. It's.

33:16

Something that people can digest as they

33:18

think about what America projects in the

33:20

world. And that is something that. American

33:22

voters care about. so I mean I

33:24

think it's it. It may not be

33:26

accurate, but it is a clever strategy

33:28

from Donald Trump which is to a

33:30

large extent working. Yeah, the other issues

33:32

of Biden of Courses is electorally from

33:34

the list. His problems: Who's already got

33:36

this problem with with Gaza With people

33:38

who think that is taken the wrong

33:40

cause essential in backing Israel or on

33:42

Gaza but more widely as well that

33:44

what we call the progressive Left, on

33:46

the left in the Democratic Party and

33:48

a lot of students and others who

33:51

they're desperately I will. Vote for them

33:53

and some key states. this actually

33:55

if is he's seen to attack

33:57

Iran. Or. To do things on

33:59

the. Things of which they disapprove. A

34:01

kind of adds to that that difficulty friend

34:03

as an as. Yet. Is being

34:06

interrupted all the time when he makes

34:08

them a campaign. Speeches and events by

34:10

and. Pro Palestinian protesters who are air

34:12

want him to start calling for a

34:14

ceasefire and pay more attention to the

34:16

humanitarian consequences of what's happening in Gaza.

34:18

They feel that that's being ignored by

34:21

the White House snap of course, and

34:23

they would say this, wouldn't they? But

34:25

if you listen to the National Security

34:27

Council spokesperson or people talking for the

34:29

Pentagon, they're very. Insistent that electoral politics,

34:31

opinion polls, any of that kind of

34:33

thing do not come to plays. When

34:36

they're making decisions about military actions that

34:38

they're looking at what's happening on the

34:40

ground, what's the right thing for American

34:42

forces as weighing up obviously the diplomatic

34:44

consequences of it, but not thinking about

34:46

politics. but it's impossible in the year

34:48

like this to look at what's happening

34:50

and for us and. Okay

35:00

folks Moran as in the house and

35:02

I say that with enormous joy because

35:04

the last time I say of our

35:06

anywhere in a hotel in Atlanta Atlanta

35:08

classes yes. As I've I was I learned

35:10

of the last ice be saying Atlanta. Atlanta

35:12

here anyway. says be the best You gave

35:14

his voice night last week. Thank you very

35:16

much for that but is so good to

35:18

have you back live. You are so busy

35:20

on a whole range of things, not as

35:22

Americans seem. Things it is fair to say

35:24

isn't it. Is fair to say. And

35:27

yeah so I can attest back from America and

35:29

well off I saw you. I was in Coffee

35:31

County and I guess back from across the county

35:33

which we need to talk about that was really

35:35

interesting and people have more about that and the

35:37

panorama with day and then I guess that's the

35:39

case in his knee poker series I've been doing

35:41

which is called why do you Hate Me where

35:44

each episode I investigate a different extraordinary case of

35:46

online hey. And the season is the one

35:48

you doing with particular relevance to the

35:50

United States tells is not only about

35:52

this enormously interesting and and frankly most

35:54

terrifying individual case, but also I think

35:57

something about the United States writ large.

35:59

The let's start with what it is

36:01

to to just the facts of what

36:03

you've looked. Admire him investigate. So

36:05

I was schooling on my i get lots

36:07

and lots semesters often lovely ones from America

36:10

is often not Said official concern shows and

36:12

I scrolling through and I had a message

36:14

from a mangled Stewart's and Sue It said

36:16

to me something along the lines of hi

36:18

my on earth I became interested in speaking

36:20

he i'm a survivor of the Las Vegas

36:22

shooting that happened and twenty seventeen and people

36:25

might remember that seating and happened at at

36:27

a music festival am it with a man

36:29

Could Stephen paddock seating people out of a

36:31

hotel window and it was actually the deadliest

36:33

mass shooting by single com and. In Us

36:36

history today am it with a second

36:38

is terrifying events and this man stewart

36:40

his from Northern Ireland with their on

36:42

his honeymoon and when he was that

36:45

he was caught up in this attack

36:47

and luckily him and his wife would

36:49

both. Okay they survived and he

36:51

came out time and he told me soon

36:53

as message he said to me i won't

36:56

tell you about the abuse I experience but

36:58

also about how I fell down the rabbit

37:00

hole with regards to the shooting I lived

37:02

three and so I went out to South

37:05

Us to talk to him and he explained

37:07

to me how ten social media he stopped

37:09

posting because he's worried about gun control in

37:11

America which something we talk about law and

37:14

he as a as some of Northern Ireland

37:16

found it really hard to understand why does

37:18

not stricter gun control in America. Owes.

37:20

The way I could vamp cousins and I

37:22

hope so far away from home. There wasn't

37:25

much supporter and the incident at home so

37:27

my connection to America was fire feel for

37:29

social media platforms that if is years and

37:31

so for me it was just spit know

37:34

your feelings on raw opinions towards things. Cities

37:36

outpacing saying oh I'm this is all about

37:38

where did in a while you guys allow

37:40

that and obviously he's and in I met

37:42

by quite fierce opposition by some people in

37:45

America who really care about them in their

37:47

right right to bear arms, eccentric that dress

37:49

an unsafe. He ended up getting have quite

37:51

bad trolling and and then he was really

37:53

struggling to process of thought that at that

37:55

point and still to be honest now we

37:58

don't really know why this man Stephen. Dick

38:00

good what he did it. It was

38:02

really a really motiveless sheeting. Say to speak, it

38:04

was it. Though there was no clear and obvious

38:07

reason that he had done this and and stood

38:09

on that really hard to cope with, basically because

38:11

he was miles from the Us where this had

38:13

happened, so there was no one could really talk

38:15

states, he tends to social media and he starts.

38:18

Hundred at for answers. What really happened because

38:20

there was no move on? The answer is

38:22

just pull that every thread the see which

38:24

one made the most sense be which one

38:27

probably related to your thera the best And

38:29

that's how you fall into conspiracy theorist. And

38:31

that is denied the mistake you made

38:33

since I searched. For a framework

38:36

that said that explains which

38:38

at a psychological level an

38:40

internal head level. Will.

38:42

Do I sleep for our laws? Such I I

38:44

release could understand six point of the and

38:46

I at think of I'd lived through that

38:48

sitting particularly that one last you don't understand

38:50

why this person has some what they've done

38:52

the you would tend to social media and

38:54

that way to look for answers. I think

38:56

that there's some times and we talked about

38:58

this quite lot but this kind of stigma

39:00

around conspiracy theories that in or you know

39:02

to believe them you have to be silly

39:04

or steal it or not really get this

39:06

title. Run the Pleasantville sat on have a nice. This

39:09

is a very intelligent, very articulate, very

39:11

kind man. He was trying to make

39:13

sense of this traumatic thing that happened

39:16

to him and he turns the social

39:18

media francis and it's not clear what

39:20

happened and say he starts aching This

39:23

one accounts in particular which goes by

39:25

the name of Weg Oag which is

39:27

a pseudonym and it's picture is Nostradamus

39:30

the sixteenth century philosopher and he thought

39:32

following it and this account with putting

39:34

out those documents, police footage or other

39:36

drops. Evidence drops that the police were releasing.

39:39

It also starting to spin these into conspiracy

39:41

theories. Was this actually a government plus of

39:43

some kind? Actually, this was feet. This was

39:46

used to cover up the assassination of the

39:48

Saudi prince or an attempted assassination of Saudi

39:50

prince or was actually helicopters above that was

39:52

shooting people. It wasn't the man in the

39:54

written or was it that that was a

39:57

plans to allow the seating to happen or

39:59

utterly absurd. The had it was never really

40:01

there, someone else did the seating and F

40:03

B I agent and it was all part

40:05

of an attempt to change in a gun

40:08

Rights Know this kinds of stuff and unite

40:10

the most extreme conspiracy theories. The crisis actor

40:12

stuff like believing that you are paid to

40:14

be there or that it was stays in

40:16

some way. It didn't go as far as

40:18

I said. it very much commits to it

40:20

that this was a government plot and he

40:22

was obsessed with this accounts. He told me

40:25

about hours and hours on end sitting in

40:27

his living room in Northern Ireland's obsessing over

40:29

this American account. He has no idea who

40:31

he is and he says scrolling through and

40:33

he's a he's printing off because he's worried

40:36

it's gonna get taken down and he some

40:38

he thinks he's above the conspiracy so soon

40:40

after a year or so realizes this become

40:42

unhealthy, has become paranoid, very isolated and he

40:45

decides to get help and it and has

40:47

therapy in counseling and that really helps in

40:49

process is torment and kind of except that

40:51

maybe he can ever know why this man

40:54

did it and conspiracy theories already a sort

40:56

have sex they're not going to ultimately resolve

40:58

this and that for hims. The conspiracy

41:00

theories while they caused harm upon away as

41:02

a distress they also were a strange ways

41:05

to him of making sense that he now

41:07

sees where he is now as that he

41:09

might not be so so of a piece

41:11

of they all had he not. Kind.

41:14

Of gone through that process of questioning it but.

41:16

What triggered the questioning? Of where he

41:18

was good. Timing Crossing the conspiracy or as

41:20

questioning the conspiracy was when he started to

41:22

think hang on A lot of these narratives

41:25

are kind of conflicting with each other, they

41:27

don't actually make sense and maybe I need

41:29

to look at how I'm feeling right now

41:31

because I think maybe I'm using these of

41:33

my crotch to get saying that it will

41:36

at my crush they would think I'd hold

41:38

on to but actually. Maybe.

41:41

This. Isn't actually helping me in a way that

41:43

I thought it was. Help Me. And it's not

41:45

helping me find the truth out because I'm never

41:47

going to know if any of these plots happened.

41:49

And actually all of the evidence available does point

41:52

to the fact that this man, for whatever reason,

41:54

decided to commit suicide shots of violence. The I

41:56

mention that because facts. Helps

41:59

him and. I'm not sure that facts

42:01

always do help with conspiracy theories. I think

42:03

sometimes people are just not interested or also

42:06

they're involved in the conspiracy theory for

42:08

reasons that are not going to be

42:11

sorted out by them just being bombarded

42:13

by the likes of you with actual

42:15

information. It doesn't work like that. I

42:17

completely agree. So I actually think that the

42:20

what is often besides the point is actually

42:22

the why. And in Stuart's case, the evidence

42:24

only worked when his frame of mind was

42:26

different. And I think that's what's crucial here

42:29

is that it took his family and friends

42:31

and people saying, hang on a second, you're

42:33

becoming really isolated, you're becoming very anxious, you're

42:35

becoming very paranoid. Let's step away from this.

42:37

And it was only on stepping away from

42:40

it and actually sharing. And this is what

42:42

happens so often I find is that people

42:44

have very legitimate questions and concerns or very

42:46

legitimate things that they are terrified about. And

42:48

if you can't make sense of a shooting,

42:51

and I really understand this, I think if

42:53

I was caught up in something like that,

42:55

I'd want to know what happened because I'd

42:57

feel like I could stop it

42:59

happening to me again. Because how can you prevent

43:01

it happening again, if you don't know what happened

43:03

in the first place? So I think, oh, okay,

43:05

right, that does make sense. Because we can't make

43:07

sense of random acts of violence. But the same

43:09

thing happened with 9-11. And still does. I mean, there's

43:11

always you know, better than I do. There's a whole

43:14

conspiracy theory set of conspiracy theories about 9-11 and

43:16

people who are absolutely still convinced by them.

43:18

But again, a lot of it because of

43:21

the psychological need to

43:24

have some sort of explanation

43:27

that is explicable to them. And

43:29

that's it though, the psychological need and

43:31

for Stuart, that psychological need shifted because

43:33

he managed to quell it in

43:35

a different way, which was actually talking

43:38

about the traumatic experience he'd had and

43:40

processing and making sense of that, rather

43:42

than kind of using the conspiracy theories

43:45

to quell his distress, I think. The

43:47

whole of this podcast series is about

43:49

how when we take this stuff offline,

43:52

understanding is possible and forgiveness is possible

43:54

and resolution is possible and we're going

43:56

to do it left, you know, in touch

43:58

friends like It

44:01

was brilliant and now they're sort of

44:03

messaging each other and messaging me and

44:08

it's sort of one of the most, everything I

44:10

investigated was so horrible. It's exposing

44:12

the horrible stuff but then saying, oh look it can have

44:14

a happy ending sometimes, not for the time. In all of

44:16

the episodes I think it does have a happy ending. Okay,

44:18

how do people hear the whole

44:21

podcast? You can go to BBC Sounds where

44:23

of course you can listen to America's and you can

44:25

listen to Why Do You Hate Me. The first two

44:27

episodes are available now and then it will be available

44:29

weekly on a Wednesday so when you're missing America's you

44:31

can listen to it first and then you can listen

44:33

to America's. Thanks Mariela. Thank

44:35

you so much. Now

44:45

one last thing before we go. We've got

44:47

just over nine months until Americans go to

44:49

the polls. The race for the White House

44:51

is already well underway. It's going to get

44:54

really, really busy. So if you want to try

44:56

and keep track of what actually matters in the

44:58

race and why, the BBC is launching a newsletter

45:00

to keep you informed and who else would

45:02

be the author of such a newsletter

45:04

other than our very own Anthony Zertner?

45:06

Exactly. If you're sitting here listening to

45:08

me on America's to say, I really

45:11

want to have Anthony's words sent directly

45:13

to my email inbox, this is your

45:15

chance. Each week I'm going to be

45:17

offering relatively briefly my takeaways

45:19

on what is important in the US presidential

45:21

campaign for that week. But to filter out

45:23

and what to focus on, not just what's

45:25

going on here in the United States, but

45:28

what happens here in the United States, how

45:30

it impacts the entire world because the US

45:32

presidential election really is a global

45:34

news story as well. I'm also

45:36

going to be plucking articles that

45:38

are written by my colleagues, including

45:40

you Sarah at our first issue

45:43

this week to focus on so

45:45

that they have further reading to

45:47

learn more about this campaign and

45:49

the issues behind it. Now, politics

45:51

can be serious business. It

45:53

can also be somewhat fun. And I'm going to

45:55

try to make this a fun email as well,

45:58

not necessarily always talking about Taylor Swift, but. She

46:01

is mentioned actually in this initial newsletter that

46:03

goes out this week. So can I get

46:05

a little Taylor Swift bit where I get

46:07

to contribute some Swissy news each week? Our

46:10

special Taylor Swift correspondent, absolutely. I think that we

46:12

could make that happen. But I'm

46:14

also going to be answering reader questions

46:17

just like Mark from Dublin, but in

46:19

text form. And you

46:21

can write to me and

46:23

I'll be reviewing this inbox

46:26

and hopefully get into your

46:28

questions. The email address is

46:30

uselectionunspun at bbc.co.uk. And

46:35

you can find the link to sign

46:37

up to the newsletter in the description

46:39

of this program on BBC Sound. If

46:41

you prefer the spoken word, you can

46:43

always send your questions to America by

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WhatsApping us on plus four four three

46:48

three zero one two three nine four

46:50

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46:52

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46:54

of course you can hear America first

46:56

and in full as a podcast on

46:59

BBC Sounds. See you all later. Bye.

47:02

America from BBC News.

47:06

Thanks for listening to America from

47:08

BBC News. You can subscribe to

47:10

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47:12

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