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0:12

This is going to be a special

0:14

brief edition, but heartfelt edition of the

0:17

podcast because we've heard the news that

0:19

OJ Simpson has died. There

0:22

is plenty to talk about when it comes to

0:24

OJ Simpson and also not just about

0:26

him as a man, but as a kind of cultural feature

0:29

of American life in recent

0:31

decades. Plus the fact, Anthony,

0:33

you were there when all

0:35

of the trial and the stuff that

0:37

happened around him was going on. Yeah,

0:40

I was in Los Angeles. I was just at

0:42

a college kid and I was there to witness

0:44

the spectacle of it all. It was truly a

0:47

remarkable time to be an

0:49

American and a remarkable time to be someone living

0:51

in Los Angeles. Yeah, and that famous line, if

0:53

it doesn't fit, you must acquit. So

0:55

much to talk about. Welcome to this special

0:58

edition of America. America.

1:02

America. From BBC News. Let

1:05

me start off with two words. May in America.

1:07

I'm not running for santa here. I'm running for

1:09

president. I did everything right and

1:11

they indicted me. I can chew and walk on

1:14

at the same time. There is

1:16

no indication of aliens or

1:18

extraterrestrial activity. We will fight

1:20

the woke in education. We will fight the woke

1:22

in the businesses. We will

1:24

never ever surrender to the woke

1:26

mob. Nobody should have to go to jail for

1:28

smoking weed. Brian, why

1:30

aren't you guys tired of covering this? It's

1:40

Justin in the worldwide headquarters of America's in

1:42

London, England. And it's Anthony

1:44

in the America headquarters of America's

1:46

in Washington, D.C. And

1:48

it's Marianna, a.k.a. misinformation, also in

1:51

the worldwide headquarters with Justin. Right.

1:53

A special edition to talk about the former

1:56

American footballer, but also so much more. O.J.

1:58

Simpson, who's a former American footballer. Died

2:00

at the age of seventy six

2:02

according to reports the we have

2:04

received while we've been sitting in

2:06

the studio doing another edition of

2:08

America's that you will be able

2:10

to hear later. My first thought

2:12

I suppose I live across to

2:14

maximize his am and you've heard

2:17

of him that that none of

2:19

this really was stuff that happened

2:21

while you were shall we say

2:23

and adults. Yes will lead that

2:25

when the child little unfolding I was not

2:27

born access it was in nineteen ninety five

2:29

out of the ever fired born yet and

2:32

I feel like I've I've learnt piloted also

2:34

as the is because it's kind of continued

2:36

to be the so math says moment in

2:38

American history and identity. Was it how watching.

2:41

And. Consuming it. Perhaps in the same way that you were

2:43

just and or certainly the way that you were Anthony because

2:45

you have a seat in the States As a. Time.

2:47

right? You have to remember First said that

2:49

O J. Simpson was a celebrity before. The.

2:52

Car Chase Before the trial. He was

2:54

a football star. He won the Heisman

2:56

Trophy. he played professional football for the

2:58

Buffalo Bills said sorts of records. He

3:01

also was a movie star. He was

3:03

in the Naked Gun movies which are

3:05

us kind of a funny mad Nepalese

3:07

comedy series. He did television commercials for

3:10

Hurts where he was running through the

3:12

airport daring someone's bags to get them

3:14

to their rental car agency. Ah. and

3:16

then there was a course the murder

3:19

of his his ex wife Nicole Brown

3:21

Simpson. Ah and. The the the glare

3:23

of the spotlight the suspicion focused on

3:25

him. And there was a car chase

3:28

and Ninety Ninety Four when he was

3:30

arrested by California police. but he's fled

3:32

through the highways of Los Angeles were

3:34

Dicks hours at a time, all plane

3:37

out on national television with helicopter showing

3:39

where on Doc the Los Angeles Highways

3:41

he was been and this long string

3:43

of police cars chasing them. That was

3:46

Nineteen Eighty Four. And then there was

3:48

a trial and Ninety Ninety Five as

3:50

you mentioned which became must see. Tv

3:52

for Americans across the country

3:55

became coffee I'd discussion boy,

3:57

watercooler discussion for American. The

4:00

all ranges on walks of life. It was

4:02

a remarkable time to live through. Cel.

4:11

Mai to go on My older.

4:15

Sister. That they

4:17

were fine record same now that I

4:19

did not prove that would not have

4:21

committed this. Crime or for

4:24

kids to that he sees

4:26

you. As we're in

4:28

his head how much more high

4:30

brow we chatted. About that before have

4:32

we and the focused and pixels? the

4:34

way that trials in the age of

4:36

social media can get the public because

4:38

he's very clear so we know we

4:40

we take him out. Kind of. Various

4:42

ones have unfolded in recent years. Less

4:45

people are hit on them and sharing

4:47

lots about them because they're able to

4:49

pay slips on line by Find it

4:51

quite interesting that this was well before

4:53

that was possible. This. Is like on

4:55

the telly. Yeah. The. I

4:57

was Kp a cable television affair and

4:59

I lived in Los Angeles at the

5:01

time. I worked in an office building

5:03

near the airport and we all during

5:05

lunchtime sat around in the conference room

5:07

and had a little T V with

5:09

the trial on that we ate our

5:11

lunch and watched the trial and then

5:13

didn't watch it been discussed on the

5:15

evening news you'd be watch have been

5:17

discussed on late night television the Jay

5:19

Leno's show. They had the dancy Guidos

5:21

which worse than the presiding judge Lands

5:23

Edo. They had a series of people

5:25

dressed up like Lance. Edo and would

5:28

dance around. And the jokes were

5:30

all about what was going on

5:32

the trial. I mean, it was.

5:34

It is A D. You can't

5:36

overstate how much of an impact

5:38

it had on American culture at

5:40

the time. Yeah, And that lawyer

5:42

Johnny Cochrane who became and sell

5:44

such a celebrity. And the

5:46

and the moment when he was in

5:48

the end acquitted. And.

5:50

so many americans feeling that that in

5:52

itself was an outrage and and leading

5:55

to move sorts of added discussions plus

5:57

of course anthony the flatly you can

5:59

say so much more in America about

6:01

a court case both before and after

6:03

that we're allowed to here. And

6:06

we were kind of introduced as Brits to the Wild

6:09

West way in which you can literally speculate

6:11

as people were about whether he was guilty

6:13

or not on television before that verdict. Absolutely.

6:16

Everyone had an opinion. Everyone had a

6:18

view. There were people talking heads, legal

6:21

talking heads, who entire career was made

6:23

based on this one trial. You mentioned

6:25

Johnny Cochran, but there was a whole

6:27

slew of people on court TV and

6:30

on the evening newscasts that were brought

6:33

on as legal experts and launched this

6:35

whole idea of kind of the big

6:37

televised trial. We've had many since then

6:39

being a spectacle where people watch not

6:41

just because it was newsworthy

6:44

but because it was entertainment.

6:48

And this is a political podcast. We talk

6:50

about politics here. And I should point out

6:52

also that there was, as you mentioned, a

6:54

very real political element to this, a race

6:56

element to this. I mentioned I

6:58

would watch this with my coworkers up

7:00

on the eighth floor of an office

7:02

building in Los Angeles. And we all

7:04

agreed O.J. Simpson was guilty beyond a

7:07

shadow of a doubt. He definitely

7:09

did it. He had the audio

7:11

tapes of him raging against his

7:13

ex-wife and slamming on the door

7:15

to break into her apartment

7:18

at one point while she was calling

7:20

911. And this was

7:22

evidence that he had this kind of

7:24

seething rage that would lead conceivably to

7:27

murder. But then I would walk downstairs

7:29

and I'd talk to the person at the front

7:31

door, the security guard who was black, and

7:33

he was convinced O.J. didn't do it. And

7:36

when you talk to people, black

7:38

people in Los Angeles who had a very

7:41

strong suspicion of the police, remember

7:43

Rodney King and the race riots there and

7:45

the police abuse and the long history

7:47

of the Los Angeles Police

7:49

Department and race issues there,

7:52

they thought O.J. Simpson was innocent and

7:54

the jury in that case who was

7:57

comprised of mostly black women, I think

7:59

maybe entirely of black women, they

8:01

acquitted and after the fact they said

8:03

that all this evidence that we thought

8:06

was compelling was simply not enough to

8:08

prove guilt. It was a

8:10

stark illustration of how different ways

8:14

that white Americans and black

8:16

Americans see criminal justice in this

8:18

country and of course we've seen that play

8:20

out in the ensuing years. He

8:23

didn't exactly live happily ever after though, did he Anthony?

8:26

He was pretty troubled by it all,

8:28

right until that. I

8:32

don't know if he was personally troubled. He did

8:34

try to write an autobiography

8:37

that was tentatively titled If I Did It, This is

8:39

How I Would Have Done It and that

8:42

caused an uproar because people thought

8:44

it was essentially admitting his guilt

8:46

but they didn't want him to

8:48

make money off it. And

8:54

then the Goldman family who was the other

8:56

person murdered, a waiter who was apparently just

8:58

coming over to Nicole Brown Simpson's house and

9:00

was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

9:03

Both he and Nicole Brown Simpson, Ron Goldman

9:05

had his, I think Ron Goldman was that

9:07

to that, but Goldman had his throat

9:10

slashed along with Nicole Brown Simpson

9:12

by the

9:14

accused O.J. Simpson. They

9:17

filed a civil suit against him which

9:19

took place, the trial took place in

9:22

a Santa Monica court rather than a

9:24

Los Angeles court in downtown Los Angeles.

9:26

The jury was mostly white, didn't have

9:29

to have a unanimous

9:31

verdict in that case to find

9:33

responsibility. And

9:35

he was held responsible for those

9:37

two murders and ended up having

9:40

to pay millions of dollars to

9:42

the Goldman family. That essentially bankrupted

9:44

him. He was later

9:47

sent to prison for breaking in

9:49

and stealing back one of

9:51

his Heisman trophies or his Heisman trophy. And

9:54

so he spent some time in prison for

9:56

that. And yeah, he

9:59

was a troubled. man after that

10:01

and he never was able to get out

10:03

from the shadow of the murder and you

10:05

know, I suppose, you know for a lot

10:07

of people rightfully so they would say. Mariana,

10:10

did you watch the, it

10:12

was a documentary series that came out recently? That

10:14

was like, Yes, that's how I, that's basically

10:17

where if I'm honest my kind of understanding

10:19

of all of this comes from watching that and

10:22

seeing it unfold and kind of thinking, oh wow.

10:24

Yeah. Because I guess also now

10:26

in the age of social media, you know, we

10:28

talk about kind of frenzies around trials, but they're

10:30

often, while

10:33

quite a lot of people might be seeing them, there's

10:35

a kind of committed minority of people who are actively

10:38

engaged with them. Whereas I guess there's a big difference

10:40

when almost the entire nation, if not the world, is

10:42

all looking at the same thing. I mean the ability

10:44

to kind of reach like millions and millions of people

10:46

was, was massive at that time and, one

10:50

thing that has continued to kind of circulate on social

10:52

media are because, you know, I guess a lot of

10:54

young people today hearing this news might

10:56

not know as much about OJ Simpson or haven't kind

10:58

of, you know, didn't live through the trial in quite

11:00

the same way. But there are

11:03

some clips, one, which

11:05

is kind of quite shocking, where OJ

11:07

Simpson sort of jokes about kind of murdering

11:09

the interviewer and who he's speaking to in

11:12

a kind of interview clip that's

11:14

continued to sort of recirculate

11:16

and reach new audiences. Yeah,

11:18

you know, I've seen some on social media

11:20

already some of their comedy routines from back

11:22

in, in the 90s, making

11:25

fun of OJ Simpson or making fun of the

11:27

trial. You know, there was Saturday at Live, had

11:29

a regular bit where they were, they were poking

11:33

fun at OJ Simpson on their, on

11:35

their mock news program. So

11:37

I think we'll see a lot of that, a

11:39

lot of kind of dredging up old

11:42

memories and the old

11:44

archives to remind everyone, people who were alive

11:46

back then, but also people who weren't exposed

11:48

to all of this about what that was

11:50

like at that time. It was very much

11:52

of the 1990s and it was very much

11:55

one of those like, where were you during

11:57

the car chase? I remember I was sitting

11:59

home. I had just graduated from college.

12:01

I was in Arlington, Virginia watching

12:03

a basketball game and NBA finals.

12:05

And all of a sudden it

12:07

cut in and we were all

12:09

trans-fic-city there looking at the television,

12:11

watching live TV as this white

12:13

suburban or this white, what was

12:15

it, a Bronco, yeah, white

12:18

Bronco, driving

12:21

down the 405 and people waving. And

12:23

I moved to Los Angeles shortly thereafter

12:26

and I had friends who made the

12:28

trip from their house out to overpasses

12:30

on the 405 with their little handheld

12:32

video cameras recording themselves

12:34

and they were cheering as

12:37

OJ Simpson went driving down the freeway,

12:39

an empty freeway followed by a parade

12:41

of dozens of police vehicles. I mean

12:44

it was just such an insane moment

12:46

but it was one of those moments

12:48

that really unites the entire

12:50

country. Everyone was doing this, everyone was

12:52

watching this, everyone remembered where they were.

12:55

And the spectacle of it I think,

12:58

a lot of people are going to now remember it and

13:00

there's gonna be a lot of kind of

13:02

reminiscence and rehashing of what those

13:05

moments were like. Had a huge impact in Britain

13:07

too because of the immediacy of it and the

13:09

weirdness of it to our eyes because of the

13:11

whole court process and all the rest. I remember

13:13

being at a Labour Party conference, this is when

13:16

Tony Blair was in his palm, and

13:18

Alastair Campbell, his press person

13:21

and principal advisor

13:25

being very angry because the BBC was either

13:27

intending to or did and I can't remember

13:29

which it was actually and not just the

13:31

BBC or the broadcast as well. We're gonna

13:33

run with OJ Simpson rather than with Tony

13:35

Blair's speech and it was kind of

13:37

one of those kind of classic TV moments where there

13:40

was something really gripping from abroad

13:42

but actually in British terms not

13:45

terribly important but it caught people's

13:47

attention and it

13:49

did, OJ Simpson is not

13:51

just an American phenomenon, it

13:54

really did mean something to people and caught

13:56

people's attention right around the world

13:58

I suppose and that ability. of celebrity,

14:01

even in the very, very

14:03

much pre-internet days, that

14:05

that ability of something just to take off

14:07

in people's minds was still there.

14:10

I wonder as well Anthony, maybe this is

14:12

a bit of a stretch, but you know

14:14

you described that the court and the outrage

14:16

many people, particularly white people, felt at the

14:18

not guilty verdict. I

14:20

wonder now when you look at Trump and

14:22

what people will be saying about the various

14:25

cases that he faces,

14:27

and indeed the one that he probably

14:29

will actually appear in court in and

14:31

be either convicted or acquitted in before

14:34

the election, whether people are going to look

14:37

back at OJ Simpson and look back at other

14:39

cases and say, you know what, it is all

14:41

about the jury and justice itself

14:44

can be swayed by this, that, or

14:46

the other, and that's been the

14:49

case for Donald Trump as well. It is, you

14:51

know, justice is not this kind of thing, is

14:53

it, that exists outside of all of us? Right,

14:55

and there was the view after

14:58

that OJ Simpson trial, OJ Simpson

15:00

had this dream team of lawyers,

15:03

and I think a lot of

15:05

people saw the evidence and they

15:07

saw the acquittal, and they saw

15:09

that as proof that money can

15:11

buy you justice, or money can

15:13

buy your way out of a

15:16

criminal reckoning, and I

15:18

think that did sow some seeds of

15:21

distrust in the criminal justice system. I

15:23

will remember, I was there in

15:26

LA during the trial, and on the

15:28

day that the verdict was being announced,

15:30

the entire city stood still. There were

15:33

police everywhere because they had

15:35

remembered what happened with Rodney King riots. They

15:37

were afraid that if OJ Simpson were found

15:39

guilty because of this racial divide and opinions

15:42

on the case, that there would be demonstrations

15:44

in the street. There would be riots again.

15:46

So I drove to work and it was

15:48

like a ghost town in

15:52

Los Angeles. There were police everywhere. Everyone

15:54

was on pins and needles. It

15:56

was one of these moments where

15:58

everyone was poised for something

16:00

to happen and then he was found

16:03

not guilty of course and and the

16:05

shock from the people who watched and

16:07

believe he was guilty with palpable and

16:09

and the celebration from from people who

16:12

thought he was innocent were also pretty

16:14

remarkable it was it

16:16

was one of these moments where all of a sudden

16:18

justice was not blind it

16:21

was very much aware and and it was

16:23

in the eye of the beholder your uh...

16:25

since then would you please stand and face

16:27

the jury superior

16:33

court of california county of los angeles in

16:35

the matter of the people of the state

16:37

of california versus or not going to think

16:39

that they can be a zero nine seven

16:41

to one one we the

16:43

jury in the above entitled action by the

16:46

defendant or a job or involved in simpson

16:48

not guilty of the kind of murder in

16:50

violation of political one eighty seven

16:53

a a felony upon the cold brown since

16:55

then a human being as charging count one

16:57

of the information to

17:04

quote the state of california county of

17:06

los angeles in the matter of the

17:08

people of the people of california versus

17:10

or involved in simpson we the jury

17:12

in the above entitled action from the

17:14

defendant or involved in simpson not guilty

17:16

of the crime of murder in violation

17:18

of penal code section one eighty seven

17:20

a a felony upon ronald lyle goldman

17:22

a human being of traction can't do

17:24

the information we

17:27

the jury in the above entitled action for

17:29

the final special circumstance that the defendant or

17:31

felt james simpson as in this case been

17:33

convicted of at least one of

17:36

murder of the first degree and

17:38

one or more crimes of murder of the

17:40

first or second degree to be not true

17:43

fine second day of october

17:46

nineteen ninety five jr two thirty ladies and

17:48

gentlemen of the jury is this your verdict

17:50

they'll say you want to say you all

17:53

the right now

17:57

the america The

18:00

between his legs are listening to

18:02

America's from Bbc News. You can

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