0:00

This is the BBC. Users

0:30

don't even visit other leading job sites.

0:32

So start looking in the right place.

0:34

With LinkedIn, you can hire professionals like

0:37

a professional. Post your free job on

0:39

linkedin.com/people today. We

1:00

have just sat through the most dramatic week in Donald Trump's Hush Money trial.

1:23

The star witness, Stormy Daniels, the adult film star

1:25

who says she had sex with him back in

1:27

2006, and the one

1:29

he paid the hush money to, she was on the

1:31

stand for a day and a half. An

1:34

adult film star talking about sex in a

1:36

hotel room. I don't think you

1:38

can get any more salacious and engaging

1:40

than that. And we're going to dig

1:42

deep into her testimony and find out

1:44

why it was so dramatic that twice

1:47

Donald Trump's lawyers tried to

1:49

get a mistrial based on what she was saying.

1:52

I have to say Anthony, you know that we don't

1:54

get any notice of what witnesses are coming up when.

1:56

And it was early on Tuesday

1:58

morning that some rumours started going around the door. that

2:00

that was the day that Stormy Daniels was going to

2:02

take the stand. I was stuck in a hideous traffic

2:04

jam trying to get in from New York airport. My

2:07

phone was blowing up with messages saying, it's going

2:09

to be stormy, it's stormy today. And I was

2:11

just thinking, oh my God, I just hope I

2:13

can get to the court in time, which I

2:15

did, but only by the skin of my teeth.

2:17

That was the weather forecast for Tuesday morning in

2:19

New York City, right? Stormy with a chance of

2:22

testimony. Nice one. So

2:25

it's time to say welcome to

2:27

America's in the courtroom. It's Trump

2:29

trial week three. America,

2:34

America from BBC News, the first

2:36

ever criminal trial of a former

2:38

president of the United States. Trump

2:40

is facing 34 felony charges related

2:42

to so-called hush money payments to

2:44

porn star Stormy Daniels. How

2:46

do we know you're telling the truth? Because I have

2:49

no reason to lie. I'm in New York all the

2:51

time with the Biden trial, a

2:53

fake trial. Donald wants to have a few

2:55

tough days lately. I'm being forced to sit

2:57

for days on end. You might call it

3:00

stormy weather. They do it to try

3:02

and take your powers away. Hi,

3:10

it's Sarah Smith here. I'm still in New

3:12

York, in lower Manhattan, where that courthouse is

3:14

that's housing the Trump trial. Hi, it's Anthony.

3:17

I'm here in Washington, DC in the BBC

3:19

Studios. One of the things we're

3:21

going to do in today's episode is talk to

3:23

the court artist who's been drawing all those sketches

3:25

of Donald Trump and all the different witnesses in

3:27

the courtroom, which are really the only glimpse that

3:30

we get of how people are reacting to any

3:32

of the testimony in there. But first, of

3:34

course, we've got to talk about

3:36

the witness Stormy Daniels who took

3:38

to the stand. She was there

3:40

for nearly two whole days. And

3:43

this was pretty heady stuff. And

3:45

to help us get into this,

3:47

we have, once again, Kayla Epstein,

3:49

who is the BBC reporter

3:51

on the scene in the courthouse watching

3:53

all of this unfold before her eyes.

3:56

Kayla, it's great to have you here. All right. Well, hello,

3:58

everyone. I just walked out of the courthouse. You're

4:00

bringing us the breaking news because the court's just

4:02

packed up for the week, hasn't it Kayla? It

4:05

is just after one o'clock on Friday

4:07

afternoon and we're not going to get anything more

4:09

until next week now. No, we're not.

4:11

But we did start to foreshadow some of the

4:14

exciting things we could be getting next week in

4:16

just the last few minutes of court. We'll

4:18

get to that with you in a moment. And

4:20

I just want to say before we go through

4:23

what we've heard this week, any listeners, any American

4:25

actors who need a quick recap on what we've

4:27

heard already in previous weeks, and we'll go back

4:29

and listen to our previous two episodes

4:31

where we really get into the details

4:33

of the previous testimony. Today we're going

4:35

to concentrate on what we've heard this

4:37

week with the most dramatic witness yet.

4:40

What was the atmosphere like, Kayla, before we get

4:42

into the details of what Stormy Daniels had to

4:44

say? What was it like just seeing her being

4:46

there? Well, the first few moments before she walked

4:48

into the courtroom and we knew she

4:50

was coming were quite tense. On

4:53

Tuesday, the rumors started to spread early in

4:55

the day that Stormy Daniels was going to

4:57

be the witness and nobody really knew what

4:59

to expect. So when she walked

5:01

in, everyone still sort of held

5:03

their breath a little bit. And she looked a

5:05

lot different than we've seen her in other public

5:07

appearances. Normally she's got her

5:09

hair very done, this long blonde

5:12

hair flowing down in perfectly

5:14

manicured waves. We've seen her in other

5:16

court cases wearing a suit. She

5:18

usually looks quite glamorous when she appears

5:21

on talk shows, for example.

5:23

But in court, she dressed

5:25

very simply in flowing black clothes

5:27

or loose fitting. Her hair was up in

5:29

a clip. And it was a very different

5:31

Stormy Daniels we realized right away than

5:34

the one we'd seen before. And there must have

5:36

been some strategy to that. I assume that was

5:38

something that the prosecutors wanted her, the way they

5:40

wanted her to present herself. How was her demeanor

5:43

on this stand? How did she respond

5:45

to – let's start with the prosecution

5:47

questions. Did she seem to be

5:49

engaged? Did she

5:51

seem nervous like some of these other

5:53

witnesses have been? The first day

5:56

on the stand when the prosecution was questioning

5:58

her, things to be for her were not enough. Frank

6:00

went a little bit off the rails. Prosecutors

6:04

had to be very careful about what they

6:06

asked Stormy Daniels about her alleged sexual encounter

6:09

with Donald Trump. The judge had set some

6:11

pretty strict parameters over what details

6:13

could and couldn't be admitted. And

6:16

over and over again, we saw that

6:18

Stormy Daniels walked right up to that

6:20

line and in the defense's view, may have crossed that

6:22

line with some of the details. She

6:24

was speaking very quickly and at length

6:26

to a lot of the questions the

6:29

prosecutors were asking her, she was speaking,

6:31

you know, to my view, she seemed

6:33

a bit nervous as the

6:36

prosecutors began to walk her through what

6:38

she recounted of that first time

6:40

where she met Donald Trump. And

6:43

as we now all know from the reports

6:45

that have come out, some of the responses

6:47

she gave when prosecutors were

6:49

asking her to talk about her alleged

6:51

encounter were quite lurid, were quite

6:54

personal to the extent that the judge later said

6:56

that some of these things might have been better

6:58

left unsaid. So fundamentally at

7:01

the heart of this, Donald Trump denies that he

7:03

ever had sex with her. She says that they

7:05

did have this sexual encounter back in

7:07

2006 and it was

7:09

when she was shopping that story around that he

7:11

paid her the hush money. So I guess the

7:13

prosecution were trying to get her to tell quite

7:16

a lot of detail, wasn't it Kayla? What

7:19

happened, how she met him, how she got invited

7:21

for dinner, what happened when she went up to

7:23

his hotel suite, lots and lots of detail about

7:25

what the hotel suite looked like and things. That

7:27

was presumably to try and establish some kind of

7:29

credibility in the minds of the jury to try and

7:32

persuade them that this really happened? Yes.

7:34

I mean, this all goes to what the prosecutor

7:36

is saying was exactly that. They have to corroborate

7:38

her story. They have to do

7:40

that because Trump's team is saying that she's

7:43

lying and Trump has denied it. So

7:45

in their view, they have to establish that their witness is

7:47

the one telling the truth and let the jury decide. And

7:51

so we saw them asking her a lot

7:54

of questions about, you know, what

7:56

did the hotel room look like? You

7:58

know, what did Trump do next? What did you say? Remember that

8:00

Stormy Daniels has told this story several

8:02

times. She's told it in media

8:04

interviews. She has told it in her book.

8:07

And a lot of the details

8:09

were very similar, but Daniels definitely

8:12

seemed nervous and is telling. And

8:14

she sort of, this is not the first time she's

8:17

done it, but she also cast the encounter

8:20

not as a humorous one, but she spoke about

8:22

it in somewhat less comfortable terms.

8:24

She has always maintained that it was

8:26

consensual, but she definitely spoke about it

8:28

like it was something that

8:30

she said when she first saw him on the

8:32

bed that, I'm paraphrasing, but that she sort of

8:35

felt a little disoriented. And so

8:37

that was certainly a different element than

8:39

the jokes you hear on social media

8:41

about this story or the telling of

8:43

it when people are repeating the story

8:45

who are critics of Trump. Does

8:47

it matter if she's telling the truth or not? Isn't the alleged

8:49

crime here that Donald Trump paid her $130,000 to get her to

8:51

not talk about an

8:55

affair, whether it was a romantic liaison,

8:57

whether it was true or not, and

9:00

then fraudulently put it down in his

9:02

records as not being a campaign expense?

9:06

Why does her veracity, her truth

9:08

make a difference here? That's

9:10

absolutely true. And there are definitely questions as

9:13

to why prosecutors might have asked her

9:15

so many questions and asked her to go

9:17

into so much detail, because factually for this

9:19

case, it does not matter whether or not they

9:21

had sex. But her testimony

9:24

about the hush money payments is

9:26

important. Prosecutors also say

9:29

they want to establish the intent for why

9:31

Trump would want to bury a story like

9:33

this ahead of the election, the fact

9:35

that these details can be so damaging with voters going

9:37

to the polls in just a few short weeks. So

9:39

they were trying to establish an intent with this. But

9:42

yes, the only thing that really matters

9:44

here is the way that Michael Cohen was reimbursed

9:46

for paying her. That is what the charges stem

9:48

from. And the defence, when they got to

9:50

cross-examine Stormy Daniels, were quite aggressive.

9:52

I mean, it felt really quite

9:55

hostile. And they were accusing her

9:57

not only of lying and completely making up the

9:59

story. about the sexual encounter, but trying

10:01

to make the business about the money

10:03

all seem rather grubby as well, that

10:06

she was kind of greedy grasping. Why

10:08

do they want to paint her in such a

10:10

bad light? What difference does it make to the

10:13

case? You're right. This was a

10:15

very intense cross-examination to watch, and it played

10:17

out over the course of two days. And

10:20

the summary of the case that Trump's lawyer,

10:22

Susan necklace, was trying to present was that

10:25

Stormy Daniels was in it for the

10:27

money. She was motivated by money. She told the story so

10:29

she could make money and get famous. And

10:32

that goes to undercutting her credibility. It

10:34

goes to undercutting the motivations that Trump

10:37

had in the eyes of the prosecution to pay her off.

10:41

And the first day of the

10:43

cross-examination was quite intense and combative,

10:45

and Daniels was very defiant on

10:47

the stand. And there were some

10:49

heated exchanges between her and Trump's

10:52

defense attorney. The second day

10:54

of her testimony, Daniels came back and she

10:56

was kind of a different person. She

10:59

was answering her questions much more succinctly.

11:01

She was sticking to the topic at

11:03

hand. She was still maintaining her story. What

11:07

she said was the truth in her view. She

11:10

really tried to stand up under questioning from

11:12

Susan necklace, who went over all of the

11:16

details and all the allegations that had come out during

11:18

the prosecutor's questioning. She

11:21

went through item by item and tried to

11:23

get Daniels to contradict herself, tried

11:25

to find holes in Daniels' story, repeatedly

11:27

claimed in her questions that Daniels was

11:29

telling a different story today than she

11:31

had before. And Daniels

11:34

consistently maintained, no, like I said

11:36

this, this is what I've said

11:38

before. I didn't say that,

11:40

and really sort of stood firm. But what

11:42

necklace is trying to do is paint a

11:44

picture of Daniels as somebody who can't be trusted in

11:47

front of the jury. Therefore it undermines

11:49

everything else she might say about the

11:51

actual charges at the heart of this case. So

11:54

the defense strategy is to try

11:56

to torpedo Daniels and torpedo her

11:58

credibility. Is there a- risk, maybe

12:01

that they went too far, especially

12:03

in that first day, that they

12:05

made Daniels more sympathetic to the

12:07

jury or seemed too

12:09

aggressive. The jury has been very good at

12:11

maintaining a poker face. So it is

12:14

a little bit hard for me to tell exactly what

12:16

they were thinking. But there

12:19

are some legal commentators that have

12:21

said that some of Susan Neckliss'

12:23

questioning of Stormy Daniels might be

12:25

perceived as being overly aggressive. For

12:28

example, she kept returning

12:30

to this detail that Stormy Daniels said that she

12:33

was invited over for dinner by Trump, that she

12:35

went to have dinner with him, but they didn't

12:37

eat. Daniels was maintained that even

12:39

though she was invited for dinner, that

12:42

they didn't actually eat. Trump never ordered food,

12:44

for example. And Neckliss kept harping on this

12:46

definition of dinner. You said you had dinner,

12:48

but then you said you didn't eat and

12:50

trying to catch Daniels in inconsistency. And that

12:52

went on for quite some time

12:54

and was kind of convoluted and wasn't

12:57

leaving anywhere new. So that

12:59

was the moment where an attempt to undercut Daniels'

13:01

credibility might have backfired. But then we don't know

13:03

what's going through the jurors' minds. We don't know

13:06

what they're making of this whole situation. And

13:09

at the end of the day, they are going to have

13:11

to wait for themselves whether or not they believe Daniels and

13:13

whether or not they believe

13:15

the prosecution's case. Yeah, there's also

13:17

a weird moment where Neckliss talked about Stormy

13:20

Daniels being an adult film star and

13:22

that she would make up

13:24

stories about having sex. And so

13:27

wasn't this just another example of

13:29

that, using her background

13:31

as an adult entertainer against

13:34

her, which seems, in this day

13:36

and age, a little bit risky.

13:39

Right. And Daniels actually had perhaps

13:42

her punchiest response

13:44

to that line of questioning. When Neckliss asked

13:46

her, you're used to writing stories about sex.

13:48

You're used to making this up. She said,

13:50

no, oh, the sex in those films is

13:52

very real, just like what happened to me

13:54

in that room. There

13:57

was a bit of a fine. after

14:01

that response. And

14:03

so, you know, you're right. I think though, you know,

14:05

we don't really know where people stand in terms of

14:07

how they feel about the adult film industry,

14:09

but we know that Daniel is not ashamed of

14:11

her work. In fact, she speaks proudly of it.

14:13

She speaks proudly of her accomplishments as a director

14:16

and a writer as well as a performer. And,

14:18

you know, over and over again, we saw

14:21

the Trump team display her social media posts,

14:23

advertising appearances at clubs. And she was like,

14:25

that's my job, that's my work. And she

14:27

never at any point seemed like she was

14:30

ashamed of it or was willing to be

14:32

cowed. Now, as you said, Kayla, she's told

14:34

this story many, many times before Stormy Daniels

14:36

in interviews, she's written a book, you know,

14:38

we thought we knew all of the details,

14:40

although she did come up with a new

14:43

one when she told the court without being

14:45

asked that Donald Trump had not used a

14:47

condom during their sexual encounter. But although

14:49

she's told the story before, she's never told it

14:51

in the same room as Donald Trump. And

14:54

he was sitting there having to listen to all of

14:56

this. What was that like? It was a

14:58

really tense dynamic in the room. So when Stormy

15:00

Daniels walked in, she swept right behind the defense

15:02

table and didn't appear to look at him for

15:04

much of her first day of testimony. The only

15:06

time that we could really tell that she directed

15:09

her attention at him was when she was asked

15:11

to identify him in the courtroom and she pointed

15:13

at him and said he was wearing a blue

15:15

suit. She seemed

15:17

probably aware of his presence. She did appear

15:19

a little bit nervous at first, but

15:22

at the same time, you know, we really don't

15:24

know what was going through either of their heads.

15:27

So we know that Daniels posted

15:29

about testifying after she left court.

15:32

Trump is not allowed to talk about

15:34

her because of the gag order. So

15:36

we don't know what he thought of

15:38

her testimony, but he seemed very pleased

15:41

after he watched his defense attorney really

15:43

aggressively questioning her and questioning her credibility.

15:45

Right, he pumped his fists what he was

15:47

leaving. Well, when he was smiling, I

15:50

guess he had some supporters there. He had

15:52

Rick Scott, the senator from Florida, Republican senator

15:54

from Florida in the room. He had some

15:56

of his campaign aides. Did it

15:58

feel like he... was

16:00

happy with all the way this is turning

16:02

out? Does he feel a little more optimistic?

16:04

I mean, obviously you're judging it based on

16:07

just looking at him, but was his body

16:09

language a little different? So you're

16:11

right that all I can read is his

16:13

body language, but he did seem like he

16:15

was in slightly better spirits after his defense

16:17

attorney relentlessly attacked Stormy Daniels

16:19

and her credibility. I do think that

16:22

that was one of the biggest entourages

16:24

we've seen with Trump,

16:26

and it did seem like he was

16:28

trying to make a show of strength,

16:30

you know, having a US senator sitting

16:32

with him, having, you know, a whole

16:34

team of lawyers with him. You know,

16:37

it sometimes seems like more and

16:39

more people walk into the courtroom behind Trump every day

16:41

that goes by. Today was a little

16:43

bit quieter. We didn't have too many

16:45

personalities, but it definitely felt

16:47

like on Thursday, like he showed up ready

16:50

to fight. And there was a point,

16:52

Caleb, where the judge told off

16:54

some of Trump's defense team because he

16:56

had been muttering and swearing, and he

16:58

said, you know, they had to control

17:01

their client. He wasn't allowed to make

17:03

those kind of outbursts when people were

17:05

giving their testimony because he reacted quite

17:07

strongly, something Stormy Daniels said. Yes,

17:10

the judge pulled his lawyer aside. He didn't

17:12

call Trump out in court, and other judges

17:14

have done that in the past. They have

17:16

called Trump out in the middle of the

17:18

courtroom. Justice Michonne decided to call his lawyers

17:20

up to the bench, and basically say, I

17:22

can hear him talking. He can't do that.

17:24

And it was a very delicate but firm

17:26

way to handle the situation that

17:28

is having somebody as outspoken as Donald

17:30

Trump in the courtroom. But he was,

17:32

he seemed quite engaged throughout a lot

17:35

of it. He was definitely like shifting

17:37

in his seat as his defense attorney

17:39

was taking on Daniels on the stand.

17:41

So he did seem like he was very engaged in what was happening.

17:44

So we talked about how this may not, her

17:46

testimony may not be pivotal to the case necessarily,

17:49

that the crime is something very

17:51

different than whether Donald Trump slept with Stormy

17:53

Daniels. But do you think any of this

17:55

testimony over the past couple days with Stormy

17:57

Daniels, do you think it matters? matters

18:00

in the courtroom? Do you think it matters

18:03

larger on how the American

18:05

public will look at Donald Trump? The

18:07

things that really mattered were the

18:09

events that took place years after

18:11

that alleged encounter when Stormy Daniels

18:13

was receiving a payout from

18:16

Donald Trump and also was signing

18:18

onto non-disclosure agreements that said

18:20

she couldn't talk about her

18:22

story. Otherwise, she would have paid penalties and agreed to a

18:25

certain set of facts. And these are

18:27

documents that we had seen before from

18:29

her ex-attorney, Keith Schiller, who negotiated the

18:31

deal with Michael Cohen.

18:35

And so that's the stuff that's really important,

18:37

you know, showing that Daniels, she

18:39

testified, she didn't quite understand what she was

18:41

signing, that she was just signing the things

18:44

that her lawyer gave her. And her

18:46

lawyer previously testified he had very craftily

18:48

written those statements of denial when

18:50

the deal became public to not technically

18:52

be lying, to

18:55

definitely, you know, give a

18:57

strong appearance of a denial. So

18:59

hearing her side of the story for

19:01

the negotiations that led to that payment,

19:03

her understanding of where it might have been

19:06

coming from, her understanding of the role that

19:08

she played was important. Is it the most

19:10

crucial evidence? No, we actually might

19:12

be getting that next week. But

19:14

a lot of what Daniels said about the

19:16

relevant documents had actually like already been

19:18

testified to, had already been in evidence, so

19:21

she was adding a new layer to the

19:23

story. The prosecutors

19:25

seem to have a trick of

19:27

you get the more blockbuster witnesses, and then

19:29

they bring in some of the, well, maybe

19:32

not less important, but certainly less exciting, more

19:34

technical witnesses. And a lot of what's been

19:36

heard today, Kayla has been about Donald Trump

19:38

writing checks, haven't it? And what was it

19:40

habits he had? Did he pay a lot

19:43

of attention to his finances? Would he just

19:45

sign a check without looking at it? And

19:47

although it sounds quite pernickety and tedious, that

19:49

could be much, much more important than this

19:51

whole business about whether or not he ever

19:53

did have sex with Stormy Daniels. Right.

19:56

And actually, Stormy Daniels was preceded

19:58

by probably the most... polar opposite

20:00

witness you could get, which is a book publisher, who

20:04

is reading aloud passages where Donald Trump

20:06

spoke about from his own

20:08

books, speaking about keeping an eye on his

20:10

checks and things like that. And there's a

20:12

purpose to these somewhat more tedious witnesses, they're

20:14

used to introduce evidence into the record that

20:16

is gonna be important later on. But

20:18

we did hear, we heard from another witness

20:21

this week, Madeline Westerhout, who was an aide

20:23

at the White House who would sit

20:25

right outside the Oval Office, basically act as

20:27

like a high level personal assistant to Trump,

20:30

and she talked a lot about how

20:32

his personal checks were sent from New

20:34

York City to Washington for him to

20:36

sign while he was president. She added

20:38

another link to the chain that the

20:40

prosecutors are alleging occurred where checks were

20:42

sent to Donald Trump that were reimbursing

20:44

Michael Cohen for paying off Stormy Daniels,

20:46

and he signed them, and he sent

20:48

them back. And prosecutors wanna show in

20:50

pen that Trump knew what he was

20:52

doing, he knew what he was signing,

20:54

and that this goes to show that

20:56

therefore in their mind, he was aware

20:58

of what was going on. Westerhout

21:01

was called to help fill in a little bit

21:03

about how the checks got to the White House,

21:05

to his desk to sign. She wasn't necessarily the

21:07

most helpful witness for them though, she did say

21:09

that she only had limited knowledge of

21:11

what was in those envelopes. She saw

21:13

Trump sign hundreds of documents, she told

21:16

the defense team she saw Trump sign

21:18

checks without reviewing them closely. So

21:20

she definitely helped establish what

21:22

the prosecution thinks is the sort of

21:24

paper trail to Trump, but

21:26

she didn't necessarily like give them the

21:28

most absolute solid evidence. And

21:31

that's kind of the remarkable thing about all of

21:33

this. Here's the president of the United States, and

21:35

he's getting an envelope full of

21:37

unsigned checks sent to him from his New

21:39

York business for him to sign, and he's

21:41

looking over the ones that are bigger and

21:43

questioning them. I've heard pointed out

21:46

before in the past that one of the

21:48

reasons why Donald Trump is in this whole

21:50

mess is because he's such a micromanager and

21:52

has always been, and he's such a tightwad

21:54

on his money that if he

21:56

were more of a delegating kind of executive

21:58

of his private company. where he had

22:01

people who were signing these checks and reviewing

22:03

the invoices and all that. Prosecutors wouldn't have

22:05

the evidence to be able to try to

22:07

draw this line from the checks and the

22:09

hush money payments directly to the Oval Office

22:11

and Donald Trump that they have been able

22:14

to do. And the defense is

22:16

really trying to distance the jury from that

22:18

perception. They're trying to insinuate that others were

22:20

sort of doing this of their

22:22

own volition. There are some other people in the

22:24

chain that were involved as well that they're sort of

22:26

trying to distance Trump from. But yes,

22:28

you're right. Trump was getting his

22:30

personal checks for his personal expenses

22:33

sent to Washington and Cohen was paid

22:35

out of Trump's personal account for some of

22:37

these reimbursements. And as you

22:40

said, if Trump was paying attention that

22:42

closely as the prosecutors are alleging, then

22:44

this paper trail will be part of

22:46

proving their case if it is successful.

22:48

And of course, next week we expect

22:50

that Michael Cohen will take the stand

22:53

who will be definitely the prosecution's most

22:55

important witness. So we will

22:57

dissect everything that we hear from him in

22:59

next week's episode. In the meantime,

23:01

Kayla, thank you so much for joining us and bringing us what

23:04

it's like right there inside the courtroom. I'm going

23:06

to try and get in myself at some point

23:09

next week. So I'll see you there. I'll see

23:11

you there. As always, great talking to you, Kayla.

23:13

Really fascinating stuff. Thanks so much. Goodbye.

23:15

Bye. Bye, Kayla. So

23:27

a little earlier, I was able to

23:29

speak to Jane Rosenberg. She is one

23:31

of the busiest people in that courtroom

23:33

because she's the artist who does the

23:35

sketches of Donald Trump, his legal team

23:37

and the witnesses giving the evidence that

23:39

gives us a glimpse into what it's

23:41

like inside there because we're not allowed

23:43

any TV cameras in. So she's an

23:45

important part of communicating this trial. And

23:47

here's what she had to say. I am as close as I

23:50

could be, I guess. They have two rows in

23:52

the front for like the district attorney's office

23:54

and two rows on the other side

23:56

for secret service and some people. So

23:58

I'm in the third. grow but

24:00

it's not that far away so I

24:03

get the best I can. And

24:06

so you're mostly watching his facial expressions all the

24:08

time, his body language, just trying to work

24:10

out not just what he's looking like so you

24:13

can draw but maybe what he's feeling as well.

24:15

What have you intuited from what's going on inside

24:17

his head? I

24:19

don't know what's going on his head but he doesn't

24:22

look happy to be there. I'm sure he'd rather be

24:24

in Mar-a-Lago. He tends to look

24:26

a little like grumpy and pouty

24:28

all the time. It's

24:30

basically a facial expression which he has most

24:32

of the time. He occasionally

24:35

will smile but rare and

24:37

he looks a little aggravated with everything. What

24:40

was it like when Stormy Daniels took the stand? What

24:42

did he look like then? He

24:45

did pay attention to Stormy Daniels' testimony

24:47

which he didn't have his

24:49

eyes closed when she walked. He often has his

24:51

eyes closed when he's in the courtroom and

24:54

he happened to be very alert

24:56

when Stormy walked in the room. He

24:58

was looking at her and when she sat down he

25:00

was looking at her and then

25:02

I don't know what he was looking at but

25:04

he had his eyes open most of the time which he

25:07

doesn't usually have so he's paying attention. He

25:10

does shake his head occasionally

25:12

mutters things which I cannot hear from where

25:15

I'm sitting but he

25:17

looks a little like he's

25:19

discussing with everything. The

25:22

images you're drawing in there are tremendously important for

25:24

all of us to try and understand what it

25:26

looks like inside the courtroom because cameras aren't allowed

25:28

in there, microphones aren't allowed in there, small number

25:30

of journalists get into it and observe. What's

25:33

it like trying to capture the likeness

25:35

of Donald Trump? Because

25:37

he's probably the most famous man in the world

25:39

and you've got to try and express

25:42

that very quickly I imagine.

25:44

Yes, it's a lot of pressure

25:46

to do this job. I have

25:48

to provide these sketches for the world to see. I

25:52

don't always nail it. I try my

25:54

best. I have tremendous pressure deadlines, 24-hour

25:56

news cycle. I

25:58

have to get these sketches right out. there as

26:00

soon as they're done. You've been under this pressure

26:02

before when you've had to cover other celebrities

26:04

who've been in court and draw their

26:06

likeness for people who all think they know

26:09

what this person looks like. But Donald Trump,

26:11

though, I assume it's a slightly different experience

26:13

because of the passionate support he engenders among

26:16

his MAGA crowd. Have you had any

26:18

interactions with him? Oh,

26:20

yeah. I have been through this before. Celebrities

26:22

are hard to draw and the world thinks

26:24

they know what they look like when they're

26:26

sitting in a courtroom and they're sitting in

26:28

harsh lighting and they don't always look glamorous

26:31

when they're there. But Trump does

26:34

have a base and they do send

26:36

me emails. Sometimes they find

26:38

me. I don't do social media. I

26:40

avoid it. I don't do Twitter, Instagram,

26:42

TikTok, anything. I just don't want to

26:44

hear for it. They find my email.

26:47

And just this morning, I got a couple of

26:49

very weird horrific emails from his

26:51

base. One of them was so weird that I

26:54

didn't even finish. I kind of scrolled

26:56

the skin through it. It just

26:59

was nasty. The

27:01

one thing I can't let you go without asking you

27:03

is I mean, a lot of people

27:06

have said they thought Donald Trump

27:08

falling asleep. You mentioned that he often closes his

27:10

eyes. Do you think at any point he had

27:12

nodded off? I actually thought he

27:14

did it in the beginning. I

27:17

thought he like maybe day two or

27:19

three. I was watching in the

27:21

overflow room and I had a front view and I

27:24

sketched him with his eyes closed. And to me,

27:26

he sort of looked like he was asleep that

27:28

day. He did not look asleep in the other

27:30

days. He looks because he would

27:32

snap to attention and suddenly when he wanted

27:35

to pay attention, I don't know

27:37

what he's doing. Maybe he's just resting

27:39

his eyes. Maybe his eyes are sensitive to

27:41

the light. Maybe he's meditating. Maybe he just

27:43

can't bear to look at what's going on

27:45

around him. I don't know. I don't know

27:47

what's going on in his head. And

27:50

I really don't know 100 percent if he's

27:52

asleep. He claimed he wasn't in it. He

27:54

claimed it was fake news, but sort

27:57

of looked like it to me. I drew him the

27:59

way I saw him. He often

28:01

has his eyes closed most of the day. However,

28:04

not with storming, he's had his eyes open

28:06

a lot, a lot more than usual. Fascinating.

28:09

Well, Jane, you've got another couple of weeks

28:11

of this at least, so best of luck

28:13

with it all. And we

28:15

will enjoy looking at your images of what's going

28:17

on inside. Thank you. That

28:20

was a fascinating interview. And she really

28:23

does have a unique perspective on these

28:25

trial proceedings. I imagine you have to

28:27

have pretty thick skin to get through

28:29

that job and even thicker skin when

28:31

the subject of your art is the

28:33

former president of the United States. Yeah,

28:36

sadly, it's not surprising. This is being attacked

28:38

by some of Donald Trump's supporters who

28:40

don't think she's making him look handsome

28:42

enough. And it must be really, really

28:44

hard. When you're dealing with famous people, everybody

28:47

thinks they know what they look like.

28:49

And she's there capturing expressions and body

28:51

language as much as facial features. So yeah,

28:53

it's tough work. Photographers, and today this

28:55

is bad news happened this week, have

28:57

been banned from the courtroom. What

28:59

had been happening was snappers, still photographers, were allowed

29:01

in for the first few minutes. They

29:04

could take some pictures of Donald Trump sat

29:06

at the table with his lawyers around him and

29:08

then they were ushered out again. One

29:10

of them snuck a photograph as they

29:12

were walking past from a part of the court

29:14

they're not allowed to take pictures from. And they've

29:16

all been banned by the judge as a result.

29:19

This is not good news for people who are

29:21

working in television. So yeah, we're going to need

29:23

Jane Rosenberg more than ever. This is

29:25

why we can't have nice things. One person ruins it for

29:27

all of us. So

29:38

there's no doubt that this was a big and

29:40

important week in this Trump trial.

29:43

Next week could be even more important.

29:46

So we'll be publishing another episode in

29:48

our Trump trial series next week. And

29:50

if you want to get in touch

29:52

with us, the traditional methods

29:54

are still available. That's WhatsApp plus

29:56

44-330-123. on

30:02

email americast

30:04

at bbc.co.uk

30:07

on social media with hashtag americast

30:09

at my personal favorite discord. A

30:12

link will be in the description of

30:14

this podcast and of course you can

30:16

hear americast first and in full as

30:18

a podcast on bbc soon. See

30:20

you all later. America

30:23

from bbc news. Thanks

30:25

for listening to americast from bbc

30:27

news. You can subscribe to this

30:29

podcast on the free bbc sounds

30:31

app which is now available worldwide.

30:45

When it comes to your finances you think you've done

30:47

it all. You save, you research, you invest it all

30:49

that you can. Now it's time

30:51

to take those investments to the next level

30:53

by using the brand behind every great investor,

30:55

Yahoo Finance. As America's number one

30:57

finance destination, Yahoo Finance has everything you

30:59

need whether you're a seasoned trader or

31:01

just dipping your toes into the market.

31:04

Join the millions of investors who trust Yahoo Finance

31:06

to guide them on their financial journey. For

31:09

comprehensive financial news and

31:11

analysis visit yahoofinance.com, the

31:14

number one financial destination,

31:16

yahoofinance.com. Hi,

31:19

I'm Katie Riley. On the slow

31:21

newscast from tortoise, Donald Trump became

31:23

the first former US president in history to

31:25

face a criminal trial. The

31:27

defendant repeatedly made false statements

31:30

on New York business records. This is

31:33

not a trial. This is not an

31:35

act of criminality. We cannot

31:37

and will not normalize serious

31:39

criminal conduct. This

31:41

is the story of his first week in court

31:43

told through the transcripts. Listen

31:45

now to the slow newscast wherever you get your

31:48

podcasts.