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1:15

Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

1:19

Sounds like someone's got mail. Yeah, you know, I've

1:21

been getting a whole lot of email from a

1:23

whole lot of people, but in particular from Donald

1:25

Trump and his presidential campaign. Let me

1:28

read one that just came to me fairly recently.

1:30

The subject line is, can I tell you who

1:32

my VP is? And then you have the big

1:34

Trump banner and a button saying cast your vote

1:36

and a memo from Trump that says, friends, can

1:39

I tell you who my vice president is? Second

1:42

thought, I have a much better idea. Before the

1:44

day is over, I want to hear from you

1:46

on who my VP should be. I'll be making

1:48

the choice soon. And then he goes

1:50

on to say, that's why I'm asking for you to please submit your

1:52

results now. Answer today and with your

1:54

input, we will make America great again. And of

1:56

course, it goes on to ask for some money

1:58

now. I get a lot

2:00

of emails from Donald Trump and I get a

2:03

few. He texts me a lot and you know

2:05

what, they've started beginning with, Dear Sarah, I love

2:07

you. You're very sweet. I

2:10

don't get texts from him, Sarah. Maybe he

2:12

does love you. Yeah, I don't think anyone

2:14

else in the world gets those texts, which

2:16

is something possibly we should do an entire

2:18

episode of America simply about that. But

2:20

anyway, drawing a veil, as they say, moving

2:23

swiftly on, he's a

2:25

showman. That's the point, isn't it? He's

2:27

a showman and he's found a way

2:29

to get everyone's attention yet again. He

2:31

is so good at this. So he

2:34

has trapped us into discussing this, but

2:36

it's not just him, I should

2:38

say, because we've had this email

2:41

from Edward. Dear Americaast, there has

2:43

been little speculation about Trump's possible

2:45

running mate. It will

2:47

be too late to speculate once he decides,

2:50

so please crack on. Edward,

2:53

this is for you. Welcome to Americaast.

2:55

Americaast. Americaast from BBC News. Let me start

2:58

off with two words. May in America. be

3:01

blamed at all. When

3:03

9-11 happened, we didn't ban planes. We secured

3:06

the cockpit. The president said, I'm going to

3:08

get a kiss

3:20

my ass. Nobody should have to go to jail for

3:22

smoking weed. Hi there, it is Sarah. I'm in the Washington, DC bureau. And

3:24

it's Anthony. point of

3:26

the continental United States. And it's Justin in Boringell, London, England. It's

3:29

a very important time for us to be able

3:31

to get the Western

3:45

point of the continental United States. Why?

4:00

What are you doing? I'm going to be on holiday. Oh, I see. Right.

4:04

I'm going to, but I had booked it without

4:06

knowing that Port Antilles is search or central and

4:08

that he was going to be there at the

4:10

same time. You've booked a holiday amongst

4:13

Anthony's extended family. Yeah.

4:16

Maybe not quite like that. But

4:18

it is beautiful country and it is well worth

4:20

visiting even without family here. Okay.

4:23

Right. Let's get to vice presidential things. I

4:25

mean, we should start off, I suppose, we've

4:27

talked a lot about Kamala Harris, who actually

4:29

is the vice president. We've talked about whether

4:32

she's going to remain Biden's vice

4:34

president. I think I mentioned on

4:36

one of our podcasts quite recently

4:38

that he could drop her. Biden

4:41

could drop her. And it's a kind of elephant in

4:43

the room because we're going to talk mainly about Trump.

4:45

But I just think right at the start, you look

4:47

back to FDR in whenever

4:50

it was, 1944, I suppose it was

4:53

when he was running for his third term, which he was still

4:55

allowed to do then. And he

4:57

or the party, because it was all done a bit

4:59

differently then, the party got rid of the guy called

5:01

Henry Wallace, who was the vice president because they thought

5:03

he wasn't up to it and they put someone else

5:05

in. I'm just saying there are

5:07

a lot of Democrats who at least behind

5:09

their hands and in secret would

5:12

tell you that that would be the solution to an

5:14

awful lot of their ways. But Anthony, you're laughing because

5:16

it ain't going to happen.

5:19

Yeah. I put the chances that approximately

5:21

zero. They are not dropping the first

5:23

black woman vice president in American history

5:26

just because Joe Biden's poll numbers are

5:28

not great. Well, exactly, Justin.

5:30

I couldn't agree with Anthony more. I mean, the

5:32

reason that there's more spotlight on Kamala Harris than

5:35

there would be normally is because of Joe Biden's

5:37

age and because Republicans are campaigning saying, look, there's

5:39

every chance she will actually assume the presidency during

5:42

the next term of Biden's reelected. But

5:44

for everybody who doesn't like her and might

5:46

be more likely to vote for a different

5:48

VP candidate, think of all of the women

5:51

and all the voters of color who make

5:53

up a huge part of Joe Biden's coalition

5:55

who would be so furious that he

5:57

would be shooting himself. It's an interesting one that I mean, I

5:59

don't. I'm not absolutely, obviously I'm not disagreeing with either

6:01

of you, but I was listening the other day to

6:04

Sarah Longwell, who you will both know, the

6:06

Republican pollster, very respectable, anti-Trump Republican pollster,

6:08

been around a long time, does a

6:10

lot of focus groups. And so this

6:13

wasn't a poll, it was a focus

6:15

group. And she had done a focus

6:17

group where they've got black

6:19

women talking about all the candidates and

6:21

all the potential candidates. And she said

6:23

there was a lot of hostility towards

6:26

Kamala Harris in that focus group because

6:28

they said she isn't representing us well.

6:32

And they were actually, they felt that

6:34

she was a poor representation of them.

6:36

So I take all your points, but

6:39

I think there are significant numbers of

6:41

people, including people of colour, including women

6:43

inside the Democratic Party, who as I

6:45

say, really in a very darkened room,

6:47

where it's absolutely secret would say, you

6:50

know what, we're quite like someone else.

6:52

Yeah, they're all the same people who are whispering behind their hands

6:55

that they hope somebody other than Joe Biden would run at the

6:57

top of the ticket and that didn't get them very far. Yeah,

7:00

true point. Anyway, turning back to Trump,

7:02

which is the main subject. So who's out?

7:04

Vivek Rabaswamy is out, isn't

7:06

he? Mike Pence, Mike Pence,

7:09

Anthony, I mean, it's an unusual situation.

7:11

Everything's so unusual this year. I

7:14

don't think we've properly stressed how

7:17

weird it is that the actual

7:19

vice president under Donald Trump is

7:22

now not just ruling himself out,

7:24

but also not wanting to vote

7:26

for his former president. Yeah, absolutely.

7:28

It is very unusual. And it's

7:30

interesting that the reason Pence said

7:32

he was not going to endorse

7:34

Donald Trump wasn't because Donald Trump

7:36

incited a riot at

7:38

the Capitol that threatened his life, but

7:40

because Donald Trump wasn't sufficiently conservative, which

7:42

I mean, okay, but it is a

7:45

little, you know, ignoring the

7:48

big question, the big threat that posed

7:50

Pence back on January 6th. Let's

7:52

listen to the former vice president. He was talking to

7:55

Martha McCallum on Fox News a couple

7:57

of weeks ago. I cannot in good

7:59

kind. conscience, uh, endorsed Donald

8:01

Trump in this campaign. But let me say

8:04

one last thing that being said, look, Republican

8:06

primary voters have made it clear, Martha, uh,

8:09

uh, you know, who they're for

8:11

in this election. What I'm going to spend the rest of

8:13

this year on is talking about what we

8:15

should be for. And that is the broad

8:18

mainstream conservative agenda.

8:21

Moving along, we do have a question

8:23

from Thomas in Germany via email and

8:25

Thomas writes, given the ages

8:27

of Joe Biden and Donald Trump, the

8:30

risk is higher that the future VP

8:32

might eventually become the actual president. Does

8:34

this mean the VP picks are more

8:36

important? Could the presidential race become a

8:39

race between two VP candidates? What do

8:41

you think, Justin? Uh,

8:43

100% yes, actually. I think it's a really good

8:45

question. I think it's really potentially true because the

8:47

normal thing you say about the vice president, I've

8:49

heard you say this, Anthony,

8:51

uh, it doesn't matter. I mean, really, it doesn't matter.

8:54

It doesn't add up too much. Um, uh,

8:56

and there've been all sorts of rather rude things. Vice

8:59

presidents have been called in the past and they're

9:01

on the vice presidential job. And you think that

9:03

wonderful. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Bugger the spit.

9:05

Yeah, it will be kind of halfway house

9:07

between how rude it actually was and what we're

9:09

allowed to say. So, uh, so there's all of

9:12

that stuff and there's a veep. I mean,

9:14

you know, lots of people have seen the TVs,

9:16

that wonderful TV series about the utterly hapless,

9:18

useless, um, uh, vice president. And

9:20

you know, that is the kind of, and you

9:22

think back to, who was the

9:24

guy who couldn't spell potato? Dan quail. Dan

9:26

quail. Yeah. I mean, potato or tomato. Anyway,

9:28

he, he corrected a young kid in a

9:30

class and put an E on the end.

9:33

Yeah. And then, you know, everyone laughed at

9:35

him, poor guy and, and, but nobody

9:37

really cared that, that much. And that

9:39

has been, that's the kind of classic

9:42

way, isn't it? And which the vice

9:44

presidential job is seen until this

9:46

year. And among the, all

9:48

the weird things about this year, all the things

9:51

about this year that are just, um,

9:53

utterly bonkers is the real

9:55

chance that either of these presidential, no, no, no, no, no,

9:57

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

10:00

nominees will become, let's

10:02

put this delicately, incapacitated

10:04

while in office. And

10:07

that really does raise the stakes, it

10:09

seems to me. It raises the

10:11

stakes for both men. But my goodness, it

10:13

makes the Trump pick for all

10:15

manner of reasons, given his legal difficulties and

10:17

the fact that they might follow him out

10:19

of office if he does serve

10:22

another four years. It makes all of

10:24

that so much more important, it seems

10:26

to me, than it has

10:28

been in at least recent history. And

10:30

it possibly turns on its head the

10:32

reasons why people pick their vice presidential

10:35

candidate. So traditionally, you're looking for somebody

10:37

to balance out the ticket, somebody who

10:39

can reach parts of the electorate that the

10:41

presidential candidate can't. So different demographics. If you've

10:44

got a candidate from the south, you might

10:46

be looking for a northerner,

10:48

a woman to stand alongside

10:50

a man, maybe a person of color if you've

10:52

got a white candidate. People

10:55

who appear more, appeal more to the left or the right

10:57

of their party, for instance. And

10:59

it's usually seen that way, that

11:01

you've got this vice presidential candidate

11:04

stands beside the president, persuades a

11:06

whole host of voters to come along

11:08

with them who might not otherwise do so,

11:10

and is then forgotten about for four years.

11:12

And during the campaign, very rarely does anybody

11:15

look very hard at what this person

11:17

would be like if they were the ones sat

11:19

in the Oval Office. And that's what's going to

11:21

be fascinating this year to see if they are

11:23

more interrogated about how their policies would be the

11:25

same or differ from the guy who's at the

11:27

top of the ticket and just whether or not

11:29

they would be competent in office. I remember

11:31

when I was a kid, actually, in

11:33

1980, I was an eight year old visiting

11:35

Washington, DC for the first time. And my

11:37

dad took me to a hotel and we

11:39

were riding up the elevator in the hotel.

11:41

And lo and behold, I was on the

11:43

elevator with Walter Mondale, who was Jimmy Carter's

11:45

vice president, the outgoing vice president. He had

11:48

already lost election. And my

11:50

dad introduced me. We shook hands and parted

11:52

ways in the elevator. My

11:54

first brush with politics as a

11:57

kid. And it is still something I vividly remember. one

12:00

of my first experiences ever reporting from

12:02

the united states uh... bust have been

12:04

back in two thousand two

12:07

thousand one something like that dick cheney was

12:09

the vice president because that well he'd

12:11

been appointed to try and pick a

12:13

vice presidential candidate to vet them all to look

12:15

across the whole country to try and decide who

12:18

would be the best running mate for george

12:20

w bush and he's goward the whole of america

12:22

and came up with himself and

12:24

uh... and made himself the vice president

12:26

and so he's in office when i'm

12:29

here reported and i know he's going to be

12:31

coming out of a a building after a television interview

12:33

one sunday morning and i am absolutely determined

12:35

i'm going to get to the question to

12:37

him i'm going to make my mark in

12:39

american that television journalism so i'm all keyed

12:42

up uh... and i don't know

12:44

if you know this and today but if you're reporting

12:46

in the uk if you're standing outside dining street waiting

12:48

for the prime minister for making get pretty physical to

12:51

be honest people crowd in all at once in

12:53

the elbow your competitors out of the way

12:55

in order to shove your microphone in front of

12:57

the politician and so i'm already

12:59

to do this echo charging forward only

13:01

to discover that firstly that is

13:04

not how polite american television reporters

13:06

behave at all they're all appalled but

13:08

not quite surprised at the secret service

13:10

who followed vice president and all the

13:12

time anyway suffice to say that did

13:14

not end well i did not get

13:16

an interview with dick cheney and i

13:19

only just managed to self-page being allowed

13:21

to report from america ever again god that

13:24

that they have those moments of genuinely

13:26

dangerous or potentially genuinely dangerous to because

13:28

everyone's very well armed and and and

13:30

and quite on edge uh...

13:32

let's talk about individuals then should we

13:34

just go through some of the obvious

13:36

names the trump himself as

13:38

kind of not battered away and and

13:41

and are themselves uh... saying

13:43

that they're interested that there's an obvious

13:45

one she became very prominent quite recently

13:47

and at least a phonic so

13:50

she was one of these people got a quite

13:52

a few of these it was a trump skeptic and

13:54

now has gone very very much

13:57

full-on trump lover and

14:00

has become a kind of really,

14:02

really true believer, it seems, in

14:05

everything that he believes

14:07

in, and became very prominent nationally

14:11

when she asked that series of

14:13

questions in Congress of the

14:15

bosses of some of the big Ivy

14:18

League colleges and got them in a

14:20

terrible mess over anti-Semitism

14:23

on campus. And that was

14:25

kind of the moment where

14:27

she inserted herself, I suppose,

14:29

into America's national political story.

14:32

I am asking, specifically calling

14:34

for the genocide of Jews, does

14:37

that constitute bullying or harassment?

14:40

If it is directed and severe or pervasive,

14:42

it is harassment? So the answer

14:44

is yes. It is

14:46

a context-dependent decision, Congresswoman. It's a

14:48

context-dependent decision. That's your testimony today,

14:51

calling for the genocide of Jews

14:53

is depending upon the context. That

14:55

is not bullying or harassment. This

14:58

is the easiest question to answer

15:00

yes, Miss McGill. If

15:02

that was an audition to get

15:04

herself on the list for a vice

15:06

presidential pick, it did very, very well. It

15:08

became the cold open for Saturday Night Live,

15:11

the sketch show that goes out every Saturday

15:13

night and often parodies the big political moment

15:15

of the week. Everybody knew who Elise Stefanik

15:17

was after that. I'd be interested,

15:20

you guys, whether you think that her

15:22

previously more liberal past, more moderate past,

15:24

is an asset or a setback. Because

15:26

obviously she could speak to, say, suburban

15:28

women voters, for instance, one of the

15:31

groups that Trump has trouble with, and

15:33

they could more easily identify with her

15:35

because she wasn't always, you know, full

15:37

magma, true believer. But it also does

15:40

mean there will be things she said,

15:42

albeit not specifically about Trump, that can

15:44

be brought up again and again. And

15:46

he might find that rather irritating that

15:48

previously moderate stances are being thrown around

15:50

as quotes from her. positions

16:00

and he moved. The criticisms in the past,

16:02

yeah, that will probably be thrown at her,

16:05

although Donald Trump has embraced some people who

16:07

have criticized him as long as he feels

16:10

that they have seen the lighting come around

16:12

to him. I think that the

16:14

fact that she's a woman is going to be one of

16:17

the reasons why she's on the shortlist for Donald

16:19

Trump, because there is a lot of interest

16:21

among the Trump circle and Trump himself

16:24

in balancing the ticket with a woman

16:26

candidate, because women voters has been a

16:28

real source of weakness for Republicans. And

16:30

as we discussed earlier, this would

16:32

be a way to shore up

16:34

that support. That actually is a

16:37

question that Ian sent us on Discord. He

16:39

said, will it help Trump to choose a

16:41

woman? And I think the answer you would

16:43

agree is yes, right? When we had to

16:45

make our time capsule predictions a few months

16:48

ago, one of the ones I put in

16:50

was that Trump would pick a woman to

16:52

be on his ticket. He likes

16:54

to have women around him if they have

16:56

the right look. And there is a very,

16:58

very MAGA look, which you see not just

17:00

the people he surrounds himself with. If you ever

17:03

go to any Trump event that he's holding some

17:05

of these like victory night parties after the primaries

17:07

or something, all the hairstyles, all the makeup,

17:09

all the high heels are practically the same

17:11

and all of the women there is a

17:14

very, very defined MAGA look. And

17:16

I think if you're going to

17:18

base it on that, and he does, look

17:20

at the lawyer he had sitting beside him

17:22

all through the Trump organization fraud trial in

17:24

New York, who didn't necessarily prove to be

17:26

the most effective barrister that he could have

17:28

had in the court. But she was out

17:30

of Trump World Central casting for being very

17:32

glamorous and well-dressed. And so I

17:34

think it does matter to him. And that surely puts

17:37

Kristy Noem pretty far up

17:39

the list, South Dakota governor, who

17:42

may have been getting ready for her close

17:44

up as she went and had her teeth

17:46

fixed recently, but that became a whole controversy

17:48

in itself. I'm Kristy

17:50

Noem. I'm the governor of South Dakota

17:52

and had the opportunity to come to

17:54

Smile Texas to fix my teeth, which

17:57

has been absolutely amazing. The team here

17:59

was... remarkable and finally gave

18:01

me a smile that I

18:03

can be proud of and confident in. It

18:05

was amazing to me how flexible this team

18:07

was with my schedule and they are that

18:10

way with everyone. I'll be eternally grateful. It

18:12

has been a gift to be here at

18:14

Smell Texas. So yeah, Kristi Noem

18:16

has been under some criticism for what

18:18

she may have gotten in return for

18:21

that little endorsement but she does have

18:23

potential as you mentioned Sarah and she

18:25

was at CPAC that gathering the Conservatives

18:28

last month and tied for the most

18:30

votes as among the

18:32

people, attendees therefore, who Donald Trump's

18:34

vice presidential pick should be. She

18:36

tied with Vivek Ramaswamy. One

18:39

count against Kristi Noem I think that we need

18:41

to drop in though is abortion which is going

18:43

to be a huge issue in this election as

18:45

we all know. In South Dakota

18:47

where she's the governor they have a total

18:49

abortion ban with no exceptions for rape incest

18:52

or the life of the mother and she

18:54

has passionately defended that and as we know

18:56

Donald Trump thinks that that's a significant vote

18:59

loser. He wants to minimize the role of

19:01

abortion policy in this election and he wants

19:03

to come up with some kind of compromise around an abortion

19:06

ban after about 15 or 16 weeks but not

19:08

earlier than that. So that could be a real

19:10

drag on Kristi Noem I think. Another

19:12

favorite or another person I saw

19:14

a lot of support for at

19:17

CPAC was Tulsi Gabbard who was

19:19

a former Democratic Congresswoman from Hawaii

19:21

who then became an independent, has

19:24

appeared on Fox regularly. She's very

19:26

charismatic, very very well spoken. She's

19:29

had us a military background. She's

19:31

young so she might be

19:33

a dark horse for a woman on the

19:36

ticket although again she has a more

19:38

liberal background and has endorsed actually Bernie

19:40

Sanders back in 2016 so

19:43

it would take a certain leap of faith

19:45

on Donald Trump's part to put her on

19:47

the ticket. Yeah and when it comes to

19:49

Tulsi Gabbard, I mean as you were

19:51

saying she

19:54

does have a past as

19:56

a Democrat and even a left-wing Democrat and

19:58

I just wonder how much of a risk

20:00

Donald Trump wants to take given that

20:02

things with Mike Pence didn't work out

20:04

as he expected them to. And I

20:07

think there are, you know, you've got

20:09

to factor in the conversation

20:11

that we're having now is kind of

20:13

mirrored by a conversation that he has,

20:16

he is having with people. And

20:18

his conversation is going to be

20:21

with the professional members of staff

20:23

and everyone right across the board

20:25

says that Trump is much better

20:28

advised by political operatives behind

20:30

the scenes who have done other campaigns

20:32

and who know about what has worked

20:34

in the past, who will be kind

20:37

of advising him to do the

20:39

conventional thing, to think through this choice,

20:41

to not shoot from the hip or

20:43

choose from the hip if you can

20:45

choose from the hip and work out

20:48

the kind of pros and cons of

20:50

each person. And I think part of

20:52

this entire conversation that we're having is

20:54

actually about, never mind the names, it's about

20:56

whether Trump is just going to pick someone

20:58

because it's kind of crazy and interesting and

21:01

he wants it to be good television. Sort

21:03

of in the way that John McCain did way

21:06

back when he made his rather wild

21:08

choice of vice presidential candidate, does he

21:10

go down that road or does he

21:12

actually listen to the politicals who've kind

21:15

of sorted his campaign much more this

21:17

time than it was in 2020 or

21:20

2016? And does he then

21:22

go down a more conventional route?

21:24

And I think it's those sorts

21:27

of questions behind the scenes that are

21:29

going to determine who

21:31

he picks, not just whether it's a man or

21:34

a woman or indeed someone

21:36

of colour, because that's another

21:38

point that people are making,

21:40

isn't it, behind the scenes. It's not just that

21:42

he could choose a woman. He could also choose

21:45

Senator from South Carolina, Tim Scott, for

21:47

whom I think, I mean, he ran

21:50

for the nomination and when he started,

21:52

he's by all accounts a very nice

21:54

man, people like him right across the

21:56

political aisle in Congress and feel that

21:58

he's a good... person and his stick

22:01

is very sunny, very un-Trump-like

22:03

actually about what he wants

22:05

America to be like. But

22:08

if you're going to go for a group,

22:11

if you're going to go for identity,

22:13

and Trump very much wants to attract

22:15

young black men in particular, then who

22:18

knows? Tim Scott, he's available

22:20

and he seems very keen. He

22:23

did run against Donald Trump for the nomination, but

22:25

he wasn't enormously critical of him. He

22:27

didn't say anything that could come back

22:30

to bite him now. And

22:32

pretty much as he dropped out, he

22:34

became this MAGA true believer following Trump

22:36

around the place. Donald

22:39

Trump himself says he's a better surrogate for

22:41

Trump than Trump is, and that he's making

22:43

a better case for Trump than he ever

22:45

made for Tim Scott himself. And all of

22:47

that's true, but to the point where it's

22:49

so sycophantic sometimes when you see him on

22:51

stage with Donald Trump. Because I think that's

22:53

another aspect of this. Does he want someone who's

22:56

so utterly sycophantic that he quickly

22:58

gets sick of them? I mean, we can't

23:00

know, but it's interesting to speculate, I think,

23:03

the psychology of the Trump choice is more

23:05

complex than you might kind of immediately think.

23:07

And let's hear Tim Scott and Donald Trump

23:10

together if you want to get a taste

23:12

for that kind of sycophancy that you mentioned.

23:14

She actually appointed you, Tim. And

23:18

think of it, appointed and you're the

23:21

senator of his state and she

23:23

endorsed me. You

23:26

must really hate her. No,

23:29

it's a shame. It's a shame. Uh

23:31

oh. I

23:34

just love you. That's why he's a great

23:37

politician. Pass

23:40

the sick bag, Alice, as they used

23:43

to say. I mean, he's talking there

23:45

about Nikki Haley, isn't he? That

23:47

the thorn in his side and not

23:49

wanting to be too nice about her.

23:51

And it was Nikki Haley who appointed

23:54

Tim Scott. And Tim Scott, of course, then

23:56

turned on Nikki Haley. So it's all very

23:58

complicated and Well, not very nice, I suppose.

24:01

Yeah, so Anthony, Justin, I

24:04

wonder if you've spotted the same thing

24:06

I have, which is just how much

24:08

Trump seems to be enjoying

24:10

relishing this process, though. And in

24:13

fact, I remember watching him picking

24:15

his first cabinet members when he was first elected

24:17

in 2016. And the same

24:19

thing was going on where he was just

24:21

making people audition for it, potentially

24:24

humiliating them at the end if he

24:26

decided not to go for them. But

24:28

he's going around the country at the

24:30

moment teasing not just the voters, but

24:32

lots of potential candidates. He was down

24:34

on the border a couple of weeks ago in

24:36

Texas, so he had the Texas Governor Greg

24:38

Abbott beside him. And he immediately starts talking

24:40

about what a great running mate, Greg Abbott,

24:43

would be. And so he has to say

24:45

he would be delighted and honored. And then

24:47

the next time he's going to be standing

24:49

beside anybody who's even possibly a running

24:52

mate, he'll be putting out

24:54

these little hints, and therefore he'll

24:56

just be weighing up the sycophancy

24:58

that comes his way as a

25:00

result. He just he really enjoys

25:02

toying with people and their egos,

25:05

I think. And this has got to be one of the

25:07

best games he can have. I mean, it's like a certain

25:09

television program, isn't it? Which he made

25:11

his name and a lot of his money.

25:13

I mean, it really is. And that's how

25:15

he treats it. Yeah. I

25:17

assume, Justin, you're talking about The Apprentice, where

25:20

people competed to get a shot at his

25:22

apprentice. Don't forget, he also used to own

25:24

Miss Universe. And there are

25:26

elements of this contest, I have to

25:28

say, as these candidates parade themselves in

25:30

front of him, which might be more

25:32

akin to Miss Universe than it is to

25:34

The Apprentice. I have forgotten about the Miss Universe

25:37

days. Anyway, so are we

25:39

saying that Tim Scott is unlikely because he's

25:41

too sycophantic? Is that just us or is

25:43

that? No, I don't think sycophancy

25:45

rules you out. No. So

25:47

we're not ruling Tim Scott out. And, you

25:49

know, as I was suggesting, he seems to

25:51

be someone who is sunny, where Trump is

25:54

dark and who has friends, where Trump has

25:56

a lot of enemies. And if you're looking

25:58

for this balance, take a look. ticket thing.

26:00

I think we're all suggesting that he's not necessarily

26:02

looking for a balanced ticket, but if you

26:04

are, if he is, then Tim Scott fits the bill.

26:08

And he's a good speaker. He didn't come

26:10

across very well in the debates because he

26:12

speaks quite slowly, but he's got a great

26:14

story about how he made it in America

26:17

and if he can, how anybody can. It's

26:19

a kind of uplifting Reaganite kind of story.

26:21

And he's very charming and charismatic, if he's

26:23

got an audience who's prepared to give him

26:26

the time to listen. So in

26:29

personality ways, he could balance out

26:31

quite a lot of Donald Trump as well as politically. There

26:33

is a candidate we haven't yet talked

26:35

about who is a really

26:38

interesting, I mean, in a sense, he

26:40

is a balanced ticket and he certainly

26:42

brings something to the ticket potentially rather

26:44

as Tim Scott as a black man

26:47

or the various women as women.

26:50

Marco Rubio, who is

26:53

a senator from Florida who

26:55

has been around for quite a

26:58

long time now, famously, famously, famously

27:00

back in 2016, ran

27:02

against Trump for the nomination and

27:05

was utterly destroyed by Donald

27:07

Trump. Humiliated. Humiliated. I mean, it's worth,

27:09

we've got the clip, it's worth listening

27:12

to some of that humiliation. Don't worry

27:14

about it, little Marco, I will. Well,

27:16

let's hear big Donald. Don't worry about

27:18

it, little Marco. Gentlemen, let's hear you.

27:23

You ought to show a better man. You've got

27:25

to do better than those. And then himself said

27:29

of Trump that he wasn't fit for office.

27:31

And now he's suddenly saying, oh, yeah, yeah,

27:34

if I was picked, I'd do it. And his

27:36

name is going around, even though for all

27:38

the reasons that you've just outlined, Justin, it

27:40

seems incredibly unlikely. And yet you keep hearing

27:42

it come up in conversation. I

27:45

don't know if that's because it's really

27:47

under consideration or because somebody in little

27:49

Marco's team is briefing it very hard.

27:51

It's always interesting when you start having

27:54

these chats in politics and lots of

27:56

different people all start telling you the

27:58

same thing. either means

28:00

they're all right, or it means that there's a campaign

28:02

behind it to convince you that they are. Right.

28:05

Yeah, that's the thing about Marco Rubio.

28:07

Yes, he would bring perhaps Hispanic voters,

28:09

which is another targeted group that Republicans

28:11

feel like they've made inroads in and

28:13

could really cement. And if they just

28:15

convince more to vote Republican, that could

28:18

really deliver Arizona and Nevada to very

28:20

key swing states to the Republicans. But

28:22

he also has his own independent presidential

28:24

ambitions, as we saw in 2016. And

28:27

as we discussed before, would Donald Trump

28:29

want to have a VP who has

28:31

got his own agenda, Justin? I

28:34

don't think that fits with what we've been playing so

28:36

far. Well, yeah, except that. Does he

28:38

believe in anything at all? And if the

28:41

answer to that is probably no, then does

28:43

that make him really attractive to Donald Trump?

28:45

I weirdly, I had lunch with him in

28:47

about maybe 2015. So

28:50

he was in London, and a few of us met up with

28:52

him and had a very nice

28:54

lunch at the offices of the

28:56

Spectator magazine, this old and conservative

28:59

British magazine. And they'd invited him

29:01

in. And what became

29:03

obvious, he was talking then about how

29:06

to become the candidate and get through

29:08

what I remember him using this term,

29:10

the Fox News primary. So in

29:12

other words, he said the problem with all of us

29:14

is we get pushed to the right by Fox News.

29:16

And I don't want to be that person getting pushed

29:18

to the right. In other words, and then he was

29:20

running as a very much a centrist Republican. And

29:23

then he went into the 2016 election kind of

29:25

in the same position. And then he's been in

29:27

all sorts of contorted positions since

29:30

then and now appears to be a

29:32

fan of Donald Trump. I wonder if that

29:34

very ability

29:37

to change rather

29:39

attracts him to Trump or attracts Trump

29:41

to him because he's not really

29:43

a threat because he hasn't got anything when it

29:46

comes to kind of political ambition. He's

29:48

got lots of ambition, but it's not political.

29:50

It's not to do anything. He's got one

29:53

big problem though. And I feel sure that

29:55

Anthony knows exactly what the 12th amendment to

29:57

the constitution says. Oh,

29:59

yeah. I do. And it's

30:02

a rule that you can't have two

30:04

candidates, vice president and a president, from

30:07

the same state running in an

30:09

election on the same ticket. So

30:11

one of them would have to move

30:13

or claim residency in a different state

30:15

in order to avoid having Florida's

30:18

electoral votes where they're both from, not count

30:20

for Republicans, which is kind of a big

30:23

deal. Florida's a big state, an important state.

30:25

So now maybe Donald Trump would claim New

30:27

Jersey, maybe Marco Rubio. I don't know. He

30:29

could claim Nevada, moved to Nevada. He used to

30:31

live there as a kid, but it is an

30:34

obstacle, a not insurmountable obstacle. He had

30:36

Dick Cheney and George W. Bush, both

30:38

from Texas and Cheney, then claimed Wyoming

30:40

as his home state. But it is

30:42

something that they would have to get

30:45

through if Marco Rubio

30:47

was on the ticket. That is fabulously nerdy. So

30:49

the first thing we know, if it's

30:51

going to happen, is we see Rubio's moved

30:54

to Hawaii or something. And

30:56

there's one other candidate I want to talk to,

30:58

because I think he's really interesting and unusual and

31:01

different. And that might be something that Donald Trump

31:03

goes for. And that's the new senator from Ohio

31:06

who was elected just two years ago, J.D.

31:08

Vance. He is the author of that 2016

31:11

bestselling book, Hillbilly Elegy, the

31:13

memoir that was about his

31:15

working-class roots in Ohio and

31:18

the Midwest. He was a never-Trump-er in

31:20

the beginning, but then came around to

31:22

Donald Trump and now has been a

31:25

very active and enthusiastic supporter of Donald

31:27

Trump in the Senate. And

31:29

if you get to the idea that

31:32

this entire presidential election is going to

31:34

be decided by white working-class voters in

31:36

places like Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania,

31:38

I think J.D. Vance may be the

31:41

best candidate to try to win those

31:43

people over, to get them out to

31:45

the polls. He's young. He's only 38

31:48

years old. He's an interesting

31:50

guy. And I think if I had to pick

31:52

someone, I might be putting my money on J.D.

31:54

Vance at this point. Yeah, and he's another of

31:56

these people who's been on a journey, hasn't he?

31:58

Because he was very firmly. anti-Trump.

32:01

Yeah, he did well in 2022 in

32:04

the midterms because if you remember we

32:06

were predicting this red wave that was going

32:08

to come and in fact a lot of Republican

32:10

candidates did really quite badly in the midterms

32:12

and many of the ones who'd been

32:14

endorsed by Donald Trump did particularly badly

32:16

with a few exceptions the shiniest of

32:19

which was JD Vance who won

32:21

pretty comfortably and enjoyed that Trump endorsement

32:23

so you know he looks like a

32:25

winner and he ran a very interesting

32:27

campaign have a listen to this. Call

32:57

us. We will put America first. And

33:00

that's an issue that's going to be huge

33:02

I think we're all agreed that immigration is

33:05

really going to matter in this campaign and

33:07

that's a way of talking about it which

33:09

neutralizes some of the inflammatory rhetoric that Donald

33:11

Trump uses when talking about it but you know

33:13

a lot of people will agree with that. Let's

33:16

mention a few other names who are probably not going

33:18

to be on the list and the obvious one to

33:20

start with is Nikki Haley because if

33:22

you're a centrist Republican

33:24

and and you wake

33:26

up in the middle of the night in

33:29

a cold sweat thinking how

33:31

on earth are we going to manage this I suppose you

33:33

think I know we'll get

33:35

a candidate who kind of reigns Trump in

33:37

and as if that were possible to do

33:39

and and changes his policy and

33:41

Trump can just be president and get off

33:44

all the get off all the

33:46

court cases and all the rest of it and actually leave

33:48

someone else to actually govern I'm not suggesting for a minute

33:50

that could happen but I suppose if

33:52

you were thinking that that might happen then your choice

33:54

would be Nikki Haley about

33:56

whom we talked so much so recently

33:58

and now right And there are

34:01

a few more here on the list that

34:03

we should probably talk about. Carrie Lake, who

34:05

is running for Senator in Arizona. She ran

34:07

for governor and lost in 2022, but a

34:09

telegenic Trump supporter. But she's

34:11

kind of got her race now to

34:14

focus on. So she probably won't take

34:16

a VP pick. Sarah Huckabee Sanders, you

34:18

remember her. She was Donald Trump's press

34:20

secretary for a big chunk of his

34:22

term in office. She's now governor of

34:24

Arizona and is an enthusiastic Trump supporter,

34:26

another woman that Trump could look at

34:28

to put on the ticket. Of

34:31

course, Marjorie Taylor Greene, we all

34:33

know her. She's the Congresswoman from

34:35

Georgia, a bomb thrower who has

34:38

been an outspoken Trump supporter, also

34:41

could catch Donald Trump's eye. And

34:43

then, Sarah, what about Tucker Carlson? If Donald Trump wants

34:45

to really think outside the box, he's got a lot

34:48

of free time. Do you think he might have a

34:50

shot? Is it got enough free time now that

34:52

he's no longer on Fox News to

34:54

go around Russia making movies about

34:57

how much better it is there than it

34:59

is in the United States of America? Because

35:01

remember, he went over to interview Vladimir Putin,

35:04

and President Putin didn't think much of that interview. He

35:06

said he wasn't asked very clever questions. And then

35:08

he started making these videos that he was putting

35:10

out on X, formerly known as

35:13

Twitter, including how very clever it

35:15

is in Russia. On the supermarket

35:17

trolleys, you can put a coin in, use

35:19

the trolley in the supermarket and get the

35:21

coin back again on the way out. And

35:23

that stops people from throwing them into the

35:25

rivers in the canal. All right. Here

35:28

we go. So I guess you

35:30

put in 10 rubles here and you

35:32

get it back when

35:34

you put the cart back. So

35:37

it's free, but there's an incentive to return

35:39

it and not just bring it to your

35:41

homeless encampment. OK. The

35:44

it would be good for a laugh, Tucker

35:47

Carlson, but would it gain any votes? Yeah.

35:49

So long term and he needs someone who can.

35:52

And this is a kind of technical

35:55

issue for Trump, but I think quite an important one.

35:58

And I don't know whether he thinks this is. strategically

36:00

as this, but if

36:02

he wants to avoid all the potential

36:04

criminal cases, and he does the presidency,

36:06

so he does the four years, and

36:09

nothing progresses during the four years because

36:11

the understanding with the Justice Department is

36:13

that nothing can, and the states won't

36:15

do it either. But actually, at the

36:17

end of the four years, assuming he's

36:19

successfully pardoned himself for the federal cases,

36:21

which there is some question about the

36:23

extent to which he can do that,

36:26

but let's assume that he can do

36:28

that, he's still got these state cases

36:30

waiting for him, certainly the one in

36:32

Georgia, which is unlikely to have started

36:34

before the election. So does he

36:36

need someone who can run and win in

36:38

2028 and can then make sure

36:41

that that case doesn't

36:44

haunt him? And I do wonder

36:46

whether there is a kind of

36:48

thinking that the person he needs

36:50

needs to be a potential 2028

36:53

winner, and that some of

36:55

those wilder suggestions, the Marjorie Taylor Greens, the

36:57

Tucker Carlson's, I mean, who knows what America

36:59

is like by then, maybe they are potential

37:01

winners, they would probably both say that they

37:03

were, but actually, I wonder whether that sort

37:05

of brings him towards the safer side of

37:07

town, as it were as well. Well,

37:10

I've always wondered whether or not he's going to

37:12

want to groom Eric or Don

37:14

Jr. to be his

37:16

successor, and then you could argue you want a

37:18

vice president who's not going to be competition in

37:20

2028. If he looks to

37:22

turn it into a family business, he's already

37:25

got his daughter-in-law running the Republican National

37:27

Committee, and he'll be wanting to put

37:29

the family in some kind of position,

37:31

I would think, make it dynastic. Yep, plans

37:33

within plans, it's all very Shakespearean. We could

37:36

go down a rabbit hole just thinking about

37:38

it all. That's our job,

37:40

at least on this podcast, because people like the

37:42

rabbit holes. They come up to

37:45

me in the street, I don't know about you, but I've had,

37:47

in fact, the newsreader on Radio 4

37:49

the other day, I was doing my day job

37:51

on the Today programme, the newsreader. As soon as

37:53

the bulletin was underway and something was being played,

37:56

Alan Smith, he turned to me and he said, I've got

37:58

several questions I want to ask, and... And I said,

38:00

well, isn't either the time nor the place,

38:02

I said. But, yeah, someone came up to

38:05

me in the street the other day as

38:07

well to say, could I write some questions

38:09

down? So, I mean, people like the rabbit

38:11

holes. And I think understandably, because it is

38:13

sort of endlessly fascinating. And here is a

38:15

rabbit hole before we wrap up. Who's

38:17

it going to be? Few entries

38:20

in our America's time capsule. I know

38:22

I've got some quite wild entries

38:24

there, which have still not come true, but who

38:26

knows if they might? Yeah, of course, of the

38:28

summer, we've got a few months to go. Still

38:30

time. So nominees for vice president, 2024,

38:32

Anthony, kick us off. You

38:35

know, I'm going to say J.D. Vance. I think

38:38

Tim Scott would be the safe pick, but I

38:40

think Donald Trump might decide to make that real

38:42

play, as I mentioned, for white working class voters.

38:44

So J.D. Vance is my pick. That's

38:46

a good one. I'm going to say Elise Stefanik.

38:49

Yeah, I mean, both of those are good.

38:51

I wonder if Tulsi Gabbard, I mean, I

38:53

know there is this problem that she has

38:55

been in the past quite an outspoken Democrat,

38:57

but she's also in more recent times been

39:00

very outspokenly anti-Democrat, if you see

39:02

what I mean. And I wonder

39:04

whether that might attract

39:06

her to him. So I'm going to go

39:08

for her. You could be right.

39:10

I've heard rumors. I heard a friend of mine was

39:13

talking to some Republican senators a few months ago and

39:15

Gabbard was one they thought was going to be the

39:17

pick. OK, the WhatsApp 443301239480. And

39:24

if you're a news reader in the BBC,

39:26

that's how you get in touch with us, folks. Don't

39:28

hand me bits of paper in the studio. americast.bbc.co.uk.

39:33

Hashtag America's something

39:35

called Discord. Remember, you will always

39:37

hear America's first and in full as a

39:40

podcast on BBC Science. And we'll see

39:42

you later. Bye. Goodbye.

39:45

Bye. America's America's from

39:47

BBC News. Thanks

39:49

for listening to America's from BBC News.

39:52

You can subscribe to this podcast on

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the free BBC Sounds app, which is

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now available worldwide. Honey,

40:04

why are you packing a suit

40:07

with swim trunks and sunscreen? Because

40:09

I can't wear the same suit for

40:11

fine dining and kayaking. Total

40:13

faux pas. Then I need something casual for the

40:15

roller coasters. Oh, and the music festival.

40:18

Meetings waterside. Really? Looks like

40:20

your work trip to Tampa Bay just

40:22

turned into a couples trip through the

40:24

weekend. How's our packing? Where it meets Leia,

40:27

Tampa Bay. Our business and leisure

40:29

blend perfectly. Discover modern hotels and

40:31

easy vibes at visittampavay.com.

40:41

Honey, why are you packing a

40:43

suit with swim trunks and sunscreen?

40:45

Because I can't wear the same suit

40:47

for fine dining and kayaking. Total faux

40:49

pas. Then I need something casual for

40:51

the roller coasters. Oh, and the

40:53

music festival. Meetings waterside.

40:56

Really? Looks like your work trip

40:58

to Tampa Bay just turned into a couples

41:00

trip through the weekend. How's our packing?

41:02

Where it meets Leia, Tampa Bay.

41:04

Where business and leisure blend

41:06

perfectly. Discover modern hotels and

41:08

easy vibes at visittampavay.com.