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this episode is brought to you by choiceology

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live

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because one of the things that the justice system

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none of the greatest things that greatest do is

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to nurse

1:02

welcome back to ama guess this

1:05

is slain podcast about the courts

1:07

and the law and justice

1:09

with a capital j and we are

1:11

into our summer series where we

1:13

look at something took movies

1:17

podcasts whatever that means huge

1:19

difference to us and of this week

1:21

we're talking to judge victoria

1:23

pratt her new book the

1:25

power of dignity was published

1:27

this past may play seal press

1:30

as chief judge in newark municipal

1:33

court in newark in newark she

1:35

spent years thinking about

1:38

how justice could actually be delivered

1:40

to descendants and how

1:42

as judges

1:45

there is a part to play in building that trust

1:47

in the justice system when

1:49

i read her book this past winter

1:52

and disclosure and disclosure blurb it

1:54

i was really struck by the ways

1:57

in which judge prep thinks about

1:59

center

2:00

the committee

2:01

many in just as it's

2:03

a word that we don't use this is often

2:06

enough and it has a real place

2:08

in public discourse it's really

2:11

informed the way i

2:13

seen about justice right now

2:16

my only other coda is that

2:18

we need more judges on this show

2:20

we've had a couple said

2:23

robert that last nick came on

2:25

it's really important for

2:27

the american public to hear from judges

2:30

and former judges about how the

2:32

sink in what they do so

2:34

to all you judges and former judge is out there

2:36

please take a page literally

2:39

from ted's pratt's book don't

2:41

just write books the

2:43

on shows see him a public

2:46

discourse because we need to hear that

2:48

you are real people it's part

2:50

of why the integrity

2:53

and the dignity of the court is something

2:55

that feels so elusive so with all that

2:57

it is such a joy to

3:00

introduce the honorable victoria pratt's

3:02

she served as the chief judge of the nord

3:04

municipal courts is a professor

3:07

at the rutgers newark school of criminal

3:09

justice and she has taught at but the

3:11

school of law her ted talk

3:13

how judges can show respect has been

3:15

viewed over thirty million times

3:18

judge pratt welcome to

3:20

amadeus thank you for having me on

3:22

am i would say says don't get invited to the party

3:24

so it's nice

3:25

here and to actually work as

3:27

to come to this one

3:29

yeah i mean i really do feel

3:31

as though the beating heart of this

3:33

book is that judges

3:36

have such a role to play

3:38

not just an

3:40

seen people and hearing people and doing

3:42

justice but in real

3:45

building the integrity and

3:47

the dignity of the court system itself

3:49

with this isn't just a project

3:52

about only need to see the dignity and

3:54

of descendants the come before us it's that we

3:56

have to rebuild trust and there's

3:58

no

3:58

we to rebuild trust

3:59

if your face and your voice

4:02

, your heart or not in the game so i think it's

4:04

so essential essential that you

4:06

wrote this book that be that you are willing to come on

4:08

and talk about it and i wonder if we can start

4:11

judge pratt where you started

4:13

because you're sort of origin

4:15

story of your family

4:18

of growing up how

4:22

you managed to find

4:25

a place for yourself in law

4:27

school in the legal system and eventually

4:29

on the bench is a really

4:32

amazing story that amazing don't saying

4:35

well it happens every day

4:37

i just don't think we hear it enough so can you tell

4:39

us a little bits about how

4:41

you got your and where you came from and where your family

4:44

came from and love

4:45

what to start there

4:47

when i got stuck in the book which

4:49

with many times i sat with a friend

4:51

of mine and he said to me your problem

4:53

is that you're trying to write this book

4:56

that from the beginning but from the middle

4:59

and i think that if we all

5:01

really cool

5:02

that to the beginning it will improve

5:04

how we serve this professionals and servants

5:07

on the bench so under daughter of

5:09

an african american garbage men

5:11

who was born in the forties he was

5:13

born in

5:14

harlem usa as

5:15

people from harlem believe it's it's own state

5:18

and he spent most of his centers

5:21

in the segregated south and that really

5:23

frames and decide who he was

5:25

he was african american man raising

5:28

children my father never felt

5:30

like he has the full rights of citizenship

5:32

in this country and that's challenging

5:35

because he was a citizen of this country

5:37

but never felt that he fully

5:39

could act and be

5:43

with out there be a penalty

5:45

for his existence sky remember

5:48

seeing someone come to our house and elderly

5:50

white man came to our house to get

5:52

my parents involved in one of those

5:55

predatory more teachers the

6:00

be deferential to this old white

6:02

dude with a mouse and he would say yes sir

6:04

yes sir are you doing that

6:07

i didn't understand and i didn't fully understand

6:10

until much later was that my

6:13

father was responding

6:15

in survival mode

6:17

because he had to behave a particular

6:20

way to survive as an african america

6:22

the man in the forties and fifties

6:24

in this country and

6:27

fortunately his children didn't have to be

6:29

that we but it really sucked me when

6:32

i learned why he had to behave that way to initially

6:34

the kid i felt the same thing was he looking

6:37

down i now understood that

6:39

looking white men in the cease then

6:41

i in the south to be his death months

6:44

and so how do you

6:46

put those things together and then resold

6:49

rents to be healthy and not afraid

6:51

in this country as i lay has

6:53

nothing to get as many santa i am

6:55

the daughter of daughter dominican beautician

6:57

who came to this country

6:59

the for a better life for her unborn

7:02

children

7:02

the first generation i grew

7:05

up in a household where i was the

7:07

eldest english speaking child

7:09

and so that meant that all of my mother's friends

7:12

and our families turned to me

7:14

the help them resolve their issues particularly

7:17

navigating government systems

7:19

which i at that point eight

7:22

and nine years old understood how

7:24

difficult it was for person to just

7:27

navigate a system that we're supposed

7:29

to be set up to help them but in fact it

7:31

did not i'm still

7:33

learning how to advocate

7:35

for people at an early age but

7:37

my parents made sure and mates because

7:40

they were treated with such little

7:42

dignity maybe because they were treated

7:44

with such little respect insisted

7:47

ensure that their children the

7:49

he

7:50

a different way

7:52

so

7:53

i was taught to be respectful no

7:55

matter how people look to how they behave

7:58

my mother's has a beauty salon in

8:00

the city of new work and as always i run guess

8:02

four blocks away from where i became

8:04

the chief judge who would have known that

8:06

little kid who was running from beauty salon

8:09

supply stores to beauty supply stores

8:12

what later

8:13

preside over justice in

8:16

the same city the

8:19

watching how my mother in

8:21

these people and you know we always

8:23

say i i know i was on that can become

8:25

my parents fun the become my parents and

8:28

then one day i'm sitting on the bench and i'm channeling heard

8:30

him that wow miss elsa is

8:32

here

8:33

so when i got on the bench it just made sense

8:35

to me that i would see the humanity

8:38

and people that i would be engaged in human

8:40

centered justice and

8:42

that i would understand that there were

8:44

circumstances that brought people into the

8:46

justice system sometimes lead bring

8:48

people out of custody and they're like com

8:51

vagina you miss aussies daughter

8:52

the that wire and i'm like oh my god to

8:54

com system that because as i know

8:56

them

8:57

from the community see what

9:00

is this lc started doing

9:02

the bed but this idea

9:04

that idea knew a person i

9:06

saw i and that i had been serving in

9:08

this community

9:09

before i became a judge hobbies

9:11

i respect the law because i became an attorney

9:14

so that i could do that

9:15

i think so

9:16

it with that

9:18

the team this kind of just

9:20

because i was sitting on offense

9:22

then i was sitting in

9:24

the system

9:25

where

9:26

i would see black and brown these get keys

9:29

before they got an opportunity to shine their brilliance

9:31

on the work and what that meant

9:33

to me i saw a system

9:36

that plus the mentally ill

9:38

the poor the marginalized vulnerable

9:41

through some them through it and

9:43

then penalize

9:44

then for being poor black

9:46

and brown and mentally ill

9:49

then i decided when i pretty much as

9:51

i didn't become adjust

9:52

i thought the system is perfect and new the system

9:55

was broken but i submitted myself

9:57

the i was worth issue that everybody

9:59

can be me got just as that i deliberate

10:01

justice the every person he came before

10:03

and

10:05

and co

10:06

my origin story is is there

10:08

it it's from

10:10

my parents his friends how widely of doesn't

10:12

african american and latino women is well

10:14

see things that are unsafe

10:17

and insisting that something has

10:19

to be done about

10:21

the my first one to just point out that i don't

10:23

know how many years we've been recording

10:25

this show and that was the for the time

10:27

we got a full burst

10:29

of spanish and i of course cleared

10:32

up because as like wow needed

10:34

, happen it needs to happen now so sincere

10:37

sincere i think they also wanted just read a tiny

10:40

little section from your introduction

10:42

if i may judge pratt sura absolutely

10:45

because he said he , one

10:47

pass that were paved unprepared for

10:49

me but the people who did not even know

10:51

i was coming my ancestors constructed

10:53

filled mopped polished and maintain

10:56

institutions where i was educated and

10:58

trained and that they were not permitted

11:00

to attend the fact that my ancestors

11:02

pick clinton and clutch sugar cane

11:05

is not waste that on me so i serve

11:07

to pay it back and forward it's

11:09

such a resonant passage it also reminds

11:11

me so much of what judge

11:14

kittens you brown jackson was saying it her hearing

11:16

in fit we stand on the shoulders of

11:18

these people who may not be visible

11:21

to you but they are in my

11:23

ears all the time and time love

11:25

i love you even

11:27

as early as their introduction of the book center

11:30

your parents because they're

11:32

both heroes it's it's just that we

11:34

don't get a hero

11:36

that kind of the early some gas

11:38

and if we remember that if we remember

11:40

that we owe it that we

11:43

owe our service that we have

11:45

to do something because of those

11:47

days when i think about

11:49

it hoped for me to

11:52

get here

11:54

the human burst of gratitude

11:57

and thank you for acknowledging

11:58

the spanish because

11:59

i do it the medium

12:02

as mr

12:04

the importance of bringing every

12:06

scene about me

12:09

what i do

12:11

the briefing every guest

12:13

every talent every experience

12:16

is significant and that

12:19

remember that i do

12:21

this because people came before me for

12:23

me it's the arkansas

12:26

me right before right took the bar

12:28

exam

12:28

then who is from southern pines

12:31

north carolina moved to north

12:32

you know they say black folks ended up in north

12:34

because they heard nor can puppies a new york

12:36

and they got off the bus and she ended

12:39

up in your

12:40

and she said to me when i was fretting

12:43

about passing the bar she said you go and

12:45

claim victory over that far because

12:48

me and your us all we could

12:50

do with clean white people's homes that's

12:52

the only opportunities we have so

12:54

the fact that you're

12:55

in place where you can sit for a bar exam

12:58

so your capacity

13:00

the car we cleaned phones

13:03

because we couldn't go to school because we

13:05

couldn't go into those places and i think

13:07

about it for any time i start to feel all with

13:09

me it's too much the world is too big

13:11

and like oh no

13:12

the have been prepared and wired

13:15

for this stuff and

13:18

even going to law school

13:20

i'm a proud member of the minority student

13:22

program at rutgers newark of that

13:24

is because during the rebellions in north

13:27

the people in north did not let rutgers

13:29

university off the hook a with their and

13:31

said

13:31

you put people who look like us into school

13:34

they were trying to go to these classes they weren't

13:37

trying to become attorneys of they knew

13:39

that is they didn't force these

13:41

institutions

13:43

we wouldn't be able to get there so it's

13:46

the space of gratitude is thank you i'm

13:48

tired but thank you for what

13:50

you did to ensure this there's

13:52

a fight and we must continue to fight

13:54

and we must so up in our spaces and remember

13:56

all those folks who came before us and

13:59

that's right in the space itself i think

14:02

that sometimes

14:02

for judges we

14:04

iran to the bench and a couple

14:06

of things happen the burns

14:09

magnifies who you are i

14:11

won't say that again it magnifies

14:14

who you are as a person so

14:17

, you are kind of a jerk and

14:19

you get on the bench yeah

14:23

right and when you can on the bench

14:25

oh goodness that is magnified

14:27

because now

14:28

you're not wearing a robe you're wearing a cape

14:30

an accent

14:32

that's why it's important that we decide

14:34

very deliberately

14:37

who is strategically who gets to get

14:39

on the bench

14:40

but if you're a good person the you really

14:42

wanna do best good you take that authority

14:44

that institutional authority and you do good with

14:46

the and i always told the story about

14:48

now sen cory booker

14:51

then mayor booker when he may be

14:53

a judge

14:55

that

14:56

people said the most ridiculous things about why

14:58

should become much as oh she's too nice

15:01

oh she's too little and someone

15:03

deciding that i had stepped be it says because

15:05

i'm too little and i would say i'm

15:08

not trying to get on a ride and ride you commit park

15:10

i'm trying to the judge so the

15:12

realities you need to be talking to him about my

15:14

legal arguments about what my judicial

15:16

supplements than to be when i get on the bench

15:19

and not foolishness men never have to talk

15:21

about how little they are when they get a job

15:23

and so this idea that

15:25

what we envision

15:27

that we almost what judges to be are these be

15:29

intimate

15:30

the ring true and that has nothing

15:32

to do with the delivery of justice and

15:34

the reality is that in north monday

15:37

name monday the streets was just don't

15:39

play what that means

15:41

is that she's tough but she's

15:43

fair and at least she cares about

15:45

you because what i want years i'm

15:47

gonna hold you accountable but i want you to

15:49

have some opportunities to shift

15:51

your life and to do better as well and

15:54

i don't

15:54

work for the police or every time the police officer

15:56

the prosecutor says something doesn't mean that i have

15:59

to believe it it means

15:59

the have to prove it and so

16:02

the people begin to see

16:04

these things they begin to look at

16:06

the justice system differently spray

16:08

get standing on the

16:10

older the people who didn't get justice i'm

16:12

committed to making sure the people

16:14

just recently come before me we're

16:17

going to take a brief break for some more it's from our

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sponsors

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this episode is brought to you choiceology

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choiceology the show all of us,

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author of the best-selling book, how

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katie talks to authors athlete to nobel

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in or wherever you get your podcasts

18:16

can you tell us a

18:18

little bit about your court

18:21

because as a set up top a lot

18:23

of the judges we've had on this

18:25

show sit on federal appeals courts

18:27

rates you are not as a federal appeals

18:30

court toast is what your courtroom looked like

18:32

and what kinds of cases you

18:35

were adjudicating so if a municipal

18:37

poor and so in new jersey newark municipal

18:40

court which is a low level of

18:42

sense poured his third quarter first

18:44

impression is the court that most

18:46

people willing d so you're looking

18:48

at traffic court you're looking at low level

18:50

criminal cases you're looking at housing

18:53

matters you're looking at true and

18:55

now the crazy thing about

18:57

map to give what you said it was the busy as

18:59

it was the biggest municipal court in

19:01

the state the thirteenth largest in

19:03

the country on it's hoped when it

19:05

was as easy as

19:07

for like five hundred

19:09

thousand

19:09

he would come to this court

19:13

because of this is an

19:15

urban city like nord many of

19:17

the cases that

19:17

that would go up to the superior court

19:20

which are more serious cases would get

19:22

downgraded to the municipal court

19:24

for resolutions particularly

19:27

criminal cases so i'm looking at

19:29

simple assault cases which

19:32

domestic violence cases were

19:34

looking at fast he

19:36

fears we're looking at drug

19:38

possession were looking they're having drug paraphernalia

19:41

we're looking at you

19:42

the i call it new jersey city cases

19:44

the wandering charge wander

19:46

to buy or sell drugs they

19:48

don't have to prove that you bought it but they just

19:50

have to prove that you were wondering are selling

19:53

to buy drugs prostitution solicitation

19:56

and solicitation went years without the

19:58

the dawn of the silly

19:59

the creation cases

20:01

those are the types of cases they come

20:03

through disorderly person's offenses

20:05

again which are cases that

20:08

really for me are the catch all

20:10

because it could be behavior that could

20:12

all the lab

20:14

most mentally ill people can be somewhere standing

20:16

screaming and speaking loudly and they get caught

20:18

and they're failing to comply with

20:20

an officer so then you also or looking

20:22

at

20:23

the quality of life

20:25

this is it also com their

20:27

city ordinances they come as a result

20:29

of legislation from city

20:32

council people so sleeping in

20:34

public drinking in

20:36

public smoking public

20:38

and those are the cases that typically get

20:40

your homeless people and then i like

20:43

the called the case

20:43

where are you that on the police officers nurse

20:46

how those people end up in the court i

20:48

can look at a cheesy the obstructing the administration

20:50

of justice i'm like ah that looks like you mouth

20:53

off at the

20:53

these officer right

20:55

now looking back is not

20:57

but it how folks end

20:59

up getting caught up in our system as

21:01

well having the audacity

21:03

to be

21:05

when the officer stopped see it is also

21:07

another issue so those

21:10

are the types of cases that end up

21:11

that severe cases and really i

21:14

think impact community their

21:16

their cases that most people

21:18

who get caught in the

21:19

no justice system will face and

21:21

that see people on this conveyor belt of in

21:24

just as

21:25

one of the points you make really

21:27

early in the book is this the folks

21:30

you see are not hardened criminals

21:32

you describe them quotes people

21:34

serving life sentences thirty days

21:36

at a time these are just folks who are

21:38

in a loop minor in

21:40

fact and self medicating mental illness

21:43

poverty and then i think you

21:45

talk about the role that you just

21:47

described the role that the police play

21:49

in that cycle so you describe the

21:51

role that the judges play in that cycle

21:54

in really heartbreaking terms again i'm gonna

21:56

quote edu you say we

21:58

weren't delivering justice

21:59

the edges were reduced the ineffective bill collectors

22:02

imposing finds we knew would never get paid

22:05

the most vulnerable in the community routinely

22:07

receive quality of life tickets for having

22:09

the audacity to exist when they could

22:11

not afford housing we the boy years

22:13

observing the worst parts their lives

22:16

we punish them for their hardships it was if

22:18

the green monster were lying in wait for

22:20

people to make a mistake as people

22:22

went about their day seem the justice

22:24

system officials could leap out in a duchess

22:27

moment and swallow them whole and

22:29

so what you just described in what you're describing

22:31

in your book is this is completely

22:33

predatory system where once

22:36

you are just in this

22:38

pond of out of luck miss for whatever

22:40

reason poverty it's race

22:43

mental illness a history

22:45

of former infractions it's

22:47

as though the this predatory and

22:49

will talk about this sort of actually

22:52

, poverty because it's part

22:55

of this systems we use has become

22:57

the person who just keeps tagging people

22:59

for that and that's not as you

23:01

describe it anything close to justice

23:04

since the absolute what's the

23:06

word it's the absolute opposite of do him

23:08

justice is the emphasis is to justice

23:10

fair good though that so as looking so

23:14

how is it sir

23:16

that

23:18

i take up

23:18

the ornate case

23:21

hm failure to comply

23:24

the officers

23:26

a man which is move now is

23:28

the mentally ill and having auditory

23:31

hallucinations and officer says

23:33

i don't know talking to me

23:36

that's real i

23:38

don't move on

23:39

because i'm homeless and i'm in my space

23:43

the sleeping and public what the public

23:45

is my food the public

23:47

is my home because instead

23:50

of addressing the social

23:52

ill which is my homelessness the

23:55

council legislators have decided

23:57

to criminalize it the

24:00

not address it that

24:02

criminalization of my homelessness

24:05

is now an ordinance the tells

24:07

the just to give me either thirty days in jail

24:09

or a fine and now the

24:11

prosecutor asked the just to give me

24:13

a fine and as and sure why not

24:16

because i have to move would chase right of that some

24:18

of them but i'm look at

24:20

this defendant and unlike madam prosecutor

24:22

have you noticed that he's not wearing a

24:24

shoe

24:26

if you have find out if he might

24:28

go by his shoe he might get a shoe

24:32

definitely not going to pay this

24:34

eighties our

24:35

the fbi and the thirty three dollars of court

24:37

that's not going to happen and

24:40

then what happens in this space this

24:42

that now by but as but i buy take

24:44

that sleep

24:45

that he doesn't serve the interests of just

24:48

so it's almost it's a lie so i'm engaged

24:51

in this hallucination

24:53

and then when and gets picked up for not paying the money

24:56

than i have to engage in another form of hallucination

24:58

which is revising upon payments or

25:00

even pay me this money because that's

25:02

literally the conversation when are you going to pay me

25:05

this money that you said all he wants

25:07

to do is get out of my give

25:10

you a hundred dollars when i get myself watches

25:13

i know isn't attack

25:16

even if there is a check i know that

25:18

i heroin addict as they good

25:20

then dollars divine hero

25:22

so again this conveyor

25:25

belt and region jason it and

25:27

it's embarrassing to kind of engaged in this

25:29

lot because that's what it felt like

25:31

lie that i was engaged and and

25:34

then you create you create where the city believes

25:36

that people have the money that we

25:38

knew did not exist to be paid

25:41

in the first time and so

25:43

once again once the backs of poor

25:45

people

25:46

the backs of the mentally ill on

25:48

the backs of the marginalize

25:51

the city is expecting revenue

25:54

and that's not service that's not

25:57

what legislators are call to do that

25:59

is not

25:59

the executive branch of caught to do

26:02

and because they are for people that nobody

26:04

cares about because they are marginalized people

26:07

this cycle and

26:08

the new

26:10

and so if you get a ticket

26:12

the traffic matter and you have

26:14

you pay that in pick yourself to your job because

26:16

it's cheaper to pay the tickets than it is

26:19

for you to consider the courthouse all day

26:21

but if you live in

26:24

a space that's heavily policed

26:27

so inner city of north their about

26:29

twenty six agencies right someone says

26:31

and complaints that includes the local

26:33

police new jersey transit police

26:36

the three you know

26:37

first cities that have their own police force the

26:39

county police conrail

26:41

amtrak's belief so even

26:43

if you work in north you but chances of you

26:45

being stopped by the police increases

26:48

but if you live there and if you live in the community

26:50

in a part of the city that is especially

26:53

police meaning

26:54

police operations are focus their

26:56

the your chances of being stopped

26:58

and getting caught up in this cycle

27:02

increase and as i mentioned earlier

27:04

he could be are you respond when the police

27:06

stop you was on you your

27:08

failure to clearer corner when they come

27:10

and you people have this assumption that all

27:12

if they got a ticket the police

27:14

well obviously they did something

27:16

the police got involved this the police

27:18

arrested you are obviously you're guilty

27:20

so that's why i quoted to like you

27:22

need to understand your communities when

27:24

i drive down the street and i see a

27:26

line at seven o'clock in the morning

27:29

and is a doctor's office that also has

27:31

a pharmacy connected to it then

27:33

i know that the people that are in the

27:35

line are addicted the heroin

27:38

and opioid what are they given

27:40

away for free in this space

27:43

what happened know is that people have

27:45

medicaid and medicare

27:46

and you can give them a prescription for

27:48

fifty six the time

27:51

in that those fifty six oxycontin

27:53

so now going to be on the streets

27:55

it's not

27:56

just looking at the low hanging fruit because

27:58

that's what we get

27:59

i'm concerned about the start of

28:02

describing this and how this impacts

28:04

the drugs that are in my community it's

28:07

not as

28:08

queen of people

28:09

but again if we to sell all these people

28:11

are bad that's why the opioid crisis with

28:14

interesting because once people started

28:16

to see their children it was never crisis

28:18

to me because i have been serving the white

28:20

children from wealthy suburb that we're taking the bus

28:23

to north to buy drugs and then i was telling them

28:25

are you come here even to do

28:26

the unity service here because lol

28:28

we're doing community service i knew that an older

28:31

heroin addict was going to be in their ear about this

28:33

is what your life has been to look like and i

28:35

was getting on the bus to drug treatment

28:37

as well so it's more complicated

28:39

than these little presumptions that we have

28:41

about people and it has to

28:44

be important event is it's not

28:46

certain time even if it isn't someone

28:48

who looks like you because those

28:50

same

28:50

help on

28:51

drug laws now apply

28:54

to the children of the wealthy you are coming food

28:56

system so now we're looking at these things differently

28:58

i'm in my head connecting everything you're saying

29:00

about criminalizing poverty to

29:02

conversations we have had on this show with

29:04

people like needed gupta

29:06

the leadership com friends now the

29:08

justice department's who just talk

29:11

about the ways in which we saw

29:13

that ferguson and the report

29:15

around ferguson would blow open

29:18

the ways in which if

29:20

, were policing for profit and money

29:22

and season finds the system cannot

29:24

possibly have the correct incentive and

29:27

one of the things i love in your book and your descriptions

29:29

even now of what you saw in newark

29:32

is that the fallacy that this only

29:34

happened in ferguson is a fallacy

29:36

that it's everywhere before we

29:38

talk too much about the sort

29:41

of of of your book

29:43

is this notion of procedural justice

29:45

it's the deaths of all the work

29:47

you're doing on reforming the justice

29:49

system and i wanted just

29:53

give you a moment to talk about it because i think

29:55

there is gonna be a reflexive

29:57

tendency you address

29:59

today this is just some flabby

30:02

feel good sydney of kind

30:05

, there's no me on the bones

30:07

here and you start with me

30:09

on the bones and you start with tom

30:11

tyler the yell psychologist who

30:14

was thinking about this back in the seventies

30:16

and all of the the

30:20

meaningful criminal justice reading

30:22

you've been doing that informs

30:24

the ways you put procedural

30:27

justice into action so i wanna give you

30:29

an opportunity here to sort of describe

30:32

what it is define what it what tell

30:34

us what it means and really

30:37

help us understand that this is athletes

30:39

under girded by meaningful

30:42

criminal justice research this isn't

30:44

just feel good

30:46

hippy dippy status of

30:48

physics with for that specific

30:51

be the piece of piece love that so

30:53

i didn't even realize that

30:54

practicing procedural justice

30:56

pick idea that if people believe

30:59

if they perceive as the understand that they're being

31:01

too it with dignity and respect by

31:04

the justice system

31:05

that not only does it increase

31:07

the public's trust in that sense the

31:09

system but it also increases

31:11

compliance with the law

31:13

and it also increases compliance with

31:16

judges the seizure

31:18

even when the judge rules against them so that

31:20

also includes doesn't

31:22

the orders to behave in a particular

31:24

way to do certain things to bring information

31:27

to court

31:28

and

31:29

they found that

31:31

this idea of treating people with dignity

31:33

and respect

31:35

that sounds simple in it is a simple

31:38

idea

31:38

actually one of the last things

31:40

that

31:41

and when people come to our justice

31:43

system and

31:44

from the movies that they walk into court

31:47

how they're treated by security

31:50

this , of what justice

31:52

is begins with the first contact

31:55

with police and how

31:57

it gets this trust in the system further

31:59

deteriorate

31:59

the based on how many contacts and i

32:02

describe it my kids have

32:04

this idea

32:04

walking into the courthouse

32:06

to be heard

32:08

this is before you

32:10

required whether you are pleading guilty

32:12

or innocent and how

32:14

people are mistreated by the process

32:16

and disrespected by the process

32:19

i always say that the traffic cases are sometimes

32:21

the most hospital because people accompany

32:23

court sue

32:26

right about

32:27

the principle of the matter how they were

32:29

treated by the police officer

32:31

the other they were mistreated and

32:33

so the principles of

32:35

procedural justice or one giving

32:37

people voice and opportunities to

32:40

speak even when you're

32:42

not gonna let them

32:42

beat explaining why that's a sign of

32:44

respect i used as is also

32:47

to help give people boy

32:49

import why we should care of that

32:51

they have something to say in this process

32:53

and we should care because

32:56

the whole criminal action the whole action

32:58

is greater than just the allegation that to see

33:00

before you it's bigger than

33:02

that

33:04

that's why voices important people

33:06

come to quit they want you to hear what happened

33:08

to them why they shouldn't

33:10

be here why this other person in this

33:12

includes victims the state projects

33:15

the entire process from victims and

33:17

for the victimizers them in the

33:19

process and so this other idea

33:21

of neutrality the process has

33:23

to be neutral s has to

33:25

be as we engage in this process

33:27

is well and that includes how

33:30

judges speak so when

33:33

you look at these studies behind why

33:36

procedural justice is a set this one

33:38

of the mean things is the relationship

33:40

between the the defended and the jaws

33:43

and so how judges speak have judges

33:45

behaved as an idea of neutrality

33:47

a significant most studies think that they are baby

33:50

was neutrality but it's what happens

33:52

when people come into your courtroom and they are processes

33:55

that you're allowed to take quite

33:56

alfred thing cases at

33:59

the bench

33:59

mcfadden

34:01

that come to the bench the here and there people

34:03

are thinking why is is that they have to go

34:05

up there and have this secrecy

34:06

meeting about my teeth why can't

34:09

we hear

34:10

why can i go up there when you go

34:12

in the back is even worse you can't even see

34:14

what's happening in this process can

34:16

judges do it absolutely does

34:19

it take away from this idea of what is

34:21

being so absolutely yes

34:23

this idea that in most of our cases

34:26

we ain't private attorney first

34:29

becomes accordingly

34:29

the people's private matters first will we

34:31

know that we take pride

34:33

attorneys matters first because they

34:35

we have cases another course and you don't want to

34:37

hold up the entire states process

34:39

of the person sitting in your courses representing

34:42

themselves as like

34:43

so this person's going to get a better deal

34:46

because look at that that turn it came

34:48

in here twenty minutes late i've been here for an hour

34:50

and that case gets to go first how

34:52

the judge engages with the airport

34:55

staff

34:55

they're joking around you not an officer

34:59

the person so if the judge been

35:01

to tell me the thief officer

35:04

what does it look nicer person sometimes

35:06

i've been in a court where the just

35:08

looked at the officer

35:11

who made a recommendation and division

35:13

and mike foods now the officer

35:15

gets to arrest and silva just

35:17

how to determine what to do with the case

35:20

i know the it does didn't even think that

35:22

the people

35:22

the koran were considering it but it was very

35:24

the obvious then there's this

35:27

really significant principle which is

35:29

understanding the process

35:31

understanding what's expected of you understanding

35:35

what's required

35:36

have you understand and what

35:38

the people are talking about i like to see

35:40

them lethal eases the language we use

35:43

to conceive

35:43

you know the running joke is the

35:45

just as

35:47

the person are you preceding

35:49

pro se in person says no joseph

35:51

prosecutors the pro an amateur

35:54

sister in law that says nice

35:56

and face is i who representing yourself

35:59

why you

35:59

i'm wondering why is it difficult

36:02

to do that and many of us

36:04

that's just don't think we have a

36:06

responsibility to x elaine

36:09

bee sting and

36:11

so how can you sure

36:13

that the process is fair people don't

36:15

understand and you haven't done anything

36:18

to ensure that they can understand

36:20

but then you definitely want to punch them when

36:22

they don't comply with your orders you

36:25

definitely do that even though you confuse the

36:27

hell out of them the entire zombies

36:29

in court there's a part of the book that

36:31

talk about speed court a nice compare

36:33

the my experience with b d c

36:36

how do you know what just happened and

36:39

we're looking at consequences

36:41

that take away people's finances

36:43

and take away the

36:44

liberty why is it not significant

36:47

and the last principle which is respect

36:50

making sure that people that being

36:52

treated risk

36:55

that requires you to know that say the

36:57

morning mean something

36:59

the morning there's a jurisdiction that's

37:01

the judges are told that if they are going

37:03

to make a negative his ruling

37:06

for the first semi sending them to jail

37:08

not returning their bill and posing a bath

37:10

that they're not to look the person in the ice

37:13

yikes

37:15

that to look them in the i promised myself

37:17

that no matter what i

37:19

did on the best i would look people in the i

37:21

because if i can't look them in the eye

37:22

need to rethink the decision that i'm make

37:24

right that's on me now and then

37:28

this is it said

37:29

you can read and write can sue when they're having

37:31

difficulty understand

37:33

the information but oh yeah

37:35

have to censor you having

37:38

a common understanding the information

37:40

in the documents we realize there's a lucy

37:42

issue

37:44

literacy they can't read your order so they

37:46

can't comply with any of [unk]

37:48

and literally calling people

37:50

what they wanna be called when they

37:51

to court

37:53

are you that

37:54

challenging

37:56

sometimes people think that is they treat

37:58

people respectfully it's

37:59

the miniatures them and this the actual

38:02

opposite it makes you think earth

38:04

i love that respect is contagious

38:07

i found that when i treated people

38:09

respectfully fox said un quote

38:11

from and it's like wow that is really

38:14

respectful so i'm going to behave differently

38:16

when differently get up there so they had this expectation

38:18

that everybody would be treated the same steaks

38:20

best advantage because they saw it before they

38:22

got up

38:23

and they also be heat respectful

38:26

and so

38:28

the they do these studies around procedural

38:30

just as they found that there was a significant

38:32

reduction they sometimes mostly

38:34

grub horse

38:35

because those judges

38:37

the procedure justice versus the traditional

38:40

force

38:41

what they found that within eighteen months

38:43

at that there was a significant reduction

38:45

in the use

38:46

drugs are reported

38:48

because these folks healthy relationship

38:50

i respect the suggested

38:53

there's cared about them the just saw them

38:55

and i thought the lot about the disclosure

38:57

of this idea that you should see people and

39:00

seer them so these are all

39:02

required minutes required

39:03

the dream

39:04

definitely shouldn't be optional but i think

39:06

that we as such as think that when i

39:08

see and suffer fools answer

39:12

i know the law and

39:14

i'm confused about this process

39:17

the to this lay person

39:19

i understand in this process

39:22

the most importantly your staff

39:24

also has to begin

39:26

has to practices because before you get

39:28

on the bench people have already made a decision

39:31

about what kind of just

39:32

they're going to receive

39:33

and what we know is i told you that the

39:35

bench magnifies who you

39:38

are the staff will be whatever

39:40

the judges

39:41

follow your lead

39:43

i think that's in any organization whatever

39:45

is happening at the top as which will receive

39:48

as it trickles down severe respectful

39:50

does your staff will also be respectful

39:52

but it also requires the just to engage

39:54

in leadership if i call this person

39:56

mr smith you can call him johnny

39:59

the

39:59

everybody the same and respectfully

40:02

and this place even for me you know

40:04

respect meant that i had to see the whole

40:06

courtroom like my living room and if you come to my

40:08

house we treat everybody the same

40:10

because i've invited them here they've been

40:12

i'm in sister my court

40:13

they decide not to come and i remember

40:16

having an incident where somebody was chuckling

40:18

out a transgender person him within

40:20

the facts

40:22

and i get arrested

40:24

are you dress the same thing personally mental

40:26

health came in they were talking to themselves i

40:28

addressed to because this is my court room

40:31

and i set the standard for how people behave

40:33

here you can have a seat outside if you can

40:36

be respectful of the people here but this is a safe

40:38

space because i was folks the come here

40:42

pretty to us as you can do it for free

40:44

such as you can do it for free

40:46

and does this have had success

40:49

random world doing just tweet

40:51

the what they do when court and there's

40:54

a study that shows that judges

40:55

when women are asked the question to

40:58

do to the next question quickly

41:00

they don't give him enough time to answer the question

41:03

and so the judge understanding

41:06

that says oh hold on a have to check

41:08

me

41:09

if you

41:10

your bias is your

41:13

perceptions of

41:14

people are and you have to be is i

41:16

hope you see this in the book that this

41:19

i'm constantly checking the either

41:22

i'm constantly reminding myself

41:24

to check the ego i'm constantly

41:27

reminding myself that this doesn't

41:29

always mean that we will be

41:31

right back after this short break

41:34

hi there i'm stephen colbert host

41:37

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41:39

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41:40

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41:41

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42:00

spotify blue fi or wherever

42:02

you get your palm

42:06

i was really struck by something

42:08

you just said and something he said in the book

42:10

about how one of the components

42:14

of , you do justice is

42:16

this a burden of explanation

42:18

that you need

42:20

to explain if your sentencing

42:22

someone why they

42:25

are receiving a sentence what

42:27

they can do with if they want

42:29

to six some of this and

42:32

it's really time to with

42:35

something that something heard judge jackson

42:37

say again and again and again again

42:39

and confirmation hearings that when

42:41

she wrote an opinion as

42:43

a district court judge as a sentencing

42:45

judge it was essential

42:48

to her this a party who was being

42:51

even just as at her hand understand

42:54

how the system worked and why she was doing

42:57

what she was doing and i think because

42:59

i read your book before i watch

43:01

the confirmation hearings i'm so

43:03

struck by how again

43:06

as you're saying it's free it's simple

43:08

but if you want people to believe

43:11

that this justice system serves them

43:13

you have to explain to them that

43:15

it's working for them even when

43:18

they are the sort of recipient of what

43:20

feels i'm just and it does

43:22

feel as though i guess i it's

43:24

a question i would love to address to justice

43:27

brown jackson but i will address it to you

43:29

it is so important especially

43:32

, you come from communities

43:34

a think that's what's glaring to me where

43:36

people ignore you were people ignored

43:39

you're right to have information

43:42

will you feel that you've never done

43:44

enough information to make sure that

43:46

everybody under

43:48

stands you know and

43:51

it is critical because to

43:53

me i didn't wanna be on the bench and bench

43:55

irrelevant and be felt your skin

43:57

on the beds smashing people are giving

43:59

them

43:59

harsh sentences in two days they get out there

44:02

doing the same things that

44:03

if you are relevant as a jet

44:05

but you can not expect people

44:07

to do what you want them to do is

44:09

they don't understand what it is they

44:11

need to do and that

44:13

also goes to this point the people as salvageable

44:15

because when they were given the information

44:18

to do better they did better when

44:20

they were given the information and understood

44:22

the consequences of know

44:24

coming back to court they said on hold on

44:26

the dummy

44:27

if i do these things

44:29

it doesn't let me do this then okay let

44:31

me try they would at least

44:33

try and remember one woman

44:36

who said she got an opportunity

44:38

and i talked to

44:39

what her in the book to

44:41

be on the prostitution strove

44:43

for twenty years has nobody

44:46

offered me assistance

44:49

nobody ever offered me help

44:53

and while initially she didn't accept

44:55

it was he came back the

44:57

georgia offering me an opportunity

45:00

the do something different i

45:03

can try and then she will send me to jail

45:05

because thought to citizens in

45:07

that's what i have explained the law tells

45:09

me to send you to jail on site

45:12

because

45:12

the all of these things on your record

45:16

this is your appetite

45:17

the to do better

45:18

and so this idea

45:20

that people see why shouldn't they understand

45:23

just because they have issues with

45:25

literacy does it mean i should punish them

45:28

for that's just because they

45:30

don't have a college degrees the justices

45:32

some okay

45:35

with punishing people because

45:38

they don't understand because they're not as as

45:40

you trade so who is it meant to serve who

45:43

was it meant to serve and that's what i

45:45

want judges the understands your irrelevant

45:48

if people are not doing what you tell them

45:50

to do and they're not doing it then that

45:52

disobeying orders because they're bad

45:55

the disobeying orders they will make sense and

45:58

you're not telling them what to do and

46:00

to that's why i get angry that lot of things the school

46:02

itself but if you have

46:04

the ability the bring them

46:07

closer and in line with

46:09

serving the community is the other things we

46:11

are not serving community the if we

46:13

are not getting people to be compliant

46:15

with are didn't do the right things when they go back

46:18

into the our community so just

46:20

get all we get off the hook were

46:22

off the hook for everything because people

46:25

don't look at

46:26

whether or not we're really reducing

46:28

crime in our communities they just l

46:30

he's a tough just but what does that mean what

46:34

does that mean who's grading you justice

46:36

has to be held accountable we have to do

46:38

the right seen for the community

46:40

as well because we serve them

46:42

but i could talk to for

46:44

twelve more years and i have city

46:46

where questions but i am mindful

46:49

of your time and i think i wanna ask

46:51

you this is kind

46:53

of a a an employee class him

46:55

but it tugs at me as i read

46:58

mm and as a read your book preparing

47:00

for this interview i'm ,

47:02

interviewing justice ginsburg

47:05

years ago ago she

47:07

was describing the south african constitution

47:10

the new constitution but she said him

47:12

a lot of what he was better than the us

47:14

constitution and one other thing seemed loved

47:16

about it was it it really enshrined

47:19

in embodied this principle of principle

47:22

and as i said at the top you know dignity

47:24

and mean justice kennedy talks about

47:26

it we hear about it

47:29

constantly but it's sort

47:31

of another one of those notions that is

47:33

both everything and nothing it's everywhere

47:35

and nowhere we talk about it and

47:38

he has no real legal force and

47:40

yet your book ultimately

47:42

is about maybe

47:44

and the ways in which is

47:47

the law is not serving

47:49

human dignity it's not serving at all

47:52

and i really want you to amplify

47:55

, the word dignity is in your title

47:57

i want you to amplify used hurts

48:00

so much about the kinds of folks who have come before

48:02

you and just took to listeners

48:04

this is the tip of the

48:06

or because the book describes so

48:08

many people

48:09

who are robbed of dignity at every

48:12

turn is is finally get a moment

48:14

of dignity in your court room but i want

48:16

you to explain why

48:18

it is that you who went

48:20

to law school who worked within

48:22

the law and then became a judge think

48:25

that dignity this

48:27

kind of flabby notion

48:30

is

48:30

cornerstone of the american

48:33

judicial system and criminal justice system

48:35

what does it mean to you i'll tell you this

48:38

the movie

48:40

there's important in law in the justice

48:42

system because one of the things that

48:44

the justice system does is that ross

48:47

people love their dignity we

48:49

acknowledge that dignity is important

48:52

because one of the greatest things that we

48:54

do

48:56

diminish it

48:57

when people come to our system

48:59

right so it's almost a lie when

49:01

we say ah it's that important

49:04

is very important because it's one of the things

49:06

that we make sure

49:07

people leave with

49:10

whether it sending them to prison and

49:12

the conditions that we send them to lizards

49:15

whether it's the conditions and the treatment

49:17

that people go through in the process

49:20

and that is why it is our responsibility

49:23

to heal these communities and to transform

49:25

justice because we are

49:28

deliberately

49:31

taking it away from people who come through our

49:34

and some dignity is

49:36

the respect that we give people

49:38

the idea that people understand

49:41

the process was expected me

49:43

that were respecting their dignity as

49:45

human beings

49:48

why is it okay everywhere else

49:50

in the world that people understand when

49:52

we in days them

49:53

that for the justice system

49:55

why does the justice system not have to

49:57

do that

49:59

why

49:59

okay that people don't get

50:02

to speak a voice or hear that they'll

50:04

get their yeah because

50:06

when i listen to you

50:09

when i

50:10

the knowledge that you

50:11

we're prospectus

50:13

is important that

50:16

means i'm acknowledging your dignity

50:18

as a human being

50:20

this is a right that you if a human

50:22

rights to be able to walk around with

50:25

your head held high to some

50:27

level of degree believing that

50:29

you master

50:31

and so much what we do with the justice system

50:33

tell people they don't matter whether they're guilty

50:35

or not

50:37

i'm so this idea

50:39

of dignity being a cornerstone

50:42

if we can spend so much time robbing

50:44

people as it this doesn't look

50:46

different the when they say

50:48

that are the best is absent or it's not

50:50

apps and because we go to great lengths

50:53

to reduce people for nothing this

50:55

excessive use of force why do we have

50:58

to use force on certain people unarmed black

51:00

men and other people don't get it

51:02

and white men

51:05

right you know our buffalo happened

51:08

and when people say that these principles

51:11

you can't expect people to do it i use

51:13

buffalo as an example people

51:15

know how to treat folks offices

51:17

know how to treat folks when they engage them

51:20

look at how many armed white men gets

51:22

walk away

51:24

the murder spree with their allies

51:28

why use is that an unarmed person

51:30

of color

51:32

the treated differently

51:34

and it because of how we

51:36

green folks to induce people

51:38

who are and

51:39

the new that the system and

51:41

so

51:42

it is important that we you were poor

51:45

when we punish you for to get were dismissing

51:48

your dignity we know that

51:50

when we write laws legislators

51:52

that is going to impact certain people

51:55

where done others particularly poor

51:57

people

51:59

don't care so if we don't care

52:02

we reduce their dignity but if we get

52:04

can we

52:05

prefer dignity and get them to be

52:08

productive members of society but then

52:10

we get to be better the much of my

52:12

book i'm talking about dignity but i'm talking

52:14

about what we need to do to pour

52:16

into people because we extracted

52:19

from people that's what struck me the most

52:21

why my pacifists have to be

52:23

so undignified why do i have

52:25

to reduce people to deliver

52:27

justice i don't

52:29

what been done customarily because

52:31

we don't

52:32

the the humanity in the people that come before

52:35

us so i insist that everybody

52:37

see folks if i'm with your employees

52:40

and your organization's why do

52:42

you respond in one particular

52:44

way to certain stimuli

52:45

yes dignity is significant

52:48

because we spend so much time

52:50

that thing it from people in our criminal justice

52:52

system

52:53

try punishing them disproportionately

52:56

for offenses so

52:59

if the power of infusing

53:01

dignity back into our system

53:03

and listen when i say to a person in court

53:06

i'm so proud of you because they've done

53:08

something that they didn't think the states that do

53:11

come to court on time go

53:13

to a job interview and they say just some problems

53:15

though

53:18

what a new emotion

53:20

right but that goes back to his pride

53:22

in having

53:23

the media myself

53:25

now in touch with that emotion that i

53:27

feel respectful of why

53:29

yeah and now i can go back into society

53:32

and maybe six that six can make use of

53:34

so that's why this book this about the

53:36

power of dignity making

53:39

dignity making priority dignity and respect

53:41

and priority

53:41

your results and outcomes are different

53:44

it is significant because it it wasn't significantly

53:47

would

53:47

extracted from people when making to our

53:49

system

53:50

judge crap the reason i love

53:52

that so minds

53:56

the read it goes right back to

53:58

where we started which is a big the as a two

54:00

way street and met when i

54:03

write and think about the supreme court

54:06

the justices who are demanding respect

54:08

and regard and dignity for

54:11

the institution but who

54:13

don't put into practice all these principles

54:16

we've been talking about for an hour about

54:18

seen people and hearing people

54:21

and treating them neutrally

54:23

and fairly and having predictable

54:26

outcomes all of the tenets big

54:28

you have wound through the way you

54:30

deliver justice dignity goes both

54:32

ways and it's not ways thing you

54:34

can demand as demand judge it's a thing you

54:36

have to on and what you

54:39

are trying to describe trying this book

54:41

this this to waste three were both

54:43

sides need to buy in

54:46

and you are doing the work of

54:48

saying i'm in the middle of this

54:50

trying to get both sides to buy and so

54:52

i love where you landed

54:54

because i think it's also were

54:57

really every judge every court up

54:59

to and including the supreme court needs

55:01

to land if we're going to repair

55:04

this crisis of faith and the judicial system

55:06

absolutely a new tough from much about

55:13

over them pay must see you as

55:16

illegitimate authorities to

55:18

impose rules and regulations

55:20

so when the supreme court

55:22

not care about it's legitimacy

55:25

in the eyes of the people that

55:28

trickles down to the entire system

55:31

people to know that they are

55:33

hurts people also have to know

55:35

that this predictability and these

55:37

decisions that are coming out the president

55:39

of came before came that one

55:42

thing and and now i show up and it's different

55:45

it can't be people have to know that

55:47

if my of i do that this is what's gonna

55:49

happen to me

55:50

it can't be different based on my raise the cap

55:52

bit different based on my economics s it can't

55:54

be difference because of any of those reserves

55:58

and it's has to be saved

55:59

they let me tell you people know

56:01

the new being treated fairly and not they

56:04

know fairly so you can lie about

56:07

the people know when they're being treated fairly

56:09

and they know when your decisions that they

56:11

are they know when it's not fair and

56:14

they know when the as language

56:16

in these opinions that eat one at one

56:18

of the things that so many of the

56:19

that struck me about

56:21

the that in

56:23

with know this week

56:25

map for the line which

56:28

was towards the previous

56:31

to c

56:34

oh

56:38

at once

56:40

that really need to choose to say that

56:43

that somebody

56:45

elsa shafer the highest court

56:47

so if you have to respect as why isn't anybody

56:49

else as the respect this but then why

56:51

should be fun to respect you

56:54

is it was a so many things

56:56

that that's i couldn't semi you know

56:58

when you're reading something and you have to walk away

57:02

every , with makes be read

57:05

out with my experience and

57:08

going back the parts of it and i'm like but that's

57:10

natural

57:11

you don't mean that's not too because you just said

57:13

that if you work concerned about popular

57:15

opinion you wouldn't written this

57:17

the nightfall worry about the legitimacy

57:20

of the entire just some because on top

57:22

of it's be the barrage of things

57:24

that people the average citizen sees

57:27

the has the highest court of the land

57:30

the disregarded because of it's own actions

57:32

of because of the politicization that

57:34

we're seeing and as it's just really

57:37

creates also that for me because

57:41

at the very end of the people who are now

57:43

having to deliver justice i'm having to

57:45

receive

57:47

they know doesn't feel like justice

57:50

and discriminate

57:51

the thing once again settlers dealing

57:53

with the social ill

57:55

now would you thousand to say

57:58

what do besides do we criminalize

58:01

the behavior of our most

58:02

the honorable

58:04

victimized the victim once again

58:06

so

58:08

i worry i'm worried and worried

58:10

but i will continue to fight with you

58:12

that will continue to be on the frontlines

58:15

you the honorable

58:17

the the a prat served as the chief

58:20

judge of the newark municipal courts

58:22

is a professor at the rutgers newark

58:24

school of criminal justice and has taught

58:26

at the referee school of law for ted

58:28

talk how judges can show respect

58:31

has been viewed over thirty million times

58:33

and this new book the power of dignity

58:35

was published this may i

58:37

feel press judge pratt says

58:40

yes

58:44

and that is a rap for this episode

58:46

of and again thank you so very much

58:48

for listening in and thank you always

58:50

for your letters and your questions you

58:53

can keep in touch at and it gets athlete

58:55

dot com or you can always find that and facebook

58:58

dot com

59:05

murray it

59:05

the president of audio and then

59:08

richmond is

59:09

the director of operations

59:10

podcasts athlete we'll be

59:12

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59:13

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59:16

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