0:07

[MUSIC PLAYS] I have a heart full of questions quieting

0:09

all my suggestions. What

0:12

is the meaning of Christian in this American life?

0:17

I'm feeling awfully foolish

0:19

spending my life on a message.

0:23

I look around and I wonder ever if I heard it right. [MUSIC STOPS]

0:27

Welcome to the (A)Millennial podcast, where

0:30

we have theological conversations for today's

0:32

world. I'm your host, Amy Mantravadi,

0:35

coming to you live from Dayton, Ohio, the

0:37

surfing capital of Ohio. Now

0:39

those of you who are more keenly aware of geographic

0:42

realities may be thinking, "Where does one

0:44

surf in Dayton, Ohio? It's nowhere near

0:46

the ocean. It's not even close to Lake Erie."

0:48

Right you are,

0:50

but we Daytonians are nothing if

0:53

not persistent in the face of geographic

0:55

obstacles. As it turns out,

0:57

you can surf on rivers too, and in the past

0:59

few years, the local parks organization

1:01

has invested in the creation of two different

1:03

water features on the Great Miami River downtown

1:06

with separate entry points depending on one's skill

1:08

level. The BBC reported

1:11

last fall on an explosion in interest

1:13

due to the current COVID pandemic, which

1:15

has caused many who would have traveled out of state

1:17

to remain at home. There is a thriving

1:19

business in surfing lessons and one store

1:21

nearby reports that people are buying paddleboards

1:24

faster than they can stock them. My

1:26

husband and I were able to witness a group of people

1:28

kayaking on one of the water features recently,

1:31

and I can confirm that they seemed at least

1:33

moderately pleased. Huntington

1:35

Beach had better watch its back. Today,

1:38

I'm going to be speaking with Jen Oshman, author

1:41

of the book Enough about Me: Finding

1:43

Lasting Joy in the Age of Self. When

1:45

I first read the title, I thought it sounded

1:47

like a great book for other people to read. I

1:50

kid, I kid. I'm sure the world

1:52

has certainly had enough of me. Selfishness,

1:54

self-obsession, and pride lay at

1:56

the root of every sin in one way or another.

1:59

They're also very depressing ways to live your life.

2:02

However, Western society - by which

2:04

I mean primarily Europe, North America,

2:06

and other parts of the world primarily influenced

2:09

by them - has put the individual on

2:11

the highest pedestal, as opposed to

2:13

Eastern or other historic societies

2:15

that tend to put the family, clan, or society

2:17

in that position. While this has led to

2:20

some very important and beneficial protections

2:22

for individual freedoms, it has also

2:24

led to us becoming increasingly self-obsessed, dependent

2:27

on our own personal efforts for meaning and

2:29

satisfaction in life. Scripture, on

2:32

the other hand, respects the individual

2:34

but puts God in first place. In

2:37

his Epistle to the Galatians, the Apostle

2:39

Paul made one of the strongest cases in Scripture

2:41

for the insufficiency of self-effort. He

2:44

wrote that attempting to perfectly keep the commandments

2:46

of God - collectively known as the Law

2:48

- by your own power will only

2:50

result in failure. Instead,

2:52

we must submit ourselves to Christ and find

2:54

our identity in him as our savior. Here's

2:57

what he says in one key passage. "I

3:01

have been crucified with Christ and

3:03

it is no longer I who live, but Christ

3:05

lives in me, and the life which I

3:07

now live in the flesh, I live by

3:09

faith in the son of God who loved

3:11

me and gave himself up for me. I

3:14

do not nullify the grace of God, for

3:16

if righteousness comes through the law, then

3:18

Christ died needlessly." Contrary

3:21

to our culture, which is constantly preaching

3:23

a message of self-empowerment, the message

3:25

of the Bible is that we can't do it,

3:28

but Christ has already done it on our behalf.

3:31

That is incredibly humbling, but also

3:33

gloriously freeing. Listen on

3:35

to hear my discussion with Jen about how we

3:37

can start focusing less on ourselves and

3:39

more on the God who has saved us.

3:42

[MUSICAL INTERLUDE]

3:52

And I am here with Christian author

3:54

Jen Oshman. Jen

3:56

and her husband served for many years

3:58

as missionaries, first in Okinawa,

4:00

Japan, and later as church planters

4:03

in the Czech Republic - also known as Czechia

4:04

- with Pioneers

4:06

International. During that

4:09

time, she was active in teaching, discipling,

4:11

and counseling women. In 2015,

4:14

their family that includes four daughters returned

4:17

to live in Colorado and planted a church,

4:19

Redemption Parker, with the Acts 29

4:21

network. She and her husband both

4:24

remained in support roles with Pioneers International.

4:27

Jen is also an avid writer, which is what

4:29

brings her on the program today. Her articles

4:31

have been shared by The Gospel Coalition,

4:33

Desiring God, Risen Motherhood, and

4:36

Tim Challies, among others. The past

4:38

two years have been big ones for Jen as she

4:40

launched a podcast called All Things

4:43

in which she applies Christian truth to pressing issues

4:45

of the day, and she also published her first

4:47

book, Enough about Me, which we'll be talking

4:50

about today. You can find her on

4:52

social media on Twitter and Instagram

4:54

@JenOshman and on Facebook Jennifer.OwenOshman

5:00

and her website is www.

5:05

jenoshman .com . Well, welcome to the program, Jen.

5:07

I'm so glad to have you on.

5:08

Oh, thank you so much. It's my joy. Thanks

5:10

for having me.

5:12

Well, I mentioned

5:14

that you spent time serving with your family

5:16

as missionaries, and you've also

5:18

written about how you taught your daughters to eat

5:21

whatever food was put in front

5:23

of them, because you were served a wide

5:25

variety of meals in your time abroad

5:27

and didn't want to offend anyone. All

5:30

of this led me to wonder, what is

5:32

the oddest food you've ever had

5:34

to eat during your time overseas?

5:36

Oh my gosh. That is a funny question.

5:39

Well, you're right. I mean, having these kids in Asia

5:41

and then taking them to Europe, we have

5:43

eaten all kinds of things. I

5:46

think the hardest thing for

5:48

me to stomach and

5:50

get down was once in Japan

5:52

I was served squid ink pasta, and

5:56

the ink sauce is very

5:58

black and it

6:01

dyes your teeth and your tongue and your lips

6:03

black, and it kind of bleeds from

6:05

your lips onto your skin

6:07

as well and kind of spreads. And so it's

6:10

just visually so hard

6:12

to eat something like that and then sort of feel

6:14

it and see it out of the periphery

6:16

of your eye on your face. I got

6:18

it down, but it was not easy.

6:21

Yeah. I've never had that, but I

6:23

I've heard a little bit about it, so maybe

6:26

someday I'll have to try it. I was

6:28

also wondering if you had ever

6:30

eaten uni while you were

6:32

in Japan.

6:34

What is uni? I don't know off the top of my head .

6:36

So it's...And you know, Okinawa

6:38

is a little different maybe than the mainland of

6:41

Japan as well, but uni is

6:45

the one thing that my husband

6:47

has tried that he said he would never have again. It

6:50

is a sushi which is sea

6:52

urchin. So he

6:55

had it -

6:55

Yeah, I've seen it.

6:57

He had it many years ago, and then

7:00

about a year or two ago,

7:02

we were out to a Japanese restaurant

7:04

with some friends and he was persuaded

7:06

to try it again, thinking maybe the first time

7:09

it had just gone bad or something. No,

7:11

he still didn't like it.

7:14

Wow. Well, I respect him for trying

7:16

twice cause I don't - I've never tried it even once.

7:18

I definitely have seen it, but never ordered it.

7:21

Yeah, and I tried it, but I

7:23

don't remember anything about how it tasted.

7:27

Well, maybe that's good.

7:28

Yeah. Anyway, I just

7:30

thought that would be interesting place to

7:32

start off: with the wonderful world

7:34

of strange foods. So

7:38

diving in then to a discussion about

7:40

your book. My own spiritual

7:42

journey has involved a long

7:44

process of realizing just how

7:48

self-focused I am in so many areas of my

7:50

life. This problem is certainly

7:52

not unique to me as selfishness

7:55

and pride lies at the heart really of all

7:57

sin, but you point out in your book

7:59

that there are things in the West

8:01

and Western culture that tend to lead

8:03

us to become more self -focused. Speaking

8:06

to those of your own generation, you write

8:08

that, "You and I

8:10

were born into an age that triumphed

8:12

relativism and individualism. The

8:15

culture of our childhoods was decidedly

8:17

anti-authoritarian. Rather

8:19

than discovering the objective truth, we were

8:22

taught to define our own subjective

8:24

truth. Unlike millennia of generations

8:26

before us, we set out not

8:28

to uncover the meaning of life, but to give

8:30

our lives their own meaning. We've

8:32

triumphed freedom as our highest good.

8:35

Individual freedom trumps all

8:37

former societal norms and values. It

8:39

is ultimate." So

8:42

as I mentioned, you've spent time as a missionary

8:44

in Japan and the Czech Republic, two

8:46

cultures that in their own ways are very

8:48

different from the United States. So

8:51

do you think these tendencies

8:53

toward relativism individualism

8:56

and what I'll call libertarianism

8:58

-though not in the sense of the political

9:00

party - are unique to certain

9:02

places in the West or do they have an increasing

9:05

pull throughout the whole world?

9:08

Yeah, you know, it's funny having lived in

9:10

Asia and Europe - and obviously Asia is

9:12

wide and diverse and so is Europe - but

9:15

what was so fascinating is there are some

9:17

striking similarities between

9:19

the Japanese culture and the Czech culture,

9:22

which we did not anticipate, but

9:24

some just really interesting things: like for one

9:26

neither people group ever wears

9:28

shoes in their home, or they all

9:31

take, no matter what, if you're in Czech or Japan,

9:33

you take off your shoes. When you enter any

9:35

house or even school buildings and office buildings,

9:38

there are certain indoor shoes that you switch to

9:40

when you get to that building. Also both

9:43

cultures speak really softly.

9:45

It's rude to speak really loudly

9:47

and they speak with their mouths

9:49

moving sort of minimally. Whereas

9:52

in the Czech Republic, they said Americans look like

9:54

they're speaking with an egg in their mouth: a

9:56

whole egg, you know, without cracking it. So anyway,

9:58

that's a side note, that even

10:00

though they are a world apart and

10:03

have totally different histories,

10:05

there's some interesting similarities between

10:07

the two, but another - to

10:09

get to your question - Another thing that's similar

10:11

about both Czech and Japanese

10:13

cultures is that they are - really

10:17

the foundation is the family

10:20

and the foundation is sort of the ancestry

10:22

and the history of the family. Both people

10:24

groups are largely

10:26

homogenous, so strikingly

10:28

different from the United States where we are sort of a

10:30

melting pot, but in Japan

10:33

you have almost exclusively

10:35

Japanese citizens with Japanese

10:37

ancestry, and same

10:39

with the Czech Republic. Now in Czech, there's

10:41

a little bit more intermarriage with the surrounding

10:43

nations, but the Czech people

10:45

are very Czech historically, and this

10:48

is a source of pride for both countries.

10:50

They're very proud of their heritage and proud

10:53

of their traditions as a culture and

10:55

as a people. So in that way,

10:57

they are so different than the United States. We

10:59

don't have much of a shared

11:02

identity in terms of our history and

11:04

traditions, and we don't

11:06

introduce ourselves as members of a family

11:09

or as people of a certain city or

11:11

of a certain village or of a certain tradition, whereas in Japan

11:14

and Czech you do. It's very much

11:16

part of your introduction of who you are, even

11:18

today, even as a young person, you

11:20

are a family that -your line, you know,

11:22

who you come from. So I think

11:25

while pride is certainly pervasive,

11:27

we see it in the Garden and then we see it in

11:29

every human heart - Since the Fall pride

11:32

and sin is pervasive. That is our

11:34

condition as fallen humans. What's

11:36

different here in the United States is that we don't

11:39

have a shared identity or a shared

11:41

ancestry, and especially in more

11:43

recent decades, we've tried really

11:45

hard to invent ourselves

11:47

and create our own identity, and

11:49

identity politics is increasingly coming

11:51

to the surface as an issue of not just

11:54

contention, but even violence and

11:56

huge disunity in our nation, and I

11:59

think that's because people have

12:01

worked so hard to create their own identity,

12:04

that to threaten it or to question it is very

12:06

personal and very hurtful and

12:08

just sort of wounds the soul of the person

12:10

who said, "This is who I've decided I am.

12:13

This is my identity." They aren't couched

12:15

in the safety and the security of a family

12:18

name or a family tradition or a family

12:20

line or the history and heritage

12:22

of a people group. They've had to invent themselves, and

12:25

the invented self is very fragile, which

12:27

is largely what Enough about Me is

12:29

about. So I do think the U.S. is

12:31

unique in that way, and certainly maybe not

12:33

the one and only - I can't say that we're the

12:35

only society in such a position across the globe,

12:38

but it's the society I know best, and I know

12:40

that we are fragile because of that.

12:43

Yeah, and if you think about

12:45

U.S. History, it makes

12:47

sense that we'd be that way because

12:49

with the exception, of course, Native Americans,

12:53

everyone else here is an immigrant

12:55

at some point or another. And I

12:58

in previous years worked on a study

13:01

where I was interviewing people

13:03

all over the country for some

13:07

social science research that was being done, and

13:10

one of the questions I had to ask them was, "What

13:12

is your ethnic identity

13:15

or where is your family

13:17

from?" And it was very

13:19

interesting the high percentage of people

13:21

who just said, "American," and really

13:23

we were looking for - American is not an ethnicity. We

13:27

were looking for, "My ancestors are

13:29

from Germany," or even

13:31

Africa or a continent...anything.

13:34

And they just had no idea where

13:36

- no sense of any

13:39

history beyond just their

13:41

generation or the one or two before that.

13:43

And as someone who myself has spent

13:45

a lot of time looking into my family genealogy - as

13:49

I've found out more and more about where my

13:51

family is from, in an odd

13:53

way, I have started to see myself less

13:56

and less as American

13:58

or just an individual

14:00

here creating my own identity and much more

14:03

connected to a history and

14:05

a people that go back for hundreds

14:07

of years. But our status

14:09

as an immigrant nation

14:11

really has created

14:13

in many cases a rootless people, and

14:17

you know, when you talk about not being

14:20

identified by your family identity,

14:22

I guess I could see some good

14:26

consequences of that in that you don't

14:28

have as much of an aristocracy

14:30

as you did in old Europe where,

14:33

people in the upper classes looked down

14:35

on people in the lower classes, but

14:37

it also gets rid of all the positive parts

14:39

of family identity. So that's interesting

14:42

that you have that observation. I appreciate

14:44

it because you have spent time living in

14:46

other cultures, so you have that - you

14:48

can bring the different ways

14:50

that people tend to think about questions of identity.

14:54

Yeah, I'm with you. I think it's fascinating.

14:57

You refer to God in your book as

14:59

a story writer and storyteller

15:02

from whom we have our existence.

15:04

He is the one who can, "...tell

15:07

us about ourselves. He has the answers."

15:09

I've thought about God

15:12

in a very similar way as

15:14

the maker of a car and the commands

15:16

of God are akin to an instruction

15:18

manual for that car. How do Christians

15:21

who outwardly acknowledge God as their

15:23

creator tend to forget that fact

15:25

in certain ways and how does it

15:27

manifest in our behavior?

15:30

Well, I know that I personally forget

15:32

it a hundred times a day in a hundred

15:34

different ways. Again, going back to question

15:37

number one, pride is really at the root

15:39

of this. The enemy asks Adam

15:41

and Eve, "Did God really say that?" And

15:43

that's sort of been the question of the sinful human

15:45

heart ever since: Did God really say that?

15:48

Did he really ask these things of me or did

15:50

he really command these things or can I be my

15:52

own God? Can I direct my own way?

15:54

And certainly I fall prey to that, as

15:57

I said, truly a hundred times a day, as

15:59

I seek to obey myself and

16:01

seek to please myself above the God

16:03

who made me and created me and saved

16:06

me as well. So I think that,

16:08

especially in this moment,

16:11

and I know there's nothing new under the sun,

16:13

but in this moment of a very consumer

16:15

oriented American or Western

16:18

culture, we really do

16:20

seek to please ourselves. We have so much security,

16:22

so much comfort, so many opportunities

16:24

to do exactly what we want to do and not

16:26

endure certain peril or certain

16:28

hardships. We want to cultivate our best

16:30

lives now. It's so

16:33

easy to forget that Jesus asked

16:35

us to lay down our lives, that

16:37

he asked us to be the least and he

16:39

asked us to be the last. God really did

16:41

say, "If you want to follow

16:43

me, you must bear your cross.

16:45

You must lay down your life to find it," and

16:47

I think of somebody like Mary when

16:50

the angel appeared to her, she said, "May it be to me

16:52

as you have said," and just so willingly

16:55

gave her body, gave her life,

16:57

gave her social status,

16:59

her soon to be married status

17:01

- all these ways that she viewed

17:03

herself and others viewed her and laid that down

17:05

and said, "Yes, may it be to me as you have said." And

17:07

I think that's something that I personally and

17:09

I think many of us Christians in the West struggle

17:12

with. We forget that

17:14

the Lord has said, "Yes, go low,

17:16

lay yourself low," and we

17:18

seek to serve and please, and protect ourselves

17:21

rather than following Christ.

17:24

Yeah, I think we could probably go

17:26

on for a very long time about

17:28

all the ways that we do that, and if

17:31

you're only forgetting this

17:33

a hundred times a day, you're probably doing better than

17:34

me, cause I'm probably at least at 200.

17:39

Because isn't that the source of all sin?

17:41

Just our forgetfulness of

17:44

God's position in relation to us.

17:46

So yeah, I appreciate

17:48

you reflecting on that. As a young

17:51

person, I had

17:53

the impression that giving oneself

17:55

more and more to God meant having

17:57

your identity erased in a certain

17:59

way or your personality changed.

18:02

I've come to see as I've gotten older how

18:04

untrue that is, and you make

18:06

a good point to this effect when you say, "To

18:09

be our true selves, to walk in our most

18:11

genuine identity, does not come from

18:13

within. Rather it comes from being

18:15

fueled by our relationship with God

18:17

and living for his glory as creatures

18:20

designed by him and for him. This is

18:22

our best and truest self." Could

18:25

you expand on that a bit more?

18:27

How does finding our identity in

18:29

Christ make us the truest versions

18:31

of ourselves?

18:32

Sure. Well, like we just said in the last

18:35

question, God is our story

18:37

writer. God is the storyteller. He writes

18:39

us into his grand story, so he

18:41

is our Creator. And if you even just look

18:43

back to the creation account, you can see

18:45

right off the bat what a good and kind

18:47

and loving God he is, the way that

18:49

creation is, the beauty that we can

18:52

behold in creation. The fact that

18:54

he created us in his image for community

18:56

and worship, by him, for him,

18:58

through him, to him as Colossians says.

19:01

So he knows us best because

19:03

he made us. He's the one who knit us

19:05

together and we are by no

19:07

means then to think that we are sort

19:09

of cookie cutter or that erases anything.

19:12

I mean, Amy, if we just look at

19:14

the fish under the sea or the stars

19:16

in the sky or the intricacy of the human

19:18

body, what's inside each of us

19:20

- think of the billions of people

19:22

on the planet and how each one has

19:24

different eyes and different hair and

19:26

different personalities - physically,

19:29

inwardly and outwardly, their spirits,

19:31

their personalities - there is so much

19:33

diversity in creation. Our God

19:35

is immeasurably creative, and

19:38

so if we remember

19:40

and return to the truth that he made

19:42

us and we seek his face and

19:44

seek his will and seek what is his grand story

19:47

all about and fit ourselves into

19:49

that with his help and with his power,

19:51

for his pleasure and for his glory, that's

19:53

when we come to know ourselves the best, and it's

19:56

when we rail against that where we

19:59

really miss out on the joy and peace

20:01

and satisfaction that he's intended

20:03

for us to have in this life.

20:07

Yeah, I think that's a very good point. And

20:09

when we talk about

20:12

having to lose ourselves

20:14

in order to find ourselves or laying down our

20:16

lives in order to follow Christ,

20:19

I think it's best to think about that as what we're really

20:21

losing is our sinful tendencies

20:23

and desires being lost over time. The

20:26

good thing that God always intended us

20:28

to be, like you said, is coming

20:30

out, and you make a good point that

20:33

he wants a diversity of people. He doesn't

20:36

want us to all be cookie cutters,

20:38

so I

20:40

appreciate you talking about that. One

20:42

good point you make in your book is that,

20:45

"Any deviation from biblical Christianity can

20:48

be detected when we are told to turn

20:50

our practices and habits inward

20:52

on ourselves rather than outward

20:55

on our marvelous Savior." Two

20:58

manifestations of this that you mention are the

21:00

way we think about "quiet time"

21:02

and the content of our worship songs.

21:05

Could you discuss that a bit, and are

21:07

there any more examples that you've seen?

21:09

Yeah, sure. So again,

21:12

I've said this and I hate to be Debbie Downer

21:14

about it, but we live in such a consumeristic

21:17

oriented culture. We have this sort of consumer

21:19

Christianity. If we

21:21

haven't rejected church altogether or

21:23

rejected Jesus Christ altogether,

21:25

and we've - we want to follow him,

21:27

or we want to join a Christian church in

21:29

many ways, it's with a consumeristic

21:31

mentality. Which one

21:33

fits me the best? Which one do I enjoy the best?

21:35

Which one has the best coffee or the best kids' programs?

21:37

Or where can I go to consume rather

21:40

than where can I go to maybe contribute

21:42

or to covenant with the other people in the community

21:45

and pursue the goodness that is

21:47

the family of God we tend to consume.

21:50

And once you see it, it's hard

21:52

not to see it everywhere. And I know it's not

21:54

everywhere, but you think of just the

21:57

large institutions - and I have nothing against

21:59

large churches. I'm not saying that by any means, so please

22:02

don't mishear me, but just these engines

22:04

that sort of have to keep themselves going.

22:06

And the goal then is maybe

22:08

numbers and growth so that the engine

22:11

can keep going, and it is everywhere.

22:13

It's on our home decor, it's in our Instagram

22:15

and it's in our own souls, this desire

22:18

to serve ourselves. And so it can be

22:20

hard to see, or it could be hard to pick up on that idol

22:22

when you worship it, but I do think it comes out

22:24

in things like your personal quiet time. Certainly

22:28

our relationship with our

22:30

Maker and Savior is meant to be personal.

22:33

Certainly our salvation is personal.

22:35

We must surrender our unique

22:38

and personal selves over to our Lord.

22:40

However, the Christian life

22:43

was never meant to be private. Personal

22:45

in some ways, yes, but not private.

22:47

We were created for community. As

22:50

we see in the Garden of Eden, we were

22:52

created to be a part: to

22:54

be one more link

22:56

in a eternal genealogy.

23:00

There's so many genealogies in just the

23:02

Book of Genesis alone, but throughout

23:04

all of scripture. And we're part of that genealogy

23:07

and we are designed to flourish

23:09

corporately, not flourish individually.

23:12

And so I think in the American West

23:14

especially, we have really forgotten

23:16

that crucial and I think very central

23:19

component of our faith is that

23:21

we were created for community, not

23:23

for an individual pursuit. And that

23:25

has been to our detriment, our great detriment. It

23:27

has been - We've just been really hurt ourselves

23:30

in the process. And so you see it like in

23:32

your question, and as I say in the book, you

23:34

see it in worship songs too , that

23:37

make priority your personal feelings

23:40

rather than the exaltation and goodness

23:42

of God, or maybe a corporate history

23:44

- a corporate recitation of God's

23:46

goodness to the whole community. We do

23:48

tend to just be very personal

23:51

or very private rather than corporate, and

23:54

I don't believe that's the Lord's design and I don't think

23:56

it's for our good.

23:58

Yeah. You made me think about

24:00

some of the observations that have occurred

24:03

over the past year with the coronavirus

24:04

pandemic and so many

24:07

people going to virtual

24:10

streaming of church services rather than

24:12

going in person on many occasions,

24:14

because they're legally barred from going

24:16

in person for a time, or they have

24:19

very real concerns for their health. And

24:21

we've been watching streaming

24:24

of church a lot more than going

24:26

in person, but I

24:28

do feel that we lose something

24:31

when we're just watching on the

24:33

TV. But there's been

24:35

a lot of concern that some of the people who

24:37

are watching at home,

24:39

they'll never come back when the churches reopen:

24:42

they'll just check out of church entirely.

24:45

But what I'm seeing from

24:47

people who seem to be really deep

24:49

in their faith is that they

24:51

are really feeling a loss

24:54

over the course of this year. They

24:55

aren't feeling like, "Oh, it's just

24:57

as good to watch on TV," because they understand

25:00

what it is to be in that vibrant

25:02

community that God has intended where we are

25:04

walking together in the Christian

25:06

life and not just on our

25:08

own. Because even before

25:10

the pandemic happened, you would hear about these virtual

25:13

reality churches or whatever, and we all

25:15

kind of - a lot of us made fun of it. "That's

25:17

not really church! It's not the same thing!"

25:20

But now it's almost like

25:22

God has given us all this test

25:25

of all of a sudden being

25:28

starved of some of that

25:29

community, and we're finding lots

25:32

of different ways to try to continue the community

25:34

despite the restrictions, but it's

25:37

given me such an appreciation for

25:40

the few occasions we have gone in

25:43

person. It's just so special. And

25:45

when we finally get

25:47

back to more of a normal where we're going every

25:49

week - I mean, our son was born

25:52

the month before everything shut down, so

25:54

he really has no concept

25:56

- I mean, he's too young to have much of

25:58

a concept of anything, but he's

26:00

still - he doesn't have a concept that every

26:02

week we go to church. He thinks every week we go

26:05

downstairs and sit and watch church, which

26:07

is good, and we do lots of things

26:09

too every day. We're reading scripture

26:12

and praying with him, doing different things, but

26:14

it will be different for him when

26:16

he's there with his church

26:19

family . So I just think this past year

26:21

has given such a perfect example of what you're talking

26:24

about, that we can't just

26:26

have our own little church with our Bible

26:28

and our mug of coffee on a Sunday morning,

26:30

sitting on our porch. You know, it's not

26:32

the same. It's not what God intended

26:34

for us. And when we are together,

26:37

that drives us away from that

26:39

purely consumer mindset. We're forced

26:42

to be part of a body, and that is

26:44

what God intended for us. So I

26:46

think that's just a great point that

26:49

you have. Our culture

26:52

loves the message, "Believe in yourself,"

26:54

and various variations

26:57

on that. As a mother of a small

26:59

child, I see it in many

27:01

children's books. It's in so many

27:03

American films. We seem to accept

27:06

this platitude with little consideration, and

27:09

yet you point out that this message

27:11

is in large part antithetical to Christian

27:14

teaching. You write, "To believe

27:16

in oneself is to refuse grace.

27:19

It is to say to the God who made

27:21

you, 'I'm doing fine on my own. Thank

27:23

you very much.' It just refuse

27:25

the Lord's unconditional love, forgiveness

27:27

and empowerment. But when we confess

27:29

that we are not enough, we invite

27:32

all of that in. Confession leads

27:34

to joy." How

27:37

do we draw a line as Christians

27:39

between appropriate self-confidence

27:42

and harmful pride that places

27:44

trust in something other than God?

27:48

Man, that is a good question, because I feel like

27:50

those two things can look really

27:52

identical. The sort

27:55

of outward appearance of two different

27:57

hearts can be very similar, and

28:00

I think sometimes we can even not know ourselves

28:02

- from which foundation

28:04

we are operating - and it's something we constantly

28:06

need to be asking ourselves about. But really

28:09

the premise and message of the whole book

28:11

is that first sentence that you read: to believe

28:13

in oneself is to refuse grace.

28:16

And that's my hope with the book Enough

28:18

about Me is that those who read

28:20

it would just experience total

28:23

relief. It's so exhausting

28:25

to believe in yourself, to feel like, "I

28:27

have got to invent myself. I have got to pull myself

28:29

up by my bootstraps and I've got to make this happen.

28:31

It's all on me." And that's

28:34

how we were raised at least in a secular

28:36

setting, and I think a

28:38

lot of times even in the church setting, maybe

28:40

by teachers and parents who did not realize

28:42

that that's actually what they were communicating.

28:45

So this exhaustion,

28:47

this burnt out experience that a

28:49

lot of us have is the result

28:51

of, "I can do it myself." And so

28:53

my hope is that the reality check

28:55

that, "No, actually you can't do

28:57

it yourself," is a message of

29:00

sweet relief. And you

29:02

make a good point with your question: there is an appropriate

29:05

self-confidence, absolutely. We

29:07

must remember there is now no condemnation

29:10

for those of us who are in Christ Jesus. To be

29:13

beloved and chosen and holy and set apart by

29:15

the God of the universe is such a great

29:17

gift, and when we operate

29:19

from the foundation of that truth, that, "I

29:21

am his. He will never leave me

29:23

or forsake me. I can never be snatched

29:26

out of the Father's hands. I belong to him,"

29:28

then we operate from a place of wanting

29:31

to please him and steward

29:33

the life that he's given us. It's a

29:35

stewardship mindset rather than

29:38

a self help mindset.

29:40

It's an acknowledgement: my life

29:42

and breath and all that I have comes from

29:44

the hand of a sovereign and

29:46

good God. He ordained

29:48

my life and the circumstances and

29:50

my gifts and abilities, as well as

29:53

my shortcomings and the hard things

29:55

in my community or my setting for

29:57

his good purposes. And so I can

29:59

wake up with confidence every day that God is

30:01

God and he's going to accomplish what he wills

30:04

in my life. And when we move

30:06

from that perspective rather than an "I can

30:08

do it myself" perspective, we have

30:10

nothing but hope, we have nothing but

30:12

encouragement and power because we

30:14

know that God is in charge and his will cannot

30:16

be thwarted, and he's pleased with us

30:19

because when he looks at us, he sees his Son

30:21

and his Son's righteousness. And so it's

30:23

an incredibly freeing shift

30:25

in the way that we think. And so really just

30:28

to get back to your question, how do we draw

30:30

that line? I think it depends on

30:32

who we trust. Do we trust ourselves

30:34

or do we trust the Lord?

30:37

Yeah. One of the pastors at my church

30:40

is very fond of

30:42

putting the sort of secular

30:44

gospel in terms of the phrase,

30:47

"Do more, try harder," which

30:50

is really the opposite of the gospel.

30:53

And yet I think in our culture

30:55

with the sort of self-reliance,

30:59

rugged individualism, and in some

31:01

ways it comes a little bit from capitalism,

31:04

the mindset that if you just work hard enough, you

31:06

can succeed in the economy

31:08

or you can succeed in life. And regardless

31:10

of where we are on the political spectrum, I think

31:12

we all to a certain extent buy

31:15

into the idea of meritocracy.

31:17

"We have it within ourselves.

31:20

We just need to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps."

31:21

And on the

31:24

one hand I can say, I don't

31:26

have nearly enough faith to believe

31:28

in myself. I know myself too well

31:30

to believe in myself. And

31:32

yet again, there are probably a hundred

31:35

times a day where without even thinking about

31:37

it, I've falled into that "Do more, try

31:39

harder" mindset. I have

31:41

a almost one-year-old son, and

31:43

during the day I'm saying, "Okay, did I do this with him?

31:46

Did I do that? Did I get this done? Did I get that

31:48

done? Did I have time to work on the podcast? Did I have..." I judge

31:52

my day based on, "How much productivity

31:54

did I get? How many things did I check off on the

31:56

list?" And in a certain

31:58

way, I have to have a list to keep myself sane

32:00

and not forget everything, because my memory

32:03

went completely kaput after I had a baby.

32:06

But on the other hand, that

32:08

is definitely falling back into that idea

32:11

that believing in yourself

32:12

- that if I just keep trying

32:14

harder, if I just get up 30 minutes

32:16

earlier and do one thing more in the day,

32:19

that it'll all be okay. So I

32:22

really appreciate dthat you talked a lot about that

32:24

in your book, especially because your book

32:27

is targeted a lot to people

32:29

like me who are women with children,

32:31

or just trying to juggle all the

32:33

things here in American life.

32:35

And I think that's something we can fall into

32:37

a lot, so I really appreciate you

32:40

addressing that.

32:42

Yeah, I'm preaching to myself, Amy. I have to say

32:44

that to myself all the time.

32:46

Yeah. So another

32:48

thing our culture is absolutely

32:50

obsessed with is the notion of choice

32:52

and the belief that more choices

32:55

equals greater freedom. To a

32:57

certain extent, that's true, but you

32:59

also point out that we can end up becoming

33:02

a slave to our own choices, unable

33:04

to decide, because we think everything

33:06

hinges on our own autonomy.

33:09

How should Christians think about our choices

33:11

differently than the population in general?

33:14

This is something you address in your book, but

33:16

maybe you could just give us a little preview

33:18

or a little snippet now.

33:20

Sure. Yeah. I think in the book I share

33:22

how after living overseas for about

33:24

15 years and coming back and trying to do the

33:26

grocery shopping, it was just absolutely

33:29

overwhelming. We've lived back in the U.S. For

33:31

five years now, and I still find it almost

33:33

debilitating to go into the grocery store because

33:35

there are so many choices. It's

33:37

like analysis paralysis. There's too

33:39

many things to think about. And we do

33:42

get into that mindset as Americans. "Well, as long

33:44

as I curate the best education,

33:47

the best friends group, the best wardrobe,

33:50

the best weekend plans and retirement

33:52

plans and vacation plans and do

33:54

just the right thing, and of course curate

33:56

it for online consumption in social

33:58

media, I can create my best

34:01

life now!" And that's just

34:03

not true. We can

34:05

operate that way for so long, but

34:07

inevitably will run up

34:09

against something, and we'll be reminded that

34:12

in fact, we are finite and frail

34:14

and fallen human beings and we need the Lord

34:16

and we need his help. And so, again, not

34:18

to be a broken record, but I hope

34:20

that that is a freeing message: that

34:23

you are not the sum of your choices,

34:25

your good ones or your bad ones. There's

34:27

nothing that you or I can do to make

34:29

God love us more or make God

34:31

love us less, and he is indeed

34:33

sovereign, and he does

34:35

look upon you and me with love

34:38

and grace if we are in Christ Jesus, and

34:40

he wants to help us and to fill us and

34:42

to move us through our days according to his

34:44

will. And so my desire is

34:46

that Christians would look

34:48

at choices again with that sort of stewardship

34:50

mentality like, "Lord, what would you have me do?" We

34:53

tend to look at life with, "Well, what can I get

34:55

away with?" And I think a better question

34:58

is , "Well, how should I honor the Lord? What

35:00

has he appointed for this moment? What

35:02

would be by him and for him and through him,

35:04

into him in this moment?" And then there's

35:07

freedom in that because I realize I'm

35:09

not the sum of my choices. If I really screw

35:11

this up, it's going to be okay because

35:13

Jesus has redeemed me and he's not letting go of

35:16

me and he will help me,

35:18

whatever comes. So let's

35:20

not be overwhelmed by our choices and feel

35:22

like, "It is all on me," because that's just not

35:24

true. Let's walk in freedom that our God

35:26

is good and he is ready to help us.

35:29

You know, so much of what you're saying reminds

35:32

me of the first

35:34

question and answer in the Heidelberg Catechism,

35:36

which asks, "Q. What is your only comfort

35:39

in life and in death? A. That I am not

35:41

my own, but belong body and

35:44

soul...to my faithful Savior, Jesus Christ."

35:46

And I've so often observed

35:48

that if you're not in

35:50

Christ or if you think you are and you're not,

35:53

or if you're completely secular, that's

35:55

not comforting at all to think that you

35:57

belong to Christ:

35:59

that you're not completely in control of everything,

36:02

but the Bible is pretty clear that

36:04

all of us are being influenced

36:08

and controlled by something.

36:10

Paul says we're either slaves to sin

36:12

or we're slaves to righteousness, and

36:15

the Bible says that true freedom

36:18

is to serve Jesus Christ rather

36:20

than serving yourself or the

36:22

devil or whatever you're worshiping. So

36:25

I think that sometimes

36:28

we've raised freedom up to be

36:30

the most valuable virtue

36:33

in our society, but freedom

36:36

is only as valuable as what you use it for, and

36:39

what kind of freedom are we talking about?

36:41

We just like the word freedom so

36:43

much that we don't think too

36:45

much about, "What does that actually mean?" and

36:47

the fact that none of us are really

36:49

free. And sometimes all

36:51

of a sudden, even though we have the

36:53

best technology and medicine and everything

36:56

that we've ever had in human history, there

36:58

can be a virus that hits us that completely

37:00

throws everything out of whack, and suddenly none

37:02

of us are in control anymore. And

37:05

so again, our

37:07

current situation is a reminder to us

37:09

of what you're talking about, and so

37:12

I really appreciate that. Circling

37:14

back to some things we talked about, you have a quote in your

37:16

book, "We tend to believe

37:18

that our worth is equal to what we can

37:20

produce and consume. We look

37:22

to ourselves, To the products we choose and

37:25

buy, to the methods we choose to live by, to

37:27

the things we can produce, and to the lifestyle

37:30

choices we make for our value and identity."

37:33

This tendency of our society

37:35

to value people in terms

37:37

of production and define them

37:40

in terms of consumption has led

37:42

to all sorts of negative consequences,

37:45

not the least of which is the dehumanization

37:48

of anyone who's not seen to

37:50

"contribute anything to society."

37:53

And unfortunately the same tendency is

37:55

also prevalent within the Church, if

37:57

in slightly different ways. How does our

37:59

mindset of production and

38:01

consumption specifically affect

38:04

the way we think about success

38:06

in Christian ministry or in the Christian

38:08

life?

38:10

Yeah, you know, this issue is like insidious

38:13

and it's absolutely evil.

38:15

I believe it's what drives the

38:17

abortion industry. It's what drives physician

38:20

assisted suicide. It's what's

38:22

driving so much depression and despair.

38:23

It's just this idea that

38:26

if you can't contribute to society,

38:28

then your life doesn't have meaning. If you can't

38:31

do something useful, if you

38:33

are less than able, somehow then life

38:35

is less than worthy, and it's

38:37

so grievous, and it's so contrary

38:39

to our God who says that when we are

38:41

weak, he is strong. So really

38:44

it's - as I said, it's just

38:46

pervasive. And we do see it in the

38:48

Christian life and in the Christian Church as well, and

38:51

it grieves me and I see it in my own heart. I am

38:53

not pointing fingers as much as

38:55

I am just acknowledging this in myself

38:57

- is that we want to see, "What can I

38:59

get done today? What can I produce? How

39:01

many followers can I have? How many

39:03

listeners can I have? How many books can I sell? How many

39:05

people will come to my church? If I'm a

39:07

missionary, how many people will get converted? How many

39:09

times am I sharing the gospel?" We tend

39:12

to be visually oriented,

39:14

you know, "What can I see? And then what can

39:16

I count?" We want to measure

39:18

the things that we see. And

39:20

so I do think it's a huge issue

39:22

inside our churches and inside our own

39:24

hearts. What we determine to

39:27

be good and faithful ministry,

39:29

we measure with our finite

39:32

limited human minds, but that is

39:34

not the mind of God. The Lord

39:36

does not deem success with

39:38

big numbers. I don't mean to paint

39:40

such a broad brush stroke as to

39:42

say there aren't some useful things

39:44

about that. There are. With

39:47

God's help and the Holy Spirit's leading

39:49

it's okay and good and helpful

39:51

sometimes to look at those measurements.

39:53

I don't mean to say they're all

39:56

awful, but if you just look at the life of

39:58

Christ and who he drew near to,

40:00

it was the sick and the outcast

40:02

and the poor and the lowly.

40:04

This is who Jesus drew near to.

40:06

This is who he had compassion on. This is who he

40:08

came to save, and so

40:11

if we wouldn't call that fruitful

40:13

ministry, how dare we deem

40:16

what we're doing now as fruitful.

40:18

So I think there's this principle that I have

40:21

that has been really helpful, whether on the

40:23

mission field or whether here in the U.S. as a

40:25

church planter, or as now an

40:28

author, and it's that God

40:30

calls me to be faithful. He's asked

40:32

a certain task of me. He's

40:35

placed something in my life and asked me to do it. So

40:37

my job is to be faithful,

40:39

but his role is to produce the fruit.

40:42

I cannot produce fruit. It's God who grows the fruit

40:44

is what Paul says, and so that

40:46

fruit is not really my business.

40:49

You know, the numbers aren't really my business.

40:51

My business is being faithful and

40:53

obedient to my Lord and honoring

40:55

him, but what he wants to do with

40:57

my faithfulness is up to him. And it might be

40:59

to have a teeny church or to sell no books

41:01

or to be rejected and persecuted.

41:03

That might be his will, and that's the fruit

41:06

that he's growing, and that's a

41:08

blessing, and we ought to praise him and thank him for that

41:10

as well. So my encouragement to

41:12

people, especially if they feel paralyzed, like,

41:15

"What should I do? What if nobody listens, or what

41:17

should I do if nobody reads?"

41:19

Well, that's okay. That's not our

41:21

business. That's God's business. Go ahead and obey

41:23

him and let him determine what the outcome

41:25

will be.

41:27

And that's such a temptation

41:30

as a writer, or a

41:32

pastor, or a missionary to

41:35

think that you have to protect your

41:38

platform, I guess you could say. "Because no

41:41

one listened to me if I don't have this

41:43

institution backing me, or if I don't have

41:45

enough followers on Twitter or enough..." And

41:48

we think, "Well, it's good for people to hear what I have

41:50

to say, so I have to keep promoting

41:53

it, perpetuating that in some way."

41:55

And sometimes we need to

41:57

stop and ask, "Are we just telling

41:59

people what they want to hear? Are

42:02

we telling them what God

42:04

really needs them to hear?" Because if you

42:06

look in the Bible at the prophets,

42:08

a lot of times when they told

42:11

people what God wanted them to hear, they

42:13

didn't get a lot of fans. And you

42:17

can look at Jesus and say, he actually did

42:19

have a lot of people who came to listen to him. He

42:21

was somewhat of a celebrity

42:23

in his own day, but when push came

42:25

to shove, a lot of those people

42:27

rejected him and he was willing

42:29

to give up the things of this

42:32

world to save

42:33

us, and as a

42:35

result of that, God brought about

42:38

this blessing where he said, the Father is going

42:40

to bring everyone to me that the

42:42

Father has for me. And you

42:44

definitely see that it's God who's bringing

42:46

the fruit. And sometimes we're not going to see

42:48

it in our lifetime. You think about

42:51

all those Old Testament patriarchs

42:53

who had to see the promises from afar, and

42:56

they were faithful for many years and never

42:58

saw the Christ come, but

43:00

God does keep his promises. So

43:03

it's useful to look at numbers and pay

43:05

attention to them, because sometimes that can point

43:07

to something that is problematic.

43:10

But I do think it's

43:12

a problem that most of the time, if you ask people,

43:15

"Name some really successful pastors," they're

43:17

probably going to all name people with

43:20

either huge churches, or

43:22

a lot of published books and

43:24

sold books, or who appear at a lot

43:26

of conferences, and some of those pastors

43:29

certainly have been very successful for the

43:31

Lord and being very faithful to him, but how

43:34

many people would say, "Well, my

43:36

pastor of this church with 50 people

43:38

is the person who is very successful"?

43:40

No, we don't think about it that way. So

43:43

I definitely think you make a good point there, and

43:46

certainly as you say, the

43:48

most nefarious way we see it is in just

43:50

completely devaluing certain

43:53

human lives. So that's the worst

43:55

thing that comes about as a result of

43:57

it, but in a lot of small ways, I think we

44:00

buy into some of that reasoning as

44:02

well. You have a quote

44:04

in your book originally from Andrew

44:07

Delbanco that, "Pride

44:09

is the enemy of hope." I thought

44:11

that was an interesting way of putting

44:13

things. Can you unpack it ?

44:16

Yeah. I love that quote too, which is definitely

44:18

why I borrowed it to stick in my book.

44:21

"Pride is the enemy of hope." So

44:23

when we are prideful,

44:25

when we think, "I can do it myself," when we have

44:27

total self-confidence and we count

44:29

on ourselves - at the end of the day,

44:32

I think when we're totally honest, we know we

44:34

are limited. You know, that's sort

44:36

of what burnout is: we know we actually

44:38

don't have what it takes to get

44:40

the job done. We know ourselves better

44:43

than anybody else. We know our

44:45

secrets and our sin and

44:47

our shortcomings better than anybody else, and

44:49

we know how tired we get and we know

44:51

how incapable we are. So

44:53

when we keep shoving that truth away and say, "No,

44:55

no, no, I can do it. I can do it. I can do it," discouragement

44:58

rises. But when we just

45:00

look in the mirror and go, "You know what, it's totally

45:02

true. I can't do it," that's when

45:04

hope comes rushing in. It's just that

45:06

surrender. It's that on

45:09

the floor moment that I talk about in the book. It's

45:11

hitting rock bottom. You know, we all

45:13

have to hit rock bottom once,

45:15

especially to be saved, but then

45:17

over and over a hundred times a day,

45:19

when we say, "I've fallen again, Lord, I blew

45:21

it again. These people in my

45:24

life, this project, whatever you've given me, I've blown

45:26

it again. I can't do it myself. Please

45:28

help me." There's nothing more

45:30

hopeful in this life than

45:33

calling on the Lord and saying, "Please

45:35

help me," and my hope is that

45:37

this book will help people do that - is just cry out,

45:40

"I can't do it. Please help me." That's so hopeful.

45:44

It reminds me of the story

45:47

of Martin Luther and

45:49

how he for many years tried

45:52

so hard to become

45:54

righteous through self-effort and constantly

45:57

confessing his sins to the point that

46:00

person he was confessing to is like, "You really

46:02

need to be a little easier on yourself.

46:04

This is getting insane." You know, and

46:06

they were monks, so if they thought

46:08

that he was being too hard on himself, he was

46:10

being really hard. And he

46:13

said - I can't give you an exact quote,

46:15

but in his writing he said he got to the point where he

46:17

was just in complete despair, and that

46:20

was when God was able to reach him: when his heart

46:22

was open to the gospel that it wasn't through self-effort

46:25

. And that was when he

46:27

surrendered that pride of

46:29

trying to earn his salvation,

46:31

essentially, so he was able to actually

46:34

experience the freedom

46:37

of salvation and the hope that that brought

46:39

him. And he was in very deep

46:41

depression and was relieved

46:43

from a lot of that as a result. So

46:46

I think that's just a good way to sum

46:48

up your book, and I would very much

46:50

encourage people to read your book Enough about

46:52

Me and to listen to your podcasts

46:54

, but just here at the end, I'm wondering - you're

46:57

working on a new book and I think

46:59

you were trying to just complete the

47:01

manuscript before we recorded

47:03

it . So could you give just a little sneak

47:06

peek of what that will be about?

47:08

Yeah, sure. I just turned in the manuscript

47:10

on Monday also. This book

47:12

will be published by Crossway again, and it will come out...

47:15

Okay. I'm giving you a round of

47:17

applause for completing your manuscript

47:19

. That's great. I commiserate with you on

47:21

the hard work and congratulate

47:24

you on a job well done.

47:25

Thank you so much. I know you know,

47:28

like writing and podcasting, these things are

47:30

done from the isolation of our own homes and

47:32

it's fun sometimes to see like-minded

47:34

friends who are co-laboring with you from

47:36

afar and cheer each other on, so thank

47:38

you. That's really sweet of you. But yeah, actually

47:41

this second book sort of came out of

47:43

the first book. So in the first book I

47:45

critique the age of self and

47:47

just really wanting to draw the reader to remember

47:49

who God is and remember who

47:52

they belong to, and the second book

47:54

I do that as well, but I actually - so

47:57

if you ever heard my podcast, you know that I do love

47:59

to do sort of cultural critique. I love

48:01

the news. I love the headlines. I want to know what's going

48:03

on, and then I want to view them through the lens

48:05

of scripture. And so with

48:07

the second book I do that. It's called So Much

48:09

More, and I actually look at

48:12

what it's sort of been like to be a girl and a woman

48:14

since the sexual revolution, and I

48:17

try to uncover or expose

48:19

five idols of our age

48:21

and show the reader

48:24

the rottenness that is underneath the sort

48:26

of glittery life promising

48:28

facade, and just showing how these idols have over

48:30

promised but under-delivered , and we

48:32

were made for so much more and

48:34

all that we have in Christ. What he has for

48:36

us - all that he has is ours , how

48:38

he's created us and made us and the victory

48:40

that he has for us. So my hope is to

48:42

just expose these idols and then exalt

48:45

Jesus and woo the reader to him

48:47

rather than to the false gods of our

48:49

age.

48:50

Well, thanks for that little preview, and that's

48:53

something to look forward to maybe coming out

48:55

later this year, perhaps, sometime?

48:57

Early 2022. Yeah, it'll be a year from now.

48:57

Hey, we

49:00

might even be like somewhat

49:04

past the pandemic by then. You never know.

49:07

Oh, L ord willing!

49:08

It'd be wonderful. Then you could have - I don't know,

49:10

people might have actual book tours or

49:12

book release parties again. I don't know. It could be great. Well,

49:17

thank you Jen so much for talking

49:20

to me today and I really

49:22

enjoyed our conversation.

49:23

Thank you so much, Amy too. It's been really sweet

49:26

for me as well.

49:51

[MUSIC PLAYS] I need to know there is justice, that it will roll in abundance, and that you're building a city where we arrive as immigrants, and you call us citizens, and you welcome as children home. [MUSIC STOPS]

49:54

It was an honor to interview Jen about her

49:56

book Enough about Me: Finding

49:58

Lasting Joy in the Age of Self, which

50:00

is published by Crossway. As

50:02

always, the music today is the song "Citizens"

50:05

by John Guerra, who graciously allows

50:07

it to be used for this podcast. Wherever

50:09

you are, I hope that you experience a

50:12

wonderful week in which you grow in the knowledge of

50:14

our Lord and live for his glory. As

50:16

Paul concluded in his letter to the Galatians,

50:19

"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be

50:21

with your spirit, brothers and sisters." Amen.

50:24

Come Lord Jesus. Have a great

50:26

week.

50:28

[MUSIC PLAYS] Is there a way to live always living

50:31

in enemy hallways? Don't

50:33

know my foes from my friends and don't

50:36

know my friends anymore. How

50:40

through prizes handcuffs can

50:42

come in all sizes, love

50:45

hasn't million disguises,

50:47

but winning is simply not

50:49

one [MUSIC STOPS]