0:07

[MUSIC PLAYS] I have a heart full of questions quieting

0:09

all my suggestions. What

0:12

is the meaning of Christian in this American life?

0:17

I'm feeling awfully foolish

0:19

spending my life on a message.

0:22

I look around and I wonder ever if I heard it right. [MUSIC ENDS]

0:28

Welcome to the (A)Millennial podcast, where

0:30

we have theological conversations for today's

0:32

world. I'm your host, Amy

0:34

Mantravadi, coming to you live from

0:36

Dayton, Ohio, former home of

0:38

The Midget Theater. Yes, I know

0:40

it's impolite to use that word for those with forms

0:42

of dwarfism, but that was the actual name

0:45

of an early movie theater in Dayton, a

0:47

true nickelodeon where you paid a few cents

0:49

to watch a film. It received its name because

0:51

the manager was a little person by the name

0:53

of Sherman Potterf. With his average

0:56

sized brother, Benjamin, Sherman leased

0:58

a building downtown and held a grand opening

1:00

in 1913 for a "home

1:02

of quality photo plays." The

1:04

slogan that was used in advertisements was,

1:07

"Nothing small about The Midget - only the manager."

1:11

Of course, in our present era, it's hard to imagine

1:13

a little person naming their theater with a derogatory

1:15

slur, but in that time it was evidently

1:18

not considered derogatory enough to bother Sherman.

1:21

The brothers sold their theater business in 1917

1:23

,and today the building stands in a state of disrepair,

1:26

but ready for a new buyer who can fix it up

1:28

and make it a home for a restaurant, store, or

1:30

artist's studio. I think it's kind

1:32

of awesome that a hundred years ago, someone

1:34

who looked different was able to be the manager

1:36

of a business and also serve as a touring

1:38

performer for another company. If

1:41

the world looks down and you, friends, don't let

1:43

it get you down. You can accomplish great

1:45

things. It is perhaps appropriate

1:47

that I opened with an anecdote loosely related

1:50

to the arts, because my guest today is a talented

1:52

performer: Jon Guerra. He

1:54

has released albums individually and in connection

1:57

with his wife, Valerie, and his work is

1:59

intended to draw people into meditation

2:01

upon spiritual truths. John's

2:03

first solo album, Little Songs,

2:06

displayed his desire to offer up little songs

2:08

to the Lord as prayers. One

2:10

of the songs off his most recent album, "Citizens,"

2:13

is the theme song for this podcast. But

2:16

my connection to this couple goes back a very

2:18

long way. Valerie and I were friends

2:20

growing up. We attended the same church

2:22

and school. Our families went

2:24

on trips together and were a regular presence

2:26

in each other's lives. It's been really special

2:29

to watch God bring Valerie and John together

2:31

and allow them to make beautiful music. As

2:33

you know if you're a regular listener, I like

2:35

to open each show by reading a scripture passage

2:38

that is relevant to the day's discussion. Today,

2:40

I'll be reading Psalm 33 verses

2:43

one through five. "Sing

2:45

for joy in the Lord, you righteous ones. Praise

2:48

is becoming to the upright. Give thanks

2:50

to the Lord with the lyre. Sing praises

2:53

to him with a harp of ten strings. Sing

2:55

to him a new song. Play skillfully

2:57

with a shout of joy, for the word of the

2:59

Lord is right, and all his work

3:01

is done in faithfulness. He loves righteousness

3:04

and justice. The earth is full of

3:06

the goodness of the Lord." It's

3:08

so wonderful to think that the Lord created music

3:10

and has ordained that we should use it to praise him.

3:13

Now let's head on to the interview and find out

3:15

how Jon is using his musical talents for the

3:17

glory of God. I apologize in

3:19

advance for the poor audio on my end

3:21

of the conversation.

3:21

[MUSIC PLAYS]

3:34

And I'm here with Christian recording

3:36

artist Jon Guerra, whose song "Citizens"

3:39

is the theme song of this podcast.

3:42

He was educated at

3:44

Moody Bible Institute for his bachelor's

3:45

degree, and after

3:48

that he formed the indie progressive

3:50

rock group Milano with

3:52

his wife, or maybe future wife

3:55

at the time, and a few of their friends. He was

3:57

a member of the Vertical Worship

4:00

Band. He's toured with Amy

4:02

Grant and Vince Gill's Christmas at the Ryman

4:05

in 2015 and 2016. He

4:07

formed the group Praytell with his wife Valerie

4:10

in 2017, and they've worked on

4:12

a number of things over the years. And

4:14

the two of them composed additional music

4:16

for the film A Hidden Lfe that came

4:18

out just within the past year or two here.

4:21

His albums include two

4:23

he released with Milano. Then

4:26

in 2013, he released the

4:28

album Hue under the name JAGUERRA. Then he had

4:37

his first EP, which was

4:40

Glass, in 2014, his

4:42

full-length album, Little Songs in 2015.

4:45

Also in 2015, he released

4:48

It's Almost Christmas with his wife,

4:50

Valerie. In 2017, he released

4:52

an EP called Working Demos 2, and

4:55

he's made various contributions over

4:57

the years to the albums of the Vertical Worship

5:00

Band. In 2018

5:02

, he and Valerie, as the group Praytell,

5:04

released It's Almost Christmas Volume Two, and

5:07

then last year he released the album

5:09

Keeper of Days. And you can find

5:11

him on Twitter and Instagram @iamjonguerra and on

5:15

Facebook @jonguerramusic.

5:18

Well, Jon, it's so great to have you on the podcast. Thanks

5:20

for coming on.

5:23

Thanks for having me, Amy. Good to see ya.

5:25

Well, I know that recently

5:27

you've moved from Chicago, where

5:30

you were for many years, to

5:32

Austin. So the first question

5:34

I naturally have to ask you is, who

5:36

has the better food scene , Chicago

5:38

or Austin?

5:40

Oh man. That's a

5:42

tricky one. I got

5:44

to say I'm partial to the

5:46

Chicago culinary

5:48

scene. Chicago

5:51

does a few things

5:54

very, very, very well. Austin

5:56

does many things pretty

5:59

well. Austin has

6:01

amazing tacos as you would guess, being

6:03

so close to the border, but

6:05

what's cool about Austin food that

6:07

I've found to be actually quite

6:10

surprising and delightful is there's a lot

6:12

of fusion. So there's

6:15

this place that we discovered just a couple of weeks ago

6:18

called TeaHaus 101, and

6:20

it's a Korean

6:23

taco place and

6:26

it is...kimchi and Korean

6:29

beef mixed with really hot

6:32

like Mexican style salsas.

6:35

I mean, it's just, there's really nothing like it. But

6:37

Chicago, I don't know, maybe it's

6:39

cause we were there for 10 years and the nostalgia

6:41

is just hard to get over. Chicago

6:44

is just - whether it's deep dish,

6:46

you know, the kind of the people's Portillo's,

6:49

or the super kind

6:51

of nichey hipster

6:54

dive cocktail bar, it just feels like

6:56

- I don't

6:58

know. It's hard. It's hard for me to betray

7:00

my allegiance to Chicago food .

7:03

Is it really pizza or is it a casserole?

7:05

Tell me that.

7:08

You're right. It's a cheese casserole with a little

7:10

bit of bread.

7:12

Well, it tastes pretty good, whatever you want to call

7:14

it. Getting back to the main reason

7:17

you're here, the past year or two

7:20

have brought some big transitions

7:22

for you. As I alluded to , you and

7:24

Valerie became parents, you moved from

7:27

Chicago to Austin, and you released

7:29

your new album, Keeper of Days. What

7:32

motivated your decision to

7:34

move down to Texas and how

7:36

have you changed as a musician and a person

7:38

during this period?

7:41

So we decided to move because

7:42

- well, back up now

7:45

four years ago, we met a

7:48

director, a director named Terrence Malick,

7:50

who was one of my favorite directors, and we met

7:52

him through a really good friend of

7:54

ours. And through

7:57

the course of a few

7:59

just random opportunities that

8:01

were kind of forwarded to us through that

8:03

relationship, and really just

8:05

the kindness of God, we were able to start working

8:07

with him for A Hidden Life - for

8:10

a film that was released this past year. And

8:12

we were flying back and forth from Chicago to Austin

8:14

quite a bit, and when that movie wrapped

8:16

up, we were invited to work on

8:19

his next film and he's based

8:20

- like I said, he's based in Austin. And

8:23

we thought, well, we're going to have a baby. We're

8:26

going to move out of our apartment. We felt like we were at

8:28

a time in our lives where we were

8:30

up for kind of a transition. We'd been

8:32

in Chicago for so long and we felt

8:34

like some of the seasons

8:37

that we were in, both

8:39

vocational seasons and maybe ministry

8:42

and some of that stuff, was - we just felt kind of released from and

8:44

felt like God was gonna be closing the

8:47

doors and just ending a season

8:49

for us. And we thought, "Well, now's as good a time as ever.

8:51

Why don't we... I've got this thing in Austin, I'm

8:53

releasing an album. I can release an album anywhere

8:55

because I'm just going to be based wherever

8:57

I am. And then touring, why don't we just move to

8:59

Austin work on this movie? Try

9:02

to escape the winter for the

9:04

length of the movie and Winslow, our baby

9:06

girl ,can just be raised

9:09

in Texas for a bit?" So we decided

9:11

to do it, and we got to Austin,

9:14

I think about like 15 days

9:16

before the lockdown - before everything

9:18

shut down. So it was perfect

9:20

timing for making friends and

9:24

getting to know a town. We weren't

9:28

able to move into any sort of housing

9:29

situation, so we actually - our

9:32

dear friend who is down here gave

9:35

us his place for as long as

9:37

it took for us to find a place, and he

9:40

moved in a friend's guest room. Talk

9:42

about kindness of a friend. And

9:45

yeah, because of COVID, it was

9:48

a little slow going, but we

9:50

found a place that's kind of perfect for us

9:52

and moved in a few months later. Yeah.

9:54

We've been here for about a year. How have we changed?

9:57

Oh my goodness. Haven't we all changed this past year? Haven't

9:59

we been affected? I

10:01

think probably the biggest thing for me has

10:04

been a little bit of a personal perspective

10:06

change. I was

10:09

planning on being on the

10:11

road, supporting that new album,

10:13

touring for at least

10:16

half of the year, and all of that got canceled

10:19

and it was a big deal, cause you

10:23

know, a lot of our majority of our income at the time

10:25

came through touring. While that was

10:27

- it was definitely like a bit of a scramble, like,

10:29

"Okay, let's figure some other things out." God

10:31

was insanely kind to us, and

10:34

you know, we were always - every month was great and

10:36

he took care of us, But also,

10:40

I can't believe how quickly I would have traded

10:42

the first year of Winslow's life for just a handful

10:44

of shows, and I mean

10:47

that with almost like with almost

10:49

a bit of fearful

10:51

trembling, because I

10:55

think it takes us all a little bit of time

10:57

to adjust to the new vocation

11:00

of parenthood and being a mother

11:02

or a father. Some people may

11:04

be quicker. Some people are looking forward to

11:06

it from the time they're like 15. "I just

11:08

can't wait to be whatever." That was never me and that was

11:11

never in my wife. And we love

11:13

our baby girl so much. For me, as just a dad, I

11:15

feel like I have been given the chance to

11:17

grow into my vocation of fatherhood this year

11:19

in a way that I would have never been able to , just

11:22

because of the restraints of my other vocation,

11:25

which is making art for God

11:27

and the necessary

11:30

touring that goes along with that. So that's probably the biggest

11:32

thing for me, and it's a daily

11:35

reminder because you can come to terms

11:37

with your vocation, both in like a grateful

11:40

way with a way

11:42

that kind of - you're sort of following

11:45

joy and pleasure the way

11:48

you and I do with writing or do with

11:50

music. There's obviously toil that goes along with

11:52

it, but it's like - it's

11:55

kind of the Eric Lidell. Like I feel God's pleasure

11:57

when I write and when I finish a song and

12:00

there is that certainly with fatherhood, but then there's also

12:02

the humbly submitting to

12:04

, "Okay, it's 6:15, and

12:07

she's not supposed to be up for another hour, but she's

12:09

up, so here we go." And

12:12

there's a holiness. I think that comes through

12:14

just like an acceptance of that as like, "No,

12:18

this is actually God requiring something

12:20

of me now. This isn't just something

12:22

that's interrupting my schedule. This is actually the

12:24

Lord. Yeah. Calling

12:26

me through the voice of a little baby in the other room."

12:28

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't

12:30

have had that perspective a year ago. I probably

12:32

would've waxed eloquent about something that

12:34

had nothing to do with actual fatherhood.

12:38

No, I very much understand because, as

12:40

you know, my husband and I have also become

12:43

parents in this past year, and

12:45

he was expecting

12:47

that he'd spend a

12:49

couple weeks of vacation at the beginning to

12:52

be home with me, and then he'd have to go back to work. And

12:55

as it turned out, he went back to work for

12:57

two weeks and then he's been working from

12:59

home ever since. So he's

13:02

been here for a lot of our

13:04

son Thomas's growing

13:07

up over this first year that he

13:09

just wouldn't have been . I mean, he would have seen him in the evenings

13:11

and on the weekends and everything, but it's

13:13

different, because now every time he goes to the bathroom, he

13:15

can just pop his head in and say hello

13:18

and see whatever is

13:20

happening, and it

13:22

does really cause you to reflect

13:24

in different ways. And then for

13:26

me becoming a mother, like

13:29

you said, with the artistic

13:31

process, such as it is with

13:33

the writing, you know, sometimes you'll

13:35

put the baby down for a nap and you're like,

13:37

"Okay, maybe I'll get

13:39

an hour here...maybe." And you

13:42

have enough time to make yourself some tea

13:44

and sit down and write

13:48

one page, and all of a sudden the baby's

13:49

up and - "You're not supposed to be up for another half an hour yet!" "Oh...Too

13:53

bad!" You know?

13:53

Yeah, exactly.

13:53

And I

13:56

have really had to check

13:58

my attitude a lot of times and say, "Hold on, what is

14:00

the most important here? Is it this

14:03

stupid page that I'm writing or my son?" Well,

14:05

it's just because your expectation was one

14:07

way and then it got taken another way, but

14:11

man, there's probably

14:13

nothing on earth that reveals

14:16

your own selfishness to you as much as

14:18

becoming a parent. Becoming

14:21

a wife or a husband certainly

14:24

does that to a certain extent, but even

14:27

with a wife or a husband, they're

14:30

usually respectful of some of your free

14:32

time - giving you time

14:34

to work on your process, because

14:36

if for nothing else that they want their own

14:38

free time as well. But you

14:41

know, kids - when they need you, they just

14:43

need you. So I think certainly

14:48

God has designed all these seasons in life

14:50

to teach us so much

14:52

about himself. And I'll just say on

14:54

a personal note as well, if Terrence Malick ever

14:57

said, "Can you just drop everything and work

14:59

on this movie with me?" I would be very tempted

15:01

to say yes as well. It

15:03

will never happen for me, but it

15:06

happened for you. I could understand why

15:08

that seems like a pretty great opportunity

15:11

. So you and your wife, Valerie

15:13

have worked together a lot on your music over

15:16

the years, as I was mentioning in the introduction.

15:18

I suspect that would be easier for some

15:21

married couples than others. So

15:23

how did the two of you make your collaboration

15:26

work?

15:28

So we met collaborating.

15:31

Somebody invited us to play music together in

15:33

college and she was playing violin. I

15:35

was playing guitar. And

15:38

as the story goes, I

15:40

asked her if she would like to work on some

15:42

of my songs and

15:44

it was kind of a ploy to just be able to get some alone

15:46

time with her. I didn't have the courage

15:49

to just outright say, "Will you go out with me?" So

15:52

I had the little sneak attack of working

15:54

on music. I also did

15:56

want to work on music, cause she's actually an incredible musician

15:58

- still is. And so

16:00

I think our relationship from day

16:03

one was always kind of working on things together, and

16:06

then we were in bands and then we

16:08

did long distance, which felt like a kind of collaboration

16:10

of schedules and - like right before

16:13

we got married. And

16:16

yeah, I don't know. That piece - I'm grateful it's

16:21

never been too difficult. I think we're both

16:23

- we both really enjoy,

16:26

I guess, projects and working

16:28

on things long-term, and

16:31

we both enjoyed being very scrappy and

16:33

working through the night to get something done and there's

16:35

never one pulling the other along and being like,

16:38

"Oh, we gotta..." You know, we're both just kind of - we just

16:40

enjoy, I guess, being

16:43

scrappy and maybe even a little entrepreneurial, so

16:48

that feels like a gift to us. And

16:51

probably the biggest collaboration is obviously

16:53

Winslow our daughter at this point, and it's wild how

16:57

many things carry over from - whether collaborating

17:01

on a tour, on a concert, on

17:03

an album, on movie.

17:05

It feels

17:09

very, very sweet to feel like

17:11

we have a partner in each other.

17:15

Well, I mean, I'm so glad that that's

17:17

been able to work because it's produced such

17:19

great fruit, and as you say, has now produced

17:21

a daughter as well. But

17:24

certainly, I'm

17:26

sure - I try to say , "What would it be like if

17:28

my husband and I were doing

17:31

the same job together?" And

17:33

I think on a certain level,

17:35

I'm sure we could make it work because we just

17:37

know each other so well, and we know how

17:39

to handle each other's moods , but

17:41

on another level I'm like, "Wow,

17:43

I don't know if we could make that work."

17:48

But I don't know. Maybe we'll see

17:50

if God ever gives us a chance to investigate if that works or not.

17:54

I think for now we'll stick to our separate

17:56

spheres . Your song

17:59

"Citizens," which is the theme song

18:01

of this podcast, addresses the issue

18:03

of immigration by comparing

18:05

it to the way that Christ invites us

18:08

into his kingdom and makes us citizens

18:10

of it. In addition to this broader

18:12

message, it's clear that you're also

18:15

communicating something about how Christians

18:17

should engage politically. Could you

18:19

talk about what inspired you to write this song

18:22

and what you hope to communicate through it?

18:25

Yeah. So what inspired

18:27

the song really was - it was a

18:29

feeling. So all of my songs

18:31

typically start with like a state of mind

18:34

or a state of heart that I then try

18:36

to figure out through my songs.

18:39

Very few of them start with, "This is

18:41

what I want to communicate. This is my thesis,"

18:43

and then I go. It's very much letting

18:45

the song tell me what it

18:48

wants to be and sort

18:50

of guiding it through the grid

18:52

of, "Does this lyric that I just

18:54

wrote or does this melody with this lyric

18:56

seem, I guess, consistent

18:59

with the experience that I'm having

19:01

as a person with regards to this issue

19:03

or this experience?" With that song

19:06

in particular, it was a period

19:08

of years: I

19:11

would say probably 2015

19:13

through 2017.

19:17

And this had been coming to a head for awhile where

19:19

it felt as though political

19:21

allegiance was beginning to usurp,

19:25

I guess, allegiance to Christ, or at least it

19:27

seemed to me that in our

19:29

churches and I - around

19:32

that time, I was touring quite a bit. I'd

19:35

probably sing a hundred evangelical

19:37

churches a year , for a

19:39

couple of years at a time. And I was noticing

19:41

just sometimes, very explicitly,

19:43

like from the stage or whatever,

19:46

but mostly in conversations

19:48

with people either after the concert or before

19:50

the concert or just out to eat,

19:54

anytime politics would come up, there was just this

19:56

tinge of what seemed

19:58

to me like self-righteous

20:01

vitriol or a hatred towards anybody that

20:03

was really disagreeing or anybody that was

20:05

Democrat. It felt like, "What's

20:08

going on here?" Like at first, you know, it's kind of funny.

20:11

Somebody says a little jab comment, but after

20:13

a while , it's like, every time politics

20:15

comes up, it's just like this other

20:17

thing takes over. And it's like, how

20:19

do we feel justified

20:22

in having this

20:24

posture towards our - even

20:27

if these people are our enemies, let's

20:29

say best case scenario, these are our enemies. Where in the world do we

20:33

find the

20:36

backing to - self justification

20:39

to feel much less act

20:41

this way towards people that are politically

20:44

different than us. And oftentimes it was through

20:46

the guise of, "Well, Western civilization

20:48

is at stake." You know, it was through the guise of,

20:51

"Well, if we don't do this, we don't make these

20:53

alliances, if we don't then the country's

20:57

going to hell in a hand basket," or

21:00

it was just these very, very lofty ideals and

21:03

these really - it

21:05

was moral. I realized that a lot of people were

21:08

saying this is a moral issue. Therefore, morally

21:10

I'm obligated to make these allegiances

21:13

and make and take this kind of stance and take this

21:15

posture. You know, it got to the point

21:17

where friends - close friends, people

21:19

that I probably would have had in my wedding

21:21

had I known them when I got married, fellow worship

21:23

leaders, pastors at my

21:26

church - were just

21:28

outright getting kind

21:30

of behind what felt like

21:33

a nationalistic Christian

21:34

- Christian nationalism is being thrown around

21:37

a lot right now, but the themes of that

21:39

have been growing for the past several years.

21:42

And I just felt it when I felt my

21:44

friends, not really

21:47

seeing or not really , I

21:51

guess, having any issue with

21:53

this kind of discourse or this kind of political engagement.

21:55

I just - I got really sad.

21:57

I got really kind of troubled

21:59

and angry, but underneath that, it was like, "I

22:04

thought we were all - we all grew up

22:06

together. Didn't we all agree this

22:09

is secondary? That this is actually secondary

22:11

to another kingdom - that

22:13

we're on the same page here. And

22:15

I was going to d church at

22:17

the time, and my pastor

22:19

joined Donald Trump's evangelical

22:21

council of pastors, so he was

22:24

a pretty prominent leader at the time.

22:26

He's no longer in ministry , my former

22:28

pastor. And that was kind of like,

22:30

"Wait, what's

22:33

going on here?" Take all that and then

22:35

combine it with , my wife

22:37

is a social worker and

22:40

we collaborate a lot, like we just talked about, but

22:42

something that we don't collaborate in is

22:44

she spent almost a

22:46

decade working with refugees in Chicago and working

22:48

with inner city schools and

22:51

starting music groups for refugee

22:54

victims of trauma in Chicago. And

22:56

when you work with people in

22:59

that socioeconomic spot

23:01

in our country, you get rewired

23:04

a little bit, and you

23:06

can't really tolerate the blanket

23:09

characterizations of people

23:12

in that spot in life. You

23:14

can't really tolerate that. And

23:17

when you feel that one candidate

23:19

or one kind of perspective

23:22

stereotypically kind of characterizes

23:24

people in that spot and that way,

23:26

it just becomes very distasteful.

23:29

So that was kind of everything that was going on around

23:31

the time, and it all kind of bubbled

23:33

up in prayer in

23:35

January of 2017.

23:37

And my process as

23:40

a writer and as a songwriter, I

23:42

feel called to make art for God

23:44

and to God . So I feel less called to

23:46

kind of call Christians out or to

23:48

be preacher or shake people by the collar. I feel

23:50

more called to vicariously

23:53

experience the world

23:55

and my faith, and

23:57

then bring that experience back to God in

23:59

a way that hopefully other Christians can join in, with

24:02

and through. And I just call that devotional

24:05

music. I call my songs devotional

24:07

songs for that reason. So this was kind of like

24:09

the first time I'd ever brought those

24:12

questions and those feelings

24:14

and that confusion and that anger

24:16

and that sadness, and that really honest,

24:19

"I'm just confused here

24:21

because I - Am I wrong? I'm

24:23

happy to be wrong, but just please God, help

24:26

me understand what's happening here when it feels

24:28

like the embassy of heaven,

24:31

which is the Church, is somehow

24:34

no longer the embassy of heaven: it feels like it's

24:36

the embassy for something else." And

24:38

I guess I use that analogy because I

24:40

- first of all, that's just kind of what came out naturally and

24:43

I always try to pay attention to

24:45

what sort of comes from the subconscious, but

24:48

I kind of wanted it to be a little bit of a transgressive

24:52

rendering. The parables

24:54

in their own day and age in their own context

24:57

were pretty transgressive. They were pretty culturally

24:59

transgressive in terms of what Christ

25:01

was encouraging people to

25:04

consider both about him and about God.

25:06

And it it felt appropriate,

25:09

so that's where that song kind of came from.

25:12

Well, thanks for sharing a

25:14

lot of the background about that, and I'll

25:17

just share with you a little bit about why

25:19

I chose that song to be the theme

25:21

of this podcast, just besides the fact that

25:23

I liked the idea of using

25:26

something for your music , both because I know you and

25:28

I really love your music, and

25:31

also just the - even

25:33

apart from the words, the musical line in that song

25:36

works so well as a little brief

25:38

snippet into the podcast, but I

25:42

have been going on a similar journey

25:45

over the past few years. And you

25:47

know, this is called the (A)Millennial podcast, and

25:50

I think that a lot of Christians

25:53

of the millennial generation are going through the

25:55

same circumstance of

25:59

being raised in evangelicalism

26:02

and a certain culture that in

26:05

many ways has also been linked to a

26:08

certain set of political values, many

26:12

of which I haven't

26:15

rejected. And just for

26:18

example , a

26:20

lot of aspects of the pro-life movement:

26:22

I still consider myself very much pro-life,

26:26

so because of that,

26:28

there are certain elements of the

26:31

progressive political agenda that

26:33

are just kind of anathema

26:36

to me for that reason. But at

26:38

the same time, seeing

26:42

really troubling things happening

26:44

in the other direction, and a

26:46

lot of hypocrisy, I think, is the

26:48

big thing. Seeing the way people talked

26:51

in the nineties, versus how they're talking

26:53

now - the same people - and

26:56

seeing, yeah, people

26:58

you grow up with, the kinds of things they're

27:00

posting on social media,

27:03

crazy conspiracy theories

27:05

and stuff that seems to show

27:08

not a lot of trust in God's sovereignty

27:10

and seems to suggest an allegiance

27:14

more to the kingdom of this world than the

27:17

kingdom of God. And while

27:20

not in any way putting myself forward

27:23

as a supreme example

27:25

of righteousness, because it's possible to get very

27:27

self-righteous in the other direction

27:29

as well - You know, feeling self-righteous in comparison

27:31

to the "self-righteous people." I

27:35

feel that in general,

27:38

if Christians ever start feeling

27:40

too at home in any one political

27:43

location or with any one political

27:45

party, something maybe is wrong

27:48

because our

27:50

ultimate longing and desires should

27:53

be for a perfect king, who is

27:55

Jesus Christ, and no

27:57

human being is ever gonna be able

27:59

to fill those shoes, so we should be

28:01

able to pick out flaws and places

28:04

where human beings are

28:07

coming up short, and that

28:09

doesn't mean we're being cynical or hypercritical

28:12

. It just means that we realize that no

28:14

human being can fill the

28:16

shoes of Jesus Christ. So we need to

28:18

be careful and remember what the Bible says

28:20

to put not our faith in princes. So I

28:24

appreciate what - your song, because

28:26

it was clear that you were wrestling with a lot of these

28:29

things, and like you, I don't have any perfect answers

28:31

at this point. And yeah,

28:34

sometimes I wonder if I'm wrong or I hope that I'm

28:36

wrong. Events

28:38

have not really suggested to

28:40

me that I'm wrong on many occasions in this regard

28:43

, especially recent events

28:45

. So I appreciate you

28:47

talking about that, and I think

28:49

it does - so many people I've talked

28:51

to who are of

28:54

this generation are feeling the same way,

28:56

very confused by wanting

28:58

to carry on that way of

29:01

- a Christian way of thinking about politics,

29:03

but being concerned about maybe a

29:05

wider variety of issues, or

29:08

at least not wanting to

29:09

so demonize the other side that

29:11

we can't even have a conversation anymore. So

29:15

yeah, I really appreciate that.

29:18

Moving on , you've been involved

29:20

in performing music in several

29:23

different settings: for Sunday

29:25

worship gatherings and performance with

29:27

other Christian artists, in completely

29:29

secular settings, and then recording

29:31

for private listening. How does your

29:33

mindset shift when you're

29:36

performing in those different circumstances,

29:38

particularly Christian versus

29:40

secular or when you're performing

29:43

actually in a worship service versus

29:46

in a concert or something along those

29:48

lines?

29:49

Yeah, no, that's a good question. It shifts

29:51

quite a bit. All of those

29:54

are - well, some people

29:56

have two mindsets. Some people say, "You just do your thing. Doesn't

29:58

matter who's in the crowd." I'm

30:00

a little bit more - I guess I feel

30:02

that my job

30:04

is to kind of facilitate connection,

30:07

at least generally Sunday morning worship

30:09

maybe . Well, maybe it's a version

30:12

of that: facilitating a connection

30:15

with God between all the people.

30:18

You know, a passion of mine and

30:20

hope of mine is that my music

30:23

would be palatable to

30:26

the degree that it makes sense to be palatable

30:28

without losing its with its essence.

30:31

It would be palatable to people who don't share

30:33

my beliefs or share my

30:35

faith. And by

30:37

that, I mean 0 I guess I try to be as

30:40

sincere and sincerely

30:44

devoted to God in a way without

30:48

using Christianese for instance,

30:50

or without appealing to

30:52

the lowest common denominator ways of connecting

30:54

with a crowd, making some kind

30:56

of Bible joke or some

30:58

Awana joke: something that would be very nichey.

31:01

Made that mistake,

31:03

I think a few times early on, and then

31:05

I found out that there was people in the crowd that

31:08

had come to our concert from

31:10

- who'd heard us from Praytell, which is kind of our

31:13

main, our kind of our secular band that

31:15

got us - our non-Christian devotional

31:18

music. Somebody had heard us at a club

31:21

and then come and seen us at a church because

31:23

they heard we were coming back to town and

31:25

I kind of code switched a little bit. And

31:29

they were in town and something

31:31

in my spirit felt like, "Man, did

31:34

I say something that maybe I wouldn't have

31:36

said at a different context?"

31:39

And I

31:41

don't think I necessarily did . I didn't regret - I didn't

31:44

say anything that I think I need to do

31:46

feel bad about, but it was more like I

31:48

should really just try to find that middle ground

31:51

as much as I can to try to speak

31:54

to everyone that

31:56

I know is going to be listening. But you

31:58

know, naturally that changes when I'm - as a worship

32:00

leader, I feel very much like my

32:02

job is to kind of bring a little bit of the

32:05

aesthetic, emotional timbre

32:08

to the liturgy, whatever that liturgy is.

32:10

I go to a little bit more of a liturgical

32:12

church now here in Austin, a PCA

32:15

church, and everything

32:18

is in service of the liturgy really,

32:20

and the sermon and it's beautiful.

32:23

I really enjoy it. Obviously

32:25

when I'm in a club or a

32:29

non-Christian venue, I will

32:32

try to just be in that setting

32:34

what I'm supposed to be, which is entertaining

32:36

and sincere. And people come up to me afterwards,

32:39

they often do and say, "Hey, that song

32:41

you sang called 'Stained Glass Windows,' tell

32:43

me more about that." And I remember

32:46

chatting with a girl who was very

32:48

- she'd had

32:50

several drinks by the time she was talking to me in

32:52

San Francisco about 'Stained Glass Windows'

32:54

and how much that song meant to her, and she

32:56

didn't know why. And it

32:59

was just - it was awesome. I felt very much like,

33:02

"This is beautiful. This is what it's

33:04

about."

33:05

Are there any Christian figures who

33:07

have particularly influenced you

33:09

in your spiritual life or

33:11

books and music that have been especially inspirational

33:14

for you?

33:16

Yeah, I would say poets

33:19

actually influence me more than

33:21

musicians or songwriters. Practically,

33:24

I love old sixties folk

33:26

like Dylan, Simon and Garfunkel. I

33:28

love wordy folk music, but in terms

33:31

of spiritual and artistic

33:33

influence, George Herbert, the

33:35

17th century priest and

33:38

poet from England - he has

33:40

a book of poetry called The Temple, which

33:42

I've read cover

33:44

to cover at least dozens

33:47

of times. I mean, I don't go a week without

33:49

reading it, at least a poem, and

33:51

the style can be a hair

33:54

clunky. You just kind of have to click into that style

33:57

a little bit. He's a contemporary of John

33:59

Donne and it's

34:02

just astounding, both ideas

34:04

wise, structurally the way

34:06

he plays with the English language. But he

34:09

was a pastor and

34:11

he wrote his poems I guess

34:14

when he wasn't doing pastoral things and

34:16

he died before any of his poems were published, and

34:20

he's one of the most revered poets

34:23

in the English language now. And

34:25

something about him working on his poems to

34:28

God, this masterwork of English poetry,

34:30

in absolute obscurity and

34:33

then dying before they're published is a very beautiful

34:35

story to me, and then seeing

34:39

the vibrancy and just absolute

34:43

burning with the love of God. Yeah.

34:45

It's enormously inspirational to me. So

34:47

I had to pick one, I would say, George Herbert.

34:50

Well, thank you for that recommendation. I'm going to have

34:52

to go out and read some of

34:55

his poems and yeah,

34:57

that's a good point I think, about - maybe

34:59

even a good American example would

35:02

be someone like Emily Dickinson who was

35:04

virtually unknown during her life, and then

35:07

afterwards - I mean, she wasn't maybe

35:09

as much of a strong Christian as George

35:11

Herbert was, but it does

35:13

sort of remind

35:16

you that we can't always

35:18

know how the different things we do

35:20

in our life are gonna affect

35:22

eternity or affect future

35:24

generations. And sometimes

35:26

we think the things we do that get a lot of

35:28

attention are the important

35:30

things, when actually

35:33

there are things that seem more mundane

35:35

to us that actually are the things God's going to use

35:38

a lot more long-term, so thank

35:41

you. That's interesting to hear. I always like to hear

35:43

how people have been influenced

35:45

by those who have gone before,

35:47

because knowing how I personally have been

35:49

influenced in much the same way by other writers, you

35:53

learn a lot about people when you find out who their influences

35:55

are. We've mentioned

35:58

a couple of times that you were recently able

36:00

to contribute some music for the film

36:02

A Hidden Life from director Terrence Malick.

36:05

How did you come to be involved in that

36:07

project? You talked a little bit about it, but

36:09

maybe you can give us a bit more explanation

36:11

and what was it like to work on something

36:13

for a film?

36:16

So, like I said , it was a connection

36:18

through a dear friend of ours and

36:20

we really had no business working

36:23

on music for a movie, but they

36:26

were looking for some very particular

36:29

type of music and we were able to kind

36:32

of deliver that for them. And really what

36:34

we contributed mostly was reductions

36:37

- what

36:39

were called shadows. So like orchestral

36:41

reductions, so like large pieces

36:43

by Bruckner or Bach, or

36:46

you name it: we would take

36:49

those large scale orchestra pieces and make them

36:51

small single, duo, or trio

36:54

violin pieces. And

36:58

the process was basically - it was very

37:00

iterative and experimental

37:03

and just trying

37:06

a lot of things. We must have

37:09

recorded two and a half hours of music. Obviously, not

37:13

all of it made it, but

37:15

the process of trying

37:17

it and then seeing it behind

37:20

footage and then getting

37:22

feedback from Malick and

37:24

the editors was just insanely

37:26

fun. I mean, it was so different for us and

37:28

we were flying to and forth from Austin

37:30

and going in to the

37:32

office to see how the music was working, and

37:35

some of it was not working at all, and some of it was like, "Whoa,

37:37

that really brings it to life!" So

37:39

we're doing that same thing with this

37:41

new movie and it's just

37:43

- it's mainly

37:45

very, very, very fun.

37:49

Well , I've seen a few

37:51

of his movies and it was a real delight

37:54

to be able to go see that one in the theater.

37:56

And first of all, I mean, it's such an incredible

37:59

film. I'd encourage anyone

38:01

who hasn't seen it, if you

38:03

can sit for three hours, it's

38:06

really worth it. I mean, his

38:09

films are always so contemplative

38:11

and he doesn't rush.

38:13

He lets you

38:15

sit and think about things. And

38:19

it seems like particularly

38:20

- I'm thinking now about the film

38:23

he had done previously, The Tree of Life, and

38:26

then with this one - in both of those, and

38:28

I'm sure in some of his other films, the

38:31

pieces of music that he chooses to

38:33

bring in, in addition to the score - and the

38:35

score for the film was written by the

38:38

great film composer, James

38:40

Newton Howard - but then, you know,

38:42

he always brings in as

38:44

a director, he brings in classical

38:46

pieces and other things that - It

38:48

seems like he

38:50

himself has such a great appreciation for

38:52

music and is very particular about which

38:55

pieces he wants to bring in to help tell his

38:57

story. So I just thought

38:59

it was so awesome that you were able to work with him

39:01

because even before

39:04

seeing that film, I already had some

39:06

knowledge of him

39:09

as a director and the fact of how important

39:11

music was to his films. So any

39:16

clues as to the - or do I need to go to

39:18

IMDb to find out what the next movie

39:21

is about?

39:22

Totally. So the next one

39:24

- right now it's called The Last

39:26

Planet, and

39:28

this is all public knowledge. It's a

39:30

film about Christ and

39:33

Peter actually, so it's

39:36

a period piece about Christ

39:39

through the eyes of Peter, and

39:44

it's just very, very

39:46

tremendous. That's all I can say.

39:49

The main editor lives

39:51

very close to us and is a good friend of ours, and two

39:54

nights ago we got to go over and just see

39:57

a bunch of stuff that he was

39:59

working on: him and

40:01

another person from the movie and a couple

40:03

of the people from the film. We do dinner with everybody

40:06

like every Friday night, and after

40:08

dinner last Friday, we went up and got

40:11

to see some footage and it's just - it's

40:13

cool. It'll be

40:16

a long time though, and it'll probably be long.

40:19

That's okay. I mean, especially if you have to wait

40:21

a long time for it, you don't want it to be only

40:23

90 minutes long.

40:27

Yeah, totally.

40:27

So I'll be looking forward to that whenever it's coming

40:29

out. People often

40:32

look to Christian music artists

40:34

as spiritual role models, for better

40:36

or for worse. Do you think this is

40:38

fair, and what

40:40

responsibility do Christians in the performing

40:42

arts have in this regard?

40:46

No , I mean, I don't think it's fair necessarily.

40:47

Fair: that's

40:51

an interesting descriptor.

40:54

I think it's like a necessary evil of

40:56

just the - We live in

40:59

a really weird time

41:01

where celebrity

41:03

just permeates everything: just that

41:06

celebrity dynamic and

41:09

whether that's, "Oh my goodness! I

41:11

saw The Bachelorette at Starbucks!"

41:13

and you feel whatever you feel - it's like that

41:16

is just so dumb

41:19

and just has nothing to do with

41:22

the things that really matter

41:25

in life, yet it kind of permeates everything.

41:28

I think probably there's a little bit of responsibility

41:30

that comes with just being aware of that. I

41:33

have a good

41:35

number of people that listen to my music at this point

41:37

in my career and understanding

41:40

that and seeing that for what it is

41:42

- trying to, I guess, dismantle

41:46

or I guess reject the sort of maybe

41:48

deference that I might get in certain situations.

41:50

I actively try to kind of fight against

41:53

that to the best of my

41:55

knowledge, and then seeing

41:57

it as a little bit of a, for better or for worse

41:59

- it is a responsibility that, you

42:01

know, maybe there's a 14-year-old kid

42:03

like me - like I was when I was 14

42:05

and the way I looked up to my heroes or whatever - my

42:09

musical heroes, I

42:11

guess. And seeing that

42:13

as a very weighty thing,

42:17

whether it's legitimate or not. When we

42:21

hear about people who fall

42:23

from ministry because of some moral thing, I mean,

42:27

it has ripple effects, whether it should

42:29

or not, and realizing

42:31

that to whatever small degree,

42:33

there's probably some stranger out there that

42:35

if I were to really betray my

42:41

message or my perceived message, it

42:44

would have ripple effects

42:46

in ways that I don't even realize. And

42:50

not that that's why I

42:52

don't do certain - I mean, hopefully I want to

42:55

live a certain way because of what it

42:57

means for God and for my immediate family and friends, but

42:59

I do take that seriously. I do take that

43:01

- just because I've been hurt

43:04

in that way from people that I've

43:06

looked up to that have then

43:08

disappointed me in pretty

43:10

serious ways. But I also think

43:12

that listeners need to realize

43:14

that Christian artists are

43:17

and performing artists, especially - it's

43:19

a lot of entertainers out

43:21

there. It's an industry

43:23

and people get into it because they

43:25

can make a buck. And it's not

43:28

always bad. Some people are good at -you know,

43:31

Christians need entertainment too, I

43:33

guess. I mean, if I had it my

43:35

way, there would probably be no Christian

43:37

entertainment, but thank goodness

43:39

I'm not in charge. But just

43:42

people to realize that we

43:46

are, I guess, not

43:49

always as pure as we'd like to be, I

43:51

suppose, but I do think there is a responsibility

43:53

whether or not it's - we all have influence, I guess, and I

43:58

think influence is a responsibility, however,

44:00

small.

44:03

Yeah. I really appreciate that answer

44:05

because I think that the

44:07

issue goes two ways. There's an importance

44:10

for those who are in any

44:12

kind of position of spiritual influence

44:14

and, for better or for worse, the Christian

44:16

musician or a Christian writer or

44:18

a famous pastor - You do have

44:21

some of that influence. So

44:23

there's a responsibility to live up

44:25

to the values that you're pushing, but on

44:28

the other side, people also need to understand

44:31

that we're not

44:33

to put people on this kind of pedestal

44:37

where we think of them no

44:39

longer as - well, okay, like I

44:41

was talking about earlier with politicians and - no longer

44:43

as fallible human beings, but as some kind of superhero

44:47

or something. We need to

44:49

realize that. And I think it's clear in

44:51

a lot of your music that you're a

44:53

person who's asking a lot of these spiritual

44:55

questions, just the same as everybody else.

44:57

And the point of the artist is

44:59

not to give people

45:02

an example of how to be perfect, but maybe

45:04

to teach people how to question well, to

45:06

invite people, to come alongside them in

45:08

the spiritual journey, and I

45:11

think that your music does a really good job

45:13

of that. But it's something that I would be curious

45:15

to ask any Christian artists , just because I think

45:17

there is a lot of pressure

45:20

from people's expectations, and then

45:23

you do see famous - you'll hear

45:26

about some Christian artist from your

45:28

youth who now says they're not a Christian anymore,

45:30

and it really shakes people. They're

45:33

like, "Oh, is any if that real if so and

45:35

so..." And

45:38

it's like, "Well, what were you

45:40

thinking? I mean, this person was a 20-year-old,

45:42

basically a kid when you were listening to them

45:45

get up there and p lays the drums. They never claimed

45:47

to be a theologian on par with Augustine." But

45:52

I think people's expectations can be

45:54

kind of crazy, and like you said, our obsession

45:57

with celebrity probably doesn't help at all either.

46:00

So just to wrap things up, you've shared

46:02

a little bit about what we can expect from

46:04

you in the future with the movie that you're working

46:07

on. Is there anything else that you have in the works?

46:10

What are you hoping for when hopefully

46:12

someday COVID will be over, or what are you hoping to do then?

46:17

Yeah. Well, hoping to tour again. There's

46:20

a connection that happens when

46:22

you release an album and then you

46:24

play that new album live in front

46:26

of people that have been listening to it. There's a really cool connection

46:29

that happens, and I've kind

46:31

of been missing that. So I'm looking forward to that,

46:33

hopefully post-COVID. And

46:36

even before that, I do foresee

46:40

in the near future releasing more

46:43

music, so that my last - Keeper

46:45

of Days, there was

46:47

five years in between albums. I'm

46:50

not going to take another five years: I know that for sure.

46:52

I might release

46:54

- whether it's another album - probably not another album,

46:56

but at least another set of songs in 2021

46:58

- this year. So

47:01

I'm just in a good rhythm here. Writing wise, my mornings

47:04

are very sacred, I'm home, and a lot that's coming out.

47:10

Well, that's good. We have something to look forward to

47:12

in 2021. Anything we can look forward to and encourage us

47:16

right now is a good thing. Well, Jon,

47:19

thank you so much for taking the time

47:21

to talk with me, and I hope

47:23

our discussion is a blessing to a lot of people. Yeah,

47:26

I hope so too.

47:26

[MUSIC PLAYS] I need to know there is justice, that it will roll in abundance, and that you're building a city where we arrive as immigrants and you call us citizens and you welcome us as children home. [MUSIC ENDS]

47:55

It was a real pleasure to speak with John. His

47:57

latest effort, Keeper of Days, is available

47:59

for digital streaming of both the audio and visual

48:02

album. You can also visit the site,

48:04

jonguerramusic.com for

48:06

tour dates, merchandise, and other information.

48:09

Of course, we all look forward to the end of the COVID pandemic

48:12

when we can actually go to concerts again. "The

48:15

spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' And

48:17

let the one who hears say, 'Come!

48:19

And let one who is thirsty, come. Let

48:22

the one who desires take the water of life

48:24

without cost. He who testifies

48:27

to these things says, 'Yes, I

48:29

am coming quickly.' Amen.

48:31

Come Lord Jesus. The grace

48:33

of the Lord Jesus be with all."

48:35

Amen. Have a great week.

48:39

[MUSIC PLAYS] Is there a way to live always living in enemy

48:43

hallways? Don't know my foes

48:45

from my friends and don't know my

48:47

friends anymore. Power

48:50

has several prizes.

48:52

Handcuffs can come in all sizes.

48:56

Love has a million disguises,

48:57

but winning

48:59

is simply not one

49:01

. [MUSIC ENDS]