0:08

I have a heart full of questions quieting all my

0:10

suggestions. What is the meaning

0:13

of Christian in this American life? I'm

0:17

feeling awfully foolish

0:19

spending my life on a message.

0:22

I look around and I wonder ever if I heard it right.

0:27

Welcome to the (A)Millennial podcast,

0:30

where we have theological conversations

0:32

for today's world. I'm your host,

0:34

Amy Mantravadi, coming to you live

0:37

from Dayton, Ohio home of the

0:38

Dayton Triangles football team. No,

0:41

the Triangles aren't around anymore, but they

0:43

were one of the original members of what eventually

0:45

became the National Football League. They

0:48

won the first game ever played in that league, beating

0:50

the Columbus P anhandles 14 to 0.

0:52

Today, it's safe

0:54

to say that Columbus has D ayton beat in

0:56

the football department...along with Cleveland

0:58

and Cincinnati. But enough about football.

1:01

Let's turn to the main topic for today. I'll

1:04

be interviewing author Jasmine L . H

1:06

olmes about her beautiful book, Mother to

1:08

Son: Letters to a Black Boy

1:10

o n Identity and Hope. She wrote these letters

1:12

to her e ldest son when she was pregnant

1:14

with his brother, and in them she shares her

1:17

thoughts about various forms of identity:

1:19

familial, racial, and spiritual.

1:22

She addresses some of the most pressing questions

1:24

about ethnicity and racial reconciliation,

1:27

but her book has relevance beyond those debates.

1:30

It is also a picture of how mothers relate

1:32

to their children and how that kind of familial

1:35

love should be characteristic of how

1:37

all Christians e ngage with one another. Scripture tells

1:40

us that all human beings are created in the

1:42

image of God and thus filled with infinite

1:44

worth. In Genesis chapter one,

1:47

verses 26 through 27, we read,

1:50

"Then God said, 'Let us make mankind

1:52

in our image, according to our likeness,

1:55

and let them rule over the fish of the sea

1:57

and over the birds of the sky and over the

1:59

livestock and over all the earth and

2:01

over every crawling thing that crawls on the

2:03

earth.' So God created man

2:05

in his own image. In the image of God

2:08

he created him. Male and female He

2:10

created them." Unfortunately,

2:13

humanity fell into sin, and ever

2:15

since that point we have been turning against

2:17

each other and failing to value each other's

2:19

worth. In the words of James, we

2:22

have been making distinctions among ourselves,

2:24

becoming judges with evil motives rather

2:27

than obeying the royal law to love our

2:29

neighbors as ourselves. We have shown partiality,

2:32

committing sin and being convicted by

2:34

the law as violators. But

2:36

the good news is that Jesus Christ,

2:38

by laying down his life and taking it

2:40

back up again, has made possible

2:42

reconciliation not only between

2:44

God and man, but also between

2:46

man and man. This ushered

2:48

in a new era in which the mystery

2:51

of Christ was revealed: that people

2:53

of all nations w ould be part of God's household, and

2:55

that in the seed of Abraham, which is Jesus

2:57

Christ, all the nations would be blessed.

3:00

Paul writes about this so wonderfully in

3:02

his Epistle to the Ephesians, speaking of

3:05

the way that Jews and non-Jews were reconciled

3:07

i n Christ. "For

3:09

he himself is our peace who made

3:12

both groups into one and broke down

3:14

the barrier of the dividing wall by

3:16

abolishing in his flesh the hostility,

3:18

which is the law composed of commandments

3:21

expressed in ordinances, so that

3:23

in himself, he might make the two one new

3:26

person, in this way establishing

3:28

peace, and that he might reconcile them

3:30

both in one body to God through the

3:32

cross, by it having put to death

3:34

the hostility. And he came and

3:36

preached peace to you who were far away

3:39

and peace to those who were near, for

3:41

through him we both have our access in

3:43

one spirit to the Father. So then you

3:45

are no longer strangers and foreigners,

3:47

but you are fellow citizens with the saints

3:49

and a re of God's household." That's

3:51

Ephesians chapter two, verses 14 through

3:54

19. That is

3:56

the biblical basis on which we ought to embrace

3:58

one another i n love, regardless of ethnicity.

4:01

Now let's go to the interview where I'll be discussing

4:03

this issue and others with Jasmine.

4:14

[inaudible]

4:16

And I'm here with Jasmine L. Holmes

4:18

, the author of Mother to Son:

4:20

Letters to a Black Boy on Identity and

4:22

Hope. She was educated at

4:24

Thomas Edison State University and

4:27

has taught every grade from preschool

4:29

to 12th grade. She's part of the Let's

4:31

Talk podcast, blogs at jasminelhomes

4:35

.com, and has contributed articles to

4:37

Desiring God, The Gospel Coalition,

4:40

Christianity Today, Modern Reformation,

4:42

and Fathom. You can support

4:44

her work at patreon.com/jasminelholmes.

4:48

Currently she is teaching humanities

4:50

and Latin at the sixth grade level and her

4:53

published works include Identity

4:55

Theft: Reclaiming the Truth

4:57

of our Identity in Christ, to which she was a

4:59

contributor; His Testimonies,

5:01

My Heritage: Women of Color and the

5:03

Word of God, to which she was also a

5:05

contributor; and the book we're going to talk

5:07

about today, Mother to Son. You

5:09

can catch her on Twitter and Instagram

5:11

@JasmineLHolmes or on

5:13

Facebook /JasLHolmes. So

5:20

Jasmine , I understand from your book that you're a fan

5:23

of birth stories, is that correct?

5:25

Yes. I am a huge fan of birth

5:27

stories.

5:28

All right. Well, I did some digging around

5:30

to try to find one that was particularly

5:33

interesting. In fact, I think it's probably the

5:35

oddest birth story that I've ever heard. Do

5:37

you know anything about

5:40

the Suriname Toad?

5:42

No.

5:44

Well, most people don't, so I'm not surprised

5:46

that you haven't heard about it. As I

5:49

said, I did some digging around and

5:51

on the website of the San Diego Zoo, this

5:53

is what it has to say about the

5:56

reproductive process of the Suriname Toad. "Males

5:59

call to the females by making a

6:01

clicking sound underwater. A willing

6:04

female releases 60 to 100

6:06

eggs and the male fertilizes them and

6:08

pushes the eggs onto her back, where

6:10

they stick to her skin. During the

6:12

next few days, her skin grows

6:14

up and around the eggs, forming

6:17

a honeycomb structure of pockets and

6:19

eventually encloses them completely. After

6:22

hatching, the young ride on her back for three

6:24

to four months, continuing to develop

6:26

under her skin. When ready,

6:29

the fully formed toadlets push and squirm

6:31

to loosen the female's skin. The pockets

6:33

on her back open up to reveal the snouts

6:35

and waving feet of the toadlets. When

6:38

they're ready, they pop out of their holes

6:40

and head for the water's surface to breathe

6:42

and begin life on their own. The little toadlets

6:44

can start snapping at food right away and

6:46

don't care if that food happens to be a

6:48

sibling. The mother then sheds her skin,

6:50

ready for the next breeding season."

6:53

It really warms your heart

6:56

when you hear a birth story like that, doesn't it?

6:58

I was so scared for the mother!

7:00

I was like, "Are they going to eat her?" I was on the edge

7:03

of my seat. I'm so glad she's

7:05

okay.

7:07

Well, the mother's okay, but apparently

7:10

the siblings are not. I

7:14

actually thought of this because my husband

7:16

and I love to watch nature documentaries,

7:19

and we saw some

7:21

feature on this a few years back, and I remember

7:24

when I saw it , it was the most bizarre birth

7:26

that I'd ever witnessed. So I

7:28

just thought I'd throw that in there, along with a lot

7:31

of the more heartwarming birth stories

7:33

that you've probably heard.

7:36

That was so scary. My heart was beating so fast.

7:38

Well, moving

7:40

on to a more serious topic

7:43

of your book and discussing

7:45

the purposes of your book. You say

7:47

that you want "to see brothers and sisters

7:49

of every tribe, tongue and nation

7:51

dwelling in unity, not by flattening

7:54

God-given ethnic and cultural identities,

7:56

but by living in the gloriously diverse

7:58

reality of those identities for his glory."

8:01

So I'm wondering how do we tend

8:04

to flatten out the identities of

8:06

our brothers and sisters in Christ, and do

8:08

you think this is a result of fear

8:11

or letting ourselves off the hook

8:13

or something else? What are your thoughts

8:16

on that?

8:16

Yeah, I think it can be the result of a lot of things.

8:19

Some ways that identity can be flattened is

8:21

just an unwillingness to have conversation

8:24

about different identities,

8:26

different experiences, different

8:29

backgrounds, different ethnicities.

8:32

It kind of happens when we get

8:34

threatened by differences

8:36

instead of embracing them as

8:39

God given and God ordained . And that

8:41

can happen for a lot of reasons. Sometimes it's fear.

8:43

Sometimes it's fear that the person is

8:45

trying to draw us away from making the gospel

8:47

the main thing. Sometimes it's guilt

8:51

over what our ancestors did

8:53

or didn't do. Sometimes it's

8:55

pride - just not wanting to be taught

8:57

anything. And sometimes it's just trying

8:59

to do the best that you can to love

9:02

people in spite of differences by pretending

9:04

like those differences don't exist. So I

9:06

think that there's a variety of reasons

9:08

and I want to be careful not to ascribe

9:11

one to everybody.

9:13

Sure. It's a very complicated issue. It's

9:17

hard to then put everybody into

9:19

one category and probably good not to do that,

9:21

but I appreciate you talking a little

9:23

bit about that. Toward the beginning of your

9:25

book, you do take a moment

9:27

to reflect on the nature of

9:29

the mother-son relationship, and you

9:32

write that, "Mothers and sons have been part

9:34

of God's redemptive story since the beginning

9:37

of time. My love for you," - that is,

9:39

for your son who you're writing to - "is

9:41

the echo of a heart that has been beating

9:43

for a millennia." I just thought that was such

9:45

a sweet and beautiful couple

9:48

of sentences that you had. In light of

9:50

that, are there any particular mother-son

9:52

relationships in Scripture that

9:54

have really resonated with you as

9:56

you raise your children?

9:57

Mary and Jesus, definitely. As

10:01

somebody who loves a good birth story, the

10:04

fact that Mary was nine months pregnant

10:06

on a donkey's back is incredible

10:09

to me, but also

10:11

just the fact that

10:13

this young girl - that her

10:16

womb was used to carry the king of

10:18

the universe is incredible.

10:21

It really speaks to God elevating

10:23

motherhood and even elevating

10:25

birth and elevating

10:28

child rearing and showing us how important

10:30

that is that he made it central to his plan

10:32

for the saving of creation.

10:35

Yeah, and we're definitely - I mean, as we record

10:37

we're in the Christmas season. This will be probably

10:41

released after Christmas, but it definitely is a time that

10:43

we're having that brought to our mind.

10:45

And I know definitely

10:48

going through in the past couple of years pregnancy

10:51

and then childbirth, I did feel

10:53

a little more connection with Mary and

10:55

with her story, and that's one that for various reasons

10:57

has been a little deemphasized among Protestant

10:59

Christians, but I

11:01

think that there's definitely a rightful

11:04

place for focusing on that. And

11:07

as you pointed out, she's the culmination

11:09

of all that long line of mothers

11:11

throughout the Old Testament, coming down to that

11:13

relationship. One of the most powerful

11:16

parts of your book for me

11:18

was when you said the following: "Sweet

11:21

boy, I do not say these things to jade

11:23

you. As I teach you these lessons, I pray

11:25

that they don't come from a place of bitterness

11:27

or a life ruled by fear. I want

11:29

them to flow from a place of wisdom. I

11:32

can't just see you as my sweet little boy.

11:34

I have to visualize the man that you'll become,

11:36

and I must prepare you to face the world in his skin."

11:40

I appreciated when you made comments like

11:42

this, because I'm sure some

11:44

people will claim that you're raising

11:46

your son to be distrustful of or even

11:48

bitter toward others. What

11:50

do you think that comments like

11:52

that would fail to capture about

11:55

the experience of being a black American and

11:57

how do you strike that balance as a mother

11:59

between proper vigilance

12:01

that's in line with biblical truth and

12:03

a mindset that is overly bitter?

12:07

Such a binary

12:09

perception of America,

12:13

American history, American culture. Either

12:16

it's all good or it's all bad. Either telling

12:19

the truth about America's

12:21

sometimes racist history is

12:23

going to be something that's helpful or

12:25

it's going to be something that's damaging. And

12:27

I really think that taking our

12:30

American exceptionalism out of the

12:32

center of our focus

12:35

is going to be such an important step

12:37

in me answering this question. So I'm

12:39

working on a book right now about ten black

12:41

women in American history who I think

12:43

that we should know about, who I didn't know about before

12:46

I started working on this book. And one of

12:48

the major critiques that I get

12:50

from people is, "Okay, but is it going to be a book that

12:52

talks bad about America? Because there's enough books out

12:54

there that talk bad about America." And it's like, this book - To see the

12:58

stories of these women as

13:00

only a reflection of America

13:02

is to limit God's glory

13:04

in the lives of these women as people

13:07

that are used by him. America is incidental

13:10

to the story that God is telling in

13:12

the lives of these women, and America

13:14

is incidental to the story that God is

13:16

telling in the life of my son. So my

13:18

goal is not to raise him to

13:20

be, you know, the most patriotic

13:22

person in the world. My goal is not to raise him to be a person

13:24

that hates America. My goal is not to raise

13:26

him as a person who is completely

13:29

focused on racism to the exclusion of everything else.

13:31

My goal is also not to race him as a person

13:33

who ignores racism. My goal is to raise

13:35

him as a person who holistically sees

13:38

that God's hand is moving

13:40

in history and moving in his life,

13:42

and he has been given unique opportunities

13:45

because of that ethnicity, because of his

13:47

parentage, because of the place that he was raised

13:49

to give glory to God in the context

13:51

that he's in. And I think that once we move

13:54

kind of America's street cred and America's

13:56

rep out of the center,

13:58

we're really, really able to see

14:00

God's glory just shining through.

14:04

Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to

14:07

having a vision of God's

14:10

plan and his kingdom that's bigger than just

14:12

America, and historically

14:15

American Christians have had a real tendency

14:17

to see ourselves kind of as the new chosen

14:19

people of God, and some of that goes

14:21

back to a lot of rhetoric that's popped up in

14:24

American history at different times.

14:26

But if you think about the fact that we know

14:28

that human beings can

14:31

tend more toward sinfulness or righteousness,

14:33

depending on how much God is working

14:35

in their lives - so it makes sense that

14:38

nations made up of human beings would sometimes

14:40

tend more towards sinfulness and sometimes more toward

14:42

righteousness. But I do think that

14:45

it's a tough line probably - not

14:47

speaking from personal experience - but I would assume

14:49

as a mother of a black

14:52

male child particularly, like you talk about,

14:54

that is a little bit of a tough road to walk

14:56

because people bring in all this

14:59

political baggage to their assumptions

15:01

that they then place on you about how you're raising

15:03

your son, and they - Some

15:05

people, of course, tend much more

15:09

toward the America's always good narrative and

15:11

some toward the America's always bad narrative, and

15:13

of course the truth is somewhere in the middle.

15:15

So yeah , it's a lot of pressure

15:17

to put on someone like you to try to be

15:19

raising your son in the midst of all that. But some

15:22

of the things you talk about in the book are

15:24

a really good approach to that. You speak

15:26

about your own journey to motherhood,

15:28

which has involved not only moments

15:30

of joy, but also moments of grief. How

15:33

has God used these experiences

15:35

to shape you as a mother and as a Christian?

15:39

He has used

15:41

my miscarriages

15:43

in particular to show me

15:46

the fragility of human

15:48

life - the preciousness of human life.

15:51

He's made me almost

15:54

an extra measure thankful

15:56

for the two healthy boys

15:58

that I do have because I have

16:00

seen up close and personal just how much

16:03

sustaining he has to do from the moment

16:05

of conception until the moment that they're born.

16:08

He's shown me that as fragile as babies

16:10

are in the womb, I'm that far fragile

16:12

as an adult, and I still need God

16:14

to constantly oversee

16:17

my health, my

16:19

life, my livelihood. He's

16:21

just used it to emphasize my need

16:23

of him, not just for myself, but

16:25

truly in trusting him for

16:28

the lives of my children.

16:30

I think that's good that parenthood provides us

16:32

with so many metaphors of the spiritual

16:34

life, and like you said, it could

16:36

help us realize that even in this era of

16:39

scientific progress, we can

16:41

feel almost invulnerable sometimes, and then

16:43

you have something like that, or

16:46

this year happening with the whole world with the coronavirus

16:48

pandemic, when we realize, "Yeah, life

16:50

really is still very fragile."

16:53

So it's always a good observation

16:55

to have. Two popular

16:58

and common phrases that you discuss at

17:00

length in your book are first that,

17:02

"Race is just a social construct,

17:04

and second that we should "just preach

17:07

the gospel" - in response

17:09

to calls for racial reconciliation

17:11

that we should just preach the gospel. You explain

17:14

that each of these phrases contains an element

17:16

of the truth, but both end

17:18

up being largely unhelpful.

17:21

Could you explain that a little bit?

17:22

Yeah. For the "race just a social construct" - It's

17:24

so interesting because the same people

17:27

that say race is just a social construct don't

17:29

really want to talk about how or why race

17:31

became a social construct and who made it

17:33

a social construct. So "race is just

17:35

a social construct" then just

17:37

becomes kind of a dog whistle to

17:40

silence people from talking about race and not

17:42

necessarily, "Hey, an actual conversation

17:44

about that. That is true that race is

17:47

a social construct. How did that become a construct?

17:50

How has that social construct been used and to

17:52

what benefit was the social construct

17:54

of race constructed?" So that

17:57

one is just kind of - it's an

17:59

empty thing that people say that is true, that race

18:02

is indeed a social construct. We are all one

18:04

race: the human race. The argument

18:06

isn't that different ethnicities

18:08

are worth different things, right? Or different ethnicities are

18:12

inherently different kinds

18:14

of people. The argument has always been

18:16

that this social construct has been used

18:19

to denigrate and to

18:21

disenfranchise certain people

18:23

for hundreds of years.

18:26

So saying that race is just a social construct is

18:28

just like the cream on top of

18:30

the conversation. As far as

18:32

"just preach the gospel" goes, that one's a little bit more

18:35

of a minefield because it can sound

18:37

like I'm saying the gospel is not sufficient

18:39

for really facing issues

18:42

of race, racism,

18:45

ethnicity, confusion, all the above

18:47

in the Church. And the phrase "just

18:49

preach the gospel" sounds really good

18:52

on its face, but the gospel

18:54

of Christ isn't just all

18:56

the good things that we're supposed to be doing.

18:58

The gospel of Christ is literally the story

19:00

of him coming to the world, dying on

19:02

the cross for our sins and reconciling a people

19:04

to himself. There's a lot in the Bible that's not

19:07

the gospel. There's a lot in the Bible that's law.

19:10

There's a lot in the Bible that's exposition. There's

19:12

a lot in the Bible that's commands. The

19:15

gospel is the message that

19:17

we are called to preach. The supremacy

19:19

of the gospel is incredibly important

19:21

and cannot be overstated, but the

19:23

truths of the gospel

19:26

have to be applied in ways

19:28

beyond just preaching the

19:30

gospel. And what I mean by that is part

19:33

of preaching the gospel is preaching

19:35

that once we are saved, how

19:37

do we walk in the new faith that we've

19:39

been given? That walk is not

19:41

technically the gospel. That walk

19:44

is after the gospel - it is separate

19:46

from the gospel. So I think it can be a misunderstanding

19:49

and a misapplication of what the word gospel

19:51

actually means and what the purpose of the gospel

19:53

is.

19:55

And one of the problems with both

19:58

of those phrases is that word "just."

20:00

Race is a social construct,

20:03

but to say it's just a social

20:05

construct ignores

20:07

the way it's been used and what it's meant

20:09

in human history. It is more - at this

20:12

stage it's much more than just a social construct,

20:14

and then just preaching the gospel

20:17

can make it sound, as you said, like there are no

20:19

implications - like that incredible message

20:21

of the gospel would have no effect on our lives, and

20:24

the fact that God has reconciled

20:26

with us would not affect our

20:28

desire to reconcile with each other. So, yeah,

20:31

I thought that the passages where you talked

20:33

about that were very helpful. This

20:36

book was written before the historic

20:39

protests that occurred in 2020 following

20:41

the death of George Floyd at the hands of

20:43

police. In light of your recent

20:45

reflections, which I'm assuming you like

20:47

everyone else have had about this, is there

20:50

anything that you'd like to add to what you wrote

20:52

in your book? Or do you think that

20:55

this is pretty much just confirming a lot of

20:57

the stuff that you had already written?

20:59

I have been very

21:01

blessed in that there is nothing that

21:03

I would like to add or take away

21:05

from my book. I think because

21:08

it was written to address a specific moment

21:10

in my life and to address my son

21:12

at a specific crossroads in his

21:14

young life, that book captures

21:17

a moment of motherhood that

21:20

I wouldn't change for anything.

21:23

It's what I wanted to tell him in that moment.

21:25

You know, I was pregnant with my second born son. It's what

21:27

I wanted to tell both of them in that moment, and

21:30

the truths are timeless and apply

21:32

in a time where America is

21:34

filled with historic unrest,

21:37

but will still apply when America

21:39

is at a place of more peace.

21:42

Yeah, I think that's a good point. You spend

21:44

a significant amount of time, especially

21:47

toward the end of the book, explaining principles we

21:49

should keep in mind on social media

21:51

and when having political discussions. And of

21:53

course, conversations about race

21:56

are some of the more controversial ones we tend to

21:58

have. And this highlights

22:00

the fact that politics and the internet

22:02

both tend to amplify our differences

22:05

and lead to a worsening of our discourse

22:07

here in the U.S. Our communication

22:09

in both areas, at least to me, seemed

22:11

to get even worse this past year. So

22:14

what are some principles Christians should keep in

22:16

mind when engaging on social media

22:18

or discussing controversial issues?

22:21

Social media...it's just a slice

22:23

of the pie. These conversations

22:26

and these changes really do happen in person

22:28

and in community. And so using social

22:30

media as a stand-in for that is

22:32

always going to be a sub-par

22:34

representation of what it's actually like

22:36

to walk alongside people. Social media....t's

22:40

a way for us to show off the best of ourselves,

22:42

but it's also a way for us to show off the worst

22:44

of ourselves, and I think that understanding

22:47

that and living our lives

22:49

in light of the truth that social media is

22:51

a tool, not a

22:55

supreme thing that needs to be the center

22:57

of our lives is really important. I

22:59

think also just intellectual honesty, which

23:01

can only happen if we're less concerned

23:03

about fitting into a certain camp and more concerned

23:06

about the truth of the gospel. Sometimes I upset

23:08

people on the Left. Sometimes I have set people

23:10

on the Right. Neither of those

23:12

are my home because this world is not my home. So

23:15

I think just really understanding that these little camps,

23:17

these little tribes are not our homes really

23:19

contributes to integrity

23:21

in this discourse.

23:24

Yeah, I think those are some good, helpful points.

23:26

You have a couple more books in the works, one

23:28

of which you alluded to briefly. Any

23:31

more hints as to what you'll be tackling next?

23:34

So the book about the women, a young

23:36

adult version of that book, and then I'm also

23:38

working on a book about

23:41

-What can I say without giving too much away? It's

23:43

about shame . I'll

23:46

just say that it's about shame: womanhood

23:48

and shame.

23:49

All right. Well, those all sound really interesting.

23:51

You know, particularly I love

23:54

history and Church history and the

23:56

history of the African-American

23:59

Church, or I guess you could say the African-American

24:02

portion of the Church universal has

24:04

been largely ignored. And so I think

24:06

it's great that you're bringing some of those stories

24:09

into greater light . So we'll look

24:11

forward to that. And thank you so much

24:13

for joining me to talk about your book. I

24:16

enjoyed it and hope you did too.

24:18

Thank you so much for having me on.

24:44

[inaudible] .

24:46

It was an honor to speak with Jasmine today

24:48

about her book, Mother to Son: Letters

24:50

to a Black Boy on Identity and Hope, which

24:53

is published by InterVarsity. Press be

24:55

sure to keep an eye out for future books from

24:57

this proud "boy mom." For the uninitiated,

24:59

boy mom means mother to at least

25:02

one boy. It's a thing - I swear. We

25:04

have membership cards. As always, today's music

25:07

is by Christian recording artist Jon Guerra

25:09

off his album, Keeper of Days. If

25:11

you enjoy this podcast, consider leaving

25:13

an honest review on iTunes or wherever

25:15

you are listening to it and tell your friends about

25:17

it. As a matter of fact, tell your enemies

25:19

as well, since they probably need to be convicted

25:22

by the Spirit. Now to him who is

25:24

able to protect you from stumbling and

25:26

to make you stand in the presence of his glory,

25:28

blameless with great joy, to the only

25:30

God our savior through Jesus Christ our

25:32

Lord, be glory, majesty,

25:35

dominion, and authority before

25:37

all time and now and forever.

25:40

Amen.

25:41

Is there a way to live always?

25:44

Living in [inaudible] hallways. Don't know my foes from my

25:48

friends and don't know my friends

25:51

anymore. Power has several prizes. Handcuffs can come in all sizes. All

25:57

sizes love has a million

25:59

disguises. The winning

26:02

is simply not one.