0:07

(MUSIC PLAYING) I have a heart full of questions quieting all my suggestions. What

0:12

is the meaning of Christian in this American life?

0:17

I'm feeling awfully foolish

0:19

spending my life on a message. I look around and I wonder ever if I heard

0:26

it right. (MUSIC STOPS)

0:28

Welcome to the (A)Millennial podcast, where we

0:30

have theological conversations for today's

0:32

world. I'm your host, Amy Mantravadi,

0:34

coming to you live from Dayton, Ohio,

0:37

popularly known as the Gem City...although no

0:40

one can tell me why. Whether

0:42

you're enjoying the fall colors or locked up in quarantine, thank

0:44

you so much for listening. I hope today's discussion

0:47

will be beneficial for you. I'm

0:49

going to be speaking with Rachel Joy Welcher

0:51

about her new book, Talking Back to Purity Culture, and I'd

0:54

like to offer a word of explanation before we begin.

0:57

First of all, today's podcast will involve

0:59

issues related to sexuality, and therefore

1:01

may not be appropriate for small children. Second,

1:05

you might be tempted to think from the title of Rachel's

1:07

book that she is calling for greater sexual

1:09

license among Christians than what the Church has

1:11

traditionally taught, but this is not

1:13

the case. Both Rachel and I believe

1:16

that sexual activity ought to occur only

1:18

between a husband and wife as scripture teaches.

1:20

However, the Church has sometimes added

1:22

harmful teachings to this simple biblical

1:24

truth, and that's what we hope to address

1:26

today. I'd like to start

1:28

a tradition of beginning each episode with

1:30

one or more scripture passages that are relevant

1:33

to the day's discussion. For this episode,

1:35

I will read from Paul's first epistle

1:37

to the Corinthians, chapter six, verses

1:40

nine through 20. "Or do you not

1:42

know that the unrighteous will not inherit

1:44

the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:

1:46

neither fornicators, nor idolaters,

1:49

nor adulterers, nor effeminate,

1:51

nor homosexuals, nor thieves,

1:53

nor the covetous, nor drunkards,

1:55

nor revilers, nor swindlers will

1:58

inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you,

2:01

but you were washed, but you were sanctified,

2:04

but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and

2:07

in the Spirit of our God. All

2:09

things are lawful for me, but not all

2:11

things are profitable. All things

2:14

are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered

2:16

by anything. Food is for the stomach

2:19

and the stomach is for food, but God

2:21

will do away with both of them. Yet the body

2:23

is not for immorality, but

2:26

for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body.

2:28

Now God has not only raised the Lord,

2:31

but will also raise up us through

2:33

his power. Do you not know that

2:35

your bodies are members of Christ? Shall

2:37

I then take away the members of Christ and make them

2:39

members of a prostitute? May it never

2:41

be! Or do you not know that

2:43

the one who joins himself to a prostitute

2:45

is one body with her? For he says

2:48

the two shall become one flesh, but

2:50

the one who joins himself to the Lord is one

2:52

spirit with him. Flee immorality.

2:55

Every other sin that a man commits is outside

2:58

the body, but the immoral man sins

3:00

against his own body. Or do you not

3:02

know that your body is a temple of the Holy

3:05

Spirit, who is in you, whom you have

3:07

from God, and that you are not your own?

3:10

For you have been bought with a price; therefore,

3:12

glorify God in your body." And

3:15

that was First Corinthians 6:9-20 from

3:17

the New American Standard Bible. Thanks

3:20

be to God for his Word. Now let's

3:22

head to the interview.

3:23

(MUSIC

3:23

PLAYING)

3:33

I'm with Rachel Welcher , who is my

3:35

first guest on the (A)Millennial

3:37

podcast. How are you doing today, Rachel?

3:40

I'm doing great. So glad to be here.

3:42

Yeah, it's great to talk to you. Of course

3:44

we've interacted quite a bit on Twitter

3:47

and over email over the past few

3:49

years, but it's great to be able to

3:52

talk to you, not in person , but about

3:54

as close as we can get in these days of

3:56

COVID. So just

3:59

to introduce Rachel a little bit to

4:01

everyone who's listening , she studied

4:04

at The Masters University and

4:06

St. Andrew's University, which was

4:08

actually how we initially first got

4:10

in contact because she was working

4:13

on this same project while she was at

4:15

St. Andrew's, and I was one of

4:17

the lucky people to read a little bit of it at

4:19

that time. Before that

4:22

she worked for 10 years as a high

4:24

school English teacher. She's contributed

4:26

articles to The Gospel Coalition,

4:27

Relevant, Mere Orthodoxy,

4:31

The Englewood Review of Books and other websites, and

4:34

she's currently working as an editor and

4:36

columnist for Fathom magazine.

4:39

Her published works include

4:41

two books of poetry. The first is Blue

4:43

Tarp and the second is Two Funerals,

4:45

Then Easter. And then most recently

4:48

the book we're going to be talking about today, Talking

4:50

Back to Purity Culture. You can

4:53

find her on social media.

4:55

On Twitter and Instagram she's @RachelJWelcher and

4:59

on Facebook @RachelJoyWelcher, nd that

5:02

is Rachel without the second

5:04

A. So yeah,

5:06

I think that just about sums it up.

5:09

So tell me , Rachel,

5:12

you're getting about ready for your

5:14

book to be released on

5:16

November 10. How are you feeling about

5:18

it? I saw that you just got your first

5:20

copies - official copies in the mail.

5:22

How was that getting to open up t he box?

5:25

Oh, man, it was kind of like Christmas

5:27

morning to be honest. It's been

5:30

so exciting to see some

5:32

of the early reader reviews and

5:35

I just feel like God is answering my prayers.

5:38

You know, I've been working

5:40

on this book for about three years. As

5:42

you said, you were one of the people

5:44

who helped me edit some of my early

5:47

research. Amy is a very good

5:48

editor. So it's

5:53

been a long time coming, and so

5:55

many prayers have gone into this project

5:58

and to be able to see people holding it in their hands

6:01

is - not to be cheesy, but

6:03

it really is a dream come true for a writer.

6:05

So I'm very excited.

6:08

Well, I should make clear to everyone that I didn't

6:10

pay you anything to say that I'm a great editor.

6:12

But I definitely

6:18

do remember when I was reading

6:20

over your, I guess, thesis

6:23

it was called at the master's level,

6:25

and thinking, "Man, this really should be a book."

6:28

And now it is a book, which is just amazing

6:30

. Again , I'm so glad that I could talk to you

6:32

about it in the podcast. So

6:35

just digging into the book itself

6:37

a bit , and the first page

6:39

, you write a little bit about

6:41

what your plan is to do with the book and

6:44

sort of the literature that's come out

6:47

in the late 90s and early 2000s , as

6:50

part of this purity culture movement. And

6:53

you write that, "The books I had read promised

6:56

that premarital purity would

6:58

result in a flourishing marriage. They told

7:00

me that sexual obedience would secure a

7:02

specific blessing. When the reward

7:04

didn't come, I was left to wonder what

7:06

I had done wrong and whether others who had grown

7:08

up reading the same books and hearing

7:11

the same messages were wrestling with

7:13

similar questions." So

7:17

that sort of gets a little bit into

7:20

the background of why you chose to write

7:22

the book. What was the process

7:25

that brought you through

7:27

some of these difficult, personal and

7:29

spiritual realizations to

7:31

the point where you not only

7:34

wrote about it at a master's level, but then decided

7:36

to publish a book in response?

7:38

Right. Well, it was multiple things

7:42

coming together because as an

7:45

English teacher to high school students at a

7:47

Christian school, I felt like I had a

7:49

lot of interactions where students

7:51

were - they had questions about things

7:53

like sexuality and dating and purity.

7:57

They had things they

7:59

were struggling with and guilt. And

8:01

so it was on my radar that these

8:04

issues were still just very relevant

8:06

to the youth of today, just like they were to

8:08

me when I was a teenager. And

8:10

then I had multiple female

8:13

Christian friends who had been sexually abused

8:15

and just in our friendship

8:17

and kind of, you know, unofficial

8:19

counseling , my

8:22

heart was heavy for them and I wanted

8:24

to see what the books

8:26

of my youth said to those who've been sexually

8:28

abused, like those messages about

8:31

purity. How did they come

8:33

across to people who'd had their virginity

8:36

taken from them, for instance? And so that's

8:38

kind of how it started was with research for

8:41

my dissertation. And then after

8:44

that I had a decision: I

8:46

was either going to keep pursuing the subject

8:48

and maybe apply for a PhD with

8:51

my same advisor at St. Andrew's , or

8:53

just start to write the book right then, and I

8:57

really wanted to keep going and keep up

8:59

that momentum. And I wanted to write

9:01

something that was academic, but that was

9:03

also really accessible to anyone

9:05

who'd grown up with these messages. So

9:09

this book is really an academic response,

9:11

but also a very personal response based

9:13

on the interviews and stories

9:15

I've heard and based on my own life,

9:18

because as you said, I also had to realize

9:20

that these purity culture promises hadn't

9:23

come to fruition in my own life.

9:27

Yeah. I definitely got that from

9:29

being able to read through your book.

9:31

And in addition to reading

9:34

about how it affected your life,

9:36

growing up in this evangelical community

9:38

and being exposed to a lot of

9:40

the purity culture literature,

9:43

it reminded me a lot of my time

9:45

growing up in evangelical Christianity.

9:48

And in some

9:50

ways I had a bit of a

9:53

positive reaction of, "Oh, I'm that

9:55

never actually happened to me," or,

9:58

"I never actually heard that problematic

10:00

teaching." And I was kind of happy that I had managed

10:03

to avoid it, but then there were definitely

10:05

a lot of other things I said, "Oh yeah, I

10:07

heard that all the time." You know, I

10:09

remember being in high school

10:12

at our Christian school and having

10:15

one time during the year when all the

10:17

girls would be brought into a room together

10:19

and the guys would get to go do something fun. We would

10:21

all have this talk about what we were going to wear

10:24

to make sure that we weren't going to tempt

10:26

all the boys in the school. And

10:29

to a certain extent - I mean, I definitely

10:31

support, you know, having dress

10:33

codes and things like that, and I think

10:36

that even I was fortunate that even those

10:38

conversations didn't go to

10:40

the kind of extreme level that you're talking about

10:43

in your book. But I

10:46

definitely was seeing things that

10:48

I recognized in your experience either

10:50

from something I had experienced growing

10:52

up, or even more than that things

10:54

I've heard from so many friends

10:56

over the years who also grew up in

10:59

the purity culture. And just

11:02

so that we make sure that everyone who's listening

11:04

is clear about what we're talking

11:06

about in your book, you do contrast

11:09

the purity culture movement, which

11:11

developed a specific point in time - You

11:14

talk about kind of the mid to late 90s

11:16

into the early 2000s, about the time

11:18

we were in middle school and high school - You

11:21

contrast that with biblical sexual ethics,

11:23

which had been the same throughout history.

11:26

So what do you think

11:29

helped to fuel the creation of this

11:32

purity culture movement and

11:34

how was it different from

11:36

what had come before it and what the Church

11:38

had usually been teaching about sexual ethics?

11:41

That's a really good question. I

11:44

think what fueled the modern purity

11:46

movement, which I focus on in my book,

11:49

was a reaction to

11:51

just this influx of and

11:54

fear of STDs and teen

11:55

pregnancy coming out of the seventies

11:58

and eighties. And so it was very

12:00

fear-based and reactionary. It

12:05

began being taught, not just in

12:07

churches, but also in

12:09

public schools through abstinence education.

12:11

And so this was a

12:14

Christian - well, the

12:16

message came usually from Christian

12:18

environments, but it eventually bled

12:20

into the schools. And once it became

12:23

government funded, Jesus had to be taken out

12:25

of it. So you ended up with this

12:27

Christian subculture called

12:30

purity culture that had some things

12:32

in common with biblical sexual

12:34

ethics and had other messages

12:36

that were entirely unbiblical . And

12:39

I think untangling those two things

12:42

is what I'm trying to do in my book and

12:44

what I wasn't able to do as well. When

12:46

I was a teenager, I just took it

12:48

all in without

12:50

discerning the difference, because

12:52

it was Christians who were telling

12:55

me those things.

13:00

Yeah, and you mentioned a lot of different

13:02

books in your own book that

13:04

you spend time interacting

13:07

with and critiquing and

13:09

really getting to the part

13:11

of what their messages were. And I

13:13

definitely remember everyone reading

13:15

- It seemed like everyone was reading,

13:17

at least, Wild at Heart and Captivating,

13:20

and everyone had those books For Women

13:24

Only and For Men Only.

13:25

And they'd be [in] not

13:27

just all the Christian bookstores, but they were at Barnes

13:30

and Noble. They were being given to all kinds of

13:32

people. And then that was

13:34

around the same time - particularly I

13:36

think under the George W. Bush administration,

13:39

there was a real emphasis on government working

13:43

with faith-based initiatives.

13:45

But of course, when you're taking government

13:47

money, like you said, you can't be

13:51

pushing religion on people. So

13:53

you have to kind of take some

13:55

of the specific Christian-ness out

13:57

of it and you kind of get left with this moralism.

14:00

And so definitely that was jogging

14:03

my memory as well. And

14:06

yeah, you spend a lot of time focusing on

14:08

those primary books that were associated

14:10

with the purity culture movement that were released

14:13

in the late 90s and early 2000s, and one

14:16

thing you say about them is that, "Books

14:19

that were meant to be tasted began

14:21

filling the shelves at Christian bookstores

14:24

and parents bought them for their teenagers

14:26

who swallowed them whole. There was an

14:28

assumption that anything about

14:30

purity written by a Christian would

14:32

be not only safe, but helpful."

14:35

And that really resonated with

14:37

me because - I'm sure we've all

14:40

been to places - You'll go to Hobby Lobby

14:42

and you'll see they have books there at the checkout,

14:44

or you go to Walmart and they'll have a Christian

14:46

section, or even at

14:48

Barnes and Noble the "Christian" section,

14:50

and some of the stuff there is good,

14:52

but also I think most of us would

14:54

look at it and say, there are some things there that kind

14:57

of make us scratch our head. Like, does that really belong in the Christian section

15:01

or what is this? But there

15:05

is that same feeling, especially

15:07

when we're so overloaded

15:10

with things in our lives and so busy and wanting to do

15:13

something to help our kids that

15:15

we're just like, "Oh, well, this looks like a

15:17

good Christian book on the cover, so it must

15:19

be good." And wanting

15:21

out of a good desire to do something, just handing

15:24

that off to somebody. And what it

15:26

makes me wonder , something that we could

15:28

apply to our own lives today is what

15:30

does this tendency we have - What does

15:33

it say about our general purchasing habits

15:35

and how we're raising our children?

15:38

And did you have any thoughts about that

15:40

in relation to the research that you did?

15:45

Well, I think it's interesting.

15:47

I did a conference just a couple of

15:49

years ago, talking about aspects from

15:52

my book before my book was completed.

15:54

But after the seminar

15:56

, a father raised his hand and said,

15:58

"Well, what books can we give our

16:00

children, our teenagers?" And I think

16:02

that's always the question that I'm asked. I get

16:04

messages about it a lot where they'll

16:07

say, "Ok, well, I see that you're tackling

16:10

destructive messages in these core

16:12

period of books. So which book can I give my kid?" The

16:15

desire behind that is - I think

16:18

a lot of humility - is a parent saying, I'm

16:20

not an expert on this. Let's

16:24

give my kid a book written by someone who has

16:26

researched it. And I really respect that and understand.

16:29

I think there's even some desperation there for

16:31

parents of teenagers, where they're just grasping

16:34

for anything to guide their

16:37

teen in this formative and

16:39

difficult time where they're going through puberty

16:41

and they have all these questions. So

16:43

when I was growing up, a lot of parents - my parents

16:46

talked to me about sexuality and there was an openness

16:49

there and they were, they gave me very

16:51

solid teaching, but

16:53

at the time all of us teenagers

16:55

were reading these books, and I don't

16:57

think that our parents really understood

17:00

everything that was in them. And

17:02

like you said, I mentioned that because

17:05

they were written by Christians, there was an assumption

17:07

that they were safe, but

17:09

as a high school English teacher, I

17:12

would contrast the way that

17:14

we study literature in school, where

17:16

we just - you know, students, it drives

17:18

them crazy, but you analyze the heck out

17:20

of a book, right? You pick out the worldviews

17:23

and the themes and the

17:25

symbolism and you write multiple essays

17:27

on it. And we didn't

17:30

do that with these books. Instead, we

17:32

read them in isolation. So

17:34

even though my friends were also reading I Kissed Dating Goodbye, I

17:37

don't remember us ever talking about those books

17:40

together in a way that was analytical

17:43

or parsing through it. We

17:45

were all just reading them together, but separately.

17:49

And what happened was, I think

17:51

we internalized some of the wrong

17:53

teaching right along with the biblical

17:55

teaching, and it's

17:57

caused some damage. I mean, you and I've seen it.

17:59

We watch people on Twitter talking

18:01

about where they're at now, and some

18:04

people have become so frustrated realizing

18:08

that these teachings weren't true, that

18:10

they're actually walking away, not

18:12

just from the unbiblical teachings, but they're walking away

18:14

from the Church altogether. So

18:17

it's a real problem. I mean, we are seeing

18:19

the ripple effect of

18:22

this, of these books.

18:25

And when you mention the

18:27

unbiblical teachings

18:30

there , I'm trying

18:32

to think back at some of the ones that you mentioned

18:34

, were - one that I

18:37

alluded to where females

18:39

are seen to have a kind of responsibility

18:41

for male sexual

18:43

behavior. And that definitely

18:46

plays into what you're talking about with sexual

18:48

abuse victims, because how do

18:51

you interpret that? If a woman is sexually

18:53

abused, was that somehow her fault as

18:55

well? I don't

18:59

mean to put you on the spot, but what were maybe

19:02

a couple other - just in case people aren't aware

19:04

, with these books - what a couple other

19:07

of the issues, problematic

19:09

issues with them would be beyond

19:11

what we've already talked about?

19:14

Right. Well , one of

19:16

the issues is just that in

19:18

order to motivate teenagers, to

19:20

pursue sexual abstinence - instead of

19:23

saying, "It's for the glory of God. Obedience is

19:26

an act of worship for Christians, however

19:29

imperfectly we perform it."

19:32

You think about abstinence education

19:34

in public schools. If you can't talk about

19:36

the worthiness of Christ, then you

19:38

have to think of a different way to motivate these

19:41

teenagers to not have sex, and so

19:43

the carrot that was dangled

19:45

in front of these kids and in front of me even

19:48

to an extent, was not obedience

19:51

for God's glory, but this promise

19:54

that if I stayed pure,

19:57

I would get married. And the assumption was

19:59

always that you'd get married within

20:01

a reasonable timeframe. I don't know if that was stated

20:04

in any of the books, but it just is what all of us

20:06

assumed. You get married. You'd

20:08

have mind blowing sex from night one,

20:11

and you would have children with ease. That's

20:13

a direct quote from one of the books that if

20:15

you avoid premarital sex, you'll

20:17

actually "have children with ease," meaning you won't struggle

20:19

with infertility. So there

20:22

were these kind of core promises

20:25

that not only are not from scripture

20:28

, but they

20:31

also neglected realities like

20:34

same-sex attraction . What did that say to

20:36

teens who were struggling with same sex attraction?

20:40

What about those who still

20:42

aren't married and they're in their 30s and 40s?

20:45

What about those been sexually abused?

20:48

What about those who are divorced, like me?

20:50

What about those who struggle with infertility?

20:54

You end up with this sort of prosperity

20:56

gospel and purity teaching that

20:58

you have a fallout from, and

21:00

all these people are now grappling with broken promises

21:04

and God never made those promises, but

21:07

they came from Christian books. And

21:09

so a lot of people are associating

21:11

those promises with the Church and with Christianity.

21:16

Yeah. Thank you for providing

21:19

that explanation there, because

21:21

I think that'll be helpful to a lot of people

21:24

not only to understand what

21:27

you and I are talking about, but also to

21:29

think back and realize, "Oh yeah, maybe I

21:31

was hearing some of that stuff as

21:33

well." And definitely where you're talking

21:35

about - as far as the promises

21:38

that were made by those books, like

21:40

you said, they don't really gel with scripture,

21:42

but in addition have not played

21:44

out in the experience of myself

21:47

or people I know. It's almost

21:49

as if they're saying you'll never suffer in

21:51

your life and we all know that that's

21:53

not true. So one

21:56

thing I especially appreciate

21:58

about your book was all the interviews

22:01

you conducted with average Christians,

22:03

who'd been exposed to these purity culture

22:05

teachings, and you discussed

22:07

how it had affected their lives. And many

22:09

of those conversations were really

22:11

deeply personal that you have with people. And

22:13

I totally understand why some of them didn't

22:15

want their names included in the book, but what

22:18

were some of the primary things you took

22:20

away from those discussions for yourself

22:22

and how did it affect your own thinking about

22:25

these issues?

22:27

You know, there was a real emotional

22:29

toll that those interviews took on me.

22:31

For those who are into the Enneagram,

22:34

I'm an Enneagram 2, and I'm also an

22:37

extreme empath. I

22:40

really take people's stories

22:43

into my heart and it's a little bit hard for me

22:45

to recover. And so I remember

22:47

the months that I spent where - I do

22:50

multiple interviews a day - whether I

22:52

was meeting with people in person for coffee

22:54

or over Zoom or the phone , people

22:56

were - you were right.

22:58

They shared with me things. I mean, they really

23:00

were honest with me. One of

23:03

the things that was particularly

23:05

difficult was just how many Christians

23:07

have been sexually abused. I

23:10

don't want to say I was surprised, but it hurt

23:12

me to just to hear these

23:14

stories, and not only had

23:17

so many of them experienced abuse, but

23:20

they'd experienced it in the Church and by

23:22

other Christians. And so just

23:24

further complicating this

23:26

narrative that if you do good sexually,

23:29

you'll be sexually rewarded, and also adding

23:34

to this false guilt that

23:36

if you are sexually abused, somehow

23:38

it's your fault because you could have or should have prevented

23:40

it. I think that

23:43

there was so much more of that than I realized

23:45

there would be. And so

23:47

it was a heavy time, but I was

23:49

incredibly touched by how

23:52

open people were with me, and it

23:54

proved to me that this topic is

23:56

one that is incredibly relevant right now: that

23:59

our generation is grappling with

24:01

these teachings and

24:03

trying to sort

24:05

out the good and the bad. And so that's

24:08

really what came through is that I talked

24:10

to Christians from all different theological backgrounds.

24:12

Some had left the Church, some were extremely

24:15

conservative, some were more liberal. So

24:17

I talked to really an array

24:19

of Christians and there was

24:23

a common theme that purity

24:26

culture didn't get it all right. And

24:28

so that just proved

24:31

to me that there was a need for this book.

24:35

Yeah, and while I certainly

24:37

haven't done anything like the wonderful

24:39

research that you've done on this topic,

24:42

I've had a few conversations over the years

24:45

with people where they

24:48

share kind of how these teachings have

24:50

affected them, and many people

24:53

who - and increasingly people are feeling

24:55

empowered to talk about this, that they

24:57

have sexual abuse in their backgrounds

25:00

and often happening with people

25:02

they know from the Church or from their family.

25:04

And so it definitely...as

25:07

you were quoting from

25:09

those discussions, you had, I

25:12

just imagined knowing how I had been

25:14

affected by having discussions like that,

25:16

that certainly that would have been hard

25:18

for you and also not just

25:21

for you, but how difficult it is

25:23

for all of those people to be able

25:25

to share that. And I was just so

25:27

glad that they were willing to do that and felt

25:30

like they were in a safe place where they were able

25:32

to do that. So you have

25:35

a great line in your book

25:37

where you say that,

25:39

"Virginity does not provide her purity.

25:42

Jesus does." I was

25:44

wondering, could you explain that a little

25:46

bit for our listeners?

25:49

Sure. I think that was such

25:51

an important message I wanted

25:53

to communicate in my book because to

25:55

just dismantle something is

25:58

not enough. We have to know what, what

26:00

do we do instead? What do we teach or believe

26:02

instead? And so I wanted

26:04

to dismantle these dangerous

26:07

teachings and purity culture, but then I also

26:09

wanted to return to what is actually true.

26:12

And so I have a whole chapter on

26:14

the way that purity culture idolized

26:16

virginity, especially female virginity.

26:19

And one of the things you'll notice in

26:22

purity culture books is that

26:25

there's this idea that virginity

26:27

and sexual purity actually determines one's

26:30

worth as a person. And again, specifically

26:32

for women. And so there's these metaphors

26:35

that many of us are familiar

26:37

with, like the crumpled rose or

26:39

the chewed up gum or the used car.

26:42

And these metaphors were

26:45

meant to communicate what happened

26:47

to you when you sinned sexually. But

26:50

what these metaphors did was not just

26:54

alert teenagers to some of the dangers

26:56

spiritual and otherwise of premarital

26:58

sex, but it also communicated

27:01

that they would lose personal worth

27:03

if they had sexual experiences.

27:05

And so I wanted to

27:07

return to the theological principle

27:10

that our purity, our

27:13

salvation has its source

27:15

in Christ, and that is unchangeable.

27:18

So whether you are sexually

27:20

abused or you make sexual mistakes and

27:22

you sin, your worth as a person

27:25

and an image bearer of God does

27:27

not change. And not only

27:30

that, I would argue that we

27:32

all have sexual histories, whether it's something you've

27:36

done physically, or it's just a lust

27:39

in your mind, but we are all sexual

27:41

sinners and sexual sin does not

27:43

mean that you can't have a healthy future

27:45

relationship with a

27:47

spouse or with others in the Church

27:50

or with God. And so we really

27:52

have to return to what is the source of our

27:54

salvation and the source of our

27:56

righteousness. It's not our own actions,

27:59

it's Christ's righteousness. And so our

28:01

purity really can't

28:03

change no matter what has been done to us or what

28:05

we do. And of course what we do matters

28:07

and what happens to us matters to God,

28:10

but it doesn't change our worth.

28:14

Yeah. It's really a very impoverished

28:17

view of purity to

28:21

not only just to bring it down

28:23

to sexual purity, as opposed to purity

28:25

it all other things in life, but then

28:28

to bring it down to just,

28:30

"Have you had this one particular

28:33

physical action that you participated

28:35

in or not ,?" as opposed

28:38

to a more holistic view of,

28:40

"What is your thought life? Have

28:43

you been looking at pornography?" And as

28:45

far as actual

28:47

sexual intercourse itself , making no

28:51

differentiation between things you

28:53

consented to and things you didn't consent

28:55

to. And like you said,

28:57

that kind of image of the crumpled

28:59

up rose, which if anyone's ever

29:01

seen the TV show Jane the Virgin that was

29:04

out a few years ago - I think you mentioned it in your book

29:05

- and the very first episode, and

29:08

then they come back to it again and

29:09

again - they show

29:12

Jane as a little girl and her grandma - she crushes

29:14

the flower and she says, "You can never

29:16

go back!" Certainly

29:23

it is correct that sexual

29:25

sin is a big deal, and it's something

29:28

that God speaks a lot against,

29:30

but you know, the

29:32

idea that either a

29:36

mistake you made when you were a teenager

29:38

or even something that was horrificly

29:41

done to you when you were young, that

29:43

you can never possibly recover

29:46

from that and be pure for the rest of your life certainly

29:49

doesn't take into account what it really means

29:51

to be pure and the power that

29:53

God has to sanctify us.

29:56

So I really a

29:59

ppreciated that you talked about that. Another

30:01

important point you make in the book that

30:04

we've alluded to - it has to do with who's

30:06

ultimately responsible for maintaining

30:08

sexual purity. And

30:11

another thing you write in the book is that, "One

30:13

of the main problems with modesty r

30:15

hetoric is that it draws on the biblically unsupportable

30:18

idea that women are responsible

30:21

for the purity of men. If

30:23

a man l usts after a woman, it is because

30:25

she failed to protect him." And

30:28

I know that you and I would both agree

30:31

that there are things women can do that are

30:33

not at all helpful to men in

30:35

helping them to maintain sexual purity.

30:37

But I think you're

30:40

right to point out that this

30:42

is another line of thinking that's been taken

30:44

to an unhelpful extreme. And what

30:46

kind of negative consequences

30:49

has this mistaken thinking had

30:51

i n the Church and really in society

30:54

as a whole, because I see this

30:56

line of thinking happening far beyond

30:58

the Church and just in society in

31:00

general?

31:01

Well, I draw a connection

31:03

and this is where some people could get offended,

31:05

but I hope they'll hear me out. There really

31:09

is a connection between rape culture and

31:12

purity rhetoric, and it starts

31:14

with this idea, which is unbiblical

31:16

, that women are morally superior

31:18

to men and therefore morally responsible

31:21

for what both genders do sexually. We

31:24

don't see that in scripture. You go back to the Sermon on the

31:26

Mount and Jesus talks about - if a man

31:28

lusts after a woman in his heart, he's committed

31:30

adultery. We are each

31:32

held responsible for our individual

31:34

sins. Now that's not to

31:36

say that a woman couldn't be sinning by

31:39

trying to selfishly cause

31:41

someone to stumble: that's her sin. But

31:43

if a man responds by sexually abusing

31:45

her, that is his sin . And so

31:48

I think it comes down to culpability.

31:51

Culpability gets very confused

31:53

when you teach that women are in charge of

31:56

the sexual actions of men. This

31:58

is where you get rape culture, the idea

32:00

that , "What was she wearing

32:02

when it happened? Why did she go

32:04

to that party? Why did she walk down

32:06

that street? She should've known better."

32:08

That's rape culture rhetoric, and you see

32:10

that bleed into purity

32:12

culture with this

32:14

idea that women can somehow

32:17

prevent sexual assault: that

32:19

it's within our power to

32:21

make sure it doesn't happen. That was basically stated

32:23

in multiple books, that if you act

32:26

in a certain way, men will respect you and

32:28

never abuse you. To an extent it

32:30

might be true. There are certain

32:32

things that we can wear or ways that

32:34

we can dress that determine how people view us,

32:37

but this idea that you could actually prevent

32:39

sexual abuse from happening just by being

32:41

an upstanding citizen: we

32:43

know that's not true. The statistics

32:46

prove otherwise. And so

32:49

I think that you

32:51

see not only women

32:53

blamed for the sexual abuse that happens to

32:55

them, but you even see Christian women

32:58

blamed for their husbands' sexual

33:00

sin, because there's this idea

33:02

- and I actually just wrote an article

33:04

about this for Fathom, it'll be coming out next

33:06

month - but there's this idea

33:08

that if women, when

33:11

they're unmarried - they need to make sure that they don't sexually

33:13

tempt men. And then once they're married,

33:16

they need to be giving their husbands so much sex

33:18

that he'll never stray, which

33:21

is a strange way to look at it because

33:24

it makes it sound like men don't

33:27

have a moral responsibility: that they're

33:29

constantly on the verge of sexual sin.

33:31

And it's only women's sexual fulfillment

33:34

in marriage that keeps them from

33:37

exploding into adultery. So

33:41

t here, you just get a lot of really harmful

33:43

teachings that come out of this idea that women

33:45

are responsible for both men and

33:47

women.

33:50

Yeah. And even some of these teachings seem

33:52

rather contradictory because you

33:55

talked about the idea that women are morally

33:57

superior and need

34:00

to be having

34:02

a positive influence on men to prevent them

34:04

from sinning . But also historically,

34:07

there's been the idea out there that women are basically

34:09

seductresses and that

34:12

women are morally

34:14

inferior and that's why you shouldn't

34:16

be spending time around them. So a

34:19

lot of this rhetoric, I mean, it's

34:21

very fear-based , but it also

34:23

doesn't seem to be very well - logically

34:26

thought out.

34:27

Yeah. Sarah Moslener wrote a book

34:29

called Virgin Nation. And if anyone

34:32

who's listening is interested in this particular

34:34

topic, she kind of traces

34:36

the history of purity culture from

34:39

the Victorian era on and

34:41

shows how teachings about women

34:43

changed based on what was trying

34:45

to be accomplished. And so you'd see time

34:47

periods where women were treated as morally

34:50

weak, and then it would switch

34:52

to men . Women are morally superior

34:54

and therefore responsible. And it's a very

34:57

interesting book to read, but in

35:00

modern purity culture, you get

35:02

this idea that came from gender essentialism,

35:06

which is the idea that we're kind of controlled

35:08

by our base instincts. And men's instincts

35:11

are always barbarian type instincts,

35:13

and women's are , again, morally superior,

35:17

and these ideas do not come from scripture. They

35:19

were secular thought, but they

35:21

influenced modern purity culture

35:23

rhetoric, which does set up women as the

35:25

guardians of purity.

35:28

Yeah. I think scripture is pretty clear that

35:31

we all have a sinful nature. So

35:33

apart from the work of God, we're

35:35

all going to be drawn to

35:37

sinful actions,

35:40

but at the same time, we're all

35:42

redeemable and we all actually are

35:44

morally culpable for the things we do.

35:47

We can't just say, "The devil made

35:49

me do it," or, "The woman you gave me

35:51

made do it," or anything of that nature.

35:54

So you

35:57

place a special focus in the book

35:59

on Christians who have been

36:01

sexually abused, are single

36:04

or same-sex attracted, or struggle

36:06

with infertility, and those are all things

36:08

you've mentioned a little bit here. I

36:11

was wondering what are some

36:13

ways that the Church can

36:15

be more supportive and inclusive

36:17

of these individuals? And I

36:19

would even add to that list

36:22

, apart from just couples

36:24

who are infertile, couples who

36:26

have suffered miscarriages or

36:29

couples who just haven't had children

36:31

yet, or basically

36:33

anyone who doesn't fit into

36:35

that model of you get

36:38

married in your early twenties, you

36:40

have kids by your mid twenties: all the

36:43

steps that people want you to follow and the boxes

36:45

they want you to check off. I think

36:47

that to a certain extent,

36:49

anyone who doesn't fit that model can

36:52

start to feel a little left out in the Church. So

36:54

what are some ways that the Church can be supportive

36:57

and inclusive of all kinds of people

36:59

in the Church?

37:01

That's a great question. I really

37:03

wanted to address some of these neglected

37:05

realities that we face. Another one, I talk about

37:08

all the ones you've listed and then also even just

37:10

painful sex in marriage - where you

37:13

can't have sex for whatever reason. That's

37:16

something that purity culture never addressed:

37:18

a reality that so many of the people

37:20

I interviewed actually have dealt with either

37:22

for short seasons or for long ones,

37:24

depending on illness, depression, those kinds

37:26

of things. I think

37:29

one way that we can make sure we're being

37:31

more inclusive is to stop

37:33

worshiping the nuclear family. I mean,

37:36

there's absolutely nothing wrong

37:38

with rejoicing in a

37:40

couple getting married , having children - those

37:43

are beautiful, good gifts from God

37:45

and I regularly rejoice even on

37:48

my Twitter feed in the marriage God has given

37:50

me , because I have

37:52

seen divorce

37:54

and despair. And I

37:57

believe that whatever circumstance we're

37:59

in, whether it's singleness, marriage - whatever

38:01

circumstance that we find

38:03

the ways that God is blessing

38:06

us and we rejoice in those things. So

38:09

it's not about downplaying the beauty

38:11

of marriage and children,

38:13

but the Church tends to

38:18

treat people as though that's the norm. And

38:20

while it might be the majority, what

38:23

it does is it makes anyone who's not in that

38:25

bubble feel pushed to

38:27

the margins. And so I think things

38:30

as simple as not constantly doing sermon

38:32

series on just two things - marriage

38:34

and parenting - but also talking

38:36

about other issues like loneliness

38:38

- how

38:42

to pursue Christ in other ways. But

38:44

if every woman's event

38:46

is about how to be a good wife or a good mom,

38:48

you're leaving out so many women and so many

38:51

men who

38:53

have different lives and they are honoring

38:55

the Lord. They're living lives

38:57

like Paul or like Jesus, where they

38:59

are fully dedicated in their singleness or

39:01

in their celibacy , or

39:04

they're married, but they're childless and they're using

39:06

their gifts and their time for his kingdom.

39:09

So I think it's about making sure that we're

39:11

not just always focusing on the nuclear family

39:14

as though all Christians fit into that mold.

39:17

And then it's also about appreciating those

39:19

who don't fall into that typical mold and

39:21

recognizing that they have their own

39:23

unique giftings to

39:25

offer the church family. I mean, ask

39:28

a single to lead a Bible study. You don't have to be

39:30

married to be spiritually mature. You

39:32

don't have to have children to have

39:34

compassion or wisdom. And

39:37

so I think it's even about giving people ministry

39:40

opportunities that don't fall into

39:43

the nuclear family.

39:45

Yeah, and I'm sure some people

39:48

will hear what you said and

39:51

despite all the qualifications you've given

39:53

to it, will just focus on, "Oh, she

39:55

says that we shouldn't be caring about families!"

39:57

Honestly, I think

40:00

if you look back throughout history,

40:03

there was a time when the church really

40:05

idolized celibacy and that

40:09

was the ideal that got raised up. And then

40:11

after the Reformation, there was maybe

40:14

a correction of

40:16

saying no, it's

40:18

good to be just - you don't

40:21

have to be a monk in a monastery.

40:23

You can be married, you can have children, and

40:25

these are all good and noble things. But

40:28

the Church, as with so many issues,

40:30

always has a tendency to gravitate

40:33

to one extreme or the other, right? So either

40:35

we're saying, "Being married

40:38

and having kids is the

40:39

ideal everyone should strive to," or,

40:41

"Just being single and giving all your time

40:44

to service is the ideal."

40:47

And I think that what

40:49

I'm hearing from you is that

40:51

we need to be not going

40:54

to one extreme or the other, but

40:57

be embracing people at all - as Paul

40:59

talks about, you know, in 1 Corinthians 7, where

41:02

he talks about: it's good to not be

41:04

married, but if you're in this

41:06

situation or that situation, yeah, be married.

41:09

I think that sometimes we miss

41:11

the possibility that there could be more

41:13

than one way for someone to be

41:15

godly. And also, I think

41:18

our cultural moment we're in right now

41:20

where we're really seeing the

41:22

breakdown of the family in a lot of ways

41:24

- I think

41:26

that tends to cause a bit of an overreaction.

41:34

You're pointing out too that it's

41:36

very much cultural, more than biblical

41:38

, the way the

41:40

pendulum swings. And so there

41:44

was a time when I think celibacy was probably

41:46

a lot easier for Christians because

41:48

there was more of a community: there was more

41:50

respect for it. Whereas now I've heard

41:52

some of my same-sex friends who aren't

41:57

in marriages say

41:59

that celibacy - people

42:01

look at them strange and encourage

42:04

them to marry someone

42:07

of the opposite gender, even if they are not in that

42:09

place where they feel like that's the right thing to do.

42:11

Basically the Church seems uncomfortable

42:14

with prolonged singleness and celibacy

42:17

and as you point out, that's

42:19

an overcorrection because if

42:21

you look at scripture, Jesus

42:23

was single. Paul was single

42:25

and some of my spiritual heroes, Amy Carmichael , Rich Mullins, and Henry Nouwen.

42:27

And they

42:33

honored the Lord of their lives and they didn't have spouses

42:36

or children. And so I am in no

42:38

way downplaying how beautiful

42:40

a family unit is or how good,

42:43

and pursue it have as many babies as you can

42:45

if you want to do that, but it's

42:47

what you said. We shouldn't worship either

42:50

stage or any particular circumstance

42:52

because the body of Christ

42:55

is meant to be diverse. We

42:57

flourish when we celebrate

42:59

our differences and learn

43:01

from one another. Sameness is

43:03

not what we should seek in the church. So

43:06

I think just to go back to your question about

43:08

how do we include those who've been pushed

43:10

to the margins, another way is

43:13

to stop segregating our Bible studies

43:15

and small groups. I think when we

43:17

only talk about sexual purity to

43:19

a group of teenagers or a group

43:21

of women in Bible study, and

43:24

we're always having these conversations in

43:26

segregation, all married or just

43:28

singles or just those

43:31

who struggle with pornography or whatever the

43:33

group is - it's not wrong

43:35

to have those groups, but I

43:37

think we would benefit from more diverse conversations

43:41

about sexuality. I talk

43:43

about in the book this kind of dream I have that

43:46

a small group would study my book and

43:49

go through the questions together. And it would include

43:51

a widow, someone who's divorced, a

43:53

married couple, singles, same-sex attracted

43:56

-people from all walks of life who

43:58

could talk about these things

44:00

together and realize that we have more in common

44:03

than we think, that unmet longings

44:05

come in all shapes and sizes, and

44:07

we can share those things together

44:09

and pray for one another. So

44:11

I think it's also about trying to make sure we're

44:13

not always segregating people into

44:15

their relationship

44:18

status or place in life, but

44:21

seeking diversity.

44:24

Well, I think on that note, it's a really

44:26

good place to wrap it up.

44:28

I think we've been able to hopefully cover

44:31

lot of what you talk about in the book, but there is a

44:33

lot more for people, so I

44:35

would very much recommend that you

44:38

pick up a copy of

44:40

Rachel's book Talking Back to Purity Culture,

44:43

which hopefully by the time this podcast

44:45

airs will be coming out very shortly

44:48

after that on November 10th. Rachel,

44:51

it's been a pleasure to talk to you and

44:55

thank you once again.

44:56

Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

44:58

(MUSIC PLAYING)

45:26

I really enjoyed my discussion with Rachel about

45:28

ways we can improve the Church's approach to issues

45:30

of sexuality. Her book, Talking

45:32

Back to Purity Culture is published by InterVarsity

45:35

Press and will be released on November 10.

45:37

As I previously mentioned, the music you've

45:39

been hearing is the song "Citizens" by John

45:42

Guerra off his album Keeper of Days. Thank

45:44

you for joining us for this episode. Allow me to

45:46

send you off with the benediction that

45:48

comes at the end of Paul's second letter to the

45:50

Corinthians. "The grace of

45:52

the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God,

45:55

and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you

45:57

all." Amen. Have a great week.

46:01

Is there a way to love always? Living in

46:04

enemy hallways? Don't

46:06

know my foes from my friends and don't

46:09

know my friends anymore. Power

46:12

has several prizes. Handcuffs

46:15

can come in all sizes.

46:17

Love has a million disguises,

46:19

but winning

46:21

is simply not one.