0:00

small talk now let's get

0:02

down to business now, your

0:04

program, what's the big

0:06

say

0:12

that mind wax? i

0:13

i over here and immediately,

0:15

i had to open the game

0:17

where

0:24

there's a lot of ireland in here, but i did

0:26

20 years after

0:28

an irishman we

0:31

had the president says some

0:33

heightened awareness of how hi my tribe

0:36

had hottest in london know block the wires

0:38

no dogs

0:47

our family's very irish gentlemen

0:50

we have we have special announcement

0:52

to make this a good you welcome fees

0:54

so wonderful

0:59

french film maker sophie

1:01

to scant the plant hey was killed

1:03

at her holiday home near to have more

1:06

and west cork in december nineteen ninety

1:08

six

1:09

garda investigation is to

1:11

carry out a full cold case review

1:14

of the west cork in over a

1:16

quarter of a century later

1:18

i am delighted to welcome mic

1:20

clifford's the irishman abroad punk ass

1:22

to talk about the case and is only because

1:25

the special correspondent for the irish examiner

1:28

author a winner the irish journalist the reward

1:30

for my money the best investigative

1:33

journalist country has ever produced make

1:35

thank you so much for comment on the show exodus

1:38

very generous introduction journalist they

1:41

, do the introductions imbecilic

1:44

so funny because i feel like it does make people

1:46

uncomfortable and beta site

1:49

of a them for at like is wanted

1:51

have the on the show for so long and i'm so glad

1:53

we're gonna get an opportunity to talk about the

1:56

your own journey from civil

1:58

engineering as he right to me off the

2:01

air of the cars in you see see

2:03

also rans to find yourself

2:06

a little base and discovering

2:08

kind of your interest and rising in australia

2:10

a result forward to that part of our discussion

2:13

and sex now since the show he

2:15

would you start with let's talk about sophie

2:18

to kinda plant yeah the remember

2:21

nineteen ninety six and how different

2:23

the place was at the time when this

2:25

news came through christmas

2:28

i do and i'm a bit

2:30

like you who is our what was it was

2:32

his and which brisk meeting was

2:34

bought my walk on role in

2:36

the second world war i had of had tiny

2:39

walk on rules

2:41

this from the very start in that i

2:43

was is so better sir

2:45

it's not i wasn't too long as

2:47

my first job in discard newspaper

2:50

at the time i made this distinct

2:52

memory

2:54

sobbing the copy from

2:56

this freelance journalist who

2:58

was operating under the name on your

3:00

way the moon daily

3:02

in west cork and i did the stink

3:04

recollection one day

3:06

being in the office in the star and

3:08

the news editor

3:10

was in an adjoining guess suddenly looking

3:12

off and say

3:14

holy shit the seller who was filing

3:17

the one of our guys to by

3:19

the cops i was a

3:21

dot dot dot was that was quite

3:24

something against subsequent to that i

3:26

that very which got involved got involved story

3:28

but as you sit nineteen eighty six started

3:30

ireland was

3:32

very

3:33

the different place i suppose we

3:35

were well perhaps five or six years

3:37

intent teaching at

3:40

least among the most developed nations who the world

3:42

is going to put it that way with that was the beginnings

3:44

of am still be open society

3:47

and beginning zoos economic boom

3:49

to some extent in the nineties what

3:51

the word areas that were still ah

3:53

perhaps movement would

3:55

would would would have probably been

3:58

how do you put it sucked of it it would

4:00

fit it into the image of plus perhaps

4:03

the old ireland is particularly

4:05

to people abroad and to some extent

4:07

west cork would have been a bit like that know

4:11

when you pick like it because there was a cosmopolitan

4:13

element to it because westport for very long time

4:15

has always been a refuge from people

4:18

for example from the key from holland

4:21

i'm from germany place like that's it

4:23

was seen as a place to comb it had that

4:25

vibe a certain rules for

4:27

the are you from different parts of the was due to attract

4:30

people who lamb perhaps

4:32

see to see them says that sitting that sitting

4:34

temperance society a in big cities or whatever

4:37

someone had that element but there was also a rural

4:39

elements but wouldn't think it's that

4:41

it was very much in keeping with the general

4:43

image rural ireland was there was

4:45

had not been i think perhaps

4:48

come back to the days of the word independence

4:50

in the nineteen twenties a scenario

4:53

where by somebody had been murdered

4:55

in a very violent manner by

4:58

and individual was nice more

5:00

or less immediately identifiable and

5:02

it doesn't respect it was a massive shock

5:05

yeah i mean that is something that comes across

5:07

when you consume any of

5:09

the content around

5:11

this whether it's west cork the

5:13

podcast which podcast which we can all agree

5:15

was an absolutely extraordinary

5:18

until of broadcasting nevermind

5:20

podcasting just impeccably

5:23

put together and how they captured how

5:26

inept the police were but just how

5:28

on used they were to

5:31

a situation like this were

5:34

you conscious of that at the time

5:36

in the census the country

5:39

was that taken aback

5:41

that such a thing what happened

5:43

in the corner of the country in such a

5:45

remote areas you say somewhere that this

5:48

is kinda hermitage for people who our

5:51

artist the creators from their

5:53

nationalities and the

5:56

report the guards down

5:58

there won't know what to do

5:59

there

6:01

not really and i said

6:03

you point to this extent because as i say

6:06

it was that like

6:09

crimes walk in there and immediate sometimes as you

6:11

as you would not a medium i get word area

6:13

something than the general public

6:16

and dash word came through to the news

6:18

from we can do it was no fish the house i

6:20

would guess in the thirty lit december

6:22

proxy early january did did mister prentice

6:25

bodies hundred twenty third of december

6:28

i see today it was eleven

6:30

to january in barely had been arrested

6:33

he came out the following day highly

6:36

unusual for somebody was arrested even for very

6:38

high profile case like this and

6:40

he did to fight him sense as the personal

6:42

been arrested and did he suspects and

6:44

the nature the people in general

6:48

is that if it's somebody everybody

6:50

thinks did as then that person

6:52

do this and it'll it'll

6:55

at that point there's this

6:57

was just a question at the roster

7:00

of just being able to

7:03

am how do you put it it's it's

7:05

to make the case did this with

7:07

the t suspect and it was just a question in making

7:09

the case against this month though

7:11

that was looking from the outside it

7:13

was only much later when

7:16

you're stuck to com yos that we began

7:19

to realize hold on this

7:21

was not necessarily the case at all

7:24

that dead the investigation and

7:26

the conduct of some of the gardy around

7:28

singing barely was highly

7:30

questionable and by extension

7:33

the notion that he was the t suspect

7:35

for this was also highly question

7:38

do you think that all the his

7:40

behavior i'm in

7:41

these are called everything from an eccentric

7:44

to at the game and don't

7:47

see told him an oddball the

7:49

a character is cause some

7:51

irish people would call a but

7:54

an individual like this but

7:56

either way he doesn't response

7:58

normally

7:59

to such an accusation up i mean

8:02

i think that i wanted to put you is

8:05

it possible that his response

8:07

is abnormal response to

8:10

the accusation and being pointed

8:12

out as a potential suspects perhaps

8:15

hinders the investigation because

8:17

the police were led to believe that no

8:20

the innocent person would behave this way

8:23

yeah i think it's definitely something to that

8:25

i mean as you know did they

8:27

did a to might say the average innocent

8:30

person who's wrongly accused for

8:32

to behave in a way

8:34

the

8:35

would be very different how mr bailey behave

8:37

still you have to take into account is characters

8:39

including a number time since it does the left and dundas

8:42

you meant to podcasts and various documentaries

8:45

there's a dick i described much as a man who's

8:47

not afraid to let his ego plus and

8:50

i'm the only somebody who enjoys

8:52

the spotlight notwithstanding

8:55

that's why place is loaded with accusation

8:58

is adamant i should say absolutely

9:00

adamant he had nothing whatsoever to

9:02

do it the smart post at

9:04

the same time he doesn't behave in a manner

9:06

of somebody who has been wronged

9:09

to the extent of keeping to head down and

9:12

ah wishing the whole thing would go away

9:14

and latin to think so that definitely

9:17

add to his but in terms of the investigation

9:20

apart from his personality what

9:22

did he says as he can arise and i've covered

9:25

a number guard investigations and this wasn't

9:27

the first or last time it is arise

9:29

when

9:30

the guard d already police force

9:33

get defies a suspect earlier

9:36

and focuses only investigation

9:39

that's so spec then other

9:41

leads quietly ourselves

9:44

or disappeared there for go

9:46

cold so why you did

9:48

to find him early on fit

9:50

to lead the investigation shut down

9:52

the possibility there could

9:55

be somebody else in the frame forest

9:57

land as we know that is eminently

10:00

possibility that the product was eminently possible

10:02

but that was definitely a problem industrial

10:05

space

10:06

it's so funny that people have now become

10:08

so aware of this because of the

10:11

am that popularity

10:13

of these true crime series such

10:15

as making as murderer that this conformational

10:17

bias that you're talking about something

10:20

that we all understand that we have in our own

10:22

lives and in that way

10:26

a police the guardian the time nearly

10:28

can't be blamed because it's it's

10:31

such an natural thing to

10:33

do and i guess under that pressure

10:36

they were making calls with

10:39

the use of the media upon them at

10:41

is t looking to find an

10:43

looking to solve this as quick

10:46

as possible now we know that it it

10:48

doesn't play either way doesn't gets aren't as

10:50

good as possible here we are a quarter of a century

10:52

later what does change

10:55

mack the result in this cold

10:57

case

10:58

the korea i should add was nobody

11:00

thinks his kids would people to call

11:03

kiss inquiry into have been results from called kiss

11:05

inquiries twenty twenty five years later

11:07

and or have actually been convicted spot jurisdictions

11:10

and others as a result to call kiss inquiries

11:13

the big difference here dollars this

11:15

is not a case to investigate twenty five

11:17

years ago and was list

11:20

the gather dust and the south so to speak

11:22

it has been examined in many

11:24

ways the airport by police

11:27

forces in this country to guarantee and

11:30

french police it has

11:32

been passed and examined in various

11:34

civil courts as well including

11:37

a libel action the high

11:39

court action by mr bailey which is one

11:41

of the longest i got actions in the

11:43

history of stays and it has

11:46

been exam by the garda ombudsman in

11:48

terms of the garda investigation into

11:50

itself into spend a lot of that puts us

11:52

void cause kiss with you know and

11:54

i was there was couple of factors one

11:57

is d am

11:59

who do commend trees that were out

12:02

last year's that definitely wheaton

12:04

priests

12:05

good once more to try

12:08

and determine who may well be

12:10

responsible for this horrendous crime

12:12

there was also and this is pretty gruesome

12:14

they attend this a trial

12:16

in that sense here in paris

12:19

and two thousand and i didn't know that

12:21

was highly unusual came about the highly

12:23

unusual manner in that the french

12:25

underwriting so know pilot napoleonic

12:27

law they have the right to investigate

12:30

the murder of french citizens abroad

12:32

and they did that in this instance with the cooperation

12:34

of the guardian the authorities here they visited

12:36

the country french detectors or habits

12:39

a compiled a case that resulted in

12:41

the trial in paris in two

12:43

thousand and i didn't know having attended

12:45

i target i have to say and with absolutely no

12:47

disrespect to the french or their system what

12:50

struck me as process

12:53

got wise well it

12:55

was one did i would certainly find alarming

12:58

to compare twenty court a criminal

13:00

courts this tour sticks to me it appeared

13:02

more like a confirmatory

13:04

hearing of guilt as much that is take

13:06

into account course mister bailey did not cooperate

13:09

with one or the on there was it in french

13:11

film maker if i was the as he was in

13:13

france yeah i s know how how are you

13:15

your i was your friends like where you keep analysis

13:18

the shocking i it okay to say about

13:20

a sensible twelve months as i did my leaving for

13:22

door for do what has been sonics explode

13:25

at personally i was very lucky in

13:27

that i would go rent a translator

13:29

i had how kelly my my wife's

13:32

brother nice fred's he lives here in dublin

13:34

and he has to be in fright so i got to pay

13:36

for to blame for the week had

13:38

he was very handy it and somebody of

13:40

yes sir alistair used to the sweats was

13:43

dead dead dead the case with

13:45

a is it was very surprising that suspect

13:48

it lasted for these included

13:50

suffering since like when detective at

13:52

give evidence of passes evidence was a

13:55

with over to less car i spoke to

13:57

would be irish detect to stare he believes

13:59

bailey did you know why

14:01

haven't really seen that in in a nice court would

14:04

be accepted than i

14:06

do with a long does like to censor to

14:08

with this is came from west cork only two

14:10

and for exactly that is there were witnesses

14:13

need to this would since died the

14:15

distinct deceased and they

14:17

only gave add those who they want

14:19

to com something like four weeks notice

14:22

and they told they have to come over

14:25

a sort out their own travel arrangements comedy

14:27

stories with and they might get reimbursed fast

14:29

or so that was the kind of approach

14:33

to the try one where the other it was a four

14:35

day trial three judges deliberate

14:37

for number of hours to came back said barely

14:40

with bill gates and a sentence of twenty

14:42

five years and prince those are resulted

14:44

ass the french authorities for disorder

14:46

time attempt to the bailey extradited

14:48

from this country the difference

14:50

being anticipation they now had to say sought

14:53

a murder conviction there's

14:55

high court i think they were perfectly right to be understood

14:57

the circumstances rejected that

15:00

and again for the tartaglia rejected

15:02

by our discourse following best

15:05

obvious to plant the a sudden who am i should

15:07

say don't have one aspect to the trailer

15:09

bars mr plant his son as

15:11

on pierre give a testimony

15:13

dare and victim impact statement that was

15:15

really extremely moving

15:17

from a man who was an adult

15:20

who spoke a boasts as a sixteen

15:22

year old an only child of mr anteater

15:24

was really did to with him because he for marriage

15:26

was great at it was so

15:28

moving has he had to go to

15:30

what he has endured fire up

15:33

to twenty three years as it was

15:35

since was in any event the

15:37

extradition was not successful heroes

15:41

the irish government asking them or

15:43

to the guardian gives me asking them to please

15:45

we investigate this again mr context

15:47

the dice disappear the also ross

15:50

need with the number of occasions in

15:52

to guarantee the exam big as far

15:54

as he's concerned in order to clear his name

15:57

do you have all those factors coming together

15:59

to carry

15:59

look at this and then and assistant

16:02

commissioner who is pretty renowned

16:04

for investigations in recent years was retiring

16:07

the earlier

16:09

the city in the last month and one of

16:11

the things he did just before he retired wise

16:13

to announced that there would be this cold case

16:15

with you afford

16:16

the examination and investigation of

16:19

the whole kissing

16:20

wow in the

16:22

actual as you say the actual decision to

16:24

set up the review looking

16:27

into it was six months of examining

16:29

the file and seeing

16:31

whether the investigation could

16:33

potentially be progressed is the words

16:36

they use that was done under detective

16:38

superintendent desmond tiernan there

16:40

are aspects to that that i'd

16:43

like to go through it, a of

16:45

bits and pieces and one

16:47

of those that emerged from the documentary

16:50

switch, our course, still available on netflix

16:52

and sky was

16:55

this woman maria farrell

16:57

that you woman who spotters a figure

16:59

on this notorious kill father bridge

17:02

her statement has changed she's a i

17:04

have

17:05

the new statements

17:07

saying that she now recognizes

17:09

that individuals to be an associate

17:11

pastor the see

17:14

sophie to cook two hundred ninety eight her

17:16

husband's friend now i

17:19

don't know make what your attitude is

17:21

to this because maybe you can catch

17:23

people up on exactly how contrasting

17:25

the evidence that maria thera has given in the past

17:28

has been

17:29

yeah and it should be said like come back

17:31

to the initial investigation we said is to guarantee

17:33

day and honed in on in bailey

17:35

onto their evidence together

17:37

which the dpp has repeatedly said did not

17:39

me to treasure for prosecution the

17:42

huge amount of as was based

17:45

solely because the city's the central tenets

17:47

of the whole thing was maria far as

17:49

evidence i'm very far was lock

17:51

a shopkeeper he was under

17:53

nice to be supplanted died she was out

17:56

with am i think it is emergencies

17:58

to the bitter says with another man she's having they

18:00

are and who was driving at this place

18:02

called keep that a bridge which is about a mile and a half

18:04

mr back to his home and something

18:06

similar distance from the bally's

18:08

on fuck what what is living at the time and

18:10

she contacted initially anonymously

18:13

the guarantee and said she saw somebody there

18:15

the truth cause

18:18

and different or and see described

18:20

an individual initially an

18:22

individual of five for this now

18:25

in billie sick for two or three the

18:27

changed our rap description

18:29

dismembered long black coat he said is

18:32

it he jotted

18:33

the could be

18:35

stab list

18:36

beyond any kind of a reasonable

18:38

the

18:39

the hard identification

18:41

while very accurate

18:44

and very credible that would

18:46

be a huge piece of evidence that anybody

18:48

under the circumstances leading question would have been

18:50

at that location however he

18:52

retained as she maintained a breakthrough to

18:55

destroy the tried to west cork in two thousand

18:57

the to to give evidence that that's which is devastating

19:00

and about like decided those a civic is about

19:02

the character the murder trial there's

19:05

also diversity evidence that which

19:07

was about mister bally's the

19:09

metric violence against his partner to type which

19:11

was pretty horrendous evidence the answer to

19:13

from individuals who witnessed that are witnessed the

19:16

aftermath of it's any to attach where he finds

19:18

evidence is considered to be really

19:20

devastating t barely to effectively

19:22

put him at this location then

19:25

within a year eighteen months

19:28

she approaches in billie solicitor she announces

19:30

that the evidence to give a false

19:33

that in fact she be

19:35

put under pressure suit claims regarding of

19:37

all this tonight is that she was under

19:39

duress from to guarantee to give that evidence and

19:41

as she did not see in barely there at

19:44

all no remember see the fact received their to cheat

19:46

committed perjury she gave

19:48

evidence then at the high court's

19:50

civil action in bailey to quit reverse

19:53

the evidence you given a delighted side note is no

19:55

longer he barely saw their and

19:58

as you see in the most recent document these

20:00

are evidence is now did individuals

20:02

saw was an associate of daniel

20:05

daniel and the scandal clinton i

20:08

would have to say that i can't

20:10

imagine any scenario in

20:12

wicker evidence at this stage could

20:14

be considered credits for instance in in

20:16

in in the high court action she dashed

20:19

about at night and shoes as to take the fight individuals

20:21

whose it's she got up voted witness box and

20:23

walked straight out of the court you

20:26

know she's using digital content course eventually

20:28

came back but the thing

20:30

keith around hard evidence i

20:33

did suggest would be highly problematic

20:35

for example two thousand and i didn't despite

20:38

the td story to court to paris

20:40

decided it was going to take our original

20:42

evidence and as

20:44

the proper evident so it's been all

20:46

over the shop and notwithstanding

20:49

this new citing and her behalf i

20:51

would sides difficult to think that and it's prosecutorial

20:54

authority whoop whoop would take his son

20:56

usually fierce the i maybe wrong and that was that's

20:58

just having observed that over the years enough for

21:00

let's talk about this a case

21:03

really briefly here and

21:05

make you know the case i'm bringing

21:07

up this , of

21:09

evidence thus that that

21:11

podcasts and the documentaries

21:13

talk documentaries at the gaze

21:16

at the scene of the crime

21:18

that was declared a was

21:21

now i've read a couple of things

21:23

to say that that is not in fact

21:25

the case and thus it was

21:27

disposed of by the national

21:30

forensic laboratory after being

21:32

held onto for quite some time

21:35

and decided that it was have

21:37

no significant evidence

21:39

i've heard both and i'm not one hundred percent

21:41

sure child of which is is the correct

21:44

the

21:45

version of as i mean it it it seems

21:48

it would be very unusual

21:50

that would it is still open them politically ice

21:53

high profile case such as this that

21:55

it would have been disposed of without

21:58

realizing that could be of use the future

22:00

i need this for skip the liked my mind was

22:02

turned into ji suk investigation

22:05

into his was how you

22:07

lose the guess i just don't know and

22:09

why you would dispose of something techland

22:12

residential value is another issue

22:15

i do know

22:16

then again just a note of cases

22:18

i've looked at

22:19

the was missing and guard custody and

22:22

contrary to what most people think

22:25

usually more to do woodcock opt in any conspiracy

22:28

that doesn't rule out no conspiracy had some instances

22:31

for to be no reason into words why

22:34

de gar d would want

22:37

to get this is a key is quite the opposite

22:39

actually i these tiny piece of evidence whatever

22:42

that will be there did obviously be i'm looking

22:44

to repay that so it's a bit of a mystery

22:46

but it's certainly would does that reflect well on

22:49

to guarantee that it's would take for a

22:51

small bag of some evidence advise

22:53

you to go missing but for i guess a

22:55

bloodstained case exactly

22:57

yeah to and okay he was yeah i

22:59

was i was began elements to the

23:01

whole thing

23:02

dna evidence advancements

23:05

is something that's ireland has a

23:07

direct connection to an understanding

23:09

of the significance of that from

23:11

the the number of

23:14

a irish people

23:16

abroad the birmingham six specifically

23:19

who who , these

23:21

this piece of evidence could

23:23

have significance later down the road when

23:26

they figure out a way to strip

23:28

it of it's contents now

23:31

i've read now i've of things that said that

23:33

this awful instrument

23:35

that was used to take a lie

23:37

for to scott of of sophie a

23:40

block a cinder block as

23:43

could be the key to what

23:45

they're talking about in this at cold case

23:47

that there is new dna methods

23:50

and techniques that could

23:52

be applied to this block what

23:55

, you heard about that and

23:57

what can you tell us

23:58

quite possible and

23:59

his latest is to elements one is

24:02

forensic and particularly easy advances

24:04

in forensic over the last twenty six

24:06

or jeers and the second to use somebody's

24:09

coming forward with some do evidence but

24:11

i've heard is that are placing more

24:14

than the possibilities some meet somebody coming forward

24:17

they are far then you

24:19

have to wonder whether that

24:21

would standing they have resisted alexa that but

24:23

whether any dna can

24:25

be extracted from us the

24:28

stage or whatever could be valuable

24:30

in that respect there have been cases

24:32

i can take a one in particular i'm a murder

24:35

case this your stitch were in

24:37

the type of causes review the dna

24:39

was the crucial piece of evidence

24:43

i'm not sure

24:44

the

24:46

in terms of their knowledge of that would necessarily

24:48

be the case here at all

24:50

i think the emphasis is on

24:53

the notion that somebody out there might

24:55

know something might have thought previously

24:57

das

24:59

the everyday new was nice

25:01

of significance or somebody

25:03

who might have forgotten

25:06

something and remembers it are have a real

25:08

i revised opinion of it are

25:11

somebody who may have been them in

25:13

fear of oh kami forward before

25:16

i made do so know my understanding

25:18

is that their place more emphasis on death than

25:21

any prospect of a break to under frames

25:23

excites boss i certainly would not

25:25

rule it out of , i ask

25:27

him final couple of questions around

25:30

the in the remaining

25:32

questions the things that have been carried

25:34

in various different places as the

25:36

own answered questions that remain from

25:38

the podcast and the documentaries around this

25:40

case case would just ask about

25:43

your ghost in your instincts are you

25:45

allowed talk about your good feeling do

25:47

you feel it's worthwhile because i've

25:49

no doubt you must have certain

25:51

instincts and sensors around

25:53

this case

25:54

i do

25:56

john and i don't have a definitive wanna put it that

25:58

way to it's puts they're aspect to it is

26:00

a mean you mentioned in terms of we

26:02

got ceiling at as

26:05

an individual citizen individual bar stool or whatever

26:07

i could have could have feeling and shares with a friend of a

26:09

never as a journalist i

26:11

think you know you'd be obliged to declare six sent

26:13

to rely on facts and evidence

26:16

and but i think it is there to see that

26:18

there are two camps effectively and

26:21

to recent documentaries came down on

26:23

either side of those camps that death

26:25

the shirt and to submit to the gym doc as

26:28

as barely cause of with it is

26:30

here to see was going to be sympathetic the in belize

26:32

place and is indication it as

26:34

with that to do plenty of family withdrew

26:36

their cooperation with the documentary

26:39

because i think distant it was too sympathetic

26:41

to the next six documentary by contests

26:44

seems to i , it's fair

26:46

to settle greater suspicion on the in

26:48

barely and an indication that exists

26:51

in barely told me him since he tried to have

26:54

elements he was in this withdrawn but

26:56

they refused to do so listen to table he

26:58

quite obviously was not happy with that for

27:01

those are the two camps and

27:03

is your dress me which

27:05

can put a come down in favor of i'd i'd

27:07

have to reply that would depend on what did week

27:09

it was because i mean i don't have

27:11

a descendant of opinion in that respect on this

27:14

silly is so you're eat your

27:16

sense of this changes week to week

27:20

yeah

27:22

was us would way of putting his am the

27:25

accent does

27:27

are you see in

27:29

there is no definitive evidence

27:33

the and bally's in the frame for this i

27:36

think there's no question about that there is no definitive

27:38

evidence to that extent story certainly

27:40

not the evidence so far that

27:43

, be enough to

27:46

place them on trial the connection

27:48

to the i think there's no question about tests

27:50

the underside of the coin is there

27:53

is nothing of any major

27:55

credibility that puts anybody

27:57

else and different

28:00

though

28:01

it's very difficult to in indoor circumstances

28:04

to calm down and until you

28:06

die because instinct that air b or c

28:08

was responsible are somebody whom

28:10

you could identify as being an associates

28:13

or their nationality or whatever at the saw

28:15

from that point of view it to me it is

28:17

it remains them the premier

28:19

joker effectively and

28:22

one of their theory

28:25

is this a foreigner

28:28

someone arriving around christmas

28:31

time months and

28:33

like nelson assassin or assassin hitman

28:35

eight those terms with someone

28:37

who was sent

28:39

the do this act

28:40

what have you heard around

28:43

dash and how how

28:45

plausible is das in

28:47

, sense of such a small community

28:50

here i mean you have to choose been

28:52

a boat has been france inciting of them

28:55

the man

28:56

the company sophie to plenty of

28:58

from cock airport don't

29:00

in that car and and then

29:03

there's descriptions of them were quit when she arrived

29:05

a few days they are you there ,

29:07

mean like for example and

29:11

my been referred to somebody describe somebody

29:13

as wearing a berry

29:14

there in west coast or christmas now

29:17

that's the first part of my conversation

29:20

with make clifford to come on over to patriot

29:22

dot com forward slash irishman abroad

29:25

to hear the rest of that unbelievable

29:28

extra , to this case

29:30

the a suggestion that someone

29:32

else an outsider outsider into

29:35

the country at the time will also

29:37

look pass the cold case

29:39

timeline like what is the timeline for

29:41

how this cold case investigation will

29:43

proceed and will move on

29:46

to mix own life his racing

29:48

at his books a force for justice

29:50

for one i'm reading wanted to talk about the maurice

29:52

mccabe story a of course

29:55

bertie ahern the tribunals and

29:57

the future of journalism it's all

29:59

over there i'm patriot on dot com forward

30:02

slash irishman abroad where you can get access

30:04

to our full archive hundreds

30:06

and hundreds of episodes with the greatest

30:09

irish people ever to i've lived for a

30:11

fiver a month on patriot com

30:13

forward smash the irishman or