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Hello and welcome to the Animal Training Academy

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Making Ripples podcast show, the show where we

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share the stories of the ripple-making extraordinaires

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with behavior nerd superpowers who make up the

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Animal Training Academy membership. I'm your host and one of the happiness

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engineers at Animal Training Academy, Shelley Wood from

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Drop Your Jaws Dog Training in Cape Girardeau,

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Missouri in the United States. We're absolutely thrilled and grateful to have you

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And we're a sociable bunch with an exclusive

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It's like a Netflix social media platform for

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animal behavior geeks. Today we are excited to welcome Emma Cook

1:23

to the show. Emma Cook is a qualified dog trainer and

1:27

fear-free certified dog groomer in Adelaide, South

1:30

Australia, where she operates the Funky Foxhound, a

1:34

dog grooming business specializing in services for dogs

1:38

who struggle with grooming-related behavioral issues.

1:42

Her grooming and training techniques utilize a holistic

1:44

approach, including positive reinforcement training, cooperative care,

1:48

confidence-building exercises, and collaboration with other pet

1:52

professionals to ensure the best outcome for each

1:55

individual dog. Her emphasis is on the autonomy of her

2:00

canine clients, encouraging them to make their own

2:03

choices and to have control over their own

2:05

grooming sessions, therefore building a relationship based on

2:09

safety and trust between dog and owner.

2:13

Emma is a volunteer aspiring instructor at Canine

2:17

Behavioral School, is a member of Pet Professional

2:20

Guild, Australia, has her Certificate IV in Animal

2:25

Training and Behavior through Applied Vocational Training, and

2:29

has completed a Canine Enrichment Technician qualification through

2:33

Diagnostics. Emma considers herself a quote, baby trainer, but

2:38

is a passionate learner who is dedicated to

2:41

grabbing every educational opportunity with both hands to

2:44

ensure she can provide the most up-to

2:47

-date scientifically sound services to her clients.

2:51

She lives by the quote, when you know

2:53

better, you do better. Emma shares her home with her wonderful and

2:57

thankfully very tolerant partner, as well as their

3:00

three brilliant dogs, Kaya, Arrow, and Vander, and

3:06

a beautiful family of rescued parrots and pigeons.

3:10

Emma, welcome, thank you for joining us today.

3:12

Thank you so much for having me, Shelly. I am so excited to be here.

3:16

This is going to be awesome. I think it's going to be awesome too.

3:20

Unless, and I hope I am not, but unless I am forgetting somebody, I think you

3:24

are the first person that we have had

3:26

on the show who has had such a focus on grooming in their professional work.

3:32

I know we have had some folks who have done some grooming before, but I don't

3:35

know about to the extent that you have. And so, I just, I'm so interested and

3:39

excited about the work that you're doing and the ripples that you're spreading through that work.

3:43

And so, I'm really looking forward to learn

3:46

more about you and from you here today.

3:49

So, tell us about you. Why don't you start us out by telling

3:52

us a little bit about your story and how you started working with the animals and

3:55

some of the work that you're doing with them today?

3:58

I sort of, to really understand where I've

4:01

come from and how I've ended up doing

4:03

things as I do, I feel like it's

4:05

really necessary to start at the very beginning. A bit cliche, but it makes the story

4:10

a little bit long. However, to understand where my passion comes from,

4:15

I think it's really important. So, I'm going to discuss a couple of

4:18

things that might be a little bit upsetting

4:21

to listen to for some. So, I just want to let people know

4:24

that before I go into it. So, I grew up in the country.

4:29

We had a lot of different pets. We had dogs and cats and birds and

4:32

sheep and chickens and geese at one point

4:35

that loved to chase us around the backyard.

4:38

And my mum, beautiful woman, absolutely adored my

4:42

mum with all of my heart. But she was a very hardworking woman.

4:45

She was away most of the time.

4:48

And she was just trying so hard to

4:51

provide for us. And unfortunately, my father figure, who was at

4:55

home the majority of the time, was quite

4:58

a cruel man. And he made life very difficult for everybody.

5:05

So, I grew up surrounded by all these

5:09

wonderful, wonderful animals who essentially became my support

5:13

system. And they became my comfort and my friends

5:19

because it was an extremely lonely existence.

5:23

And I felt a mutual connection with them

5:27

in that we were sharing the same experience.

5:31

So, not only was my father figure not

5:35

very nice to us kids, but he treated

5:39

the animals really poorly. Which was, it was really disturbing to see.

5:47

But it really evolved the way that I

5:50

looked at them. So, we were on the same page.

5:55

I don't necessarily believe the animals realised that.

5:58

But for me, I looked at them and

6:01

I saw and understood what I was going

6:04

through. And I looked at us together as sort

6:10

of supporting one another. So, I loved my cats and my dogs.

6:15

And when I needed to get away, I

6:17

would be out there and we would play.

6:20

And I would do little bits of training and stuff with them.

6:23

And just found so much comfort in their being there.

6:27

But yeah, I think the main thing was

6:29

the fact that they were the only, well not people, but the only others in the

6:33

world that knew what was going on.

6:36

And they sort of had the same experience.

6:40

And so, I grew up feeling very protective

6:43

of them. And feeling very connected.

6:47

And wishing beyond anything else that I could

6:51

get them out of that situation. It didn't bother me so much about myself.

6:57

But it really was upsetting to know that

6:59

I couldn't make their lives better. So, I learnt a lot about what not

7:05

to do. I grew up in this environment where I

7:08

was just going, this is horrendous. I can't believe people would treat animals like

7:12

this. All I ever wanted to do was not

7:16

be like that. So, as a result of some of those

7:20

experiences, I did develop complex PTSD.

7:24

And I really struggled with anxiety as a

7:26

teenager. Major anxiety. Couldn't leave the house for much other than

7:31

school. I was terrified of the world.

7:34

Not just social anxiety, but everything scared me.

7:37

Things that just didn't make sense to other

7:40

people. And I think that really shaped me for

7:45

what I do now. Because for a lot of people, they look

7:49

at a dog that's scared of grooming and

7:51

they go, well, every other dog copes with

7:54

grooming, so why can't you? And so, I can see it from, okay,

8:00

the clippers might not be scary to other

8:02

dogs. But for whatever reason, something in your life

8:05

has happened or something in your brain suggests

8:08

that this is scary and that's a completely

8:11

valid feeling. So, I mean, I'm grateful in that.

8:16

I've learnt so much. It would have been nicer ways of learning

8:19

it. But it was amazing to make that connection.

8:24

So, I got my first dog when I was 17.

8:26

My parents had split up and I was living with my mum.

8:30

And so, she was the first dog that I raised by myself and that's Kaya.

8:35

And I really wanted to do the right thing by her, but I had no idea

8:38

what I was doing. So, I did try to use a lot

8:41

of treats and that kind of thing and

8:45

tried to connect with her and wanted her

8:47

to, you know, have fun and all of

8:50

that kind of thing. But I still used a lot of punishment

8:53

because I didn't know what I was doing. I had no clue. And I just, oh, this dog, she's just

8:58

the best. She has been through me, with me through

9:01

all of this transition and the trust that

9:04

we've built over the years has just been

9:07

awesome. But she was kind of the first attempt

9:11

and, you know, it wasn't perfect, but God

9:15

love her. So, then I sort of started looking for

9:18

a job with animals when I was 18.

9:22

And I remember sitting in our careers class

9:25

in school and looking through the careers book

9:28

that tells you every career that ever existed

9:31

and what you could do and going, well,

9:33

I want to do something with animals. And there was just like, I had this

9:37

thing in my mind. I loved animal behaviour.

9:40

I loved training animals. I loved thinking about what was going on

9:43

in their heads. So, I kind of was like, I want

9:47

to be an animal behaviouralist, which I did

9:50

not know wasn't a thing at the time. So, I'm looking through this book and I

9:55

can't, it's like, I'll be a vet, be a vet nurse.

9:58

That was about all, or be a farmer.

10:00

There was no grooming, there was no training

10:02

in this book. And being in a small country town, it's

10:05

not like there was a bunch of businesses I could go and ask.

10:08

So, I really had no idea. And then I sort of found out about

10:12

an animal behaviour course that I could do at uni and I was like, oh, that

10:15

sounds amazing. So, I wanted to do that, but I

10:19

was still so anxious and very much stuck

10:21

in my house at this point. So, I managed to land a job washing

10:26

dogs in a grooming salon, which I'd never

10:28

imagined doing. I grew up with staffies and short coated

10:31

big dogs, not little fluffies.

10:35

I just kind of was like, oh, okay,

10:37

I'll give this a try. I didn't really expect to like it, but

10:41

I fell in love with it. And it was amazing to experience this totally

10:47

different world. However, even though I didn't know much at

10:51

the time, I was still shocked at how the animals were being handled.

10:55

And I kind of was like, okay, this

10:57

is cool. This is an interesting career, but I don't

11:01

like how it's being done. So, I moved to Adelaide to do my

11:05

study at uni. I only lasted a year at uni, dropped

11:09

out because I was later diagnosed with ADHD

11:12

and realised why I don't do good at uni. So, I worked at a couple different salons

11:18

in Adelaide, did some washing and then started doing a traineeship type situation and started grooming.

11:24

And time and time again, the same thing, I worked in about four different salons, loved

11:29

the work, hated the way the dogs were

11:32

handled. The dogs were always in such a high

11:34

state of stress, lots of dogs running around the salon together that weren't necessarily enjoying it.

11:40

And so, I stuck around at a few

11:42

different salons for a while and then I went, I want to do something different.

11:46

And that's when I opened my own business. I did not ever expect to be a

11:50

business owner. That was not something I imagined would be

11:53

in my experience, but here we are.

11:57

That kind of happened because I knew I

11:59

wasn't gonna be able to do it any other way. I had to go out on my own.

12:03

So, when I first opened, I was like, okay, I want to do quote unquote reward

12:07

-based grooming. So, using lots of rewards.

12:11

And so, I ended up being invited to

12:14

like a dog event one day where I

12:16

met Petra Edwards, who is a fantastic animal

12:20

behaviorist dog trainer in Adelaide.

12:23

And she actually came up to me and

12:25

she said, oh, have you ever heard of fear-free grooming? Have you looked into that?

12:29

And I was like, what? No idea.

12:32

So, I looked into that. Thank you, Petra.

12:35

You're an absolute legend. And I actually completed the fear-free course.

12:40

I was the first Australian groomer to complete it.

12:42

And so, that started as my basis of

12:46

fear-free grooming. I started practicing that, but I just felt

12:50

so alone. There was just nobody else doing it.

12:55

And everywhere I went, every time I spoke to other groomers about it, it was just

12:58

kind of like, I felt a little bit

13:01

woo. It was controversial and I was wrong.

13:07

It's never gonna work. So, I felt really disheartened.

13:11

I was working so much during seven days

13:13

a week just trying to help all of

13:18

these dogs, but didn't really have the skills that I needed.

13:20

The fear-free course was great, but it was not as comprehensive as I needed.

13:26

And I just got really burnt out. And so, I got to the point, I

13:29

didn't want to groom anymore. I was over it. I didn't have the skills to make it

13:35

better. And I didn't know where to find them.

13:39

So, I joined Sleuth Hounds, which is a

13:41

nosework group in Adelaide. I joined this for Arrow, my very nervous

13:45

boy. And that was the best thing I've ever

13:49

done, I think. So, I met this amazing woman named Aga,

13:53

who has become a very, very good friend of mine now. And out of the blue, we weren't friends

13:57

on Facebook or anything, but she messages me one day.

14:00

I posted a video of me doing an injection on Arrow, just using food to distract

14:05

him. And she messages me and points to her

14:08

for bravery. She just kind of goes, hey, I don't

14:11

want to be rude or anything, and I hope this doesn't come across badly, but have

14:15

you heard of cooperative care? And I was like, oh, you know, I've

14:18

kind of seen it online, don't really know much about it.

14:21

And so, she encouraged me to seek out

14:24

more information about that. So, that was amazing.

14:27

And that was really what planted the seed in my head.

14:30

I don't know if I'm getting these two

14:32

events around the wrong way, but they are very close together.

14:35

I then went to a seminar run by

14:39

Sleuth Hounds with Peter Clark, and she changed

14:44

my life in so many ways. She was so personable and so humble and

14:50

delightful to listen to and so inspiring.

14:54

And she started talking a lot about choice

14:57

and control and the way that it affects

15:01

a dog's mental health and their confidence.

15:04

And she gave a few pointers that just,

15:07

I just sat there like, how have I

15:09

never thought of this? It seems so obvious, but I'd never thought

15:13

of it. And so, I met all of these dog

15:16

trainers at the seminar and, oh my God,

15:20

I was just like, well, okay, I know

15:22

what I want to do. Everything just fell back into place.

15:25

I was suddenly motivated again. I immediately signed up to do my dog

15:29

training qualification. I just started seeking information everywhere.

15:34

Peter Clark changed my whole world, and she

15:37

knows that I think she's incredible. I'm going to say it again, incredible woman.

15:42

So, yeah, I started sort of seeking all that stuff out.

15:45

Anka then turned around and encouraged me to join Canine Behavioural School.

15:48

So, I started learning from there.

15:51

I started attending some other conferences. I went and saw Mike Shikashio and Moira

15:56

Hetchenleitner, a couple of other sort of Barbara

16:00

Hodel. I went and saw her, a couple of other different things to start picking up all

16:04

this info. And then I finished off my Cert IV,

16:08

and now I work in a salon that

16:12

is pretty much based entirely about helping these

16:16

animals with behavioural issues. So, I'm still on my path to that

16:21

because I have a lot of clients who I took on before that was my focus,

16:25

and I'm not going to, like, force them

16:27

to go elsewhere. But every new client that I take on

16:32

now has a strong behaviour focus.

16:35

I'm either taking on puppies who have parents

16:37

who are willing to work through cooperative services,

16:40

or they are wanting to work with behavioural

16:45

issues. Some puppies who come to me at 12, 14, 16 weeks are already showing signs of

16:50

behavioural issues. And so, we start their whole grooming journey

16:54

from a cooperative point of view.

16:58

And it's just, yeah, it's really amazing.

17:01

It fills my cup so much. I'm watching these dogs' lives transform, and their

17:04

attitude towards grooming is just incredible.

17:08

It's just an awesome, awesome thing. So, very, very happy with where I'm heading,

17:11

but still a long way to go to

17:13

where I want to be. Oh my gosh, so much there.

17:18

Was so much wonderful stuff there.

17:21

But also, thank you very much.

17:24

Before we start talking about all of the wonderful stuff, I just want to express gratitude

17:28

and say thank you very much for being vulnerable and open and sharing a little bit

17:32

about your personal backstory and how those unfortunate

17:36

circumstances helped facilitate the creation of some empathy

17:41

and other things in you that are still

17:46

shaping you today to make the world a better place.

17:49

So, thank you for sharing about that and

17:51

being open about it with us. Then, let's talk about some of your grooming

17:58

and some of the work that you're doing

18:01

with your business a little bit more. I think this is so exciting that you're

18:06

working almost exclusively with people who want to

18:10

do cooperative care with their dogs, correct?

18:13

Yeah, there's a combination of people who want

18:15

to do cooperative care and also people who are seeking a stress-free grooming experience.

18:19

So, it might not necessarily be every dog

18:22

is cooperative care, but it's minimal restraint.

18:25

It's giving them as much choice and autonomy

18:27

and power in the salon as possible.

18:31

So, for clients who can't commit to cooperative

18:34

care for financial reasons, for timing and emotional

18:37

availability or distance, I've got some people who

18:42

travel an hour and a half to see me. So, obviously, coming once a week is difficult

18:45

for them. So, for dogs that can't necessarily have that

18:49

cooperative, like 100% cooperative care experience, I

18:53

will work towards allowing them to hop on

18:57

and off the table themselves when they would like and never ever dragging a dog into

19:02

the salon or anything like that. It's something that seems so obvious, but when

19:06

I started implementing, actually, ensuring the dogs come

19:09

in on their own choice, it just changed

19:11

the attitude of a lot of the coming in, using lots of reinforcement, using play, using

19:15

enrichment in the salon, all of that kind

19:18

of thing to make their experiences more enjoyable.

19:23

So, for people, I'm guessing that most of

19:25

the listeners to the show have an idea

19:27

of these terms, cooperative care and fear-free,

19:30

but for people who maybe don't, there may

19:32

be some folks who don't, can you kind of break that down a little bit and

19:35

give us maybe a little bit of a

19:38

definition or an example of something that would

19:41

be cooperative care versus something that would be

19:43

a little bit more fear-free or just reducing fear and stress?

19:47

So, cooperative care is the understanding between the

19:53

groomer or the client and the dog that

19:56

they are essentially consenting to what is being

19:59

done. So, they are taught to give you a

20:04

signal that they're comfortable with something happening and

20:07

then you do the thing. So, say with Arrow, my boy, he will

20:11

do a chin rest and that means, okay,

20:14

I'm comfortable with what you're doing, so I might do an ear clean, I'll tell him

20:17

I'm going to touch his ears, touch his ear, if he lifts his head up at

20:21

any time, I will stop. So, that's a mutual understanding, but it does

20:25

take more time to teach because you've got

20:28

to create a language essentially and you've really,

20:30

for it to be proper cooperative care, the

20:32

dog has to understand it entirely. Whereas fear-free slash like low stress, you

20:39

are looking for minimal restraint, allowing the dog

20:43

lots of breaks if they start to get a little bit worried, using lots of reinforcement.

20:48

They might not necessarily understand exactly what is

20:51

going to happen, but you are trying to

20:55

keep that stress level down. If they get too worried, you make a

20:59

different appointment, you move them on. So, with cooperative, I will always have the

21:07

table down so the dog can step away at any time because we have that level

21:11

of communication that on table means, okay, we're

21:13

going to do stuff and off table means, okay, I'm going to leave you alone or

21:16

have a play or whatever. Whereas low stress, fear-free is they will

21:22

be on the table, I'll have the table up to a comfortable height for me.

21:25

I usually don't use any level of restraint,

21:28

however, if they're a dog who might have a tendency to want to jump off the

21:31

table, whether stress or because they hear a

21:34

noise outside and get excited, I will have

21:36

a grooming loop that is loose so they

21:38

can continue to move around the table, but it just gives that added safety.

21:43

I will still give them breaks if they express that they need it, but it's not

21:47

that constant on and off because we don't

21:49

have that level of training in place to

21:52

be able to do that. It sounds like one reason you might go

21:56

the more reduced stress way, the fear-free

22:00

or most reduced stress way, I don't know

22:02

that I'm using, am I using the language right?

22:05

Would you say fear-free reduced stress is

22:07

the same sort of umbrella? Yeah, pretty much.

22:11

Okay. So, one reason you might go that way

22:13

you said was because of resources. It takes a lot more time and therefore

22:18

a lot more money also for folks, I'm sure, to work on cooperative care rather than

22:24

fear-free, but are there other reasons that you might go that route too?

22:27

Are there times that you might go back and forth some?

22:30

Usually once I'm committed to cooperative care with

22:33

a dog, I stick with cooperative care because

22:36

it's such a trust-building exercise that if

22:40

you go backwards with it, then you undo

22:42

a lot of things. And a lot of the dogs that I'm

22:45

in cooperative care with are a high bite

22:48

risk or they have major anxiety around grooming.

22:52

There's very few dogs I'm doing cooperative care with who are happy about grooming naturally.

22:57

So, they're dogs I don't want to push them. If there's a situation in a cooperative care,

23:05

like what's the word, in a cooperative care

23:08

client that they need something done urgently, then

23:14

there's a few options there. Usually, I will refer to the local veterinary

23:21

behavioural services where they will apply some sedation

23:24

and get it done. Otherwise, we may try, you know, they might

23:29

go to the vet, get meds, we'll try those on board here.

23:34

And that can be a way to get things done that are really urgently needed.

23:39

For dogs that it's low stress handling, if

23:41

there is a really urgent thing that needs

23:44

to be done, say there's a nail curling around into their pad or something like that,

23:48

it's not something, you don't want to put a dog under anaesthetic to have one nail

23:52

cut. So, there is the approach of get it

23:55

done and then reduce the trauma of the

23:58

incident by having a lot of fun afterwards.

24:00

So, I might have the owner quickly restrain

24:03

the dog, quickly cut the nail, and then

24:06

we have a party, we have the treats, we have the toys, we have everything.

24:09

Because that one sort of scary second, the

24:13

longer effects of that scary moment can be

24:16

reduced. So, yeah, it really depends on the emotional

24:19

capacity of the dog and what level of

24:23

risk they are, how anxious they are, that kind of thing as to when I might

24:26

step away from a cooperative like idea to

24:31

going to a fear-free, stress-free type

24:33

situation. Yeah, that all makes total sense.

24:35

Thank you. Another quick question here before we move on

24:39

to the other questions. I feel like you've said so much in

24:43

the first piece. I feel like we could spend the episode

24:46

just talking about all of the things that you started talking about there.

24:50

But we want to get on to the other questions as well.

24:52

But I'm going to ask one more thing here before we do.

24:56

So, it sounds like you get a lot

24:58

of clientele who their dogs have had negative

25:02

experiences at the groomer maybe, or they've just

25:06

been always scared of the groomer for some

25:08

reason, or there are puppies who are already

25:10

showing some behavioral issues. I'm curious, do you get anybody who's just

25:17

interested in cooperative care who just has a

25:20

young puppy who they're wanting to get them started off on the right paw with cooperative

25:24

care? Do you ever have that kind of luck

25:27

or not yet? Saying a lot of things is one of

25:30

my greatest strengths, just so you know.

25:32

So, really, as of yet, I've had adult

25:37

dogs come to me whose caregivers have learned

25:41

about the cooperative side of things.

25:44

But I've not been doing tons of advertising

25:47

for the cooperative side of things. As I mentioned in my bio, I still

25:51

very much feel like a baby trainer, and I definitely have some big concerns about like,

25:56

oh my god, am I not going to do it right? So, I get myself worried about that kind

26:01

of thing. It's something I'm very eager to do in

26:04

the future. I've had a few puppies who are puppies

26:10

that my clients, whose previous dogs have passed

26:12

away, they get a new puppy. So, I'll introduce them to this idea at

26:16

the start. Essentially, if they're eager to do that kind

26:20

of thing, brilliant. Otherwise, I might ask them to go to

26:22

another salon so that I can continue doing this behavioral type stuff.

26:27

And I have had some massive success with

26:29

some of the puppies that I've worked with cooperatively when they've come.

26:33

I've got three legatos that come in together,

26:36

beautiful dogs. And I think I've had the puppy in

26:39

for her fourth session now, and she's really

26:43

starting to get the hang of it. She's happy to be on the table.

26:47

She's accepting the clippers. She's accepting the scissors.

26:50

She's absolutely having a great time, wants to

26:52

get up on the table and shove her sisters off. She's brilliant.

26:56

So, it's so much fun when you get

26:58

a puppy doing it because it's hard work

27:01

working with these dogs who have a lot of trauma or have a lot of fear

27:04

around grooming. It's very refreshing when you have a dog

27:07

who's just like, heck yeah, this is great. I love this.

27:10

So, it does happen and I'm hoping that's

27:13

something I can build my business towards more

27:16

in the future. Yeah, I think it's just that's amazing that

27:19

you have the opportunity to do that sometimes.

27:22

And I think it's also amazing that here these dogs that you're working with are dogs

27:26

who have a negative history around grooming already

27:28

or at least negative feelings about grooming already

27:31

for one reason or another, whether it's their

27:34

behavioral history or their, like you said, their

27:36

brain or their genetics or whatever is contributing

27:39

to it. But it's amazing that you're able to get

27:45

those dogs with such extreme kind of big

27:48

feelings about, I guess that's pretty redundant, extreme

27:51

big feelings about grooming, you're able to get

27:55

them to participate in their own care or

27:59

to reduce their stress, you know, which is

28:01

really cool. How much easier is it to just start

28:07

that way for most dogs, you know, like

28:09

all of that could be avoided for dogs.

28:13

So, I think it's just amazing the work

28:15

that you're doing and the the potential ripples

28:19

it has for the future too.

28:22

You know, I hope to see so much more of this in the grooming industry.

28:25

So, thank you for all that you're doing

28:27

in this field. Thank you.

28:30

Thank you. And yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to education.

28:33

People don't realize this is an option and

28:36

so it's not something they seek out.

28:38

They might see some videos about on the internet with an elephant in the zoo or

28:42

something or occasionally, you know, there's starting to be some dog videos circulating now, which is

28:46

awesome. People just don't realize it's actually a thing

28:49

that can be done and so they're not

28:52

going to seek it out. So, I'm hoping over time, as I have

28:57

more time to take more clients on, that

29:00

I can start educating more people and getting

29:02

people who are interested to actually try it

29:04

out. I'm so glad you said that.

29:06

I thought of that earlier and then I

29:09

completely forgot about it. But yeah, education is such a huge component

29:12

of this for the general public and I

29:15

would think, I mean, I've never done anything

29:17

related to grooming at all, but I'm just going to go out on a limb here

29:20

and guess that the type of work that

29:23

you're doing is not necessarily standard practice and

29:29

taught to groomers as they're learning the skill

29:32

or the trade. Am I right there? Yeah, no, it's not something many groomers know

29:38

about or it's in the too hard basket.

29:43

It's like I mentioned earlier, it's considered a

29:46

bit groom, like, oh, you know, just rub

29:49

some essential oils on them and you'll be right. It's still very controversial in the grooming world.

29:56

It's too hard. Groomers don't believe that people A, want it

30:00

and B, will pay for it. And it also takes a whole new skill

30:04

set because grooming, when you're educated on grooming,

30:10

the education available is not about behavior.

30:13

I've worked in salons where I've been told to alpha role dogs who were scared or

30:19

being aggressive or, you know, playing up, quote

30:22

unquote. I've been told that dogs were trying to

30:26

dominate me. I've seen people get bitten quite severely because

30:30

they were just ignoring what the dogs were saying. There's just such a lack of behavior knowledge

30:35

in the grooming world. And I think it should come hand in

30:37

hand. It needs to be, if you're going to

30:39

work with these dogs so intimately, like you

30:42

were doing, you're touching every part of their

30:44

body and you're restraining them and you're taking

30:47

away their autonomy, essentially.

30:50

It's terrifying. And yeah, it's easy enough for dogs who

30:55

will just go into a state of learned

30:57

helplessness. Those are the dogs that are quote unquote

30:59

good dogs in the grooming world.

31:02

They stand there and they don't do anything

31:04

and they shut down. Dogs do just naturally think that it's great.

31:07

They don't care. They're just like, okay, I'll hang out with

31:10

you, whatever you do. But the majority of dogs who tolerate it

31:14

are doing that. They're tolerating it. It's learned helplessness.

31:17

It's okay. It'll be over and done with in a second. But the dogs who don't tolerate it and

31:23

who start to bite or become very fidgety

31:26

are the problem dogs. They become the dogs that are dangerous and

31:31

they get banned from grooming salons. They're aggressive and do not touch this dog

31:37

because they will bite you. It's really disappointing because I've had so many

31:42

of these dogs come to me after they've been labeled with these different names and behaviors.

31:49

They come to me and they're just scared

31:52

or they're in pain. Pain is another massive one.

31:54

People do not identify pain enough.

31:57

If you're already in pain, you're going to

31:59

be worried about being groomed and then you're

32:02

potentially going to hurt when you're being groomed. If a dog's got problems with their knees,

32:06

then their legs are going to hurt. Another thing that people don't realize is that

32:10

if the problems are with the back knees, it's often the front legs that are the

32:13

problem for grooming because they weight bear more

32:16

on their front to avoid pain in the

32:18

back. Therefore, they're probably quite tense in their shoulders.

32:21

You might see more issues with the front

32:23

feet. Even little things like a chronic ear infection,

32:28

yes, the dog might be sensitive around their head, but the dog also feels awful.

32:32

They're not going to want to be touched.

32:35

Again, some dogs will have two massive ear

32:37

infections and skinny shoes and everything and not

32:40

be faced by anything. That comes down to personality.

32:43

It comes down to genetics. One dog who might be perfectly fine with

32:49

all of these issues and totally easy to

32:51

groom, there might be another dog who has

32:55

one issue. For them, that's a really big deal.

32:58

Therefore, it makes everything difficult. I do wish there was more of a

33:01

push for behavior knowledge and understanding of the

33:05

whole dog when grooming and not just making

33:08

them look pretty. There's a lot of focus on welfare as

33:12

well in grooming, don't get me wrong. It's a lot of making sure the dogs

33:15

aren't matted, making sure the nails are maintained and the groomers care.

33:18

This is what gets me. Groomers don't groom because they hate dogs.

33:21

They love dogs. I don't hate other groomers.

33:25

I know that they're doing the best they

33:27

can with the knowledge they have, but there

33:31

is this very strong mindset in the grooming

33:33

industry that the way that I'm doing things

33:35

is impossible or it's too hard because you

33:39

have to learn this whole different world.

33:42

People who've been in the industry for 40 years, A, don't want to do that, and

33:45

B, don't think I know what I'm talking about because I've only been in the industry

33:48

for 10 years. I'm just hoping I can lead by example

33:52

a little bit. Even if it's just one person here and

33:54

there that decides to try it, I guess

33:57

the other hard part is it's not an instant result.

34:00

When you bully a dog into submission or

34:03

you punish them until they stop being difficult,

34:06

it's a very instant result. It feels good.

34:10

It doesn't feel good to hurt the dog, but it gets those endorphins because, see, the

34:15

dog has settled down. I've done the right thing because the dog

34:18

can be groomed now. It justifies being rough with the dogs or

34:23

alpha rolling the dogs or whatever because it worked from an outwards perspective, but it's just

34:28

got no respect or care for what's going

34:32

on in the mental health of that dog and how that experience is going to affect

34:37

them. They might stop for now, but they're going

34:39

to go home and go, oh my God, that was terrifying.

34:42

Then next time they're going to be more difficult. They might bite.

34:46

Then next minute they're banned from grooming salons

34:48

and their parents have no idea what happened because one minute their dog was fine and

34:51

the next minute they weren't. All it can take is for the dog

34:55

to be feeling off that day. You can have a dog who's perfectly fine

34:58

in the grooming salon most of the time and they've got an upset belly that day.

35:01

They can be in pain and discomfort.

35:05

The groom is frustrated because they're misbehaving.

35:08

Then they're punished or forced into doing things.

35:11

Then that can totally traumatize a dog.

35:14

I feel like trauma is a very controversial

35:16

word because when people see trauma and think

35:20

of trauma, they think of war and they think of car accidents and severe abuse and

35:25

that kind of thing, but trauma can come from really little things as well.

35:29

I think the most important thing to remember

35:31

with grooming is their entire autonomy is taken

35:34

away. Their ability to have control over themselves is

35:38

taken away. That's terrifying. I think one of the best things that

35:48

Peter Clarke said at her seminar, this made

35:51

the penny drop for me massively. I think everyone needs to think of this.

35:56

We were sitting in a hall and the

35:59

doors were closed because it was bloody cold.

36:01

It was the middle of winter, but they

36:05

weren't locked. You could go to the toilet at any time. You could go have a cigarette.

36:08

You could go and get something to eat. She said, what happens if I now go

36:14

and lock all of those doors with no explanation? At first, you might be like, okay, whatever,

36:19

but as it goes longer, you're just going to start worrying.

36:21

You're going to go, okay, what's going on here?

36:25

What if I really need the bathroom? I can't get out.

36:28

Oh God, I'm really desperate for something to

36:30

eat. We as humans have a level of trust

36:33

and understanding about that locked door and that it might reopen, but a dog doesn't necessarily

36:39

have that. That autonomy and that control over the environment

36:44

is so important and it's disturbing when you

36:47

have that taken away. People just expect that to be the normal

36:50

for dogs. For a lot of dogs, they just accept

36:53

that. They're just kind of like, this is my world and this is how things go, but

36:56

for other dogs, they don't. It's very traumatizing for them when that is

37:01

taken away. By providing them with that control, it can

37:07

totally undo the way that they see the

37:10

world and change their outlook on it.

37:13

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk on

37:15

autonomy and control. Thank you for giving your TED Talk on

37:21

autonomy and control. It's a very important one and one that

37:24

needs to be heard, so thank you for

37:27

doing that. Thank you for, like you said, leading by

37:30

example. I really appreciate what you said about groomers

37:33

don't get into this because they don't like

37:36

dogs. They love dogs. They get into this work because they want

37:39

to be with them and to contribute positively

37:44

to their welfare. I think that the things that create these

37:49

problems are more systemic and cultural and broader

37:54

than the individuals. I think that's important to remember and I'm

38:00

glad that you pointed that out. Thank you for leading by example.

38:04

I'm excited about the ripples that you're spreading, but we are going to move on to

38:07

the next question. Like I said, I could talk about the

38:12

beginning stuff the whole time with you, but

38:16

for the sake of time, we will move

38:18

on. This could be a 10-hour podcast.

38:22

Could you share with us now about a

38:24

recent training challenge, or I said I was

38:27

going to get rid of that word recent, didn't I? Was that you I told that to?

38:30

Maybe, I'm not sure. Yes. Could you share with us now about a

38:34

training challenge that you experienced, including how you

38:38

worked through it and some things you learned from the process?

38:41

Sure. I'm going to share a story about Harvey,

38:44

who's a little labradoodle. I was meant to look this morning about

38:50

how long I've been grooming Harvey for, but

38:52

record keeping is not my strength.

38:55

I'm going to guess I've been working with

38:57

Harvey for probably about five years now, four

39:00

years maybe. He has been in my salon as I've

39:05

been transitioning through all of these different techniques

39:08

and trialing out different things. He has definitely been so, he really has

39:16

helped me see that what I'm doing is

39:18

working. Harvey is quite a small dog.

39:24

He doesn't have any pain-related issues as

39:26

far as I know, but he is a

39:28

major resource guarder at home. He is very sensitive and can become aggressive

39:36

with no particularly identifiable trigger.

39:42

His mum is absolutely incredible and has done

39:45

so much for this little dude, but definitely

39:48

was in the deep end with him and

39:50

not knowing what to do. So was I when he first came in.

39:55

He would show aggression during grooming with a

39:58

warning. When I say aggression, I mean biting me.

40:03

He was really hard to read because I

40:05

think all of his signals, his ability to

40:10

communicate had been ignored for so long that

40:12

he just went straight to bite. So the warning I had that he was

40:16

going to bite me is that he would suddenly freeze and look sideways at me and

40:20

then bite in all of about a second. It was not much time to react.

40:26

Luckily, grooming these types of dogs has given

40:28

me very good reflexes over time.

40:31

So I just couldn't pinpoint a trigger. A lot of dogs, it'll be when I

40:34

touch a certain part their body or I

40:37

use a certain tool or something. But with Harvey, it was really random.

40:41

Now I look back and I think he

40:43

probably was just in such a state of stress that then eventually he would hit a

40:48

threshold and just go, well, you're going to get out of here.

40:50

And the only way I can make you go away is to bite you. So I was trying to use positive reinforcement

40:55

with him. I was using a lot of food, but

40:58

struggled to get him to eat.

41:02

He's such a funny little dog. Really is so unique in so many ways.

41:07

So he would eat from me, but I

41:10

would have to offer him about five different types of treat first.

41:14

And then he would take the highest value one.

41:16

And this isn't a dog that's going, oh, I'm not going to eat because I'm stressed.

41:20

He goes, all right, what else have you got? It's really, really funny to observe.

41:24

So now, even if I offer the thing

41:27

I know he loves most first, he won't

41:30

take it. He will see what else I've got on

41:33

offer. And so I actually offer him a few boring treats first and then offer him the

41:36

good stuff so that I'm not wasting my time with all of this, making the exciting

41:41

food boring. So yeah, I tried using what I knew

41:47

at the time. So I was using treats, but I was

41:50

still using restraint and still trying to get him done in a session.

41:54

And for the most part, he would do pretty well, but then he would just explode.

41:58

And once he had exploded, he was not

42:00

coming back from that. And I just couldn't see the escalation of

42:04

behavior because he would just bottle it all

42:06

up and not signal anything and then just

42:08

go, oh my God, I can't believe you're still doing this, go away from me.

42:13

So as I started to learn more about choice and control, I stopped using any restraint

42:19

with him at all. I lowered the table to the ground and

42:23

I started taking a cooperative approach.

42:26

Now again, shout out to his mom. I think she drives like 40 minutes for

42:30

each session, 30, 40 minutes and comes in

42:33

weekly, fortnightly. We're starting to spread it out a bit

42:36

more now. But the first time I put the table

42:39

on the ground and just sat on the

42:41

table, he wouldn't go near the table. I think it took me either three or

42:44

four weeks to actually get him to get on the table, which told me a lot.

42:49

Clearly this table had been poisoned and was

42:52

a dangerous place in his mind. And so he, no matter how excited he

42:57

was about food I had, he was not

42:59

going on that table. And then slowly I started getting front paws

43:02

up on the table. And then one day he just said, I

43:04

think I can put my back paws up here. Oh my God, party.

43:07

I was so excited when he did that.

43:10

And I'm like, look at the stats, how amazing this is.

43:14

So that was just the beginning of some

43:17

changes there. He also, I discovered that the way that

43:23

I deliver food to him makes a big difference.

43:26

Now, in some cases you might think of

43:28

that as, you know, food in an enrichment toy or food tossed to the dog or

43:32

things like that. Now Harvey likes my hand to be a

43:34

particular shape when I offer the food to him. So if I hand it to him straight

43:39

on my hand, he takes, he won't take

43:42

it. If I twist my hand around backwards and

43:46

offer it backwards to him, he will take

43:49

it. Once he started taking food, he's fine.

43:53

But when I first start offering him food,

43:56

he would only take it this way. Don't know what's going on in this dog's

43:59

head. Would love to have a chat to him and just figure out what all of these

44:03

behaviours are about. But yeah, once he's taken one or two

44:06

backwards, he'll take the rest forward. So we worked a lot on his comfort

44:11

of eating in the making sure he actually

44:15

wanted to eat and wasn't just kind of forcing himself to do it.

44:18

At this point, his guardians realised that getting

44:23

medication on board was a good idea. Medication has been a hard one for me

44:29

because I definitely had that internalised concern about

44:34

it. You know that, oh no, medication is bad.

44:36

I didn't necessarily think it was bad, but I felt a bit like a failure if

44:39

I had to talk to a client about

44:41

medication. Like I should be able to fix this.

44:44

Which is stupid. I'm on anxiety medication and it changed my

44:47

life. Come on. But for some reason, it just felt wrong.

44:51

And I really regret that now. But his mum also was very hesitant.

44:57

She was worried about the side effects and she was worried about what would happen.

45:00

And then I think there'd been a few severe resource guarding issues at home that made

45:04

her go, okay, no, we actually need to

45:06

really do something about this. So they got on board with the three

45:09

behaviours and he got a medication plan put

45:13

in place. We completely stopped grooming during this period while

45:17

they stabilised a good medication regime.

45:20

And then I think it was about six, eight weeks, he came back in and wow,

45:26

having the medication on board combined with the

45:29

new consent based approach just changed everything for

45:32

him. Just in general in life, he's so much

45:36

happier. He now drags his mum into the grooming

45:39

salon. Oh my God. He just can't wait to come and hang

45:42

out with me. And it is so beautiful. But tail wagging and he's lopping up on

45:47

me and he's just so excited. He eats consistently.

45:52

And now he can actually do a whole 45 minute session on the table.

45:56

He will sometimes step off the table.

45:58

I always encourage the dogs to step away from the table.

46:02

And he will come straight back and he

46:04

can continue to engage with me. He used to be very easily distracted.

46:08

So he would hear something outside and he would take off and then take five minutes

46:12

to re-engage. Now he would just stay on the table

46:14

with me. He will even do things like present his

46:17

bum to me for trimming, which is huge

46:19

because his bum and his bits were both

46:22

major issue spots for him and his tail.

46:26

So the fact that just the other day

46:28

I had him in and he just turned around and was like, have you seen my

46:31

butt? Can you give that a trim for me? That was just incredible.

46:35

We're still working on feet. Feet is the biggest, hardest one for him.

46:38

So I'm really hoping we can start doing either scratch board training or nail trimming eventually.

46:44

However, the other day I actually managed to trim one of his entire feet really beautifully.

46:49

He was just so on the ball. He's even accepting brushing now, which brushing again,

46:53

we expect our dogs to put up with it. But for a dog who's very sensitive, brushing

46:58

is actually really unpleasant.

47:00

And I get that. I hated having my hair brushed as a

47:02

kid and I would fight to make it

47:05

stop. And so I really understand why a lot

47:08

of dogs hate it. They don't understand why it needs to be

47:10

done. And he was definitely one of those dogs.

47:13

So now that he's actually accepting some brushing,

47:15

we did about five minutes of brushing the other day and he was like, cool.

47:19

And he, I just don't see any of

47:22

that. He never freezes. He never wail eyes at me.

47:25

He never sort of twitches his lip anymore. He totally understands, well, I'm a bit uncomfortable

47:30

right now. I'm just going to leave. And we also have a five minute fetch

47:34

session at the end of the end of the groom, because he just loves that so

47:38

much. I was a bit worried that might turn

47:40

into him not wanting to continue the group because he wanted to do that instead.

47:44

But no, he seems to understand, like I

47:46

stay on the table for about 45 minutes, then we do our fetch and mum comes

47:49

and gets me. So it's a nice way to build those

47:51

positive feelings around everything that's just happened afterwards.

47:54

So he really taught me so much about

47:57

how exceptionally important autonomy is for these particular

48:01

dogs. He just did not cope, no matter how

48:04

positive I tried to make it, it wasn't

48:06

positive to him. So long as I had total control over

48:09

the situation and he couldn't move away the moment that he started having that.

48:13

And yes, meds helped, but the transition started

48:16

without the medication. And now he's just, he's brilliant.

48:20

He's so much fun. And I reckon there will be a stage

48:22

where we can actually do the full groom

48:25

in one session. I don't, I don't push for that.

48:29

And again, you might've already figured out by now, but my grooms are not about making

48:32

the dog look like a show dog or look amazing.

48:35

It's all about comfort. And so we're getting to the point now

48:39

where he's not going out with, you know,

48:41

bits of hair hanging off him everywhere and all of those kind of things.

48:44

He actually looks pretty groomed and his mom

48:47

just is so grateful. You can see the bond between them has

48:51

improved so much as well. It's just been an awesome journey with him.

48:54

What a powerful transformation story. And I'm sure his mom is so grateful

48:59

and gosh, I'm like you said, it's changed

49:03

our relationship. I'm sure it's just kind of changed their,

49:05

their whole life together. So awesome.

49:08

Thank you for, thank you for helping them

49:11

in that way. And for sharing that story with us, could

49:14

you share with us now about another, cause

49:17

I'm sure this one would fit this as well. The one that you just shared, but could

49:21

you share with us about another training situation

49:24

that you're proud of and or one that

49:26

you have found reinforcing? Absolutely.

49:29

And to add onto that also, I also think that the amazing thing with cooperative training

49:34

and that kind of thing is it really helps the dog, the dog's guardians to see

49:39

their dog in a different light. And when they start to look at their

49:43

dog in that light, it's just a whole different sort of scenario, which is just awesome.

49:48

So yeah, another sort of training situation as

49:51

I've shared in the ATA community as well

49:53

with my beautiful boy, Arrow. So Arrow is an Australian Kelpin.

49:58

He's five years old. I adopted him at five months old.

50:02

He'd had a couple of different homes before

50:04

I adopted him because he was not an

50:06

easy puppy to live with. He was very vocal, very sensitive, very smart,

50:14

exceptionally smart. And I think smart dogs are sometimes the

50:17

hardest to live with because they just figure

50:19

everything out. And if you reinforce Arrow for one thing,

50:23

once, oh my God, he's going to do it forever.

50:27

At one point, cause he's very scared of

50:30

new things, he had bumped into the clothes

50:32

horse in the lounge room and was frightened

50:36

by the clothes horse. So I went over and did a little

50:38

bit of like positive conditioned emotional response with

50:42

the clothes horse. And you know, I gave food around the

50:44

clothes horse and that kind of thing. Next minute, every time he wanted something to

50:47

eat, he was pushing the clothes horse around the lounge room because he thought that might

50:51

earn him some reinforcement. So it worked.

50:54

He wasn't scared of the clothes horse anymore, but he'd also thought that that was a

50:58

really great idea. So he's an exceptionally challenging dog and I

51:02

love him so much for that because he's

51:04

made me so creative and taught me more

51:07

than I could ever imagine. But he is extremely body sensitive.

51:12

So if you touch two ears at once,

51:17

he will yelp. If you touch two of his lips at

51:19

once, he will yelp. If he gets his foot caught in something,

51:23

it's like he's dying. He's a bit of a drama llama in

51:28

the nicest way possible. He just has big feelings about the world.

51:34

And another thing that he really hates is

51:36

being fussed over. I don't really know how to categorise this,

51:39

but if I approach him casually and I'm

51:42

just petting him, everything's fine.

51:44

If I approach him and look like I have the intent to do something like inspect

51:48

a spot on his coat, he gets very

51:50

stressed out and he will grumble and walk away.

51:53

So I tried to do what I knew of desensitisation and positive reinforcement training where I

52:00

would, you know, give him a treat and then look at the thing, give him a

52:03

treat and then look at the thing. But it just wasn't working.

52:06

He was just getting more stressed and I just couldn't understand what to do with this

52:11

dog. I was like, this dog is just so

52:14

weird. And what I think is extremely relevant to

52:19

note and what I've realised now as a

52:22

connection is Arrow's got skin issues.

52:24

So he's allergic to grasses and mould mites

52:32

and a couple of other things. We've had all the testing done.

52:34

He gets ear infections. He has a little bit of an issue

52:38

with either a back leg or a hip.

52:40

We're not 100% sure what it is

52:43

at the moment. We're working with the physio on that.

52:46

But he has some bodily discomfort.

52:49

So often you see these behavioural issues with

52:52

dogs who have skin issues, ear issues and

52:55

then pain, underlying pain. They're already feeling a bit itch and so

52:59

their bodies are more sensitive and I realise

53:01

that now. I didn't so much realise at the start. So, you know, the vet would come to

53:05

do his injections and I would have to unload him with treats and try and make

53:09

it as nice as possible. But he was just getting more and more

53:11

scared. He would hide under the bed because we

53:15

have a vet that comes to us who is amazing.

53:17

So he would hide under the bed to try and get away.

53:20

I just couldn't really get it because my other dogs, you know, give lots of food,

53:24

they're happy, whatever. I just couldn't get into his head.

53:30

And then he had an ear infection, his

53:32

first ear infection and I was given ear

53:35

cleaning drops and I put them on a

53:38

cotton ball and then tried to squeeze them down so it wasn't as unpleasant for him.

53:43

And then every time I walked past him

53:45

for two days, he would cower and run

53:48

away from me. And all I'd done is clean his ears.

53:51

But for him, that was massive and that

53:54

was an intrusion on his comfort and trust.

53:57

And I was just like, oh my gosh,

54:00

what am I going to do with this dog? I have no idea.

54:02

And that's when Anka messaged me about cooperative

54:05

care. So I started training cooperative care with Arrow.

54:11

He was the first dog I ever did cooperative care for and I was sold.

54:16

Like could not have been a better advertisement

54:19

for the process because suddenly he went from

54:22

this dog that was absolutely traumatized and terrified

54:24

by any sort of care and husbandry to

54:29

throwing himself onto the grooming table when he

54:32

saw me prepare a needle. He has allergy injections and when I say

54:37

like, you want your spiffy ears, that means

54:39

we're going to go do something down in the shed. So it might be ear cleaning, which is

54:44

spiffy ears. But that's sort of his cue of we're

54:46

going to go do some husbandry. He springs off his bed and he races

54:50

through the house and he races to the shed and he loves it.

54:53

It's so amazing. We did his allergy injection last night and

54:57

he didn't even make a peep. He consented the entire time using his chin

55:00

rest. We also did nail trimming and ear cleaning

55:03

all in one session, which once upon a

55:06

time, any of those things would have taken

55:08

him out for a week, but we can do it all.

55:10

And then he's like, heck yeah, that was amazing. Let's go play fetch.

55:14

He's just totally changed.

55:17

He loves seeing the vet now. He thinks that's brilliant.

55:20

He's had ear samples taken by the vet,

55:22

which they've had to get right deep into

55:25

his ears, which was sore because he had

55:27

ear infections, but he let them do it.

55:30

He was just like, yeah, cool. You can do that.

55:33

Just an incredible, incredible transformation.

55:36

And the other thing he always hated was

55:38

baths. And baths, I think everyone goes, oh, you

55:41

know, my dog loves water. Why doesn't he love a bath?

55:44

And it's like, well, they have no control

55:47

over that. They're stuck in this one small space.

55:49

And when a dog goes into the ocean or, you know, into the river or chases

55:53

the hose, they're choosing to do that. But in the bath, they have no way

55:57

of escaping. And it's something they're forced to do very

55:59

early on. They don't understand what's happening.

56:02

And for a dog that's as sensitive as Arrow, a bath was just so traumatizing for

56:06

him. And because of his skin issues, he gets

56:10

quite smelly. He needs medicated baths. So we had to start working on that.

56:15

And so it just started with me teaching

56:18

him to hop in and out of the

56:20

bathtub. And then we would do little bits of

56:23

water in the bathtub and just slowly working

56:25

up to him understanding you can leave at any time.

56:28

And now when I try to give any

56:30

of my dogs a bath, I have to shove him out of the bath because he

56:33

loves baths so much. All I have to do is say, do

56:36

you want a bath? And he flies through the house and leaps in the bathtub.

56:40

And it's just so amazing. You know, you can tell he doesn't particularly

56:44

like actually having the bath because he's able

56:48

to communicate his way in and out of that.

56:51

He's happy to have it done. And the towel as well.

56:53

He hated the towel because it was restraining

56:55

and it was all over his body. And he would growl at me and get

56:59

very upset when I tried to towel him off. Whereas now, towel is no worries.

57:03

I could hold it up and he will sort of like move into it as he's

57:06

sort of consent for having that done. And he loves the towel.

57:09

And then he gets out and he zooms around and he's just so happy about it

57:13

all. So it just feels amazing to have been

57:16

able to reduce his stress because it was

57:20

impacting every moment of his life because he

57:22

would think every time I was coming near him, I was going to do something to

57:25

him. Could be as little as, oh, you know,

57:28

he had a little sore on his foot

57:30

the other day. And if I tried to look at that without cooperative care, it wouldn't have happened.

57:35

He gets very scared. Whereas we asked his cooperative behavior, I was

57:38

able to inspect it. I was able to touch it and pull

57:41

the hair away and he's just like, I

57:44

can do that. That's fine. So being able to ensure that he has

57:48

a positive experience with that and also shout

57:51

out to his amazing vet, Dr. Gregory Wright

57:53

from Adelaide Home Vet, who didn't have any

57:57

experience with cooperative care either. And basically he rocked up and I was

58:02

like, this is how we're doing things from now on. It's just like, all right, you know what

58:06

you're doing. So he's been so supportive and actually letting

58:10

me do these things with Arrow and he's

58:12

seen the transformation himself and how much it

58:14

helps. He allows me to do a lot of the injections and stuff myself because he's more

58:18

comfortable with that than the vet doing it.

58:21

And he's been so supportive of the fear -free cooperative approach, even though it wasn't really

58:25

something he'd seen before or experienced.

58:28

It's just been so eye opening. It's really made me respect the autonomy of

58:34

these animals and to see everything from a

58:38

different light. And I am so grateful this dog came

58:40

into my life. I never intended to adopt a dog at

58:44

that time. And I think he just somehow fell into

58:46

the right place at the right time and has been my greatest teacher and just amazing.

58:52

Such a cool experience to see.

58:55

We've gotten to see some of that work in the Animal Training Academy community, some of

58:59

the work that you've done with Arrow, and it is amazing to see.

59:03

And you mentioned that it really reduced his

59:07

stress or how stressed he used to be

59:10

about handling and that type of thing and

59:12

how this really reduces stress. And it made me think, much like when

59:15

you were talking about Harvey and his human,

59:18

that I would guess it probably reduced some

59:20

stress for you too. It's very hard when we're living with our

59:24

animals and they are avoiding us for one

59:29

reason or another, or we know they're upset

59:32

or stressed. That causes stress for us too when we

59:36

know we need to get certain things, whether it's grooming or vet care, done for them.

59:40

So I would imagine that that reduced stress

59:43

for you as well, which is a wonderful thing.

59:46

Absolutely. Thank you so much for everything that you

59:50

have shared with us so far. In just a minute here, I'm going to

59:56

ask you to tell people how they can

59:58

get a hold of you. But before that, and before we kind of

1:00:02

start to wrap up in that way, is there anything that you wanted to share that

1:00:06

you have not yet had the opportunity to

1:00:08

share before we wrap up here? I just want to emphasize that cooperative care

1:00:13

for grooming and stress-free grooming is possible.

1:00:16

And if you're a groomer listening to this,

1:00:19

please look into it. Honestly, you've got to put the work in

1:00:23

to start with. But nobody, like I said before, nobody comes

1:00:26

into this industry because they hate animals. And nothing is worse than coming to work

1:00:30

every day and half the dogs don't want to see you.

1:00:33

And it's like, I'm sorry that you hate

1:00:35

me, but we have to do this thing. The amazing thing with cooperative and stress-free

1:00:38

grooming is the dogs can't wait to see

1:00:40

you. And that's the best. It's just so amazing to have all of

1:00:45

these dogs who just think you're the bee's knees and you get to help them out

1:00:50

and keep them comfortable and bond with them

1:00:53

without any stress.

1:00:56

And I just think every ounce of work

1:00:59

that I've had to put into it and all of the learning that I've had to

1:01:03

do and will continue to do is worth

1:01:06

every cent to see these beautiful dogs just

1:01:08

bursting with joy. They're standing at the salon door crying to

1:01:12

come in because they just can't wait to get stuck into it.

1:01:16

And I couldn't ask for a better gift. Nothing makes me happier than seeing these dogs

1:01:20

love to come into the salon and it

1:01:23

brings tears to my eyes when I achieve

1:01:25

steps with these dogs that I never thought

1:01:28

I would achieve. And knowing that I've achieved that with their

1:01:32

consent and using their own choice and control

1:01:36

over the situation rather than using coercion and

1:01:39

using punishment, there's nothing more fulfilling.

1:01:43

It's just amazing. So seriously, if you are interested, fear-free

1:01:47

grooming is one way of looking into it.

1:01:51

There's also the Holistic Grooming Academy. They offer amazing courses and there's some incredible

1:01:56

groomers doing amazing work in this field.

1:01:59

We are out there and it is possible,

1:02:02

but I've got to put the work in

1:02:06

for the dogs and learning behavior.

1:02:09

But B, you have to really put the work into learning to communicate with your clients

1:02:13

so they understand what you're doing. That's probably been the biggest challenge for me

1:02:16

is really, really emphasizing to their clients how

1:02:18

it works and keeping them on board.

1:02:21

So yeah, seriously look into it. Such a valuable thing.

1:02:25

And if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how could they do that?

1:02:29

Yep. So I've got my website, www.thefunkyfoxhound.com.

1:02:34

It's still in progress. It'll probably be in progress for a while

1:02:38

because me and computer things, not the greatest

1:02:43

of friends. I also have Facebook at the Funky Fox

1:02:46

Hound and Instagram at the Funky Fox Hound.

1:02:49

Again, I'm not ultra active. I kind of intend on trying to post

1:02:53

more and share more, but social media is

1:02:55

just not my strength. I like working with dogs.

1:03:00

All the other stuff is hard. So you're welcome to send me a message

1:03:04

on Facebook or Instagram, chuck me an email,

1:03:07

whatever. I will always try to reply.

1:03:10

Not the best replier, but I love to

1:03:12

chat as you can tell. I love to get to know other people

1:03:16

and would be so eager to talk to other people who are interested in this side

1:03:19

of things. So yeah, please feel free to contact me

1:03:22

at any of those places. It would make me very happy to hear

1:03:25

from other people. Thank you for all of that, Emma.

1:03:28

And thank you so much, so much gratitude

1:03:31

for you for sharing some of your personal

1:03:34

experience and some of your professional experience with

1:03:37

us today and for all the ripples that

1:03:39

you spread. So from myself on behalf of everybody listening,

1:03:43

on behalf of Miha over here, I don't

1:03:47

know if you can hear her. Thank you so much for joining us today.

1:03:51

Thank you so much for having me. Honestly, makes my year to be able to

1:03:57

do this and to be able to sort of be able to spread this incredible message

1:04:01

to people. And I hope that it makes a difference

1:04:03

and get some more people interested in this

1:04:05

field. So thank you so, so much, everybody. We do, of course, appreciate all of you

1:04:14

tuning in as well. And if you have enjoyed this episode and

1:04:17

are interested in carrying on the conversation about

1:04:20

working with the animals in our lives in the most positive, most fun, and most choice

1:04:24

-rich ways, then as mentioned at the start

1:04:27

of this episode, the Animal Training Academy community

1:04:30

is waiting for you. Head on over to www.atamember.com and

1:04:35

click on the membership button in the main menu to learn more about what members are

1:04:39

describing as the Netflix social media platform for

1:04:42

behavior geeks. That's it for this episode, though.

1:04:45

Thank you so much for listening.