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everywhere daycare stacked

1:01

hey everyone today word

1:03

sign something a little different with a

1:05

full on interview as someone

1:07

i really admire writer

1:09

podcast her and media critic sarah

1:11

marshall there are is the cohost

1:14

and creator of to excellent podcast

1:17

you're wrong about which focuses

1:19

on clarifying our collective memory

1:21

and how we define ourselves by popular

1:23

narrative and myth and you are

1:26

good which looks at how particular

1:28

movies influence our feelings

1:30

and world few fair and i

1:32

talk about our fear of strangers why

1:35

having a flattering had sought is

1:37

crucial if you are ever abducted by

1:39

a serial killer the allure of

1:41

reality tv the connection

1:43

between satanic panic into and

1:45

on magical thinking and the idea

1:47

of having soulmate acknowledging

1:49

personal change and a lot more

1:52

if

1:52

the you like this episode and want to to hear

1:54

more stand-alone interviews, please

1:56

reach out and let let know leave

1:58

us us a a review or or go to to our way right at

2:00

unqualified dot

2:04

ladies and gentlemen you're listening to

2:06

on closest videos

2:08

honest

2:20

you are a brilliant podcaster

2:23

and writer and i

2:25

can't thank you enough for joining me so

2:28

you have to podcast for our listeners

2:30

who don't know the first one called you're

2:32

wrong about gives contacts

2:35

to sort simplistic

2:37

societal mythical

2:39

narrative i love this societal

2:42

mythical i grew up in a household

2:44

that really like joseph campbell

2:46

whose work has since been questioned

2:49

complicated

2:49

and really important and fruitful ways but

2:52

who at the time was like the it's scholar

2:54

who informed turns lucas when he was

2:56

making star wars and kind of going around

2:58

and exploring mythology and

3:01

that's what we do with tabloids

3:03

from the the 90s, the first episode

3:05

that that i listen to and what got me me hooked was

3:08

your examination

3:10

of the mcdonalds coffee

3:12

lawsuit

3:13

so oh cool which one, absolutely

3:16

fascinating and your range

3:18

from the a the of like ted

3:20

bundy been romanticized

3:23

which , into sort of the larger

3:25

thematic idea that i think you're

3:27

interested in with satanic panic

3:30

panic your last one was ronald

3:33

reagan and the welfare queen idea

3:35

they're all fascinating and i'm really grateful

3:38

for the work and contacts you provide

3:41

but provide did want to ask you with

3:43

void guess have been called slap heard

3:45

round the us and will

3:47

smith be viewed as smith be magic

3:50

gosh i mean

3:52

really torn on this i wish i had

3:54

a better answer because i feel like on

3:56

the one hand so much easier

3:58

to the won't happen the and to access

4:01

the primary maybe an away that

4:03

it was them and lot of the stories that

4:05

i spent lot of time thing the and talking about

4:07

anything one of the ingredients

4:09

for a big media event

4:11

is like a televised

4:13

moment or moment somehow caught

4:16

the film that people can then see

4:18

and discuss but what happens

4:20

with that is that people see different things

4:23

so even if you think go back and consult

4:25

the footage over and over and do instant

4:27

replay and slow and everything you can sell

4:30

come in with all of your preexisting

4:32

ideas about will smith or about

4:35

black man which lot of america's gonna

4:37

do

4:37

no i kept thinking what other celebrity

4:39

would cause it's sort of complicated

4:41

emotions and me because my

4:43

immediate reaction was like

4:46

that it's romantic but it

4:48

felt like i immediately thought about ted cruz

4:51

says and and thought if

4:53

this were any other celebrity i

4:55

mean my gut reaction

4:57

would be what a

4:59

fucking asshole via in don't

5:01

know any of these people so i think

5:03

you can remove are

5:06

you know hero worship of will

5:08

meant will think this celebrity

5:11

perspective how the

5:13

public views celebrity has become

5:15

really complicated with social media

5:17

man can you tell us about

5:19

the premise of your podcast you

5:21

are good it might be more

5:23

of vibe than than we talk

5:26

the feeling podcast about movies

5:28

and it's funny because it started off being hauled

5:30

why our dads are first episode

5:32

was about jaws which is i think

5:34

one of the deadliest movies there is

5:36

a once in brackets for this and the winner with

5:38

field of dreams which i don't think as definitive

5:40

bilic it has to be up there oh my god

5:42

this is for rates is like baseball

5:44

goes score and see

5:47

other issue said i've been called wire dad's

5:50

because i found it it with my friend alex

5:52

seed who we have

5:54

been friends since we met on tumbler and

5:56

twenty ten and one

5:58

of the things we instantly bonnet

6:00

is that we both for up with cranky old

6:02

dad's a who we were like the

6:04

last of many kids for

6:06

and we kind of were unpacking

6:09

our dad baggage and then invited people

6:11

to they didn't have to impact

6:13

our baggage to be on the show because that

6:15

would make it , that scary

6:18

but we've tried to talk about movies were

6:20

dad's were some in of a theme

6:22

and then after by the

6:23

year we were like apparently

6:25

sufficiently therapist by bad

6:27

and we changed the premise to just

6:29

having people under talk about movies that

6:32

were important to them that helps them it blame

6:34

their feelings or their worldview

6:36

basically having conversations connecting

6:39

over movies and the way that i think movies

6:41

are important partly for their ability to let

6:43

us do

6:44

forgive me if i didn't see it but i don't think

6:46

i did i would really love

6:48

and episode about love actually yeah

6:50

we haven't done one the at that movie

6:53

made me so angry and

6:55

then later the prepared for that

6:57

emotion i sided then of

6:59

course of a crying and i was hating myself

7:01

for getting sucked right for what they wanted

7:03

me to get sucked into pets i

7:05

would really love this year for the

7:07

dissection because i'm not quite sure i put my finger

7:10

on why that created such knee

7:12

jerk reaction and me early

7:14

concluded that maybe it was the thin

7:16

enough storylines isn't that

7:19

you just had too much going on

7:21

so you couldn't really associate

7:24

fully with

7:26

i don't know the female protagonists

7:28

yeah such protagonists blur of similar couples

7:31

and also lot of com

7:32

you don't know each other for most of the movie

7:34

the lot of sleepless in seattle and yeah

7:37

anyway that's just the my wish list sarah will

7:40

you elaborate little

7:42

bit on the idea of dad's and

7:44

hollywood and sort of the conclusions

7:46

you guys have drawn yeah it was really

7:48

and

7:48

thing to go into movies licking for

7:50

positives mail or

7:52

masculine identified characters

7:55

who offered nurture and

7:57

who were kind of like pauses the dad

7:59

figures and talking about different forms

8:01

of dad base trauma

8:03

that we can see being explored and movies

8:05

they thing wake one of the criticisms

8:07

that people rightfully have of

8:10

hollywood is that most of the movies

8:12

that seem to come out of it or about

8:15

feelings of white man and

8:18

i think that was true there that

8:20

we need movies about the feelings of every

8:22

that he that lake boy if the white

8:24

men are making movies about their feelings

8:26

and how their dads never loved them over

8:29

and over again that's really big clue

8:31

this kind of useful and helpful

8:34

mean one example that comes

8:36

to mind that we talked about terminator two

8:38

judgment day and how specifically there's

8:40

this voiceover and were sarah connor is

8:42

saying sunshine connor with

8:44

the terminator who has if

8:47

know upgraded to be nice

8:49

now and to protect him he

8:51

basically says i'm paraphrasing the she's

8:53

like and world crappy guys in crappy

8:55

step dad's the terminator really was

8:57

stop

9:02

amber point just very deeply true

9:04

is that's how any single mom might feel

9:07

and lake wow what revealing

9:10

film

9:12

are you still writing said janet panic

9:15

it's in process that in that

9:17

way where when there's pandemic

9:19

and you forget how to write any blame the

9:21

pandemic

9:23

probably apparently true it

9:25

still feels like all the research that

9:27

i do about anything else anything still see

9:29

through the lens of how does this connect

9:31

the say tannic pen how is this flake

9:34

or unlike the say panic panic this

9:37

a panic panic at this point would

9:39

say that it never really ended but the

9:41

have periods of dormancy like stephen

9:43

king's it but we first

9:45

began to see in the early eighties

9:48

when after the publication

9:50

of

9:51

a book called miss our members and

9:53

wix a canadian women

9:55

underwent repressed memory

9:57

recovery therapy the reason

10:00

it was being practice and very free

10:02

wheeling and confident way

10:05

by a lot of their this of time including

10:07

her therapist and later husband lawrence

10:09

past the with michelle remembers

10:12

huge bestseller the pretty

10:14

is thirty bestseller it wasn't

10:16

a jaws level best seller

10:18

and i think below that there's like books

10:20

that really big at the time and

10:22

that no one is really talking about ten years

10:25

later i'm laughing this case

10:27

it's in clinical capacity i mean the

10:29

issue with michelle remembers really was ironically

10:32

it was published by the editor

10:34

who cultivated jaws and worked with the

10:36

author and really

10:38

craft the book to be according

10:40

to him optimal a successful so

10:42

knew he would crafting best seller in he was trying

10:44

to lunch a publishing the

10:46

company and so needed miss our members

10:48

to be bestseller and you can certainly feel

10:50

that bestseller rising hand working

10:52

there but the problem was that it was used as

10:54

the training guide for

10:58

social workers and law

11:00

enforcement and the united states

11:02

and that was states problem because the therapy

11:04

that michelle therapy therapist use

11:07

basically involves therapist going

11:09

to very suggestive say they

11:11

never use the term hypnosis for that same

11:13

space and time exclusive that could have been

11:15

happening and it certainly wasn't

11:17

a lot of other repressed memory therapy of

11:19

the time and put together

11:21

basically a narrative where they figured

11:23

out using like she said the sessions

11:26

that she had been given to a

11:28

satanic cult by her mother when she was

11:30

child and had been we're

11:32

heard by them over a long period

11:34

of time than just than basic

11:37

sort of mathematical time frames and

11:39

she wasn't missing school none

11:41

of the events she describes could have happened basin

11:44

the timeframe that existed or the

11:46

things the describe happening to her body

11:49

and it seems really like these were kind

11:51

of dream visions that explained maybe her

11:53

psychological pain and

11:55

her relationship with her mother so this was

11:57

published was unanswered embark non fiction

12:00

they aren't as routine matter fact

12:02

checked and the united states but

12:04

it was treated as one hundred percent

12:06

certifiable fact so again

12:08

social worker is a law enforcement trained

12:10

with it and then started questioning

12:12

very anxious run and very leading

12:14

fashions based on their training with

12:16

this burke and on the assumption that there was

12:18

actually a ton of st haneke colts

12:20

all over north america and they were making

12:22

and they're busy to torture young

12:24

children for some reason it

12:27

feel

12:27

like there's such correlation the queue and

12:29

on here in exactly it feels like

12:31

you and i'm just

12:32

this would kiss and when took

12:34

a little nap and you know the context

12:37

this is so vast that one the same series

12:39

that women in this the it are returning

12:42

to the workplace after having children

12:44

in way that is very threatening to

12:46

a lot of men a lot of christians

12:48

and fundamentalists ideologies

12:50

and conservative political factions

12:53

in the country at the time so

12:55

it just kind of culture the make sense

12:58

i'm not saying anyone blocks to conspiracy

13:00

to terrify when the and not

13:02

working i just think that when

13:04

we're already afraid of a woman working

13:07

the idea that satan as involves may

13:09

be kind of makes sense to people

13:11

that the say the of it day cares

13:13

where the say panic panic was born this is the first

13:15

place where this is supposed the be happening in the

13:17

idea was that aldi seekers

13:19

had been infiltrated by powerful satan

13:22

as who apparently wanted to do backbreaking

13:24

work and be paid almost nothing for it as

13:26

part of their agendas satanists and all

13:28

this had the effect of making

13:30

it psychologically harder for women

13:32

to work the first case it mcmartin

13:34

pretty who were young children

13:37

were questions vary leading li

13:39

based on a extremely vague

13:41

and they shall come plane from a mother who later

13:43

turned the to have lot of mental

13:45

health issues that were affecting her ability

13:48

to make reasonable assumptions

13:50

about what was going on with her son and his

13:52

daycare after that case

13:54

popped up north publicized the way why

13:56

because started showing up all over the country

13:59

i used to compare it to the epidemic

14:02

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14:02

problem has felt like a sore lately

14:05

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or the wonder yeah

15:18

the idea that we as

15:20

society are been looking for

15:22

the conspiracy to degree where feel

15:25

but it's mythological nothing rational

15:27

and me taking she went on for

15:29

example the idea

15:32

of puzzle solving on the harmful

15:34

level the idea that we have this desire

15:37

to mistrust and it's and little

15:39

bit sad bit is

15:41

and mean one of the other says we did i'm you're wrong

15:43

about that i feel like people bring

15:46

up more than others and that means

15:48

that lot me to have

15:49

read real story about is the episode

15:51

about kitty genovese who

15:53

the like and had at the women who was

15:56

stabbed to death thirty seven of

15:58

her neighbors all watched and

16:00

did nothing and the real

16:02

serious and much more complicated you know

16:04

it has to do with the fact that a that nine one

16:06

one didn't exist yet was created

16:08

partly in response to the specific

16:10

crime the that the police new

16:12

york where so corrupt abusive

16:14

that often the you tried to call

16:17

them as some of her neighbors said they wouldn't

16:19

respond or they would

16:21

scare you enough that you

16:23

wouldn't want her proceed with the matter

16:25

even try talking to them to this happen

16:27

in the middle of the night there weren't street lamps

16:29

in the area and a lot

16:31

of people saw a little bit something

16:33

or heard something but almost nobody got

16:35

a full view of anything one

16:38

of the moments that people dead

16:40

see half and in front of a bar and

16:42

so the assumption that people made with that because

16:44

a man was attacking a woman outside of a bar

16:47

it was domestic altercation

16:49

and therefore not the police's business

16:52

for her neighbors business so

16:54

there's tragedy and that but again that's

16:56

not like people the neatly awful it's

16:58

like we are socializing people

17:00

to ignore a women being

17:02

assaulted because we have culture

17:05

with us the right of the man she's

17:07

in relationship with and that's on

17:09

us that that means that we can be better

17:11

and i think said yeah the queue and on meth

17:13

dismiss these myths were like we

17:15

are doomed the be awful to each

17:17

other i think her maybe more

17:19

seductive and times as

17:22

general this there i don't know but this

17:24

is the time when they're most destructive to

17:26

and the

17:27

people find like the direct

17:29

correlation between religion

17:31

and i'm talking specifically about this it even

17:33

the idea that one sense of morality

17:36

is directly linked to

17:38

religion and therefore su

17:41

my brother police whatever you cannot

17:43

be a fundamentally moral person

17:45

yeah i mean i think with st hack panic

17:48

and with que

17:49

okay think as they say tannic panics large

17:51

adult son i think there's often an element

17:53

of projects and and mean something you

17:55

see and the same haneke panic is christian

17:58

churches making allegations

18:01

about a large hierarchy that

18:03

is sheltering and hiding

18:05

and perpetuating abuse what

18:07

we know is that that can happen inside of any

18:09

religious hierarchy and that that happens

18:11

inside of christian hierarchy is

18:13

an evangelical and fundamentalists hierarchies

18:16

and america and and one of the best ways

18:18

to abuse someone and

18:20

who abuse their faces to tell them

18:22

that their part something good and

18:24

that the trauma they're experiencing

18:27

is going to be worth it because they

18:29

are bringing jesus to people or

18:31

something and i think the say haneke panic

18:34

maybe allows that to hide in plain

18:36

sight because it tells us people

18:38

whose lives are taken over by cold are

18:41

seduced by being told they're gonna be really

18:43

evil and they're gonna do evil evil

18:45

things so that can't be happening

18:48

to me because i'm being told i'm doing

18:50

good things so very oh geez

18:52

that link

18:53

sue your thoughts on true crime

18:56

and the best nice and

18:58

from my naive and uneducated

19:01

perspective with seems to be a fascination

19:03

with women are totally husband

19:05

and boyfriends are always that what is up with this

19:08

i have my own vague idea

19:11

but i'd love to hear yours maybe

19:13

should tell ya also that i'm having like

19:16

and out of body experience right now

19:18

of and good way and a great way rose

19:20

like hadn't gotten into any emma say

19:22

programs except in my home town

19:24

and was like oh i was supposed

19:26

to leave portland at some point mm

19:29

i became very emotionally attached to

19:31

the house funny yes

19:33

and i decided that the moral of the house funny

19:35

was grow are you

19:36

clinton oh my god

19:39

i love that

19:42

and then i went to school in

19:45

my home town which i was hoping the leave and

19:47

be a different person but i was like final be

19:49

the same person and then i did all this

19:51

work for the past however many years it's been

19:53

and now here we are and you're telling me about

19:55

my irvin i'm i know i was

19:57

inspired to do my earth by the husband

20:00

for yeah we

20:03

a year my ,

20:06

just got into colleges she

20:08

worked her ass off she's really smart

20:11

but she did have some early rejections

20:13

him rejections as an actor

20:15

you say that all the time

20:17

and the idea of comparison and and can

20:19

really mess out if you examine it you

20:21

are both you grow up and portland's a where

20:23

you going to school there yeah i grew

20:25

up right outside portland and

20:28

went away to college for to while where

20:30

did you go to school i went school bed and for

20:32

awhile so i did a little bit of acting

20:34

there then haven't done that sense that i was fully

20:36

it really opened me up and some kind of crucial

20:39

way i went away to college initially

20:41

college initially to my i wasn't

20:43

grown up enough to be i think in an unstructured

20:46

environment full of harder

20:48

and so i came and lived with my

20:50

parents for the restive college and

20:53

went to portland state where

20:55

i then did grad school and

20:57

hot for while it is like was

20:59

one of those characters on glee or

21:01

something or they graduate and then there is he

21:03

church as they don't know what else to do with them

21:06

as thinking about you know just getting myself

21:08

a hard time for that randomly that randomly i

21:10

think yesterday the like you know what

21:12

what if what you read the wanted

21:14

weirdly enough with lake time

21:16

to have a life where are you

21:19

didn't have to be social because he didn't really

21:21

know how to do that yet and you can

21:23

read everything you wanted and

21:25

every movie wanted and

21:27

do that instead of having the college

21:29

experience harry had

21:32

for the for two years and then it was

21:34

too much have lay in snow drunk

21:36

after too many parties he has can't do that

21:38

too many times so

21:42

i think for mean both writing and

21:44

reading have been kind of my for were

21:47

you trying to explore people

21:49

are into train understand what it feels

21:51

like to be them and so i think it

21:53

all comes back to that and

21:55

so it's true crime i mean this has been assassination

21:58

that i've had i'm sure since at least

22:00

tween them because i was washing lot of

22:02

cable at time and it was the

22:04

late nineties and so there was

22:06

just time crime programming i

22:08

and i remember the i think lot

22:10

of him pearls all thirty reading

22:13

and rule you have like your goosebumps

22:15

kids and your and the all kids probably

22:18

and i mean something i thought for long time

22:20

is that it's one of the ways the

22:22

women try and figure out the unspoken

22:25

line that dictate their safety and

22:27

america and who they are allowed to

22:29

be and still be heard

22:31

about and looked for and

22:34

the came up for me last night because i watching

22:37

the inventor the documentary about their

22:39

nose elizabeth holmes and was like i wonder

22:41

if the story was as you that was because

22:43

there is so much footage of her

22:45

there's so much good footage

22:48

of , clowns this company like some

22:50

been around and their balance houses

22:52

and i remember as remember

22:55

i was like if i'm abducted

22:57

are murdered i don't even know if

22:59

people are gonna be that invested in it because

23:01

there are no good pictures may i was like

23:03

truly concerned about the fact that

23:05

i found myself to be very and photogenic

23:08

and was like he just need least one good

23:10

headshot to have like a highly publicized

23:13

disappearance he just do and

23:15

i'm not gonna cut it anymore than a

23:17

student so there you go only

23:19

getting into college great

23:23

the the

23:24

idea though it's little bit you fold

23:26

one do we find comfort

23:29

in this fear that's

23:31

been and still deny as them

23:33

young girl i'm a very early

23:36

age i have a nine year old boy

23:38

one i know sadly

23:41

i would have instilled more fear

23:43

if i had a nine year old girl you know

23:45

yeah and why did my mom feel the need to tell me

23:47

the story of to

23:48

genevieve when i was twelve as if i was

23:50

like on the verge of moving to new york

23:52

the my mom gave me book called

23:54

the gift of fear and which the

23:56

basic idea is you need to trust your gut

23:59

the bird it's walking towards you makes

24:01

you you're an easy at all cracked district it

24:04

was both good and bad for me also

24:07

i think entwined in

24:09

full of the comfort that we

24:11

get knowing that are fear could

24:13

be actualized and cabinet

24:15

confirmed over and over and over again is

24:18

just an interesting human quality

24:21

i think the other i fear is

24:23

remember the case of gabby petite

24:25

own yeah it's veto like

24:28

that was obviously a huge

24:30

news story and a tragedy

24:32

just what become emblematic

24:35

and think there's also the idea

24:38

of like man for life season so perfect

24:41

without struggle which is why i think

24:43

both racism and and the

24:45

equation between wealth and

24:47

status as i think in our examination

24:49

of com for from randomness

24:53

what think the random stories are

24:56

the ones that tend to get lumped

24:58

into like the idea ted bundy yeah

25:00

like things just can't be ransom yeah

25:03

and so i've written about had been the and i feel

25:05

a key

25:06

certainly is treated and our culture still

25:08

as the earth serial killer his

25:10

lawyer paulino thing called him to

25:12

serial killers what kleenex is

25:15

to tissues his the brand name

25:17

that fans and for all others but

25:19

i remember this also is part my

25:21

personal mythology because my mom gave

25:23

me the stranger beside me when was fifteen

25:25

or sixteen and i

25:27

knew her to have extreme

25:29

free floating anxiety about something

25:31

terrible happening to me at any moment

25:34

which i think a lot of moms do not

25:36

all but quite number and

25:38

it's scary world and i

25:40

think that there's so much going on just

25:43

try and name some layers i feel

25:45

know you reboot facebook posts that go viral

25:48

that i think are kind of and the gift of fear

25:50

world view where it's like i saw

25:52

a black man with a bluetooth headset

25:54

at walmart he was in the same

25:56

i'll as me three different i'll say he was going

25:59

traffic me

26:01

now would not going traffic you and that

26:03

kind story i feel like as way for

26:05

white women sometimes of the key

26:07

is karen if you well to reassure

26:09

themselves that they're the only potential

26:11

victims and any store or

26:14

scenario that they're in so that's

26:16

and their a man i think there's

26:18

the fact that women in america live

26:20

in

26:20

world where the harm us and comes from

26:23

inside the house from the man

26:25

you live whether that you married and

26:27

so projecting the harm onto some

26:29

random during her and the night make the comforting

26:32

to ignore the scariest us

26:34

closer to you because the scarier

26:36

thing as far away and the

26:38

scary man you're with protect you against

26:40

theoretical scary man with a think one of

26:42

ways that the her he helps

26:45

protect itself and then there is also

26:47

the fact that they're your thirty scary

26:49

men out there sometimes that's the thing to

26:51

like feel like i've done a lot

26:53

of critical examining of true crime

26:55

and thinking about it and kind of all

26:57

the complicated things that it's doing in the ways

26:59

that it's problematic and all that very important

27:01

me and could talk about it all day long but also

27:03

i don't want discount the fact that sometimes

27:06

the scary they and the night does

27:08

come for you like just because

27:10

you're a woman and that's true too

27:13

and like that's just scary truth

27:15

to grow up knowing and your fear that can

27:17

be exaggerated bit like it's not entirely

27:19

ill

27:19

i know you're right when you

27:21

were growing up but we're formative

27:24

movies and television says

27:26

man

27:28

and an in the first five things i can think of

27:30

this is fun i really loved rocco

27:32

modern lies and nickelodeon

27:34

and feeling that had kind of an absurdist

27:36

quality to quality kids the hall

27:39

was very big for me as me as what

27:41

else i loved beauty and the beast

27:44

and feel like that you know helps trained

27:46

me and lot of other kids to love musicals

27:48

clarissa explains it all

27:50

the lot of nickelodeon stuff in here oh

27:53

and bill nye the site the guy with a huge

27:55

one

27:56

definitely did you ever go

27:58

through an angry state yeah

28:01

i think probably isn't name

28:02

grade i was my most which seems

28:05

like a com and choice of timing

28:07

i was just like the most prickly very

28:09

insecure spikes everywhere i think

28:11

it is an age

28:13

were like adults starting to reveal

28:15

themselves years starting

28:17

to like figure out the clues that you've been missing

28:20

yeah about just sort of the general

28:23

narratives that tell our children you

28:25

starting to get guys driving

28:27

by you and like turning around

28:29

like you newly formed body

28:32

yeah i channeled that and

28:34

she'll gender you know

28:36

i was very mad i was

28:38

born a girl for long time and

28:41

that was where i was like yeah injustice

28:44

yeah the

28:44

tough one to swallow i think my

28:46

main problem is that i just felt like i

28:48

was never gonna be able to find

28:50

friends and so i obviously

28:52

created mythology or i was smarter

28:54

then everyone else though

28:57

unfortunately identify in that way

28:59

with lot of guys who went on to sound very

29:01

dangerous start ups and stuff like

29:03

that really

29:05

yeah and then i think that the antidote

29:07

turned out to get speed friends you know

29:10

like finding friends and feel

29:12

like the antidote to a lot these problems

29:14

and teenager had his time and

29:16

to say loving friendship something

29:18

to hold onto that shows you kind of how

29:20

you can feel in a relationship and their

29:23

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vacations aren't you're saying is

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i went university washington which has

31:35

a huge greek system and and

31:38

i will go to attorney parties

31:41

because they looks really jan a set of college and

31:43

was seventeen but i also looked like i was

31:45

fourteen fabian like it

31:47

was a real dingy hauser

31:49

the drive to see

31:51

ways and and would tell

31:53

guys that i was sick

31:57

it was like my whole inside

31:59

com for me in view that

32:01

had promising young woman

32:04

yeah i don't know why i wanted people

32:06

to prove me i mean it seems

32:08

like one of the ways that you can actually

32:11

in real time

32:12

the a person show you who they

32:14

are and a guy show you who

32:16

they are

32:17

college is kind of miserable time for me in

32:19

a big i went to school that was a little too big

32:22

it was little too close him that

32:24

i remember late sophomore year i was

32:26

in a smaller class action remember what

32:28

that was but the sorority girls invited

32:30

me to lunch that was going to be the following

32:33

week a was really price

32:35

and was really flattered i

32:37

was really excited and then when

32:39

then daytime whenever they didn't say

32:41

anything none of girls that in i can

32:43

even dressed little bit differently

32:45

because normally i wore really

32:49

, blackpool sense

32:51

kind of smelly vintage clothes and

32:53

i would stomp around the campus

32:56

campus remember not knowing

32:58

what to do do i go up to them and ask mister

33:00

lunch is still on sight of kept quiet

33:02

because it was clear that

33:04

something had shifted since and they

33:06

changed their mind and mind was not to

33:09

be at the lead city of brass

33:11

yeah god that's brass yeah story

33:13

i feel like i want any more awareness

33:15

the

33:15

idea that you don't have to have a great time at college

33:18

either because feel it college is supposed

33:20

to be part of the way supposed to earn

33:22

how my shit absurdly costs is

33:24

that if you were miserable and

33:26

high school you're gonna have great time in college

33:28

and flake or could have like an ugly time

33:30

college you know that's possible to

33:32

and it's fine cause i think if you have this

33:34

expectation that everything's

33:36

gonna click and as the point oh

33:39

is the same

33:40

with hollywood if you have

33:42

gotten a little bit of career or if you have

33:45

a hit movie there's this feeling of like

33:47

oh okay have insurance

33:49

that very stalls in

33:52

an odd way that's of comforts me the

33:54

idea that there's no finish line

33:56

yeah focus on the goal has to be

33:58

the work which which his name because i feel

34:00

like

34:01

no one of the things i wanna do in the

34:03

future as more a live event type

34:05

stuff and to try and do the

34:07

library of you're wrong about because his

34:10

the experiences that i have been will the have

34:12

in the past few years have

34:14

just been that lake when say

34:16

something off the cars and then like here

34:18

alas come back here a from

34:20

and friends

34:21

you it'll be whole different experience

34:23

a yeah and that's

34:25

goal you know like not sort of hitting

34:27

certain benchmark but just like oh i'm

34:29

going to do that today hopefully if things go

34:31

well

34:32

yeah no it's to watching the

34:34

relief on my step

34:36

daughter's face and sense of being

34:38

after she got accepted really did

34:40

make me reflect the idea of getting

34:42

into college has been incredibly

34:45

stressful for her since he was like

34:47

twelve yeah and to go to

34:49

her school and to listen to it's the

34:51

only then everyone teachers

34:54

coach everyone is talking about

34:56

is like was foolish get into a i think

34:58

it occurred to me like they don't know

35:00

that a kind of doesn't matter

35:02

that the bigger questions are

35:04

going be much harder to

35:06

grapple with which is like what my passionate

35:09

about how do i make a living

35:11

main in the ingenuity

35:13

that ingenuity that

35:14

yeah maybe because we need more

35:17

ceremonies and right the passing in our

35:19

culture colleagues just really

35:21

when i was growing up the i probably started thinking about

35:23

when i was twelve and felt like this extremely

35:25

important component in

35:27

like who you are going to be for the rest

35:30

of your life it's complicated right

35:32

because every door that

35:34

you open changes things we all

35:36

learn that from that movie where gwyneth paltrow

35:38

does doesn't get together with john hannah

35:41

i don't remember that movie what sliding

35:43

doors i indoors it should be titled

35:45

long hair sort

35:46

yeah they

35:51

, that yeah but i feel

35:53

like maybe feel like way to think about it

35:55

is like what i want to that he

35:57

what does school have to offer me

35:59

and what do i want

36:02

next four years of my life to be like

36:04

or the next winter of my life because i could change

36:06

my mind you know

36:08

i went to two very different schools i

36:10

got different things out both of them

36:12

they weren't really it right for me

36:14

in different ways and then ultimately

36:16

that time ended and then

36:19

you know you do other stuff

36:21

i mean my god of colleague is gonna be so expensive

36:23

we should be thinking about it in terms of what

36:25

offers the students great

36:28

exactly so fire

36:30

at will you tell us about her

36:32

break yeah i immediately went

36:34

to organize it into two

36:36

main kinds of heartbreak the one where

36:38

your feelings are returned

36:41

and you're having the heartbreak of unreturned feelings

36:43

the heartbreak of

36:46

we both gave this are all birds

36:48

here we are in it's not gonna work and

36:50

we have to walk away and

36:53

it's funny i feel like the

36:55

my feel things are unreturned heartbreak

36:57

feels more acute and the moment

37:00

it feels like heartbreak classic

37:03

but what's harder and

37:05

what ultimately i like has

37:07

a different times become something good

37:09

overall is say giving at

37:11

all and walking away heard break because that

37:14

at times has salt lake you

37:16

experience relationship at some

37:18

point maybe you outgrow it maybe

37:20

a both outgrow it maybe if

37:22

you're being pulled apart and then stepping

37:24

outside of it feels like a lobster

37:27

popping out of a shell which

37:29

i encourage everyone to search for video

37:31

of he has it's very fun to watch the

37:34

you feel the sense of like however

37:37

much pain there as feel like that

37:39

was pain that you hunter said he had

37:41

to experience in order to keep they

37:43

they will be like morning i saw the death

37:46

and of frustration i think of

37:49

inexplicable interoperability can

37:51

i can see how there's something profound

37:54

about that experience of

37:56

both party members trying to make

37:58

bad thing work

38:00

and also i think maybe there's something very

38:02

complicated it about the fact that some

38:05

relationships or maybe not

38:07

meant because that implies that somebody is in

38:09

charge of all this but some relationships i

38:11

think and last decades

38:13

and some can last a few years and some

38:15

i think just have an actual shelf life

38:17

of the new human for a year

38:20

and i think there's something painful

38:22

about acknowledging the fact that we're

38:24

always changing that we're saying

38:26

goodbye to versions of ourselves

38:28

and as we hangs in a relationship

38:31

that made sense recently no longer

38:33

do this is something part about

38:35

accepting the kings noxious

38:38

in your relationships putting yourself how

38:41

old were you when you first sell

38:43

like you were in i'm a

38:45

team

38:46

third grade think

38:48

and and diary just with

38:51

different versions of i love range of on

38:53

we had that but it was like theory

38:55

serious about language i guess i

38:57

was like all now i will now i

39:00

knew it had something to do with the thing that have encourage

39:02

hands were like you know the mouths

39:04

go together for the kiss and then they it's kind

39:06

this jigsaw fact i was like if

39:08

that's not happening but it's not at hundred percent

39:12

when you were an eight team

39:14

you college and was

39:16

it was long relationship or whether or whether

39:18

it was it was a first love

39:21

in a my feelings are not return capacity

39:24

and thus so interesting

39:26

to me too i feel like there's this passage

39:29

and heart burn that i really love

39:31

that's about the idea that your therapist

39:33

will tell you that you chose the wrong person

39:35

because you understand you were tragically best

39:38

and to not work out

39:39

and there a bottle is like that's

39:41

not agreed observation here tragically

39:43

destined to not work out with everybody say

39:46

yes

39:50

you know we talk show alive our listeners

39:53

and i think i said something not something

39:55

long ago that i didn't exactly

39:57

mean and mentor sort of more complicated

39:59

idea but it came out maybe it's little bit

40:01

cruel which with was really questioning

40:04

what we think of when the we

40:06

say soulmate mom

40:09

the kind of goes back to the

40:11

idea of seeking comfort

40:13

in like lack of coincidence something prayed

40:16

and that the me out i gotta say

40:18

because i know that when i'm like

40:20

most infatuated with somebody i do ton

40:22

of magical thing when you know really

40:25

summed up i think by bridget fonda character

40:27

and singles where she like was up a paper

40:29

towel and she throws in the trash issues like

40:31

if i make this basket that means i should call

40:33

him and then he messes and she's like

40:35

with no basket call him com

40:38

the point that thing that think lot of brains

40:40

the you and then i often

40:42

feel like the way my brain shin

40:44

and stage of infatuation is like

40:47

not even even the same neighborhood

40:49

but the same wider enters que and i'm

40:51

thinking you know where it's just like

40:53

that's funny someone

40:56

searing this thing you

40:58

know it's all gonna come together

41:00

which i feel it's weirdly as one of big themes

41:02

and sex the city is like the push and pull

41:04

between like our our lives

41:07

all happening the way they are for a reason

41:09

or is this just bunch of stuff like that

41:11

sums up lot that show

41:14

you can't get a podcast about it but i

41:16

haven't listened to it yet we you tell us about

41:18

the thoughts on and just

41:20

like that yeah oh my god

41:22

love the okay

41:23

yeah so he did that to bonus episodes

41:26

that are free to everybody on patriotic

41:28

page for you are good i'm

41:30

anxious like that which i think was just

41:32

like what american needed like

41:34

what did we have to the you in january

41:36

of twenty twenty to accept complain about

41:38

shady as you know nothing but

41:42

i'm very pro and i think that

41:44

there's to me as something

41:46

that makes me really happy about these characters

41:48

who i grew up watching

41:50

and feel very attached to like

41:53

awkwardly stumbling into

41:55

the present day then i think

41:57

it's also like i have friends who are

41:59

in their mid to late fifties

42:01

and are like very hip and cool and

42:04

very savvy or than i am about lot

42:06

of social issues and stuff it's

42:08

funny to me that there are like i'm fifty

42:10

five i don't know what i'm doing and

42:12

it's like fifty five is the new thirty five

42:14

carrier so thirty five so

42:18

yeah i love we get to continue

42:20

our relationship with characters and their there

42:22

are many moments where it's like watching

42:25

a horror movie where you have to watch you between

42:27

your fingers were it's just like so crazy

42:29

but love bad i love to

42:31

feel the thing and twenty twenty two

42:34

what i say do

42:37

you watch any reality television

42:39

oh i watch married at first sight

42:41

but i'm not up to date on it unfortunately

42:44

be i think they so is incredible

42:46

you like that so you have to watch

42:49

before the ninety days ninety day

42:51

fiance him is really good

42:54

there's , lot of simplistic judgment

42:56

path and it's very much controlled by

42:58

the producers which i love it i also

43:00

watched the bachelor which i find just

43:02

fascinating would reveal

43:04

my own full of guilty pleasure aspect

43:07

by saying that it's really nice to escape

43:09

the realm that i participate in rain

43:12

participate just haven't quite put my finger on

43:14

why that realm

43:16

is so popular why i

43:18

enjoy it so much and

43:20

how certain shows have truly

43:23

brilliant producer minute the nation

43:25

and editing find it yeah

43:27

i was thinking it's funny how

43:29

we've only had reality tv in the form

43:31

of game shows right cause we would

43:34

have like what

43:34

my line or something in the fifties and that was

43:37

also gets an excuse to watch people talk

43:39

to each other and we've always had

43:41

talk shows and these they were like

43:43

we understand that people left to interact

43:45

with no guidance at all is often pretty

43:47

boring and so we the always

43:50

known and she the that like the two ways you can

43:52

make t v early give them a script make

43:54

them play bunch of games yeah

43:58

so like so like never watched that's

44:00

where the bachelorette because my understanding

44:02

is that the episodes are all like four hours long

44:04

and i guess i'm tired than

44:06

a wants to you tube break down

44:09

various seasons and v shows

44:11

cause i love to consume media about media

44:14

and it seems like there's a lot of debate over like the purity

44:16

of people than ten as well where it's like

44:18

yours for the wrong reasons yeah

44:20

and it's last season they have

44:23

the fantasy suite mans

44:25

the guy the bachelor clayton

44:27

clinton sex bachelor names clayton

44:30

was such a bachelor they're

44:32

interchangeable mostly he's so

44:34

clayton she sleeps with two

44:36

of them that becomes the whole big story

44:39

that fine idea

44:41

behind clinton was that he is

44:43

like is was intimate with both of you i

44:45

would think she would want have sex with all of

44:47

the p

44:47

when gonna may be married honestly

44:49

whenever a nominal

44:52

gave me hope has tell me

44:54

they

44:54

never told that story before

44:57

of homers most of those people

44:59

had slept with way of

45:01

court right they

45:02

know they get all played scrabble previously

45:05

they've

45:05

never been confronted about it they've never

45:07

had to tell their story and sure

45:10

that there were moments where yeah you know

45:12

the girls were like eight as you fuck him

45:14

yeah that's him and a like were mad

45:16

at you would ever been brushed under the rug it's

45:18

not name so was like oh

45:20

be like through clayton under the

45:22

bus a cast

45:24

him and i was thinking oh

45:27

they've really gone backwards and

45:29

then he threw him into the but still i was

45:31

getting total check out of it

45:35

what fascinating show i feel like i often

45:37

think about the evening gowns i

45:39

know they were all kinds different clothes and

45:41

they do different activities that i feel like

45:43

it's so funny to think about having

45:46

to spend hours and hours chilling in an

45:48

evening gown you know like mingling

45:50

in adolescent need books magazines

45:53

your

45:53

found her point your attic juri yeah

45:55

and you have to go in for what they call girl

45:57

said if you're wondering

46:00

why are all these pills the sitting on

46:02

the sofa as just talking about the other

46:04

well run a day for her work for

46:07

billie get in there and six

46:09

about your costar the reality

46:12

is endlessly fascinates me

46:14

how they walk the line

46:16

when the other countries they

46:18

are not nearly as popular as so

46:21

it's like in what american way as

46:23

is pumped into our bloodstream arena

46:26

food for brings her crime back and

46:28

evidently that lake it's such a running

46:30

joke at this point right that like the husband

46:32

didn't like you're watching an episode of any

46:34

other true frame show and in first five

46:36

minutes felix has been dead at mike you're probably

46:39

gonna be right and so

46:41

yeah like we live in kind read

46:43

kind of toggle between like husband

46:45

that it on oxygen which should be

46:47

the name of show you have oxygen why beat

46:49

around the bush and , bachelor

46:52

where it's like bullies marry me

46:54

out of work twenty six year old

46:56

virgin and

46:59

the

46:59

there going around of also have bothered

47:01

me he truly had to do like an apology

47:03

tour essentially to america it

47:06

was not a great time

47:08

for a gala i

47:10

feel like he gave us something

47:11

the talk about that seems like a

47:13

gift in this moment yeah

47:15

it gives me hope i get

47:17

truly know if he were see anything

47:19

check out before the ninety days okay

47:22

i feel like there's so many reality tv

47:24

food groups now because if

47:26

you are

47:26

different kind of reality show i

47:28

feel icky would want to have the actual

47:30

person's home because an actual

47:33

person's home as interesting yeah

47:35

the feeling yeah like the whole thing feels

47:37

so stage where think

47:39

everyone's very symmetrically attractive

47:42

and wearing evening gowns and also

47:44

the thing is like never talking about anything of substance

47:46

what if all they talked about was politics

47:48

and everybody was fighting the entire

47:50

time that would be great that

47:53

way to be added the day feel like the core truth

47:55

of it all is that we loved her why other

47:57

people have a friend to always something

48:00

the great babies wanna see other babies

48:02

which we recognize about babies that we don't

48:04

i think maybe recognize as much better

48:06

as adults but i think that's very sweet

48:09

and throughout history and you know theater

48:11

has been incredibly serious

48:14

and the same need within

48:17

a

48:17

the rain their i can't thank

48:19

you enough is there any saying that you

48:22

would like to talk about in terms

48:24

of says that you're working on are excited

48:26

about here i'm excited

48:28

for everything that's happening at you're wrong

48:30

about i think we've got some really

48:32

fun episodes coming up and are

48:34

trying to sort of find new angles

48:37

to look at the heard of america we have some

48:39

the heard on the adventures

48:42

of ronald reagan planned which i've

48:44

seen people express both excitement

48:46

and read about that dreaded good way

48:48

which is like my god we're gonna like truly

48:50

pier into the dark heard reagan himself

48:52

and we are and it's gonna be

48:54

a fun adventure and so everyone

48:56

can do about the summer slow

48:59

yeah oh my god

49:02

the oj simpson series

49:04

just blew my mind and can

49:06

i think you're just brilliant

49:08

i cannot thank you enough is

49:11

is really really lovely taxi it's so

49:13

lovely to talk to your this is such

49:15

wonderful open hearted conversation

49:17

with you and i feel like you have influenced me

49:19

and it's always been hard to have career

49:21

as a woman where you express something authentic

49:24

that yourself and also get paid for it

49:26

made you feel like your role model and now i have

49:28

seen seals

49:31

imagine what you

49:33

do in terms of podcast it

49:35

must take an incredible amounts

49:37

of research and hard work and every

49:40

episode assassinating and

49:42

so i just love listening to

49:44

podcasts think you think so

49:46

much sarah fi sarah

50:00

i