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Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

0:49

The House of Lords delivered yet another

0:51

blow to the government's Rwanda plan this

0:53

week. Rishi Sunak has promised

0:55

to start the Rwanda deportations before June.

0:58

It seems as though that is very close.

1:00

So tell me this. Should he think of

1:02

an alternative plan to this? Are you behind

1:05

the Rwanda plan? Have you been listening to

1:07

the arguments in the House of Lords? And

1:10

the House of Commons. 03700 100 444 is the number to call. We

1:15

can talk about the so-called WASP women.

1:17

The women who have been fighting for

1:19

their pensions. Was it fair of the government

1:21

to raise the women's pension age by five

1:23

years? Should they now receive compensation?

1:25

Can the country afford it? Maybe you're one

1:28

of the women who were affected. Do

1:30

give me a call. Just tell me how it changed your

1:32

life. What it was like for you when you

1:34

realised that your plans would have to change. 03700 100 444. What

1:37

steps can be taken to return the fit, economically inactive back to

1:39

work? When

1:45

we talk about that bracket, we're talking about more than

1:47

nine million people who aren't in work. Or

1:50

looking for a job. What could, should be done?

1:52

Again, if you are part of that group, give

1:54

us a call. 03700

1:57

100 444. listening

2:00

to the headlines today, the world does feel

2:03

more volatile by the day, doesn't

2:05

it? The war in Ukraine has

2:07

stepped up, should we have a

2:09

form of national military training in

2:11

case things escalate, 03700, 100, 444.

2:15

And finally, it wasn't a question on the

2:17

programme, but it was a story that broke

2:19

last night. It's on the front pages of

2:21

every newspaper. I wonder what

2:23

the statement from the Princess of Wales

2:26

about her cancer tells us about our

2:28

relationship with the Royal Family, our relationship

2:30

with the media, our relationship with

2:32

each other and how maybe if

2:34

you've experienced cancer yourself, how

2:36

you navigated all of this. How did you tell

2:39

your loved ones? How did you tell the people

2:41

around you at work? Perhaps 03700, 100, 444. You

2:43

can of course text us

2:47

on 84844. Text will be

2:49

charged at your standard message rate or

2:52

you can tweet us for nothing.

2:54

Hashtag BBC8Q. Let us start with

2:56

that lead story though. It was

2:59

an extraordinary video that was released

3:01

to the public at six o'clock

3:03

last night. The Princess of Wales

3:05

telling the world that she had cancer,

3:08

that she was fine and if anyone else

3:10

had cancer, they were not alone. I wonder

3:13

what you made of that. Let's go to

3:15

our first caller who is also called Kate.

3:17

Hello Kate. Hello. Broccoli.

3:20

Hi there. Hi Kate. Good

3:22

morning. Good afternoon. What did

3:24

you think when you... I'm

3:28

like that too. Time slips all the time. What

3:32

did you make of that statement and did

3:34

it resonate with you on a personal level?

3:37

It did resonate with me. I was

3:40

diagnosed with breast cancer in 2010 and

3:45

I found it exceedingly difficult to

3:48

tell my young children and my

3:50

very elderly mother whose own mother

3:52

had died of breast cancer. So

3:54

that made it doubly difficult. And

3:58

yes, I mean I think it was wonderful that... the

4:00

Prince as well. Sorry, what does she know?

4:02

Yeah, Prince as well was able to reach

4:05

out to everybody else, but I

4:08

totally identify with her finding

4:10

it difficult telling people, certainly.

4:14

Did you get to tell people at the

4:16

time that you chose? And do you think

4:18

that the Princess of Wales had that luxury

4:21

too? There's been so much speculation about why she

4:23

hasn't been in the public eye. Was that fair?

4:26

I don't

4:28

think the attention she's

4:30

received is fair at all, and

4:32

it is just so important to tell the

4:35

people that you want to tell, and

4:37

who can support you, which is really

4:39

what it's all about. I wish

4:41

we could all leave her alone now. I

4:43

mean, I'm personally not a royalist, but I

4:45

really feel for her just as a fellow

4:47

woman who really needs to

4:49

sort of concentrate on getting herself

4:51

better, hopefully. It's funny how people

4:53

sort of feel sometimes with the

4:56

royal family that they

4:58

do know them somehow. I mean, we've had so

5:00

many texts and emails to the program. I'll

5:03

just read you a few, and then you'll get sort of the

5:05

sentiment. Dave says, my heartfelt condolences.

5:07

I really hope she makes a

5:09

speedy recovery. Georgie from County Durham

5:11

says, Kate now needs to relax

5:14

and focus on the recovery. I'm really shocked for

5:16

her. Somebody else, I cried when I heard the

5:19

awful news about the Princess of Wales. I hope

5:21

and pray she makes a full and speedy recovery.

5:23

Just, I mean, when you did tell your young

5:25

children, how young were they? And I

5:28

remember it was very poignant in that video where she said, I'm going

5:30

to tell them, we were trying to work

5:32

out in the appropriate way, age appropriate way to tell

5:34

them. And how did you have that discussion

5:36

with your children? I do remember that we

5:39

were with my partner at the time, who

5:41

was the children's father. The children,

5:43

my daughter was 13, my son was 10. And

5:45

we sat around

5:48

the kitchen table, we'd had dinner.

5:50

And I remember saying, we've got something important

5:52

to tell you, but it's all going to be

5:54

okay. And they were silent.

5:56

They were really, I think, quite scared because

5:58

of the way. I had sort

6:01

of, you know, pre-pics it, I suppose,

6:03

introduced it. And then

6:05

I told them and said, but I've already started

6:07

treatment and I'm going to be okay, which, thank

6:09

the Lord, I am. And

6:12

then my daughter said, can we all go and play cards

6:14

now, please? We went

6:17

upstairs and we literally, all four of us played

6:19

cards. I think that was

6:21

her way of grasping normality, you

6:23

know, after the rather scary news.

6:26

Because everybody is scared by the word cancer,

6:29

even though nowadays there are fantastic,

6:32

you know, recovery rates, aren't there, with

6:35

wonderful medical treatment? Yeah. And

6:37

also, I mean, you know, the statistics are

6:39

just one in two of us in our

6:41

lifetime are going to have a diagnosis. Absolutely.

6:43

I mean, I'm part of a close friendship

6:46

group of four women. Three of us have

6:48

had breast cancer. Yeah. Yeah.

6:51

Well, look, I'm very pleased

6:53

to hear that you're well. And thank you

6:55

very much for giving the call today. 03700

6:57

100 444. Ian has been in touch.

7:00

He says, you can't sell your life for

7:02

public entertainment on the one hand and then

7:04

complain about press intrusion and tabloid headlines the

7:06

next. And

7:08

it's easy, though, disagreeing. Catherine having

7:11

cancer is a private matter and

7:13

she will get through this. Malcolm saying the

7:16

comment, I hope she gets the best possible

7:18

treatment, made me choke. I want all deserving

7:20

people to get the best treatment.

7:22

But being royal will guarantee it. Let's

7:25

take another on this. Moira Bowman

7:27

is calling us from somewhere

7:30

near Dundee. Where are you calling us from,

7:32

Moira? Rotticelli. OK,

7:34

well, lovely to hear from you. First

7:38

of all, what did you make of the royal

7:40

family doing this last night, feeling

7:42

the need to do this last

7:44

night? Well, I think that the

7:46

people scandal. Why

7:49

should she have to be brave and

7:52

tell everybody her

7:55

personal information?

7:58

The Patient information. The about

8:00

anything else belongs to the patient

8:02

was a good offense. Or up

8:05

papa. And. It's

8:07

just think. I could understand.

8:10

these isn't isn't people on

8:12

social media. He thinks

8:14

he has a right to move.

8:16

Can you imagine what it is

8:19

like put a young woman with

8:21

three children. Is as the

8:23

said to have said side and speak

8:25

with had been sent to get back

8:28

as soon as the idea. Of

8:30

blood for whatever. Much

8:32

food as the spells and then for

8:35

known as the he believes in the

8:37

but see. I'm a little another few

8:39

just as part. Of me. And.

8:43

I. Mean, she's. She's. Perfect Della

8:45

families that left children and

8:47

the last lady I wasn't

8:49

food sympathy with her but

8:52

before she went through and

8:54

anyone. Who. Suffers with any

8:56

major illness, A new don't

8:58

support of the booze. In the

9:01

then they do not need

9:03

to. Have

9:06

honey. What? What Do we do? About

9:09

some in book should be

9:11

so far there's his functioning

9:13

says who wrote a column

9:15

inches sam were written. To

9:18

shoot me a cop students as to

9:20

what's wrong with people? And

9:23

then you seen everything on social

9:25

media. the was to thought. I'd

9:27

say it's nobody's business. She may

9:30

be a prominent member of the

9:32

royal family. That she's

9:34

a human beings and and

9:37

how reluctant to her diagnosis.

9:39

Is the same as thousands and

9:41

thousands of people and I have

9:43

held many many patients on who

9:45

outside these it is the information

9:47

is how other hand I mean

9:49

I take it and nuance and

9:51

a hospital or in a cafe

9:53

I work with the objects in

9:55

theaters and any information inside that

9:57

operates the to stay there. to

10:00

be obviously to the ward. I mean

10:02

it only belongs to the patients and

10:04

the people getting for them. It's got

10:07

nothing to do with the people and

10:09

these ignorant social

10:11

media people. It's got

10:13

so shameful. Can I just put the

10:15

point that we're... I spoke to you now for goodness sake. Oh,

10:20

you're talking about the Mother's

10:22

Day photo. Can I just ask you very

10:24

quickly just to respond to one of the

10:26

texts that we had that I read out

10:28

just a moment ago saying, look, you can't

10:30

court press attention

10:33

on the one hand and then complain

10:35

about it. Oh, we went through all

10:37

that with Diana. How is she

10:39

courting press attention? She is doing

10:41

her job. She is

10:44

doing her job. And celebrities throw

10:46

themselves onto the media and they

10:48

get all the information from celebrities,

10:50

the ones and the things that

10:52

can get the same from everyone.

10:54

I mean, it's not right. This

10:57

is just not right to have

10:59

a young woman like that regardless

11:02

of her position. I

11:04

hear the passion in your voice. Thank

11:06

you very much indeed. Just

11:09

in case, you know, you are

11:11

somebody who is dealing with something

11:13

similar and you're looking for informational

11:16

support. There is help.

11:18

There are contact numbers,

11:20

bbc.co.uk/action line, or

11:23

you can call for free at any time to hear recorded

11:26

information. I'll just give you that number just in case it's

11:28

useful. 0800 0560190. That's 0800 0560190. We have received so

11:30

many calls

11:42

about Waspy women.

11:45

And I know this comes up every time we

11:47

talk about pensions. This

11:49

comes up. But this

11:51

news now that compensation will

11:54

be made available. At what point we don't yet

11:56

know them. These women may have to wait for

11:59

a very long time. But

12:01

is it fair, the question that was asked

12:03

was, do you think it's fair of the government

12:05

to raise the women's pension age by five

12:07

years? Should the women receive compensation?

12:09

Can the country afford it? 03700, 100, 444.

12:11

Let's take our first caller on this, Emma.

12:17

Emma Farmer calling us from Devon. Hi, Emma. Hi.

12:22

Hi. Yeah. What moved you to call on this? The

12:26

injustice of this government's policy to

12:28

women of my age over the

12:30

past few years. I

12:32

set up a business in 2016

12:35

because I didn't get my pension. Born in 56, so

12:37

16 would have been the year I

12:39

got it. I set

12:42

up a business cutting and growing

12:44

flowers for weddings. Lovely. First

12:46

year in a business, you

12:48

don't make any money. In fact, you lose. The

12:50

second year you break even. The third year you

12:53

make a profit. Then came

12:55

COVID. The furlough payments

12:57

were based on your previous three

12:59

years earnings. Therefore, I got

13:01

nothing. No pension, lost

13:03

my house, lost my business, lost

13:06

everything. And there must have

13:08

been thousands of waspy women who did the

13:10

same thing. But

13:12

self-employed furlough payments were not available

13:14

to us. So

13:16

what did we do? The

13:21

government at the time, and I remember sort

13:23

of previously, said, look, we told you this

13:26

was coming. It was everywhere. It was on

13:28

the news. It was in newspapers. It was

13:30

everywhere that the

13:32

age threshold would

13:35

be raised, suggesting that people should

13:37

have made arrangements. When did you

13:39

become aware that there would be

13:42

a change in your pension age?

13:45

About 18 months before I was due to retire. I

13:49

don't recall receiving anything prior to

13:51

that. And

13:54

you said you lost your house, you lost your savings,

13:56

you lost everything. Yeah. Because

13:59

if you set up a business... as you commit to it. And

14:01

with no furlough payment, what do you do? So

14:05

what is life like now for you? I've

14:07

fortunate I had a house to sell, so

14:10

I've downsized. I stack shells

14:12

in a supermarket. When

14:15

they talk of compensation, the level is between

14:17

£1,000 and £3,000. That's what they

14:20

said on the programme, just below shy of £3,000. What do you

14:22

make of that figure? Which

14:27

will cost the country in excess of a billion, but

14:30

what does it mean to you? What

14:32

the government never offered us was to pay

14:34

our stamp for those missing six years, so

14:36

that we could claim a full pension. You

14:39

had to find out as well when you had no money. So

14:43

it wasn't fair on any count. £3,000

14:45

per year, but you missed out? Maybe,

14:47

but not £3,000 of the one off.

14:51

Very grateful for your call. Thank you very much. 03700 10044. Let's

14:56

go to Angela Gardner, who's calling us from South London.

14:59

Hi, Angela. Oh, hello. Good

15:01

afternoon. I don't

15:03

believe that there should be any

15:05

compensation for people

15:07

who were in the transitional

15:09

phase or for those who

15:13

now who retired or are due

15:15

to retire at 66 or those

15:18

that retired at 65. I

15:21

just don't think it's affordable at all.

15:25

And the burden on

15:28

taxpayers and working people

15:30

in particular after COVID,

15:33

after the financial

15:35

crisis of 2008,

15:37

and everything else

15:39

that has gone on is huge. And I

15:42

don't see why, when we knew

15:44

from 1995, if we paid

15:46

attention to the news that the pension

15:48

age was going to increase, why

15:51

there should be any compensation. Yeah, I

15:54

mean, you had the last call, yeah,

15:57

Angela, the last call, I said, look, I didn't know until 18

15:59

months. before I was

16:01

due to retire and she

16:04

was saying she lost her business, she lost

16:06

her house, she's stacking shelves now and she

16:08

didn't know. Well,

16:10

I find it extraordinary that people didn't

16:12

know that the pension age was changing.

16:16

I am sure that I knew from in

16:19

the 90s, I certainly knew

16:21

as soon as

16:24

you were able to calculate what

16:26

age you were going to receive your pension, if

16:28

you were in the transitional phase, you were able

16:30

to go on a government website to work it

16:32

out. I remember doing that and I

16:34

certainly knew in 2006, 2007, 2008 because I was

16:37

making inquiries to

16:43

my employer about pension forecasts

16:46

and additional payments so that

16:48

I could protect myself. I

16:50

don't understand why women think that they

16:52

should retire. I mean, lots of complaints

16:54

have been made by women who retired

16:56

before they were 60, which

16:59

doesn't make any sense to me. So,

17:03

I'm taking it from what you're saying. You

17:05

said you made preparations. You are exactly

17:08

one of these women whose pension

17:10

threshold was raised. Yeah,

17:12

I was born in 1953. I didn't

17:15

want to be cheeky, but yeah, okay.

17:19

I actually was in the transitional

17:21

phase and received my

17:23

pension just before my 63rd birthday.

17:29

Okay, so your advice to a government

17:31

of whatever colour we get is what?

17:35

Don't pay it. I do not

17:37

think they should pay it. I think we've

17:39

got other priorities. I don't think this

17:43

is something that they should be paying attention

17:45

to. There have been legal

17:47

rulings prior to the Ombudsman's findings,

17:49

and I don't

17:51

think they should pay it. I mean, it would

17:53

have been lovely if they

17:55

could have reduced the men's

17:58

pension age to 60. and raised

18:02

the women's pension age to 63. And

18:06

had that been affordable, but the

18:08

way it was decided

18:10

to go ahead with it, I think, had to

18:12

be done. It was

18:15

unaffordable to continue to

18:18

allow people to receive their pension at the

18:20

age of 60. Okay.

18:23

Angela, as I said, this is such

18:25

a hot topic today. I'm going to

18:27

say goodbye and welcome another caller onto

18:29

the break. I'm Dorothy McIntosh, calling us

18:31

from Hawick in Scotland. Hi, Dorothy. Hello.

18:34

Hi, Dorothy. So you just heard our last caller

18:36

say, look, don't get it. Well,

18:39

lucky her that she got hers at 63.

18:41

I had to wait

18:43

till I was 66. And no,

18:46

I was not informed. And I keep

18:49

abreast of the news on

18:51

the radio. So why

18:55

did I miss it? Perhaps the people

18:57

that got

18:59

theirs at 63 were better

19:02

informed. But the women,

19:04

the people that were

19:06

the age was put up again at 2011

19:08

were definitely not informed. So

19:13

what did it do to the shaping? Well,

19:15

I bought a house in the most horrendous

19:18

area. I

19:21

had a one bedroomed housing

19:23

association place in East Lothian,

19:25

which was rather splendid. But

19:29

when I inherited a small amount

19:31

of money, I

19:33

thought it was just fair to

19:36

buy this house in Hoyt. And

19:39

I have had nothing but hassle. I

19:42

have had seven years of abuse from

19:44

the next door neighbors who fortunately

19:48

have now been moved out. I think

19:50

they were evicted. Dorothy,

19:52

we don't have them on. We don't know who they are.

19:55

No, no, no, you don't have them on. But

19:57

I asked for help from the police, the social

19:59

services. the council antisocial. So

20:02

just to get, sure, but just to

20:04

get back to you. So anyway, it's

20:06

really, I mean, basically it's ruined my

20:08

future, my retirement. I

20:11

moved in here a month before I

20:13

heard that the pension age was going

20:15

up yet again. Hmm. How

20:18

much do you think you're

20:20

owed then? I mean, you don't think

20:23

you've been wrong? I hear what the

20:25

last caller was saying, but perhaps she

20:27

was in a very well-paid job and

20:29

she's had a very easy start in

20:32

life, but a lot of

20:34

the Waspi women haven't. It's

20:36

made us so

20:38

vulnerable and I would like

20:41

to say that a

20:45

Damien, who have Damien

20:47

Green, is it? Yeah, Damien

20:49

Green. Saying that anachronistic, I

20:51

believe he used the word

20:54

about the, oh no,

20:56

that was the Lord Sumption, was it?

20:58

About the Garret Club. Well, it just

21:00

goes to, it's just another

21:03

symptom of why this was allowed to

21:05

be put through so sneakily.

21:08

Mm-hmm. Women. Doris, yeah. Yeah.

21:10

Doris, are you, are you, we're still living

21:12

in a very sexist country. Okay,

21:15

Doris. Thank you. Thank you very much

21:17

indeed. David is in touch on email.

21:19

As a man, I got no personal

21:21

communication about my state pension age increasing,

21:24

but I pay attention to the news, especially if

21:26

it affects me, and I was well aware of

21:29

the changes. Gillian says, I've no issues

21:31

with equalization of state pension, but

21:34

please don't say compensation is

21:36

unaffordable when governments have benefited

21:38

from my national insurance

21:41

and my tax contributions. Hillary says, there's

21:43

still an earnings gap between men and

21:45

women, and women carry the burden of

21:47

unpaid, caring duties, often to the detriment

21:49

of their careers and their ability to

21:52

pay into a pension. Sheila says, women

21:54

born in the early fifties also felt

21:56

through the transition period when a new

21:58

state pension took over from the old

22:00

state pension. pension so we were technically

22:03

shafted twice, so Sheila. Gary says younger

22:05

generations have had the time to save

22:07

into pension schemes whereas my wife who

22:09

has been affected by the decision to

22:11

raise the age did not have that

22:13

chance. More on this 03700 100444. Let's go

22:19

to Richard Rill who's calling us from

22:21

Newton-Abbot. Hi Richard. Oh

22:23

hello. My point

22:26

is very very specific. I

22:29

failed to understand why

22:31

this has caused so

22:33

much problems. A

22:35

lot of women who were

22:38

single parents working

22:40

in jobs had

22:42

raised their children, established

22:46

themselves in jobs and

22:48

then at 60 were put on the

22:50

scrap heap. There was a hell of

22:52

a clamor that this was

22:54

unfair. I don't know why

22:57

people think or are saying

22:59

they didn't

23:01

know about these changes. What

23:06

was the point of removing

23:10

women from the workforce

23:12

just when they

23:14

were probably the most experienced,

23:16

had worked hard for advancement

23:20

and were suddenly at the age of 60, put

23:25

on the scrap heap because their employers

23:27

could get rid of them without any

23:29

redundancy paid or anything like

23:31

that. I had a friend

23:33

who established after raising her

23:35

children, got

23:38

a really good job as a

23:41

dent as a surgery receptionist,

23:43

worked hard for 10 or so

23:45

years, beg to be

23:48

allowed to stay on after 60, was

23:50

turfed out of her job and then was put

23:53

on the pension at 50 pounds a

23:55

week which was about a third Of

23:57

her earnings. You

24:00

have to but you did here with senior in a some of

24:02

which which. Had been to be that set.

24:04

Which is that look water for women who

24:06

have have called up and he hath and

24:08

right now saying actually i have to down

24:10

sought out said he had that in a

24:12

the i lost my build their. Favorite I'm

24:15

a man with I knew about this

24:17

or why the hell did the women

24:19

not a know about this. Time.

24:21

Did as a mine are

24:23

as I have humbly a

24:25

very young age them or

24:27

can be an aggrieved. The

24:29

women were allowed to retire

24:31

at fifty and I just

24:33

do not believe that as

24:35

somebody else has said earlier

24:37

that they were unaware of

24:39

these. Try

24:41

say okay aren't which is fine. Two

24:43

or three, Seven hundred one hundred full

24:45

full full As case he Maggie Katie

24:47

I know that on his way to

24:49

Maria is lazing gray his waist and

24:51

when it comes he's a very shortly

24:53

Thanks for your patience Maggie Festival Calling

24:55

us from Davos a hi Maggie. Hilarious.

24:59

Rich. It doesn't believe it. Everybody knew.

25:01

It's it is. It's meant to the people didn't know he

25:04

says. Yes we are

25:06

knew about it. Under

25:08

unaffected by it. I'm.

25:10

I'm not like make insert oh

25:12

really like some money from the

25:14

government. That would be really nice.

25:17

But. I'm not one of those people who

25:19

need it. Does.

25:23

Last. Few days with

25:25

said that absolute poverty in our

25:27

country has risen to Twelve million

25:29

people. Those twelve million people of

25:32

people who need it. And

25:34

on Not one of them. And

25:36

so my advice is to

25:39

give it to the will

25:41

be to create some kind

25:43

of country additional benefit to

25:45

those women to are claiming

25:47

benefits. That. Yeah new

25:49

said that is means tested. Who

25:52

are really affected by this moon

25:54

but don't get the money so

25:56

all the ladies who wanted but

25:58

don't need it. That's my

26:00

thing. Yeah, no, no. And it's

26:02

a bot. But when

26:05

people talk about having these sort of tailored

26:07

schemes to pay, you know, just

26:09

some in a

26:12

sector rather than all, it's

26:14

often said that these, you know, to even set

26:16

up such a system that will judge a case

26:19

and then decide a case and arbitrate on whether,

26:21

you know, money is and should

26:24

be made available. Though it's an expensive scheme,

26:26

a lot of money will go into making

26:28

that scheme and making it work. Yes,

26:30

that's true. But I think there

26:32

will be less than paying all the women. Okay.

26:35

All right, Maggie, thank you. Thanks very much. O3700, 100,

26:37

444. Gosh, it's lit up. The

26:42

WASP women should get compensation, but we

26:44

are in a bad financial

26:46

situation, so they probably won't get any.

26:48

Right. So one text. A

26:51

figure says the change in pension age

26:53

for women was covered extensively in the

26:55

news at the time. The number of

26:57

women who were totally unaware must be

26:59

vanishingly small, through and bath. We have

27:01

no issue with equalizing the retirement age.

27:03

The issue is a manner in which

27:05

it was done, especially those born in 1954, like me. It

27:09

was changed very late and it was

27:11

poorly communicated. Anne from Northumberland says, if

27:13

women want equality and gender parity, it

27:15

means taking the rough with the smooth,

27:17

like men have had to do for

27:19

centuries. And this one,

27:21

H, by email. I was born in 1960. I

27:24

should have retired in 2020. I

27:26

attempted to join the WASP and I was refused.

27:28

They claimed I was not affected because I wasn't

27:30

born in the 50s. Let's

27:32

take another from this. Maria Billington

27:34

from Scarborough. Hello, Maria. Hello.

27:37

Hi there, Maria. What did you want to tell us? Well,

27:40

in 2010, my husband died.

27:44

He'd worked till two days before he

27:46

died and had three primary

27:48

cancers. He'd never had any time

27:50

off in his life. He'd always worked in front of the

27:52

cart and he was quite a bit older than me. So

27:55

when he died, I rang the pension department

27:57

to tell them that he didn't need his

27:59

pension anymore. and it meant to me

28:01

the good news is that you

28:03

won't need to repay any of this pension, but

28:05

the bad news is that you won't be getting your pension

28:08

at 60, or 57. So

28:11

what do you mean? You can go out and get a job. This is a

28:13

job center still open. I said,

28:15

my husband died yesterday. It's

28:18

deep snow outside. She said, oh well, just go

28:20

out and get a job. And I thought he

28:22

was incredibly cruel, because just before my

28:24

husband died, he died at home and he said, Mary,

28:26

I'm really worried about you. What's going

28:29

to happen to you because we work together?

28:31

What's going to happen to you when I die?

28:33

I said, oh, don't worry. I'll be getting my pension in

28:36

three years, so I'll be okay. So

28:38

I feel very let down and very

28:40

disappointed. And I thought I was a

28:42

very organized person, but I knew nothing

28:44

at all about this. I knew nothing

28:46

about the pension edge, but you moved.

28:49

So how did you manage? I

28:51

mean, that first of all, can I just say, whoever picked up the phone said, go

28:53

out, get a job, walk with your phone, just get

28:55

it. It just sounds incredibly

28:58

heartless. Well, when my children

29:00

came back from digging snow outside, I

29:02

was sobbing my heart out and they said, oh dear, what's

29:04

the matter? But no, it's not

29:06

about your dad dying. I said, it's

29:08

the way I've been treated and I

29:11

knew nothing about it. I mean, that's

29:13

appalling manners from that person. But I

29:15

mean, how did you manage afterwards? Well,

29:18

because I had four children and

29:21

they were mostly leaving home, I

29:23

took in lodges and I thought

29:25

that's the only way I could manage. And I

29:28

had some disasters and some problems with them and,

29:30

you know, I had to throw some out sometimes,

29:32

but it was the only way I could think

29:34

of doing it. Do you think, I mean, just because I've got so

29:36

many calls on this, just very briefly, do

29:39

you think you are owed compensation and what number

29:41

would be right? I don't

29:43

think you can put a number on it.

29:45

It's what it's done to you emotionally and,

29:47

you know, the way we've been treated. I

29:49

mean, I'm sort of a person, I'm very

29:52

organized, and I always help all those people

29:54

filling paperwork and I thought that I was

29:56

on the ball, that I knew nothing about

29:58

that. because my

30:00

husband had worked so hard all his life

30:02

and even though he's incredibly ill, he still

30:04

worked until the end, believing as he died

30:06

that I would have my pension. Okay,

30:09

thank you very much indeed. Let's go to

30:12

Ray Seymour who's calling from Bedford. Hi, Ray.

30:15

Hello, hello. Hi, so

30:17

Maria's just saying, look, I'm organized. I'm

30:19

on the ball and I didn't know

30:21

and it was appalling and changed my

30:23

life appallingly. Ray?

30:30

Ray's gone, oh dear. Ali Khan

30:32

is there. Hello, Ali calling from

30:34

Oxford. I hope you're all right.

30:36

You've already answered one

30:39

point I was going to make,

30:41

which is the cost of any

30:43

scheme to decide who deserves it

30:46

or not would

30:48

be tremendously complicated

30:50

and tremendously expensive.

30:56

Do you think the women are owed more

30:58

than an apology though? Some financial recompense. Well,

31:02

let me tell you from personal

31:04

experience, dealing with a

31:06

DWP, they

31:11

would never write to you. You'd

31:15

get different answers when you spoke

31:18

to them on the phone. For

31:20

example, when credits

31:23

were being given for domestic,

31:26

you know, looking after kids

31:29

or elderly parents, I

31:31

was looking after my grandmother and

31:35

the helpline just said, you're

31:37

a male, tough luck. Only

31:40

women get that. Now, is

31:42

that being treated fairly? The

31:45

term waspy with

31:48

the I meaning inequalities should

31:51

be equalization because

31:57

that's what the policy was.

32:00

men for. Have men and

32:02

women equal and women up to 1953 still could

32:04

retire at 60. But

32:13

what about the equality family? I can't remember the

32:15

name of the lady who said, you know, this

32:17

is just an inherently, I'm passing

32:19

what she said, but you know, sexist

32:22

system, misogynistic system where, you know, women do

32:24

have to take time out for caring.

32:27

They do get lower paid

32:29

jobs. Historically, they've certainly had lower

32:31

paid jobs and lower chances of

32:33

promotion. So why, you know, when

32:35

you're saying equality is fine, well, if it was

32:38

across the board, then it would be fine, but

32:40

it historically has not been. Yeah.

32:43

I mean, I feel much sorry for

32:47

much older pensioners who are probably all

32:49

dead now when their

32:52

pension was dependent on whether

32:54

their husband had paid the

32:56

married man's contribution.

33:00

And some of these women, either

33:02

their husbands lied to them or

33:05

they didn't think about it. And

33:08

they really were on the bread

33:10

line because. No, but that's not what I'm

33:12

saying. I mean, you were saying, look, you know,

33:14

the change, the changing of the threshold, just,

33:16

you know, it was an equalization and it

33:18

made it fair. But what our previous quarter

33:20

was saying, there was nothing about my work

33:23

history that was fair. There's nothing about, you

33:25

know, sort of the experience of women in

33:28

the fifties that was fair.

33:30

So why suddenly changed the goalposts when

33:32

actually our life history hasn't

33:34

changed at all? You can't go back and

33:36

rewrite that. And

33:38

no, but as everybody's pointed out,

33:42

you did have 20 years notice. I

33:45

mean, basically, as

33:48

recently as 2014, you could have got a

33:51

female, could have got the pension at age

33:57

Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thanks,

33:59

Annie. This is one

34:02

on text. It wasn't that women were unaware.

34:04

We just didn't have enough time to compensate.

34:07

We need a significant amount, but the economy just

34:09

can't afford it. Chris says, women

34:11

always talk about equality. When it happens, they

34:13

complain. Of course it was right to increase

34:15

their pension age, and there should be no

34:17

compensation, says Chris. Julie says,

34:20

I didn't get my pension until I

34:22

was 65, having previously been promised my

34:24

pension at 63. The

34:26

rate of change was too rapid

34:28

and without proper opportunity to plan. Another

34:31

one here, I don't think women's pension age

34:34

should have been extended to equal men's age,

34:36

because when women are approaching their sixties and

34:38

beyond, they are still having to deal with

34:40

the menopause. And another one

34:42

here, Stephen says, everyone was informed,

34:44

plain, daft or inept, to say

34:46

that you weren't. How do these

34:49

people get through life? Let's

34:52

go to one of the other

34:54

topics now on the programme. I

34:56

want to know any questions. And it was simply

34:58

put this way. What steps can be taken to

35:00

return the fit, economically

35:03

inactive, back to work?

35:05

And there are some nine million people

35:07

who aren't in work and aren't looking

35:09

for a job. So what should

35:11

be done about that? More than a fifth

35:13

of working age adults in the UK are

35:16

deemed not to be actively looking for work,

35:18

according to the new figures. Why

35:20

is this happening? What should be done about it? 03700 100 444.

35:25

Our first caller on this is Anna Hayes,

35:27

calling us from Derbyshire. Hi, Sam. Hello.

35:32

Hello there. So, yes, tell me, tell me

35:34

what moved you to call. Yeah,

35:36

well, I just wanted to explain. My daughter's 18

35:39

and she

35:42

just started an apprenticeship last

35:44

year. And her

35:46

experience of finding a job,

35:50

going for interviews and applying

35:53

and then the

35:55

onboarding process has been such

35:58

hard work. I

36:01

just think that when you're sort of

36:03

just leaving school, they've asked for sort

36:05

of two references and credit checks that

36:08

is onboarding. She did a few

36:10

sort of trail shifts without getting

36:12

paid and not getting

36:14

called back. And just it

36:16

was just quite demoralizing and it

36:19

wasn't for the want of trying. I just

36:21

thought that was maybe another reason. Right.

36:23

Okay. And where is she sort

36:25

of at right now? I mean, because

36:28

do you feel that she's been harshly

36:30

judged by being put in this lump

36:32

as if she doesn't want to get

36:34

a job? Yes. Yeah, very

36:36

possibly. She's lucky now. She started an apprenticeship last

36:38

year and I've sort of moved forward for her

36:40

there, but it just took a long time to

36:44

get into that place. Yeah. Sort

36:47

of when you just leave school and she

36:49

did GCSEs and A-levels during COVID and they

36:51

didn't sort of... All those extra lessons, you

36:53

know, how to apply for jobs and interview

36:55

techniques didn't happen. Yeah.

36:58

So it was sort of... I think some

37:00

of the younger people, they do want to

37:02

work, but finding the jobs first is difficult.

37:05

Okay. Thank you very much. Let's take another call

37:07

on this. Olivia Corey is calling us from North

37:09

Devon. I know Mary's waiting. Leslie, wait. We've got

37:11

a very busy day today. Olivia from North Devon.

37:14

Hi, what did you want to say? What, yeah?

37:16

Yeah. I

37:20

think young people

37:23

and people in general are soft,

37:26

too soft. In

37:28

particular, young people, their parents

37:30

are soft, the government is

37:32

soft, the benefits are soft.

37:37

I've brought up without a

37:39

lot of money and my first

37:41

job as a six-year-old was

37:44

to walk along Saunton Beach, selling

37:47

cock ices on a tray with

37:50

a leather strap around my neck.

37:53

Gosh, it cased. Gosh,

37:56

it cased. Okay. But

37:59

we just had a... sound like her daughter

38:01

was, you know, she was soft or her

38:03

daughter was soft, they were trying it. It

38:05

was just very interesting. I

38:07

know. So I understand that there are

38:09

always exceptions. There's

38:12

too much emphasis on mindfulness,

38:15

mental health, well-being. Okay, all right,

38:17

so let me ask you with your

38:20

background, you know,

38:22

possibly sort of feeling the chafing around your

38:25

neck from from sending the choccyces, what do

38:27

you think that's meant to do? What should

38:29

the chafing be

38:31

done? I'm not into leather ever since then.

38:34

Okay. What

38:37

exactly do you think should be

38:39

done about the economically inactive

38:42

but who are fit to work? To

38:45

take into account the exceptions, there

38:47

are always exceptions to a rule. But

38:50

as I say, there's too much emphasis

38:52

on yeah, mindfulness,

38:55

well-being, mental health.

38:57

Okay, yeah. No, okay. So I

38:59

mean, you're talking about the things that you know, you're

39:01

quick. What would you do? That's what I want to

39:03

know for

39:06

me. What would you do to reduce that 9 million

39:09

number? How would you help? How would you change things?

39:11

A3700, 100, 444. Let us go to Leslie. Leslie, who's

39:13

calling us from Litchfield. Hi, Leslie. Hi.

39:21

Yes, I'm one of the many

39:25

economically inactive, long

39:28

term sick, unfortunately. I've

39:31

got a developing arthritis, which prevents

39:33

me from working sufficiently.

39:35

I've also got, I think really,

39:37

after what I've been hearing is

39:39

I've got a fear of returning

39:41

back to work, because basically, we've

39:43

got a sit down culture, which

39:45

is making me sort of, you

39:47

know, ill, because I'm sitting down

39:49

all the time now before the

39:51

pandemic, I was a very active person.

39:53

And it was due

39:56

to lockdown, I became very, very

39:58

sick. Now, Also,

40:01

before the lockdown, I might

40:04

have been very fit, but it took me a

40:06

long time to get that fitness because,

40:09

again, I'd had a sort of like a major

40:11

sort of about 2017 after my father

40:15

died, I'd been sort of like a

40:17

long-term carer for him. And

40:21

I tried to get myself back to

40:23

work again and I

40:25

wanted to join them. I'm joined

40:27

to Learn Direct to do my

40:29

maths, but that really was ridiculous.

40:31

It was like post office scam.

40:34

The IT system was absolutely useless, so

40:37

I couldn't get my maths. Can

40:39

I ask you this because it sounds like a

40:41

complicated story and we're very little time.

40:45

It is, sorry, it is. No, please don't apologise.

40:47

I never apologise. Don't call up. I'm always grateful

40:49

that you called up. Thank you. But

40:51

what should the government do? I mean, just for

40:53

the sentence, Leslie. Never

40:56

ever go and have a lockdown.

40:58

The lockdown was a complete failure.

41:00

If they'd had done a sort of like

41:03

a sort of herd immunity,

41:05

that would have been brilliant. And also

41:07

really think about sort of the Learn

41:09

Direct IT math scheme was rubbish. It

41:11

was supposed to help people get back

41:14

into work, but it was awful. It

41:16

didn't. OK, Leslie, thank you. Mary

41:19

Parks is calling us from

41:21

Devon. Hello, Mary. Hello. I

41:24

would like to defend the economically

41:26

inactive who aren't any sort

41:29

of drain on society because

41:33

I think we give to society.

41:35

I've been economically inactive since 1988

41:38

when I stopped full time work

41:40

to bring up our children. And

41:43

then once they went back

41:46

to school, I volunteered in all sorts

41:48

of areas. And I

41:50

just feel that there's a lot of pressure.

41:52

People are looked down on these days

41:54

for being economically inactive, but I'm not

41:56

a drain on society. haven't

42:01

been. So a recalibration

42:03

would be good, you know, to not

42:05

just say if you're economically inactive you're

42:07

not helping? Yes, yes. I

42:09

think that so many involuntary organisations

42:11

are struggling these days to keep

42:13

going because they don't have enough

42:16

fit, healthy people to take on the roles

42:18

that are needed, the care

42:21

of neighbours and, you know, just

42:23

being there for neighbours and other

42:25

people who aren't able to always

42:27

look after themselves. It's an interesting

42:30

point and happy to give you

42:32

the time to make it. We've got a minute

42:34

left. Emma Carrick Smith from

42:36

Norfolk, can you squish the point

42:38

into a minute? Oh I can

42:41

squish it in all right, yes. It's

42:43

not my husband's really. He

42:45

was, man and boy worked for

42:47

a company in London, a Japanese

42:49

bank for 33 years and

42:51

was made redundant last year and

42:55

he has not been able to find another

42:57

job. He has years,

42:59

reams of experience and knowledge and

43:03

it's all kicked into the dust.

43:07

So I mean he's experienced, he's done something and,

43:09

you know, he's willing but no, just no work

43:11

around. Oh fuck, he's willing. He wants

43:13

a job like you would

43:16

not believe but they're not

43:18

interested. Listen that was

43:20

some mighty good squishing Emma and I'm very

43:22

grateful that you did. Thank you for all of

43:24

your calls today, just a couple of texts

43:26

to end in the last 10 seconds. What's the

43:29

point of working if you're underpaid and undervalued?

43:31

We've watched what jobs have done to our parents,

43:33

how it broke them. I don't dream of

43:35

work, I dream of living, says

43:37

this caller. So we'll come back to this

43:39

subject. Till then, have a nice day.