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Bimmoron and today's guest we've got Dwayne Patterson. Dwayne, how

1:50

are you? Yeah, I'm okay,

1:52

you know, and thank you

1:54

for allowing me the opportunity as well. I would

1:57

just like to say as well, first and foremost, the other

1:59

day, I'm going to be doing a video As-salamu alaykum to

2:01

my Muslim brothers and peace and universal love

2:04

for the rest of humanity and for the rest of

2:06

my friends as well I would

2:08

also like to say as well. I'd like to

2:10

thank you. I would like to Thank

2:13

Christian from Aartiyan and I would like

2:15

to thank young spray as well You

2:17

were the free that kind of reached

2:20

out to me when nobody really wanted to touch me

2:22

Because it was kind of like I was like a

2:24

to be subject So I

2:26

just like to thank you as well. I'm dedicated

2:29

a man who a lot of people would be

2:31

surprised that you're saying thank you and Speaking

2:34

religion from a man who's done double shootings

2:36

who spent nearly 30 years in prison From

2:40

a man who was wild back in a day

2:42

to then trying to make changes you're out now

2:44

after Nearly 24 years like

2:46

it's a long time things have changed just

2:48

over the last five years never mean 20

2:50

So it's good that you're actually sitting here

2:52

now seeing the world about differently But

2:54

before we get into all the netty-gritty Let's

2:56

go right back to the start just to get about

2:58

understanding about you. Where do you grew up? How it

3:01

all began? Okay, so I

3:03

actually grew up in South London. I originally

3:05

come from Clapping Junction then

3:09

Eventually from Clapping Junction. I actually moved

3:12

to ones of fraud. So that is

3:14

actually Patmore State What

3:16

were you like at school? To

3:19

be fair on what the teachers say and from what

3:21

the records actually state as well They said that I

3:24

was highly intelligent. But one of the

3:26

problems that I was always succumbing to was

3:28

this arm My

3:31

ability sometimes not to get along with

3:33

other children, so I was constantly in

3:35

fights Now

3:37

now looking back I

3:40

understood the reasons why I got into so many

3:42

fights as well I was always a

3:44

person as well that I always had a sense

3:47

of General

3:49

outcome justice. So when

3:51

I believe that there was levels of social

3:54

injustices, I felt that I needed to Talk

3:57

out against that if that makes

3:59

sense And so I

4:01

think that was some of the problems that

4:04

actually occurred. What about family

4:06

life? Mom, dad, brothers, sisters? Oh

4:08

yeah, it was nice. My parents had me

4:11

at a young age. So I

4:13

lived obviously with my mom, but she was

4:15

still at school age. So

4:18

I was with my grandmother. In

4:20

the Caribbean culture as well, your grandmother is

4:22

kind of like the matriarch. And

4:25

yeah, my father as well was young

4:27

as well. My grandparents again, the grandmother,

4:29

matriarch, it was good. My

4:31

father, he had a company

4:33

in painting and decorating, and

4:35

my mother was a seamstress, and she worked in

4:37

central London. So I can't

4:39

say that I was dragged up. I have nine

4:43

sisters and

4:45

five brothers. None of them has ever

4:48

been in trouble with the law. So,

4:51

um, you made that for that? You

4:54

made that for the below. I don't really

4:56

think so. I know where

4:58

it started though. You know, like sometimes when you,

5:00

you know, you converse with many individuals and

5:03

they sometimes struggle to understand where the trigger

5:05

point was. For me, I

5:07

knew where the catalyst was. What was that? When

5:10

I was roughly about 10 years of

5:13

age, my mom used

5:15

to, I moved to Patmore. And

5:17

at the time I didn't know, there was kind

5:19

of like little rivalries. Because Patmore

5:21

at the time when I was younger,

5:23

it was like Switzerland. So

5:26

you would have many other estates that

5:28

would actually come into Patmore itself. So

5:31

you would have like people from Brixton, Stockwell, they all seemed

5:33

to get along. But for some

5:35

reason they had a version for Clapham Junction, and

5:38

I was originally from Clapham Junction. So

5:41

what actually happened was, there was a group of, you

5:43

know, other young kids that

5:45

didn't like me. And I would always

5:47

try to find ways of avoiding them. To

5:53

unfortunately, one day they

5:56

spotted me. They asked

5:58

me to relinquish my jacket

6:01

I refused and I

6:04

ended up being set up on. At

6:07

the time I never understood because I've

6:10

always seen adults as

6:12

beam protectors so

6:14

when I was screaming for help no

6:17

one was helping but being an adult now

6:19

I can understand that some

6:21

adults were probably scared because there was so

6:24

many there was so many young people involved

6:27

they probably didn't want to get injured and hurt

6:29

and so forth and the way society is but

6:32

at that time you see them as the protectors and

6:34

they're not helping you and so

6:36

when my mom took me to the hospital I turned around I

6:38

said to my mom it will never happen to me again and

6:43

that was the catalyst for things

6:45

to start so in my time

6:47

especially we were always told to you go

6:49

for the biggest one you go for

6:51

the ringleader so obviously

6:54

I approached that the person

6:56

who I considered to be the ringleader with

6:58

a rounders bat and then

7:00

from there it altered my life

7:04

in that sense

7:06

I gained the respect of

7:09

the estate and then I went

7:11

on to neighboring estates and I

7:13

used to just constantly fight. How

7:16

was that feeling the first time you gave

7:18

someone a bit of violence back? To

7:21

be fair even

7:25

though I was young and I had a primitive way

7:27

of thinking I look back now and I realized that

7:30

that allowed me then to develop an appetite for blood

7:34

so I thought okay

7:36

so this is how I can get my message

7:38

across this is how you communicate so

7:41

I communicated with extreme

7:44

violence. Did you feel

7:46

as if you are taking control or did you feel

7:48

of control? I felt

7:50

both. So

7:53

sometimes obviously you

7:55

feel that you're in control of a situation but sometimes

7:57

you can feel out of control of a situation as

7:59

well because how it leads you into.

8:03

But yeah, I just felt that I needed to make

8:05

a stance. That's what we say.

8:07

I rather, you know, dye my feet and live on

8:09

my knees. And I had enough. You

8:12

know, they call it the fight and flight syndrome,

8:15

but it's also freeze. So I

8:17

knew by flight, it

8:20

would just prolong my suffering. I

8:23

knew that freeze, I would just become an

8:25

easy target. So I knew I only

8:27

had one option and that was the actual fact. When

8:30

did it start getting out of control? From using

8:32

a round just back to then using tools to

8:34

then using blades or age? I

8:38

think, so

8:44

I would roughly say maybe

8:50

about 12. Still

8:52

young. Still young, yeah. So now kids

8:55

have, I think they were like butterfly

8:57

knives and little lock knives and

8:59

things like that. So

9:01

I think it developed. I think

9:03

it developed in that way that

9:05

then obviously I need to level

9:08

up. So how do you level up by

9:12

carrying what they are also carry making

9:14

sure that I don't become that victim again being

9:17

stumped upon, being kicked upon, calling

9:19

for help and there's nobody to help. I

9:22

saw that the world was a rare cruel place

9:24

and only the strong survive. It was survival of

9:26

the fittest, which now has

9:28

been an adult. I know it's just

9:30

a mere justification for destroying and oppressing

9:33

people much weaker than ourselves. But

9:35

at that time, I didn't see it like that. When

9:38

did you done a five stretch? Was that the way

9:40

you went to a boss? So what was it you

9:42

done? Yeah, so I was a bit too young because

9:44

it was a sensitive case. So

9:47

obviously I amputated another young

9:49

kid's finger. So

9:53

I went to secure units first. So

9:56

I went to Stanford house. I went to Orchard

9:58

Lodge and I also went to. Vinnie

10:00

Green but because of my

10:02

behavior again it's always history repeating itself with

10:04

my fights and everything as soon as I

10:06

hit 15 They were

10:09

happy and relieved Now

10:11

you're going to film them So

10:14

that was kind of that was kind of the

10:16

pattern. What was it like? Chomp someone's

10:18

finger off To

10:22

be fair I've been so young because I was 13 It's

10:26

you're not understanding you're not at the understanding the magnitude

10:28

of what you've actually done Now

10:30

looking back especially as an adult

10:33

as well. It's a parents worst

10:35

nightmare I'm not a

10:37

parent, but I'm an uncle I'm

10:40

you know, I'm older brother and soulful fan. It's

10:42

just horrendous that But

10:45

unfortunately being

10:47

young you don't sometimes actually

10:52

How can I how can I articulate this See

10:55

the repercussions It's something that

10:57

my father always said to me. He said his son

10:59

It's not the mistakes that you have to worry about

11:02

but it's the consequences that come with the mistakes What

11:05

was the reason for chop new finger off? So

11:07

with this again, it comes down

11:09

to groups dynamics and not like in

11:12

the particular group I can't

11:14

say per se that that young person

11:16

done anything Directly towards

11:18

me, but it's just the whole of

11:20

who was connected with I didn't

11:22

like So I was just making a

11:24

statement and it's it's bad

11:26

It's horrendous and my heart goes

11:29

out to you know, the young person grown

11:31

man now and he's family and soulful And

11:34

I hope I don't you know Reinvoking

11:36

feelings Talking about this. Yeah

11:38

fair play. Obviously you've changed your whole life the

11:40

way you see things I miss you've done as

11:42

well as nice It might make me difficult speaking

11:44

about because you don't want to be in here

11:47

But not glorifying that but it's still your story

11:49

for people to understand the shit that you were

11:51

actually involved into the shit That you're actually doing

11:53

now the way you speak the way you present

11:55

yourself that people can change So

11:57

you end up getting the five. What was that feeling?

11:59

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No purchase necessary. Oh, wow. I

13:06

was surprised. The whole kind of dynamics was different.

13:10

Like again, this was like... It felt

13:12

like another failure for me again. Because

13:15

you always look at adults as being

13:17

kind, being generous, being

13:20

your protectors. But I saw a lot of

13:23

them actually being abusers. For example,

13:25

as well, we know that sometimes children can

13:27

be mischievous. But

13:29

what they actually... How they actually resolve situations

13:31

as well was by punching you in your

13:33

stomach. Twisting your arm back. So

13:36

like, you know, it almost seemed like...

13:38

It was like... Say the masochist. Like

13:41

they wanted you to feel pain just for you to

13:43

scream and so forth. They were getting like a thrill

13:45

out of... Out of pulling your

13:47

neck back and so forth. And your child.

13:49

Technically your child. Your kid. So

13:52

I then realized that nobody really

13:54

cares. So I'm not gonna care. So

13:57

I hardened to that notion. So that few jafari...

14:02

101% what was a lot of kids like you ever did

14:04

you see the fear and name or was everybody the kind

14:06

of lost a lot of souls that's

14:09

how I saw it I saw that everybody was

14:11

trying to play

14:13

their position on the field everyone was trying to

14:17

you know somebody everyone was trying to

14:19

become someone and they

14:21

fought by becoming that you know but

14:23

coming a person was by implementing

14:27

extreme violence or being aggressive because

14:30

when you're younger that's what you look to and

14:32

I always remember I wish you to see because it

14:35

was funny I used to have this weird relationship with

14:37

my father when I was younger I never really understood

14:39

my father's methods I used to think he was soft

14:42

because he was so calm like for example

14:44

if we had to if he took me

14:46

to the school like so there's an instant

14:48

so the parents are there my father my

14:51

parents are there my mother my father and

14:54

the parents are irated so sometimes

14:57

as you know because the other

15:00

parents son has lost now the father wants

15:02

to take it upon himself that why don't

15:04

me and you have one and my father

15:06

was always calm and I

15:08

remember once what he said to you on he

15:11

said to one gentleman as well he

15:13

says sir I don't want to

15:15

fight you why why do we want to fight

15:17

for we know how temperamental children are they

15:19

will fight today but they'll be friends tomorrow how silly

15:22

would we be if we went outside now and was

15:24

rolling up and down and at that time I

15:27

I saw it now I see him as a great diffuser

15:29

but at that time I thought no I should

15:32

be like my other friend's father that just punches

15:34

people in the mouth and you know you just

15:36

resolve situations like that but now at

15:38

this age no disrespect to my friend seeing his

15:40

father now that has gone in and out of

15:43

prison got no stable job um

15:45

you know the kids are not even respecting him

15:48

no more because they're saying that listen you're no

15:50

guy you're you know we're not listening to

15:52

you so now you can see and

15:54

where that my father's got respect people

15:57

still acknowledge my father my

15:59

father's almost He's been

16:01

sick, he's been ill and he's almost died

16:03

three times and so many people have

16:05

been to his bedside because of the amount of love

16:07

that he's generated. So

16:09

he does close the show. So then I said I

16:11

want to implement those steps as well. Just be a nice

16:14

person. Yeah, the peaceful man's a strong man. Peaceful

16:16

man's a warrior but you grew up in an environment

16:18

where you think people shoot and use them too, shoot

16:20

and stab him. You think that I want to be

16:22

like them. Not realizing it's the weak man. The

16:25

angry man's the weak man. The angry ones

16:27

are soft man because they're battling the bully.

16:29

The people who destroy lives and bully lives

16:31

because they're broken. It's not necessarily the bad

16:33

people. They just do bad shit because

16:35

they feel as if it protects them from people

16:38

seeing right through who they are. And

16:40

this happens through the whole wide world. They're

16:42

like, it's fucking mad that people feel

16:45

a raging anger. It's a weakness that

16:47

people have and triggers that people

16:49

are easily manipulated to them pushed to do bad

16:52

stuff even though it's

16:54

just making them worse because the conscious mind is

16:56

a powerful tool. The brain is such a powerful

16:58

tool when you do bad shit. No matter how

17:00

tough we think we are. We'll fucking

17:02

surprise you in 10, 20, 50 years. It'll

17:05

throw every emotion that you've blocked and not faced

17:07

and then that's when it comes to a head.

17:09

I had an undercover cop on just before you came in.

17:13

Very strong man, done his job but

17:15

blocked all his pain and abuse out as a kid. And

17:18

then in ages in his 50s he ended up

17:20

in a nervous breakdown, ended up in a mental

17:22

institute, white padded cell because he blocked out all

17:25

his feelings and emotions. And

17:27

as men that's why we struggle. We don't speak. We

17:29

bottle shit out. We pretend. Always say

17:31

it with the great pretenders. We all

17:33

act like a gateway. We all act as if we

17:35

ask something but nobody sees us at night when we're

17:38

scared of them pretending.

17:40

It's fucking mad. So you're in

17:42

there, what's the worst thing you've

17:44

seen while going through the

17:46

kind of yos? Oh, so yos. I

17:50

think I

17:57

wouldn't really. I

17:59

Think later on. The years when I can actually

18:01

describe some the worst things but I

18:03

think it was just loss of fights.

18:05

I think it is ruthless Leia com

18:07

some people being terrorized like for out

18:09

the whole sentence and I just for

18:11

that. It's not going to be me. And

18:15

I understood. It was the way

18:17

I do. we actually describe young

18:19

offenders. It was like the. Baby.

18:23

Fan Club: So

18:25

baby Fight Club in the sense of that. You.

18:28

Know sometimes the. Though

18:31

the had a duty of care also

18:33

encourage you to the also results situations

18:35

pipe dream violence. So actually

18:38

happens is that you become condition to that.

18:40

We'll think him. And. Then you're

18:42

thinking that it's okay once you're out. that way

18:44

these somebody says something rude and when I can

18:46

do to punch me face. Because. You

18:48

been conditioned to think that we. Cause.

18:51

Lots people pose a question to me by

18:53

you are you know this is your second

18:55

time with incarceration the first time so you

18:57

didn't Clearly you've not done. But. What

18:59

they fail to understand as well. That.

19:01

The first times for seen the early nineties is

19:03

what those no such thing as rehabilitative courses. It

19:06

was based on do your time. Is.

19:08

Like the Victorian Era, Do

19:10

your time. And then your

19:12

back health. Especially being so young you

19:15

conditions I member. they used to allow you to

19:17

go to the gym. And have fights

19:19

and punch ups and east say yeah we do

19:21

for even officers were queen a little bit some

19:23

oh he's gonna win. So

19:25

you grew up, hardens, you grew up.

19:28

Minds condition in that sense. Okay, so this

19:30

is how I'm going to resolve the situation.

19:33

Does. Child abuse. Has

19:35

to be a slate. That's why the

19:37

system's fucked. The don't help people with

19:40

us people state by thanks is older

19:42

know there's no. Really?

19:44

Help. People can can move change a flame

19:46

example but the majority end up back endings

19:48

over the percent and as a sign saying

19:51

because later see the not bad just about

19:53

shut because it's only fucking know when she

19:55

actually can get that room or the rapper

19:57

inspiration you go If he can change I

19:59

can change. That was all about was

20:01

leaving the fit plans for people to

20:03

then follow and go. I'm gonna do

20:05

the same as not enough inspiration for

20:07

me as of the country. ended up

20:10

doing face stiff ways. did you go

20:12

eighteen seat on the phone? Vice is

20:14

that the question of violence as yes

20:16

I'm no sense to Eichel. Convicted at

20:18

sixteen I got commit to that naive

20:20

arm in ninety five was did they

20:23

gave me a five years but that

20:25

was extreme if you really think about

20:27

considering my age considering the time. As

20:29

any good faith. Is then

20:32

on taking a consideration amount of time.

20:34

Died on by squandered it. So

20:37

what happened was when I was in Stump

20:39

says when I was at Stamford House I

20:41

went into secure plot access. I was in

20:43

the kind of Open Plus concert house. Which

20:46

I den A splendid I was

20:48

and will people my article on

20:50

the run for that free month.

20:52

Or so, maybe a few months I

20:55

can't really completed. During

20:57

that time I also committed

20:59

another sense. Whilst. They

21:01

were looking for me which was

21:03

at a time I think they

21:06

call it known to typical what

21:08

he could steaming. By. The

21:10

time we could have been a happy so

21:12

that was a group of kids you jump

21:14

over like to build a society, jump of

21:16

the counters and stuff as much money, don't

21:18

your trousers and so forth as you can

21:21

and basically run out. I.

21:23

Got also like a free and a half years to

21:25

run concurrent with my five years. Supposedly.

21:29

Com a know at what did you feel. You

21:31

would I mind as you feel your get

21:33

respect because you had that violence and you

21:35

know it was a sesame. weird because you

21:37

have to was a remember prayer before that.

21:40

I was use the. Been.

21:42

Around my mother. Like. You

21:45

know, mother and father the same in all. Day

21:48

to day I your guardian. The

21:51

deadly chiefly says now they say

21:54

that I'm actually. i'm

21:56

actually a young adults saturday muscle

21:58

flexing not forms and It

22:01

was, yeah, so it was strange. It

22:04

is a massive gulf for a young

22:06

person and coming out and

22:09

the world has kind of changed and

22:11

I just felt, it felt awkward. But

22:13

the thing that upset me the most

22:15

was that how I perceive that society

22:17

doesn't really give you a second chance.

22:20

Because what actually happened was, which was my

22:22

trigger point in me continuing or moving

22:25

in different degrees of dysfunctional behavior was

22:29

I was applying

22:31

for bank accounts. So obviously

22:33

I knew that that was the thing I've never had up

22:35

to now. I've never had a debit

22:38

card or credit card. So

22:40

the first time out, they basically,

22:44

they basically denied me. And

22:48

I was thinking, and I remember

22:50

the time when I got arrested for the

22:52

steaming that they believed that I've done so

22:54

many and I've actually got away with it.

22:56

So they wanted me to do something called like, they call

22:58

it clear up. So you just

23:00

point them in the right direction of

23:03

like some of the other crimes of

23:05

the building societies and things that you've

23:07

done and they can put that

23:09

down. They can mark it down as self cases.

23:11

I said, no, I'm not doing that. So

23:15

when I came out, the backlash of the banks and

23:17

so forth, I wouldn't get in no account. They would

23:19

just all deny me. So I

23:21

remember once having a conversation with my father and

23:24

he was like, son, just take your time.

23:26

He's got a very soft voice and he

23:29

was like, son, take your time. Just in

23:31

due course. I'm thinking I'm not listening to that. I'm

23:37

definitely not listening to that. So then I

23:39

just continued. I just said,

23:41

you know what? The

23:44

battle lines have been drawn.

23:46

This is it. I'm going all out.

23:50

How was that for your mum and dad? Your

23:52

dad soft spoken, kind of leads by example by

23:54

his presence not realizing that was a strength. But

23:57

how was that when your mum and dad are

23:59

coming to you? visit you did you just block

24:01

all that out where you know you were

24:03

letting them down and breaking their heart because nobody else

24:05

in the family was causing trouble? Yeah

24:08

especially my mother

24:11

it's different we can talk about fathers

24:13

as well and I'm not trying

24:15

to I'm not trying to underestimate the

24:17

power of the love that father has for

24:19

his child but you can

24:21

we can never imagine from

24:24

a from a female's perspective as well you

24:26

carry a child for nine months you

24:29

give birth to that child you you

24:31

have the very best intentions for that child

24:34

you try to provide the best that you

24:37

can for that child and

24:39

all that child is doing is just causing you

24:41

heartache and pain so for

24:43

me definitely that still haunts me yeah

24:45

because people need to realize I believe women

24:47

are the center of the universe the

24:50

unit the world the universe whatever has revolved

24:52

around women the way they carry a child

24:55

the way that energy changes the way they

24:57

can feed the baby the way

25:00

the nutrients and stem cells come from

25:02

the umbilical cord that's fucking mind-blowing how

25:05

listen you need men and women need each other men

25:07

need to be masculine of course we need to provide

25:10

and protect but women need to nut child women need

25:12

to show love and because men are sensitive men

25:14

don't know how to love I still don't know if I've

25:16

ever been in love and that's fucked up and I've

25:18

had my relationships you know I mean I've got kids but I

25:20

don't know what the feeling is

25:23

to truly feel fucking love and it's

25:25

the most purest form of

25:27

anything on this planet and that's why a

25:29

woman and I assure you don't have the

25:31

purest form of love men

25:33

with weird beans are very I

25:36

don't know what pretty fucking pretty

25:39

easy is where we're pretty fucking but

25:42

we're still confused men I've heard so many

25:44

people nobody knows what the fuck is happening

25:47

I'm glad that you said that though because

25:50

look first and foremost is this is not a religious

25:52

sermon but I'm glad that you actually

25:54

mentioned this and you touched upon this because in my

25:56

Quran actually read it as well it says men were

25:58

created weak So

26:01

sometimes we consider strength because of

26:03

our physical abilities

26:05

for things. But what

26:07

about mentally? What about spiritually? So you

26:09

are correct as well. We are. We were

26:12

created weak. Yeah, look when a man gets

26:14

a flu. I think the fucking

26:16

world is over. Do you know what I mean?

26:18

The mental health is sort of... What does that

26:20

tell you about women? They're stronger.

26:23

And Jordan Peterson used to say, and I

26:25

thought it was amazing when he says it,

26:27

he Jordan Peterson says, the majority men

26:29

are in prison, the majority men are homeless,

26:32

the majority men work in building

26:34

sites, the majority men are suicidal, the

26:36

majority men fight in wars, the majority men are in prison.

26:39

What does that tell you about women? It means women are

26:41

smarter. They don't fucking

26:43

do that shit. We choose to

26:45

do it. We don't need to do it

26:47

either. So that tells you that men make

26:49

bad choices and women make better choices and

26:51

more opinion. No, you're right.

26:54

I just think the

26:56

world is confused. I think everybody's angry, angry

26:58

at each other, feminine, masculine. Men

27:00

are feminine as well. We men need the masculine energy.

27:03

We do need to lead by the front men, build

27:05

the world, women create it. I agree. So

27:07

you get out what you're thinking then. Is

27:10

it just straight back to business, violence? So obviously

27:13

there's a whole different shift. So

27:16

now the whole dynamic exchange. So you know

27:18

when sometimes, you know, I've listened to some

27:20

of your podcasts as well, and no disrespect

27:22

to anybody. I'm not here to criticize anyone.

27:25

But you know, sometimes they, I call

27:28

them raconteurs, skill storytellers, in the sense

27:30

of that, yeah, I

27:34

stepped back out and then all of a sudden

27:36

everybody was around me and I was that man.

27:38

It doesn't work like that. As

27:41

you know already, you know, I'm good friends with Lou

27:43

and so forth. Yeah, sure. Lou Clark as well. Yeah,

27:45

of course, definitely. A hundred and one percent. And that

27:47

whole dynamic, so their age group, do you honestly think

27:49

that as much as they may have respect for me,

27:51

that I can just come out and just thinking that,

27:53

yeah, well, you are going to be working for me

27:55

and this and that. It's not going to happen. I

27:57

will end up a victim very quickly. The

28:00

whole dynamics has changed. So what I needed

28:02

to do was understand the whole kind of

28:04

dynamics again. Okay. So

28:06

what role, where's my positioning and

28:09

then from there. So,

28:11

um, I realized that the group dynamics

28:13

have changed now. People have got older,

28:16

they accumulate more money. So

28:18

the groups are smaller now. The only time that you're

28:20

in large groups is that you're showing off your wealth.

28:23

So in the sense of that, if you're going

28:25

to the Coliseum, if you're going partying and so

28:27

forth, then everyone will meet up. People have nice

28:29

cars, jewelry, and so forth. But usually

28:31

your core group of the day and the people

28:33

that you're usually conspiring with are

28:35

very small groups. And

28:39

then basically from

28:41

there, um,

28:44

I also understood that dynamics have changed

28:46

as well. Like

28:48

for example, it before

28:51

it was fist fights, but now

28:53

it's a spaghetti Western. Who draws

28:55

first wins. So they're

28:57

saying that way there, you bring your fist to

28:59

a gunfight. They're laughing at you. So you need

29:01

to level up. So then I thought,

29:03

okay, I'm going to go and get myself one.

29:06

And so that's how things start. Why did you

29:08

become so calculated figuring out your

29:11

move in your position? I didn't even

29:13

see it like that. I saw it as survival. I

29:16

thought if you, if you snooze, you

29:18

lose. It was

29:20

just like, I saw things. I saw things

29:22

at the time as chest boxing. So

29:24

what we mean by chest boxing. If you look at the position

29:27

of a chess board as well, you

29:29

actually see like, um, offensive

29:31

defensive. So offensive is plain

29:33

action over, um, of attack

29:35

and defensive is resistance to

29:37

attack. And I had enough

29:39

of being in a defensive position. I wanted to

29:41

be in an offensive position. Does

29:43

that make sense? So this

29:46

is what we said that, okay, this is what I'm going to

29:48

do. I mean, is

29:50

that when you're able to start to go into

29:52

the series stuff? Yeah. That's correct. And

29:56

how long were you out for, for the

29:58

five years to the 20. You

30:00

know, just two years. I'm

30:03

laughing because I was fucked up and that. Just

30:07

two years. And

30:10

how was life? What age were you then? 18,

30:12

19? I was 20. So

30:14

yeah, all my kind of criminal activities, I was 18, 19, 20.

30:18

I'm back in prison. Yeah. Did anybody ever say

30:20

to you, listen, get your shit together? At that

30:22

age, you never listen anyway, but was there anybody,

30:24

any of your older's, any uncle's? Yeah,

30:27

I've had a lot. Like my

30:30

uncle, my uncle Ozzy, my

30:32

uncle Floyd, my aunties, you

30:35

know, it was, there were so many

30:38

people. It's like, they've all,

30:40

I've lived with all, at

30:42

one stage in my life, I've lived

30:44

with all my uncles and aunties and

30:46

so forth. Even my auntie, Adrena, that

30:48

lived in Creighton and I was with,

30:51

I was living in the same room as

30:53

my cousin, Smith and so

30:55

forth. So growing up there

30:57

and so everybody played a

30:59

part in trying to help me. And I can't,

31:02

that's one thing that I can't criticize my family.

31:05

And sometimes I feel remorseful as well,

31:07

because I felt that I've

31:10

taken a lot from my siblings as well, because

31:13

everybody was so focused on me, even my

31:15

cousins as well. I have to apologize because

31:18

everybody was focused on helping me, even

31:20

my uncles and aunties, which is very strange. Like

31:23

with most people, how the

31:26

world is today, it

31:28

weren't like that in my times, it took a

31:31

village to raise a child, even

31:33

friends and family and so forth. So

31:38

how do you think if you grew up in another place, do

31:40

you think you'd have been different? Or do

31:42

you think you always had that in you? I think I

31:44

always had that in me. I tell you

31:46

the reasons why my siblings came from the

31:48

same place. They never, they've gone

31:50

through certain trials and tribulations. It's

31:53

how you interpret a situation. And it's funny

31:56

that you mention that as well, because when

31:58

I was also studying. in prison

32:01

as well social science to my degree. I

32:04

remember that there was a study

32:07

on regards to two brothers and

32:11

if my memory serves me correctly I think

32:13

they might have been twins. Yeah that was

32:15

an alcoholic? Yeah that's correct. Yeah yeah yeah

32:18

one became an alcoholic one never touched it

32:20

because you hated the smell of it. I

32:22

spoke about that last podcast, that's so stranger.

32:24

So it comes down to how you interpret

32:26

a situation as well and for me it

32:29

just always came back to being that

32:31

victim not allowing that to happen and

32:34

I just I don't know it it's a horrible

32:36

feeling not being in control. Being

32:38

in control in the sense of somebody else

32:40

is dictating for you

32:43

so they're saying that we can do we

32:45

feel that we can do what we want

32:47

to do to you at any time and

32:49

there's nobody but there's nobody to help you

32:52

even though you thought that you were safe

32:54

because you was amongst adults we're letting you

32:56

know that you're not safe so I said

32:58

that okay I need to protect myself. Is

33:01

that ego applied? I

33:05

think at that age at that time I would

33:07

say it was protection but now at

33:10

this age of course because we know

33:13

that being adults and

33:15

our minds of developers well there's

33:18

definitely 101% different alternatives as

33:21

well of resolving situations. So

33:24

the two years you were out what were you

33:26

like then were you like who's canon? Yeah very.

33:28

Do you think it was only a matter

33:30

of time before you ended up dead or in prison anyway?

33:32

100% and it was kind of sad as well because me

33:34

my father had a heart to heart and

33:37

he said son there was only two ways

33:39

you was gonna go and I and

33:41

I said and he said look I'm sorry I'm gonna say

33:43

something to you and my prayer

33:46

came correct it was

33:48

either death or imprisonment and God loved

33:50

you and he gave you imprisonment. Saved

33:54

your life. God saved my life.

33:56

Yeah that's strange. changed

34:00

then you've got a shooter and you're blasted

34:02

to guys like what was it what was

34:04

the thought process that night was that

34:06

I lead up to something or was that just and

34:09

think now

34:11

was leading up we lived we need to be

34:13

honest here as well see one

34:15

thing that I've always learned as well and I've been taught

34:17

as well we speak the truth even if it's against ourselves

34:20

as well we were predators so

34:23

obviously the way that we looked at

34:25

things as well why would society care

34:27

for when they're

34:30

also involved in what we're involved in so

34:32

it doesn't matter we're not hurt we're not

34:34

hurting civilians this

34:36

is what we've all signed up to this is

34:38

an occupational hazard so

34:40

the way that and when I got the

34:43

phone call and I said that these individuals

34:45

were dealing with illegal activity allegedly my

34:48

arm obviously

34:50

my my protocol

34:53

was okay

34:55

we're gonna go and obtain what

34:57

they have and they

35:00

can't say nothing about it because they also involved

35:02

in what we're involved in but

35:06

then I don't

35:08

know it's this kind of warped this

35:10

warped understanding that we also have

35:14

and one of the I know this might be alarming

35:16

to the public as well I'm gonna say next we

35:19

had a system in place as well that if

35:21

you show you're gonna use it there's

35:23

no point in talking about something and waving it around if you're

35:25

not gonna use it so that's why

35:28

I basically done I produce the

35:30

firearm and I shot them both and

35:32

I thank God that they survived but

35:35

because of the severity basically

35:38

of the shooting I

35:40

was given I know we're gonna get to that but

35:44

um there was a lot

35:46

of other it weren't planned

35:48

properly because we weren't expecting the backlash

35:50

in that sense again is what I

35:53

said to you you know

35:55

criminal against criminal you expect a certain

35:57

code of conduct you

35:59

know you expect there's gonna be

36:02

maybe a swift repercussion but not

36:04

actually as what we

36:06

say become the stool pigeon or

36:08

you know to the boys in blue the

36:12

whole dynamics has society and times have

36:14

changed as well and people don't really

36:17

and then there was other aspects as well

36:19

that other innocent people getting actually dragged into

36:21

it so eventually

36:24

I handed myself in after a few days I handed

36:28

myself in and then from there I

36:31

was given a discretionary life

36:33

sentence it seems a bit harsh

36:35

for to attempt murders but again the

36:38

system was but fucked so

36:41

that night you're saying if you've got a gun

36:43

you've got to use it basically you're a pussy

36:45

did you feel that pressure straight away if everything

36:47

that you've done in your life doesn't really mean

36:49

anything because people then think I'm a

36:51

coward and then you feel that emotion you felt with 10

36:53

years old you had to use that no

36:55

I was I'm gonna be honest with you I'm gonna speak

36:57

the truth here I would have caused I didn't really care

37:01

so it was one of those we say

37:03

to ourselves already you see how the human

37:06

mind works as well it

37:08

it works by justification we

37:10

justify things so it makes

37:12

it easy for us for example

37:14

as well they are criminals

37:17

they also do bad things so who

37:19

cares in our community you need a

37:22

you need a villain and you need a hero

37:25

I don't mind being that villain because

37:27

I don't care because these people are also

37:29

up to no good so that's how we

37:31

condition our minds in doing the things that

37:33

we do so once you've done that

37:35

you can then go and have a burger and chips

37:37

and soulful when you feel no way it's

37:40

different it's different if it's a villain

37:42

gets hit or innocent person

37:44

or child gets hit and soulful then obviously

37:47

but when it's somebody that has signed up

37:49

what you claim to sign up but not

37:51

understanding the ramifications that affect that you're gonna

37:53

have not only on

37:56

that victim but their families

37:58

they also just to survive in

38:00

this concrete jungle as well will give you

38:03

the right to even try to take that

38:05

person's life because you're thinking that they're doing

38:07

something wrong and even if they're

38:09

doing something wrong does it justify the

38:11

level of violence the

38:14

suppression oppression and depression that

38:16

one's implementing so yeah

38:18

and the ripple effect it has it's like a

38:20

soldier going to war killing people there's

38:23

women children men getting killed and

38:25

you hear them listen there's so there's it's just

38:27

the way there shouldn't be wars all war is

38:29

murder in my eyes but it's just the way

38:31

the world works so there's soldiers and that's just

38:33

the way whoever controls it came in a period

38:36

the masses to then go and do

38:38

something did you feel as if that was your mindset

38:40

that was your duty because it's criminal v criminal everybody

38:42

signed up for that so it

38:45

made it easier yeah definitely and

38:47

we're fledgling we're fled on fledging

38:49

things so what we're we're

38:51

trying to make our mark in the world as well you

38:54

know let's be honest here because i'm not gonna hear

38:56

spin you a tell as well to say that i

38:59

was this multi-millionaire i was doing this no how

39:01

could i be when i was 18 years of

39:03

age you're the

39:05

start enough let's be

39:07

honest but we done well considering our

39:09

age group and what we were doing

39:11

but we were still young there was

39:13

much established of a

39:16

gentleman at the time but people still

39:18

respected and especially the particular

39:20

estate and ones were thrown and there's hundreds

39:22

of estates and the kind of connecting the

39:24

dots and so forth but

39:27

yeah we were we were young sometimes

39:29

as well being so young you have

39:31

that high levels of testosterone um

39:34

you you have this um

39:39

inflated protective

39:43

layer on you know it's not

39:46

a true reflection because you're young

39:48

you know you don't really think

39:50

you're more reactive and

39:52

you don't understand fully the

39:54

repercussions which i'm going to

39:56

what gun was that um i

39:59

think it was a free fight If I

40:01

can, if my memory serves me correctly. What was it feeling

40:03

like after you showed up to people? Again

40:05

were you just numb to it? Just one of

40:07

those things that we're getting about getting chaps and

40:09

just shut off? It is because when you live

40:11

a particular lifestyle, remember I was out for two

40:14

years, so when you're living a

40:16

particular lifestyle and you become accustomed to

40:18

a certain way of life as well,

40:20

you get desensitized. Why did

40:22

you hand yourself in? There

40:24

was a few things. There was also

40:27

a young lady, she

40:29

was no way connected, I'm going

40:32

to say this again, but she was also

40:34

taken into the police station as well. I

40:38

must admit though, I have to congratulate her as well

40:40

because she stood firm in that

40:43

sense but they were

40:45

threatening her because she's got a

40:48

child and everything else as well. When

40:53

I was, the person that

40:55

I was with, I was deceived by that

40:58

person as well. And

41:03

yeah, I would say that he

41:05

went into things as well which, see

41:08

this is the thing that a lot of young

41:10

people have to also understand as well, that sometimes

41:12

the person that you think is your friend and

41:15

you know, you may throw

41:18

yourself in front of a bullet for,

41:20

might not necessarily be your friend. When

41:24

that's what some people say, when situations

41:26

intensify. So I think

41:28

this is the thing for young people to also reflect on

41:31

as well. And it goes

41:33

to show again, women are stronger than men, that woman

41:35

never broke. She probably says,

41:37

we're going to lose your son, you're going to

41:39

prison, never broke, but yet the fucking, the man

41:41

who you're standing next to, who you take a

41:43

bullet for, who you potentially try to kill people

41:46

for, his arses went, no

41:48

loyalty in that game, especially from men.

41:50

And that's why I always say women are stronger because they

41:53

see the world differently. We feel a shit. Great

41:56

pretenders, top pish, it's

41:59

mad. So you hand yourself

42:01

in, when did you realise they weren't dead? So

42:03

you must be thinking, okay, 10 straight, 10 at

42:05

most, 12, double attempt murder. Yeah,

42:09

you know in our

42:11

minds, in our primitive way of thinking as well,

42:13

I was thinking of, okay, I know I'm going

42:15

to get a sentence, but I

42:17

knew in those times, a gun related murder was like

42:19

something like 20 years. I'm saying that

42:22

I've not killed the individuals, you

42:24

know, with my arrogance as well, I'm

42:26

thinking, who

42:29

cares, they're criminals as well,

42:32

they're probably not going to say anything, if anything,

42:36

I'll probably get a 7 or 8 and then I'm back, then

42:39

I'm going to do exactly what I was

42:41

doing from before. That's my respect. Yeah,

42:43

but even then, I felt that I had that

42:45

respect already, so I weren't really bothered about that,

42:47

it was just about, at the end

42:49

of the day, you have to look at

42:51

your aims and objective. So what

42:54

is your aims and objective of doing this in

42:56

the first place? And with a lot of us,

42:58

we came to the conclusion is to make money. So

43:02

unfortunately, by any means necessary, but it

43:04

was actually to make money. So

43:06

that was always the objective and we should never

43:08

try to stray away from that objective. So

43:11

now that I'm reflecting, I'm looking back and I'm saying that,

43:13

okay, so what is, okay,

43:16

so I'm going to spend some time of

43:18

incarceration, at least I've kept

43:20

on my dignity and integrity and

43:25

then I'm going to go back out

43:27

and I'm going to continue to do what I'm doing.

43:31

On an 8 of that, was

43:34

it to go out and shoot two people,

43:36

kill two people, kill one person, shoot one

43:38

person, what was there? No, basically just to

43:40

obtain what we were told that they had.

43:45

That's all, that's all it was. And it got out

43:48

of hand. It's not even that

43:50

I think they underestimated us because we were young. Yeah,

43:54

you have like, it's like me as well. You can't

43:56

underestimate the young as well. Sometimes you're

43:58

looking at a young man. He's there, he's

44:00

telling me, I know what you have. And

44:03

you're looking at thinking, 18, 19, like, 19, 20, like,

44:07

for a year, do you know who I

44:09

am? I think back then that was kind

44:11

of accepted. Nowadays, I'm more fearful of the

44:13

young young because they're fucking ruthless. You're

44:16

not talking 1920, I'm talking 14, 15, 16. And

44:20

that's scary. There's no respect, there's

44:22

no loyalty for the elders, there's nothing.

44:24

So now it's changed. Now the

44:26

ones who are, you're most fearful about the young

44:29

ones who have got the value on and just

44:31

fucking waiting, 15, 16, it's crazy. It's

44:34

funny that you mentioned that as well because I know I've

44:36

said this before as well, but there was an incident. So

44:40

I was in a, obviously when I was released

44:42

first, I had to go to AP. So

44:45

I'm in this particular area, won't name me, I was in this

44:47

particular area and I'm walking down the road and

44:50

there's a group of kids. There's so

44:52

many of them and they're blocking the road. Now

44:54

in my times as well, yes, we were

44:56

moving in different degrees of dysfunctional behavior, but

44:59

we had respect for our elders, not

45:02

like this, they were blocking the roads and people were just

45:04

trying to. And so

45:07

I'm assessing all this situation. I

45:09

know these kids are not gonna move out of the way. So

45:12

I said, let me give ground. As a

45:14

grown up, I'm old enough to be there

45:16

forever. So let me try to navigate myself,

45:18

make myself small and I'm trying to go

45:20

in between, trying to make

45:22

myself small. Now

45:25

one of them who I identified, he was the

45:27

biggest one who I had identified as the leader,

45:30

he came very close to me, almost touching

45:32

me. Now

45:36

I knew then, I

45:38

can understand that first, they're trying to mark their territory.

45:41

I understand that I've lived a particular lifestyle, but

45:43

what came next as well, this was provocation. So

45:46

what he wanted me to do now was to say something and

45:48

it all would have set upon me. So

45:51

I can tell that they were carrying, obviously

45:53

we can observe this. They might have

45:55

had their Rambo knives and so forth. After

45:58

I had shook my head. head and you know what

46:00

was so sad to me was kind of heartbreaking as well that

46:02

these young people don't even know that they would have thrown away

46:04

their lives. It's right on the

46:07

high road and everything so in case I was foolish enough

46:09

to say something of course I would have been a victim

46:12

but I'm saying that their lives would have been destroyed

46:14

and their family's lives would have been destroyed as well

46:16

because now they're in prison doing doing a life sentence

46:18

for what because a man was

46:21

just trying to mind his own business going to

46:23

see his wife and he was preventing

46:25

him from actually doing this. Now

46:29

the thing was as well was so quite funny

46:31

as well that sometimes my brothers

46:33

that are in incarceration need to

46:35

understand as well is that

46:37

they sometimes live in a time machine. So

46:40

when I went back to my d-cat and I

46:42

was actually conversing with them I

46:44

told them the story they said oh they didn't know who

46:46

you was you would have probably beaten up all of them

46:48

I said I'm not Superman. I said

46:51

I said everything has changed the whole dynamic so

46:53

you don't need to understand this because you'll become

46:55

a victim very fast outside. So

46:58

this is so I totally understand what

47:01

you're saying. You've got to like I

47:03

said life is a game of chess

47:05

things change all the time every five years ten years

47:08

things do change and you've got to kind of go

47:10

with the times if you don't you're dead so

47:13

you've got to kind of be sensible

47:15

to it there's not a lot of people do stay

47:17

open minded to a change the 11 40 50

47:20

years ago. How long was your court case?

47:24

I plead to go ye. You still

47:26

got fucking over 20 straight what were you

47:28

getting if you didn't? So I got no

47:30

this is what actually happened. I

47:33

got a this was a new thing so remember before

47:35

when they in America they had three strikes and you're

47:37

out yeah England tried to

47:39

do two strikes and you're out so before IPP

47:41

there was a thing called discretionary life sentence so

47:44

due to the severity of your crime I

47:47

got a discretionary which to

47:49

be fair shouldn't have happened and I tell you

47:51

the reasons why it shouldn't have happened from what

47:53

I've got informed about was

47:55

that it it's it came about in I

47:58

think it was 97. 97.

48:01

Now what they said was that

48:03

made me applicable for this was

48:06

because of What

48:08

I done when I was on mine on So

48:11

I was convicted in 95 So

48:14

they used that conviction of 95 and the

48:16

crime that I committed that allowed

48:18

me to get the discretionary life sentence Which

48:21

was a seven-year tariff Which

48:26

I ended up being three times

48:28

that amount Even

48:30

though they say that with a discretionary life sentence

48:33

It really means on the computer that you're doing

48:35

99 years, but at that time I had no

48:37

understanding I was

48:39

totally oblivious to what

48:41

was going on. I was thinking yes, Evan

48:43

and that was it I didn't understand it

48:45

didn't compute to compute in my mind that

48:49

I'm actually I'm actually

48:52

gonna be in there for a very long time and

48:55

some of the some of the reasons sometimes I sit back

48:57

and I reflect and I

48:59

realized why I got that because They

49:02

were people that were shooting off the police and

49:04

so forth and they didn't even get a discretionary

49:06

life sentence And I got a discretionary life sentence.

49:08

I'm thinking why is this all happening and It

49:11

started to make sense what I didn't know at the

49:13

time as well At that

49:16

time there was a lot of black-and-black shootings as

49:18

well and trading was getting involved I

49:20

know that I was flagged up as an individual as

49:22

well that they believed that I've done a string of

49:24

shootings and got away with So

49:26

there was a lot of other factors

49:28

that were working behind the scenes against

49:31

me, which when you're young again

49:33

naive You're just not seeing

49:35

it that way when others are observing you your name

49:37

is coming up all the time So

49:40

yeah, why did you plead to her? Again

49:46

The young arm the young lady There

49:50

was other factors as well Obviously

49:52

the individual and I just thought you know what? now

49:56

looking back I'm thinking but I that

50:00

she could have got dragged into it. I weren't

50:02

romantically involved with her, she was a lot older

50:04

than me. It was a friend-sister

50:08

and with us as well, we've always had, if

50:10

you speak to Lou as well, we've always had

50:12

Patmore is different. We're like a family

50:14

in Patmore and we have

50:16

respect and we accept responsibility and to be

50:19

fair I put my hands up because it

50:21

weren't supposed to go the way it went

50:23

as well. You need to also understand

50:25

that if you make a mistake you need

50:27

to do that mistake and you need to correct

50:29

that mistake and that's how we

50:32

grew up especially on Patmore as well. If you

50:34

make that mistake you're gonna have to do with

50:36

that mistake, you're gonna have to rectify that mistake.

50:38

So you took responsibility? Yeah

50:41

100%. So you're thinking you're only going to do a seven? Yeah

50:44

I thought I was only going to do yeah

50:46

because I found out eventually. I didn't know at

50:48

the time there was one of the gentlemen was

50:50

fighting for his life so it was close. They

50:53

at one stage were going to turn off the machine. I didn't know

50:56

all this what was going on but

50:58

he pulled through and I thank God for

51:00

this as well. What would you have got

51:02

then if you died? You'd still been? Yeah

51:04

I know at that time a gun-related

51:06

murder was 20 years but knowing

51:09

how would it probably still be in? Yes.

51:11

Yeah and how was that? See

51:13

at that time though if they died would you have cared?

51:19

Again we speak the truth even if it's against

51:22

ourselves not really. I

51:24

was in such a bad place and

51:27

so this is the reasons why that

51:30

I'm a person that I usually like to be in the background. Even

51:34

taking this kind of interviews as well and being

51:36

conversing with so many people because I feel that

51:39

we're at a bad place as a society now and

51:42

as what you said we need sometimes not

51:44

only real men but you

51:46

know just real people. We

51:49

need that community feel again. We need people

51:51

to stand up and be counted and

51:54

I just feel that I also have

51:56

those tools and I feel that I

51:58

could also make a difference and a change. There's many great men

52:00

that I left when I

52:03

was in incarceration as well that could be

52:05

professors, that could be scientists but they're just

52:07

not given a chance in society They

52:10

are lepers of society, they're ostracized

52:12

from society and

52:15

I just want to prove to you, you

52:17

know, the general public as well that look

52:21

I've made changes and there's so many other

52:23

people that have made changes

52:25

in their lives Please give us a chance What present did

52:27

you go to? I've been all over What

52:29

was the first one? So... When

52:32

you got your back's done? Oh, what was it again? So initially,

52:34

so I was on Vermont So

52:36

I was on Vermont for a year I

52:39

started as a young offender So,

52:41

back in young offenders But

52:43

this time it was different Because

52:47

at that time as well, they were...

52:50

There was a lot of, you know,

52:52

there was a lot of shootings We're talking about the

52:55

early 2000s and the

52:58

late 90s There was a lot

53:01

of string of shootings and so forth So

53:03

when I was incarcerated Then

53:07

I had nine cousins that was also

53:09

incarcerated and they had their

53:11

co-defendants So again, I

53:13

still didn't take the magnitude of it It was all

53:15

just one big party So

53:19

we were just out of control We weren't listening to nobody I

53:23

used to say this to the officers and I

53:25

apologize to them as well because I gave them...

53:27

I gave them murders when I first came in

53:30

because I just didn't care I was

53:32

thinking that, wait Nobody

53:34

told me anything when I was actually

53:36

outside You're definitely not going to tell

53:38

me anything now that

53:41

I'm in prison And where did

53:43

I also prior before

53:45

that my first

53:47

sentence, an officer because I was always fighting

53:49

as well He saw potential He said that

53:51

I should join a boxing club So

53:54

when I was out for those two years I was actually

53:56

boxing I was representing my club at Carlsford So

53:58

I traveled up and down the country I went on

54:00

the Channel Islands, I beat the number one in the Channel

54:02

Islands. I boxed everywhere.

54:06

So I was quite handy with my fist as well.

54:08

So when I went back in, obviously it

54:10

was like Charles play for me. So

54:14

eventually they had enough.

54:16

There was a riot. There was

54:18

a riot on the other side, which

54:22

one of my cousins was involved. He's got

54:24

the same cause I had nine cousins. Four of them had

54:26

the same surname as me. So

54:28

how they justified moving me as well is

54:31

because they said, the tornado team, that they

54:33

heard they said, let's get Patterson. But what

54:35

Patterson? There was lots of us. So

54:37

what one are you talking, we're referring to. So

54:41

then they moved me to Chanceford. So

54:43

they started me up at 20. I

54:46

then moved to Chanceford. Whilst

54:49

I was in Chanceford, they

54:51

didn't put me onto the young offender side,

54:53

but I got like a hero's welcome. So

54:56

they'll think this kid's got to be problem. So they moved

54:58

me to the adults. Now

55:00

you need to understand the whole kind of dynamics

55:03

of the prison system at that time, especially

55:06

when I first, I saw the dynamics was a bit different.

55:10

Before what they used to have. What

55:13

I saw, they usually have a person controlling

55:15

the wing. So normally in

55:17

that those times, it'll probably be a big white guy pushing

55:19

a lot of weights and he would

55:21

kind of put

55:24

people in order and

55:26

the officers will turn a blind eye to what he was

55:29

basically doing. But we'll keep

55:31

people in line. So somebody needed to be spoken

55:34

to. So

55:36

when I went onto the wing, I remember this

55:39

gentleman, he approached me and

55:41

he's big and

55:44

he said, this is

55:46

not something like this is not a young offenders

55:48

boy. Now I'm

55:50

not saying he's racist, but to call

55:52

a black person a boy, and especially

55:54

this historical content to this. And

55:58

he's underestimated me again. just

56:00

like so many people have because I'm young he

56:03

fought and then unfortunate for

56:05

him it didn't really work

56:07

out in the way that he thought it was going to work

56:09

out remember I come from a boxing background so

56:13

then now the whole dynamics have changed and

56:15

then I've started to notice that even throughout

56:17

the prison system the whole dynamics are changing

56:19

because my generation's coming in they're

56:22

young they're unruly um we

56:25

don't care whether you call yourself an old villain

56:27

and so forth yeah okay you've got guys that

56:29

can do this you've

56:31

got 50 guys outside that will do that as

56:33

well so what are you gonna do and so

56:36

then the whole dynamic shift now

56:38

they now the prison

56:40

systems in loggerhead still don't know what to

56:42

do so what actually happened

56:45

was in

56:47

my roman time I was moved so many times

56:50

um I went to belmarsh

56:53

about three times um

56:56

one's worth about twice scrubs

56:59

about three times um

57:02

all of pentalville about two times

57:05

I just they just kept

57:07

on moving me sometimes at courts as well then the

57:09

court saying I said how comes I'm not going back

57:11

on the van to go back to that prison and

57:13

they're basically saying that that prison doesn't want you you

57:15

need to go somewhere else we don't know where to

57:17

put you everyone saying no so

57:20

I just kept on like moving until I

57:22

was actually convicted I

57:24

kept on moving and

57:26

that was literally it until

57:30

and it was always the same um

57:32

fights fights fights

57:35

saw on officers fights saw

57:37

on officers seg um

57:40

had escape attempt oh baileys what

57:43

was that escape attempt like so

57:46

what actually happened was I had another

57:48

case so

57:50

as you know already I was convicted for

57:53

the double shooting but I also

57:55

had a bank robbery so

57:58

I had to go court for

58:00

that but this time I realized that there weren't a lot

58:03

of security and me

58:05

and my other co-defendant from that one of

58:07

my co-defendants had already been convicted for it

58:10

so we decided I didn't know that my

58:13

parent my mother was upstairs and his

58:15

mother was upstairs we didn't know we thought that

58:17

because it was an awkward day so we

58:19

thought that this is the best time so

58:23

they didn't have they didn't have like the

58:25

perspective or nothing and we just jumped over

58:28

and then we ran through but they all

58:30

seemed to focus on me and

58:32

it was like because there were so many people that

58:34

were jumping on top of me and suffocating me and

58:37

so forth my friend actually he could have escaped it

58:40

was a real um Lauren Hardy moment like

58:42

he turned

58:45

back and honked me and

58:47

so now I'm angry I've got all cuts

58:49

like my neck and so I decided to

58:51

throw punches now like I'm angry so

58:54

then now it's dawning to me now you

58:56

need to run so I'm thinking okay I

58:58

remember there was another gentleman that escaped from the

59:00

old Bailey's by jumping out the window I'm gonna

59:02

do the same thing so I run

59:05

into this room and there was all these police officers drinking

59:07

their tea and coffee they just all pounced

59:09

at me even then like

59:11

um I'm

59:13

still struggling I'm all like

59:16

you know I'm still trying to fight I never forget

59:18

my friend as well he's like it's

59:20

over D and

59:25

I'm like it's never over

59:28

you know I swear

59:31

to you I was like um I was like

59:33

braveheart it was just like

59:35

freedom yeah so anyway they

59:37

they kind of hogtied me and just carried me

59:40

it was so humiliating at the time I thought

59:42

it was a badge of honor it's just embarrassing

59:44

like your hogtied and they're carrying you like that

59:46

and one

59:48

I think one J law he

59:50

was so um he

59:53

was so taken back by the ferocity and everything

59:55

he said I quit he just went like and

1:00:00

And then, yeah, it was a life of an E-Men

1:00:02

suit and everything else and it was this... So

1:00:06

yeah, I got another... I got

1:00:08

seven years to run concurrent with

1:00:11

my sentence. And

1:00:14

yeah. But when you

1:00:16

add it all up, the ones you did get

1:00:18

away with, the robberies, the shootings, even

1:00:20

though in your mind, even though I'm sitting here, I'm

1:00:23

thinking that it's about half, but when you add it all up, you're

1:00:26

probably lucky as well. And you don't want that.

1:00:28

You know what I mean? So you can look at

1:00:30

it and that's saying, you know what, fucking that deserves it.

1:00:32

I was a mad man. If I wasn't

1:00:34

shooting those two people and I didn't go for them, I'm

1:00:36

going to kill someone. And then

1:00:38

that, there's no going back from that because that

1:00:40

does something to your psyche. But with your justice.

1:00:42

Yeah. And a lot of people don't understand this.

1:00:44

A lot of people glorify it because even before

1:00:46

it was, well, people say, yeah, I like your

1:00:48

real stuff, but they don't know

1:00:50

behind the scenes what was actually happening to

1:00:52

me. There was

1:00:54

times outside as well that you start not

1:00:57

to trust anybody. I

1:00:59

started to have extreme paranoia in the sense of,

1:01:02

can I really trust this person? Then

1:01:04

I would have times where I was so depressed where

1:01:07

I'll just walk. And it was

1:01:09

crazy for me, like for me to be seen walking

1:01:11

outside at any time I could. Like, are

1:01:14

you crazy? And the

1:01:17

nightmares, it was really

1:01:19

bad. I'm talking about

1:01:21

like, I

1:01:23

would have some severe nightmares

1:01:26

where I wake up and I'm crying and I'm crying

1:01:28

because I don't want to go back to sleep. I

1:01:31

don't know what the next dream is going to be like. And

1:01:34

I think a lot of people don't understand this. I

1:01:36

was actually being tortured. It

1:01:39

was like, it was like torment for me to close my eyes. And

1:01:42

the way this thing was, I'm going to be honest with

1:01:44

you. When I was in

1:01:46

the police store and I

1:01:48

knew I weren't going home and

1:01:52

that part of my life, that chapter has been

1:01:54

closed, I slept like a

1:01:56

baby. It

1:01:58

was weird. I

1:02:04

think I don't know I have that God

1:02:07

forbid it because we never know when the mind

1:02:09

can turn so I'm not trying to I

1:02:12

just don't know I have that tenaciousness I

1:02:14

don't know what's them a lot of played

1:02:17

yeah I think it's

1:02:20

from again yeah I

1:02:23

just but you never

1:02:25

know so you know God forbid

1:02:27

it and I thank God that he's kept me

1:02:29

up till now because I know how easy the

1:02:32

mind is and especially when we go further into

1:02:34

our conversation and we talk about solitary confinement and

1:02:36

so forth and I spent seven years in solitary

1:02:39

so it does something to the mind

1:02:41

so I understand how easy it is for the mind

1:02:43

too so I never I will

1:02:45

never mock anybody that suffers with mental health

1:02:47

issues because I know how easy it is

1:02:49

to switch. When did you start getting

1:02:52

that question the things

1:02:54

that you've done because like you say it's

1:02:56

to justify everything we've done it's bad man

1:02:58

killing bad man bad man shooting bad man

1:03:00

and therefore it fucked the system they abused

1:03:03

me and beat me when I was a

1:03:05

kid and they made things worse we can

1:03:07

all blame obviously there's a time when you

1:03:09

take responsibility and go wait a minute was

1:03:11

it a moment how far into your sentence

1:03:13

and solitary confinement you down in all the

1:03:16

the billier becoming the bill you were

1:03:18

a brilliant to then being

1:03:20

fucking the billier basically they shifted like you

1:03:22

say everything's a shift but when was it

1:03:24

ever a moment when

1:03:26

you started going what the fuck am I doing

1:03:29

yeah so it comes a bit later so

1:03:32

we'll talk further about the solitary confinement side

1:03:34

of things yeah how was that how seven

1:03:36

years in the whole like that's

1:03:38

a long time but you must have been a loose

1:03:40

cannon no I would have loved to have

1:03:43

seen you I wouldn't have no

1:03:45

but I'd love to have seen your mannerisms the

1:03:47

way you speak the way you talk the way

1:03:49

you presented yourself 20 years ago so I can

1:03:51

really judge the the shift of

1:03:53

momentum and the shift on life the

1:03:55

transition yeah you know I mean it's

1:03:57

interesting because I know you're sitting there I can see

1:04:00

I can see you with a fucking nutcase, I

1:04:02

can see that you had that madness and we

1:04:04

can change your character,

1:04:06

you can change your character to make change,

1:04:09

you've got to change your whole personality, so even

1:04:11

though you're acting like this and speaking quite articulate

1:04:13

and seeing the world differently, the people who you

1:04:15

grew up with will think he's worth his fucking

1:04:18

mind, this is a man who will think you're

1:04:20

fucking jot on because they know you're a psycho,

1:04:22

this could be another act, you know what I

1:04:24

mean? You're in the house at night sharpening up

1:04:26

your toes, fucking ready to go for a ring

1:04:29

tune and people will be saying I told

1:04:32

you so because that's what it is, it's

1:04:34

psychotic but men are psychotic so

1:04:36

nobody is sitting here and I can understand it, it's

1:04:38

an amazing thing. And we can

1:04:41

be very, as human beings as well, we

1:04:43

can, we're scared to change and we can

1:04:45

be very pessimistic. So

1:04:47

I have to explore a lot

1:04:50

of painful experiences

1:04:52

in my life as well but

1:04:54

I think the first transition is what you were

1:04:56

talking about was before I went into solitary confinement.

1:04:59

So when I was in Willamard Scrubs, there

1:05:02

was a governor actually and he was a mis-actor and

1:05:05

she found me amusing because

1:05:10

they knew that I'm always having fights

1:05:12

and sometimes but they knew I went

1:05:14

a troublesome person. I was still polite, I

1:05:16

said please, I said thank you but it's a sense if somebody

1:05:18

triggers me, it was always

1:05:21

that. So she found me quite amusing so

1:05:24

she would say yeah Mr.

1:05:26

Patterson are you going to behave and

1:05:28

there was two things. So

1:05:31

there was a gentleman, we would

1:05:33

say Saf, he was

1:05:35

a brother of mine and I used to love

1:05:38

his character. It

1:05:40

was just the way that he was, for

1:05:42

example one of the biggest issues in

1:05:44

prison is somebody pushes in the queue.

1:05:48

I was just going to, a gentleman pushed in

1:05:50

and I was just going to become

1:05:54

very very aggressive and

1:05:58

he would say things like Rava,

1:06:02

take it easy. Why

1:06:04

can't we learn to disagree without being

1:06:06

violently disagreeable? And he would say

1:06:08

other things such as, all it shows is

1:06:10

this man's more hungry than us. They eat, we're not going

1:06:13

to lose out. And in such

1:06:15

a simplistic way. And

1:06:17

it was just like he was liked by everybody.

1:06:19

It didn't matter whether he was Muslim, non-Muslim, everybody

1:06:21

had that kind of level of respect for him.

1:06:24

And he was just such a nice person to

1:06:26

be around. So that was kind

1:06:28

of like the trigger. That was like the spark. And

1:06:30

I was thinking, you know, there's other ways of communicating

1:06:32

with people without getting into extreme violence. But

1:06:35

also remember this as well, that

1:06:37

sometimes uneducated people do uneducated things.

1:06:40

So what actually happened

1:06:42

is, again, the story of my life, there

1:06:45

was this particular gym officer. He took a disliking to

1:06:47

me, but I have to be honest, I took a

1:06:49

disliking to him. So they came

1:06:51

up with an opportunity I used to love doing my

1:06:53

workouts. Because in

1:06:56

those times, they still allowed you to

1:06:58

have like boxing mitts and

1:07:01

gloves and so forth. And

1:07:03

there was one particular officer, he was a CM,

1:07:05

I liked him, Mr. Jarvis,

1:07:08

he was doing a 50 man committee. So he wanted someone

1:07:10

to spar with. And he would call me

1:07:12

and we'd say, he was so funny, he

1:07:14

would say, it's the only time you can hit a screw. So

1:07:18

you don't know as well as I put in extra power.

1:07:22

But no, but he was good. Yeah, he was

1:07:24

actually good as well. He can handle himself. If

1:07:26

I'm not careful, he could knock me out. Yeah,

1:07:29

some screws are tough man. Men are men. Yeah,

1:07:31

we have to remember this. Men are men. No

1:07:33

matter what your views or opinion is, a man

1:07:35

is a man. So what

1:07:37

actually happened was, I know,

1:07:39

I'm sorry, lads, but this

1:07:42

gym officer was, and

1:07:44

then unfortunate for him. Then after

1:07:46

that, they took the pads and saying that no, you're training

1:07:48

them up too much. Then

1:07:52

after that, I was taken to the SIG, obviously,

1:07:57

conflict of interest and so forth. during

1:08:01

that time Miss

1:08:03

Acto the governor she fought for me no you know

1:08:05

because there was a lot of so that didn't lie

1:08:07

that officer he was considered to be

1:08:09

a bully so

1:08:12

they said okay he has to stay in the SIG

1:08:14

but he can go education from the SIG what did

1:08:16

you do we

1:08:21

can just put it this way I used

1:08:24

some of my boxing skills yeah

1:08:26

so in the country and

1:08:28

yeah but it was severe um

1:08:32

I think it could have been but then I

1:08:35

was held back at the time I was held

1:08:37

back by a family friend and

1:08:39

some other residents after they saw the severity of

1:08:41

how we could have went you could have

1:08:43

killed them um I wouldn't

1:08:45

put it we

1:08:48

don't know yeah it was it was it

1:08:50

was getting to a stage where that because

1:08:53

I felt that it was just how

1:08:56

he was towards me he underestimated me I

1:08:58

was young at the time remember

1:09:00

I used to box arm at like

1:09:02

middle so 69 kilograms so he's looking

1:09:04

at me he's probably thinking that yes

1:09:06

I can handle this and

1:09:08

so I was just angry and not anger

1:09:11

and aggression I

1:09:13

was taken to the SIG um they agreed

1:09:15

that I can go education and then that's

1:09:17

when I met the wonderful Angela she was

1:09:20

the head of the education department she

1:09:22

said I can see you're highly intelligent but

1:09:25

you're talking in all these slangs and so

1:09:27

forth and when you're dealing with professional people

1:09:29

you need to know how to educate yourself

1:09:33

in a better light so what she

1:09:35

would actually do is was go through the dictionary with me I'd

1:09:37

had to learn a word she would also

1:09:39

allow me to conquer my affairs by

1:09:41

giving presentations on different subject

1:09:44

matters and then from there

1:09:46

became a teacher's assistant and so forth but

1:09:49

at the time there was the gym officers obviously

1:09:52

some of these colleagues that was too unhappy why is he

1:09:54

here he's just a suited one of

1:09:56

us do you know that type

1:09:58

of mentality yeah so one of visit I

1:10:01

had a friend come

1:10:04

and see me I had the hours visit they're

1:10:06

telling me that my visits been terminated so

1:10:09

unfortunately I think you know what happens next

1:10:11

I waited I thought

1:10:13

my friend was gone and

1:10:16

then I said to him what did you say and because

1:10:18

he was so big and it

1:10:20

was like it's not funny but was

1:10:23

so comical on what happened I

1:10:26

obviously I

1:10:28

punched him I turned

1:10:30

I turned around that face the others cuz I know they're

1:10:32

gonna come and see me now cuz I put my hand

1:10:34

I thought he was gone he was out

1:10:36

the way but it was the way

1:10:39

that he

1:10:41

kind of liked those momentum like we

1:10:44

know as boxers that when you have a good

1:10:46

punch and you connect something that you just know

1:10:48

the person's out he's not recovering from that and

1:10:50

it was he was out by selling

1:10:52

him going back he went back forward and he

1:10:54

dropped on my back whilst I was facing the

1:10:56

rest of these colleagues so I'm trapped underneath and

1:10:59

I swear everybody so when they looked on the camera they

1:11:01

were all laughing like it was a funny

1:11:04

moment he was like he was asleep and on my back

1:11:06

and obviously they took me from the visits

1:11:12

they dragged him in there and then obviously you

1:11:15

know their methods in those times where they give

1:11:17

you a spanking hmm so I accepted

1:11:19

that I knew that every time I put my

1:11:21

hand on the officer I expected that they were going to be

1:11:23

repercussions as well so

1:11:26

after that I would

1:11:29

then moved around and the same this you

1:11:32

know this same old things

1:11:34

going on in all different

1:11:36

prisons I'm being accused of

1:11:39

I'm being accused of all these different

1:11:42

you know types of activities that are

1:11:44

going on and then I started

1:11:46

to become closer to my faith and then

1:11:48

that's when more problems start to

1:11:50

increase as soon as I started

1:11:53

to practice more started to pray

1:11:55

it's time to become I'm a part of the

1:11:57

Muslim boy gang I'm one of the

1:11:59

leaders and then that's when it became

1:12:02

very difficult for me. I like that. Difficult

1:12:07

in the sense of that every sort of thing that

1:12:09

will come from me. So I'll be

1:12:11

placed in the Segg, I'll be moved from present

1:12:13

to present. And there

1:12:15

will be no explanations to me

1:12:17

except for SIRs, the Security Incident

1:12:19

Reports. Basically saying that we

1:12:21

have intel and that's all it took. Spending

1:12:25

months in the Segg, no

1:12:28

valid reason. But

1:12:31

allegedly, allegedly what we can't tell

1:12:33

you that information. Okay,

1:12:35

can I speak to somebody that can? Oh,

1:12:38

we'll get back to you. So

1:12:43

eventually I, the

1:12:47

incident started, so when I was in the

1:12:50

last Seagrass,

1:12:53

so one of the last Seagrass instances where I was

1:12:56

in Dovegate, I've been in

1:12:59

Dovegate twice. So the first time

1:13:01

I went to Dovegate, there

1:13:03

was an officer, he was an operations manager.

1:13:06

He had a problem, obviously,

1:13:11

we usually use a particular room to pray in

1:13:14

for our Jooma service, our Friday service.

1:13:18

He said that we couldn't use it. So

1:13:20

I just asked, like any civilized person that

1:13:22

would, you would ask, okay, what are the

1:13:25

reasons? Are there different alternatives? He

1:13:28

just said, no, I'm telling you and

1:13:30

I don't care. That type of attitude, I'm

1:13:32

saying this is faith though, I have the entire woman. At

1:13:36

least give us another room or different alternative. And then

1:13:38

he said, so what are you going to do about

1:13:40

it? And that was my

1:13:42

trigger. I know I shouldn't have worked then. It's

1:13:47

like snakes and ladders. I went back, I

1:13:49

just went back to that dark place again, I just

1:13:52

had tunnel vision and I just saw him. And

1:13:55

so it didn't work out

1:13:57

well for him. So

1:14:00

at the time I was angry with the

1:14:02

brothers at the time that was around me, but

1:14:04

I'm thankful to them now because I understood that

1:14:07

at the time when the incident was happening, the

1:14:10

officers weren't aware of what was going on. So there was no

1:14:12

bail, there was no nothing and I was hitting them for a

1:14:14

while. And

1:14:17

so you can imagine, and so they had to

1:14:19

drag me off. And

1:14:22

then eventually, and so what happened was they

1:14:27

were so upset because obviously the police were

1:14:29

involved now. It's a police matter, it's serious.

1:14:33

But how it never manifested itself

1:14:35

now, what happened? This

1:14:37

was so strange. I accept full responsibility, but

1:14:40

you have to also understand this. Well, if

1:14:42

you say that you

1:14:45

work for an organization and you play by those

1:14:47

rules, then you're supposed to

1:14:49

play by those rules. What actually happened was I was

1:14:51

in front of having the adjudication. So

1:14:54

they were telling me on regards to the matter of when the

1:14:56

police are going to get involved and so forth. Then

1:14:58

I am being independent on your inboard. So this is

1:15:00

a civilian that is there. I'm

1:15:04

talking to them like I'm talking to you now. So

1:15:06

my back is against the door. I didn't see the

1:15:09

door just flying open. I didn't know and I just got

1:15:11

all punches in my face and everything. They

1:15:13

all were all officers like to lay into me, kicking

1:15:15

me on the floor. I

1:15:19

had my clothes. Obviously

1:15:21

they used to do a system as well. They cut your

1:15:23

clothes, strip so cut

1:15:26

your clothes. They kind of, you know how

1:15:28

they do it when they fold you up

1:15:31

and then one at the end, he kind of sits

1:15:34

on you and they wait and they say, go, go,

1:15:36

go, go. And then everyone runs

1:15:38

and they slam the door. And

1:15:42

I was a mess. So

1:15:45

what happened was now. When the police

1:15:47

came in, they saw the condition of me and so forth. How

1:15:49

can they continue with the charges and

1:15:51

looking at the state of me and what's going to happen? Am

1:15:54

I going to press charges even though we

1:15:56

don't do that, but so they

1:15:58

dropped the case. But what they done was they sent me. meet a

1:16:00

dispersal. That was my first time. That was in

1:16:02

2005. What

1:16:04

was dispersal like? Oh,

1:16:07

I'm surprised they never sent you to Broadmoor. Could

1:16:10

that have been a possibility? We're gonna,

1:16:12

we're gonna, we're gonna go into that as well. Because

1:16:14

they did on many occasions. They tried to, they

1:16:17

tried to get a lot of um, psychiatrists. Yeah,

1:16:20

because you're beating up one screw, it happens. Some

1:16:22

they're getting fucking worried. Some they had enough, had

1:16:24

a bad day, found out the messages up to

1:16:26

something they crack up. But it seemed to have

1:16:28

been consistent with you. I'm surprised they even let

1:16:30

you out without having your fucking shackles on. No,

1:16:33

you're gonna see, you're gonna, there's more

1:16:36

to come. Believe me, James. The

1:16:39

system where it's finished, it's what they said

1:16:42

as well. We're gonna get our pound of

1:16:44

flesh over you. Yeah. It's when you least

1:16:46

expect to. Which is understandable. Because if you're

1:16:48

fucking beating them down, it's like a little

1:16:50

farm is like the coppers. They stand together.

1:16:53

No matter how, what they try to do

1:16:55

good or wrong, they all stand together. Yeah.

1:16:57

And um, I learned a very, very hard

1:16:59

lesson. And you're gonna find out

1:17:01

soon. So yeah.

1:17:04

So I went to the spurs, I went to the spurs when

1:17:06

I saw that the whole dynamics was different now.

1:17:08

This was a whole different caliber of individuals. I,

1:17:12

I saw it like, these

1:17:15

were, these were gentlemen's, these

1:17:17

were men that were so

1:17:19

disconnected from society now that it, it

1:17:21

seemed like kind of Mad Max. It

1:17:24

was like a dystopia. It

1:17:27

was like a

1:17:29

gladiatorial contest. Survival

1:17:31

of the fittest. It was crazy. Now,

1:17:34

one of the first things that I identified when I

1:17:36

went onto the wing in high security as well, when

1:17:38

somebody will come out the kitchen with a pot in

1:17:40

their hands, everybody will be moving

1:17:42

sideways or be observing.

1:17:46

And I'll be the stand then a person won't

1:17:48

tap me and say like, we don't know where

1:17:50

that's going. And sometimes,

1:17:53

nine times I attended somebody just cooking their

1:17:55

food and just going, but sometimes it could

1:17:57

be used as ghee. Where I

1:17:59

think that's. one of the most, no

1:18:01

it was oil, because remember this, in

1:18:04

dispersals where you can cook food, so you

1:18:06

had oil, or ghee, butter, ghee, so

1:18:09

it's tremendous though, I

1:18:12

think that's probably some of

1:18:14

the worst incidents that I've ever seen, when

1:18:17

somebody pours, when you

1:18:19

leave it to bubble up for such a long

1:18:21

period of time and it goes actually black and

1:18:23

then somebody pours it over a person, it's

1:18:26

horrific when you hear them scream and so forth,

1:18:28

the smell. So,

1:18:32

but what was actually happening is I had a good solicitor

1:18:35

and it was Tracy, Tracy Grease, our

1:18:37

banker as well, and

1:18:39

then eventually I had another solicitor and he

1:18:41

smelt him, thank you, but

1:18:46

at the time they

1:18:49

contested it, so

1:18:51

what they said is that if

1:18:53

this man now has found not

1:18:55

guilty for this assault

1:18:58

on this officer, it's being thrown out, what

1:19:01

is he basically doing in high

1:19:03

security? Which made

1:19:05

sense, because the whole reason why I was there,

1:19:08

because I'm not an A cat yet, yes there

1:19:10

was when I was in Belmarsh, I was put

1:19:12

as a potential cat A, but then they removed

1:19:14

me from that, so I was

1:19:16

a B cat technically, so why can't I go to

1:19:18

a B establishment? So

1:19:21

what they done was, which was a lot,

1:19:23

but it didn't really work out well for me, because

1:19:25

I'm going to tell you in a second, is

1:19:28

that I said okay

1:19:30

then, they sent me

1:19:32

to, if my memory says me correctly, I

1:19:34

went to Godtree, so

1:19:38

when I was in Godtree, it

1:19:42

was, there was a lot of tension,

1:19:46

at that time as well, as we know already,

1:19:48

that there was a lot of things that was

1:19:50

actually happening outside with people

1:19:54

saying that with Islam and

1:19:57

there was a lot of Islamophobic. I

1:20:00

will say rhetoric in prison as well. A

1:20:03

lot of these guys felt that, well, we're

1:20:06

going to tarnish you all with the same brush. So

1:20:09

when I went to, when I went to

1:20:11

Gartry as well, I was hearing things like,

1:20:13

and remember my sense of social injustices, like

1:20:16

three Muslims in a cell, and

1:20:19

a guy comes in, he slaps all of them in their

1:20:21

faces, and says, go back to where

1:20:23

you come from. They're born over here.

1:20:26

Something came really? So

1:20:29

when I've arrived, I said, who? Tell

1:20:31

me who it is. So

1:20:34

then they pointed me out to this particular individual.

1:20:36

I went up there, just man

1:20:38

to man. I said, OK, gladiatorial contest. You

1:20:40

don't like my faith and so forth. You

1:20:43

want to do some type of crusade. I don't know

1:20:45

what you're thinking. I don't know who you are. I

1:20:48

don't really care about this. I'm

1:20:50

just looking at you as a shallow man. So

1:20:54

we're going to resolve it like men. So

1:20:56

when I entered this gentleman's

1:20:59

arm, I

1:21:02

was expecting us to

1:21:04

go, obviously, to

1:21:07

engage, but he didn't. And

1:21:09

I actually saw, I looked in his eyes and I saw that he was scared.

1:21:13

And then he tried to make excuses, but now

1:21:15

I felt a way. I thought that I'm not

1:21:18

really a bully. One thing that

1:21:20

I was taught, and even my faith teaches

1:21:22

me as well, that if somebody always

1:21:25

give a man a doorway to say face, don't

1:21:28

pursue it, don't press it. So.

1:21:34

He said he

1:21:36

didn't want nothing to. So we kind

1:21:38

of shook hands like a gentleman's

1:21:40

agreement. I left. Now,

1:21:43

the most embarrassing moment was for me now. I'm

1:21:46

on the toilet. I'm in my soul. The door,

1:21:48

the door flies open. Um,

1:21:51

it's the Muftis. So

1:21:54

what we say, Muftis is officers that are wearing

1:21:56

PPE kits. So they have the shields, the helmets.

1:22:01

They basically came in on me. I'm

1:22:04

there on the toilet. I said, I'm on the

1:22:06

toilet. They said, you can finish off when you

1:22:09

go down the SIG. That's what they

1:22:11

said to me. So I'm taken

1:22:13

to the SIG, and

1:22:16

then they basically, they're basically

1:22:19

saying that I've been bullying, I've

1:22:22

been forcing people to pray. They

1:22:25

were saying all these kind of rhetoric which weren't true. And

1:22:28

then they say, I'm back at Whitemore. What

1:22:31

a short trip. I think I spent less

1:22:33

than six months I was there. A

1:22:36

lot of people don't know, but as the Muslim

1:22:38

boys who run the prisons now, as

1:22:40

the Muslims who have got a strong brotherhood

1:22:43

where a lot of them are calling the shots from

1:22:45

the way it used to be, everything's kind of changed.

1:22:48

Why did you choose Islam? I

1:22:51

embraced Islam when I was 16. So

1:22:53

you left? I was always, yeah. I was always

1:22:56

an inquisitive person, see, because I come from

1:22:58

a very, you could

1:23:00

say, a very religious

1:23:04

family. For

1:23:06

example, my

1:23:09

grandmother from my father's side, she

1:23:12

was a Catholic. My

1:23:14

grandfather used to be a Catholic, then he

1:23:17

became a Jehovah. My

1:23:19

grandparents from my mother's side were Church of

1:23:21

England. I used to be an auto boy. I

1:23:24

read passages in the Bible, Genesis,

1:23:26

Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. So I

1:23:29

was always inquisitive,

1:23:32

but there was questions that I used to pose as well. And

1:23:35

do you know, especially in my times, I think

1:23:37

I might be slightly older than you, where

1:23:39

they used to say that children are supposed

1:23:41

to be seen but not heard. So

1:23:45

it was never convincing, because

1:23:47

I was always a kid that asked many questions,

1:23:50

even when I used to travel with any of

1:23:52

my relations. I would just

1:23:54

constantly ask them, oh,

1:23:57

so what about this? Why is this? And

1:24:00

it was funny, my friend who introduced me to

1:24:02

it at the time, they called him Jamman, who

1:24:04

was like to the smallest guys. And

1:24:08

he would mention Islam, but in his

1:24:10

version, he didn't like, if

1:24:13

he didn't really look deeply into it, no

1:24:15

disrespect to him. He didn't really know

1:24:17

too much about his face. But

1:24:21

it made the little bits that he did say

1:24:23

made sense to me, if that makes sense. I

1:24:25

said, let's give me something to read. So

1:24:29

he was just like, because

1:24:32

I think for him it was a different experience,

1:24:34

you know, like growing up. He's like, like with

1:24:36

us, like we'd have to go like, you know,

1:24:38

I have a Sunday school, my father was a

1:24:40

12 tribe, Rokfarian and so forth. So you know,

1:24:42

it's different, my father never imposed this

1:24:44

belief system on us. So

1:24:48

then I embraced, and that's why I said to a lot

1:24:50

of people, like I didn't do this because I was trying

1:24:52

to be accepted or jump in a lot of people, but

1:24:54

then they said that, so what

1:24:57

happened then? If you found

1:24:59

that utopia, then

1:25:02

why did you cause a dystopia? We

1:25:04

don't understand it. Like what's going on?

1:25:08

And I said that it was different. It was a different

1:25:10

dynamics there. Because I felt

1:25:12

that especially as a Caribbean as well, that

1:25:15

we were socially excluded. So

1:25:18

a lot of, in

1:25:21

those times as well, a lot of it was based on

1:25:23

culture rather than the

1:25:25

teachings, Islamic teachings itself. So

1:25:28

you would have like, you know, Asian

1:25:30

stuck with Asians, African stuck

1:25:32

with Africans. And

1:25:35

it was just like the Caribbean's were at the bottom.

1:25:39

So I felt even if a white person embraced Islam, they

1:25:41

would be in front of us. It

1:25:43

was just like this kind of caste system. It

1:25:46

was very weird. And I said that that's not the

1:25:48

teachings that I read about. This is not

1:25:50

what my understanding is going

1:25:53

into a mosque and people

1:25:55

don't want to pray shoulder to shoulder to you. It's

1:25:57

like you're a leper or something. Like I've got a

1:25:59

dizzy. disease or something. So I

1:26:01

was very disheartened, especially being the age that I am as

1:26:04

well at that time. I'm just thinking

1:26:06

being 18, coming out, thinking the

1:26:08

world and then I'm just thought, you know what, forget

1:26:11

them. I still believe in my belief system, but I'm just

1:26:14

going to do what I'm doing. So

1:26:17

taking it back. So people

1:26:20

say that it

1:26:22

weren't that I can tell you this personally,

1:26:25

because I've experienced the whole

1:26:28

change within the high security

1:26:30

estate. At first, as what

1:26:32

I said, it was like a Mad Max. There was a lot

1:26:34

of bullying. We

1:26:36

need to be honest here. Let's speak the

1:26:38

truth. It was such, there was so severe bullying

1:26:40

that we're talking about there was guys that

1:26:43

had to tell their mothers to bring in

1:26:45

drugs for them. We

1:26:48

as Muslims as well, as those that were

1:26:50

practicing saying that you can't do this.

1:26:53

It doesn't care what color or nationality or where he's

1:26:55

from, because this little wack is from

1:26:58

the country and he hasn't got nobody to defend him.

1:27:00

So people think that it's easy for them

1:27:02

to walk over him. It's not going to happen. So

1:27:05

we didn't even, you can't compel somebody to the faith.

1:27:08

So what some brothers started to do as well is

1:27:10

saying that, yeah, well, this person's under my protection. What

1:27:12

are you going to do now? And then

1:27:15

that's how it started. But

1:27:17

the funny thing, what a lot of people

1:27:19

don't understand about this conflict as well. There

1:27:21

was always skirmishes, but

1:27:24

the thing that actually triggered all

1:27:27

this escalation of violence between

1:27:30

what I would call those

1:27:32

that had kind of EDL sentiments

1:27:35

compared to Islam, it

1:27:39

started with two non-Muslims. It's what

1:27:41

people can't understand. That's

1:27:43

why that sometimes I

1:27:45

laugh to myself as well. It started with

1:27:48

two non-Muslims. That's how it started. It

1:27:51

started with two non-Muslims having a

1:27:53

fight and one group of individuals

1:27:55

decided that, wait there, their friend is not

1:27:57

getting the better of this other person, even though he's a bit of a

1:27:59

bitch. was much bigger and stronger and he

1:28:01

was trained in boxing so

1:28:04

we're gonna rush him and a Muslim saying

1:28:06

you're not going to do that and he

1:28:08

defended that person by

1:28:11

then they sent letters to each other they

1:28:13

call it kites sorry they

1:28:16

called it kites sending

1:28:18

it to different wings saying that go to the gym

1:28:20

at this particular day and

1:28:23

then to attack that Muslim and

1:28:25

then not knowing that that day there was a lot of

1:28:28

Muslims in the gym then

1:28:30

it obviously they came unstuck then the

1:28:32

10 or 9 of them that went

1:28:34

in there looking to hurt

1:28:37

that Muslim then by them

1:28:39

being taken to the SIG and

1:28:41

the officers send them to Franklin

1:28:43

now I'm not gonna blame a lot of these

1:28:45

on the guys that were in Franklin could they they

1:28:47

only went by what they got told so

1:28:50

soon as they went to Franklin and said

1:28:52

that yeah you know the Muslims are tucking

1:28:54

the white guys up there and beating up

1:28:57

white guys then obviously anyone's gonna it's

1:28:59

close to hustle oh so that's what they're doing

1:29:02

so what did they do in Franklin let's

1:29:04

be the truth I'll speed the

1:29:07

truth then they hurt the Muslims that

1:29:09

was in there they beat them up the

1:29:11

Muslims that was in Franklin so

1:29:13

what happened was after that it's

1:29:16

spreaded across the whole high security estate

1:29:18

that okay Franklin has just beaten up

1:29:20

all the brothers so what the brothers

1:29:22

done from all different dispersals putting applications

1:29:25

to go to Franklin so

1:29:28

now some brothers are getting shipped out there then

1:29:32

there was a situation where that we

1:29:34

knew that because

1:29:36

people are saying that the Muslims are running the

1:29:38

prison system but we have so many elements against

1:29:41

us for example as well

1:29:43

let's be honest people tend to gravitate to their

1:29:45

own so the

1:29:47

officers more can identify with those gentlemen

1:29:49

than they can with us so

1:29:52

sometimes you would see there's metal detectors and

1:29:54

things such as this and you're seeing guys

1:29:56

that are coming off the landing with blades

1:29:58

like this and you know that an officer

1:30:01

felt that so he allowed that to happen

1:30:03

then this person gets disarmed and gets stabbed

1:30:05

and then that person I'm not saying that

1:30:08

every single Muslim was a

1:30:10

victim or he was innocent of course

1:30:12

there's people that look I've

1:30:14

watched podcasts where that individuals have have

1:30:16

owned up to it that I was only

1:30:19

pretending to be a Muslim for the

1:30:21

22 hours outside and then I

1:30:23

came out and it was also we know there's

1:30:25

pretenders there's masquerades but that's

1:30:28

human beings yeah but sometimes when people have

1:30:30

to also understand it done a lot as

1:30:32

well that people are talking about okay

1:30:34

I give you example they said

1:30:36

to me that you're preventing people from

1:30:39

listening to music that's incorrect because

1:30:43

my family was in a famous group my

1:30:46

uncle's there was eruptions if

1:30:48

you can remember that scene I can stand the rain that's

1:30:51

my family my father was

1:30:53

in a my father was in a sound clash called

1:30:55

young lion so music's always been a part of my

1:30:57

life it's not that but one thing that I was

1:30:59

taught by old-school guys it didn't matter what color he

1:31:01

was when I went into the dispersal system this is

1:31:03

what they said to me they don't care how tough

1:31:06

you are they'll put you on the manners they

1:31:09

said this after 10 o'clock the sound

1:31:11

volume goes low so

1:31:14

everybody is a culture it

1:31:17

weren't that we just came and we tried to implement

1:31:19

something everybody knew so if

1:31:21

you're gonna put headphones in listen

1:31:23

to your music but after 10 o'clock

1:31:27

this this was the ruling in

1:31:29

any dispersal you can talk to anyone after about 10 o'clock

1:31:31

or so forth the sound goes down or

1:31:34

somebody will come up and have a word with you you don't

1:31:36

matter who you are I've seen the rise and fall of so

1:31:38

many people not one man is tough

1:31:40

enough to say that well he stands alone

1:31:42

and he can tell anybody people

1:31:45

like to lie as well in the

1:31:47

sense of they'll make it out like

1:31:49

yeah nobody told me anything anyone get

1:31:51

disciplined in dispersal it

1:31:54

doesn't matter who you are so

1:31:57

um so yes so

1:31:59

these were These were

1:32:01

the things that were happening and obviously it escalated

1:32:03

to such a degree where

1:32:05

that, let's

1:32:07

fast forward it, after Dilma

1:32:10

service, a

1:32:12

gentleman got his throat cut. They

1:32:15

said it was me, but

1:32:17

we need to take it back a bit. So

1:32:21

two weeks prior before this, a

1:32:23

few officers got injured. They

1:32:26

said I was a part of it. Yes,

1:32:30

I will admit that I protested because

1:32:33

what they were doing is they

1:32:35

were restraining another resident. I

1:32:37

didn't like the method of what they were doing. It seemed

1:32:39

like it was going to be a George Floyd moment where

1:32:42

they had their knees to his

1:32:44

back, they were pulling like he was choking.

1:32:46

In court, the officer said, I must

1:32:49

admit, this is what the officer said, he

1:32:52

was choking. So they asked

1:32:54

him, why didn't you release his neck? Oh, but I went holding his

1:32:56

neck. So you agree with Mr. Patterson? He was

1:32:58

and he said, yes, I was

1:33:01

actually exonerated from that case. So

1:33:05

they said I came along and injured. This

1:33:08

particular officer that got injured as well, he was

1:33:10

actually fired from the

1:33:12

prison service. This is what a lot of

1:33:14

people don't understand. He was fired and some of these cronies

1:33:16

were fired as well. They were fired. He's suing

1:33:18

the prison service. I know we can't

1:33:20

mention names for legal reasons and so forth, but

1:33:22

you can do your research. He was fired. So

1:33:25

you can imagine for another,

1:33:29

you know, somebody represents a prison system to

1:33:31

be fired. You know that he had to be

1:33:33

doing some dark deeds. He

1:33:35

had to be doing some seriously dark deeds because

1:33:37

don't normally do that. They cover up everything. So

1:33:43

I went down to the SIG. Now you know, especially

1:33:45

in high security, it's conflict of interest, especially when police

1:33:48

are involved. You get shipped out straight

1:33:51

away. You stay in the SIG for many

1:33:53

months and they'll move you to another SIG,

1:33:55

to another dispersal. It Was

1:33:57

very strange. After About two weeks. I

1:34:00

was. Back. On the wing.

1:34:03

You know everybody said to me. Com

1:34:07

if you. An

1:34:09

omelette? not it probably know like he's

1:34:12

a liar and soulful? Could it could

1:34:14

use corrupted. That.

1:34:16

A whistleblower offices I speak for. He went

1:34:18

to the but like the city's a horrible

1:34:20

person women said we didn't feel safe around.

1:34:23

Who have for their own Colleagues do

1:34:25

like com. Something's

1:34:29

gonna happen outlet. Na

1:34:32

na na na. I'm lucky Been down

1:34:34

in the as while seeking stay positive

1:34:36

was also dismissed. It. Now.

1:34:39

It made sense. Dispersive Froch for

1:34:41

frog. it's com mix. The mom.

1:34:44

Save. Comes to me. By now he looks

1:34:46

bad because when they came for me, I'm thankful

1:34:48

to the brothers date this to that lack of

1:34:50

protection in front of. Same. Way

1:34:53

you grab meaningful ways he don't. I don't

1:34:55

want to get nobody in trouble. Side.

1:34:57

To said that you know want to slit and

1:34:59

team. So.

1:35:04

I for okay. That's

1:35:07

okay, I'm in the sake. I

1:35:10

can easily exonerate motherfucker witnesses. To

1:35:12

said. I'm. Here in so

1:35:14

many doors been opened and closed I

1:35:17

think it was going on. The

1:35:19

showed the whole sig up with with the

1:35:22

muslims. The. Whole

1:35:24

sick. Was. Filled and

1:35:26

then the whole arm the hospital

1:35:29

site. Was short and or the

1:35:31

bosses came and this that to meet people.

1:35:34

Now the buses law commission me and I'm thinking

1:35:36

where the city be promoted. A

1:35:39

Lot and. I said

1:35:41

way first and foremost issue And a cat.

1:35:44

Just we just got approved by the Home

1:35:46

office. Far from it. You know

1:35:48

how long that takes? memos, potential table force

1:35:50

I know how he takes. The

1:35:53

said you should never been to be cat. then

1:35:57

they said oh you been promoted

1:36:00

I said okay what yeah

1:36:03

CSC I'm

1:36:06

thinking what is that CSC? I've

1:36:08

never heard of that. What are

1:36:10

you talking about? Close supervision

1:36:12

center So

1:36:14

they're saying that So

1:36:17

somebody the only way that was described to me,

1:36:19

you know, you know that you know that guy

1:36:21

Charles Brunson What demon is on

1:36:24

that's crazy only like? Only

1:36:27

like Less than 1% of the

1:36:29

prison population would ever face that that's

1:36:32

like extreme isolation And

1:36:35

I'm thinking Now it

1:36:37

can't be I have to be assessed. So

1:36:40

obviously they assessed me there. I

1:36:42

was in the SIG For

1:36:45

about seven and a half months and

1:36:48

Then they said that yes, it's been approved

1:36:50

that you're gonna go to Woodhill for

1:36:53

further assessment So

1:36:56

I was on full

1:36:58

PPE. That's again protective.

1:37:01

I was on the seven-man envelope and I

1:37:04

was double ratchet I Then

1:37:07

it was crazy when I went when I

1:37:09

stepped onto the unit on the CSC It

1:37:14

was so demoralizing It

1:37:17

feels like You Can

1:37:21

even ask you when he came to see me like him

1:37:23

and his father came to see me in Belmarsh and how

1:37:25

I was caged up It

1:37:27

was so demoralizing for the spirit It

1:37:31

just felt I felt so much

1:37:33

weight on my shoulder It

1:37:35

was this and they put me on

1:37:37

an extreme regime They

1:37:40

said that I was manipulative They

1:37:43

said I suffer with glib. That

1:37:45

means our words come easily by your

1:37:47

insincere They said I had psychopathic tendencies

1:37:50

and they said that I was one of

1:37:52

the arm leading leading

1:37:54

figures of the Muslim way gang and What

1:37:57

they wanted to start doing now is removing the

1:38:00

leaders and putting them into solitary

1:38:02

confinement. So I was one

1:38:04

of them that they classified as influential

1:38:08

within the system, the dispersal system.

1:38:12

So my earliest memory, I

1:38:15

went there, the officers were harsh when

1:38:18

I was there. They

1:38:20

were very skilled and drilled.

1:38:23

You can see their movements were

1:38:25

very calculated in the sense

1:38:28

of they knew exactly. And

1:38:30

let's not beat around the bush. They've always

1:38:32

dealt with many, many dangerous people. So now

1:38:34

these are the officers, I call them like

1:38:36

the SAS of officers. These are

1:38:38

the ones that will take you down. And

1:38:41

no one's going to complain because you

1:38:43

are now considered out of the, there's

1:38:46

about 50 of us as the most

1:38:48

dangerous prisoners in the

1:38:51

whole entire country. So

1:38:54

it's not something light and

1:38:57

they're not taking it like, so one of the

1:38:59

rulings that they had, I couldn't have, I couldn't

1:39:01

have my trainers, I couldn't have my toothbrush. I

1:39:03

didn't have a pen, no television.

1:39:05

You had to earn all those things slowly

1:39:08

but gradually. And I remember

1:39:11

being placed in my cell, looking

1:39:15

around and I

1:39:18

was thinking, I'm

1:39:23

not going to deal with this.

1:39:25

And then I remembered that when I was younger, I was

1:39:27

always socially excluded, like in

1:39:30

primary school in the headmaster's office, had

1:39:33

to do my work there. Then in

1:39:35

secondary school in the headmaster's

1:39:38

office, always, I'm thinking, I

1:39:41

can actually do this. But

1:39:43

then there was moments, people

1:39:45

asked me, so what was the hardest time? It weren't

1:39:48

so much the

1:39:50

solitary confinement. It

1:39:52

was the attitude and behavior that

1:39:56

came with being in solitary confinement. It

1:39:58

was so cold. And

1:40:01

they said, so

1:40:03

the way that I looked at, what kept me going

1:40:05

was four things. Obviously,

1:40:10

my faith, my belief in God, my

1:40:12

family and friends, patience

1:40:15

and discipline. Why I say

1:40:17

belief in God? Because

1:40:20

in my faith and even in Christian belief as well,

1:40:22

it says that God never gives you a burden greater

1:40:24

than what you can bear. Family

1:40:27

and friends, I

1:40:29

would put, united

1:40:32

we stand, divided we fall.

1:40:35

So they gave you that kind of spark. I

1:40:38

would say, when I said

1:40:40

patience, the peace of mind is

1:40:42

obtained by being patient. And

1:40:44

I would say discipline, the words I teach to

1:40:46

a wise man and the enemy to the full.

1:40:49

So these are the kind of principles that I kind of

1:40:51

held onto. But it was

1:40:53

something that I was

1:40:56

reading and it allowed me to

1:40:58

laugh at myself. It

1:41:01

was two books actually, conversation with myself, with

1:41:04

Nelson Mandela, when

1:41:06

all the trials and tribulations that he went through, and

1:41:09

the times when he was in solitary confinement. And

1:41:12

there was another lady as well. She was

1:41:14

accused of being a part of the Muslim

1:41:17

Brotherhood, which was a band

1:41:19

organization in Egypt, and she was tortured.

1:41:22

They'd done many horrific things to her, and

1:41:24

especially her being a woman, we probably know

1:41:27

what they'd also done to her as well, which was

1:41:29

to describe her own. Horrified,

1:41:33

listeners. And

1:41:35

it was something that she said though. She

1:41:38

said that the final insult they'd done was they

1:41:40

chopped off one of her hands, and

1:41:43

then they paraded her to the people, like, look what we've

1:41:45

done to this woman. And

1:41:47

she started to laugh, so they thought that she lost her

1:41:49

mind. And

1:41:51

she said this, and it always stuck with me, and I'm always going to

1:41:53

repeat this to the day I die. She said,

1:41:56

the sweetness of faith has allowed me to forget

1:41:59

the bitterness of faith. pain and

1:42:02

then I said that's what my what

1:42:04

my friend John Wayne used to say is he used to be

1:42:06

a traveler that was in isolation as well he said give your

1:42:08

head a wobble I said I give my head a

1:42:10

wobble and I just said you know what I

1:42:13

can do this but

1:42:15

it was horrible though because at times as

1:42:17

well and especially when your there

1:42:19

was one particular officer and

1:42:23

he took a great dislike into me I understand that

1:42:25

he lost his comrades in the war but

1:42:27

first and foremost is we're not in the war second

1:42:30

years were I'm not in for terrorists terror

1:42:32

related incidences everybody knows this I'm

1:42:35

from Patmore and I'll say this ox

1:42:37

loo so

1:42:39

so I don't

1:42:41

know what you're talking about but he was thinking you

1:42:43

want to take our jobs you want to take our

1:42:46

women and everything and he kept on that so I've

1:42:48

put in a complaint saying that look a

1:42:51

situation is gonna happen I feel unfair of my I

1:42:53

feel in in favor of my personal

1:42:56

safety and

1:43:00

then one day a situation

1:43:04

happened and I lashed

1:43:06

out also

1:43:08

taking into consideration that I'm still

1:43:10

now going to court for the

1:43:13

throat being you know the gentleman whose

1:43:15

throat was caught plus the other officers

1:43:17

that were injured now this is a

1:43:19

third case they've all combined it so

1:43:24

what they done was I was fighting with them I didn't

1:43:26

know the extent of my injuries until

1:43:29

then I was taken

1:43:31

to one of the cells within two days

1:43:35

I was then moved

1:43:37

to full sudden sick there

1:43:40

they were very serious down that sick um

1:43:44

they were waiting for me I knew I was looking to get

1:43:46

a paste in but

1:43:48

then they saw the extent like for some reason I

1:43:51

was kind of struggling to take my top off when

1:43:54

they saw my ribs they said we're

1:43:56

not taking responsibility for this game

1:43:59

x-rayed Then

1:44:01

they said something like fractured ribs and so

1:44:03

forth. Oh wow.

1:44:08

There was a lot

1:44:10

of ill treatment, especially even in

1:44:12

the seg, in the segs and

1:44:14

I was being moved around so remember my court

1:44:16

cases got in. But there

1:44:19

was some advice as well. I

1:44:21