1:25

Hello fellow

1:25

armchair historians, Anne Marie

1:28

here. Today you get to hear part

1:28

two of my interview with mudlark

1:33

Ana Barcelo about her years

1:33

foraging along the foreshore for

1:37

remnants of the lives of

1:37

everyday people, breadcrumbs

1:41

that lead to snapshots of the

1:41

past, bringing into sharper

1:44

focus, the common place for the

1:44

times routines of ordinary

1:49

people, Ana is a crafty

1:49

historian able to spin an

1:53

engaging narrative around each

1:53

artifact she finds, you know,

1:59

one of the things you've talked

1:59

about, which I think is the

2:01

thing, it's that tangibility of

2:01

touching the past, and who was

2:06

the last person that held that

2:06

item in their hand, and it fell

2:11

away from them. And this is the

2:11

first time it's like, it's

2:14

almost like being in a time

2:14

machine, right like that, to be

2:18

able to touch that history and

2:18

imagine it, and you have a very

2:23

good imagination, the way that

2:23

you've drawn out some of, you

2:26

know, the ideas about the pins,

2:26

for example, that was amazing.

2:30

You know, it just it does seem

2:30

like it takes a special, not a

2:35

special but a certain kind of

2:35

person to appreciate that. So

2:41

like, I have this great nephew,

2:41

Finley, who is nine years old,

2:46

and he loves the old things. And

2:46

I'm like, Thank you, God, for

2:52

one child out of all of the, you

2:52

know, great nieces and nephews

2:56

that I have that he is obsessed,

2:56

and my daughter, her eyes glaze

3:02

over when I start talking about

3:02

this stuff. So I'm getting to

3:05

something I'm not sure what it

3:05

is. But Are any of your kids

3:09

interested in this?

3:11

So my children,

3:11

when I started my blog, we were

3:13

really young. And so at the

3:13

beginning, I could brag I had

3:17

because I'm a single parent, I

3:17

couldn't leave them at home, I

3:19

had to bring them with me. So I

3:19

bribed them, then they do it for

3:23

a doughnut when they were like

3:23

eight, you know, that was really

3:25

easy, I could get away with a

3:25

lot, then it went up to sort of

3:28

pizzas, then Lego box sets, they

3:28

actually had to cash pay them to

3:35

come with me. And now we're at

3:35

this time where they can

3:38

actually stay at home. And also

3:38

they have friends and their

3:42

friends come round. And if they

3:42

a lot of their friends love my

3:45

malarkey objects and want to

3:45

know more about them, and offer

3:49

I can entice my children to come

3:49

out with me if their friends

3:52

come along, too. But I think

3:52

there's there are different ways

3:55

to appreciate my blocking

3:55

objects. You know, I appreciate

3:59

the way they make me connect

3:59

with the past. I know that other

4:01

people who appreciate them

4:01

because of the way they look or

4:04

how they're made, you know, who

4:04

appreciate the the methods of

4:08

production of pottery over time,

4:08

for example. So there are

4:11

different ways of connecting

4:11

with these objects that you find

4:14

mud locking. There's another way

4:14

that I connect, which which I

4:17

always find peculiar, but it

4:17

really brings things alive for

4:21

me, which is whenever I pick up

4:21

smashed pottery, I imagine I

4:26

imagine someone's throwing it

4:26

against a wall in a shouting

4:29

match. And for some reason, it

4:29

makes me think about anger

4:32

people in the past having

4:32

emotions, or you find rings, for

4:36

example, that have been lost or

4:36

cufflinks. cufflinks are always

4:40

falling out of gentleman sleeves

4:40

in the 18th century. And every

4:44

time I find a cufflink, I hear

4:44

them swearing when they get

4:47

home. Again, and I don't know

4:47

why but there's something about

4:53

those petty everyday emotions

4:53

much more than the sort of grand

4:57

emotions of battle that really

4:57

make me connect. And that is

5:02

something that mud locking has

5:02

brought for me i you actually

5:06

hear the Irit feel the

5:06

irritation in my own body. And

5:10

also, I think it's interesting

5:10

to think about the traces that

5:13

we're leaving behind, and what

5:13

the modern day rubbish says

5:18

about us, you know, how will

5:18

other people read us and read

5:20

our history. So for example, on

5:20

the foreshore, there's a lot of

5:25

plastic, you know, and I often

5:25

think there's a lot of Tampax

5:28

applicators, you know, tampon

5:28

applicators, which are obviously

5:32

really unpleasant. But at the

5:32

same time, I'm really aware that

5:36

if I found one of those in 200

5:36

years time, I think it was the

5:39

most fascinating Oh, my Goodness

5:39

me. This is what they did in the

5:44

21st century. I can't believe

5:44

it. So I find that I try to I'm

5:49

trying to approach the world in

5:49

that way to make the rubbish

5:51

seamless, disgusting. And I

5:51

always pick up children's

5:54

plastic toys as well. There's a

5:54

particular spot where they

5:57

always wash up. And there's

5:57

something about those toys and

6:01

how they connect with the little

6:01

toys that I found from the past

6:04

and little tiny children's plate

6:04

made out of pewter, for example,

6:09

these little toys that make you

6:09

realize that there were children

6:14

who were loved by their mothers

6:14

who were given little to toys to

6:17

play with. And they were there

6:17

in the past. And they're there

6:20

now that we have, where we have,

6:20

we have there's a continuity of

6:24

feeling and emotion between us

6:24

all.

6:27

Yeah. That's

6:27

amazing.

6:30

So I know that you're very interested in me finding objects that will tell a

6:32

particular story and connect to

6:35

particular people. Now, a lot of

6:35

the objects I find, are older.

6:40

So if you get to Victorian

6:40

times, they're more likely to be

6:43

inscribed with someone's name,

6:43

or in the 20th, early 20th

6:47

century, like a dog tag, for

6:47

example, much easier to trace. A

6:51

lot of these older objects are

6:51

harder to connect to

6:55

individuals, except for the

6:55

traders tokens I've mentioned

6:59

before, which will give the name

6:59

of a shop and a shopkeeper. And

7:02

through that you can often

7:02

investigate their whole life.

7:05

And when I've tried to

7:05

investigate really modern

7:07

objects and got nowhere I found

7:07

this elite watch recently that

7:11

had only been lost about six

7:11

years ago and tried to what I

7:15

wanted to find out why it was in

7:15

the tabs. You know, it was a

7:17

story of how it ended up there.

7:17

You know, how did things end up

7:21

in the water, I imagined it was

7:21

something nefarious, I got

7:25

nowhere at all, despite ringing

7:25

absolutely everybody and writing

7:29

to the watch manufacturer,

7:29

because it was a limited, a

7:31

limited edition watch. But I can

7:31

understand the image, there is

7:35

something you know, really

7:35

exciting about being able to

7:39

attach an object to a person,

7:39

and to follow it on its journey.

7:43

But when they're just anonymous

7:43

objects, they still have this

7:47

life of their own, as I've

7:47

described.

7:50

So I've also

7:50

seen you in videos where you go

7:53

to bottle dumps. So you don't

7:53

just you don't just mudlark

8:02

bottle digging is

8:02

really well bottled it is quite

8:04

interesting. Just because the

8:04

whole notion of there being this

8:10

massive population explosion and

8:10

disposable goods in the 19th

8:14

century, and people having to

8:14

decide, you know, how do we get

8:17

rid of all this waste, and

8:17

particularly in London with all

8:20

these people, you know, having

8:20

to ship the waste elsewhere. And

8:23

often the waste went to a brick

8:23

makers because most of it was

8:27

made up of ash. And so the brick

8:27

makers and took on the job of

8:31

getting rid of the rubbish so

8:31

that they could use the ash to

8:34

make the bricks and you'll often

8:34

find old kind of bottle dumps

8:37

near old brick works. So there

8:37

is something exciting about

8:42

finding some of these bottles.

8:42

And there is something always

8:45

exciting about unearthing

8:45

treasure. For me personally, I

8:51

love being near water. And

8:51

there's something about the

8:56

jumbled up pneus of the Thames,

8:56

where Roman artifacts can exist

9:02

next to artifacts that were lost

9:02

1500 years later, that I find

9:07

really exciting in a way that

9:07

the dump doesn't quite move me.

9:13

I mean, it's lovely to be out

9:13

with friends looking for these

9:15

objects, but the Earth doesn't

9:15

excite me as much as the water.

9:20

However, I do like looking for

9:20

sea glass. Because I mean, this

9:24

seems to be such a niche

9:24

interest, once you get the

9:27

cigar. So you know the cigars

9:27

has come from a nearby bottle

9:30

making factory that was up in

9:30

the late Victorian times, you

9:33

can then spend quite some time

9:33

trying to connect the little

9:36

tiny bits of colored glass to a

9:36

particular type of bottle. Yes,

9:41

this was a poisoned bottle. I

9:41

mean, sometimes I think I can't

9:44

believe I'm doing this. But

9:44

there's a certain pleasure to be

9:46

had in that just that matching

9:46

of this little object to these

9:50

bottles. But yes, I find the

9:50

notion of all this excess trash

9:57

generated by all these Londoners

9:57

at this time of industrial

10:01

expansion quite interesting.

10:03

I gather up

10:03

things wherever I go, like I'm

10:06

apparently a natural mud Lurker

10:06

because I'm always looking in

10:09

the dirt and finding things. I

10:09

live in a National Historic

10:13

Landmark District in Colorado.

10:13

And I mean, our history here

10:19

goes back to you know, the 1850s

10:19

and so I'm always picking up

10:24

like broken bits of glass and

10:24

pottery, and I've always admired

10:30

like when I watched Nicola

10:30

White's YouTube videos, how she

10:33

has all her things around her.

10:33

And what you just showed me like

10:37

I'm obsessed with your shelf

10:37

that you were showing me so this

10:41

past Christmas, my boyfriend and

10:41

I we have this old family curio

10:47

cabinet and we moved it upstairs

10:47

and I finally have my shelf that

10:52

I have all those little things

10:52

that I find in it. And it just

10:58

it's a weird thing. It makes me

10:58

feel complete. When people come

11:01

into my house, they look at it.

11:01

And I've always said about my

11:05

podcast is sad. You know, I do

11:05

believe that history is the

11:09

touchstone to meaning a

11:09

meaningful conversation. And

11:14

that's why like my blogs, I love

11:14

talking to my blogs. because you

11:18

intuitively get that. And

11:18

there's so much to learn and to

11:22

talk about it is a rabbit hole

11:22

of history that, like you said,

11:26

you bring something home and

11:26

it's, there's this item and you

11:29

learn about it. And then you end

11:29

up learning about a bunch of

11:31

other things that might not have

11:31

to do with that item. You know,

11:34

like false teeth from 200 years

11:34

ago, I get why you do what you

11:40

do. And I love it. And I love

11:40

that you are so willing to share

11:44

it with my audience. Thank you.

11:44

Is there any questions that I

11:49

didn't ask you that you want to

11:49

talk about

11:52

that other

11:52

categories of objects that I

11:55

just find fascinating because of

11:55

what they've told me about the

11:59

past, for example, and I'm

11:59

showing you here on my on my

12:03

screen, actually, but

12:03

unfortunately, listeners, you

12:05

can't see it. It's a little

12:05

tiny, tin glaze pot from the

12:09

17th century, very small, and I

12:09

found it on a very low tide. And

12:13

what it is, is an apothecary

12:13

pot. So it's a little jar that

12:18

was used by basically chemists

12:18

in the late 17th century to give

12:25

treatments to people of the

12:25

middling class. So if you were

12:30

poor, you couldn't afford this

12:30

sort of treatment, you went to

12:32

something called a cunning man

12:32

or woman, as essentially a

12:35

traditional healer or witch

12:35

doctor, you go for a spell. So a

12:39

real treatment from an

12:39

apothecary would have been put

12:41

in this pot. And I was really

12:41

fascinated, I thought, oh, look

12:46

and find out what apothecaries

12:46

did. And I was very, in

12:50

particular, interested by their

12:50

ingredients. And what I

12:53

discovered was they had these

12:53

most marvelous ingredients. They

12:56

had things like sparrows, brain,

12:56

and lion fat. And then there was

13:01

a whole craze for a very long

13:01

time for something called

13:05

Mamiya. Which is actually

13:05

desiccated mummy, as in Egyptian

13:11

mummy. And they apparently had

13:11

all these incredible properties.

13:16

It could cure tuberculosis,

13:16

everybody wanted it. And I find

13:21

that really interesting because

13:21

it made me realize that people

13:24

in that era were quite

13:24

cosmopolitan, you know, you

13:26

think of people in the past are

13:26

sort of huddling around not

13:28

having a notion of the outside

13:28

world. But actually, they knew

13:32

about Egyptian mummies. They

13:32

knew that they existed, they

13:36

knew that they had these magical

13:36

powers that could transform your

13:39

health. And at about the time

13:39

that this pot was made, which

13:43

is, as I said, late 1600s, that

13:43

apparently, Mumia had fallen

13:48

into disrepute, because some

13:48

people were actually a

13:53

desiccating, body, other sorts

13:53

of bodies, and passing it off as

13:58

Egyptian mummies. And so in the

13:58

end, people thought the meal,

14:02

you know, because it was too

14:02

risky to take because it wasn't

14:04

a real object. Eventually,

14:04

pharmacists, apothecary stopped

14:07

using it. But I just felt that

14:07

was just extraordinary that from

14:11

that little object, you got a

14:11

view of the kind of objects that

14:16

were coming into people's lives

14:16

in this sort of extraordinary

14:19

cosmopolitan worldview that they

14:19

might have had.

14:23

That is

14:23

amazing. That's a lovely little

14:25

pot to

14:26

taste a lovely

14:26

little pot to I mean, there's

14:28

lots all the objects are like

14:28

that they all spark these sort

14:32

of extraordinary stories, even

14:32

something very humble like this,

14:36

this little green tops, it looks

14:36

a little kind of green bit of

14:41

pottery would fit on the end of

14:41

my thumb, it's got like a little

14:43

nipple on top. What's that you

14:43

think when you find it for the

14:46

first time, what it actually is,

14:46

is a top of a Tudor money box.

14:50

And they were used in the

14:50

theatres on the south bank of

14:54

the river, at the end of the

14:54

1500s, the beginning of the

14:57

1600s to collect money for all

14:57

those shows, like Shakespeare's

15:01

Globe, you know, it could have

15:01

been a pot from a Shakespeare

15:04

play, and people will go in and

15:04

they put their penny into the

15:08

slot of this box. At the end of

15:08

the day, the pot was smashed.

15:12

And then the money was pocketed

15:12

by the by the box office. And I

15:15

think that's, that's why there's so many of them on the foreshore. But you think my

15:17

goodness me, and then through

15:20

that, you realize that actually,

15:20

for a long time, all the sinful

15:23

occupations were on the south

15:23

bank of the river, people had to

15:26

cross the river to get that, you

15:26

know, sin was in a specially

15:30

confined area. And I found that

15:30

quite interesting because when I

15:33

used to live in Nigeria, I

15:33

remember going to the north once

15:36

and there was a sort of sinful

15:36

Christian area actually. And

15:40

that was also cordoned off from

15:40

the rest of the Surya run part

15:44

of the city. So I find it just

15:44

amazing sort of parallel to

15:48

think that there was this

15:48

cordoned off world 400 years ago

15:52

in London.

15:53

I love where

15:53

you you bring the conversation

15:55

and I love your enthusiasm, and

15:55

I'm hearing it in sound bites,

15:59

so I'm really excited about

15:59

that. I don't know I'm jealous

16:03

because you get to live that

16:03

life. Like if I had a life to

16:07

live, it would be being obsessed

16:07

with the tide and going to the

16:11

foreshore. I'm coming in May. So

16:11

I'm coming in May at the end of

16:15

May the beginning of June. and I

16:15

don't get to really think about,

16:19

well, when's the best time of

16:19

year to come? When's the tide

16:21

going to be this or that or the

16:21

other? And I imagine over time,

16:25

you just intuitively get a sense

16:25

of when the best times to go,

16:31

are there different places to

16:31

go, that you feel are better at

16:36

certain times to find things, or

16:36

how do you decide where you're

16:39

gonna go on the foreshore?

16:43

Well, now, a lot

16:43

of it has to do with because

16:46

there's more people going on the

16:46

foreshore and I prefer it when

16:49

there's less people, I tend,

16:49

where I go, often is often

16:53

directed by how poppin I think a

16:53

particular site might be at that

16:57

time of day, that determines

16:57

where I go. And then there spots

17:00

I think, a good to look at when

17:00

the tide is very low. Because I

17:03

think there might be areas in

17:03

the exposed mud with the rarely

17:07

exposed mud. And there are other

17:07

areas when I know that you might

17:10

find stuff sort of up the back

17:10

wall, you know, thrown up

17:13

amongst a shingle. So that sort

17:13

of that sort of other

17:17

considerations that I make when

17:17

I decide where to go. And also

17:21

sometimes it's just random, you

17:21

think, maybe I'll go to IKEA and

17:24

stop off on the foreshore on the

17:24

way, it's on the way. It's all

17:27

that route.

17:30

So you asked

17:30

me what do I do for a living?

17:33

Obviously, my blogging is your

17:33

hobby or passion? Do you have a

17:39

vocation that you do aside from

17:39

my blogging? And how do you fit

17:42

all that together?

17:44

No, I did for a

17:44

very long time. So I was a

17:47

journalist for a long time. I

17:47

was a, as I mentioned, as a

17:50

foreign correspondent in Africa

17:50

for a very long time, which was

17:52

a really wonderful job. But for

17:52

most of the time, when I'm not

17:56

mad larking, I am a full time

17:56

parent. At the moment.

18:02

Hopefully, I'll go back to

18:02

journalism one day, because I

18:04

very much love it.

18:06

Interests interesting. What do you do with your objects when you bring them

18:08

home?

18:13

I clean them,

18:13

which is a really tedious and

18:16

filthy process, it really annoys

18:16

the children. They say please

18:20

don't do it in the kitchen sink,

18:20

please don't do it in the

18:22

kitchen, they begged me

18:22

repeatedly, it's really hard not

18:25

to do it in the kitchen. Because

18:25

it's so convenient. I dump stuff

18:28

in the garden and eventually get

18:28

around to cleaning it. And then

18:31

I thought it and the things that

18:31

I decided to keep and not

18:34

returned to the foreshore. When

18:34

I renovated my kitchen, I

18:37

actually renovated the whole

18:37

kitchen around shells, which I

18:40

had specially built, just so I

18:40

could display my fines. And so I

18:45

sought those objects onto those

18:45

shelves. And I know that other

18:49

mud locks have other ways of of

18:49

displaying their objects at

18:52

home. The pullout drawers from

18:52

the old Victorian cabinets are

18:56

very popular. Some people

18:56

unfortunately, unfortunately for

19:00

them, they come to my house and

19:00

they're terribly jealous, I've

19:02

got my finds out because their

19:02

partners won't allow them to

19:05

have their objects on display.

19:05

Because I think they just think

19:09

this is honestly why would I

19:09

want a load of bottles from a

19:12

rubbish tub in my kitchen is

19:12

what I think they feel. And when

19:15

they come to my house, I've seen

19:15

a couple of people who look kind

19:18

of so woeful, and then look at

19:18

my shelves, if only I could have

19:21

my stuff out. But they're not

19:21

allowed to you by their partner.

19:25

So I think all of us have

19:25

different ways of sorting and

19:28

keeping our fines and some

19:28

people are very, very selective.

19:31

They like to keep it terribly

19:31

small. And you'd like they'd

19:34

like to keep only the most

19:34

perfect things. And other people

19:37

like to have this sort of

19:37

expensive collection that they

19:40

feel better reflects the

19:40

foreshore. So I think I'm

19:43

somewhere in the middle. Okay,

19:44

I was gonna

19:44

ask you. So do you have displays

19:48

throughout your house or just in

19:48

your kitchen?

19:51

I only have that

19:51

display. I'm trying to be

19:54

somewhat selective. I have find

19:54

scattered around the house. But

19:58

my my main display is in my

19:58

kitchen and I do judge people

20:01

when they come in. If someone

20:01

comes in and they don't notice

20:04

my display, I think why did you

20:04

display? I used to be exactly

20:08

the same. I used to feel that

20:08

way about books. If people came

20:11

into my house. Well, I used to

20:11

have many more books than I do

20:13

now. And they didn't look at my

20:13

books. I think well, why don't

20:16

you look at your books. Why

20:16

don't you want to know what I've

20:18

got to read? And so yeah, I can

20:18

be a little bit judgmental like

20:22

that. So I get thrilled when the

20:22

children bring their friends

20:25

around. And the friends that

20:25

gravitate towards my towards my

20:28

finds always get extra points

20:28

there

20:31

keepers for

20:31

friends that I love that. Well

20:35

that's like my nephew Finley

20:35

who, like I said, He's nine

20:39

years old, and he is obsessed by

20:39

his collections of coins and,

20:46

you know, toys that he's found

20:46

metal detecting. And just, he's

20:52

exactly how you described

20:52

yourself. That's exactly what he

20:55

does. He he collects them and

20:55

then he organizes them. And then

20:59

he pulls them out and when

20:59

people come to visit and he

21:02

likes to talk about his things

21:02

and kindred spirits, I totally

21:07

get it. So over the years you've

21:07

amassed this collection, and not

21:13

only that you've amassed this

21:13

knowledge of these items in the

21:17

He's histories. And then with

21:17

your imagination, you've taken

21:21

it to another place, which I

21:21

really connect with. So what do

21:25

you do? Aside from collecting?

21:25

How do you share this knowledge

21:31

in this history with other people.

21:35

So, there's a

21:35

really big community of mud

21:38

locks on Instagram. And it's a

21:38

really big and very supportive

21:42

community. So people tend to

21:42

post and then add to each

21:46

other's knowledge and share. And

21:46

that's been really interesting

21:50

also on Twitter and Facebook,

21:50

but Instagram has been the been

21:53

the main focus. So that that's

21:53

one one way that I share what I

21:57

find, but also in the last three

21:57

years have been these wonderful

22:02

exhibitions by mudlark in

22:02

central London during the Thames

22:06

festival. So the first one was

22:06

in 2019. And then there was

22:10

another one it skipped a year

22:10

because of locked down, there

22:13

was one in 2021 and 2022. And

22:13

the last one was brilliant. We

22:17

had an exhibition of our finds

22:17

in the Guild Hall in London, St.

22:21

Paul's Cathedral, the National

22:21

Maritime Museum. And it's

22:25

organized by Jason Sandy, the

22:25

last one who you had on your

22:28

podcast. So I've exhibited all

22:28

of those. And my friend who is a

22:34

lecturer in computational arts

22:34

design with this rather magical

22:39

machine, it's called a magical

22:39

McLaughlan machine, where you

22:42

can virtually mudlark, you put

22:42

your hand inside, and it appears

22:46

as if you're holding this object

22:46

in your hand. And it's a way of

22:50

people to connect with the

22:50

object. And after they put their

22:53

hand in, they often want to know

22:53

more about it. And then that's a

22:56

way of entering into my display.

22:56

And I've particularly I've

22:59

noticed that children love it.

22:59

Interestingly, neurodivergent

23:04

children really, really love it.

23:04

And actually, a teacher from a

23:08

specialist school for autistic

23:08

children asked me and my friend

23:11

to take our magical McLaughlin

23:11

machine along to his school and

23:15

try it out on the kids there.

23:15

And they were really, really

23:18

keen. It was fascinating. And I

23:18

said to the kids afterwards, how

23:22

did you find that and they sort

23:22

of, I can't speak for the

23:25

neurotypical people. But for us,

23:25

it was absolutely wonderful,

23:29

which I thought was brilliant.

23:29

And I think there's something

23:31

about the immediacy of this, of

23:31

these objects, and also handling

23:36

the objects because you pass

23:36

around amongst the students. And

23:40

it's been a way for them to

23:40

connect with history and a

23:43

really manageable portion. It's

23:43

not abstract. It's not like

23:48

history was when I was at

23:48

school, and it was just this

23:50

remote thing. It's something

23:50

that comes up very close. And

23:54

I've been to a few schools now.

23:54

And it's always been extremely

23:58

well received. And I hope to do

23:58

more of it. Because there's

24:01

something so exciting about

24:01

children's faces when they get

24:05

interested, and they want to

24:05

know more, and they find the

24:08

stories entertaining. And if you

24:08

throw in a bit of poo, which is

24:11

quite easy when you're talking

24:11

about the terms, you always get

24:14

them engaged. So I was showing a

24:14

little bit of poo story. And the

24:18

thing with a little bit

24:18

something disgusting, something

24:21

a little bit gruesome,

24:21

something, you know, something

24:23

that makes so go, Oh, that's so

24:23

revolting, you know, lice or poo

24:28

or something yucky?

24:29

Is there a place we can go and look at your, like a video of your

24:31

mudlark machine?

24:35

Oh, I think that

24:35

it probably if you scroll back

24:38

to Instagram, there is one I

24:38

think it would have been last

24:41

year sometime in 2021. I think

24:41

there's a video on there. Okay,

24:46

maybe I'll try and redo another

24:46

one at some point.

24:49

All right, I'm writing this down, because I link out Why do you think that

24:51

so many people have become

24:56

interested in mud larking?

24:59

I think one

24:59

really boring reason is that it

25:03

was has been presented as an

25:03

opportunity in the past few

25:06

years. So I think there's a

25:06

whole generation of people who

25:10

stumbled upon my blocking

25:10

themselves. And then from about

25:15

2018, there had been a couple of

25:15

books produced. And that

25:19

generated quite a lot of

25:19

publicity, and news articles and

25:22

TV programs. So I think then

25:22

people realized that it was

25:25

something that you could do, and

25:25

that gave permission to do it as

25:28

well. And that's encouraged very

25:28

many more people to go down to

25:33

the foreshore. It seems hard to

25:33

imagine. But actually,

25:36

previously, even when I started

25:36

my blocking, people didn't

25:40

really realize you could go down

25:40

to the foreshore if you went to

25:43

the South Bank, there will be

25:43

nobody down on the river at all.

25:47

It was completely empty. And I

25:47

remember at the beginning, when

25:50

I opened the gate, Creek open

25:50

and I'd walk down the steps,

25:54

people would stop and stare, and

25:54

they'd shout, what are you doing

25:57

down there? What are you doing?

25:57

And now it's become so popular

26:02

that they're shouting, what have

26:02

you found because everybody

26:05

knows about mud locking? I mean,

26:05

literally when I started, nobody

26:07

knew and that's not very long

26:07

ago. So I think that's the kind

26:11

of boring reason why it's become

26:11

popular. But the reason why it

26:15

sees people's imagination is

26:15

because It's a magical thing.

26:18

We're in the middle of a huge

26:18

international city. And yet

26:23

right in the heart of that city,

26:23

scattered on the ground, are all

26:27

these incredible relics from the

26:27

past, to tell you stories about

26:32

the past, and which anybody can

26:32

access, it's like crazy. It's

26:36

like a museum has exploded in

26:36

the middle of London. And

26:39

someone said, You go low down

26:39

and sort of loot it. I mean, I

26:43

don't loot is probably the wrong

26:43

word. Because of course, you're

26:45

recording all your fines, and

26:45

you're not stealing it, you're

26:47

not profiting from it. But it is

26:47

that kind of heady feeling. I

26:50

can't believe this stuff's here.

26:50

And I can pick it up. And I

26:54

think that's why but also, the

26:54

actual act of mud locking, is

26:58

quite meditative. I mean, that's

26:58

why I really loved it at the

27:02

beginning, you're down there by

27:02

yourself, by the water, there's

27:05

the sound of the water in the

27:05

middle of the city there the

27:08

sound of gold, I'm really have a

27:08

little bit of a thing about

27:11

seagulls, I really loved them, I

27:11

spent a lot of time taking

27:14

photographs of them. And you're

27:14

down there in this magical quiet

27:18

space, just searching. And you

27:18

never know what the lucky dip of

27:22

the foreshore is going to throw

27:22

up. So there's this wonderful

27:25

sort of random quality, you'll

27:25

never know what you get. And

27:29

then as more people have joined,

27:29

there's been more of a community

27:33

evolving. And actually, people

27:33

come from all sorts of different

27:37

walks of life. And yet we have a

27:37

common interest. And I have even

27:41

someone as antisocial as myself,

27:41

has made many friends. I'm

27:46

surprised how many friends I've

27:46

made, whose company I enjoy. We

27:50

just went to a mother walking

27:50

social pub meet recently and all

27:54

sat together and chatted about

27:54

our shared interests. It's a

27:57

really brilliant pastime based

27:57

on this magical premise that

28:05

treasure lies for all of the

28:05

city.

28:12

It's

28:12

interesting, because there's

28:14

people that I know from the UK

28:14

that I've said, My barking and

28:17

they don't know what it is, or

28:17

even from London. And then I get

28:22

to tell them, which I always

28:22

appreciate that launch into

28:26

telling what my knowledge is

28:26

about, you know, the Thames and

28:30

the tidal River and all those

28:30

things. And the thing I really

28:35

like about how it appears

28:35

anyways, is that that community,

28:40

there isn't a sense of

28:40

competition. There's just a

28:44

sense of passion, a mutual

28:44

passion, and desire to learn

28:50

more through other people's

28:50

experiences. And obviously, it's

28:54

an opportunity to talk about

28:54

what, what we've learned, right?

28:59

And it just, I love that energy.

28:59

And I think that's part of the

29:06

dynamic that makes it so

29:06

compelling. When I go to YouTube

29:12

or Instagram and participate in

29:12

the groups, it's that sense of

29:18

that shared interest in

29:18

connecting to the past and I

29:22

love that I just, it's basic, I

29:22

love it. And I love that you are

29:27

so passionate like I said

29:27

already in the the way you've

29:30

shared your knowledge and your

29:30

experiences. I really appreciate

29:35

that.

29:37

Well thank you.

29:37

It's been very enjoyable talking

29:40

to you,

29:40

Anna Brazil.

29:40

Oh, thank you so much for being

29:43

here. I have really enjoyed

29:43

talking to you and seeing your

29:47

collections.

29:49

Thank you so

29:49

much. Thank you for coming.

29:51

Thank you for appreciating my

29:51

collection that's very

29:54

important. was lovely to talk to

29:54

you and to meet you.

30:00

There you

30:00

have it on up or Zelo mudlark

30:04

and crafty historian. To find

30:04

out more about mud larking and

30:08

Ana, be sure to check out our

30:08

episode notes. Thanks for

30:12

joining us have a great week.

30:12

armchair historians is produced

30:17

by Belgian rabbit productions

30:17

hosted by Anne Marie cannon

30:21

music this week is strings by

30:21

gold Tiger sound editing and

30:25

designed by Anne Marie cannon