0:16

Thank you for

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0:19

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0:19

Marie Cannon, armchair

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both in the Episode Notes.

0:59

Today, in part two of my

0:59

interview with Paulus, the

1:03

cabaret geek, we go deep into

1:03

the bigger implications of

1:07

cabaret historically and today.

1:07

If you haven't done so already,

1:13

I strongly recommend you go back

1:13

and listen to part one. Check

1:18

out the Episode Notes to find

1:18

out more about Paulus and the

1:22

history of cabaret. Be sure to

1:22

stick around to the end of the

1:27

episode. For the big reveal of

1:27

policy singing the song tribe

1:33

from the forthcoming making a

1:33

palace. You won't want to miss

1:37

it.

1:58

My name is is from the

1:58

history of cabaret itself. And

2:03

it is and it's very weird. It

2:03

won't surprise anybody to hear

2:07

that my real name is Paul. And

2:07

I'm now called Paulus. And from

2:14

a very young age, we go around

2:14

to my friend's house. So one

2:18

particular friend called Michael

2:18

and his dad would answer the

2:21

door and in this very sort of

2:21

1980s, English jokey, Daddy

2:26

doesn't make any sense and never

2:26

explains their weird jokes way.

2:29

would call me call us the words

2:29

No, and then wander off. And

2:33

Michael would come to the door.

2:33

And I was like, what, what is

2:36

the word? Why am I being called

2:36

Paul as the witness and he would

2:38

never explain what it was when

2:38

we didn't have the internet back

2:40

then. So I never found out until

2:40

recently. And then fast forward

2:44

like 10 years and I meet my

2:44

friends there, Louise, who's

2:47

directing my current cabaret

2:47

show and is also a cabaret

2:50

performer herself. And she does

2:50

Latin at a posh school and I

2:53

went to and she starts calling

2:53

me pull this bang jewelers and I

2:57

was like, what's that name

2:57

again, like, I never elected to

3:00

be called this name, but it's

3:00

coming back again. And then I

3:03

moved to London and I went to

3:03

drama school and I lived with a

3:05

girl called Becky and she just

3:05

started to call me Paulus

3:08

Martinez, My surname is Martin.

3:08

And none of these things were

3:13

brought up by me I had never

3:13

tried to sort of get make this a

3:17

fit. We just kept coming back

3:17

again. And again and again when

3:21

I was 1020, Geneva, and then

3:21

about, I suppose six or seven

3:27

years ago, read this book by our

3:27

old Prime Minister john major.

3:33

You remember though it used to

3:33

be in the 90s. We had a prime

3:36

minister in the UK, who was

3:36

often caricature just being gray

3:40

and only liking to interpeace

3:40

because he was saved down. His

3:43

name was john major, but he

3:43

wrote a book about the history

3:47

of music hall. And he wrote it

3:47

partly because his father was a

3:52

music hall performer called Tom

3:52

major, or sometimes known as

3:59

Major Tom. And David berry got

3:59

the line, Ground Control to

4:06

Major Tom from seeing an old

4:06

poster for Tom majors Music Hall

4:12

act, he was magician It was a

4:12

magician and magician's

4:14

assistant that his secondary

4:14

system was john major's mother,

4:16

this sort in an old venue. And

4:16

that's how he came to write the

4:20

lines Ground Control to Major Tom.

4:23

So we know

4:23

that that's Yeah,

4:26

I read so I read this

4:26

book about the history of

4:28

cabaret. And six years ago, I

4:28

was very bored of my onstage

4:35

clown when I felt it had run its

4:35

course it done its job and I

4:39

liken my old onstage persona as

4:39

a host of these to a one of a

4:42

very eager puppy that wants

4:42

everybody to love them. And it

4:46

was very over that as I was

4:46

turning 40 I don't want to do

4:50

that anymore. Or this pleasing

4:50

people. I'm done with that. And

4:55

as I was morphing into Paulus

4:55

and finding this sort of cat

4:59

like you Yes, I'm fabulous. No,

4:59

you can't touch sort of attitude

5:02

in contrast, rich, which is what

5:02

I do when I'm hosting. I came

5:08

upon this part of the book,

5:08

which was about a French music

5:12

hall performer in the late

5:12

1800s, around 1888 as well, they

5:17

used to work both in France and

5:17

in London and this thing was

5:20

Paulus. Ah, and

5:24

it's back again that night is

5:24

back again. That's amazing.

5:28

So I don't

5:28

worry. Yeah,

5:31

yeah, so I've adopted it

5:31

from a dead Frenchman.

5:33

So 1880 is

5:33

that when we see the first

5:37

cabaret 1981

5:40

is the year that Rudolph

5:40

Salus opened the first lush and

5:44

while the Chateau itself lasted

5:44

until 1887, but it moved and

5:51

went up that road to the Walmart

5:51

in that time. So even even that

5:57

wasn't the same place. Yeah, and

5:57

then it just this amazing sort

6:01

of World Tour, sort of like, and

6:01

then it disappears from Paris

6:05

and then cabarets up in Hungary.

6:05

And then there's one over there

6:09

in Russia and there is in

6:09

Belgium, I believe, is part of

6:12

the street before it settles

6:12

into the 1920s in German

6:16

cabaret, or cabaret, cabaret

6:16

with a K and two T's on the end.

6:19

And this, this sort of Otto Dix

6:19

inspired aesthetic on the wall

6:25

was and again, that's very much

6:25

referred to in the movie of the

6:30

musical cabaret as well.

6:32

So where do

6:32

you see cabaret? Well, now Not

6:35

now, because we're in the

6:35

pandemic. But where is it being

6:40

done? Well, besides what you do,

6:46

that's not for me to say

6:46

that. I'm doing it well at all.

6:50

Not many places. If I'm

6:50

completely honest with you,

6:54

obviously, I'm based in London

6:54

and I have been now for 25 plus

6:59

years. And so my experience is

6:59

largely of London and the UK.

7:05

But I have to stay in spite of

7:05

that. And you know, having come

7:08

to the US to teach and try and

7:08

see what I could have the

7:13

cabaret scene performed in

7:13

Australia, and done the thing

7:17

there, Paris, Berlin, Nicaragua,

7:17

I think the people that are

7:24

doing it the most true to know

7:24

fourthwall a dialogue with the

7:29

audience, a platform, a dissent,

7:29

from the populist view, the

7:36

avant garde, the satirical, I do

7:36

believe it's in London, and I do

7:39

believe it's been in London for

7:39

a couple of decades. Now. A lot

7:43

of people don't want to

7:43

recognize us and have been

7:46

trying to ignore us for almost

7:46

20 years, I've gotten into

7:50

enormous arguments with me, you

7:50

know, critics and reviewers who

7:54

20 years ago, were writing

7:54

articles. You know, when we had

7:56

things like newspapers and

7:56

journalists in this country,

7:58

which we don't know, really,

7:58

we're writing articles saying

8:02

that cabaret is dead, and I'm

8:02

writing them in email going,

8:05

sorry, I just put one on last

8:05

night. And there's another one

8:08

on tomorrow night, which you

8:08

please stop saying why didn't

8:12

come and see what these people

8:12

are doing rather than saying, no

8:16

cabaret is dead. There's a huge

8:16

divide. And this is very

8:19

particular to America. There's

8:19

the Great American Songbook.

8:24

There's the songbook style of

8:24

cabaret there's two pretty

8:28

extremely glibly, you know,

8:28

people rocking up in their best

8:32

black dress singing the their

8:32

favorite songs, or the songs

8:36

they can sing best, which I

8:36

don't think of is cabaret that

8:39

may I think maybe that's more of

8:39

a cafe concept, which is pre

8:41

cabaret. And I don't think

8:41

anybody needs to hear your best

8:46

song. Most cabaret performers

8:46

the really famous cabaret

8:50

performers aren't the best

8:50

vocalists, but the best

8:54

storytellers. Okay. Marlena

8:54

Dietrich. Elaine Stritch, br

9:01

author, they are tremendous.

9:01

Writers Really? Yeah. Yeah. Can

9:05

Google the Google br for singing

9:05

or be Arthur cabaret? Oh my god.

9:13

Singing from Golden Girls. Yeah.

9:17

Oh, that's

9:17

just a shocking okay. I didn't

9:19

know that.

9:20

Right. Yeah, yeah. So

9:20

find be officine pirate Jenny.

9:25

One of the things I like to do

9:25

with my students, especially in

9:29

drama schools during the week

9:29

that I work with them. I play

9:32

them the same song I play them a

9:32

YouTube video of the same song

9:35

performed by five different

9:35

people. And pirate Jenny is a

9:38

very good example because

9:38

pyrogenic was written by Bertolt

9:41

Brecht for the Threepenny Opera,

9:41

and there is a video of Lottie

9:44

Lamia singing it to was Brookes

9:44

wife and one of the very first

9:48

people I believe to perform if

9:48

not the first person to perform

9:52

that song. There is the artist

9:52

version. There is Nina Simone's

9:57

version. Amanda Palmer's first

9:57

And, and taking your write up

10:03

today there's Sasha, the law of

10:03

drag races version and we watch

10:08

them all during the week and we

10:08

explore how you can make

10:12

something your own. And yeah,

10:12

from the same place that the

10:18

same origin. You know,

10:21

Tom Waits,

10:21

you know, he's him and his wife,

10:23

amazing songwriters. And I don't

10:23

know if you listen to Johnny

10:28

Cash, but he's covered quite a

10:28

few of his songs.

10:31

I just remember the name of it. That song we were talking about earlier. It's Martha.

10:35

Martha. Yeah.

10:39

And that's,

10:39

that's what people do with his

10:42

songs. And you did that with a

10:42

new coat of paint. Yeah, you

10:46

know, I love that idea of the

10:46

same song but making it your

10:51

own.

10:51

Yeah, absolutely. I

10:51

growing up in Kent, in a very

10:57

small minded, middle part of

10:57

middle England in a very small

11:01

minded period in history as

11:01

well. Very white, very

11:05

conservative, very curtain

11:05

twitching, and being very calm,

11:10

very feminine. What people would

11:10

probably now called queer. I

11:14

mean, they did then, but not as

11:14

a positive. It wasn't that it

11:19

wasn't a celebration. I didn't

11:19

want to sing songs for men or

11:24

boys. I wanted to sing the songs

11:24

that Bette Midler and Liza

11:27

Minnelli and Chita Rivera was

11:27

singing, they were the people

11:31

that the characters that spoke

11:31

to me and they were the songs

11:33

that spoke to me and when you I

11:33

trained in musical theater, and

11:38

a lot of people I meet in

11:38

cabaret come from the musical

11:41

theater. slipper, which we spend

11:41

our lives as musical theater

11:45

performers being put into little

11:45

boxes, as far as what your your

11:50

certain weight. So you're the

11:50

you're the funny best friend, or

11:53

you're asserting height. And

11:53

even though we think you're

11:57

great, you're too tall to play

11:57

opposite the leading man here,

12:01

or, you know, age or sex or

12:01

sexuality. It's the tick box

12:06

exercise. And I know a lot of

12:06

people that work in the West

12:10

End, and often, I'm very sorry

12:10

to say this, but it is true.

12:14

Often, you know, who gets the

12:14

roll in lame is a Rob will be

12:18

down to whether they fit the

12:18

existing costume or not, as

12:22

opposed to whether they are

12:22

better than the other person

12:25

left in the final two on that.

12:25

And that's business. And that's

12:29

commerce. And that's the way the

12:29

world is. But with cabaret, none

12:32

of that matters. And often, I

12:32

think people are attracted to

12:38

our world, from musical theater,

12:38

not just nice, good data,

12:41

because we celebrate the

12:41

difference. We celebrate the

12:45

diverse we celebrate the free,

12:45

we let our freak flag fly.

12:50

So is it

12:50

possible that all of that is

12:54

characteristic, a distinctive

12:54

characteristic of cabaret is

12:57

that it is going to ruffle the

12:57

feathers of the mainstream and

13:03

therefore the mainstream are

13:03

going to criticize it. So it

13:08

almost seems to me that from

13:08

what you've explained to me what

13:12

you've really covered a lot and

13:12

explained it very well is that

13:17

if the mainstream or whatever,

13:17

you know that the politicians or

13:22

whatever, Simon Cowell, if

13:22

they're criticizing it, then

13:26

that means that it's cabaret.

13:30

Yes, My work here is done. Yeah. Yeah,

13:34

I think I think what what's what

13:34

was angering is that there was

13:39

the suggestion that the quality

13:39

of what we're doing isn't good

13:43

enough. Where is the fact of the

13:43

content I think that most

13:47

naysayers have an issue with,

13:47

you know, to have the balls to

13:50

stick your head above the

13:50

parapet and say, I don't agree

13:53

with that. I don't want you to

13:53

wear that super dry outfit. So

13:57

this everybody else is wearing,

13:57

or I'm not going to be a

14:01

masculine male because I was

14:01

born with a penis, you know, I

14:05

don't have any desire to have my

14:05

Venus taken away, but nor do I

14:09

have any desire to act like a

14:09

bloke is supposed to act all the

14:14

time. I mean, who's the one

14:14

that's living in a cage here? If

14:19

we are, if we're dissenting,

14:19

again, I use that word very

14:24

deliberately from the majority.

14:24

And there's something that you

14:30

want to stay which is gonna be a

14:30

bit of a fly in the ointment,

14:35

then you can you can stay on

14:35

Twitter and do it anonymously

14:39

and hide behind your screen or

14:39

you could you could put on a

14:42

lash and and stand in a

14:42

spotlight and own in front of

14:48

people who know who you are, and

14:48

have the right to reply because

14:51

there won't be a fourth.

14:54

That's

14:54

brilliant. Well, you know, so,

14:57

George Floyd, I think you

14:57

probably are aware of that whole

15:01

evolution after his murder by

15:01

police officers. Somehow I'm

15:06

getting back to everything that

15:06

we're talking about. And I hope

15:09

I can meander back there. As a

15:09

white woman who grew up, my

15:12

father was a police officer. And

15:12

I grew up in a suburb of

15:16

Cleveland, Ohio, which was a

15:16

very white community. My father

15:19

was racist. And I, I do remember

15:19

him yelling at the TV and

15:26

raising his fists, and I would

15:26

go in the corner and cry because

15:32

there was so much hatred coming

15:32

out of him. And so I thought,

15:36

well, you know, that means that

15:36

I'm not racist. And what I

15:41

discovered after this last, I

15:41

mean, how many times do we have

15:44

to be reminded of how racist our

15:44

society is? I mean, it's all

15:48

rooted also in slavery. I mean,

15:48

you know, you don't recover from

15:53

that. And so there's something

15:53

about this last go around, that

15:59

really made me uncomfortable,

15:59

because there's a part of me

16:03

that when people are saying, Oh,

16:03

you know, systemic racism, blah,

16:07

blah, blah, for some reason, it

16:07

punctured into that racist part

16:11

of me this last time, and it was

16:11

really uncomfortable. And I knew

16:15

that I had to be in the

16:15

discomfort and own that, you

16:18

know, the discomfort that people

16:18

feel as a result of it. That is

16:22

a really good place to start

16:22

with yourself to become a more

16:26

authentic person, I think is

16:26

looking inside of ourselves. And

16:30

seeing, you know, I my best

16:30

friend is a gay man who's you

16:34

know, married to a lovely man,

16:34

Paul. And Paul always talks

16:38

about his homophobia. And I'm

16:38

like, What are you talking

16:42

about?

16:43

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh,

16:43

yeah, absolutely. So internal

16:46

homophobia? Absolutely.

16:48

So a lot.

16:48

Yeah. And I think it's about not

16:53

being one or the other. But

16:53

it's, it's, you know, for me,

16:58

the place that is going to help

16:58

me to grow is to be in that

17:00

discomfort. And it seems like

17:00

cabaret offers that in a lot of

17:04

ways.

17:05

Well, again, going right

17:05

back to Paris in the in the

17:08

1880s. The person who was who

17:08

was the owner, or the proprietor

17:12

or the manager was often the

17:12

emcee and the host on the stage

17:17

for a lot of these shows,

17:17

because, partly because for

17:21

financial reasons, you know, you

17:21

can't afford to pay a separate

17:23

compare. So people like Rudolph

17:23

Salus and a rusty blue on after

17:28

him who turned the shaft wire

17:28

into the middle the time, they

17:31

were extremely rude to their

17:31

customers. And the richer the

17:35

customer, the more famous or the

17:35

more genuine by the customer,

17:38

the ruder they were to them on

17:38

entry, and people thought that

17:42

it was a joke. And you know,

17:42

it's very well documented that

17:45

wasn't really a joke. It was a

17:45

tremendous amount of design.

17:48

Because, again, going back to I

17:48

really should have chosen 1881

17:51

is my Yeah. Going back right

17:51

there. The the coverings were,

17:56

firstly, for the for the artists

17:56

to gather and share ideas and

18:02

opinions and and creations. And

18:02

then it started to quickly be

18:06

opened up to people who were

18:06

fascinated by these people have

18:10

different opinion. And, and of

18:10

course, what you never really

18:13

know is whether somebody's

18:13

showing up because they're

18:15

fascinated by your difference of

18:15

opinion and what are interested

18:19

in learning, whether they've

18:19

just come to point and laugh at

18:21

the monkey in the cage. And, and

18:21

you never know, which that's

18:27

going to be to this day, when

18:27

you step out on a stage of the

18:31

rise show a cabaret burlesque

18:31

show, I certainly don't anyway,

18:35

but speaking to no discomfort

18:35

and and what's going on in both

18:41

yours and my country. As far as

18:41

Black Lives Matter. We're also

18:45

having an enormous conversation

18:45

about women and women's voices

18:48

and being better represented and

18:48

the pay gap and all of that. In

18:53

January this year, I became a

18:53

podcast of my own, which is

18:57

called up your arts. And it's a

18:57

45 minute conversation which I

19:02

co host with a woman, Emily who

19:02

is a burlesque teacher, and she

19:09

employs me to host her cabaret

19:09

show as well. And, and and a

19:13

guest, and that guests might be

19:13

a stand up comic or a burlesque

19:16

dancer or a fire eater, or what

19:16

have you and embarking upon

19:23

being the middle aged white man

19:23

in almost all of those

19:30

conversations, and being well

19:30

aware that the only thing I had

19:35

on my side is the fact that I'm

19:35

gay. Otherwise, the permission

19:40

to speak there's there's almost

19:40

It is not our time it is not it

19:46

is not the width of the middle

19:46

aged white man's time to speak.

19:49

Right is the time for other

19:49

people to speak and the fact

19:52

that I am queer, proudly queer

19:52

and different, is I think the

19:57

only reason why I am still

19:57

hosting things in sharing things

20:00

and comparing things. And if I

20:00

can move forward, giving a

20:05

spotlight and a platform to

20:05

people who don't feel that their

20:08

voices being heard or that feel

20:08

they are missed or under

20:11

represented, and I can use a

20:11

guess my power, being a white

20:16

middle aged man, for that kind

20:16

of good, then then there's

20:21

something really promising about

20:21

my potential future as a cabaret

20:27

host and facilitator. And I just

20:27

want to keep an eye on making

20:33

sure that other people have the

20:33

thing you know, and get the

20:39

spotlight, you were speaking

20:39

earlier on, about about the

20:44

future, and about how cabaret

20:44

may shape it. And you know,

20:47

we've already lost tremendously

20:47

old, tremendously well loved

20:53

theatres up and down this

20:53

country, and we're gonna lose a

20:57

lot more. They are stunningly

20:57

beautiful historical buildings

21:03

with hundreds of years of

21:03

theatrical history in them and

21:07

how government could not care a

21:07

shift. It's almost like they

21:13

wish this had happened earlier.

21:13

And the low fine, easy to throw

21:21

up in a tent or a basement or

21:21

cellar nomadic cheeping cheerful

21:27

spit and sawdust nature of

21:27

cabaret. Here's the good news.

21:32

Here's the lemonade, could well

21:32

be the path back to impart at

21:38

least, to the arts in this

21:38

country, and possibly further

21:43

afield. I don't know because I'm

21:43

too busy going oh my god, but

21:46

let's just close down.

21:50

Well, that's what I love about England. I lived in London in 2012. Just

21:52

for three months, but it's all

21:58

the history everywhere you like

21:58

yeah,

22:00

great years to be here.

22:00

That's the Olympics, isn't it?

22:03

Yeah, but everything was under construction when I was before.

22:05

But um, it was. Yeah. And we we

22:12

were supposed to be coming in.

22:12

May we were coming for three

22:17

weeks. Because my fantasy is to

22:17

live in England for three months

22:20

out of the year, like I did in

22:20

2012. It's It's a hard thing to

22:24

figure out. But we were supposed

22:24

to come in not. May for three

22:28

weeks. And thank you COVID. But

22:28

I started a podcast. So there's

22:34

my lemonade, I guess.

22:36

Absolutely. Yeah.

22:38

But yeah, it

22:38

just breaks my heart when I hear

22:40

that because the history there.

22:40

That's the thing I love the most

22:44

you get off the tube station

22:44

Tower Hill. And if you walk the

22:48

right way see a Roman wall?

22:48

Yeah,

22:51

yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

22:51

Yeah, it's,

22:55

that's very sad.

22:56

Well, they wouldn't,

22:56

they wouldn't allow the building

22:58

to be bulldozed. Because we have

22:58

listed buildings in in the UK,

23:03

they can be grade two listed or

23:03

grade one listed building and so

23:06

they're protected. But as far as

23:06

when we talk about theatre being

23:10

dark when there's no production

23:10

in it, and and the entire

23:13

theatre industry has been dark

23:13

for almost entirely dark in the

23:19

whole of the UK for six months.

23:19

Yeah, yeah. And, and just

23:24

hearing on a daily basis that

23:24

another one won't reopen. Or

23:29

that pantomime, you know, we

23:29

have a huge, rich history of

23:34

pantomime in this country is

23:34

really one of the only places in

23:37

the world that pantomime

23:37

happens. And for a lot of

23:41

theater venues in the UK. I

23:41

mean, almost all I would say

23:45

especially regional theaters up

23:45

and down the country. The money

23:48

they make on a pantomime will

23:48

bankroll the rest of the year.

23:52

So even if you don't like

23:52

pantomime, there are a good few

23:56

people in the country that

23:56

don't. But you like to see an

24:01

Agatha Christie play or a

24:01

jukebox musical that's coming to

24:05

your town or whatever it or

24:05

stand up comedian that you love

24:07

from the TV or whatever they've

24:07

bankrolled, but the pantomime

24:10

has bankrolled those things. The

24:10

may may make a loss. So it's the

24:17

knock on effect is going to be

24:17

enormous. And it's going to take

24:23

years and years and years. And I

24:23

I will be very interested to see

24:30

which practitioners are suddenly

24:30

keen as mustard to be on a

24:35

cabaret stage, when it's the

24:35

only stage available to them,

24:38

because it's the one that can be

24:38

thrown back up or hers soon

24:41

enough. And they already are.

24:41

People are already performing

24:44

and cabaret again in London and

24:44

other parts of the UK as well.

24:48

And I myself will begin back on

24:48

stage with my new show about

24:52

Victoria wood who you probably

24:52

don't know, but she was a huge,

24:56

huge

24:57

I did a little bit of research. Yeah, yeah, that's Was it was part of

24:59

my rabbit hole and I did do a

25:02

little research who was a

25:02

comedian and she was an

25:05

entertainer a singer. Yeah.

25:06

Yeah, absolutely. And

25:06

interestingly enough, I I've

25:10

been in love with her since I

25:10

was 10. When I first saw

25:12

Victoria on on television, and

25:12

she came to prominence

25:17

originally in the 70s, through a

25:17

talent competition, not

25:21

dissimilar to the one I used to

25:21

judge on one of the judges say

25:26

this is the late 70s. on ITV

25:26

channel three. In our country,

25:30

one of the judges said of her

25:30

act, they said, This woman is

25:33

doing sophisticated cabaret, and

25:33

there's no such thing. So even

25:38

as far back as the late 70s, we

25:38

have this history of British

25:42

television talent judges issuing

25:42

the existence or the validity of

25:47

Cadbury as a genre war, Victoria

25:47

wood went on to be the most

25:50

beloved entertainer that this

25:50

country has, arguably, this

25:53

country has ever seen. Certainly

25:53

the most beloved female and

25:57

saying, this country's ever seen

25:57

and probably the most diverse

26:00

entertainer that this country's

26:00

ever seen. So I rest my case. So

26:05

I'm getting back on a cabaret

26:05

stage with a perspex glass. This

26:09

is the irony there is okay, a

26:09

fourth wall between me in the

26:13

audience later this month,

26:13

because we have to have a piece

26:16

of perspex glass between me and

26:16

then I just found out say I'm

26:20

very sad about it, but it's

26:20

getting on the stage and doing

26:24

the show is more important than

26:24

been arguing about a bit.

26:28

I'm excited to hear that you are getting back on the stage. I'm going to

26:30

ask the question, Where do we

26:33

see this in pop culture this

26:33

history?

26:36

I would suggest that you

26:36

look out for TV and movies that

26:41

are breaking the fourth wall.

26:41

And the most famous example

26:47

international example I think at

26:47

the moment is Deadpool the

26:50

movies at the Deadpool movies,

26:50

because he that character breaks

26:55

the fourth wall on a regular

26:55

basis in both the sequel and the

26:58

original. Have you had the TV

26:58

show? fleabag in the US?

27:03

I know. I

27:03

haven't watched it I you Did you

27:05

get it? Everybody keeps telling

27:05

me Yeah, you got to watch this.

27:08

You got to watch this. Okay, yes.

27:10

So Phoebe Waller bridge

27:10

made this this sitcom, I guess,

27:14

for want of a better phrase

27:14

called fleabag. And she breaks

27:17

the fourth wall on a regular

27:17

basis. And she talks directly to

27:20

the audience. But it's important

27:20

to note that she was not the

27:24

first person doing bad in this.

27:24

In this era, there is a person

27:28

of color, what is the prize,

27:28

they got overlooked, and a rich

27:31

white woman got instead called

27:31

Michaela Cole, and she's

27:36

amazing. And her first TV show

27:36

which isn't the best or the

27:41

second one better, but how

27:41

fessed up showed chewing gum

27:44

that was doing what fleabag did

27:44

a couple of years before. So I

27:50

would just say look out for

27:50

anything that's breaking the

27:53

fourth wall that's talking to me

27:53

that's inviting a dialogue. And

27:57

it's saying, I'm a performer,

27:57

because if we go back to the

28:02

Threepenny Opera, and Brett

28:02

Albrecht and pirate Jenny as

28:05

performed by Greg's wife, Laci

28:05

lainnya that I mentioned earlier

28:09

on Brechtian theater is all

28:09

based around constantly

28:14

reminding the audience that this

28:14

is a piece of entertainment, and

28:17

I am a performer here. We see it

28:17

in Shakespeare with certain

28:21

characters, not all the characters. And of course, we sit and stand up comedy all the

28:23

time, they talk directly to

28:26

audiences, and pantomine does it

28:26

loads and loads and loads and

28:30

loads and loads. So just keep an

28:30

eye out for that. And it's

28:33

happening more and more in

28:33

Hollywood movies and on TV all

28:37

the time, actually.

28:38

Wow. Good

28:38

answer. Yay. What's the most

28:42

important thing that you want to

28:42

leave people with that you want

28:46

people to know about cabaret?

28:49

I think the opportunity to meet a performer

28:52

intimately is unique to cabaret.

29:02

There aren't that many

29:02

performers who can do it really

29:05

well. I remember, a long time

29:05

ago, I met up with a mate who

29:10

we'd gone to the same drama

29:10

school he'd gone off and been

29:12

very, very successful in many,

29:12

many musicals. I'd gone off and

29:16

done cabaret almost immediately

29:16

and never come back from from

29:19

it. And I said, to call this

29:19

friend of mine as that, because

29:26

he'd come to see me in a cabaret

29:26

theatre venue I used to promote

29:29

and put on shows that and I said

29:29

to him, we you should come and

29:32

do a show with me or at least

29:32

guest and come and get up and

29:35

sing a song. This man who played

29:35

Phantom in Phantom of the Opera

29:39

in the West End, he toured around the country around the world and very famous shows

29:41

playing very, very big roles.

29:44

And he said, Tony, I could never

29:44

do what you do. Not in a million

29:48

years. I was 15 years into my

29:48

cabaret career by then, and I

29:52

had offered and work to and

29:52

given work to hundreds of people

29:57

at that point, many of whom had

29:57

come from musical theater. And

30:00

not once that I heard that reply

30:00

before. And the acknowledgement

30:04

that is a different skill, and a

30:04

scary role early exposing thing

30:11

to do as a performer was, I will

30:11

be forever grateful to Carl for,

30:16

for making that abundantly clear

30:16

to me, because the only people

30:22

that think that they can just

30:22

rock up and show off their voice

30:27

got very little to do with that.

30:27

It's sharing sharing an intimate

30:31

part of yourself. And how often

30:31

do do we get the opportunity to

30:36

me to complete stranger in 45

30:36

minutes, two hours and go home

30:41

going? Wow. It's a completely

30:41

different point of view, you

30:48

know, a view of the world didn't

30:48

agree with everything they said.

30:53

They're not the best thing I've

30:53

ever heard. Something's

30:57

downright annoying. But it made

30:57

me think, yeah, unless there's

31:03

the patent.

31:04

That's really

31:04

beautiful. Beautifully put.

31:07

Thank you.

31:11

Okay, so I do

31:11

like to give my guests if they

31:17

have a platform, but you have a

31:17

huge platform, currently

31:22

creating content, I could never

31:22

keep up with that, like doing

31:25

putting out as much content as

31:25

you have been doing, especially

31:28

since the pandemic, but what are

31:28

you doing? What are your

31:32

projects?

31:34

Too much, is kind of the

31:34

answer and has been for all of

31:39

my career. Really, I wish I

31:39

could just choose one thing, and

31:43

stick to it. Unfortunately, I'm

31:43

too much of a magpie, I get too

31:48

excited about different things.

31:48

But I'm 45 now. And I feel the

31:53

need to sort of pare things down

31:53

a bit and just focus in at least

31:58

for a little while on on one

31:58

thing, and maybe the lack of

32:03

performing opportunities that

32:03

are clearly going to be around

32:06

for a good couple of years

32:06

because of Coronavirus is a

32:09

reason to finally write that

32:09

book on how to be a cabaret

32:13

performer. Certainly for the

32:13

rest of this year, I'll be

32:17

giving my first one hour version

32:17

of my tribute show to Victoria

32:21

wood across the UK. And I think

32:21

I've got five different venues

32:26

between now and Christmas. So

32:26

I'll be I'll be very happy to

32:29

get back on stage and do that

32:29

with my pianist Michael roustan.

32:33

And then he'll go off and get

32:33

busy with the much much more

32:37

talented people that you work

32:37

with, that can guarantee, do

32:40

their show. And I'll write the

32:40

two apps version and get Jordan

32:44

Clarke to be my company has

32:44

never heard of Victoria Woods

32:48

because he's too young to be

32:48

part of the story.

32:52

And I did

32:52

want to ask you about thrift Are

32:54

you a thrifter

32:57

I, I've been working for

32:57

the last five years with a

33:01

festival called the Festival of

33:01

Thrift which is in the northeast

33:05

of the country. And this year

33:05

had to be online and I hosted

33:08

the five hour live stream of the

33:08

of the festival without a

33:14

script. And that was really

33:14

great. I learned loads and loads

33:18

of stuff are very, very steep

33:18

learning curve very fascinating.

33:21

So I have ended up because the

33:21

professor has been very aware of

33:25

you know, waste, and the

33:25

cyclical economy and recycling

33:31

or the lack thereof in this

33:31

country. And yeah, I'm really,

33:34

really into it, I'm looking over

33:34

at my dressing room table, we

33:38

have a we have this product, I'm

33:38

not going to say the name of it.

33:41

But we have this product in the

33:41

UK, I wonder if it's if you have

33:44

I'm sure you have one similar,

33:44

if not the same name for

33:49

spraying fabrics that you can't

33:49

put in the washing machine

33:52

easily. Right to like get out

33:52

upon the smell. And a lot of my

33:57

costumes are hand made, and the

33:57

one covered in badges is very,

34:01

very difficult to clean. So this

34:01

bottle, that's like I mean it's

34:05

so thin now I think you get 50

34:05

mils of it. And it's three

34:09

pounds, and as another bottle of

34:09

going into the world. And I

34:14

found out that you can make your

34:14

own from a tiny, tiny bit of

34:17

concentrated disinfectant with a

34:17

nice smell to it, and loads of

34:21

water and to save yourself seven

34:21

quid and save the planet from

34:25

another bottle. And my other

34:25

fabulous, fabulous thrifty tip.

34:29

I love this tip, because I have

34:29

spent a lot of time in hotels

34:32

and bed and breakfasts when I'm

34:32

working. And, surprisingly

34:36

enough, I don't use the shower

34:36

caps very often. But one of the

34:41

people at the festival turned me

34:41

on to the idea of taking the

34:44

shower caps home that you get in

34:44

hotel rooms and using them.

34:48

Instead of clingfilm of Saran

34:48

wrapping, you might call it just

34:51

a cover plates, and bowls of

34:51

leftovers and stuff and you can

34:55

wash it and reuse it like six,

34:55

seven times. It's really

34:59

brilliant.

35:01

festival is

35:01

not just about thrifting. Like,

35:05

for fashion, it's about

35:05

thrifting and upcycling. I guess

35:09

I didn't understand that part of it.

35:11

Yeah, it's about

35:11

sustainability. Really the right

35:14

to repair is a big conversation

35:14

that we have on on an annual

35:18

basis what throughout the year

35:18

as well, of course, and what

35:21

businesses are doing or should

35:21

be doing to to be greener

35:25

themselves. Yeah, it's, it's

35:25

award winning brilliant

35:28

festival. I'm tremendously proud

35:28

to be involved with it for the

35:32

last five years.

35:34

Thank you. I cannot thank you enough. It's been a really nice. Thank you. I

35:36

hope I get to meet you someday

35:40

in person.

35:41

Yeah. That would be

35:41

lovely, very lovely.

35:45

persevere

35:45

through the Java thing. And

35:48

they're having lemonade. Keep

35:48

making lemonade. All right. You

35:56

take her. Oh, thanks for being

35:56

here. Thank you so much.

36:00

My pleasure. Okay.

36:03

There you

36:03

have it. That was my interview

36:05

with policy, the cabaret geek.

36:05

For more information about

36:10

policy and cabaret, be sure to

36:10

check out our episode notes. And

36:15

now without further ado, I leave

36:15

you with Paulus singing tribe.

36:22

Music and Lyrics by Paul L.

36:22

Martin, and Jordan Clark. Thanks

36:27

for joining us. Have a great

36:27

week.

36:33

Where's my crew? my tribe

36:46

who are my people? Where to reside.

36:57

hopes and dreams are now tropes

36:57

and me.

37:29

Well, my T shirts or skin

37:38

stripy are spotted

37:48

I'm the leader you want to

37:48

follow me?

38:21

How can I approach risking that

38:21

show ghost even if I knew

38:50

what's my sign? What's my rising?

38:59

Is this the right key? How's my crazy?

39:08

making choices. I'm stuck

39:08

without those voices.

39:37

Still to me. You can adjust to

39:37

but what the hell

40:10

square peg. last straw, last leg

40:23

What is my What is my

40:44

where's my group? Where's my try?

40:57

How do I survive hopes and dreams