0:00

Instead of thinking will anyone buy it,

0:02

I think you have to think there

0:04

are slices of the population with

0:06

X amount of money who are looking for

0:08

X amount of things and

0:12

where do I fit in? Hi

0:20

and welcome to Art Juice. This

0:22

is honest, generous and humorous conversations

0:24

to feed your creative soul and

0:26

to get you thinking with me

0:29

Louise Fletcher and me Alice Sheridan.

0:31

And today our topic is pricing,

0:34

pricing our work but before

0:36

we get into that what have you been up

0:38

to Alice? I've

0:40

been into the studio much more regularly

0:42

this week which feels good. What do

0:45

I want to say

0:47

about that? Some days good, some days not so

0:50

much. It's about what I will

0:52

say at the moment and I'm really

0:56

on those quite extremes so

0:58

I'm starting quite a few

1:01

new pieces and

1:03

quite a lot of them are they're slightly

1:05

differing sizes from each other which is unusual

1:07

for me. Yeah I'm kind of just hurling

1:09

things at it at the moment and then

1:12

I finish one day with that lovely feeling

1:14

of I

1:16

can do this, I know how to like

1:18

pull things together and I'm you

1:20

know that lovely exciting feeling

1:23

you get and then the next day

1:25

was a what was the point

1:27

of all of that. I feel like I've dragged

1:30

myself back everything that I liked yesterday,

1:32

today I don't like. A little bit

1:34

of that. Yeah

1:37

but that is so just part of

1:39

the process isn't it? It's just it'd

1:42

be I would think I was going to say

1:44

it'd be lovely if we went in every

1:46

day and felt brilliant but it wouldn't actually

1:48

because then the good days wouldn't feel good

1:50

if it always felt good. Yeah.

1:52

So we've got to have the bad days

1:54

to offset the good, that's kind of a philosophy

1:56

of life isn't it? I'm not going to

1:58

say much about my week. because honestly,

2:01

no studio time. Little bits

2:03

of time gathered at the

2:05

kitchen table in the evening,

2:07

not much, lots of boring life stuff,

2:09

lots of boring tech stuff. Not

2:13

a good arty week, but again, you have

2:15

to have those weeks so that

2:17

when you have the good weeks, you

2:19

appreciate them, I think. Yeah, and

2:22

again, I think it's just interesting

2:24

how sometimes naturally we are at

2:27

opposite situations on

2:30

each other and things like that and how easy

2:32

it is to look at somebody

2:34

else and go, oh, you

2:37

know, when someone else is in their creative good

2:39

phase, you think, oh. Yeah, why am I not

2:41

doing that? You can judge yourself a bit for

2:43

that, yeah. Yes, that's a good point actually and

2:45

it's something I'm getting better at

2:47

not doing because I used to be, you know,

2:49

I should be doing this. Well,

2:51

practically speaking, there's times when you

2:54

can't and when even

2:56

if you could squeeze some time out, there

2:58

wouldn't be an ounce of creativity to come

3:00

out of you. So that's

3:02

just part of it. And again, if we

3:04

could just go in every day, paint masterpieces

3:06

and come out. A member says,

3:08

go do nothing, what would it be like if

3:11

you went in every day, painted a masterpiece, then

3:13

someone knocked on the door and asked to buy

3:15

it and for lots of money and then you

3:17

sold it and then you started again, would

3:20

that be rewarding? And of course for

3:22

a week, that would be brilliant. But

3:24

then after that, you'd

3:26

get a bit boring, wouldn't it? You'd have to come

3:29

up with a new challenge for yourself. Yeah,

3:31

I think there's this sense that

3:33

everything should be relentlessly consistent and

3:35

never is for me.

3:40

But also I said to you yesterday, I said it's

3:43

quite funny that I'm really concerned about this. Not

3:45

really concerned. I'm involved

3:47

and challenged with this next group of

3:49

work. Like I still have paintings that

3:51

I haven't put on my website from

3:53

now. And I

3:56

said to you yesterday, why Am

3:58

I even doing this? Why?

4:01

Why? Do we put ourselves in

4:04

this situation? But again, that's also

4:06

interesting. I'm just. Not.

4:08

In as selling mood at the moment

4:10

and. You. Know that is because

4:12

I again let you you be doing a

4:14

lot of changing your membership. I've been doing

4:16

a lawsuit, changed mine and that stuff takes

4:19

energy to say whether it's that south or

4:21

life stuff or family stuff in I think

4:23

just recognizing that it doesn't or has to

4:25

happen in this week or this month. In.

4:28

A Maybe it. Maybe.

4:30

It's meant to be this way because.

4:32

You're. Gonna have this big inspirational selling

4:34

feeling that some point and you

4:36

gonna be so much better at markets

4:39

him when you feel like that

4:41

and then now. So if he if

4:43

he pushed the south and said

4:45

well I should get these open it

4:47

wouldn't have any any to behind

4:49

it. And. That when the results

4:52

I think would reflect that whereas where if you

4:54

wait till you feel like do it and and

4:56

know this sounds very. He

4:59

know for some people they can't because

5:01

this is the sole source of income

5:04

and therefore. You might not be able to.

5:06

he might not have that luxury. So I

5:08

know we speak him from a different point

5:10

of. View. And some people, but many of

5:12

our listeners have. Also, full time jobs or

5:15

some other way of any money. And they

5:17

can also on that they're the times

5:19

when they feel like I just think

5:21

he get better results if you go

5:23

with the flow of how you feeling.

5:25

I have any. Nibbling my

5:27

way slowly towards that because I realized that

5:30

one of the things that was putting me

5:32

off with the idea of putting and ruff

5:34

banks. And just like really basic things like

5:36

I'd run out of packing tape. Or

5:39

I have ordered more packing tape. I

5:41

have found some boxes that fact the

5:43

season. mainly small sized ones or of

5:46

that stuff. Has arrived.

5:48

I found some really nice corners on.

5:51

Well then. For extra.

5:53

Protection. And posting site that will

5:55

try those. So yeah,

5:57

I'm I'm edging towards it. No,

6:00

Lee. It's all right. So

6:04

today's topic is a really good

6:06

question from Renee Wilson,

6:08

who sent in her question. Thank

6:10

you, Renee, all about pricing and we realise

6:13

we haven't done this topic before. I

6:15

can't find the email, but

6:17

Alice has the question. Well,

6:19

she was just asking, have we covered how

6:22

do you calculate a price for

6:24

original artwork? Now, she's new to

6:26

showing, doesn't really know where to

6:29

begin. There's lots of information online,

6:31

but I trust you. So

6:33

how do you do it? And

6:35

yeah, I mean, I think

6:38

we were both quite surprised that we've

6:40

not spoken about pricing before, maybe

6:43

because it is it can be

6:45

quite straightforward or it feels like

6:47

it's quite straightforward. Perhaps once

6:49

you've got a handle on it. But

6:53

when you're just beginning, how

6:55

do you determine prices when

6:57

you've never sold work

7:00

before? Can you think? I

7:03

remember that feeling for you. I remember

7:05

I posted a drawing. I did this really

7:08

quick sketch while I was out on a

7:10

walk of a cow in a field, a

7:12

cow's head on a gay post. It was

7:14

nothing. And I put it on

7:16

my personal Facebook page and some friend of

7:18

a friend message and said, how much is

7:21

that sketch? I love it. And

7:24

I was like, I have absolutely no

7:26

idea what to say now. And I'm

7:28

sure lots of people have had that

7:30

where someone comes to you. And

7:32

I ended up, I think I said, well, make

7:34

me an offer. Like just what do you think

7:37

it because I wasn't thinking of selling it. So

7:39

just let me know what you think it's worth. And

7:41

she wrote back 60 pounds. And

7:44

I was thinking that took me

7:46

five minutes standing in a field. 60

7:49

pounds. Yeah, go for it. So I said yes

7:51

and sent it off to her. And

7:54

I was very haphazard In

7:57

that early days because I think that

7:59

60 pounds set. my feeling of yeah.

8:02

I was due mainly drawings than and what they

8:04

would be worth. To be full? Yeah, But.

8:06

I was very happy with it and

8:09

what I've. Learned since

8:11

and will get back to. that is if

8:13

you feel happy with the sale price is

8:15

a good sale price I think by a

8:17

nice so happy with that but it seemed

8:19

what's. The point where I no longer felt

8:21

happy with sixty pounds for for a piece

8:24

of work. And. That's where I

8:26

had to. Think. About it. What? About

8:28

you can you member the first thing he sold.

8:31

Once I started to paint consciously again

8:33

yes, the first thing I sold was

8:35

a small still life painting of a

8:37

little kid and it was eighty five

8:39

pounds. And. He

8:41

small. Yeah. Said. It

8:43

was quite. Details. It

8:46

was rather beautiful. Yeah. That went in

8:48

an exhibition and cells. And

8:51

will you happy with the eight fight pence?

8:53

Yeah at the time? Yeah. Yeah,

8:55

and I think this idea of

8:57

that make me an offer is

8:59

quite an interesting one because. It.

9:04

Does a little bit of you abdicating

9:06

responsibility if a hat I'm not advocating

9:08

by the way this as an approach

9:10

him to say in that's what I

9:12

did in a panic as idea what

9:14

to say. But. I think

9:17

it is interesting because it comes

9:19

from our desire to want to

9:21

please somebody and also not to

9:24

feel. Uncomfortable. If we say

9:26

a price is going to be too high

9:28

for them. Yeah, and reality is that. Almost.

9:31

Whatever stage that your price your work I

9:34

is going to be suitable for some people

9:36

and perhaps out as the reach of others.

9:38

So I think what we start to think

9:40

about pricing that probably one of the first

9:43

things that we have to consider that you'll

9:45

pricing is not based on making everybody else

9:47

happy. It's

9:51

an important part to bring. Into

9:54

the situation and. That.

9:57

To me that taking ownership.

10:00

Your pricing and recognizing that it's

10:02

just where you are in the

10:04

stage that you are out. Now

10:06

with your work it is. It

10:08

is going to change. It will

10:10

change. But.

10:12

It. Does. It's not set

10:14

in stone. But. I think it

10:17

does have to feel comfortable. So way

10:19

back at the beginning What I did

10:21

for my first kind of open studio

10:23

exhibition. I just. Wrote. Numbers.

10:26

That felt right on post at night

10:28

and I had said it was artist

10:30

at home. It was all the work

10:32

in our own home. There was no

10:34

gallery commission I'm I'd spent money on

10:36

framing. And I wanted.

10:39

I wanted the place

10:41

to feel. Comfortable.

10:43

But also. To set at a certain

10:45

level that felt good on I rent prices

10:48

on posts, it goes on. I went round

10:50

the house and I set them on the

10:52

painting for underneath the paintings for about a

10:54

week beforehand and then spent a week thinking

10:56

that not enough putting the prices up that

10:59

too much, bring them back down again. And

11:01

then when I realized I was hovering around

11:03

the same level as that, right? Okay, it

11:05

really doesn't make any difference. ten pounds more

11:08

off, but that was the kind of pricing

11:10

Brusca I was thinking about. And I was

11:12

also thinking about these rules about. Should

11:14

it be just under two hundred pounds? You.

11:18

Know shall I make it to ten? Or shall I

11:20

make it one ninety? Yeah, I

11:22

can. Logically, is it easier for

11:24

people if it's one one ninety.

11:27

I. Like your way of doing

11:29

it. I initially. I'm a don't

11:31

remember. The details. but I do think

11:34

I priced too low for me to

11:36

be happy for a while and I

11:38

wasn't selling a law at that point

11:40

the odd one here in there. But

11:42

there was one particular one and it's

11:44

funny now. I remember what paint and

11:47

it was but when it when I felt.

11:49

Cheated. Know not let the

11:51

people cheated makers they paid why I asked

11:53

for it by I felt. That.

11:56

Didn't feel good that felt like have

11:58

just given that away and. When

12:00

I got more serious and learned

12:02

partly from you have to think.

12:05

About. What price should be?

12:07

And I think at one point even told

12:09

you it's sad in the group in the

12:12

connects about to scoop about. Finding.

12:14

Something that feels comfortable then open

12:16

it slightly which I really liked

12:19

the seal enough because what feels

12:21

comfortable to me are certainly then

12:23

was always. Too low because I was

12:26

doing exactly what he said. I was trying

12:28

to make people happy. And. Thinking

12:30

of. The Yorkshire folks who come

12:32

to open studios. And there's always a

12:34

few who say allah, it's not pay that

12:37

for a painting and of course those are

12:39

not the audience. So. There's no point

12:41

in trying to please those people. those simple

12:43

one one it for twenty five quid nichols

12:45

any mom that. They're. Not gonna buy it

12:47

or not at all. Yeah on that's

12:49

actually twenty five times might be too as

12:52

some other. And that's a

12:54

good point. Two is really I'm I'm not

12:56

big for us to say I'm not a

12:58

big. Fan of this

13:00

in a marketing this is Tammy

13:02

lot your ideal customer avatar. A

13:05

I had my avatar my because

13:07

of that film and I think

13:09

improve my what stats but it's

13:11

just it's feel very robotic. You.

13:14

Know who is somebody and they sitting in

13:16

a box and I don't think people fit

13:18

into boxes. However,

13:21

It is important to recognize I think why

13:23

you are in this picture. And.

13:25

Way you're buying audience ah in

13:27

this picture and what I mean

13:29

by that is the kind of

13:31

people who are fine arts and

13:33

enjoying on. What? Do

13:36

they appreciate? What? Are they

13:38

prepared to spend money on. Where.

13:41

Else in there nice to. They spend

13:43

money on things that they enjoy. Expensive

13:47

habitat, Doing

13:49

it for meals with friends,

13:51

played holidays. People spend a

13:53

lot of money on things

13:55

that are not essential. And

13:58

I think we can come in that catch

14:00

a great a little bit with Art and

14:02

Ten to under ourselves and at the end

14:04

of the day with came from my first

14:07

coach. What she said is it is not

14:09

your business however but how anybody else chooses

14:11

to spend their money. You. Want

14:13

you can't be responsible for somebody

14:15

else is buying decisions and I

14:17

think the best thing that you

14:20

can do is. Really? Find

14:22

your confidence. In.

14:25

How you display your work and

14:27

how you set your prices and

14:30

I think that then becomes. That.

14:32

Becomes your standard. Say.

14:36

The question then becomes how do you find

14:38

your confidence in it. Right,

14:40

which is a slightly different thing, Other.

14:42

Than just. Where. Do I priced

14:45

at. I think experiences give

14:47

you a book he met

14:49

in my. I don't think you

14:51

can force it. So I give you

14:53

an example where I when I got

14:55

brave enough to put my prices up

14:57

in they were nowhere near what they

14:59

are now. I had this very small

15:01

solo exhibition in a tiny little gallery

15:03

and skits and and I did a

15:06

Facebook campaign says time I've ever tried

15:08

to and I chose to advertise to

15:10

people who love are either. They've been

15:12

on of our website, they've been to

15:14

an Hour Fair website, they've done. Something

15:16

and these. This couple came in

15:18

and a had the biggest painting

15:20

which was my most expensive one.

15:22

News over a thousand pounds which.

15:24

I thought was ludicrous. And they

15:27

came because of the ad. And.

15:29

They said we live in this giant

15:32

bomb. we have tons of wall space

15:34

we go to London to the affordable

15:36

out fair and some other thing I

15:38

can remember what now every year and

15:40

we always by our and our house

15:42

is full of our and they've all

15:45

the big paint in the i thought

15:47

was too expensive and probably is they

15:49

go to those outfits it was probably

15:51

really cheap to them but the size

15:53

of a they probably. Thought this is a

15:56

bag and we should grab. This button

15:58

that gave me com. That's

16:00

because just what you said, a suburb.

16:02

the ideal buyer. Again, those were the

16:04

people who weren't looking for a bargain,

16:06

Those with the people who were looking

16:08

for art that they love and he

16:10

care about our and. That.

16:13

Gave me that really based me and

16:15

that was another customer similar. He really

16:17

loved my work and bought a few

16:20

pieces and that gave me the confidence.

16:22

To start. To just

16:25

in seats help, but also

16:27

the other thing about the

16:29

confidence peace I want to

16:31

say is you have to

16:33

understand was blocking. Any

16:36

my. For. Me: What Was.

16:38

Blocking me was listening to the

16:40

people who live around here. Am

16:43

about what's valuable and.

16:47

And trying to please them rather

16:49

than. Am. And

16:52

also my own perceptions about what I

16:55

would spend on a painting. Yes, at

16:57

the time, given my current income level,

16:59

I would save time. And Japan's is

17:01

ridiculous. I would never spend five and

17:04

depends on a painter. Okay, then I'm

17:06

not my audience. Yeah. The

17:08

I think looking at sites. understanding.

17:12

What your own attitudes about money

17:14

and doing? To what you. Are

17:17

deciding I think is t. Tuesday.

17:21

Want customers? He will. I eve. who wants

17:23

than five and depends on a painting I

17:26

don't. I. Mean I will do that

17:28

now but at the time in a I don't want

17:30

that. Him. And

17:32

that's a good point too. So where do you

17:34

spend money? How to evaluate? And

17:38

the other thing and then we're going to move

17:40

on to some practical things is in actually if

17:42

you price too low. There. Are

17:44

times where you will be pricing yourself

17:47

out of the sale? And.

17:50

Because like it or not, Money.

17:53

And the price is something a part of

17:55

how we value things. Yeah, and

17:57

actually what I want to say about that even.

18:00

order is, where we are

18:02

now, we are pricing ourselves

18:04

out of a tier of

18:06

the art market because we are

18:08

too low. And we have

18:11

put our prices up to what we

18:13

feel good about at the moment, but

18:15

still, you are, instead

18:17

of thinking, will anyone buy it, I

18:19

think you have to think there are

18:21

slices of the population with

18:23

X amount of money who are looking for X

18:26

amount of things. And

18:29

where do I fit in? I don't,

18:31

well, actually, sorry, you can con everybody.

18:33

I was going to say, I don't

18:35

think you can con everybody. I

18:38

was in New York where Mr Brainwash's

18:40

art is everywhere in every gallery

18:42

and they're selling it for £10,000

18:45

for a small

18:48

print. And I'm

18:50

sorry, but if you know

18:52

the history of Mr Brainwash, it's, he's a character

18:55

created by Banksy in the film Exit

18:57

Through the Gift Shop. Basically,

18:59

he turned his cameraman into an artist

19:01

called Mr Brainwash, setting him up in

19:03

a big warehouse in LA, gave him

19:06

a staff, and he

19:08

produces this cheesy, obvious,

19:11

just, if

19:14

Banksy had a mental breakdown, this

19:16

is what he'd come up with. It's

19:18

terrible, I'm sorry, he's not going to be listening,

19:21

so it doesn't matter. And that's, so

19:23

you can fool some people some of the time,

19:25

but you usually can't. But

19:27

for those people buying it, you see, they probably don't think

19:29

they're being, they're being

19:31

fooled. So this is the thing in terms

19:33

of trying to second guess your audience is

19:35

kind of impossible to do. Yes. So

19:38

that proves that there are, that

19:40

proves that it is possible to

19:42

position yourself up here and

19:44

go for that slice of the market. Those

19:47

people who want to spend 10,000 pounds on

19:49

a print to feel good about themselves, or

19:52

to invest, to save money, you

19:55

know, to make money in the future, don't want

19:57

to buy one of my 1500 pound paintings. And

20:00

then we get into all the other

20:02

elements of marketing of which pricing is

20:05

only one factor. So

20:08

let's leave that for another day and

20:10

let's come back to some of the

20:12

like clear strategies

20:15

about how you start

20:17

pricing. So one

20:19

thing that I've seen that basically there

20:21

are three key ways. One

20:24

is basing on a factor of your time

20:26

and the material. So

20:28

you have the materials, you have your

20:30

time, you decide on an hourly rate.

20:33

This assumes that you know how long it takes you

20:35

to make a painting and it is measurable and

20:38

you do it on a time-based

20:40

factor. And

20:42

I'm not keen on that personally

20:45

because I don't think it brings in the

20:47

value. Now I do

20:51

have a system that I use

20:53

to determine what the value of

20:55

my studio hours is, but

20:57

I kind of do that in reverse. I

20:59

don't use that to create the

21:01

cost of a painting because sometimes

21:04

there are, any when I'm in the studio,

21:07

I don't define how long one painting is

21:09

taking over another. I work on a lot

21:11

of pieces at once. It's

21:14

impossible to pinpoint down to one painting,

21:17

but I just think that that is a very,

21:19

it's a very time

21:21

for money led way

21:24

of creating your price. And

21:26

I'm not a big fan

21:28

for that. It feels much more like

21:30

a commodity and I don't think art fits

21:32

into that category. No, I would

21:34

never do it that way, but I have seen people do

21:36

it that way and it feels like you.

21:39

It's impossible for me. I have no

21:41

idea how long each painting took because they're

21:43

all going at the same time and some get

21:45

put aside for a month and then come back

21:47

and I couldn't possibly do it for

21:49

one thing. But

21:51

also, yeah, it makes me feel a bit icky

21:53

when you when we're

21:56

not accountants or,

21:58

you know, lawyers who work on it. on an hourly

22:00

basis and charge out their time, that

22:03

you could do a painting which is just

22:06

as good in 10 minutes occasionally,

22:08

or one day as one that

22:11

takes you months, and are you gonna price

22:14

them differently because, well, this one took me ages

22:16

and this one was quick, but

22:18

the quick one might be better than the one

22:20

that took you ages, so no, I would never

22:22

do that, but I've seen people do it. Okay,

22:25

so the next one then is

22:27

to base on the square inch,

22:31

and the problem with this, this seemed to

22:33

be kind of prevalent when I was looking

22:35

into how to do it, the problem with

22:38

this is that when

22:40

we tend to start making artwork,

22:43

we usually start making artwork

22:45

that's a fairly manageable size,

22:47

like either really kind of

22:49

quite small, like piece of writing

22:51

paper small, and then what we think of as

22:53

big is maybe, maybe 50,

22:56

60 centimeters is big, and

22:59

when you're pricing with that in

23:02

mind, when you use the square

23:04

inch model, so the

23:06

square inch model is basically you take,

23:08

so if it's 10 by 10 inches,

23:10

you have 100 square inches, and

23:13

then you have a multiplier, and that gives you the

23:15

cost of your painting. The

23:17

problem with a square inch model

23:19

is, as you scale up your

23:21

size, it gets exponentially a lot

23:24

larger, so the prices get higher

23:26

a lot quicker as

23:28

you start to introduce new

23:31

work at a bigger scale. So let's

23:33

do an example, because people might not

23:35

know what you mean by a multiplier, but

23:38

so the multiplier is just a number

23:41

you choose that you're gonna multiply that

23:43

square inch by to set a price,

23:45

it could be anything. Yeah,

23:47

so if you've got a 10 by

23:49

10 inch painting, that gives you 100 square

23:52

inches, so

23:55

if your multiplier was then two, 10

24:00

inch square painting is going to be 200 pounds

24:03

or dollars. And if

24:06

you look at that and feel like that's not

24:08

enough or that's too much you

24:10

alter the multiplier until you feel

24:12

comfortable. Yeah. And then

24:14

you use the same multiplier each time.

24:17

So let's say

24:20

you've decided two feels good. Yeah.

24:22

So what happens on a bigger one then if

24:24

we say two? Okay, so then you start working

24:26

larger. So say you start working then and you

24:28

get to a 36 by 36 inch

24:32

square painting. You multiply

24:34

that it's 1296 square

24:36

inches times by two your big painting then is 2592

24:38

pounds. So

24:49

you might feel like wow that's a massive

24:51

increase from where I was. For a 36

24:54

inch painting which

24:56

isn't even actually that huge.

25:00

Even if you just take it up to 40 square

25:02

inches, 40

25:05

by 40 inches it

25:07

gets to 3200 pounds. So

25:10

that's for about a meter. So

25:12

it can it jumps up really quite

25:14

quickly as soon as you start adding

25:17

anything extra to the dimensions of the

25:19

painting. Because your surface

25:21

area is so much bigger. Yeah.

25:24

And the point of the multiplier

25:26

of keeping the multiplier consistent is

25:28

that you are keeping

25:30

a consistent pricing. So you

25:33

are keeping a consistent way of approaching pricing.

25:35

You're not looking at a painting and going

25:37

well I like that one a lot so

25:39

I'm going to make that one 2000 and

25:42

I don't like that one so I'm going to make it 500. You're

25:46

doing something consistent which could

25:48

be explained to someone and does

25:50

make logical inherent sense.

25:53

Yeah. Okay. And what I

25:55

have I have a price.

26:00

calculator which is basically a spreadsheet.

26:03

I have it in Google Sheets or you

26:05

can do it in numbers or wherever and

26:08

I think it's interesting to include sizes

26:11

of work that you are not yet doing because

26:15

the chances are that you will

26:17

change over time and it does

26:19

give you a sense perhaps of where

26:21

you might be heading and you can

26:24

play around with that multiplier number and you

26:27

can play around with the sizes and see

26:30

what pricing you end up with and notice

26:32

where it starts to feel like oh

26:34

no there's a difference between

26:37

a price thinking oh oh that

26:39

feels a bit much but actually okay that's quite

26:41

exciting and oh no I just couldn't like

26:44

when you if you get to

26:46

a price that you really feel

26:48

oh no I just couldn't like

26:50

3200 for a painting that I

26:52

just couldn't it's going to

26:55

be very hard for you to confidently stand in

26:57

front of that work and

26:59

actually accept that money and somebody

27:01

for it yeah yeah so

27:04

testing where your edges are you'll say

27:07

things like I know it's very expensive

27:09

but the way my pricing works yeah

27:12

start to justify it so the

27:14

way that I prefer to do it

27:16

is still using a kind

27:19

of index number but

27:21

using linear dimensions right

27:25

so rather than doing

27:27

square inches you

27:29

take the measurement of the longest you

27:32

know the the width and the height

27:34

of the painting and then divide

27:37

that so add them together and

27:39

divided by two to get an

27:41

average if you're doing squares it doesn't

27:44

matter you just do the length

27:46

of one side but if you've got a red

27:48

triangular paintings you just want to

27:50

take an average and then you use an

27:52

index factor and it obviously

27:54

it goes up as your artwork

27:56

scales up but not by such

27:59

extreme measures Yes, so

28:01

that's also the way I do it Probably

28:04

because I got your calculator years ago and

28:06

you Joe calculated to do and I set

28:09

my own Multiplier and

28:11

and I've changed that multiplier over the years

28:13

as I feel comfortable increasing

28:15

the prices the

28:17

one thing I want to just Mention

28:20

is that there's a check on when you're

28:22

doing this for the first time and you're

28:24

working out prices as Renee

28:27

will be doing you I

28:29

think it's worth checking yourself

28:31

against Similar things not

28:33

to copy other people, but

28:36

I'll give you a couple of examples on

28:38

extremes You

28:40

could be chat you could be charging you could

28:43

be in a group exhibition But your piece could

28:45

be a hundred and fifty pounds when everything else

28:47

is 450 and that makes you look Like

28:51

you don't value your work So

28:54

I think you need to look around and just

28:56

say If I may

28:59

if I look at people of my

29:01

general ability and my general, you know

29:03

skill level in their art Am

29:06

I somewhere around then if I'm beginning

29:08

it's okay if I'm a bit lower

29:10

But am I somewhere in the ballpark

29:13

because that catches if you're a real

29:15

you have a real mental block

29:17

against accepting money You might see

29:19

I'm really charging less I mean

29:22

I've seen people in your group

29:24

charging very low prices for lovely

29:26

paintings and in

29:28

mine and the other Flip

29:31

side of that in I was once in

29:33

a life drawing group exhibition that our

29:35

teacher set up for us And she did

29:37

a beautiful job We made this lovely

29:39

exhibition in the town hall and she said

29:42

to us when you price in She

29:44

was going to choose we submitted but she said

29:47

when you're giving me a price remember you are

29:49

students and this is And

29:52

these drawings are not necessarily the best

29:54

paper and just price in mind and

29:56

look around the class and see whose

29:59

work is in my qualities. She was trying

30:01

to say be sensible about what you ask

30:03

for. There was one older

30:06

gentleman whose paintings were not

30:08

great. They weren't in proportion. They didn't

30:12

have much personality. They honestly

30:14

weren't great. And he

30:16

said, well, I'm not charging less than 300 pounds

30:19

for one of these. And they were tiny.

30:21

And she said, well, I don't think that's

30:23

going to sell. And he

30:25

was very adamant, well, I do not

30:27

devalue my work. But

30:30

he never sold any work. He

30:32

didn't sell anything at that exhibition.

30:34

He never did sell anything because

30:36

he was overvaluing what he had done

30:38

in a class

30:40

to learn something. So

30:42

I think I'm not saying you

30:44

have to take what other people

30:46

are doing. But I do think we have a

30:49

lot of blocks around money and it's worth checking

30:52

if you are being influenced.

30:54

I certainly for

30:56

me that helped me lift my

30:58

prices up. But do you disagree

31:00

because that just might be controversial?

31:03

No, I think that there are two

31:05

interesting points in that. One is

31:09

recognising what materials you are using. And

31:11

it is usually true that when you

31:13

start off, you

31:15

are usually using student

31:18

grade paint. Perhaps

31:21

the paper is different. Maybe you've bought

31:23

cheaper panels. And there

31:25

will be a point where, like,

31:30

I remember being at my framers once and he's quite funny.

31:34

He says to me, Alice, look at this. Someone's brought this

31:36

in. I don't like it. He didn't like much of the

31:38

art he framed, to be honest. I dread to think what

31:40

he said about mine. But he's

31:43

like, look at this. He's on

31:45

these really shitty stretcher bars and

31:48

it's totally wonky. And it's all warped. Now

31:50

I've got to deal with it and frame

31:52

it. And it's not even square to begin

31:54

with. And I

31:56

think there's something in that. Charge

32:00

a fair value for the

32:02

quality of what

32:05

you're working with. So there's an element

32:07

of, while I wouldn't base

32:09

on the material costs, be

32:11

honest about the stage you're at and

32:14

the quality of the materials that you're

32:16

working with. And that will

32:18

also increase. So we're going to come on

32:20

to like, when do you increase your prices?

32:22

But that will also

32:24

change over time. And it's okay

32:26

if you're working on cheaper panels

32:28

because you want to, or cheaper

32:30

canvases. But

32:32

just make sure that the quality of them

32:34

is good enough to charge the price that

32:37

you're asking for. Because the last

32:39

thing you want is for somebody to see

32:42

a painting, like it, buy it, and

32:44

then when they're holding it physically in their hands,

32:47

feel it as being a bit... Yes. I

32:50

don't know. I'm thinking like the word thin

32:52

or... Lint.

32:55

Right. Exactly. So I think you'd

32:57

be aware of that. Unsubstantial. Exactly.

32:59

And I think also in your

33:02

story, it's this question

33:04

of context. And

33:07

that's where the comparison comes in. You

33:09

know, are you showing your work? Is

33:12

it in a cafe? Is it in an art

33:14

fair where you've had to pay thousands of pounds

33:16

for the stand? You know, again,

33:18

going back to that couple buying direct

33:21

from you rather than affordable art fair.

33:24

Well, people selling at affordable art fair have spent 10,000, 12,000 pounds

33:26

on a booth. Yeah.

33:29

You know, there will be gallery commission

33:31

included in there. Yeah.

33:34

So just bringing all these factors in. And

33:36

the other thing that is important to bring

33:39

in is as well

33:41

as this index

33:43

thing to

33:46

include a cost on that for your

33:48

framing and to remember that if

33:50

you are selling through a gallery, the

33:53

gallery will take 50 percent commission. So

33:56

actually you need to double your framing

33:59

costs because otherwise, basically

34:03

you're ending up with all of the

34:05

framing costs. Yeah, yeah,

34:07

good point. So that's

34:09

the mathsy bit. So how do you

34:11

know when to increase your prices then?

34:14

I think as you've said when

34:16

you start to feel, you

34:20

just start to feel they're

34:22

a bit undervalued and your

34:25

work is selling consistently at the price that

34:27

you're asking for it. Now again a lot

34:29

comes into that. Are you marketing it? Are

34:31

you showing it? Are you?

34:34

But if you're doing all of those things

34:36

and you're establishing a demand for your work

34:38

and it's selling, it's time

34:40

to increase your prices. If you're

34:42

increasing your material, so like you

34:45

know when I went to bespoke

34:48

made paneled boards, you know they

34:50

were very, like buying 10

34:52

of those was a huge investment and

34:54

I think this is the other consideration

34:56

when we're asking somebody to buy our

34:59

work. We're asking for them to invest

35:02

in us in a way and I think

35:04

you come to a

35:06

stage where you are also investing in

35:08

yourself and your work and

35:10

it's a recognition of that. Yeah

35:15

and you know I've heard a

35:17

lot of people say that putting up

35:19

their prices, oh but I can't do

35:21

that because my buyers, my regular buyers

35:24

will be upset and

35:26

I don't have a ton of regular buyers

35:28

but I have some and

35:30

it has never been

35:32

mentioned. Never. It's

35:35

just nobody's ever said well I bought

35:37

one from you two years ago and it

35:39

was a lot cheaper than that. Yeah.

35:42

It's never even come up. They just

35:44

either buy it or don't buy it.

35:46

Perhaps some of them, perhaps at another

35:48

open studio they walk away because it looks

35:50

more expensive than last time but I

35:52

think most people actually

35:55

in art weirdly see that as a

35:57

plus. Oh yeah

35:59

it's a it's, it

36:01

emphasises that you're doing well and they

36:04

want to be buying something from someone

36:06

who is considered good. Yeah,

36:08

and people don't remember. No, that's

36:10

the other thing, they don't remember and it's probably

36:12

a different size than they bought last time so

36:14

they don't know what your multiplier is and what

36:17

it changed to. So that

36:19

leads us to another question that often

36:21

comes up is what happens if I've

36:23

increased my prices? Like, firstly, do I

36:26

announce it? Okay, now... I

36:28

never heard. There's two

36:30

totally different schools of thought

36:33

on this. So you can, again,

36:35

there's no rules, you can do what you like

36:37

to do, but you could say my

36:39

prices are going to be going up. So if

36:41

there's a painting that's currently on my website that

36:44

you've seen that you've had your eye on, now

36:46

would be a great time to buy it because in April

36:50

I'm going to be reviewing my prices

36:52

in line with

36:54

costs and recent sales. And

36:57

give people on your mailing list or wherever

37:00

else a chance to come in and get

37:02

paintings. I like that idea, yeah, I like

37:04

that idea. And

37:07

that also follows on from this other question

37:09

that people have which is, well, what about

37:11

when I raise my prices, what do I

37:13

do with all the old work? Do I

37:15

raise the prices on the old work too?

37:20

And I say yes, I

37:22

say yes on the basis that, much

37:24

as you said earlier, you don't have

37:26

one painting that you like 10% more

37:30

than another one and charge 10% more for that. Your

37:33

prices are consistent, that's the point of your

37:36

multiplier table, that your prices are

37:38

consistent. And it's

37:40

about recognising the value of you

37:43

as an artist. However,

37:45

my caveat to that is

37:47

if I have old work

37:50

that I feel does not

37:52

live up to my current

37:55

standard, would I say, I will

37:58

remove it. Yes, I do

38:00

that too. I will take it off. And

38:02

I've also done not... was it at the

38:04

end of last year? I did a studio

38:07

clear out where there

38:10

were things that I still liked but

38:14

my works moved on so they weren't going to

38:16

look right on the website anymore because they weren't

38:18

going to tie in with anything. But

38:21

I didn't want to remove them because I

38:23

still really liked them. So I

38:25

did a studio clear out and I got

38:27

rid of sketches and all sorts of things

38:29

and it was really good because

38:31

it gave a lot of people a chance

38:33

to buy something at a more affordable price.

38:35

And I know again that's very controversial because

38:38

some people don't want to

38:40

ever discount things. I

38:42

would never discount my current stuff and

38:44

say I'm having a sale or any

38:46

of that. That's just my line where

38:48

I wouldn't go but I don't mind.

38:50

I enjoyed that clear

38:53

out feeling. I enjoyed knowing the paintings

38:55

were going somewhere where somebody wanted them.

38:57

I enjoyed the push of the promotion

38:59

and I still felt good about

39:01

the price of them because I'd moved on from them.

39:04

Yeah and I've totally changed my mind about

39:06

that and

39:09

I've done it once and I agree with you.

39:11

I also really enjoyed doing it and it's great

39:13

for things like where you've got a couple of

39:15

paintings left from a series or you

39:17

know something like that. Just this

39:19

question of discounts then. Let's just touch

39:22

on that because while

39:24

I don't discount I

39:27

keep the

39:29

shipping costs separate and

39:32

I know again some people like to

39:34

include it because they don't like to get to

39:36

checkout and then there'd be an extra

39:38

shipping cost. But I feel

39:41

that so for example I recently had a

39:43

situation where somebody came back to me on

39:46

a painting that he had seen in person.

39:48

He bought another painting at the event and

39:50

then he came back and he said I'm

39:52

thinking about the other one and I gave

39:54

him a code so that the shipping cost

39:56

was free and I covered

39:58

that. paid what he would

40:00

have paid at the event price. And

40:04

I like giving myself a little bit of

40:06

leeway in my pricing for the option

40:09

to do that. Or for example, if

40:11

somebody buys more than one and

40:15

it totally depends how I'm

40:17

like, sometimes people ask and

40:20

I'll give it. Sometimes people will ask

40:22

and I won't. Sometimes

40:25

it's all about the way they ask. It

40:28

is. And sometimes I'll even offer it. Like

40:30

if I can see that somebody really loves

40:32

something and they're wavering and I just get

40:34

a sense of, is this because

40:36

of the price? You know, I might

40:38

say to them, if it

40:41

helps and just slightly round the price down a

40:43

little bit on a total of two. And

40:47

I like having that within my gift to do. Yes.

40:51

Yeah. Does it feel very personal? And,

40:54

you know, I've struggled with it. Oh, should it be consistent

40:56

and totally and is that fair to people? And I think,

40:58

well, at the end of the day, making

41:01

art and selling art and when you're doing

41:03

it in person, it's a personal relationship thing.

41:06

And what do you, what do you both want as

41:08

an outcome from it? I want them to

41:10

feel like happy,

41:12

excited, really

41:15

pleased with what they've chosen. Not

41:18

to feel like they've done business with some hard

41:20

ass who wouldn't even budge. Yes.

41:22

And it's very different if someone comes

41:24

to you and says, you know, come

41:26

on, these prices are a bit nuts. If you

41:28

cut it in half, I'll buy it. Or

41:32

someone you just decide to offer it to.

41:35

It's really different things. Yeah.

41:38

I have to say, the last thing I did at

41:40

Manchester, there was

41:42

not a breath or a

41:44

murmur or anything about prices.

41:48

Nothing. And that's making me think

41:50

I need to increase mine a bit. Yeah.

41:53

Yeah. And also cost of framing and everything has gone

41:56

up too, hasn't it? So. And

41:58

the cost of paint and the cost of panels. on

42:00

the cost of everything. It's crazy

42:02

now the cost of things. Yeah, yeah.

42:05

Probably time for a little bit of realignment which

42:09

might be why I'm putting off

42:12

selling. Oh

42:16

there we go. Yeah I mean it's a big thing

42:18

pricing isn't it? It

42:20

is and I think the one thing I would like to

42:22

end by saying is if you're

42:24

beginning to start selling

42:27

you're probably going to sell something

42:29

for less than you wanted

42:31

to or price something more than

42:34

you probably. You are going to

42:36

make mistakes when we try and

42:39

be perfect from the beginning because we

42:41

think we can't correct it if we

42:43

get it wrong. It's just not true.

42:45

Nobody's watching that much so you can

42:47

adjust and you will make mistakes here

42:49

and there and that's how

42:51

we learn and it really doesn't

42:53

matter because that painting I felt such grief

42:56

about five years ago selling for too

42:58

little money I can't even remember

43:00

what it was now. It doesn't

43:03

last. So don't make it too

43:05

precious or too important just experiment

43:07

and do your best. Yeah

43:10

and there's one other question that we've got

43:12

down here in the notes that often

43:14

comes up that we haven't touched on

43:16

which is should I charge less for work

43:18

on paper? And my answer

43:23

to that is always well sort of it it's

43:26

really annoying I know but it depends

43:28

on how it fits in with

43:31

the style of work you do, your

43:34

approach. Now there can be very simple

43:38

elegant work but is quite

43:41

restrictive in it like it doesn't take

43:43

a huge amount of actual time it's

43:46

not layers and layers of complex shading

43:48

and like but

43:50

there is something in the beauty of that refinement

43:52

that can be priced just as high so this

43:54

is where it comes down to it's not about

43:56

time but I think if your

43:58

work on paper is is very, it's

44:01

a different approach, it's different

44:03

from your painting styles, then

44:05

there is an argument for

44:07

that having a different pricing

44:09

structure. But, you know, this

44:11

is, again, we've talked about pricing based

44:13

on size. You know, I

44:16

know an artist and she does very detailed oil

44:18

miniatures of like botanical

44:22

things and had small

44:25

tiny paintings of thousands of

44:27

pounds. Her

44:30

work is very different from mine. My small

44:32

tiny paintings are not thousands of pounds, regardless

44:34

of how long I spend on them, because

44:37

they just, that just doesn't feel in context

44:39

for the rest of my work. Yeah.

44:42

So you have to look at the

44:45

scope of everything. Yeah, that paper thing

44:47

is some kind of, it's some kind

44:49

of art world thing that's gone on

44:51

forever, isn't it, that paperwork isn't as

44:53

valuable as, when I had

44:55

that studio sale, the works on paper

44:57

were sketches of studies, so they were

44:59

cheaper than I would normally sell things

45:01

for. Yeah. So that's what

45:03

I think you're saying, just the context. Like if

45:05

you spent just as much time on it as

45:08

you would on a painting on a

45:11

board, I really do not get

45:13

why a painting on paper should be

45:15

less than a painting on wood. So I've

45:17

never seen it that way, but I don't

45:19

really make that many finished paintings on paper.

45:23

No, I think it's more a question of

45:25

looking at like, what is, I think

45:28

most artists have a key approach and

45:30

a key driver to the type of

45:32

work they do. I'm

45:34

thinking of another artist I know who

45:37

does terribly detailed, like everything is tiny,

45:39

tiny, tiny little pen marks, working

45:42

on paper, but each drawing,

45:45

and it is a drawing, takes

45:49

a huge amount, but that is the

45:52

key core of his creative output. That

45:54

is his process. Yeah. It's

45:57

very different from where, I

46:00

think traditionally it comes from paintings and

46:02

paintings and sketches and sketches and that's

46:04

where the work on paper. Yeah.

46:07

Where the lower has come from.

46:09

Yeah. So, Renee,

46:11

if you're listening. We hope we helped.

46:15

Because it's not like there's a straightforward

46:17

answer, but I like your three ways

46:19

of pricing gives a

46:21

place to start and just that thing of

46:23

checking if you seem to be

46:25

somewhat aligned with people you think and be

46:27

honest about where you think you are. Yeah.

46:32

In terms of your abilities. I

46:34

mean, honesty, I think is always

46:36

important in this and just

46:38

knowing how you feel with where you

46:40

sit, you know,

46:42

not not either undervaluing it or overvaluing

46:45

it, but also knowing, as you say,

46:47

you know, where you might need to

46:49

pay attention to how else does

46:51

that operate in your life? You know,

46:54

if you're somebody who doesn't spend

46:57

a lot of money on things,

46:59

it's going to feel uncomfortable asking

47:01

for high value for your painting

47:04

until you start to do a little bit

47:06

of work on that and be aware of it. Yes.

47:10

You want to feel good about it. I mean, you want to

47:12

feel good about it. This is this is

47:14

the key thing. You want to feel good about it

47:16

before you price it and you want to feel good

47:18

about it after you've made the sale too. And

47:21

if you feel like you're someone who struggles

47:23

to charge what you're worth, Alice

47:26

did a wonderful episode

47:29

one episode one

47:31

61 of this podcast with

47:33

Michelle Walker, where you talked about money

47:35

and attitudes to money and feelings about

47:37

money. And I think that might be

47:39

a good one to go listen to

47:41

after this. If you feel like money

47:44

is an issue for you. Good

47:46

point. Good. Well, there you go.

47:49

I think we squished everything in. I think we did.

47:51

I think that was quite good. There we go. It's

47:53

a big subject, but, you know, and again,

47:55

like lots of things, it's a balance of

47:58

having a structure and. and also

48:00

being very personal and seeing where you

48:02

fit. And on that note, can I

48:05

share with you my what's inspired? Because

48:09

it's about buying a painting for

48:11

a bargain price. I

48:14

was in an antique shop yesterday

48:16

and I always look at all the

48:19

paintings and they're

48:21

always not at all my

48:23

cup of tea. They're always

48:25

beautiful little watercolours or quite

48:27

sentimental or Victorian children, those

48:29

horrible, overly sentimental Victorian children.

48:33

And in the middle of all that was this

48:35

little watercolour study. And I've got to here because

48:37

I'm going to hang it in my office. This

48:40

one. Yeah. And it

48:42

was hanging up amongst all these others and I was like, oh,

48:44

that's nice. And it's really simplistic.

48:47

I know this is a podcast so

48:49

no one can see it. So simplistic

48:51

watercolour, it was probably a sketch on

48:53

location, but it was

48:55

just, I could tell it was a good artist

48:57

and everything else in there was

48:59

to my taste wasn't. So I

49:02

grabbed it and it was 50 pounds. It's

49:04

all framed and everything. And

49:06

when I got back, I looked the artist

49:09

up and it's somebody

49:11

from Wales. His name is Nyle,

49:15

I think, N-I-E-L. My

49:17

brother's Neil and this, it's felt this way.

49:19

So I think he's either Neil or Nyle,

49:21

Bally. And he's

49:24

probably in his 70s now. And

49:26

he's a former

49:28

art teacher, art professor, exhibits

49:31

all over, you know, teachers'

49:33

workshops. So he's got some

49:35

beautiful work online and

49:37

some work that isn't to my taste, but he's

49:40

like a really good artist.

49:43

And I loved that he's

49:46

painting. He might say, oh, but it's awful

49:48

that his painting is there for 50 pounds

49:50

because one of his prints online

49:52

is 1500 pounds. So

49:55

it might seem like how awful that it's

49:57

hanging up in an antique shop, but I...

50:00

I kind of like the feeling that one

50:02

day one of my paintings might make it

50:04

through to someone in a weird

50:06

way and that they might feel like they

50:08

got a real bargain and be really happy

50:10

with it. And

50:13

I like

50:15

the idea that quality

50:17

stands out. I like the idea that if

50:19

you've worked at your craft and

50:21

you've really paid attention to learning how

50:24

to do this, even

50:26

the smallest study that you've done

50:28

can stand out in a

50:31

massive warehouse full of other stuff. So

50:33

yeah, I felt really pleased with myself

50:35

because I never find any good paintings

50:38

in those places. Yeah. And

50:40

you recognise what you like too. Yeah.

50:42

And I found him on Facebook, so

50:44

I'm going to try a message to

50:46

say that I just really

50:48

love it and it's really made me happy and I've

50:50

just discovered his work because I

50:52

think that would be nice as well. He

50:54

might be a bit missed that someone gave

50:56

his painting away, but it's the kind of

50:59

painting because it's so unstudied

51:01

and quick. I can

51:03

see that if you were clearing out someone's house

51:05

and you don't know anything about art,

51:08

you would think, oh, we don't want that. We'll just

51:10

give that away or sell that cheaply. But

51:13

it's beautiful and it doesn't deserve that

51:15

fate. So yeah, it was a good

51:17

discussion. That's fine. Lovely. Okay,

51:20

well, we'll see you next time

51:22

then. Have a happy week creating, listening,

51:25

living, doing whatever you're doing and we

51:27

will see you next time. Bye-bye. Thank

51:50

you.