0:00

But. In Eight reflected my dry spell

0:02

cause it was mostly empty with a couple

0:04

a bit stuck com there and a tea

0:06

bag that my friend penned up back in

0:08

that was a that was my inspiration, a

0:10

tea bag and to bits of all paintings.

0:17

Hi and welcome to Episode two hundred.

0:19

And thirty nine of I choose this

0:21

is on his generous and humorous conversations

0:24

to feed your creative so and get

0:26

you thinking with me Louise Fletcher A

0:28

Me Alice Sheridan. Our. Topic

0:30

this week is something I've brought

0:32

to the table which is nurturing

0:35

ideas when they first arrived. But

0:37

before we get into that's Am

0:39

Alice you were. You've just been

0:42

checking our reviews and he found

0:44

some nice ones. Do you wanna

0:46

share about that? Yeah,

0:48

well I was just we were just saying that

0:50

we have got to. Four.

0:53

Million downloads of the podcast which

0:55

is amazing and I think it's

0:57

really it's really funny when we

0:59

look back to remember that first

1:01

Within about six weeks when we

1:03

first started the podcast, we had

1:05

about four hundred listens a week.

1:07

That and way ah and then

1:09

one week. all of a sudden

1:11

we had a massive spike in

1:13

a short while. But we thought.

1:16

What's. Happened. There's suddenly.

1:18

We've got money or less than

1:20

as and we message anchoring they

1:23

went oh no it's a mistake

1:25

and of because at the time

1:27

we were tracking it we right

1:29

but it's gonna skew are percentages

1:31

of my kids sculler really upset

1:33

are are averaging are tracking and

1:35

will never get to that account

1:37

Anyway over time things have grown

1:39

gradually. We've never done a hockey

1:41

stick kind of massive sweet pop.

1:44

Bots. Thing stack up over time

1:46

and I know because I get messages from

1:48

people who just discover us and listen all

1:50

the way back. Am I supposed as a

1:53

message? couple of messages in this. The first

1:55

thing is we never set out to do

1:57

a podcast that had four million to l.

2:00

The of it we didn't even know like what

2:02

would we rank it again? Site: What is a

2:04

good podcast? To be honest, I still don't know

2:06

that Four million feels pretty good to me. And

2:10

it's also interesting that when we're not

2:12

sources pay attention to it. it still

2:14

cooking cooking up in the background. So

2:17

it's I just wanted to and I'm

2:19

sure we both stay. just site everybody

2:21

who continues to listen and to share

2:24

for others and as the thing that

2:26

I love about it the thing I

2:28

don't like about podcast is well as

2:31

a kind of released from isn't that

2:33

a fact that it's just going out.

2:36

When I think about the idea

2:39

of broadcasting something makes me feel

2:41

quite nervous. But. I did. Somehow

2:43

I don't think that this because

2:45

it started so small and I have

2:47

something in there for us to learn

2:50

as artists as well About. Not.

2:53

Necessary. focusing too much on an end goal

2:55

and just. Just going.

2:57

With the journey. Anyway, I just

2:59

wanted to read this one which came in

3:01

from Joe. And she said,

3:03

absolutely wonderful. And I'm not an artist.

3:05

I'm not even sure how I came

3:08

to find this podcast because I'm psychotherapist,

3:10

not an artist Unless we're talking about

3:12

the are to therapy That, however, it

3:15

came into my life. I'm so utterly

3:17

grateful. I feel inspired, uplifted, understood, connected,

3:19

and entertained every time I listen. I

3:21

miss you boatloads over the festive, bright

3:24

Alison. Back to some old episodes to

3:26

bridge the gap. A When I saw

3:28

the latest podcast available, I did a

3:31

little squeak of delight. I. Felt like

3:33

a real imposter. First that the long

3:35

I've listened more come to realize that

3:37

conversations about creativity and inspiration er probably

3:39

relevant to just about anyone. You weave

3:42

in so many different ideas a lot

3:44

of them relate to psychology and I

3:46

recommended this podcast to clients and friends

3:48

alike. Thank you! Pay for putting into

3:50

this world. I feel a lot richer

3:53

for having discovered it. So.

3:56

Think you. Makes. My heart

3:58

same tude little sweeter. like, yeah,

4:01

I sometimes get that with just certain

4:03

podcasts where I go, oh, there's a

4:05

new one when I open my phone.

4:08

So I know that feeling and it's,

4:10

yeah, I never imagined we would be

4:12

that feeling for someone, but that is

4:16

wonderful. Yeah. I still feel

4:18

like we're just chatting to each other and

4:21

that's the beauty of doing podcasting. I

4:23

think that's why you get

4:25

so many honest podcasts, not just

4:27

from us, but from lots of people, because it's

4:30

just a chat or, you know,

4:32

maybe it's an interview, but it just feels like

4:34

it's between two people or if you're on your

4:36

own doing a podcast, you're just talking into a

4:38

microphone by yourself. And the

4:41

idea, yeah, that someone else is listening to

4:43

it is something you don't

4:45

think about while you're talking, obviously,

4:47

as evidenced by the amount of stupid

4:49

things we've said over the four years.

4:53

But that's the thing, that was one rule

4:55

that we had at the beginning was that

4:57

we wouldn't, we couldn't edit ourselves. I mean,

4:59

we do edit it because sometimes like, you

5:01

know, we cough and the doorbell

5:03

goes and all of that sort of stuff.

5:05

But I just mean we've, we had

5:08

to just show up and talk about what

5:10

was really relevant for us without

5:12

thinking about who was going to be listening

5:14

or what it was for sometimes. And occasionally

5:16

we have some that are more direct here.

5:18

Anyway, just wanted to start with that.

5:21

And sometimes we get messages that say, I

5:24

am so disappointed in you

5:26

that you said X, Y or Z.

5:30

And it's like you get a little moment

5:32

of thinking, Oh God, I'm sorry. I've disappointed

5:34

someone. But then you think, Oh, sorry, but

5:36

that is what I think. And, you

5:39

know, sorry, that sorry, that's not what you

5:41

think, but it is what I think. So. Interesting.

5:44

Yeah. I haven't had those. Don't send me a

5:46

message like that. That's

5:48

because you never read your emails. I

5:52

read some occasionally. So

5:54

what have you been up to this week? Well,

5:57

it's been a while. I

6:00

don't think two weeks. It

6:02

has been a while. So we

6:05

were just talking before we started about not paying

6:07

attention to things and you said not paying attention

6:09

to your house and maybe

6:11

sort of prompted a little bit

6:13

by my mum's house but

6:15

not really prompted by a very good Sunday

6:17

lunch. Last week I decided that I would

6:20

do a fast and see how long that

6:22

went. So my mum has diabetes which has

6:24

just got to insulin stage and she's not

6:27

been great at looking after it, it has

6:29

to be said. Anyway, so when I do

6:31

the diabetes risk checker,

6:33

the only risk is

6:35

the fact that she has it. I'm feeling

6:37

like I've got to balance up the scales

6:39

on the other side. So an occasional

6:42

long fast can do that. So I did it

6:44

but without really setting out to. So

6:47

I did a 45 hour fast

6:49

which felt great, the Reese's

6:51

Whits thing. Yeah. I

6:55

was surprised. I just had a really good

6:57

lunch on Sunday and then Amy

6:59

said what's the supper and I was like

7:01

supper? I don't want to eat. You

7:04

know, we've already what? No, I've had

7:06

enough. And I thought

7:08

oh okay, well that's quite good. Maybe I'll just do

7:10

tonight and see how far I get into tomorrow. And

7:13

then I thought well if I get to tomorrow and

7:15

if I do tomorrow night too that will be 40

7:17

hours and that is supposed to be a real

7:20

kind of gut reset. So

7:22

I thought well I'll just see how I go and if

7:24

I get starving hangry I

7:27

will eat. No biggie. Anyway,

7:30

I got through the day quite happily. Really

7:32

quite, I had quite a busy day but

7:35

it was a computer based day. I wouldn't do

7:37

it when I was doing a lot of physical

7:39

stuff. I probably wouldn't do it when I was

7:41

having a studio

7:44

physical moving around day. But

7:47

yeah, it was good and I only stopped because it

7:49

was our wedding anniversary so we were going out for

7:51

dinner and I thought that's probably not the best meal

7:53

to break along fast with. I better stop earlier in

7:55

the day. So I would definitely do

7:58

it again on an irregular

8:00

basis. That length of

8:03

time probably only once every

8:05

six months. And

8:07

then this one's going to really scare you. I joined

8:11

the gym. Oh, I did that once. Sorry,

8:16

God. I joined the

8:18

gym while I was in my feeling

8:21

fabulous, fast day.

8:23

I made, well, what I did was I did

8:25

a series of commitments. So I made an appointment

8:28

to go and look at the gym. So I

8:30

knew I'd have to turn up because I'd made

8:32

an appointment. And when I

8:34

was there, I thought, well, you're

8:36

either going to do this or you're not. So I

8:38

signed up for a year, which got the thumbs up

8:40

from the trainer because they're just thinking,

8:43

great, there's some sucker who signed up for a year

8:45

and is not going to use it. Then

8:47

I went for my induction session and

8:49

didn't listen to my own body, listened

8:51

to him and overdid it

8:53

on the calves exercises.

8:57

Next day was a bit achy.

8:59

Day after that, hobbling around my

9:01

house, couldn't walk, never

9:04

felt anything like it. Honestly, it

9:06

was so bad. Two days

9:09

later, I'm back at the gym again. So

9:11

I'm going and I went yesterday, even though

9:13

it was dark, it was the end of

9:15

a very busy day. And

9:18

I thought I've put it in the diary. I promised

9:21

myself to go, even if I just go for 20

9:23

minutes and put good music

9:25

in and just walk on the

9:27

treadmill, that will be good. And

9:30

once I was there, I was quite happy

9:32

and I did more and I came back. And

9:34

today I feel very gently,

9:37

very gently pushed, which

9:40

is good. Yeah, that's good

9:42

though. Yeah. Yeah. I think that

9:44

put me off the gym. I wasn't losing this

9:46

actually. I was going regularly, but it is where

9:48

I live. You know where I live. So it

9:51

was 40 minutes there. Yeah, that's

9:53

a lot. But then in traffic, it

9:55

was, it ended up being 30 minutes

9:57

there. Yeah. In traffic to call. or

10:00

I could have done Skipton but either way

10:02

it's by the time you've

10:04

parked and got in there and then you

10:06

get back out so it was taking up

10:08

two hours out of every day yeah that's

10:10

too long couldn't do it whereas if I

10:12

was in a town and it was right

10:15

there it's not so bad and that's my

10:17

excuse anyway so you've got you I tell

10:19

you what you've got you've got the space

10:21

you could have a bike

10:25

or a running machine and I've got

10:27

a running machine over the garage I've

10:29

just got it set up a few

10:31

weeks ago and started

10:33

doing quick bursts on it and I put

10:35

it on the incline and I put it

10:37

too much of an incline I think and

10:40

on day two I knackered my knee so

10:44

I'm just recovering from that it's just

10:46

stopped clicking and hurting oh so I

10:48

shall put the incline down but I have got a

10:50

treadmill anyway this is all very

10:53

exciting for everybody what I did

10:55

do for my own mental health is

10:57

I cleared out my studio and I

10:59

mean properly cleared out I got

11:01

some friends to help me because I

11:03

am not a very good at clearing

11:05

out I tend to like look at

11:07

and rearrange it a bit and think

11:09

yeah okay that's so

11:11

I got people to help me who

11:14

insisted on holding up every pencil and

11:16

saying where does this go and and

11:18

so that everything has its place now

11:20

it took all day on Sunday and

11:24

it'll get messed up again but I

11:26

felt the need to like really clear

11:28

out everything from the past and start

11:30

again so over the

11:33

garage where the running machine is

11:35

is increasingly filled with half finished

11:38

and frames and whatever didn't

11:41

so yeah I'm now building

11:43

up this I've got this

11:45

amazing storage room with beautiful

11:47

wood floorboards and lovely decoration

11:49

and it used to be the guest

11:51

room and now it's just full of rubbish

11:53

from my studio but at least at least

11:56

it's somewhere else this is out of the studio

11:58

yeah what prompted that so was that a

12:00

kind of, yeah, something new and that's actually

12:03

just perfectly into what I wanted

12:06

to talk about today. I

12:11

have been having after

12:14

a long dry spell quite

12:16

a few ideas coming in which

12:18

actually when I look back on

12:20

it are ideas I've been percolating

12:22

for a few years but in

12:24

sketchbooks or scraps of paper

12:26

and then I've left them and then I've come back

12:28

to them but it felt like

12:31

time to really hatch something but

12:34

things were around that were from

12:37

pastings, things were stuck on the

12:39

walls and paintings were half finished that I

12:41

never got anywhere with and it

12:44

felt like, we've talked about clearing your house

12:46

before where it feels good to get the

12:48

junk out and have a clean cupboard, well

12:51

it felt like I needed a clean slate

12:53

to start again and

12:57

be really free to let

13:00

these ideas develop so

13:02

that was what prompted the clear out

13:05

and so then I have an ideas

13:07

board, I think you do a mood

13:09

board and it's a similar

13:11

idea, I think I got a combination of

13:13

your mood board and Nick

13:15

Wilton's inspiration board and I've always

13:18

kept it up ever since, it's just somewhere

13:20

where I stick things basically that I like

13:23

but it reflected my dry spell because it

13:25

was mostly empty with a couple of bits

13:27

stuck on there and a tea bag that

13:30

my friend pinned up there because he found

13:32

it on the floor and that was it,

13:34

that was my inspiration, a tea bag and

13:36

two bits of old paintings and a picture

13:39

of Riley so now it

13:41

is filled with all

13:43

the things I've been percolating and

13:47

that's the only thing in my studio that's

13:49

full, the rest of it is waiting

13:51

there for, I've made

13:53

some first steps and I've done some

13:55

experiments but I wanted

13:58

to talk about this because I

14:00

have a tendency to do

14:02

what somebody message me on

14:04

instagram Joe last message me and

14:07

she had this phrase am

14:09

selling at the lead and

14:11

which is. When you

14:13

are trying to go right? Okay, have had

14:15

an idea. Let's get on with it. Let's

14:18

have a series of paintings by the end

14:20

of a month. Let's let's do they six.

14:22

It's really exciting. And.

14:25

I think that's not the way to

14:27

approach it and will often happens with

14:30

me is that I exhaust ideas like

14:32

that. By. Racing. Am

14:35

so I saw. It's something we could

14:37

talk about in terms of. When

14:40

and how do we nurture our

14:42

ideas and. And when

14:44

have we been successful I say and

14:47

what does that look like And when

14:49

can we go too far in the

14:51

nurturing? This is the doing. And but

14:53

when can we go too fast and

14:55

don't know what the answer is? So

14:57

I was really hoping a turn up

14:59

and you would give us like a

15:01

five point solicit. I

15:04

do not have a five point sully since

15:06

I'm. A. I'm

15:09

interested to the he say that they because

15:11

when you first talking about the pulling into

15:13

lead thing i have written down like that's

15:15

not how i experience it usually. So.

15:18

How do you experience linear?

15:20

Has. A ninety is wow. This.

15:24

Way I have been

15:26

quite consciously. Trying

15:28

not to fall back into the

15:30

habit of what I usually day

15:33

when I'm starting paintings. So I

15:35

have always been doing the opposite.

15:37

a feeling pulled on a lead

15:39

of like almost not not taking

15:41

my heels and isn't right but

15:43

putting the brakes on and just

15:45

kind of. I just just check

15:47

the mat. And

15:50

sometimes. I. Think

15:52

it's great to just go a day

15:54

I feel a thing I'm gonna do

15:57

it. I wanna try this. And I've

15:59

had for exams. Oh I've had times

16:01

in the past where I've. Really

16:04

wanted to try something different, like. I'm

16:07

I did one go for work. Why?

16:09

I really want to supreme it. So

16:11

my colors beforehand said I wasn't slow

16:13

down in the process of painting by

16:15

mixing colors. And I was. Deliberately.

16:18

Choosing colors they were a bit brighter

16:20

than I would then I know actually

16:22

makes on I mix them. And.

16:26

That was. Really? Interesting from

16:28

a practical point of view

16:30

of feeling like ice. You.

16:33

Know that ceiling How easy it is

16:35

to open a passive. Hostels:

16:37

Or ten of pencils and just.

16:40

Just you can just says

16:42

very short time delay between

16:44

that holds her instinctively choose

16:46

the color. And

16:48

to put it on whatever you're working on

16:51

that is one of the biggest problem is

16:53

I find with painting and they get we

16:55

were. I enjoy color mixing but sometimes the

16:57

speed of it really. Of noise Me: Back.

17:00

If. You've got paid and you haven't got enough

17:03

of it. And then each you want more

17:05

than you could never get quite that. and

17:07

and again those you want more but you

17:09

could never get exactly the same seats. Sometimes

17:11

it's a great intellectual to to to and

17:13

mix exactly the same thing again. And.

17:17

Also, I love those little variations that com

17:19

when you don't get it exactly the same

17:21

again. And. Also, sometimes I'm

17:23

just annoyed the i like my

17:26

my paint brush isn't. An. Endlessly

17:28

refillable. you can kind of evil and the

17:30

end of A and the and and the

17:32

color but you're imagining in your head up

17:34

thought the bus you've actually got to make

17:36

that. And stuff say. In

17:39

that situation having a deliberate oh idea

17:41

i'm gonna try and see this was

17:43

felt like of pulling at the lead

17:46

idea and it did allow me to

17:48

work a lot quicker. But

17:52

now I'm feeling like my

17:54

ideas need. To. Be

17:57

slow us. Or

17:59

I need. Be slower because the ideas

18:01

I feel like is going to be

18:04

different or the things that I'd there's

18:06

not even this. Is it that not

18:08

even an idea. There

18:10

is some saying that wants to come

18:13

through in this next loss of work

18:15

and I have to be careful not

18:17

to make it so noisy bad just

18:19

doing what I normally do. I feel

18:22

like I've got to be. Slow.

18:25

Enough in starting high enough

18:27

and starting so that the

18:29

little whisper of what's new

18:31

which is. Why? At.

18:34

At the beginning. Food: No, it's

18:36

not a well established. Pray is

18:38

not that kind of rough and

18:40

we'll okay. This is what we

18:42

do. Gray will just get going.

18:45

That that bit when you're feeling

18:47

like okay, I want something different.

18:49

Sometimes it comes at you with

18:51

our oh that's different I like

18:54

that feel but at the moment

18:56

I feel like it's it's quieter,

18:58

it slower. And

19:00

not so I've got to listen to set.

19:03

The these new ideas, The country. That's how

19:05

I'm feeling at the moment. It's like a

19:07

say is not a this is what you

19:10

should do. But it

19:12

feels different. It's interesting. Yeah.

19:16

And. That's what I'm trying to do

19:18

is is kind of a making

19:20

space because yeah. What inspired

19:22

the such for me was I was

19:25

busy li working away in a sketch,

19:27

but we're doing a project on something

19:29

that's always interested me that I always

19:31

loved. and then. Our friend

19:34

of the podcasts Rachel Davis am

19:36

he's been on here before posted

19:38

something on Instagram. where

19:40

she does several different types of out

19:43

work and to someone had said to

19:45

her. Why? Not just put

19:47

everything he liked together. In and Do it

19:49

all in New paintings. And said you

19:51

don't separate things and she said. Like.

19:53

You know, head exploded like wow.

19:56

What could that look like? And.

20:00

At the same time my head exploded because

20:02

I was like, oh yeah, I keep this

20:04

stuff for sketchbooks Hmm.

20:07

What do I do? When

20:09

I have a chance to

20:11

spend some time on my own and go off

20:13

and do something I go to In

20:16

my case I go to vintage stores and

20:19

I go through vintage papers and and what

20:21

do I do in my sketchbooks? I work

20:23

with vintage things And

20:25

what do I do in my paintings nothing

20:27

to do with that and you have worked

20:30

with papers in your paintings I used I've

20:32

used papers as like the base. Yes, I

20:34

have as the basis for landscape paintings and

20:38

sometimes bits of them peek through

20:40

and I did one small series

20:42

where I really combined abstract landscape

20:44

and collage and vintage

20:46

papers, but then I went back

20:49

again and it's not so

20:51

much just using It's

20:54

not so much just using vintage papers like you

20:56

said I could do that again, you know that

20:58

that I know how to do that but

21:01

it's more when

21:03

I work in my sketchbooks with vintage

21:05

papers, I bring them to the forefront

21:07

and vintage photographs

21:10

and pictures

21:12

antiques and all

21:14

of the things that really get me excited

21:16

are at the forefront in sketchbooks and then

21:19

just get used as background in paintings

21:21

and and Then

21:24

there's this I then I've got all

21:27

sorts of ideas that I absolutely love

21:29

like I find old photographs

21:32

So poignant particularly photographs

21:35

of children Victorian Edwardian

21:37

children So someone whose life

21:39

has been and gone and you're seeing them

21:41

as a child full of all the hope

21:44

and possibility and then It's

21:46

a bit gloomy actually I don't

21:48

think there's Victorian pictures of children that they're

21:50

full of No, I don't

21:52

mean the street children. I mean the

21:55

very beautifully posed, you know Rich

21:57

kids that have their pictures done in shoot

22:00

that's the ones that really get to me.

22:02

It's like they've

22:04

got the perfect dress and the hair all

22:07

done and they're maybe five years old

22:09

and what happened to them and what

22:11

tragedies did they experience? And so

22:14

it's this feeling of,

22:16

I get this feeling, I

22:19

have like, right, I want to somehow bring

22:21

all these things together and I

22:23

want to, and so

22:25

I start experimenting and

22:28

I've had a couple of really happy

22:30

days just experimenting, going from one thing

22:32

to another, but

22:35

there is this constant

22:38

thing in my head that I have

22:40

to battle with, which is what

22:43

the finished thing might look like. So

22:46

I see how this might look, might be, you

22:48

know, and that

22:50

I think is the death knell because

22:53

that is the opposite of what you just

22:56

described, creating space for

22:58

the whispers to come through. And

23:01

there's a tendency often for me to

23:04

rush past that phase to start making. And

23:08

then either I finish some things,

23:11

like I'm put them up for sale, move on, or

23:14

more likely the idea peters out because

23:18

I didn't give it enough breathing space. So

23:24

what I'm really trying to do is more now, of

23:27

what you're describing, to

23:29

not let this be something I try

23:32

and resolve this month, but to

23:34

just let it be something that I have

23:36

fun and experiment with for

23:38

a while and see what happens. Yeah,

23:41

I think it's like most

23:43

things that we do that involve some

23:45

kind of change because that

23:47

is art, right? We're

23:50

never just repeating ourselves.

23:54

That for me is the difference between art and craft,

23:56

in a way, craft

23:59

you're repeating. something. And

24:02

art is always the kind of search for

24:04

something new and different. But I think with

24:07

anything that involves change then, I think

24:10

there's the carrot and the stick, isn't

24:12

there? And in art terms, it's what

24:15

you're looking for, what you want, whether that

24:17

is a feeling or an

24:19

end result or something

24:21

you feel wants to be

24:24

different in the finished visual

24:27

result of your painting. I want them

24:29

to be even quieter,

24:32

even calmer. And

24:34

I want to still keep multiple

24:39

subtle differences between colour, but perhaps do that

24:41

in a different way. So that's on the

24:43

pull side. And then I

24:45

also think then you have the what I

24:47

want to stay away from, what you don't

24:50

want. And I think

24:52

it's just being aware of where

24:54

those come up automatically, because there's

24:56

a reason why you're doing things the

24:58

way you do them in this moment

25:01

in time, because that's all your experience

25:03

is of so far. And you

25:06

use that, we're using that. And

25:08

that's what your sketchbooks are for. And

25:11

there's also a difference between what

25:14

happens in your sketchbooks and

25:16

what happens in that. I mean, when

25:18

you're talking about things like papers, there's

25:20

a literal physical, there's a problem in

25:23

the scale. It's just

25:25

different. Oh, yeah, yeah. Which is

25:27

a big problem with using any of

25:29

that kind of found stuff. So

25:31

then it's yeah.

25:34

So what element is it of that that

25:36

you want to? Is

25:38

it the actual images themselves? Or is it just

25:41

the idea? I think

25:44

it's the idea.

25:47

No, you're asking me. I'm thinking what is it?

25:50

What it is for me when I go in

25:52

a vintage shop and I look at vintage bits

25:54

of paper, which is like one of my favorite

25:56

things to do is it's

25:58

the sense of the life

26:01

and the potential

26:04

and the problems and

26:07

the complications and the tragedies and the

26:09

unknown. What can never

26:11

be known about that person who wrote

26:14

that letter or posed

26:16

for that photograph, it's

26:18

the poignancy of that and

26:22

it speaks to like a

26:24

concern or a constant issue

26:26

that I've had throughout my

26:28

life of terror

26:30

of death, like just

26:32

an absolute existential terror of

26:34

death. Well, it is death

26:36

is existential, so there you go. But that

26:39

sense of like always

26:41

that's been on my mind from being a kid. I

26:44

used to just think I was dying all

26:46

the time of something like I had leukemia

26:48

or I had some, you know, rare disease

26:50

and my mum would have to reassure me

26:52

that I wasn't going to die. So

26:55

is this something about it's something

26:58

that's what I mean. I don't know

27:00

yet. And if I just make it

27:02

be about all this picture

27:05

looks cool set against this vintage paper,

27:07

and I make a

27:09

nice painting, I won't get to all

27:12

the possibilities of what that thing is that's

27:14

pulling at me. But

27:16

all I know is, any time

27:18

I get a chance to go and spend

27:20

a day, it will

27:23

be going to a junk

27:25

shop and poking around in

27:27

old things and people's

27:29

old lives. And they go

27:31

on eBay and I buy old photographs

27:33

for no reason other than I want

27:35

to look at, you know, unknown people

27:38

and imagine their lives. And

27:41

this though, somehow

27:44

also combines with the

27:46

love of my landscape at home. It

27:50

somehow combines with home. It

27:52

somehow it all combines. But

27:55

then you see my brain will go,

27:58

so you could put some trees. and you could

28:00

put some help and a photograph and you could,

28:03

you know, it's not a- It's a literal,

28:05

isn't it? Yeah, it starts arranging the

28:08

pieces instead of, which

28:11

I could do very nicely and that would look great,

28:14

or I could let this all

28:16

evolve into whatever it wants to

28:18

evolve into. But I think at the

28:20

basis of it, it's

28:24

about honoring humanity of, it's

28:27

about honoring the past or a

28:29

person's life, which we may only

28:31

have a tiny fragment left of.

28:34

I think that's what's at

28:36

the core of it. And

28:40

giving that thing the importance it

28:42

deserves, it's just shoved in a

28:44

box in an antique shop underneath

28:47

a bunch of other things. But

28:49

actually it was someone's whole life. It

28:51

was someone's, at the moment that

28:53

they wrote that letter or had that picture

28:56

taken or got married. It was

28:58

their entire world. And now it's just

29:00

nothing to everybody. So

29:04

that's not very clear, but what

29:07

I feel like is there's a way to bring

29:09

in my love of drawing and

29:12

my love of, you know,

29:14

a lot in my own work, a lot for

29:16

myself, I draw and do figurative work,

29:18

but that's just for me. Done a lot

29:20

of self-portraits. I've done a lot of work

29:23

in sketchbooks on my own family

29:27

history, myself and my brother as children

29:29

and a lot of that stuff. And

29:32

I don't think it can

29:35

all be done in one painting. That's

29:37

another problem. So you've got

29:39

to try and, I

29:42

think I've just got to let each of the

29:44

seeds be whatever it's gonna be and not judge.

29:48

So for example, if I want

29:50

to, now I'm

29:52

thinking a lot, but if I want to make

29:54

that picture with the tree in the face and

29:56

the, maybe I just do that. And also over

29:59

here, I do this. and also over here

30:01

I do this. I

30:03

think I'm pre-judging and

30:06

stopping by pre-judging I'm stopping a lot

30:08

of the possibilities. That's often what I

30:10

do it's a very production

30:14

oriented mindset that I'm constantly battling

30:16

and I think a lot of

30:19

people constantly battle that when we

30:21

especially for people who live

30:23

on the sales of their paintings that can be

30:25

really difficult because you

30:28

want to nurture this idea over here but

30:30

you've got three shows coming up in a

30:32

gallery asking for work and customers waiting

30:34

for commissions and how do you do that

30:36

we're in a bit more of a luxury

30:38

position at the moment where

30:40

we're able to although you do

30:43

have some shows lined up don't you know I was gonna

30:45

say we're having a time I don't

30:49

have anything on purpose I was

30:51

after my last show I

30:54

was approached by a really lovely little gallery

30:56

in a market town in the dales to

30:59

do a landscape exhibition

31:01

with them and that

31:03

was last year and I thought there's just no

31:05

way I know if I'm gonna want to paint

31:07

landscapes next year so I can't commit to something

31:09

I can't do it I know people do that all the

31:12

time but just feel like a

31:14

a straitjacket and

31:16

I'm glad now that I didn't do that

31:18

so I have all this open space so

31:20

it's just I think it comes down to

31:22

not judging right or wrong yeah

31:26

and I wonder if this is where

31:28

if you like some of my design

31:30

background because I've spoken about where ideas

31:32

come from and unusual combinations and I

31:34

think when we're looking

31:36

at it through the lens of what we

31:38

can create that tends to be the stuff

31:40

that comes with us when we're looking at

31:42

an idea whereas when you can take some

31:44

of those ideas that you've just spoken about

31:47

about fragments or

31:51

life being delicate or whatever it is and

31:53

isolate that a little bit away

31:56

from the way that you've habitually

31:58

made art until now You.

32:01

Look at that as a new

32:03

starting point. What? Does

32:06

that? Give.

32:08

New sheets to me. And

32:11

I think when you approach them with those kind

32:13

of. Approach it that

32:15

way with a little bit of separation from

32:17

it, Then you'll

32:19

start to explore in different areas and then

32:21

they will be the threads that go back

32:23

to what that with the way that you

32:25

normally make but I think you probably have

32:27

to have that isolation. Well.

32:30

I do anyway have some of that part where

32:32

you i say what is it I really want

32:34

to do and okay if if I was just

32:36

to explore that idea. What?

32:38

Would that look like And sometimes sometimes

32:40

we have to do that physically and

32:42

I do think sometimes we can do

32:45

it mentally as well. I'm either you

32:47

don't get the discovery and the unexpected

32:49

and quite that way. but I think

32:51

I think you could know. I

32:54

mean eat The. We should use our imagination

32:56

to help us out here. By.

33:00

Either you could say what they could be.

33:03

I could take those fragments or I could

33:05

recreate something very small. All I could do

33:07

drawings and the style phone present them in

33:10

a perfect box as you know that ideally

33:12

be completely code your as you have to

33:14

do it know what is and isn't for

33:16

you. But I think

33:19

by going through that process of all right

33:21

we'll what if, what if, what, and how

33:23

about and then suddenly they'll be something which

33:25

he thinks okay, we'll is about. Is.

33:28

It about the way things

33:30

degrade. Do I really do

33:32

something that really experiments? And

33:34

how. You. Know paper degrades over

33:36

time and what about that? I am

33:39

asking what was it like if I

33:41

gavin pinochet to paper to my washing

33:43

line or stake it down in the

33:45

garden? Or leave it for three weeks

33:47

and months at at at Know. But.

33:51

i think i totally get what you're

33:53

saying and that is the problem at

33:56

the beginning sometimes i think for me

33:58

anyway it's a savvy nefarious So even

34:00

when I was trying to explain it to you, I'm

34:02

like, I can't find the words

34:04

for it. And maybe

34:06

that's where maybe that's

34:08

where just doing lots of things like I've

34:11

been doing the last few days. At one

34:13

point, I got really judgy on myself like,

34:15

you just move in between things,

34:17

you know, focus, but no, actually,

34:20

moving between things is probably good.

34:23

It's probably good because in that

34:25

somewhere will be the next thing.

34:28

I think you'll find the thing you want to go deep

34:30

on. Yeah, exactly. By

34:32

just doing lots. And

34:35

I can see that too. One of the things I

34:37

find helpful, I actually spent

34:40

about two hours going back to all

34:42

my old sketchbooks and I'm not someone

34:44

with hundreds because I didn't keep them

34:46

until, you know, 2018

34:49

or something. So it's doable for me to

34:51

look at everything I've got. And

34:53

I took photos of certain pages, even if they

34:56

weren't related to what I'm doing now, but ones

34:58

that I really liked and

35:00

could start from that to see threads

35:02

as well. And there were a couple

35:04

of spreads in the

35:06

book I'm working on at the moment where

35:09

I could just see, yes, that's

35:12

it. I don't know what it is,

35:14

but whatever it is, that's it. The

35:16

problem is, I don't know

35:18

what it is. So I don't know how to

35:21

capture that again, but that is it. That

35:24

for me did

35:26

everything I wanted. And I think

35:28

that's all you can do. And I've

35:31

done the same as gone back and

35:33

photocopied. So using my, just

35:36

a printer at home, photocopied

35:38

pages of certain

35:40

pages of a book, which I've now taped up

35:42

on the studio wall. And

35:44

I'm not analysing them and going, what is

35:46

it? But they're there. They're in

35:49

my peripheral vision. Yeah. But

35:52

I like looking at those magic eye posters,

35:54

I think. You've

35:56

got to just have stuff and that's why the

35:59

mood board thing works. It's just

36:01

having stuff. It's like what you're feeding yourself

36:03

with and then I think you just have to Trust

36:07

that what's going to come out. It's just going

36:09

to be the next part, isn't it? I

36:12

don't think you can be I suppose what I'm saying

36:14

is I don't think you can be too predictive

36:18

but I do think you have to be conscious

36:20

of Catching

36:23

yourself if you're looking

36:25

for something new and different You

36:28

have to be conscious of catching yourself in

36:30

the habit That yes,

36:32

stop you thinking or stop you doing

36:34

that and the habits are super useful And

36:38

also they can stop us Experiencing

36:41

something differently. So that's

36:43

that's all I'm trying to do at

36:45

the moment and then and then just

36:48

having whether it is I tend to have just

36:50

a big sheet of paper and A

36:52

sharpie because if I do it with a pencil,

36:54

it's too small and it gets lost in the

36:57

model of my studio So I'll have like a

36:59

bigger sheet of paper and a sharpie and when

37:01

I have like literally a rat I'll just write

37:03

it on there You

37:05

know, so it could be something like,

37:07

you know, get more liquid ink

37:10

staining question mark, you know, that's it

37:13

Yeah, well it needs to be like I don't

37:15

need to go. Oh, okay staining. What does that

37:17

look like? All right. I need to sit down

37:19

and figure that out at the moment That's

37:22

all I need is just to like capture that

37:24

little idea And

37:26

then it then it's there then I can go

37:28

back and go. Okay That

37:31

didn't grow into anything or or

37:34

more practically What do I need to make

37:37

available to myself in order for that to

37:39

happen? Like You know,

37:41

I can't I can't do it without the material. So

37:43

go get the material So one of the things I've

37:45

written down this week is I've got lots of lovely

37:47

thick cartridge paper I want lots

37:49

of thin shitty paper Yeah,

37:52

I need to go buy it, you know because I

37:54

and I keep not thinking and turning up in the

37:56

studio and going Oh, oh, well, I haven't got the

37:58

thing I needed. Oh, okay and then

38:01

going away and getting on with life and then going back and go,

38:03

oh, I still don't have to think I need it. Yeah. And

38:06

like that has to happen about three times

38:08

before I actually get my

38:10

art in here and go and order something.

38:13

I went to film something for

38:15

Art Tribe and it was going to be

38:17

with watercolours and then I went, oh, I

38:19

don't have any watercolour paper. OK, I

38:22

got to order some now. And then it took

38:24

about three days to get around to ordering it.

38:27

It's arrived now. I have this quote I

38:29

wanted to read out from Reuben to kind

38:32

of maybe wrap this up.

38:34

It's from his book, The

38:36

Creative Act, and I've shortened

38:39

it as much as I can, but

38:41

he talks about ideas of seeds and

38:43

he says that we collect seeds by

38:46

observing out into the world. And

38:49

he says, as the seeds arise,

38:51

forming conclusions about their value or

38:53

their fate can get in the

38:55

way of their natural potential. In

38:58

this phase, the artist's work is to

39:00

collect seeds, plant them, water them with

39:02

attention and see if they take root.

39:06

Collect many seeds and then over time look

39:08

back and see which ones resonate. Sometimes

39:11

we're too close to them to recognise their true

39:13

potential. And I love

39:16

this. At other times, the magical moment

39:18

that inspired a seed into existence is

39:20

bigger than the seed itself. It's

39:23

generally preferable to accumulate several weeks

39:25

or months worth of ideas and

39:27

then choose which of them to

39:29

focus on instead of following

39:31

an urge to rush to the finish line

39:33

with what is in front of us today.

39:36

And the more seed you've gathered, the easier

39:38

this is to judge. And

39:41

I think therein lies the problem

39:43

with this. And interestingly,

39:46

you missed out the line that is

39:48

the bit that my eyes focused on,

39:50

which is the seed that doesn't get

39:52

watered cannot reveal its ability to bear

39:55

fruit. And I often think, like, say,

39:58

like, when you have something, you have to nurture. You

40:00

have to take care of it. That's like that small

40:02

voice that you've got to give

40:04

that space. Otherwise it's just, it's just not

40:06

going to grow. But this is the problem.

40:08

It takes time and

40:11

it's not a linear thing. It's

40:13

not like everything I pay attention

40:15

to is going to flourish into something

40:17

that bears fruit. And

40:20

there isn't enough, there isn't

40:22

enough time. Yes. But

40:24

there is an enough time. There has to be,

40:26

like there has to be, because what time there

40:28

is has to be enough.

40:30

That's it. And it's when we

40:32

get so wrapped up in

40:35

like in all, in all areas of

40:37

everything, you know, doing A equals B,

40:39

doing A equals B, it's, it's

40:42

frustrating when we find

40:44

ourselves in that trap. And I think

40:47

particularly with creativity and ideas, we have

40:49

to accept that there's going to be

40:51

things that don't happen and that

40:53

we don't have the time to investigate and this isn't

40:55

all going to be done by the middle of March

40:57

or whatever it is. Yeah.

41:00

You know, and that's a hard thing. Yeah.

41:03

And it helps me to think of it. Instead

41:07

of me thinking, Oh, I'm trying to sort

41:09

out this and I'm trying to make

41:11

this idea work, it helps me to

41:14

think about it as if it's coming

41:16

from somewhere else, which might sound a

41:18

bit grandiose, but it helps

41:20

me to imagine that the idea is out

41:22

there in the ether and it's floating around.

41:25

And at the moment it's trying to come

41:27

through me. And if I say

41:30

no, or don't do it,

41:32

then it will go somewhere else. Um,

41:36

but I can, if I listen, it can

41:38

come through and that helps me to not

41:40

beat myself up if, well,

41:42

you should have sorted this out by now

41:44

to imagine it's something outside myself. In

41:47

Liz Gilbert's book, she has a Tom

41:49

Waits, the musician talked about driving

41:52

his car. He was driving in traffic in

41:54

LA and he got this really brilliant idea

41:56

for a song and he actually shouted out.

42:00

Can't you see I'm driving? I can't do

42:02

this at the moment. And

42:05

that idea that these things just pop in,

42:07

but you can say, no, thanks, go somewhere

42:09

else, and it could go to someone else.

42:12

I like that thought. So, yeah, so I

42:14

don't feel so ego driven

42:17

about getting it right because it's not

42:19

mine to get right anyway. No,

42:21

I mean, I think the only thing we can

42:23

do is just be aware of how much in

42:27

the seed analogy, how much space

42:30

and water we're giving to something.

42:33

And, you know, before we started talking and you said,

42:35

you know, not enough attention on

42:37

there's not all the different areas of life.

42:39

Like there's a lot going on

42:41

for all of us. And

42:44

sometimes that means that an area does

42:46

feel squeezed. And and again,

42:48

I think there are times where I would have

42:50

gone, oh, I haven't done what

42:52

I should have done. Well, OK, and tomorrow,

42:55

next week, what

42:57

can you do differently about it? I'm

42:59

not not. It's just just

43:02

as it is. Yeah,

43:05

you know. Yeah, because we're

43:08

recording this podcast earlier than normal because both

43:10

of us have got things we have to

43:12

go do, which are not related. Yeah, we're

43:14

not our thing. No,

43:17

but we're needed. So nice to

43:19

be needed. Yeah. OK, that's

43:21

it for us for this week. We

43:23

hope this discussion has been helpful. I

43:25

think this is a constant challenge for

43:28

artists. So I'm sure that you've experienced

43:30

it. And I bet for

43:32

psychologists as well. So so,

43:35

Joe, I hope this

43:37

resonated for you as well. Well, we're just going

43:39

in circles, basically. I mean, this is. Yeah. Yeah.

43:44

So we will see you next time whenever

43:46

that is. We're being a little bit more

43:48

irregular with our podcast just because we're giving

43:50

ourselves a little bit of that breathing room

43:52

in space. But we are still here and

43:54

we are still making them. So

43:56

we'll see you next time. Find us

43:58

on Instagram. Just putting. names, find

44:01

us on Facebook, find me on YouTube

44:03

and we'll see you next time. Bye!