0:00

I've taken this form, I've exploited

0:02

it, I've worked within this constraint,

0:04

and now it's sort of time to blow it up.

0:11

Hello

0:11

and welcome to episode 228 of

0:13

Art Juice. This

0:16

is honest, generous and humorous conversations

0:18

that will feed your creative soul and

0:20

get you thinking with me, Alice Sheridan,

0:23

and Louise Fletcher is taking a break

0:25

while I take time to talk with today's

0:27

guest. She worked at the Metropolitan

0:30

Museum of Art for 25 years and

0:32

her final project there was writing the wall

0:34

labels for the new British galleries

0:37

and this led to a rather

0:39

unique book that we're going

0:41

to talk about. It tickled

0:43

my fancy, piqued my interest, I

0:46

read it on holiday and I'm really looking forward

0:48

to the discussion, but I think our conversation

0:50

today is going to meander into what it

0:53

takes, what the requirements are in

0:55

the higher end of the art world, how

0:57

we choose words to describe ourselves

1:00

and also probably touch on ideas of ownership,

1:03

women, art. Congratulations

1:06

on your book which I think is actually

1:08

published today and welcome

1:10

Christine Coulson to Art Juice.

1:13

Thank you, thank you for having me.

1:15

So tell us a little bit, what is

1:17

the format of the book because I think

1:20

that's the thing everybody immediately sits

1:22

up and goes, oh juicy, tell me more.

1:24

So first of all, what's the format? Yeah,

1:26

I think the format was very important to me too.

1:30

So the book is written almost

1:32

entirely in museum wall labels

1:34

and you know those little descriptions

1:37

that sit next to every work of art in

1:39

a gallery and that everyone

1:42

kind of just

1:43

blindly reads and

1:46

that habit they have of just kind of consuming

1:48

them. So I've taken this very banal

1:51

form and used it for my

1:53

own narrative purposes. I've

1:56

kept all those things, what we call in the museum

1:58

world, the tombstone information.

1:59

which is the artist and the date

2:02

and the medium and all that. Every page

2:04

has that tombstone and then

2:07

really following

2:09

the rules of the Metropolitan Museum's

2:11

label editors, every description

2:14

is then 75 words or less. So

2:18

that's the constraint, that's the word limit.

2:21

Every page spread

2:24

in the book, on the right you find the label

2:26

just as you would in a gallery. On

2:28

the left though, the page is left blank

2:31

and that's where I imagine

2:33

you as the reader sort of conjuring

2:35

the work of art. And so I love

2:38

this idea of this complicity

2:40

in the process that you as

2:42

the reader have to kind of create

2:45

in your mind what I'm describing.

2:48

I've never in the

2:50

book, I mean the book is the story of a life,

2:53

it's the kind of retrospective exhibition

2:56

of a woman, 20th century woman, not

3:02

particularly likeable but

3:04

has a story about how

3:06

she is treated almost like

3:08

a work of art and evaluated

3:11

and prized and collected from

3:14

her earliest childhood throughout

3:16

her life. But I never

3:18

actually describe what she looks like

3:21

or any of the details because I want

3:23

you to be actively engaged

3:26

in that making. And

3:30

it's a lovely idea that because

3:32

I think one of the, well

3:34

for me anyway, one of the really important parts

3:36

of art is the element that you do

3:39

as the creator and then the finishing

3:41

of the story is what the viewer sees

3:43

or takes from it. So I

3:45

love that you've left space for that in

3:48

the book. The book is called

3:50

One Woman Show, anybody go and look

3:52

it up. The advance copy that I got just

3:54

had plain cover and then a beautiful,

3:57

beautiful book arrived in the

3:59

post. is absolutely gorgeous.

4:01

It would make a delicious Christmas

4:05

gift wouldn't it? I agree,

4:07

I agree. I worked very

4:09

hard on that cover so I'm glad to hear you say

4:11

that. Oh no, lovely. Because

4:13

I think that the book itself had to feel

4:16

like an object. Yes. It had to reflect

4:19

the sort of notions that I'm raising in the book

4:21

about the sort of objectness of things

4:24

and their presence in the world. I wanted you

4:26

to feel that. Okay, let's

4:28

backstep a little bit because I want to hear

4:30

about how you

4:32

came into doing this. Because ideas

4:36

often take quite a time to grow. They often

4:39

start as like a little tiny niggle and

4:41

then they get louder. Sometimes they fade into

4:43

the background for a while. How

4:47

did this come about? Was this one of

4:49

those ideas that was like an inspirational

4:51

idea or did it come from a niggle

4:54

of frustration with how you were having to work?

4:56

Tell us what you were doing. You know

4:58

it's interesting because I think this is one of the rare

5:01

times when I as a writer

5:03

or any artist, I can actually pinpoint

5:05

the exact moment when

5:08

I had this idea where I was

5:10

standing, what was happening and I

5:12

was writing for

5:14

the British galleries and I was collaborating

5:16

with a team of extraordinary curators

5:19

and I was a

5:21

speechwriter for the museum for a very long time

5:23

and so this was a little bit like speech writing in that

5:26

I would sit with them and they would talk

5:28

about these works of art and we'd have to find a story.

5:30

I mean if you have only 75 words

5:33

you have to pick a story about the

5:35

object that you're going to tell. Some

5:38

of the curators really embraced this idea

5:40

of having me write for them in

5:43

this way. Others were

5:45

a little more resistant and they

5:48

were a brilliant, colorful group

5:51

and I remember after one particularly difficult

5:53

meeting, standing

5:56

and watching one of the curators

5:58

who was very frustrated. walk away and I

6:00

thought, I'd love to write a label about

6:03

him. And it was sort

6:05

of like, boom,

6:07

that's it. That's what I'm gonna do. I'm

6:09

gonna try and write

6:11

museum labels about people

6:14

and try and take this language

6:17

that was this all-knowing institutional

6:20

voice and this kind of notoriously

6:22

boring form and apply

6:25

it to the human experience. And

6:27

it's thrilling to do. I

6:29

mean, it's remarkably, this is easy, but

6:32

it's kind of seamless how ideas

6:35

about provenance and

6:39

re-attribution and changing tastes

6:41

and when we have a flaw in

6:43

a work of art in a museum, we say it has condition

6:46

issues. And I think we as human beings

6:48

all have condition issues. And

6:51

so I love that idea of thinking

6:54

about human beings as exquisite works

6:56

of art. It's interesting,

6:59

because this idea of, and you talk about

7:01

a little bit about the battle between, I can imagine,

7:06

it's like the educational information that you

7:08

want to get across and

7:10

the story

7:11

element.

7:12

How does that come around? Because you must

7:15

have a huge amount of information that

7:17

you have to distill. Is that literally just

7:19

a discussion between, as you

7:21

say, the curation team? How does that

7:23

figure? I mean, as a med, curators

7:26

usually write their own labels and do a brilliant job.

7:28

Because we were re-imagining the

7:31

British galleries and it was

7:33

four centuries worth of objects and

7:36

the curator there was very innovative and he

7:38

wanted, because he had so many curators

7:40

involved, the tapestry curator, the silver curator,

7:43

he wanted to create

7:45

a voice for the galleries themselves.

7:48

So when the visitor walked through, they would have this kind

7:50

of consistent companion through

7:53

the galleries. And I think

7:55

because I had been at the museum for so long, there

7:58

was a trust that I would respect. the

8:00

kind of curatorial voice and

8:02

create these labels, but he wanted something

8:04

distinctive. So it was

8:06

very collaborative, though

8:09

I am very also strict

8:12

about I never do any research,

8:14

I never contribute any kind of knowledge

8:17

base, I never look anything up,

8:20

anything that comes into the

8:22

labels is from a curator. And

8:24

so we would sit and we'd talk about

8:27

whatever it was, I mean if you were looking at a silver

8:30

teapot you could talk about you know

8:33

18th century silver and middle class

8:35

consumption or you could talk about the

8:38

form, you could talk about the style, you could talk about

8:40

the maker, the collector, you could talk about

8:42

the tea trade and slavery,

8:44

I mean there's so many directions of which

8:46

you could go but you only have 75

8:49

words. So that idea of

8:52

choosing a story together

8:55

and then giving it to me

8:57

to find the words in the most potent way

8:59

possible to deliver that story in

9:02

a compelling way. And that

9:04

too feeds into this book because

9:06

in the end what you're

9:08

getting as you see this life unfold

9:11

is a very particular point of view, a curated

9:13

view of a life. And I think we butt

9:15

up against this all the time now in our own

9:18

lives as people present themselves on

9:20

Instagram or something like that. I mean that

9:22

sense of what's

9:25

being left out, what's being

9:27

left behind and there's a certain point

9:29

in the book when those

9:32

voices that come into the text

9:34

start to undermine the authority of these

9:36

labels because you start to understand

9:39

that maybe things are more complicated than they

9:41

appear. And I love

9:43

that sense of a

9:46

narrator becoming a little bit unreliable

9:48

and again you becoming

9:50

involved in discerning what

9:55

the more complex version of this story

9:57

might be. It does touch on

9:59

how we represent ourselves

10:02

and what we allow people to see and

10:05

how we control that story.

10:07

And this whole thing, like, I mean, we

10:09

start this podcast

10:11

honest and if you're

10:13

a long time listener, you'll know

10:15

that we do show up fairly honestly

10:18

and you

10:20

get the real side of us, you get the happy side,

10:22

you get when things go wrong, you

10:25

get emotion sometimes

10:27

and also you're still not seeing the whole picture,

10:30

obviously. And I think this

10:32

whole idea of what we allow ourselves

10:35

to reveal is

10:38

really, it's really interesting, particularly

10:41

for artists because it should be,

10:44

in a way, it's so essential to

10:46

how the work is created in the

10:48

first place and yet when it comes to writing

10:50

about it, it's really

10:52

hard very often. And

10:55

I don't know if it's a question of distilling

10:57

it to the right words or even putting

10:59

things into words or probably

11:02

both.

11:03

Do we let the work do the speaking?

11:05

Is that enough? How

11:09

much effort do we have to put into the words that

11:11

we say about it? Yeah,

11:13

and I'm not sure you should have to explain

11:15

it. You

11:17

know, I have a lot of friends who

11:19

are artists and I think, of course,

11:22

they're terrible at writing about their work, that's not

11:24

what they do. I would be, you

11:26

know, I couldn't paint this book, I had

11:28

to write this book because that's what I do. I

11:30

mean, your form of expression comes from

11:33

inside you and so the

11:35

idea that every

11:37

artist should be able to explain

11:40

their work cogently in some kind of statement,

11:44

I think is a hell of a lot to ask of

11:46

someone who's,

11:49

that's not what they do, that's not, if they

11:51

could do that, they wouldn't have had to paint it in

11:53

the first place. You know, art

11:56

as an expression of something that's almost inexpressible.

12:00

any other way. I think

12:03

it's odd that we then add a

12:05

layer and say like, well now can you explain

12:07

it? Yeah, and particularly

12:09

in such short form as well, it really compartmentalises

12:13

everything, doesn't it? Whereas actually everything

12:15

is much bigger than that. Nonetheless, wall

12:17

labels do exist. I asked on Instagram,

12:19

I did a little bit of a poll, I said,

12:21

tell me what you think about, tell

12:24

me what you know what it's going to say, don't you? Tell

12:26

me what you think about wall labels.

12:28

And we had everything from, I love

12:31

reading the story behind it, helps

12:33

me gain awareness, especially if the art

12:35

is hard to understand, gives me

12:37

another layer of information. I think

12:40

this is interesting. I read them after

12:42

looking at the work. Good, good. Good,

12:45

yeah, I agree. I'm glad you agree with

12:47

that. The more information,

12:49

the better they help me connect. Then,

12:52

and I think this is an interesting point,

12:54

they can be distracting. Please,

12:57

can you make the print bigger, lol?

13:00

I like information

13:02

like the title of the media, but no words

13:04

to influence my response. And

13:07

sometimes I wish they were written in

13:09

everyday language.

13:11

That

13:12

language has a role in being very

13:14

precise, but it can get a bit over

13:17

complicated, can't it? It's

13:19

not how you would speak, is it? No,

13:22

and because of the,

13:24

well, at the same time, I will resist

13:27

against that a little bit because one of the things I can't

13:29

stand when you go into a museum is

13:31

an overly

13:34

familiar kind of label that says

13:36

things like, can you find the puppy

13:39

in the painting? And I find

13:41

that so condescending. So

13:44

I think there's a balance of being compelling

13:46

and sharp and really readable. But

13:49

to me, the great labels always

13:51

drive looking. They should send you back

13:53

to the work of art. And

13:56

I love the person who said they read the label

13:59

after they look. I

14:02

would argue the most important thing you

14:04

can do is look and not

14:06

leave, like resist reading the label

14:09

for a bit, you know. I think that

14:12

that muscle of looking is

14:15

not very honed in many people and so

14:17

they look at the label because they just

14:19

feel like everybody else knows what they're

14:22

doing but them and so they've got it, you know,

14:24

it's a bad habit that people have to just

14:26

look at the work of art for a few seconds and then

14:29

they look at the label and then they kind of move

14:31

on. I would argue kind of

14:33

walk around and find that

14:35

work of art that just kind of stops you in your tracks

14:38

for whatever reason because that's

14:40

a response from you, that's a

14:42

kind of visceral response to

14:44

the object and then look

14:46

at that work of art where either push

14:49

yourself to look at it for 10 or 15 minutes

14:51

and unpack why

14:54

you've had that response to that thing

14:56

and I think it could be

14:58

tremendously satisfying for people and

15:01

people underestimate their ability to really

15:04

look and understand a work of art

15:06

and have that work of art

15:08

reveal itself to you over

15:10

a little bit of time and it's not a lot

15:12

of time but considering that

15:14

people find you to spend seconds in front

15:17

of a work of art, just spending a little more

15:19

time with it, look at the surface, look at the

15:21

edges, consider the

15:23

choices the artist has made and

15:26

just kind of let it reveal

15:28

itself to you. It's so

15:31

satisfying and so pleasurable and

15:33

then if you need to take a look at the label but

15:36

I don't think you, you

15:38

know, art can be like music. I mean no

15:40

one asks people to read something about

15:42

a piece of music before they listen to it. They

15:45

just let it happen and you use

15:47

your own and you might like it, you may not like it.

15:49

I think we should get used

15:52

to doing the same thing for our visual

15:54

life. It would be very

15:56

interesting wouldn't it if there was a whole gallery

16:00

or museum that had collected

16:03

art with no wall labels whatsoever,

16:05

because often they can almost be, you

16:08

know, they've passed obviously some kind of curation

16:10

process to get in in the first place,

16:14

and to be collected together.

16:16

But there is a sort of stamp of approval that

16:18

comes from that. And it's really,

16:21

it's

16:21

one of the most interesting things to do, I think,

16:24

is watch people go round an exhibition, because

16:26

you do have people who literally, they

16:28

stop at every painting, they read the label, they look at it,

16:31

and then they move on. It's almost as

16:33

if I need to get my money's worth

16:35

from looking at everything. And personally,

16:38

I find that quite visually

16:40

overwhelming. You can't possibly take in

16:42

that much information. It's too much. Absolutely

16:46

exhausting. And I think that's why people feel

16:48

this kind of fatigue from museums, because

16:51

they feel that obligation to doing

16:54

that. And they also have no sense of,

16:56

when you walk into an exhibition, how big

16:58

it is. So there's also this lingering

17:01

of like, I need to do this, but I also don't know,

17:03

are there three more rooms, or are there eight

17:05

more rooms? I mean, so there's this sense

17:07

of not having your bearings. And I think museums

17:10

just exhaust people because they feel

17:12

that pressure. And

17:15

I would like the public to kind of

17:17

take more ownership of those

17:19

places and just do it on their

17:21

own terms. Don't

17:23

feel that sense of

17:25

you must and you have to, and it needs

17:28

to be this way. I think,

17:30

you know, I'm

17:31

all for, you know, I really

17:33

have tremendous respect,

17:36

obviously, for

17:38

curatorial work, scholarship, what

17:41

is brought into those exhibitions, what it

17:43

takes to create them. I mean, decades

17:45

sometimes. But

17:48

I think any curator would tell you what

17:50

they want you to do most of all is

17:52

not read their 75-word description, but

17:55

look at this work of art that they've brought

17:57

from the other side of the world for you

17:59

to indulge in.

17:59

him.

18:00

That priority is

18:03

always there for both

18:06

people like me who are participating in the process

18:09

but curators themselves who are the driving

18:11

force behind it. Yeah

18:14

it's a lovely thing and I tend to go round and

18:17

and find, do exactly as you say and I

18:19

remember it was almost a decision

18:22

the day I decided to do this and

18:24

I think it might have been when I had younger children

18:26

and it was almost like an antidote

18:29

to those school trips where you have to go and look

18:31

at particular paintings and like learn all

18:33

the things about them and I remember going

18:35

around with the children and just

18:37

thinking okay there is no way I

18:40

can't control this I want

18:42

to see what their response is going to be

18:45

and saying okay which one do we

18:47

want to go and look at and then almost just

18:50

looking at that painting together and

18:52

then leaving and and then that

18:55

being enough and I

18:57

try to do that now and it is interesting

18:59

often how I

19:02

would say sometimes it leads me to

19:04

overlook particular paintings and

19:07

what I love to do as an exhibition is then

19:09

go back and revisit

19:11

the ones I really want to see again before I leave.

19:13

It's been really brought together for a reason

19:15

and the physicality of it is

19:18

so important so an image isn't going

19:20

to do it either so

19:22

that

19:22

that you can't just buy the catalogue and the

19:25

hope that that's not going to do

19:27

and just going back to what you said I also

19:29

think the leaving is incredibly important

19:33

to kind of consume a work

19:35

of art and then walk away and

19:37

hold it with you. It stays

19:40

with you and it's kind of part

19:42

of you then and I think it's an incredible

19:45

experience to have when you let yourself

19:50

have that relationship with an object

19:52

and keep it with you and for something you can

19:55

revisit again like return to

19:57

it as a kind of friend, as a talisman,

20:00

stone, you've changed,

20:02

it's remained the same, the world has changed so that

20:05

just like friends that relationship

20:07

evolves and grows and I

20:10

just think it's one of the most satisfying things

20:12

you can participate in. So

20:14

when you started at the Museum as

20:16

you said you were doing speech writing and

20:19

what about? When I started at the Museum I was,

20:21

I mean I started at the Museum as an intern 30 years

20:25

ago. You were doing anything

20:27

and everything? I was doing anything and they were probably

20:29

the best job I ever had was when I was an intern.

20:32

I was translating the correspondence

20:34

between Mary Cassatt,

20:37

the great American impressionist painter, and

20:39

Louisine Havermeyer who was an amazing

20:42

American collector and we had all these letters

20:45

between the two of them and I would sit and read

20:47

the letters and explain. They went

20:49

to see this Rembrandt exhibition and said

20:52

that the curator could write their catalogue

20:55

essay. It was a fantastic job.

20:58

But then when I went back to the Museum after graduate

21:00

school to work I was hired to write exhibition

21:04

descriptions for

21:06

the fundraising office.

21:08

So I was a writer there

21:11

for years and then a big

21:14

chunk of the centre of my career was as

21:16

a speech writer to the director. Okay

21:19

so this brings us back then to this

21:22

idea that although we say all right you're a visual

21:24

artist you shouldn't have to.

21:27

The reality is it does need

21:29

to exist and for some people like

21:33

in that poll that the labels or

21:35

the writing that we do about our work

21:37

are a way in. They are a way of opening the

21:39

door. They're a way a little bit of shining

21:42

a spotlight onto something that people might

21:44

not necessarily see or know or

21:46

pick up for themselves

21:49

about the work. What's the process

21:51

that you go through for starting

21:53

perhaps with like a whole cloud of ideas

21:56

to distilling down to what

21:58

are the key things. that you feel

22:00

need to be fed? Yeah, I

22:02

mean, it's a big part of the writing for this

22:04

book was to decide, you

22:07

know, each label is a kind of moment

22:10

in this life. And I was, you know,

22:12

pushing the form as much as I could.

22:14

I mean, I was challenging myself because I am writing

22:17

a novel. So I need things like character

22:19

development and plot. And I

22:21

needed to push the form as much as I could.

22:23

So, you know, could I

22:25

write an emotional label? Could I write a

22:28

funny label? Could I write a sexy

22:30

label? And how do you kind of stretch

22:32

and pull that and sit down to do

22:35

that kind of writing and then

22:37

distill it down to those 75 words. So

22:40

it's not just, you know, what do I want

22:43

to say? But it's how do I want to say

22:45

it? And I think artists will butt

22:47

up against that as well. And it's

22:51

the form I think is most important

22:55

in delivering what you want to say and

22:57

how you want to say it. I mean, you know, I

22:59

can imagine an artist just kind

23:01

of writing down a list

23:03

of very declarative sentences

23:06

about what they are putting into

23:10

a work of art and skipping

23:13

the kind of poetic dependent

23:16

clause, dependency

23:18

of, you know, label talk. You

23:21

know, it's a great trick of labels to

23:23

kind of combine a

23:26

lot of ideas into sort of one sentence

23:28

and then really sort of stick

23:30

the landing in the end. And

23:32

I'm not sure that form lends itself to

23:35

the expression of something by an artist

23:38

about why they're doing something. You

23:41

know, I would challenge an artist to sort of just

23:43

create a list of words to begin. And

23:47

I've often done that to write these labels. Sometimes

23:49

the label is driven by, I

23:52

think of some kind of clever

23:55

art historical term, like condition issues

23:57

or something that I want to use. And so how

23:59

do I, I work that in. So sometimes

24:02

the story is driving the writing, but

24:04

sometimes the writing is driving the story and

24:06

I think artists

24:09

could play with that as well and kind of abandon

24:11

the traditional expectation

24:14

of the sort of press release

24:16

chatter. That's a nice thing.

24:18

So you're talking about, you know, playing within

24:21

your form. So this

24:23

is the structure, this is the form, and within that

24:25

you can play. And I think what's nice

24:27

about the book is there is a kind of rhythm and

24:30

a flow to it and it does change,

24:32

like the pace changes. I

24:36

think that's important to

24:38

say in terms of writing is that it is an

24:40

extension of your

24:43

art and it's okay,

24:45

in fact better than okay, important

24:48

and essential to be yourself. It's not

24:50

like you have to stick to one way of writing about

24:52

your art. Let's have

24:55

an example, shall we, of one

24:58

part. Well, let's go. I'll

25:01

read an example that probably represents,

25:04

you know, the real pushing of the form.

25:06

And my kind of

25:08

sense in the end of

25:13

this writing process that you

25:15

could really write a label about

25:17

anything. And so this is about

25:20

midway through the book, our

25:23

main character Kitty, who

25:25

is all about maintaining

25:29

her position at this

25:32

point. At the height of her powers, it's about 1950. And

25:35

so this is her lunch one

25:38

day.

25:41

Tuna Sated in White Toast

25:43

with Current Sticks. Lunch, 1950.

25:48

Collection of William Paul's Specialty

25:50

Foods and Catering. 1051

25:52

Lexington Avenue, New

25:55

York City. A rectilinear

25:58

composition of four diminutive

26:00

sandwich triangles punctuates

26:03

a circular porcelain plate in

26:05

an abstract portrait of caloric

26:08

constraint. Three

26:10

orange stripes, peeled carrots

26:12

of limited dimension, add

26:15

to the Mondrian rigger, drawing

26:17

the eye without tempting the palette.

26:20

Kitty eats this still-life alone

26:22

and with the quiet resolve

26:24

of a squirrel unable to temper

26:27

the determined lust of its consumption.

26:30

A cigarette follows. Do

26:33

you know what I really enjoy about it? I

26:35

love the fact that it forces us to slow

26:38

down

26:41

and to absorb slowly. It's

26:42

like

26:45

every word in there is a little morsel. It's

26:47

not like racing through to find a page turner.

26:50

Yeah, although I've

26:53

been really thrilled to hear that a lot

26:55

of people, because the book is short, they've

26:58

read it twice because the first time they

27:00

really want to go through the plot because

27:03

the plot, it tumbles along. I mean, you

27:05

don't think that could happen with labels, but it does.

27:08

It kind of propels itself and you are going

27:10

through an entire life that's

27:12

nearly a century. And

27:14

then they go back to read it again because they

27:16

want to find the Easter eggs and all the little

27:19

links and loops that come

27:21

back. And so for me, that's

27:23

really satisfying as a writer because people

27:25

are digging into the language itself. And

27:28

every so often there's a little part

27:30

that isn't a wall label. And

27:34

I quite like those because that's almost

27:36

like a crack

27:39

in the plating and you suddenly

27:41

get this little extra insight

27:43

that sort

27:45

of feels very real and very vibrant

27:48

and it's short and it just leaves

27:50

you gasping

27:53

for a little bit more really. And then

27:55

there's a lot of energy in those little interruptions.

27:58

So when I was writing, I got out of it. I

28:00

had written about 40 of the labels. And

28:04

that architecture was very solid, but

28:06

I felt like, okay, as

28:09

you often do, and you probably do this in painting

28:11

as well, that there's a moment when you just feel

28:14

like, yep, it's time to disrupt

28:16

it. Yes, yes. I've taken

28:18

this form, I've exploited it, I've

28:20

worked within this constraint, and now

28:22

it's sort of time to blow it up. And so

28:24

those insertions of occasional

28:28

dialogue, which I think about

28:31

as kind of when you're in

28:33

an exhibition and you're reading the labels,

28:36

and then there are those people behind you who are

28:38

chatting about the work

28:40

of art and their kind of contradiction

28:43

what you're reading in the label, but there's that kind of gallery

28:45

chatter. I think that of the dialogue

28:47

bits a little bit like that, that these just voices

28:50

that come into the exhibition

28:52

that I'm creating and

28:54

undermining it in just the right way

28:57

that does add energy, because I think

28:59

without it, it could get a little bit like labels,

29:02

a little bit too steady. And

29:06

so it needed a little bit of

29:08

disruption.

29:10

Do you have a vision of Kitty? I

29:12

mean, I can imagine as a writer, you

29:14

have a vision in your mind. Do you

29:17

literally have

29:19

a visual mood

29:21

board

29:22

or a sheer combination of a lot of

29:25

women that you might- Well, here's

29:27

the thing about Kitty, who is the main

29:29

character in the book. She, when

29:32

I first decided to do this, I

29:35

just thought, well, let me experiment. Let me just write

29:38

one and see if I can write a label about

29:40

a person. And I just

29:43

wrote this label about

29:45

a kind of very patrician woman standing

29:47

in the gallery, a kind of Park Avenue

29:50

matron. I had no investment

29:52

in her whatsoever. I called her Kitty.

29:55

And that was- And she was

29:57

the first one. She was the first one. She was the

29:59

first one.

29:59

Let me just see if I can do this. And

30:02

I wrote about her and I thought, huh,

30:04

all right. Well, now I'm gonna challenge myself to,

30:07

I'm gonna write 20 labels about Kitty and

30:09

let's just see what happens. And she literally

30:11

just, and I know people say this all the time and it sounds

30:14

really hokey, but she took over the book. As

30:16

a character, she just had something

30:19

to say. And so I

30:21

didn't intend to write a book about

30:24

a woman, about, I

30:26

just wanted to see if I could do it. And then I

30:28

thought, oh, well, there's something here.

30:30

And so she

30:32

came and I wanted

30:35

to write in the language. A lot

30:37

of the language in the book is about porcelain. And

30:39

I wanted to, so I needed a kind of porcelain

30:42

life. And so having a

30:44

woman that was sort of privileged

30:47

and constrained and quite fragile

30:50

in her way, you know, the thing about porcelain

30:52

is it's hard, but it's fragile.

30:55

It's very limited utility. It's

30:57

made of fire. It's easily

31:00

moved around and grouped with other objects,

31:02

you know, and it's very

31:05

hard to hide its damage. And

31:07

so in the end, the way

31:11

the book kind of emerged was

31:13

kind of a character kind of surfacing

31:16

for me. And so I

31:20

didn't have an image particularly

31:22

of her that I was working

31:24

from, but she was kind

31:26

of appearing as I went. And

31:28

I write on a wall. So

31:32

I write the pages and then I taped

31:35

them up on the wall. And the

31:37

label that was

31:39

the first label is very close

31:42

to the end of the book. I mean, I think Kitty

31:44

is 91 years old in that label. And

31:47

so the process wasn't

31:49

linear at all. But you know, the

31:51

book kind of spread like an ink blot across

31:54

this wall. And I would have an idea

31:56

and I would write it and I'd tape it up onto the

31:58

wall. And so the book kind of... was

32:00

pieced together in a way. And

32:04

I really wanted people to

32:07

not have a specific image of Kitty to conjure

32:09

their own. And so I

32:11

have an idea about who

32:14

she is and what she looks like. And she's

32:17

based on a lot of

32:19

women of her type

32:21

who I experienced at the museum.

32:23

I love them. They were so

32:25

smart and clever.

32:29

But they did have these limitations

32:32

placed on their lives because of when they

32:35

were born. I mean, it sounds like, as you

32:37

say, it was an idea that just landed. But it's

32:39

a Metropolitan Stories book. Is

32:41

that only available in the US? We can't get

32:44

that. No, you can get that here. Oh, you can get that.

32:46

Okay. Because

32:48

that's stories as well, but short stories.

32:50

It sounds like you're interested in

32:52

this form

32:55

of being able to sort of jump

32:57

and how they all fit together to form

33:00

a whole picture. Yes.

33:02

So Metropolitan Stories was the novel

33:04

I wrote about the museum

33:07

itself. And that is, it's

33:11

a novel only because you need to read the stories

33:13

in order. And it's

33:16

from 16 different points of view from

33:18

different characters throughout the museum. So

33:21

the second chapter is written

33:23

from the point of view of an

33:26

18th century chair in one of the French

33:28

period rooms. And then later

33:31

on the book, you get the point

33:33

of view of the guys who changed the light

33:35

bulbs in the museum. And so

33:37

there's a chapter devoted

33:39

to the director and the young

33:43

women who work at the parties. And

33:46

so you get this whole collective portrait

33:48

of the museum. But

33:50

yes, from a kind of fragmented

33:53

and ultimately, again, just like this

33:55

book, linked point

33:57

of view, because you realize by the by the the

34:00

time you get to the end, who's reappeared

34:02

again and how those repetitions

34:04

add to this tapestry of

34:07

a place, an institution, a kind of family.

34:10

Both of them have quite kind of solid

34:13

formulas and structures. Once you've

34:15

landed with that, do you stay happily within

34:18

that or do you have a patch where you want

34:20

to resist it or do battle and say

34:22

this is too constraining and I want to break out,

34:24

I want to do something differently? Do you have that

34:27

tuffle with it or are you happy with it? Definitely.

34:30

I think that I love a form,

34:32

I love constraint, I love to put

34:34

limitations on something. I just

34:37

wrote a story for, contributed to

34:39

another book where I wrote an

34:41

entire story with words

34:44

beginning with the letter E. The whole

34:48

story. The whole story and it

34:52

was so much fun to do and it was

34:54

a very arbitrary thing to do but I thought,

34:56

let's give it a go. I

34:59

think sometimes the best things come

35:02

out of you when you put limitations

35:05

on your

35:07

powers of creativity because

35:10

by compressing things, I

35:13

don't know, it has to squeeze out of you in

35:15

a way that is better than if

35:18

it's just a big

35:19

old

35:20

blank page.

35:23

I really love to work within

35:26

form. I love the

35:28

challenge of it. I love the puzzle of it

35:32

and I think it's very motivating as you're

35:34

working. I'm very

35:36

ritualistic about the way

35:39

that I work and I like

35:41

almost superstitiously so.

35:44

I write for five hours a day between

35:46

the exact same times and I don't take

35:49

breaks and I'm very relieved.

35:54

Yes, don't gloss over this. I'm

35:56

really relieved in that. I

36:00

have the same, when I'm writing, I sit

36:02

in the same chair at the same restaurant

36:05

and have the same breakfast every single day. And

36:08

I sit there in, you know, in the morning

36:11

from 8.30 to 10 a.m. and

36:13

do all my admin for the day, all

36:15

the, anything that could possibly come in,

36:17

you know, my children's dentist appointments or

36:19

whatever. And then that all goes

36:21

away when I sit in the chair. And

36:24

then when I sit down to write, I spend

36:26

five hours in that chair. No tea breaks,

36:28

no coffee, no, I mean, the

36:30

bathroom was the only thing. And

36:33

I really feel that if you commit

36:35

to that, so then I sit there for five hours. And it's

36:37

like

36:38

waiting for a bus.

36:41

Like if

36:43

you leave, the bus might come, and if you're

36:45

not there, then you'll miss it. But

36:48

if you're there, it'll happen. And

36:50

I really believe in that. And so

36:52

that commitment to that time, it

36:55

just always works for

36:57

me to just allow

36:59

it to happen. And some days are amazing,

37:01

and some days are hopeless,

37:04

but there's something about

37:06

the ritual of it. And

37:08

then stopping, and then

37:10

I eat lunch at 3 o'clock, and then

37:12

I, you know, usually take a nap, and then I'll,

37:15

you know, revisit things or read in the afternoon.

37:19

I don't know, there's something about removing

37:22

all

37:24

the variables and options from

37:27

your life, and just sitting

37:29

in the same place at the same time for the same amount

37:32

of time that allows the imagination

37:34

to ignite. It's something

37:36

that you often hear writers say, and

37:41

I wonder if there's something personality wise

37:44

that pulls you towards writing when

37:47

you have, because

37:50

that takes a certain amount of control

37:52

or decision making

37:54

and commitment to doing that. I just wonder

37:57

if that suits certain people. hearing

38:00

you talk about that, I'm

38:02

thinking, could

38:04

I paint in the same way? And

38:07

I know that some people do. And

38:10

I know for me, like my

38:14

energy level, like the amount

38:16

that I'm pulled in by something, it varies

38:20

quite a lot. And so just

38:22

this idea of consistency with working

38:24

versus responding to what you feel. Like

38:27

when you're in your writing

38:29

space, in your writing chair, and those

38:31

are the five hours.

38:34

Are you writing for all the five hours

38:37

always? Do you make yourself write even

38:39

if it's nothing? Or do you allow space for

38:41

a sort of time and not

38:44

doing things? How do you feel that your

38:46

personality has fed in to that process?

38:48

It's interesting. I've never really thought about

38:50

how the five hours passes. No

38:53

one's ever asked me that. So it's kind of interesting

38:55

to think about when I say it,

38:57

five hours seems like a long time, but it

38:59

just doesn't. And I'm also one of those people

39:02

who doesn't, I don't suffer

39:05

writing. I love writing. I

39:07

love putting down with verb.

39:09

I love that process. So I

39:12

always think I'm kind of not quite legit

39:14

as a writer because I'm not suffering

39:16

through it. I really enjoy

39:18

it. So

39:20

yeah, I'm writing the whole time

39:22

or sometimes

39:25

I go like word shopping. So

39:27

I'll go and I'll sort of just be

39:30

looking through things. And there's a catalytic,

39:33

especially with this book, when I would look through

39:36

old Metropolitan

39:38

Museum guidebooks from the

39:40

80s. I have a lot of them. And

39:43

I'd open a book and read some like

39:45

esoteric description of a medieval

39:48

chalice or something and think, oh, there's something

39:50

in there. There's a,

39:53

I could steal that little nugget.

39:56

And so there's a little bit of that.

40:00

But for the most part it goes by in

40:03

a nice way and for me, you

40:06

know, a lot of times I would spend those five hours

40:08

and I'd come out with one label which means I

40:10

just spent five hours writing 75 words

40:14

which is not particularly productive for a novelist

40:16

but that

40:19

satisfaction and I

40:22

don't know if you feel this way about painting like if

40:24

you get that perfect

40:26

brushstroke or that thing that sort of resolves

40:28

itself. I mean if I write one

40:31

great sentence in a day,

40:33

in a week, I just keep

40:35

reading that sentence over and over to myself

40:38

and just think, okay, I just

40:41

need that juice to keep coming but

40:44

I'm really fueled by

40:46

that one thing that

40:49

I've nailed rather

40:52

than focusing on all the things

40:54

that need to be done and what is missing. Yeah,

40:57

it's those little moments, those sparks

40:59

isn't it, when something really kind of lands or

41:02

you think, oh that's right and for me often the

41:04

distance between doing something and then leaving

41:06

and then coming back and seeing it fresh the next day

41:09

and it can go one way or the other. You can kind of think,

41:11

oh I had a cracking day and turn up the next morning

41:13

and think what is that? Or

41:16

what's in there? Or

41:18

vice versa. Sometimes you think, I didn't really

41:20

do much, you come in the next morning and see

41:22

it from a different angle or a different viewpoint and

41:24

think, oh there's something really beautiful in there. I

41:27

didn't know that's what I was going to set out to create.

41:30

And I think, yes and isn't that so satisfying

41:32

when you realize, oh that's not

41:34

what I was doing but maybe that's what I'm doing. Yeah

41:37

and sometimes you need the

41:40

distance of the next day to sort

41:42

of begin to see that. I mean this book,

41:45

The Way It Works,

41:48

as her life unfolds there's a lot of attention

41:51

to her when she's young and very beautiful and full

41:53

of potential. And then as the book kind of

41:55

funnels down as she gets older and as

41:57

there's kind of less attention to her.

42:00

It suddenly occurred to me, oh, well,

42:03

I can just skip a decade.

42:05

It doesn't matter. I can jump to the next

42:08

label if I want to. I can always come

42:10

back and fill it in if I need to. But that idea

42:13

that, you know what? I think the reader can

42:15

handle that. I think the reader can handle

42:18

it if I want to jump. I don't think they're going

42:20

to recognize that. And isn't that exactly

42:22

what happens to a woman where people

42:24

sort of stop paying attention when

42:27

she's older? And so isn't this reflective

42:29

of the thing? I didn't set out to

42:32

create, to write in that form.

42:35

But what appeared to me and the liberty

42:37

I felt empowered to take later

42:39

on in the process kind of jumped

42:42

out at me in a way that I then had to kind

42:44

of harness. You've got to grab hold of those moments

42:47

too and be willing to pursue them.

42:50

Yeah. And it's really interesting. I can hear

42:52

the satisfaction when you say about when you've got

42:54

these constraints, there's a satisfaction about

42:57

building it over time and

42:59

being able to play within those and

43:01

create something. There's

43:04

a sense of progress that

43:06

I think maybe feels a little

43:08

bit clearer and is

43:12

easier to appreciate and enjoy

43:14

as the creator when you've got some

43:17

constraints. Otherwise it can be

43:19

too open-ended, can't it? Yes.

43:21

And it's a bit like, I feel

43:23

like the wall is for me

43:26

a bit like doing the crossword puzzle

43:28

or something. I can see how well I'm doing.

43:30

I can see the big holes. But

43:32

there's also something very visual about,

43:35

and I have photographs of the wall

43:37

as I went when it was 10 labels, when

43:39

it was 20 labels, when it was 30,

43:42

and then sort of as it really spread

43:45

and then the kind of moving around

43:47

of pages in order to create something.

43:50

It's a very physical and very visual

43:53

process. And I think

43:55

that's another kind of satisfaction

43:58

of understanding. what you're building. So

44:02

am I right? This is published today, October the

44:04

17th? Yes, it is indeed.

44:06

And so it should be available

44:09

everywhere. So if this has

44:11

tempted your curiosity, as I say, it would be a lovely

44:14

book to ask for for Christmas or Treat

44:16

Yourself, why not? The book is

44:18

called One Woman Show by

44:20

Christine Paulson and the

44:22

other story is Metropolitan

44:25

Stories is the previous book. So

44:27

go and have a look at both of those.

44:30

Thank you so much for your time joining us

44:32

today. I know you're in London at the moment

44:34

and no doubt busy with a lot of things

44:36

to do. What else do you have on your

44:38

schedule for the rest of the week? You

44:40

know, I have to say I'm a little sad.

44:43

I don't have much time to go to museums

44:45

this visit. So I'm

44:48

missing a lot rather than diving

44:50

in. So I'm missing France Hall's and I'm

44:53

missing the Polo Rigo at the

44:55

National Gallery. So

44:58

but it's great to be here and to talk

45:00

about this book and Kitty

45:03

and have such a wonderfully

45:06

open discussion about writing

45:11

and what's possible in form

45:14

and innovation and this

45:18

idea of a kind of cubist

45:21

storytelling where you're

45:23

only getting a sort of peace and

45:26

you're filling in the rest and

45:28

it's coming from multiple perspectives was

45:31

always, you know, a little bit of a risk

45:34

to put out in the world and I'm delighted by

45:36

the reception of it. How

45:40

was it received when you proposed this as

45:42

a book? You know, you're doing something different and

45:44

playful that nobody has ever done before

45:46

and quite often there can be resistance to that.

45:48

How was it received when you first proposed

45:51

it? You know, my amazing

45:54

agent, when I

45:56

told her I wanted to do this, I said, you know,

45:58

I said, well, what's next? that I think I want

46:00

to write labels about people. And she

46:02

thought, oh, that's just a bad idea.

46:05

And she thought, just seems

46:07

like not the right thing to do. And

46:09

then I said, oh, no, I think I can

46:12

do it. And she said, oh, no, no, you absolutely have

46:14

to do it. But we

46:16

just have to know going in, this

46:19

is going to be tricky. And then I

46:21

did it. And I sent her the

46:23

first 20. And she said, wow,

46:26

OK, I'll get it. She said, but is

46:28

this sustainable? Can you write a whole book about

46:30

this? And I said, well, it's a whole life.

46:33

Of course I can. Like I could. And

46:35

so it was great to have someone who was really

46:38

complicit with me and to

46:41

sort of see that support

46:45

and resistance at the same time. And

46:48

then I remember telling curators that this

46:50

was what I was doing. And

46:52

they all thought, I think they thought

46:54

I was going to really be making fun of them. And

46:57

so they were very resistant. It's much more a

46:59

celebration of that crime. Exactly.

47:01

So once they got the book in their hands and

47:03

they read it, they're

47:06

so into it and really supportive.

47:10

And so it's a funny thing

47:12

to watch there, kind of like, well, that's OK.

47:16

And then to have this like, oh my gosh,

47:18

this is brilliant. This is so much fun. And

47:20

they completely understand it. And

47:23

people are very surprised by how moving

47:25

the book is in a way

47:27

that while it's clever

47:30

as an idea and it's

47:33

got a lot of humor in it, it has

47:36

to deliver on an emotional level. So I

47:38

think people are surprised by how poignant

47:41

some of the labels are when more

47:44

difficult subjects are broached in

47:46

the book and

47:48

how that's possible within the

47:50

constraints of that kind of

47:52

museum speak. Yeah, there are lots of

47:55

things that are very tenderly

47:57

touched on.

47:59

Very.

47:59

And interestingly, some of those labels,

48:02

the really challenging ones where

48:05

Kitty really suffers sometimes

48:08

physically,

48:10

those

48:11

were incredibly easy to write. Because

48:14

we recognise it. We don't

48:16

need everything spelling out. All

48:19

you need is some crumbs.

48:21

Yes, yeah, I think that's right. This is probably

48:23

an instance in which the readers

48:26

are really right

48:28

there with you. You don't actually need, I'm

48:31

using the references and the kind of language

48:33

and voice of those labels. But

48:36

the reader recognises what's going on

48:38

in a way that kind of cuts right

48:41

to the heart. And

48:43

so again, that

48:46

is sort of where we began, this idea

48:48

of a kind of complicit relationship

48:51

between reader, writer

48:53

and writing. And

48:55

that dynamic. I'm really working

48:58

to propel it. And it's that connection,

49:00

isn't it? And I think that's what we're all

49:02

looking for. Well, I mean, as I said to

49:04

you at the beginning, it was an idea that struck me immediately

49:06

when it landed in my inbox. I

49:09

thought, this is perfect. So there

49:11

you go. Encouragement for

49:13

everybody who has an idea that feels a little bit

49:15

off the wall. And also, I think

49:17

all sorts of things to do with

49:20

constraints, picking an idea, habit,

49:22

practice, there's lots for us to take from that.

49:26

One thing that we often finish with is one

49:28

thing that you can share with listeners.

49:31

It could be a book, a podcast, somewhere

49:33

you've visited, a recipe. One

49:35

thing that has happened in your week

49:38

so far or that you've come across recently

49:40

that's inspired you.

49:42

Oh, wow.

49:46

You know, I'll share one

49:48

thing that is a root of driver for me. And

49:51

it inspired me because I shared it with

49:54

someone before and they had just come back to

49:56

me and told me that it's really worked

49:58

for them in their life and it gets better. back to what

50:01

you were just saying about having an idea and pursuing

50:03

it. I had a colleague at the Met

50:06

who had this big sign

50:08

on her wall, and it was

50:11

a quote by Merce Cunningham,

50:14

and it was, the only way to do it

50:17

is to do it. That's

50:20

always my mantra about writing

50:23

in particular. You get an idea

50:25

and it's like, well, how am I going to do that? And

50:28

it does, if you keep that in your head, as

50:31

the only way to do it is to do it, like

50:34

just go. And I had shared

50:36

that with someone, and

50:39

she's just come back to me recently and

50:41

explained, either she's had some success

50:44

in her art and explained that that

50:48

my telling her that years

50:50

ago got her going when she was stuck,

50:55

a sort of post pandemic stuff, and she's just

50:57

having an exhibition coming up, and she

51:00

felt like that was the thing that really

51:04

was a catalyst for her to

51:06

sort of have that idea

51:09

passed from a colleague to me

51:11

and for me to this young woman. And

51:14

that was so inspiring to know

51:16

that the words that drive me, I

51:19

shared and now drive her. And

51:22

so I think that that's the

51:24

best we can do for one another. It is.

51:26

Go make ripples. Just get started. Yeah,

51:29

exactly. The only way to do it is to do

51:31

it. Right. Lovely. So that's

51:34

it, everybody, from us this

51:36

week. The links to the

51:38

book and the details will be in the

51:40

show notes, or you can just be

51:42

able to Google one woman show. You'll be

51:44

able to find it. Christine Coulson find

51:47

all the other books. And I'm

51:49

really interested in seeing what you do next as

51:51

a writer. So I will be following as

51:53

well. I'm sure there'll be there's another project

51:56

in the scene. Has another idea

51:58

already landed? Well,

52:00

you know, I'm not sure. I mean, I'm

52:02

very, I also really believe

52:05

in like allowing things

52:07

to cook. Yes. And distinctly

52:09

not. It's almost contrary to the only way to do

52:12

it is to do it. I

52:14

believe in withholding, having

52:16

an idea and not touching

52:18

it, but visiting it in your mind

52:21

like a room and seeing

52:24

what's there and seeing what's cooking. And

52:27

so I really, I love this part

52:29

before you're doing something, when

52:31

something's just sort of lurking. Is

52:33

that sense of anticipation, isn't it? Just boils

52:36

over into that action. Yeah, exactly. It's

52:39

also, it's a time that I think

52:41

many creatives can get frustrated or

52:43

worried or think, you know, oh, is

52:45

there something wrong with me? Or I'm not feeling at all, what's

52:48

it right now? And I think it's a very, it's

52:50

a tentative balance between, okay, when

52:52

do we just go and make a start so that we can

52:55

find those little sparks again? But

52:57

also, you know, actually enjoying

52:59

that pause and that break and giving ourselves

53:02

a little bit of a grace because something will

53:04

come. Yeah, and trusting that it's

53:06

there. Something's happening. I think

53:08

for creative people, just

53:12

understanding that something's cooking.

53:15

It's there. I just, I think you have to trust that. Right.

53:19

Let's wrap this up. I feel we could talk all day. I'm

53:21

sure you have other things to do. It's been

53:24

an absolute delight. And thank you for listening, everybody.

53:26

We will see you next time. Goodbye. Bye-bye.

53:48

Bye.