2:00

First of all, can we say that

2:02

yesterday morning I was on a Zoom

2:04

call and somebody said, oh, you're

2:07

all happy and glowy. And I was.

2:11

My friend goes,

2:13

what, what, what?

2:17

So I had a little last minute escape

2:19

with my daughter just because she doesn't have to

2:21

go back to school anymore. She's got a training

2:24

coming up and I think I mentioned

2:26

it last time we spoke. I was like, OK,

2:28

I might just hop away. And then I just thought, OK,

2:31

so do it. So I did one of those things that I

2:33

do in film that you think is somehow not possible

2:36

for you, which was find

2:38

a place to go, book it and be on the plane

2:40

less than 36 hours later.

2:41

And it was an absolute

2:44

delight. And I did work

2:46

while I was there, which

2:49

worked. And we had an absolutely

2:51

fantastic time. And yesterday

2:53

morning I came back. I was in buoyant

2:56

before. I cracked through a load of admin.

2:58

I was just settling down to do a recording

3:01

for something that I'm doing. And

3:03

I got I've been away

3:06

to chat to Paul downstairs for

3:08

about 14 minutes. And

3:10

I came back to an email that says

3:13

a new email has been added

3:15

to your

3:15

Facebook address.

3:18

Have you changed your password?

3:21

Reset request has been sent. Please

3:24

enter this code, obviously, which I didn't add. Your

3:28

password has been changed and your email

3:30

has been removed. And it happened within

3:33

two minutes.

3:36

I was back at my desk. I

3:38

clicked on the emails because I've

3:40

got two factor authentication.

3:43

I've got full security on that account and

3:45

I have a meta verified account. And

3:48

I clicked on it and said that this wasn't me.

3:50

And then they send you to your email address.

3:53

And then you can get back in again. And then they

3:55

want another form of idea. And at that point, my

3:57

mobile was still on. So I could get a code

3:59

to my mobile. and add it, there ensued

4:02

a two-hour literal

4:04

typing race between me and the hackers

4:06

of who could get back in again

4:09

quick enough and remove the other person's

4:11

contact details. And

4:15

they won.

4:17

And like it just makes you wonder how the hell

4:20

did they get in first because we always say

4:22

to people, put your authentication

4:25

on and make sure that you've got all that.

4:27

Yeah. And they do not have been able to

4:29

even get in. So they have

4:32

some program they've created that allows

4:34

them to bypass all that stuff. I

4:37

have a complex and unusual password

4:39

that was only changed last month. My

4:41

mobile was here. I haven't

4:44

logged in from any different device. Nothing.

4:48

Nothing.

4:49

Yeah. So, interesting,

4:50

Shenanigan.

4:53

Interesting, Shenanigan.

4:56

Obviously, my Facebook, and this is, you

4:59

know, for those of you who've mentioned, oh, sorry, this

5:01

has happened again. This is different. The again

5:03

was back in July and the beginning

5:06

of August. My Facebook

5:08

account was suspended by

5:10

META because they said I was going against

5:12

community guidelines. They didn't tell me what.

5:15

But that was kind of rechecked after about 24

5:17

or 36 hours in each case and just

5:20

reinstated. That didn't turn into

5:22

me because it was just them stuck in

5:24

my account. This, somebody

5:27

is in my account now,

5:30

which therefore means they have access to

5:32

my groups and

5:35

contacts. So I have just

5:37

been trying to let people know

5:39

through

5:42

Instagram just to take care. Don't click

5:44

on anything that says it's from me. META

5:48

verified at this point have not been very helpful. It has

5:50

to be said. But let's give

5:52

them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we should call

5:54

this part one. And there might be

5:56

a part two. Do we have anything

5:58

useful to say in case we do?

5:59

in terms of security.

6:02

I mean, for goodness

6:04

sake, I have a different part,

6:06

but all of those things I had,

6:08

all of those things I had,

6:10

and it's just

6:15

debilitating.

6:18

Yeah, we were just talking

6:19

about before

6:21

we got on how,

6:23

for me, it just makes me so angry

6:26

that people can take the hard

6:28

work and everything that we've

6:30

done to build a following and

6:33

create a business and

6:36

do good in our own way,

6:38

our own little ways, do something positive

6:41

in the world, all of us, and

6:43

then someone can just come and

6:45

take it away just to be a

6:47

little dick, just to do some little

6:50

picky things. I've been

6:52

toe-ragging my mother in love. You know they're

6:55

only 14. They're not adults,

6:58

most of these people, they're little dicks. And

7:02

I've listened to podcasts where they actually

7:04

find the little dicks and go talk to

7:06

them, and they go, oh yeah,

7:08

I didn't really think of it that way, I didn't really

7:10

think I was hurting anyone.

7:13

Or they are

7:15

actual scammers actually trying

7:17

to hurt people. I messaged

7:20

you on Facebook to say what time are we going to

7:22

do the podcast? Nobody's taken

7:24

advantage by messaging me back and trying

7:27

to get me to click anything or do anything.

7:29

So at the moment they don't seem to be doing

7:31

anything with your account.

7:33

No, and what I have done is I've

7:36

cancelled bank cards and

7:39

done all of that

7:40

kind of stuff.

7:43

So who knows? But

7:45

I mean it leaves me in a quandary

7:47

on a couple of places.

7:51

You know, a Facebook account I can start

7:54

again, a personal one, I can reach out to friends and start that again. I guess

7:56

I've lost the whole batch of people. of

8:00

photos, but I had those photos

8:02

anyway, you know, they're on my camera somewhere. So

8:06

I can get over that. I

8:09

do like being part of Facebook groups.

8:12

It's made me think my own

8:15

Facebook art page, if I'm honest,

8:17

I haven't paid too much attention

8:19

to recently. So there's 10,000 people

8:22

on there. I have my mailing list, I

8:24

can contact people and

8:26

let them know what's happened. The timing

8:29

of when to do that is interesting

8:31

to consider. But what

8:33

it's really made me think about is

8:37

a community for my own membership,

8:39

which we did, which I did visit earlier

8:41

in the summer and bringing that to another

8:43

platform.

8:46

But again, that's just a decision that needs to be taken.

8:48

What it's made me think more about is our

8:51

whole relationship again

8:53

with social media, because I

8:55

was thinking at 5am this morning, do

9:00

I have, it's a little bit like,

9:02

you know, when you move into a new house, and

9:05

it's new, and it's exciting,

9:07

and you're making changes, and you're redecorating,

9:10

and you're pulling up the old lino, and you're putting

9:12

the elbow grease, and you're scrubbing it, and you're making

9:15

it yours. That part of it is fun.

9:17

When it all starts falling to pieces, and you have

9:19

to do it again, talking

9:22

about my house now, hello, not

9:24

so much fun. Honestly, at this

9:26

point, just expensive, not so much

9:29

fun. It's a little bit like

9:31

that, like building something new is

9:34

a challenge, like building

9:36

a following, creating something that's

9:39

fun and exciting. Starting again

9:41

with it the way it is now, do I

9:44

want to do that? It honestly

9:46

made me think, do I just shut down

9:48

the whole of everything online? Because

9:51

as you and I were saying in our discussion, we

9:54

think this is only going to

9:56

get more complex and

9:58

worse and

9:59

How do we protect ourselves? Yes.

10:03

And, you know... Without panicking

10:05

people, this is the thing. Do

10:08

we discuss this with you guys?

10:13

We don't want to panic you.

10:16

It is the reality, I think, of our future

10:18

that we all have to get savvier and

10:20

savvier and savvier as AI

10:23

comes in. I mean, I've heard of, I don't

10:25

know anyone who's experienced this personally, but

10:28

I know AI can replicate people's voices.

10:31

So you can get a phone call from Amy saying,

10:34

Help, Mum, I need some money. Send

10:36

me some money now. And it can sound like

10:38

Amy and you can send the money or do the thing

10:41

or whatever. And then it turns out it's not Amy,

10:43

it's just someone who's taken her voice and

10:45

faked it. And that's going

10:47

to become more and more common. And

10:50

banks are more and more warning

10:52

us. I mean, my thing I've told you about,

10:54

and I won't go into the details because it's boring,

10:57

but I was in the

10:59

process of looking at purchasing a commercial

11:01

property. And in that transaction,

11:04

my solicitor asked me to transfer

11:06

some money. And I did because

11:09

it came from my solicitor in an email

11:12

chain that we had been going for

11:14

a month. And I transferred

11:16

money and then only found out

11:19

two weeks ago, maybe 10 days ago, that

11:21

when I came because I'm not buying that building

11:24

now and came to ask for the money back, I got

11:26

a panicked phone call from him because

11:28

he'd realized his systems had all been hacked

11:31

and that presumably I am not

11:33

the only person who got an email asking for

11:35

money because all he's a conveyance

11:37

solicitor so there will have been other people that

11:40

he's working with. And

11:42

that's ongoing for me now to recover

11:45

that. But I've known

11:47

of people who got involved, who've been scammed

11:50

in bank scams. My best friend's dad,

11:52

who's passed away now, but he

11:54

lost £70,000, which was a huge

11:57

amount of money for him.

11:59

in and

12:01

he was slightly beginning stages

12:03

of Alzheimer's and somebody rang him

12:05

up and told him to transfer money and not to

12:07

tell his family and he did

12:10

and he was a former bank

12:11

manager.

12:14

And

12:15

so I've even seen that and I still

12:17

did the thing in a hurry, not

12:19

like, oh yeah, that's my solicitor,

12:22

that's fine, not paying attention,

12:24

I won't make that mistake again

12:27

but you didn't even make a mistake. But

12:30

then the point is I think the hackers,

12:33

the scammers are going to get more and more sophisticated.

12:37

When I go on my Instagram now, the

12:39

combination of attempted scams,

12:42

attempted hacks because I've

12:45

had security

12:45

codes come through when I know I'm

12:47

not trying to log into my accounts as someone is,

12:50

trolls, there's

12:53

very few trolls but there are trolls. I've got

12:55

a couple of people who like to plague

12:57

me by sending me negative comments and

12:59

telling me how much they don't like me on a regular

13:01

basis. It's like

13:04

why am I even bothering? But then

13:07

there's so much positive stuff on there

13:09

and the positive far

13:12

outweighs all the negative.

13:14

It does, the positive does.

13:16

And this is the thing,

13:22

you can't let them win.

13:26

So you can't let the positive be

13:28

taken away.

13:30

And

13:34

how do we move forward? There's

13:37

a contact of mine on

13:39

Facebook and it is fascinating

13:42

but he was celebrating an AI

13:45

thing the other day on Facebook

13:47

so he reads something in English.

13:49

It

13:51

will create new videos

13:54

of him speaking in French,

13:56

Italian, Spanish, German,

13:59

Japanese. And it will modify

14:01

the video of his lips

14:04

moving. And somebody else even

14:06

said, I'm a French speaker and I watched

14:08

this with the sound off and I could

14:11

tell what you were saying from

14:13

lip reading.

14:15

Now,

14:17

it's fascinating. It's clever.

14:20

It's horrendously

14:23

dangerous when we put it into

14:25

the context of this kind of conversation.

14:29

Because even now, you know, the emails

14:32

I'm getting from Master Security, do you know what?

14:34

They're not the best English. No,

14:36

I've checked them. I've checked the email

14:39

and it's a proper verified sending thing.

14:42

It's not proper English. It doesn't read like

14:44

a proper email. And

14:47

what do they want me to click a link which I haven't clicked

14:49

yet?

14:50

Yes.

14:50

You know.

14:54

So what does it do? Does it

14:56

cause us to just simply withdraw

14:58

and retreat back into our shell? Because

15:03

I have a couple of friends who've never

15:05

gone online, never been involved

15:08

with online, have nothing to do with it. Their

15:10

business doesn't depend on it. They have ones,

15:13

one's my friend who's the teacher because he stayed away

15:15

for reasons that are obvious as a teacher.

15:17

Just don't get involved. One's

15:19

a person whose business does not involve on

15:21

the Internet. And

15:23

they're very happy not

15:24

being involved with social media. They

15:27

don't have one of

15:29

them was saying to me recently, it seems

15:31

like if you're on social media, you

15:33

just constantly compare in your life with other people

15:36

that seem better than yours. So

15:37

why would I want to do that? True.

15:39

And

15:40

my friend John, as he's doing

15:42

his writing, he's had to go on Instagram to

15:44

start promoting himself and doing the

15:47

whole thing. Enjoying that

15:49

side of it. And he never was involved

15:51

before. So we

15:54

couldn't be where we're

15:56

businesses without it. So and

15:58

that's the problem is that even if. you go other

16:00

route, say I go right, I'm off social media,

16:03

I'm going to spend next year just writing this book.

16:05

Any kind of publication through a publisher,

16:08

they want to know your social media following.

16:12

Yep. You know, it is

16:14

inherently part of, at

16:16

least for your first

16:17

book, if you had a successful

16:19

book, you might be like, they might be less concerned.

16:22

No,

16:23

this person I know, he's on his fourth

16:25

book, and they still want to know what his social media

16:28

marketing strategy is going to be for it.

16:30

Yeah.

16:31

Yeah. So you want to say,

16:34

right, I

16:37

am focusing on my art and

16:39

I am going the art world route

16:42

and I am going to try and get

16:45

Charles Salche to notice me and

16:47

buy all my paintings in one go. I think

16:50

that's the solution. Because

16:52

he's

16:52

probably not really focused on social

16:54

media or

16:58

we give up.

16:59

This

17:02

doesn't seem an option. I mean, there

17:04

are ways, there's podcasting,

17:07

for example. Podcasting

17:09

cannot be hacked and is safe and is a way

17:11

of reaching people. Yeah.

17:13

But one of the benefits of the

17:15

podcast is that people then go look for you on

17:18

social media, sign up for your newsletter

17:20

or whatever, but you could just podcast and say

17:22

newsletter, newsletter, newsletter.

17:24

You could sub-stack, but then

17:26

that would be subject to hacking if it

17:28

ever became big. Yeah.

17:30

And it's interesting. I was looking at sub-stack

17:32

again before all of this,

17:34

actually. And

17:38

I still feel on sub-stack that you're

17:40

building content on somebody else's platform.

17:45

I'm in receipt of

17:47

some sub-stack things and I don't

17:49

like it. It feels annoying.

17:52

Yeah. And

17:56

I can't work out how to turn off alerts

17:58

for certain things on my phone. so like

18:00

my phone pings with a noise I haven't quite

18:03

got used to ignoring yet. And

18:06

it doesn't, we

18:09

use social media like

18:11

for me, Instagram and Facebook

18:14

groups, oh okay, I'm having my co-op, I'll check

18:16

in with that and see what's going on. That

18:18

is in with, it's within our

18:20

control, whereas emails,

18:23

emails is in the broadcast category.

18:28

It doesn't have that two-way, it doesn't have

18:30

that two-way community element, that's what

18:32

I think I have to be looking for. Yeah,

18:36

as soon as you have a two-way

18:38

community element online,

18:41

it's subject to, because I was thinking

18:43

we can focus on Pinterest, but Pinterest

18:45

is subject to hacking just as much as anything else.

18:48

So anything we do online,

18:51

we're always going to be subject to this

18:54

and we, until now I've

18:56

always thought as long as I'm careful and

18:58

as long as I have two-way

19:01

authentication and I don't

19:03

click any links, I don't know where they come from

19:05

and I don't, then I'll be fine. And until

19:07

now that has been the case, but now that's seen

19:10

this happen to you, then that

19:12

isn't always the case because your

19:14

information could have been part of a data

19:16

breach on an entirely different, or

19:19

on Facebook, it could be part of a Facebook

19:21

data breach

19:22

and that's it. And that would be much more

19:25

likely if the password had

19:27

been one that I'd had for a long time,

19:29

but I mean it has to be that, how

19:31

could it be anything else if you didn't click

19:34

anything? Because they have to have had your original

19:36

password to get,

19:39

so they could have just had it, they could have hacked

19:41

into Facebook yesterday, got a bunch

19:43

of passwords, but in any way,

19:45

so it's totally something you couldn't

19:48

defend against. So

19:50

that means, yeah,

19:52

we're left in a situation of do we live with

19:54

it? Do you just have a smaller,

19:57

more loyal community that comes to you through

19:59

something like? podcasting which is as you

20:01

say one way because the

20:03

only way people can feed back to you is

20:06

through social media messages or it

20:09

can be emails but most people won't sit and

20:11

write an email. No.

20:16

Or do you build a, you're in

20:18

London, do you build an

20:21

in-person network going

20:23

old school? Yep. Like

20:25

the old business networking groups,

20:27

do you remember where you'd get like 15

20:30

businesses would come together and they'd all join

20:32

former networking group. Do you do something

20:35

like that? Do you start, do

20:37

you pioneer a new

20:40

style, old school

20:43

artist networking?

20:46

And I think if it was just about

20:48

the art, my art, that

20:50

is a route forward. What

20:53

feels difficult for me is this

20:55

idea of,

20:59

I don't want to say pulling the plug because

21:02

I won't be doing that

21:06

but the community space that

21:08

we have built and what that gives to other people

21:11

all across the world.

21:15

That can't stop. No.

21:18

It's not fair that just because

21:21

this has happened that that is taken away

21:23

from everybody else. No.

21:27

And it is very hard to,

21:30

I'm not going to say impossible because nothing's

21:32

impossible but it is hard to build

21:35

a network or a

21:37

group like that outside of Facebook

21:39

at the moment. I was saying to you that

21:41

I downloaded a little course that

21:43

you just work on on your own and

21:46

as part of the instructions it said join a

21:48

Facebook group or come and join us on

21:50

the something forum,

21:53

the special dedicated forum. And

21:56

I was like I don't know what that is, click the Facebook

21:58

group. That's easy. I click the group. I asked

22:00

to join and now I'm

22:02

able to see the work of other people who are doing the

22:04

course which is what I want. That's

22:06

the interesting part.

22:08

So it's very hard to find a

22:10

way to create that somewhere else. With your

22:12

group

22:14

where people are paying, where people are paying, it's

22:20

a bit different, but I still suspect

22:22

you get far less engagement

22:25

because it's very easy for

22:27

me during a working day. As I

22:30

said, checking on Facebook. I'll be with a couple

22:35

of teams. I'll just have a quick read

22:37

through. Whereas

22:37

if I have to log in, remember my

22:40

password or guard, I can't remember that, it's on

22:42

a different computer that

22:43

I logged in last time. You wouldn't have to do

22:45

that. It would just be another app that just sat

22:47

next to your Facebook app and once you were in, you'd

22:49

just click that instead of going into a Facebook

22:51

group. It would be on your

22:53

phone. I don't do anything on

22:55

my phone. I do it on my computer.

22:58

I still don't use my phone for much. Now

23:00

I'm quite unusual for that.

23:04

I sit here doing my accounts

23:06

or whatever, doing things. Whenever I'm doing something

23:08

boring on the computer, I'm like, oh, I'll just have a

23:10

quick look on Facebook. The only thing I

23:13

do on my phone actually is Instagram because that's

23:15

the phone. It's always the phone thing.

23:18

But I am unusual and weird in that. I know

23:20

because most people do things on a phone

23:22

or iPad now.

23:24

The bigger picture thing about it is,

23:26

if this continues

23:29

like this, because I've had so many

23:32

either DMs on Instagram

23:34

or WhatsApp messages from people who

23:36

I'm in contact with, who know so many people that

23:38

this has happened to, and it seems to be happening

23:41

a lot at the moment.

23:45

We're talking about Facebook being essential.

23:47

I've already had messages from people saying,

23:49

I'm in your membership. I'm not in

23:51

the Facebook group. If you move, that would be great for me.

23:57

But we're talking about Facebook being essential.

24:00

Are they in danger of imploding themselves

24:02

if they don't get a handle on this? Like

24:06

Adam Massari on Instagram yesterday,

24:08

something about AI animation

24:11

stickers. The comments

24:14

under that post that he did about

24:16

people, one of them with Bing Mind

24:18

saying, can you stop fussing with stuff like this

24:21

and sort out account impersonations.

24:24

There's somebody else I know this week

24:26

who's had duplicate accounts

24:29

set up that look identical for hers

24:32

and then sharing people, sharing dodgy

24:34

links on her page.

24:37

And why

24:38

are they not taking care

24:40

of that? It's their own

24:44

commercial intellectual property, isn't

24:46

it? Why are they not being

24:48

more proactive? Why are they not

24:50

responding better when these

24:52

things happen? Why are they not putting more controls

24:55

in place to bring security?

24:58

I've done everything they told me to. Yeah.

25:01

And, you

25:03

know, maybe it is all just gonna...

25:06

Why don't they have an entire building

25:08

full of 14 year old hackers

25:11

who can help when this happens?

25:14

Like I was thinking the solution, I know somebody

25:16

this happened to

25:17

solved it by paying a hacker

25:20

to get her account back. And

25:24

if this happened to me, that's the first thing I'd

25:26

want is a friendly hacker. So I'm

25:28

thinking we need to go find friendly

25:30

hackers. Really?

25:32

Yeah, because how else are you gonna

25:35

fight fire with fire, I

25:37

think, but you need to find one that's

25:39

recommended. Just

25:40

like any tradesperson, like who's

25:42

recommended. I mean, they can hack you

25:44

anytime.

25:46

I'm in contact with somebody who helps somebody

25:49

else on a hacked account. But

25:51

so far even he says,

25:54

we've had problems with this because we don't

25:56

understand how they get in when you've got...

26:00

But he said, you're right, it's just a question we

26:02

need to be faster than them.

26:04

Yeah.

26:06

So it's like, why doesn't Facebook

26:08

have an absolute army? Because

26:10

they'd be scared of how to manage it. No, we

26:13

can't control them and whatever. But they're out there

26:15

anyway, so you might as well have the ones on your side.

26:19

So I don't know what the answer is

26:21

other than, I would say,

26:23

in my case, my situation was be

26:26

more vigilant. But my situation

26:28

was not

26:31

something, it wasn't something

26:33

I couldn't have guarded against if I

26:35

was really, really careful. Yours.

26:40

The be more vigilant is the same

26:42

as along the lines of, I mean, they're

26:44

still sending them, aren't they? My wife

26:47

has been looking at your artworks. Oh, God.

26:50

That still comes. And

26:53

they're open for commission.

26:56

What is that all about? Excuse

26:58

me, are your paintings for sale? Oh, piss

27:00

off. Really? I actually

27:02

swear and write back to people. I take the

27:05

time out of my day to write off off

27:07

because I just think you

27:09

scumbag, you little scumbag, or

27:11

you think scumbag, or you old scumbag.

27:14

Like you're taking

27:15

your creative energies and using

27:17

them.

27:18

And this is the thing. This is

27:20

the thing. It's the time. It's the

27:22

time to go through Instagram

27:25

and remove users and block and delete

27:27

accounts that have haven't even contacted

27:29

me yet. They're just dodgy and they're following me. And

27:33

I do that every day. Every

27:35

day. Okay, it doesn't take that

27:37

long, but it's a little micro. Yeah.

27:42

You

27:45

know, that interferes all I wanted to do,

27:47

I was like, I'll crack on with my admin. I'll get

27:49

this done. And then, you know, I'm

27:51

thinking about the next paintings. I want to get going

27:53

to go with these ones for Manchester Art Fair. I

27:56

was on such a roll.

27:58

Honestly, I was on such a roll. a role and now

28:01

I can't just drop this. I've

28:04

got to get this at

28:06

least resolved to a certain extent and now

28:08

possibly have to investigate setting

28:10

up an entire new community

28:13

platform. More than in my plans next

28:15

week if I'm completely honest.

28:17

I suppose I'm

28:19

going to do the flip side now. So

28:22

both of our businesses

28:25

could not possibly have

28:26

grown or

28:28

existed or done what we've done without

28:30

social media. So

28:33

in 1980s when I was coming

28:36

out of school this was

28:38

not even a feasible plan

28:39

to create something like this.

28:42

You would have needed investors and advertising

28:45

money and even then advertising went

28:47

to everybody not just to specific people

28:49

so you'd have to advertise on local

28:51

radio to try and find the odd artist

28:53

listening and it would just be impossible.

28:56

So I

28:57

think we also have to take

28:59

a step back and say in the

29:02

past artists could

29:04

not sell their work unless they found a gatekeeper

29:07

to give them permission to approve

29:09

of them and to take some of their money and all

29:12

of that has changed and we are

29:15

all given a lot more creative opportunities

29:17

because of social media. So

29:20

we tend to when something bad happens

29:22

get focused on oh but that's the negative.

29:25

Even email and what happened to me without

29:27

email marketing and email in general

29:30

what I've done wouldn't be possible

29:32

and I couldn't sell

29:34

my paintings because they sell to my email list

29:36

and all of that. So

29:40

there is a positive side to it. It's

29:42

just that we had a few years of complete

29:45

positive. So we had a few years where

29:47

this came along and we were able to

29:49

use it free. I've

29:51

mentioned this before but I always remember being

29:54

on Twitter in the very early days and

29:56

some marketing

29:57

guy saying what I love about Twitter

29:59

is it's

29:59

nice place and everybody's so

30:02

nice to each other and

30:04

you definitely wouldn't say that in more recent

30:06

years. So you get this honeymoon

30:09

period, everything's great, now

30:11

we're getting the crash from it and

30:14

it will never go back to honeymoon

30:19

but maybe

30:22

the companies will find a way to tackle.

30:25

I mean we're saying why don't they deal with it but

30:27

I imagine I'm sure that even your hacker

30:29

friend doesn't know how they're doing it, maybe

30:31

Facebook is constantly scrambling

30:34

to try and deal with this and

30:37

it's only going to get worse with AI.

30:40

Do we just say this we accept,

30:43

do we just accept which is my word

30:45

of the moment, do we just accept that

30:47

from time to time we might

30:49

lose our accounts so we work

30:51

in a different way where we accept that might

30:54

happen.

30:55

We already have our

30:57

email and our podcast and we

31:00

all think of

31:02

other ways whether that's exhibiting

31:04

in person like you're doing art fairs and

31:06

things and we just

31:08

be aware that this

31:11

and we almost see social media as a bonus,

31:13

this is the extra bit we get to do because

31:15

if you moved your community somewhere else

31:17

then social media for you would just

31:20

be the marketing side.

31:23

Do you just see it as a, I mean sorry

31:25

I was going to... I don't even really see it as marketing

31:28

in that sense, it's just,

31:31

I mean for me so much of it is the social.

31:34

Yeah. Social. Yeah I see it as marketing

31:37

so I because I don't like I'm not social so

31:39

I was going to say

31:41

one other way I could see doing

31:43

this in the future is to say I'm

31:46

not bothering with Instagram or Facebook,

31:48

I'm not doing any of that but I am

31:50

paying for

31:51

paid advertising and

31:53

so I've just had a really interesting exercise

31:56

on my course where I've just had the results

31:58

back from the Facebook campaign.

31:59

and the marketing campaigns. And

32:03

I can see exactly, we've honed

32:05

it down to see exactly who signed up as

32:07

the result of a Facebook ad at some

32:09

point in the last six months seeing an ad and

32:11

coming into my world. And

32:14

it was, of my course

32:16

sales, it was almost half

32:20

came from someone who came into my

32:22

world through a Facebook ad. The

32:24

conversion rate on those people was

32:27

half what my conversion rate was of

32:29

people who were organically

32:31

already following me from some other podcast,

32:33

from the YouTube,

32:35

from something else. So

32:38

I get a much higher conversion rate. I

32:40

get 6% conversion rate on those people

32:43

and I get 3% on strangers. But

32:46

still, nearly

32:49

half the sales came from Facebook

32:51

ads. So,

32:52

and it was cost effective, very

32:55

cost effective, extremely.

32:57

So there is a world in which I

32:59

could say, well, all right, no more

33:02

personal Instagram and Facebook. I'll

33:04

just pay and that way

33:06

I can, if

33:09

my account gets hacked, I can set up another account

33:11

and another account and I could just do that under

33:14

different names forever and ever, under

33:16

different profiles. But

33:20

I don't, it didn't sound exciting. I

33:22

don't feel, but if I needed it for

33:24

business purposes or to market an exhibition

33:27

or something, you could do that and

33:30

do the podcast and do, and

33:33

have more time where you're not constantly

33:35

thinking about, because I know for

33:37

you it's social, but for a lot of people listening,

33:40

they are only doing it so people see their

33:42

paintings.

33:43

Yeah, well it's a mix of that. It's a mix

33:46

of that and social. I suppose what I mean

33:48

is that I don't have that

33:51

kind of systematic strategy

33:53

and a paid strategy like you have.

33:58

I could.

33:59

I could and then it comes back to do I want

34:02

to be paying them to do

34:03

anything.

34:06

But say you wanted to

34:08

keep your community

34:11

going, you've got it on a separate platform now,

34:13

you want to keep bringing new people in because people

34:16

leave, we always lose members so

34:18

you need to bring new people in. Say

34:20

you just said, alright I'm not doing Facebook

34:22

or Instagram because

34:23

I'm tired of the whole shebang, I'm

34:25

doing my podcast or I'm doing whatever

34:28

else and I'm

34:30

going to run ads when I want to,

34:32

I'll do a campaign.

34:34

It would be just the same as you chatting

34:36

on Instagram but you just pay in to promote it

34:39

and then you turn them off when you're done with

34:41

your promotion, you don't worry about it for another

34:44

six months, then you come on and do it again.

34:46

I mean, it's fine until you account

34:49

gets hacked. Yeah and then you have

34:51

to set up

34:52

Alice Sheridan, one

34:54

instead of Alice Sheridan, and you start it

34:56

again.

34:58

You see that sounds exhausting.

35:01

Yeah,

35:02

well if you were to do it yourself, I

35:04

would definitely, if someone else do

35:07

that side of it for me, is something

35:09

I've been thinking about just because I think this

35:11

is exhausting for a lot

35:14

in the long term to think about, hoping

35:17

with this kind of risk, like it's taken me

35:19

a long long time to get a following on Instagram.

35:22

If that was suddenly hacked and it went away,

35:24

nightmare,

35:26

that's years worth

35:27

of work done. Whereas

35:30

I could just

35:31

run ads that could

35:33

be very personal, enjoyable and educational,

35:35

they don't have to be creepy ads but

35:38

I wouldn't have to be worrying

35:41

about that side of things, someone else could worry about

35:43

that and I would just let them have

35:45

my account and do whatever they were doing.

35:49

Yeah, I'm just not sure

35:51

energetically I want to lean in that direction

35:54

at all anymore really. I

35:56

mean, I might change my mind again but...

35:59

Yeah. You

36:01

know, there is

36:05

no doubt, it's a

36:08

pain in the... I

36:10

mean, there are other things for the membership

36:13

and this... Oh, there's lots of other

36:15

things for the membership. I'm

36:18

not worried about that. In the long term, it

36:26

could even work out better. As you say,

36:28

I think there will be some kind

36:30

of conflict because Facebook

36:33

does make it so easy.

36:35

But one of the things when I came

36:38

back from holiday, as we always do, is think,

36:40

you know, simplify. You know,

36:43

maybe

36:43

this is it. This is a big old

36:46

bang on the head for simplifying

36:50

and just taking care of where

36:52

you do put your energy.

36:56

I did say to you, it feels like to me,

36:59

you've had this... This year,

37:01

this really big change where you've put a

37:03

lot of effort and energy into

37:06

having fun, like

37:07

doing things that you enjoy

37:09

and

37:11

focusing

37:13

where you really feel best. And

37:16

I've seen watching you, the difference

37:18

in you from that focus. And

37:20

the only times this year that I've seen

37:23

you stressed or tense or unhappy

37:25

have related to

37:27

social media and or technology.

37:30

Like those are the only times when someone's come

37:32

in and taken away, Facebook's

37:34

banned you or this thing's happened or...

37:37

And then you go,

37:40

like we all would, tight and tense

37:42

and stressed again. And it feels like almost

37:44

like the universe is going, Alice, there's

37:47

this over here where you feel really good and there's

37:49

this over here where you don't feel good. Can

37:52

we guide you over here a bit so

37:54

you feel more like this more

37:56

often? And I can see

37:58

a way where you... would

38:01

be happy on a different platform

38:03

with the membership and where

38:05

you could promote the membership in

38:08

ways that, okay, you don't feel good about

38:10

paid advertising, but

38:13

an organised referral programme where

38:15

current members can refer people and

38:17

get a benefit for that or affiliate

38:20

marketing where you just pick a few people you like

38:23

and they help you promote your

38:25

thing to other people because

38:27

there are ways, and the podcast, and

38:30

there are ways to reach people where you wouldn't

38:32

have to be on that

38:34

Facebook treadmill if you didn't want to be,

38:36

and maybe you'd be just, maybe

38:39

when she got rid of it, it would just be like, phew,

38:41

and like you said,

38:43

there'd be loads of members because I get this on

38:45

my course and in the membership of people

38:47

saying, I wish it wasn't in Facebook

38:49

because I don't belong to

38:51

Facebook and I can't go in the

38:53

group.

38:54

Yeah,

38:56

yeah.

38:57

Maybe it is just a big push.

39:00

Maybe it's our limiting belief that

39:03

Facebook groups are the only way to have

39:05

a group. We've told each other

39:07

that for years, but maybe we're not right about

39:09

that.

39:11

Well, there's certainly different views on it.

39:15

I'm going on my

39:17

experiences so far as a

39:20

user and also what I have seen

39:22

of other people, and

39:24

it is also true to say that there are,

39:26

as you say, lots of people who prefer

39:29

communities in other spaces. So it's

39:31

not true to say that Facebook is

39:34

the only way of doing it. As

39:36

with everything, there's pros

39:39

and cons, and this is

39:41

for sure a con. If

39:43

you say to me, how would

39:45

your life look if you

39:47

didn't have social media?

39:52

Would it be

39:54

richer? I would

39:56

say it would be a lot quieter and calmer.

40:01

It would be more insular.

40:07

I don't know if it would be richer without it.

40:10

I like it. Damn it.

40:15

You always read those articles by people

40:17

who say I went a year without Twitter

40:20

or whatever it was they were using. And then

40:22

they always do say that they feel

40:24

a lot happier.

40:27

But often at the end of the article they

40:29

go back to

40:30

using it again.

40:34

Well,

40:35

maybe this was just a part one.

40:40

And we'll come back with a part two.

40:43

No, no massive advice

40:46

other than, you know, do everything

40:48

that you can at the moment with your

40:50

accounts. You know, we

40:52

all know that those dodgy emails are the

40:54

dodgy emails that I would say this one

40:57

was, you know, sort

40:59

of not a dodgy email for a start. Nothing

41:02

I clicked, nothing I did. Kind

41:04

of unstoppable. And

41:07

ask the trolls, just don't bother. You

41:09

know, what a waste of your life. Don't be mean

41:11

and bitter and twisted. Go and do something nice.

41:14

Daisy, look at the sky. Go for a swim

41:16

instead. With trolls,

41:19

I always think if you've

41:20

got a troll or trolls,

41:23

just imagine how unhappy

41:26

you would have to be to go

41:28

around making negative comments about another

41:31

person.

41:32

Like I see things all the time

41:34

I don't like. I listen to podcasts

41:36

all the time by people who irritate me. I

41:39

wouldn't even dream of leaving a comment

41:42

for them to tell them or writing them

41:44

an email or a DM. I

41:46

would just leave them be.

41:48

And I just defined it quite,

41:51

it's almost like that person

41:53

is putting a big red flag

41:54

up saying, I'm miserable and

41:57

now I want you to be miserable too. And

42:00

it doesn't work, but I see

42:03

on my students, with my students,

42:05

so often their trolls are family

42:07

members or friends who

42:10

become trolls when they see the artwork they're

42:12

doing on a course where they're trying to

42:14

stretch themselves.

42:16

And they get so hurt

42:19

by these negative comments when really,

42:22

would you do that? No you would never would.

42:25

So don't sweat it. Just

42:27

feel sorry for them.

42:29

Ask them if they're okay maybe. Are

42:31

you feeling alright because you seem really unhappy?

42:34

And then just leave it be.

42:36

Yeah we didn't really... This is what it comes down

42:38

to, isn't it? Ultimately, like nobody is perfect

42:41

all of the

42:41

time, right? But

42:43

are you the kind of person who's trying to do good

42:46

or are you the kind of person that's putting your

42:48

energy and effort into

42:50

bringing things and people down? And

42:53

if you're the latter, like,

42:57

you know, maybe those people are

42:59

in a desperate situation. I don't

43:01

know. I don't know yet what they've got to get

43:03

out of it. I've done everything I can

43:06

to protect myself and hopefully the people

43:08

that I'm in contact with. But

43:12

there is no doubt that this is something

43:14

that I think might become more prevalent.

43:18

And we need to... I don't want...

43:21

This is what it comes down to. I don't want to live

43:23

my whole life being on

43:25

guard. Like, we

43:28

have got... We should have got out of that

43:30

stage of human development,

43:33

certainly in this country where we

43:35

are. We are not under threat

43:37

all the time. We have

43:40

things that keep us safe.

43:43

And yet

43:45

when you have to go through your every

43:47

day feeling like you're on guard

43:49

against things like this, this is not good

43:51

for us.

43:53

It's not how I want to live my life.

43:57

Now, I can't live in fairyland all the time.

44:01

But when I look on this year,

44:03

there have been a lot of

44:06

battles this year, a

44:09

lot of which

44:11

are to do with

44:13

completely unnecessary,

44:16

computer says no kind of

44:20

systematic organisation.

44:23

And that does want

44:26

to make me sometimes

44:29

go and live on a farm and grow potatoes.

44:33

I think one

44:36

thing if we don't want to go quite that

44:38

far,

44:40

I'm not that far from that, but if we

44:42

don't want to go quite that far, we

44:45

could. What I do find helpful,

44:48

and I have really worked on, and I got this

44:50

from Gary Vaynerchuk, and I really

44:52

stick to it, is to try

44:53

and surround myself with as much

44:56

positivity as possible. So

44:58

I don't read the news in the morning with my

45:00

breakfast anymore because it just makes me unhappy.

45:04

My podcast feed is filled with

45:06

positive things that make me feel

45:09

good. And it's not like toxic

45:11

positivity. I'm not trying to, I don't

45:13

mean that kind of positive things, but just

45:15

things that make me feel good and

45:18

positive and upbeat and optimistic about

45:20

the world instead of make me feel positive. I feel

45:22

depressed and down. My best friend keeps saying,

45:25

oh, you should listen to his podcast about British politics.

45:27

I'm like, no, thank you. I

45:29

just really don't want to. Makes

45:32

me feel tense and tight. And

45:35

same for people around us. If someone's

45:38

always constantly negative, you

45:40

maybe can't get rid of them. It might be your mum

45:42

or whatever, but you can tune it

45:45

down a little bit, spend a bit less time and

45:47

try and surround yourself a bit with more positive.

45:49

Because the more we get upset

45:52

about these little dicks

45:55

stealing our accounts or whatever it is they're doing,

45:57

the more we're letting that

45:59

spoil our lives.

47:47

Okay.

48:00

So you're going to get a week off for that. Good.

48:03

So let's say goodbye to everybody and I

48:05

will let you know about it now and we

48:07

will see you next week. Bye. Bye.

48:10

Bye. Okay,

48:18

turn the button. I'll hit I'm recording.

48:22

Hang on. How are we

48:24

going to start today then?

48:26

Are we humorous and generous today? Okay.

48:59

Okay. And here is

49:01

the update. This is unedited

49:05

going out at the last minute, but I just wanted to

49:07

let you know what's happened and what

49:09

has actually happened is this

49:11

has been resolved. My account is

49:13

back. I have access again.

49:16

Nothing untoward has happened in

49:18

any of my groups or any of my messages.

49:21

Now, I wish I had a clear

49:23

solution for you. I wish I had

49:26

a step by step of how to retrieve

49:28

your Facebook account when this happens

49:30

to you. And what I'm going to try to

49:32

do is plate everything that happened and

49:35

actually put it together in a form where I

49:37

can share with you. But the

49:39

reality is I'm not actually sure

49:42

how it fully got resolved. I want

49:45

to believe that my emails were read and

49:47

responded to. I want to

49:49

believe that it was more

49:52

perhaps than just the email

49:54

where Facebook messaged me and said, Hey,

49:56

we noticed there has been unusual activity

49:59

on your app. account but guess what we've

50:01

reviewed it and it's all fine so you can carry

50:03

on spending money with us. Yeah,

50:07

dry sense of humor there. I

50:09

want to believe that it would have just got sorted

50:11

out on its own. The reality is

50:13

an email came in

50:16

with a different kind of

50:18

confirmation code I could use

50:20

and I was back in and the hackers

50:22

emails had been removed and

50:25

I could re-add my emails,

50:27

my contact details, sign in from

50:29

different devices and that was a whole load

50:32

of kind of confirmation codes to

50:34

get re-accessed. Even having

50:37

done that the hackers email address

50:39

was still in control of my

50:41

ad account which I didn't use that much because I didn't

50:43

use Facebook ads really and I needed

50:46

to go in and double check that.

50:48

So this is not just

50:50

about Facebook fixing

50:53

although I

50:54

do recommend a couple of things which

50:57

I will just give you pointers to at the end

50:59

but what I really wanted to say was this is about

51:02

how the whole situation felt and

51:04

the majority of the episodes that you've just listened

51:07

to we recorded when it was very

51:09

fresh it was very new I had been

51:12

in that kind of stress state

51:14

of real elevated anxiety,

51:18

shock,

51:19

confusion,

51:22

lack of control, how has this

51:24

happened, what the heck

51:26

do I do about it and I think

51:28

that's really important to actually

51:30

share that nothing is when

51:33

these things happen it is shocking and it

51:36

is destabilizing and that's really

51:38

how it felt when I recorded this episode

51:41

and what I actually did the following

51:43

day was decide

51:45

to go ahead and have a lovely

51:48

day out with my friends that

51:50

we'd pre-planned and it was a beautiful

51:53

sunny day walking across

51:55

the bridge across the Thames the sun was shining

51:57

I couldn't believe it was the end of September

51:59

It was gorgeous. And this

52:02

is a good friend of mine. We've known each

52:03

other for about 20 years, but she no longer lives

52:05

nearby. So we see each other infrequently.

52:08

And we had a lot to catch up on. We

52:10

had a lot of belly laughs. We

52:13

had a lot of what has

52:15

life thrown at us this year. We

52:17

had a lot of funny stories

52:19

about children. And

52:22

we just had really a fantastic

52:25

day. And at some point in that

52:27

walk along the South Bank, and those of you who

52:29

haven't been to London, there's a lovely area

52:31

along the South Bank of the River Thames.

52:34

And it has an art gallery

52:36

and lots of concert

52:39

halls. And the globe

52:41

is along there. And it's a really lovely stretch

52:44

of the river with restaurants and things

52:47

out and about. We were walking along there trying to

52:49

find something to eat. And

52:53

we passed by

52:54

two poets

52:56

who had set up, Poet for Hire

52:58

with their typewriters sitting out, typing

53:01

poems,

53:03

pay what you want at the end. And we

53:05

walked past them and said, oh, that would be fun. And

53:07

I said, I should give them a poem about

53:09

Facebook hacking. And we turned around. And

53:13

that's exactly what we did. And it felt

53:15

like a real

53:16

shift back into,

53:19

how can we find a silver lining here? How

53:21

can we actually turn this into something positive?

53:24

And if you want to read that poem, you

53:26

can go to my Instagram account, which

53:28

is at Alice Sheridan Studio.

53:31

And you'll see that on a very recent reel, you

53:33

can see the guy typing. And then actually

53:36

it's on a post, not a reel, because I wanted to

53:38

make it so that you could zoom in on

53:40

the post and read the poem. So

53:43

go to my Instagram account and have a look if you

53:45

want to see what he wrote. And he just sat and wrote

53:47

it off the bat, just like no thinking,

53:49

just sat and wrote it. And there was something

53:52

in that instinctive response,

53:55

how creation comes into play,

53:58

how it can help us see things differently. And

54:01

it was a lovely thing to do and change.

54:03

And then later in the day, I bought a piece of artwork

54:05

from an artist. There

54:09

was an art fair going along at the

54:11

same time. And it was just a little message

54:14

to self, really. So the point

54:16

of sharing this with you is I had already

54:18

decided to see this differently. I

54:21

could have stayed stuck in

54:23

that point of frustration, lack

54:25

of control, upset, anger,

54:29

all of those things about Facebook. And

54:32

even by the next day, I'd already

54:34

moved on to where are

54:36

the silver linings here? Where is the opportunity?

54:39

How can I do something differently? And

54:43

part of that is

54:46

I am looking at other opportunities

54:48

for groups, which I'm

54:51

quite excited about, which

54:53

might very well turn into something

54:55

a whole lot better than the place where I was.

54:58

And how often do we have that in life when something

55:00

happens and it's a disappointment? And

55:02

then the next thing that happens to the result ends

55:05

up being something better. And

55:08

it takes a little bit of energy

55:10

and conscious effort to shift out of that

55:12

state when you're in the stuck, frustrated

55:14

state. And

55:17

when my Facebook account came back, was

55:20

I pleased? Yes, because I have access

55:22

to my photos. Yes, because

55:24

I have access to my friends. And

55:27

what I also noticed was

55:30

no, because of some of the ways that

55:32

it intrudes on my life.

55:35

And that point of recognition is

55:37

a very interesting learning within

55:40

this for me. And that is what I'm working

55:42

through at the moment. But

55:44

I just wanted to come back and just let you know,

55:47

a, where we

55:48

were, if any of you are worried

55:50

about getting messages from me, it's fixed,

55:53

it's sorted, it's fine, nothing

55:55

odd will be happening. So from a reassurance

55:57

point of view, but also just this idea...

56:00

of how we see things and how we can move

56:02

forward through that

56:04

sometimes

56:04

inevitable state of being stressed

56:06

or upset. We're human,

56:09

that happens, but it was

56:11

also interesting that that had already shifted

56:13

by the time it resolved. Right, I'm

56:16

going to hush up. Next time I promise

56:18

we will have a whole bunch more positive

56:20

episode for you and

56:23

I hope you really enjoy the rest of the

56:25

week.