0:00

And what is it that you really want

0:02

to be doing? And are you forcing yourself

0:04

to do something else? Maybe you're forcing yourself

0:06

to do sketchbooks because you listen to this

0:08

podcast and one weekend you think, ugh, I

0:10

just don't want to be doing this. Hi

0:19

and welcome to episode 238 of Art Juice. This

0:22

is Honest, Generous and Humorous Conversations to

0:25

Feed Your Creative Soul and Get You

0:27

Thinking with me Louise Fletcher. And

0:30

me, Alice Sheridan. And

0:32

today we are going to talk a little

0:34

bit about sketchbooks, which is a topic we've

0:36

talked about before, but it's not like it's

0:38

a topic that is just covered in one

0:40

podcast because there's all different ways to think

0:42

about it. And I'm quite

0:45

involved in books at

0:47

the moment, various books. So

0:49

I suggested it as a topic and

0:51

we'll just see where it goes. Before

0:53

we get into that though, Alice, what

0:56

have you been up to? Have you

0:58

had any chance to do anything art

1:00

related at all in the last week?

1:04

A little bit I have. Coming

1:06

back, I have been starting to

1:08

think about what

1:11

the year holds for me art-wise because

1:13

I've got two things coming up that

1:15

I actually need work for.

1:17

So, you know, got to get myself organised and

1:20

think what this year is going to be about.

1:22

But it's been a much gentler start to the

1:24

year. And of course, last

1:26

week I was away, I hosted a retreat

1:29

for four people. Oh, how did that go?

1:32

And yeah, it was the first time I'd done

1:34

it on my own. And it was

1:38

amazing. It

1:41

was beyond my

1:43

expectations. Let's just put it that

1:45

way. And it was

1:49

really interesting to see, like there were

1:51

quite a lot of logistical

1:54

organisation things that went wrong

1:56

literally on the morning of

1:59

things that... like the

2:01

place we were going to, the previous people

2:03

hadn't left. So I got a frantic phone

2:05

call or message from the

2:07

owners kind of saying, can you check

2:09

in later? And I'm like, not really,

2:12

we've got food to prep. And we've

2:14

got food delivery coming. And

2:17

it was interesting to notice that in

2:19

the past that would have really flustered

2:21

me. And it didn't. Then

2:26

the oven didn't work. And we had somebody in

2:28

doing all the cooking. My daughter, who's just trained

2:30

as a chef, was doing it. And the first

2:32

meal, she kind of said to me, something's wrong.

2:35

The oven's not cooking. It's turned right up and

2:37

it's pumping out all this heat. Food's

2:39

not cooking. And again, that

2:42

kind of thing, you could go into a

2:45

like, chaos spin about it. And

2:47

none of that mattered. None of

2:49

that mattered. And it was just, it

2:52

was lovely because it was something that I

2:54

have wanted to create for a long time.

2:56

And it was only three nights and two

2:58

days, but it felt like

3:00

longer. And the connection with

3:03

people within that space and what we

3:06

did together and what's happened since in

3:08

just a week. So it finished a

3:10

week ago today. Like we've

3:12

got a WhatsApp group and the messages pinging

3:14

in that WhatsApp group are

3:18

beyond my expectations. So that's been my

3:20

kind of thing. I really wanted a

3:23

whole space for for January. And I've

3:25

almost been not quite letting

3:27

myself think beyond that for the rest of the

3:29

year, because that was my focus. And now I'm

3:31

like, okay, that's fab.

3:34

My brain is going, but

3:37

lots of other things so that you can do that again. And

3:40

I know I need to pay attention to

3:42

my own art. So those are the things that

3:44

I've got going on at the moment. And

3:46

then the membership, Connected

3:49

Artist membership is open for January as

3:51

well. So we've had people

3:53

coming into that very gently. I've only sent out

3:55

one email so far about it. And

3:58

it's just been lovely. to see the

4:00

people coming in for that and we're getting

4:02

our new Mighty Networks space set up. So

4:05

yeah, there's been lots of things going on.

4:08

And yeah, I had a great day

4:11

the other day where I just sat down and played

4:13

not in a sketchbook, but in something else, which I'll

4:15

talk about later, and feeling

4:17

like, OK, now there is space for

4:19

studio time again and what's that going

4:21

to hold? So it's been a really,

4:24

really, as January's go,

4:27

it's been a good one. Well,

4:30

that's good. It's not an easy

4:32

month, January. Don't

4:35

you think? No, I knew someone

4:37

once who used to say February was a tough

4:39

month, but I don't find February tough because it

4:42

starts to get lighter, little shoots

4:45

start to come up. And it's

4:47

short. Yeah, it's got, it's already,

4:49

January is the depth. You're

4:52

not quite seeing the benefits of lighter

4:54

nights yet. And, you know, yeah, I

4:56

agree. It's sometimes, and in the UK,

4:59

it is grim weather wise often. Which

5:02

brings me what I've been up to this week because

5:05

I had Monday scheduled as

5:07

my art day, possibly

5:09

on Wednesday, but definitely Monday, because after

5:11

our conversation a few weeks ago, I

5:13

am scheduling in art days or, you

5:16

know, at least four or five hours on those days to

5:18

make work or do something creative.

5:20

But on Sunday night I went to visit

5:22

my mum and came back

5:24

and on the way back I got

5:26

caught in a flash flood, which I have

5:28

never been in before, with

5:31

the dog in the car. And if anybody's

5:33

seen my dog, he's not small and he's

5:35

not big. He's short and heavy. We,

5:38

the car stalls. With short legs. Yeah,

5:41

very short legs. With short legs. He's

5:43

not a water waiter. No, he's not a

5:46

water waiter and he can't swim. He's never been in

5:48

deep water. I don't know what would happen if he

5:50

got in deep water. Car wouldn't

5:52

start. I looked out and the water

5:54

was kind of well below

5:56

the door. So I called a friend,

5:59

but he wasn't any... anywhere near, so he said it'll take me,

6:01

I'm just on my way back, but it'll take me 40 minutes,

6:04

just stay there. Like

6:06

five minutes later, I looked out of the

6:08

door and the water was already almost up

6:10

to the door. It was coming up so fast

6:12

and it's a part of the road where the

6:15

river just almost touches the road and the river

6:17

had just burst and that was it. So

6:20

I had to call 999. I had to be

6:23

rescued from the car. They

6:25

wouldn't come anywhere near me, the police, they won't

6:27

go into water, they're not allowed, they have to

6:29

stay out. The firemen were still not there and

6:31

the water was rising and she said you'll have

6:34

to get out now because

6:36

if you wait, you'll have to come out the window

6:38

and then how are we going to get the dog

6:40

out of the window? She's shouting all this at me.

6:42

So in driving rain

6:45

and wind, I'm dragging a recalcitrant

6:47

dog out of the back seat

6:49

and trying to carry him in. He's

6:51

so heavy, he's going on a diet, I'm

6:54

telling you. And I'm up to my knees

6:56

in freezing cold water infected

6:58

with God knows what, wading

7:01

to this Range Rover that was up the

7:03

road while they're shouting, come on, you can do it.

7:05

And I was like, it was like a hero movie,

7:08

honestly. And he was slipping out

7:10

of my arms just as we got there and I got

7:12

him in the car. I thought, I'll never breathe again, this

7:14

is it, I'll have a heart attack right here.

7:17

But I didn't. And they

7:19

got us home and the cars totaled. The

7:22

insurance company have taken it but I

7:25

don't think it'll ever run again. The engine

7:27

is... It's a couple

7:29

of years old but yeah, it's

7:32

a big four by four as

7:34

well. But the

7:37

road was okay, okay, surface water,

7:39

surface water suddenly like, oh my

7:41

God, what's happening? Because that

7:45

took up two days of

7:47

then insurance company nonsense

7:49

and recovery vehicle nonsense

7:52

and having to be with the vehicle and then

7:54

they couldn't come. So two days

7:56

of that, two days of personal

7:58

appointments with family members. And

8:02

what I did then was say,

8:04

right, I think I'm never making

8:07

out during the day again. I think that's

8:09

gone, like be melodramatic, but I feel like

8:11

that will never happen again. So

8:14

what can I do instead? And

8:17

that is what brought me to today's topic

8:19

because I brought a bunch of books and

8:21

a bunch of materials into the house and

8:24

said, it's dark. I don't want to

8:26

go out there and rain and walk over to the

8:28

studio and get wet and leave my dog in the

8:30

house, but if I bring everything over here, at least

8:33

I can work in sketchbooks. And actually

8:35

it's really been quite reviving in the

8:38

evening to do that rather

8:40

than sit and watch television, you know, just to

8:42

sit here and make something. And

8:44

that's what made me think about this week's topic

8:46

because just

8:48

to shoot straight into it,

8:51

I feel like

8:53

I've been pushing myself recently

8:55

to make big paintings. I

8:58

feel like it's been like pulling teeth. It's

9:00

just, and I know better than that.

9:02

I know that you're not supposed to just

9:04

do something that doesn't feel good and that

9:07

isn't the way to create it, but we

9:09

all forget what we know. And I was

9:11

pushing, pushing, pushing. And

9:14

then bringing these books. And when

9:16

I say books, there's a couple of sketchbooks. There

9:19

are two old used books that I'm

9:21

using as sketchbooks, like altered books that

9:23

I'm just painting over what's there. And

9:27

I like to have a few on the go because then

9:29

I can leave things to dry and work on other things.

9:32

And as soon as I started

9:34

sticking bits of paper into a

9:36

book and scribbling and writing, and

9:38

suddenly I was happy again. And

9:41

I thought, this is what this is it for

9:43

now. Not forever, but for now,

9:45

this is it. And this is

9:47

enough. I don't have to be

9:50

telling myself that if I don't paint 10

9:52

panels at once, I'm not a creative

9:55

anymore. I can work in these

9:57

books until I feel like I want to do something

9:59

else. And so it's been a

10:01

real relief and a joy to get

10:04

back the fun in what

10:06

I'm doing. And just doing

10:08

anything I want in these books, literally

10:10

anything. I feel like just scribbling something

10:13

ugly on one page, that's what I've done. I

10:16

feel like collaging something, I've done that. But

10:20

just, yeah, I'm really enjoying it and

10:22

I'm recycling bits of junk, like envelopes

10:24

and things, just anything that I've got

10:27

in the house that comes in. I'm seeing how

10:29

I can use it in these books. So

10:33

yeah, that is what I thought we could

10:35

talk a little bit about, is maybe I'm

10:37

calling it retreating into a sketchbook, but it

10:39

doesn't have to be a sketchbook. It's more

10:41

like retreating

10:43

into something else

10:45

when it's not working for you, I suppose.

10:48

Well, it's a different creative practice, isn't it,

10:50

a bit? I've just written the title. We'll

10:53

see which one has ended up. I've

10:56

just written the title on the notes as

10:59

sketchbooks as a sanity saver, because

11:02

that's what it felt like a little

11:04

bit for me this week. And

11:09

I mean, you're more consistent with

11:11

your sketchbooks than I am. You

11:14

think, no, she says no, she's doing it. You

11:16

know what, honestly, I think I look

11:18

more consistent, but honestly, I have months

11:20

where I've got to sketchbook and then

11:22

I'll go crazy again. So yeah, well,

11:24

yeah, so I do too. I have

11:26

ages where I don't go and like

11:28

little patches where I do a little

11:30

bit. But

11:34

again, this week, when I

11:36

was thinking, okay, right, what

11:38

is, and it

11:41

was coming back a little bit to that

11:43

thing of, okay, it's

11:45

a new year, I've had a break, I've

11:47

got things coming up, just

11:50

starting to really touch in with myself

11:52

with this question of like, where

11:55

is my art leading? Where do

11:57

I feel like it wants to

11:59

go? and I was

12:01

going back to my sketchbooks and just

12:03

these little things that I have done

12:06

throughout last year and looking for clues

12:08

in them. Like

12:10

just because I think

12:12

what happens in sketchbooks and why they're so

12:15

valuable is that they

12:19

have moments in them that when almost

12:21

like when they're fresh and new and

12:23

current, we're almost caught up in the

12:26

moment of what we're doing in

12:28

them then. However you

12:30

use your sketchbook, you're using

12:32

it for a purpose

12:35

at that time, even if that

12:38

purpose is to relax,

12:40

to be creative, to give yourself access

12:42

to something that's not a big painting.

12:45

But I think often what happens is

12:47

the little nuggets in there you probably

12:49

don't see as clearly until

12:51

a few months later. And

12:54

that's why they're so good to have

12:56

and to do and look back on. So I

12:59

was just kind of flicking through and saying like,

13:01

what are the little what are the things I

13:03

can see in here? And

13:05

to almost like whispers from my subconscious

13:07

that are just like, hello, this is

13:10

what you're interested in. Hello, look,

13:13

this keeps coming up, you know, the way

13:15

you use color or like, you

13:17

know, there's an overall sense of a little

13:19

bit more calmness or look, you keep coming

13:22

back to using this color palette at

13:24

those moments when you're not thinking about it. And

13:28

I think that's why they're so helpful. And

13:35

I think it doesn't have to be books. No,

13:38

though, often for me,

13:40

it's also sheets of cheap paper.

13:43

I did this class this last month. I don't

13:45

know which month we'll be in when this comes

13:47

out, but I did a class recently in my

13:50

membership and it was about writing

13:52

a creative brief, like the idea of a

13:54

brief that you get as a designer or

13:56

something, but doing it for yourself. And

13:58

it's a process. do, but I

14:01

put it into like a little format

14:03

really basic and the format was basically

14:06

look at your own work over the last

14:08

year, go through iFotos really quickly and

14:10

just and look at other

14:12

art that you've loved recently and then see

14:15

if you can find commonalities between the two and

14:17

write a list of words kind of thing and

14:20

my paintings from last year the

14:23

ones I picked, I always picked ten

14:25

then narrow it down to a few, narrow it

14:27

down to five and the five

14:29

favorites were all cheap scraps

14:32

of paper me

14:34

playing and doing the same as I

14:36

do in sketchbooks basically and

14:39

it's so interesting that like you

14:41

said they weren't my favorite paintings

14:43

but they were the clues

14:45

I felt like they were the clues to

14:48

what might be next they

14:50

weren't my favorite finished paintings and there were things

14:52

I could see in them that I would change

14:55

if they were going to be painted but they

14:57

just had that little ooh

14:59

that's exciting in them

15:02

and also interestingly I don't know if

15:04

you get this but when you look through you

15:06

probably don't because you've bit more confident than me

15:08

perhaps in your artwork but I look and I

15:11

go oh yeah that's the

15:13

one I love that but that's

15:15

not very like no one else will think

15:17

that's good these little voice in my head

15:19

saying yeah but that's just you and then

15:22

I have to remind myself if it's me

15:24

it's someone else all the same

15:26

as I always tell other people and I know

15:28

to tell other people that because I get this

15:30

little voice and you have to

15:33

say if it's me it'll be someone else I

15:36

know this lots of times before there's nothing

15:38

that unusual about me so if I like

15:40

this some other people will do

15:44

you feel that about your sketchbooks

15:47

you feel that's about things that come

15:49

in your sketchbook time yeah sometimes I

15:51

think I really like this page where

15:54

I smudge some charcoal I

15:56

put a bit of gesso on and I scribbled all

15:58

over it with an oil pestle and And I just

16:00

love the way the scribbles are exactly where they are

16:02

and I love the potassium scribbles.

16:05

You know, that's not... Other

16:07

people wouldn't see what I see in it. It's

16:11

not a conscious thought. It's more

16:13

of a subconscious, automatic thing

16:16

that comes in that I have to reframe

16:18

for myself. That's

16:21

interesting because I think I do still

16:23

have that with paintings, like when I

16:25

do something on a painting. I think

16:27

maybe because there is a more clear

16:29

outcome with paintings. Sometimes I

16:31

have that, oh well I love it, but I

16:34

love it. Is it enough? Yeah. That

16:37

comes in into painting. But as you're

16:39

talking about it now, I'm

16:42

thinking, I don't think I've ever had that

16:44

with sketchbooks. I

16:47

think sketchbooks have always been... They've

16:53

always been for me and I haven't

16:56

always been confident in sketchbooks at all.

17:00

You've heard this story, but it was a while ago

17:02

and I think that comes from when

17:04

I was doing foundation and design.

17:06

My friend at the time had

17:08

the most beautiful sketchbooks and she

17:10

had the right kind of sketchbook

17:12

handwriting as well. I

17:15

don't have. Yeah. So they

17:18

always looked beautiful. A mind

17:20

felt... They

17:22

felt immature, they felt scrappy,

17:24

they felt scattered.

17:30

There was no continuity in them. And

17:34

at the time there was a lot

17:36

of that urban sketching and a lot

17:38

of sketchbooks that had to be really

17:41

beautiful, like really beautiful

17:43

illustrative drawings in sketchbooks.

17:46

They never were. So for

17:49

a very long time I had

17:51

a sense of my sketchbooks are

17:53

just like... But

17:55

they have never, never been. I've

17:58

never had that voice about... what

18:00

other people think about them. My

18:02

question with them has always only

18:05

ever been more about, okay,

18:09

well my big question in sketchbook is, is

18:11

this a waste of time when

18:14

I could be resolving this on the painting?

18:16

So that's

18:18

why I think I have quite

18:21

two almost quite separate processes. So

18:23

sometimes what I have to do

18:25

is be a little

18:27

bit more aware of that bridge between what

18:29

happens in sketchbooks and what that's trying to

18:31

tell me and then what's happening in the

18:33

painting apart from

18:35

the ones where I'm doing my kind of studio notes

18:38

or it's much more directly. You

18:41

made me think it's not,

18:43

yeah you made me think in

18:46

the sketchbook it's not what other people

18:48

think because I don't plan to

18:51

really share them with anyone. I

18:54

think it's, is there any value in

18:56

that? Like I like it

18:59

but is it worth pursuing or is

19:02

it anything or is it just me

19:04

or but sometimes I have this feeling

19:07

because if I look back at things I did in the

19:09

past that I no longer think are good but at the

19:11

time I loved them sometimes I

19:13

have the feeling that if we make

19:15

something and it's quite honest and authentic

19:18

we just love it because we can

19:20

see that thing of ourselves. So

19:23

I think it's more that it's kind of

19:25

am I just loving this because that is

19:28

exactly what I wanted to do at that moment

19:30

and now I can see it and it's there

19:32

or am I loving it because

19:34

it's actually got merit and this

19:37

idea of merit, no

19:39

and this that's what I mean this

19:41

idea of merit is ridiculous anyway because

19:43

who says what's got merit? Who

19:46

decides that? But there

19:48

is this voice in my head

19:50

being totally honest that's always there

19:52

questioning does that have merit

19:54

as if there were a panel of judges

19:56

you know like ice skating with cats and

19:59

they would say the score for

20:01

what you've done. Yeah,

20:04

and I get that in

20:06

the sense that there are certainly, there

20:09

were definitely pages or things that

20:11

I do sometimes in the sketchbook

20:13

which feels like it's

20:16

more valuable for

20:18

me, it's more resourceful, it's been,

20:20

if you like, like

20:22

a better signpost, or it feels

20:25

like it's taught me something

20:27

more immediately in that moment and

20:29

there is a kind of satisfaction.

20:31

And you know, I can be

20:33

working on pages in a

20:35

sketchbook and the other evening I was doing

20:37

it on loose sheets, which is another thing. But

20:42

it's easier sometimes, maybe we'll talk about loose

20:44

sheets in a minute, but the

20:47

thing where you're doing sketchbooks, and I

20:50

think one of the things that

20:52

helps with the self-judging is

20:54

to just do it a lot, just

20:57

do it a lot, because the more

20:59

you go through that phase it's like, okay, well this

21:01

is the first one, well that's a bit dull, it's

21:03

not really very exciting, who's interested in that? Okay, well

21:05

there's something here, well that's not really what I plan

21:07

to do, but this seems to be what's happening anyway.

21:10

And then the third thing you do, you think, well

21:12

that's quite interesting, it would never have occurred to me

21:14

to do that when I sat down to do this

21:16

at the beginning, but there's something in that. Then it

21:18

goes off on a tangent, then by about the seventh

21:21

or the eighth page you're like, okay, now we're cooking.

21:25

And you know, so often if you give up

21:28

on page two or

21:30

three of that session, like you haven't got to

21:32

the juicy bit yet, you just haven't got to

21:34

the juicy bit yet. And

21:36

I think that's where people

21:39

who have a really consistent

21:41

sketchbook habit, you

21:43

know, I have some envy for that, because

21:46

I think you get into that space

21:48

much more quickly because you don't have

21:50

the warm-up each time. Yeah,

21:54

I am envious of that, and also

21:56

not enough to make it something

21:58

that's really core. in my life.

22:01

So clearly not that envious, right?

22:04

This is the thing isn't it? You have

22:06

a desire for something, like if the desire

22:08

is strong enough then just fucking do it.

22:10

If I'm not doing it,

22:12

it's not strong enough. It's because there

22:14

are other things that feel more relevant

22:16

or more helpful or more important to

22:18

do. I suppose what I'm saying is,

22:21

I think when we think

22:26

about sketchbooks, I think

22:28

the best way to approach them is

22:30

in an understanding of you, and actually with

22:32

a lot of forgiveness along the way. They

22:35

can only ever be useful for you if

22:39

they are your space to practice.

22:43

Whether that is consistent or

22:46

with pauses in between, you've

22:48

got to have that feeling of forgiveness

22:51

for not every page being

22:55

good or helpful or even interesting. Otherwise you'll

22:57

never get to the juice. Yeah,

23:00

and I love looking at people's sketchbooks

23:03

when they are those beautiful drawings that

23:05

you're describing. Stunning, I love

23:07

that. But also I love

23:10

looking at what

23:12

I call normal sketchbooks like mine, when

23:14

some pages are ugly and some pages

23:17

are unfinished, some pages just have a

23:19

really awkward drawing on them and it's

23:21

not been finished because it didn't work.

23:23

Then another page has something exciting. Actually

23:26

to look at as a sketchbook, not

23:28

that that's the reason we make them,

23:30

but when I've seen those

23:32

books, I'm always more excited by the

23:35

true working sketchbook that you can see

23:37

ideas being worked out in and you

23:39

can see failures and things being tried.

23:43

And so that's how my books are. I never, I

23:46

don't try and go back and make every

23:48

page wonderful. Although in

23:50

this, I'm doing a quite interesting exercise

23:52

in one of the old secondhand books

23:54

where I am keeping the pages open

23:57

for change all the time. So I'm telling

23:59

my I can go back and

24:01

change anything and I have

24:03

changed a few that I thought were finished and I

24:05

say, oh no, I want to add something to that.

24:09

I'm enjoying that process and

24:12

I don't want to call any of

24:14

them finished till the book's done and

24:16

then I'll just put it away. But

24:18

normally in my other books there'll be

24:20

a really bad drawing of Riley that

24:22

I've done at night and then

24:24

there'll be a really great little collage piece that

24:26

I love and then there'll be a bit of

24:29

paint mixing or there'll be where

24:31

I spilled some gesso on a page. It's

24:34

just all over the place and

24:37

I like that. I

24:39

think where I stumble is just that feeling

24:41

of which one

24:43

has merit, which... And

24:46

I think it's a bigger question for me because

24:48

it came out on these big pieces on paper

24:50

too that I loved, that I picked out when

24:52

I did my creative brief. It's like, are

24:55

those the ones? Are those

24:58

really? Is that really what I

25:00

want to do? But it's what

25:02

feels most exciting. So yes, it

25:04

probably is. And for some reason I'm not

25:06

doing it yet. So that's why I'm back in my sketchbook.

25:10

Do you have a consistent sketchbook

25:12

that you like working with size-wise

25:14

or shape-wise? I did. I would

25:16

have answered that last year as

25:18

C-white square medium size ones. I

25:20

like the shape-wise square format. But

25:23

now I've gone to... It's like this

25:25

normal oblong and it's

25:29

like maybe... Is

25:32

that like a five size? Eight

25:34

by five it looks like. Eight

25:36

inches by... And

25:39

the make is a C-white

25:41

also, but it's C-white travel

25:43

journal. Okay, so it's

25:45

slightly thinner paper. Yeah, but the paper always

25:47

on C-white takes so much stuff. I don't

25:49

know what they do to it. Someone told

25:51

me what they do to it, but I've

25:54

forgotten. But I

25:56

took that one with me to New York and actually used

25:59

it as a travel journal. travel journal in New York

26:01

and I liked the book so much that I'm

26:03

thinking, oh I'm gonna probably get

26:05

a few more of those. So

26:07

that's a different shape now and I don't

26:10

think I'll ever be, and I used to

26:12

use those moleskin thin ones. Yeah,

26:14

I've never seen all those because the paper's too thin. Yeah,

26:18

but I used those for drawing for ages

26:20

so I'm never going to have that neat

26:22

shelf of sketchbooks where I'm saying, book. All

26:25

the same. What about you? Do you have a favourite?

26:28

Mine vary. I have some

26:30

bigger ones, some square ones, some viral

26:34

bind, some tiny little pocket

26:36

ones that I like drawing with. I've

26:38

had a very small little, like even

26:41

half postcard size where I've done the

26:44

pages, like you say, where you just

26:46

start adding to the pages randomly throughout

26:48

the book. So you'd

26:51

add something on page 3 and then page 23 and then page 40

26:55

and just keep going.

26:57

And that was a

26:59

really fun kind of little project

27:01

to do. But again, even that,

27:05

it was fun to do and

27:07

that's not an approach that I've

27:09

repeated. Yeah.

27:12

I don't think it does it, and that's the thing, it

27:14

doesn't have to be, does it? It has to be, it's

27:18

just when it strikes you, when it feels

27:20

like the right thing because something from that

27:22

could come back or maybe has come back

27:25

into work that you've made later. Because I

27:27

often get asked, I don't know about you,

27:29

I'm going to put this question to you,

27:31

I often get asked, how do you translate

27:33

what you've done in a sketchbook into a

27:35

painting? And I know some

27:37

people do, but I never

27:39

do. It doesn't work that

27:41

way for me. No,

27:44

it doesn't work that way for me either. I mean, I

27:48

do have a studio notebook that I use

27:50

as a kind of, less so now, but

27:52

I use as a sort

27:55

of troubleshooting for

27:57

a painting. That

28:00

is very different from what I call

28:02

my gathering books. My

28:05

gathering books might be, and

28:07

I quite like to keep them

28:09

quite separate from each other. So

28:12

I will have a book that is drawings

28:14

outside in the landscape, which is

28:16

separate from the one which is the

28:18

little small square book where I do

28:20

collage bits in, which is separate from

28:22

the book where I stick

28:25

things in randomly. So

28:27

again, I don't have a consistent,

28:29

oh, this was my sketchbook that

28:31

was January through till April, and

28:33

then this was April through to

28:35

September of that year. I

28:38

mean, I noticed there was a book that I was

28:40

working in the other day that I started in 2021.

28:44

I mean, and I'm still in that book,

28:47

I'm still in the same book three years later. It's

28:50

going to be a nightmare when I have

28:52

to write your book, what do you call

28:54

it, a retrospective book, your whole career history

28:56

of your sketchbooks. Yes, I

28:59

do. I try to date,

29:02

at least if not every page, like

29:05

occasionally I will do a little date. And

29:07

I try to do a little summary at

29:09

the beginning, like when it started and what's

29:12

covered in that book. And

29:15

I know, I know sort of when I did

29:17

things, but of course, when you go back to

29:19

your diary and your sense of time is completely

29:21

warped and it feels like yesterday and it was

29:23

actually three years ago. Yeah. Matt,

29:26

I get what you know, it's an interesting point

29:28

you bring up because I get asked about that

29:30

a lot. And I am muddled about whether I

29:32

keep separate books or not. Sometimes I'm

29:35

doing everything in one book. So

29:37

I have books from January to April, four books

29:39

at the beginning of this year that were a

29:42

month. And I was mainly working in sketchbooks, funny

29:44

at the same time of the year, maybe it's

29:46

just a thing for me. And

29:48

then they stopped. I didn't really do it after that

29:51

until now. But

29:53

that was everything in one book, whatever I was

29:55

doing, it went in that one book. But then

29:57

I found myself at the end of the year

29:59

naturally. drifting towards, well, this is

30:01

a book of like daily drawing type

30:03

things and this is just like you're

30:05

saying. And I

30:08

actually feel like neither really fits me.

30:11

So that's why I go between

30:13

the two. I'm not that

30:15

happy keeping everything separate because I never have the right

30:17

book with me, but then. So

30:20

now I'm trying this thing of working in

30:22

four or five at once so that I don't have

30:24

to wait for things to dry. And

30:27

so that's really muddling and confused

30:29

because, and I also have a

30:31

lot of sketchbooks that start and don't finish.

30:33

Like when I look on my

30:35

shelves, there's a lot with say half of the

30:37

pages done or a quarter of the pages done.

30:40

And then I've stopped whatever that practice was

30:43

that I was doing is faded out. I

30:45

think that's why I kind of like the idea

30:47

of one book for everything because when one practice

30:49

fades out, the next one can take over. Some

30:53

people are really good with it though,

30:55

aren't they? I saw Austin Cleon the

30:57

other day doing his, he

31:00

does it every time. So when he gets a

31:02

new sketchbook, he weighs it. And

31:04

when it's complete, he weighs it again. And he

31:07

writes in, I don't know, either the beginning or

31:09

the back of the book. It doesn't matter like

31:11

the weight of the starting book and the weight

31:13

of the complete book once it's had the

31:16

pain and the stuff stuck in and

31:18

they're all

31:20

the same size, I think. So like they're all

31:22

ranged out, as you say, all ranged out on

31:25

his shelf. And it is

31:28

interesting because that thing does click

31:31

in of, oh, that's a

31:33

good way of doing it. Why don't I

31:35

do it that way? Like that looks like

31:37

it would be really satisfying that bit. And

31:41

just kind of not the

31:43

way I do it. But I think you're probably right

31:46

about certain times of year. But do you

31:48

think you're right about certain times of year? Yeah,

31:50

that may, you know, maybe now it is

31:53

just gentler, it is more approachable. So

31:56

if you've got paint and things at the kitchen

31:58

table. moment all

32:00

I've got is collage stuff,

32:02

crayons and I've got two

32:05

bags like makeup bags full of just

32:07

stuff and there's some gesso in

32:09

there, there's some watercolors and

32:12

pens and pencils but there's

32:15

no actual paint. Okay

32:17

so these actual paint is over there

32:19

because I do this at the kitchen

32:21

table and you know

32:24

how I am. Well you haven't actually seen

32:26

my studio for a while but stuff

32:29

gets everywhere so I'm frightened to

32:31

bring paint into it. So what I'm

32:33

thinking is when

32:36

I do get my painting day or days

32:38

hopefully that's when I'll go in and add

32:40

paint to some pages so I'll build them

32:42

up in that way. I can still do

32:44

the collage and drawing bits

32:46

in the house. So

32:48

this one I'm working on at the moment

32:51

this secondhand book and I love those because

32:53

the paper is so good in those old

32:55

books, such high quality paper and

32:58

that one is mostly collage and drawing

33:01

and just layering things on top of things on

33:03

top of things until I get something that I

33:05

like and which is similar to

33:07

what I do on my panels when I

33:09

layer vintage papers and then send them back.

33:12

I do love vintage

33:14

papers. I went into this new

33:16

antique shop that's opened near me in

33:19

this little town and he

33:21

had gone to an estate sale and

33:23

bought all the paperwork from this guy

33:25

some lord up in Northumberland and

33:28

he had it in this beautiful

33:30

open drawer thing like pigeon holes

33:33

and he just had papers just in these pigeon

33:35

holes and I had my dog with me and

33:37

I said to him I have to come back

33:39

and spend a few hours going through these papers

33:41

and choose the ones I want because they're all just

33:43

you know buy them separately. The

33:46

papers they were just so beautiful the

33:48

receipts and the old letters and just

33:51

I can't roll around in

33:54

old paper. How do

33:56

you get over saving the rest of those

33:58

because that's my thing with seeing like

34:00

that is like, oh, I got one of

34:02

these. I know. Now, there's

34:04

a few things. There's a letter I

34:06

once got from eBay

34:09

and it came in a parcel of papers and it

34:11

was from a young woman in like

34:13

1907 writing to her

34:15

sister about the fact that she'd had

34:17

a marriage proposal from someone but she

34:20

really liked this other guy and

34:22

he didn't seem to be going to propose and

34:24

what was she going to do? That

34:26

one I can't put. What I did

34:29

with that is I put it in its envelope

34:31

and I stuck it into one of my journals

34:33

so I don't lose it just as a complete

34:35

and I can take the letter out of the

34:38

envelope and read it. So there's the

34:40

odd thing like that but I'm much

34:42

better now at using things

34:44

up because that

34:47

sketchbook is just as important to me as if

34:49

it were a really big painting and if it

34:51

was a big painting, I'd cover it up anyway

34:53

with paint. I could never keep it protected

34:57

and the bits that show through on a

34:59

big painting tend to be surprise bits that

35:01

I wasn't expecting to show through and that

35:03

look good by accident, not things that I've

35:05

deliberately planned around. Yeah, I can't do that.

35:08

Maybe some people can do saving the best

35:10

bits for top layers but I never know

35:12

when the top layer is going to be.

35:14

So now there are some real treasures

35:22

in this book that I'm doing but

35:24

it gives me pleasure to look at

35:26

them in the book and at least

35:28

not lost them. There

35:30

is something very precious isn't there about

35:32

that book. I got out charcoal

35:35

the other day. I don't know, I just

35:37

got an urge. A charcoal

35:40

urge, we've all had it. A

35:42

charcoal urge. A charcoal urge and

35:46

the dry beautifully coloured, you know

35:48

the unison pastels those

35:52

and I was just working on and I

35:54

got through, I wasn't working in a book,

35:57

I was working on loose sheets just like

35:59

a four pack of cartridge paper and I

36:01

got through a whole pack. Wow. Yeah.

36:08

But then I'm left with like all these

36:10

loose sheets and I'm thinking that's fine. Sometimes

36:12

I quite like loose sheets because then you

36:14

can just tape them all up on your

36:16

wall and see everything and I

36:18

find that quite helpful. And

36:21

it's also quite good. It's

36:23

quite good as a way to get over that

36:25

my sketchbook has to be precious here. You do

36:27

it on loose sheets and then you can either,

36:30

you know, you combine them if you want to,

36:32

you can stitch them if you want to, you

36:34

can stick them in something if you want to,

36:36

you can just make a folder, whatever,

36:40

cut them up, stick them onto something else.

36:42

I think working on loose sheets is a

36:44

really good way in

36:47

or back in if you get that

36:49

kind of sketchbook paralysis. Yes, I agree.

36:52

And it gives you, it's a nice way of

36:54

like you can use all the same palette if

36:56

you want to or all the same materials, unlike

36:59

multiple. It's

37:01

like working in a series on hyperglass

37:03

because you can do so many. And

37:05

like you say, you might get the

37:07

first five might be rubbish and then they get

37:10

better and better. Yeah. You

37:12

struggle trying to bind them. I've got

37:14

no patience for bookbinding. I did try

37:17

sewing them up once but they looked awful. Yeah,

37:19

I suspect these will get,

37:23

some of them probably will get thrown

37:25

away fairly easily. Immediately. And

37:27

some of them will get taped up to the studio

37:29

wall and then they'll live

37:31

there perhaps while I'm doing paintings. And

37:34

then, you know, they might

37:36

go. I quite

37:38

like that lack of preciousness about them.

37:41

And that's not a sketchbook then. That

37:44

is something different. But

37:49

it's this process of

37:52

how you go from nothing to

37:54

something. And

37:59

I've also seen. people get

38:01

stuck in the sketchbook stage.

38:05

Like where, I think it's an interesting

38:07

question to ask yourself, like if you,

38:10

like one of the things that we often

38:12

talk about is how much time as an

38:15

artist do you spend working on your art

38:17

versus doing the things that you might need

38:19

to market it, or like, you

38:22

know, editing images for your website and

38:24

doing that sort of stuff, like what's

38:26

the proportion like? I think there's

38:28

another question, which is in

38:31

your creative world, how

38:33

much time would you spend on

38:35

something that is towards

38:37

a finished result, like painting, and

38:40

how much is the gathering,

38:43

exploring, creative? And

38:46

personally, I think there's different phases,

38:48

there's different stages where each of

38:50

those takes a priority. And

38:53

I think sometimes people get stuck

38:55

in the exploring sketchbook

38:58

stage. Because like, as

39:00

soon as you start doing a painting, it's like

39:02

a painting with capital

39:05

P's and like you've got to do it properly.

39:07

Yeah. But I think it's always a

39:09

good question, like actually, where have I been spending more of

39:11

my time? Have I been

39:13

doing too much in the production zone and I

39:15

need to go back to this? Like what do

39:17

I need? I think that's

39:19

what happened to me. I think pushing

39:22

in the production zone, pushing

39:25

to that when I wasn't ready for it,

39:27

when I'm ready for

39:29

sketchbooks. There's also, there are

39:31

also some people, and I can think of

39:33

a few, who's art is sketchbooks and that

39:36

is what they do. And they're really happy

39:38

with that and they don't want to produce

39:40

paintings and that's not what they do. And

39:43

I think that's really valid. But I think what

39:45

you're saying is when you do

39:47

want to produce paintings, but you're

39:49

not doing because you're staying safe

39:51

in the experimentation. But

39:53

there is a danger of not experimenting, which

39:55

is where I was at, where you're just

39:57

simply trying to push through to make something.

40:00

before you've done the experimenting.

40:02

It's a constant balance, isn't

40:04

it? Just finding. Yeah,

40:07

there's somebody, I think she does,

40:09

I'm not sure if she's done

40:12

it as a course that you can take all the

40:14

time, but Cheryl Taves, and

40:17

she's on Instagram as Cheryl

40:20

Taves, and is it Insight

40:22

Creative? Yes, I think so, yeah. Yeah,

40:25

she has a 30-day sketchbook

40:27

challenge, which is a really great,

40:29

I think you can take it any time. I

40:31

think she might have a patch this time of

40:33

year where she does it live, but I think

40:35

you can do it any time you want to.

40:38

With some really nice prompts, she writes

40:41

a lot, Cheryl, so she's quite

40:44

an introspective approach, and

40:46

it's great if you like that sort

40:49

of quite considered and a lot of

40:51

reading. It's not a,

40:53

okay, let's get physical, here's

40:55

all the techniques. It's quite

40:57

a, like, let's draw

40:59

these things out of you. But

41:03

that's, I really like the

41:05

way she does, and yeah, I

41:07

have Cheryl Taves' sketchbook envy for sure,

41:10

because she's a consistent sketchbook person. Yeah,

41:12

yeah. And also sometimes,

41:14

yeah, I look at them and I

41:16

think, I mean, I want that

41:18

to be on a painting, not in a sketchbook. I

41:21

love the, I think it's

41:23

the preciousness of books that I love, because I

41:25

love books anyway. So it's the, it's

41:28

the, like, opening it up, and it's this

41:30

little treasure which is private to you, but

41:33

whenever you want, you get to open it and look.

41:36

I think that's one of the things that I

41:38

really like about sketchbooks and why I wish I

41:40

was consistent all the time with them, because I

41:42

would love to be the kind of person, here's

41:45

where I get envy, people who say, I've been

41:47

doing this since I was 18 or 12, and

41:51

these are all my sketchbooks that I've got

41:54

since then, and they've just built up, and

41:56

their sketchbooks may have changed over the years,

41:58

but they've just kept keeping it. books

42:00

that would be amazing. A

42:02

lot for someone to clear out when they

42:04

do Swedish death cleaning but until then you

42:07

would have... I love

42:10

that name. It's such a good idea as well

42:12

but that's for another podcast. But yeah

42:15

I love that idea but that's not me. I've

42:17

got very sporadic you know

42:19

early day things and then more recently

42:22

I've maybe got four books a year and

42:24

they're at... they've come at different

42:26

times and then gone and then

42:28

come. All right

42:30

then so key tips then. I

42:34

think what's interesting is what's brought both of

42:36

us back to this subject now is

42:39

a sense of this feels

42:41

like the right thing to be doing

42:43

for this time and

42:47

anything that you can do that

42:49

takes that sense of judgment out

42:51

of it and ease

42:54

into it. So practical space. I

42:56

have to say my charcoal and

42:59

pastel is messy

43:01

damn it. Like I wouldn't

43:03

recommend that for a kitchen

43:05

table, sketchbook thing. It's yeah

43:08

it's a grubby old mess but

43:10

what I think... and

43:14

I did this when I had younger children

43:16

and I was feeling really unconnected was

43:18

having a tray or a box with

43:21

sketchbook kit materials that you

43:23

could keep and keep

43:26

it visible damn it. Like don't

43:28

tidy it away you know put it on your

43:31

coffee table or in front of the telly or

43:33

something and do it there

43:35

but don't have to go and find

43:37

all the materials to do it. That's

43:40

the easiest way to get started again.

43:42

Yeah but I do think you need a

43:45

nugget of something to get you into it because

43:47

I've also fallen into the trap sometimes of feeling

43:50

okay I need to do something in my sketchbook

43:52

and then just doing a couple of random drawings

43:54

that are just like

43:56

these these really are pointless because I have

43:59

no idea. no idea at all

44:02

what I am investigating here.

44:04

Why am I drawing? I mean classic

44:07

one at one point, I drew a bloody

44:09

soap dish and then I

44:11

was like well this is a really boring drawing and

44:13

it's like well of course it is because you're not

44:15

remotely interested in soap dish. You know, I

44:19

mean what possessed me? You

44:21

know, other than this sense of

44:23

you should be drawing daily. Well

44:25

what's around you? Yeah, I mean

44:28

that's okay if you're practicing learning to

44:30

draw then you know what you're investigating.

44:32

I'm trying to get better at

44:34

drawing. Still think something more interesting.

44:36

Okay so

44:38

sketchbook tips number one. Pick something more

44:40

interesting than the soap dish. I'm

44:43

going to get you to tell some people

44:46

that I make soap dishes. And they're really

44:48

interesting. You don't know how interesting soap dishes

44:50

can be and soap dish makers are very

44:52

offended by what you said. They can be

44:55

very beautiful. I think

44:58

a big tip for me is what we've been

45:00

saying about just listening whether it's

45:02

the right time and what is it that

45:04

you really want to be doing and are

45:06

you forcing yourself to

45:08

do something else? Maybe

45:11

you're forcing yourself to do sketchbooks because you're

45:13

listening to this podcast and one weekend you

45:15

think oh I just don't want to be

45:17

doing this. It's got to feel good,

45:19

it's got to feel exciting. And

45:22

I think that's the point as well is

45:24

that yes there is a lovely thing

45:28

that you were creating but if your

45:30

sketchbook just ends up being

45:32

nothing more than a springboard into

45:34

other paintings, great. Done

45:37

its job. You

45:39

know if you start off by working in

45:41

a sketchbook and then you start to get the twitchy

45:44

fingers and the urge to go and paint,

45:46

you know it's all right then to drop

45:48

the sketchbook habit. Yeah. There's

45:50

no has to in any of this. Yeah

45:53

because we can make rules. I could feel

45:55

myself making a rule when I said I'm

45:57

going back to sketchbooks so I could feel myself.

46:00

saying right for three months that's all I'm

46:02

going to do. Well I'm going to do

46:04

an hour a day. Yeah I don't know

46:06

if I'm going to do it for three

46:08

months or three hours or three weeks. Let's

46:10

just see what I feel like. The

46:14

danger in that is that you stop before you

46:18

get to the seventh eighth thing isn't

46:20

it? But

46:22

I mean like you say if I

46:24

get the urge to rush off and

46:26

paint, if it's a true urge it

46:28

will be because I'm inspired because I

46:30

rather than the urge to you know

46:32

what I should write I'm not being

46:34

productive I need to go over there

46:36

and make some paintings. I think different

46:39

urges isn't there? And it's distinguished it's

46:41

always what feels exciting it's always that.

46:43

Yeah yeah and in that

46:45

sense it's not as simple as making

46:47

rules or not making rules so

46:50

much as knowing what you

46:52

need and adjusting to that attuning to that

46:55

in a way that's really honest. If

47:00

I could just maybe wrap

47:02

this up but I was going to do this

47:04

what's inspired but actually it's just so relevant to

47:06

what we're talking about now. I had two visitors

47:09

staying at my house in quick succession that's another

47:11

reason why I didn't get any out though and

47:14

we had great conversations but both times

47:17

one was an old colleague I haven't

47:19

seen for years with some

47:21

great in-depth conversations about creativity and the

47:23

other one was Tracy Tompkins who I

47:26

work with on Art Tribe. Tracy's

47:28

very wise and we were talking

47:30

about I was talking to her about

47:32

it just feels like every

47:35

time I get five minutes to make

47:37

out something else happens and somebody else

47:39

needs me and I'm just desperate

47:42

to find some time somewhere but I don't

47:44

want to let anyone down because these are

47:46

people I care about and I want to

47:48

help and she said

47:51

something I'm paraphrasing now if

47:53

she's listening I'll get it wrong but

47:55

basically she was saying is

47:57

it possible that this is just the time?

48:00

when actually like the universe or whatever you want

48:02

to call it is saying this

48:04

is more important at the moment these other things

48:06

like is it possible that forcing

48:08

yourself to do art isn't actually the

48:11

right thing at the moment that actually

48:13

these other things might be what

48:15

you should be doing or what you need to be

48:17

doing and suddenly I just

48:20

felt this massive weight fall off me

48:22

like yeah we can't

48:24

have everything and I

48:26

actually this is not a case

48:28

of people taking advantage this is

48:31

people I want to support and

48:33

things I want to do and

48:35

therefore if I make

48:37

the choice that for now they're

48:39

going to be my priority I can

48:42

kind of breathe and then just do

48:44

my sketchbooks in the cracks and

48:47

still feel connected I think

48:49

that's all I need is to feel connected

48:51

to being creative if I'm

48:54

if I don't have that in any way I start to

48:56

suffer for it but at

48:59

the moment sketchbooks is a really good

49:01

compromise and that feeling I think

49:03

a lot of us have because the older

49:05

you get we were just saying before we

49:07

started the harder life seems to get sometimes

49:10

or the more challenges life seems to throw up

49:12

or the more time sucks it gives us and

49:16

just allowing yourself to say oh

49:18

okay maybe that is I'm

49:20

thinking oh you're keeping me away from

49:23

my destiny but maybe

49:25

that is my destiny at the moment and

49:27

that's okay I mean

49:30

and this goes back to the question as well doesn't

49:32

it of the question of how

49:34

do you translate your sketchbooks into paintings

49:36

and and like I said my answer

49:39

is that I don't there

49:41

they are separate things and I think that

49:43

relationship with the sketchbook can very much be

49:45

a two-way thing I mean when I was

49:47

sitting with my mum in hospital this morning

49:50

and there was a guy in the waiting room and she

49:52

nudged me because she used to do work like that she's

49:54

like look that guy's drawing the guy

49:56

over there in his sketchbook and

49:59

I thought and he was, you

50:01

know, you could see, you could see that looking

50:03

and the looking and the looking and I thought,

50:05

A, what brilliant things to be doing for your

50:07

brain and eye coordination. And what

50:10

a gift to always have that. Yes,

50:12

we can always take the book with us and read a

50:14

book, but

50:18

to be able to do that kind

50:20

of drawing in those in

50:22

those moments. And I haven't

50:25

done that kind of drawing

50:27

in those kinds of sketchbooks for a very

50:29

long time. And a little bit of me

50:31

just want a bit

50:33

of that would be a nice thing

50:35

to do. But also, even

50:39

the challenge of being bored by your own

50:42

environment and the challenge of like, okay,

50:44

if you're not drawing the soap dish, but

50:46

find something like what is of interest to

50:48

you here? Like that, that's the key

50:51

question in your making art. What is of

50:53

interest to you here? And if

50:56

there's nothing of interest, we'll find

50:58

it. You know, what is

51:00

of interest? Is it the way the light's

51:02

making a shadow from that leaf? Okay, great.

51:04

Good. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

51:07

I did a little bit of that in New

51:09

York while John wrote because we would sit together and

51:11

he would do a bit of writing in a

51:13

cafe and I would get my book out and it

51:15

drew him quite a bit. And

51:18

I find it's always people, even though I don't

51:20

do figurative work, if I'm in a cafe and

51:22

I know you've said about being told by your

51:24

mum, go draw people in the cafe. But

51:26

I quite like the challenge of just drawing

51:29

those young guy with a backpack, I

51:31

remember, and like just the way shoulders

51:33

went in the backpack. See how few

51:35

lines I can capture that. And by

51:38

the way, the drawings are not very good.

51:40

So when you talk about urban

51:42

sketches with beautiful sketchbooks, my

51:44

travel journal will never look like

51:46

that because I don't have the patience. I

51:49

just don't want to do that. I just have fun

51:51

with a few lines. Did you

51:53

notice a change though over the time

51:56

period just that you were away? Yeah,

51:58

I got better at capturing. things

52:00

and I tell you what I got better at choosing

52:02

in 10 days. Right.

52:05

Yeah and not every day I missed

52:07

a few days but I got better

52:09

at choosing which bits of I

52:12

became fascinated with road signs because there's

52:15

a gazillion road signs on every pole

52:17

and just the way all the

52:19

road signs and traffic lights and I ended up doing

52:21

a bunch of drawings about that which

52:23

was fun and why am I looking at

52:25

that and not this I don't know. Yeah

52:28

and that's the thing that I think sketchbooks

52:31

helps you with that process of

52:33

the filtering and what

52:35

is it that I'm interested in here. Oh

52:39

yeah okay good. Mine

52:44

were about colour. What

52:46

were about colour? My pages.

52:49

Oh we

52:51

can't see them though you can't see them. I know

52:53

they're over there. Okay

52:59

then so what's inspired them? I

53:03

have a quick intellectual one and a

53:05

quick and a quick cheesy one.

53:08

Quick intellectual one I bought a book

53:10

in Manhattan that I've never seen here

53:12

although maybe it's available Keith Herring's journals

53:14

do you know the New York kind

53:17

of graffiti-ish guy with his little people if

53:19

you don't know who he is look him

53:21

up Herring H-A-R-I-N-G. He's

53:24

got these journals and they're really a good

53:26

read someone has obviously collated them and

53:28

published them and he never meant them

53:30

for public view I'm sure but

53:32

there's so much in there about the

53:34

why going back to what you were

53:36

saying what question am I asking he's

53:38

constantly asking why am I making this

53:40

work what is it about and how

53:42

can I know when the answer doesn't

53:44

come till after but

53:46

if I could he says something like if I

53:48

could work out what I'm trying to do now

53:50

I could explore those ideas in

53:53

a really organized fashion but I only

53:55

ever find out what I'm doing after

53:57

I've done it and that's too late

53:59

and Even though

54:01

his art is nothing to do with

54:03

mine or, you know, we're not in the

54:05

same family of art at all, I really

54:07

enjoy reading any artist's kind of

54:09

thoughts about their process. So

54:12

I'm enjoying that book and the

54:14

other much, much easier one is I cannot

54:17

wait to finish the traitors in

54:19

the next two days on BBC.

54:23

I love that show so much and

54:25

I don't get excited about TV very

54:27

much. I've even understand it and I've

54:29

looked at it and I'm like, I'm

54:31

not getting sucked into that. It is

54:33

the best reality TV show I've ever

54:35

seen. It's so good. So

54:37

if you're watching the traitors, you

54:39

know what I mean and go

54:41

Harry Featherwind. But

54:44

by the time this comes out, we'll know if that

54:46

happened. Oh, it's such a good show. They did an

54:48

American version, but it was very over

54:51

the top, I felt like. OK. It's

54:54

like what British people think Americans would like

54:56

rather than what Americans would actually like.

54:58

It was a bit too much, but gosh,

55:02

yeah, it's so good anyway. What about

55:04

you? Good. All right.

55:06

Well, my lowbrow thing then,

55:09

just at the point of

55:11

your story at the beginning, have

55:14

you seen After the Floods on

55:16

ITV? No, my mum

55:18

said it was good. Yeah, sorry,

55:20

everybody. This is ITV. But it's I

55:22

think it's from the same writer that

55:25

wrote Happy Valley. I

55:27

don't think it's as good because I

55:29

don't think it has quite that edge

55:31

that she has as a character. But

55:34

yeah, it starts with floods. I think it's

55:36

back in the Lake District. I might not

55:39

be able to watch About Floods. I'm still

55:41

traumatised. Yeah,

55:44

OK. So just watch the first scene. If

55:48

you're going to watch the rest. The

55:50

other thing I would say is what's inspired.

55:55

Really, what's inspired is just this

55:57

sense of within a moment.

56:00

months where everybody is, how are you doing

56:02

on your New Year's resolutions by the way

56:04

and all of that stuff. It's

56:08

this funny mix of taking

56:10

time out and also

56:12

what happens when you just take a

56:15

step towards committing to something, like

56:18

knowing that your energy is behind it and

56:21

whatever work you need to do to

56:23

get into that space, just

56:25

do it because I

56:28

have been reminded again how essential

56:31

that is and how magic it is and how

56:33

when we get out of our own stuff in

56:35

way, and this is one of the reasons I

56:37

didn't want to talk about emails, I

56:40

am so fed up with things like, and

56:43

only because I get in my

56:45

own way and I get fed up with

56:48

it too, like all this worry and angst

56:50

about the how and the this and the

56:52

connecting things. And I've had two things in

56:54

the last two weeks, both of which have

56:56

been on my list for a long time

56:58

because I didn't know how to fix it.

57:02

And when I just got in there, okay,

57:04

well, if I could just make this easy

57:06

and I'll just start doing this and both

57:08

things got either solved or sorted

57:11

or done when the momentum was

57:13

there enough just to

57:15

get on with it and make a start, just

57:17

to get on with it and make a start. But

57:20

when you stay in that I'm all

57:22

in a pickle in my head situation,

57:24

it doesn't work. It

57:27

never, never, never, never works.

57:29

So if all your January

57:31

is about is like being

57:34

settled and looking after yourself and feeling good,

57:37

the rest will come. Honestly,

57:40

I've just been reminded of that all months

57:42

long. It's been insane. Yeah. Well,

57:44

that's it for us this week.

57:46

Thank you so much for listening.

57:48

You can find us on social

57:50

medias wherever you want to look for

57:52

us just by looking for Alice Sheridan or Louise

57:55

Fletcher and you will find us. We'll

57:57

see you again soon. Bye.