0:00

Like I really care, I'm really in

0:02

it, I'm really invested and it did make me

0:04

think how often we

0:06

risk

0:08

giving up episode one or two of our own

0:10

work.

0:15

Hi and welcome to episode 227

0:18

of Art Juice. This is honest, generous and humorous

0:21

conversations to feed your creative soul

0:23

and get you thinking with me Louise Fletcher.

0:26

And me Alice Sheridan. And

0:28

this week we're answering a question that

0:31

came in to me, oh good

0:33

grief, quite a long time ago and actually

0:36

I can't see in my, oh July 27th 2022. So yes,

0:38

so we're really quick at answering

0:44

these

0:46

questions so don't give up if you send

0:48

us something you want us to discuss and we haven't

0:50

discussed it. We will get to it eventually

0:54

and it's all about design and

0:57

we'll get to that and it's from

0:59

a listener called Lita and we'll get

1:01

to Lita's question once we

1:03

talk about that. But first of all, what

1:06

has your week been like Alice?

1:08

My week's been fun.

1:11

Good. I've had a lot of

1:13

fun interactions. I had a lovely day with

1:15

a friend which I think I dropped into the

1:18

end of the podcast last week. Yeah,

1:21

just reminded me what it was like

1:23

to giggle. My

1:25

parents have arrived back.

1:28

They

1:32

were away on a boat trip, which

1:35

I think, put it this way,

1:37

they've come back saying that's it, they're never traveling

1:39

ever again. And certainly

1:42

when they arrived back they were exhausted and some

1:45

sad things like my mum had lost her engagement ring

1:47

on the journey home and they had a 24-hour flight

1:50

delay and it really felt

1:53

like it would be very easy to fall back into

1:55

that, oh everything's down and like

1:58

I'm just not up for that.

1:59

at the moment, just not up for it.

2:02

So my focus has been on

2:04

testing with them, going

2:07

around, doing my mum's nails, which is why

2:09

my nails are painted, pointless,

2:12

but it feels good, teaching them a new

2:14

card game. Just

2:16

kind of having a bit of fun really. Just

2:19

funny things like we've got to have

2:21

some trees pruned. We have trees

2:23

at the front of our house that have to be pollarded every year

2:25

so their roots don't grow too big. And

2:28

got a new guy to come and quote for that and

2:30

he was just hysterical. He

2:32

was just really, really funny and

2:34

just reminded

2:37

me how much of those interactions are nice.

2:39

And then I have been on Chief Procrastination,

2:42

which we could have talked about this week actually,

2:44

Chief Procrastination

2:47

about getting back into the studio, which

2:50

I busted through yesterday. So. Oh

2:53

good. Yeah, good.

2:55

It's been a very long time.

2:57

Yeah. Did it feel good?

3:00

It felt really good and it

3:03

partly only felt good because I'd spent

3:05

two days making myself feel really

3:07

crappy. You

3:09

know, really

3:11

like, this is what I'm going to do. Like I'd go to bed

3:13

with full intentions and then somehow

3:16

there would be lots of other things that needed doing

3:18

and there were lots of other things that needed doing

3:20

to be fair. Yeah, so it was very

3:22

easy to find excuses not to go. So

3:24

the way I went through it at the end of the day

3:26

was really risk messing up

3:28

another day so badly. Knew I

3:31

would feel so rubbish at the end of the day.

3:33

I had something that I had

3:35

to get back home for as a deadline.

3:38

So I just thought, right, just

3:40

go and you've only got an hour and

3:42

what can go wrong in an hour? And I

3:45

went and I tidied and cleaned

3:47

and swept and moved things

3:49

that felt old that I was no longer interested

3:52

in and reacquainted myself and got

3:55

quite like, oh, there's quite a lot

3:57

of good things here I quite enjoy really. So

3:59

good.

4:00

Yeah, it's good. It's done. It's shifted

4:03

and I'm back to it. So

4:05

that's how I do it. But it's a body

4:07

thing. It's a movement thing. It's like when

4:10

you get stuck in your head about it and

4:12

I was totally there and I'd have conversations

4:15

with people. Oh, I want to make bigger

4:17

work, but what do I do? Then I'm going to have to hire

4:19

a van. And it's just

4:21

all like future problem thinking,

4:23

which is never the answer. It's

4:25

never the answer. And

4:27

the more you think about it, the

4:30

harder it all seems. It's like anything in

4:32

life. The more you think through all the possible,

4:34

oh, and I don't know what these are

4:36

going to look like at the end. And how am I

4:38

going to get stuck? I don't know where to start because

4:41

I don't know where I'm going. Well, you never do.

4:43

So you just have to start. But I

4:45

was the same as you, as we've talked about this recently,

4:48

how most, both of us weren't painting for

4:50

quite a long time. And I've

4:52

just got back into it recently and it was the

4:54

same thing. There were a couple

4:56

of days where I've been painting where I've

4:58

really had to push myself to

5:01

go over there. I'll be sitting doing things

5:03

on my computer, all things

5:06

which do need doing at some point, but don't need

5:08

doing, we're getting darker evenings

5:10

now. It gets darker earlier on. It's

5:12

a good time to do those things in the evenings,

5:15

not when I could be painting in good

5:17

light. And there's something about

5:20

just pushing yourself to actually get

5:22

there, that once you're there and you're looking at stuff

5:25

and you see the paint and you think, oh, well, just for

5:27

me anyway, I think, oh, I'll just put a

5:30

bit of white on there. That looks like it.

5:32

That would look good there. And then, oh,

5:34

I'll need to wash all the brushes and get everything sorted

5:36

out now because now I'm in the mood to get going.

5:39

And then hours can pass quite

5:41

happily. And then I think, why did I not?

5:44

I know. Why was it so hard? Yeah.

5:47

It's because we, you've said before that procrastination

5:50

is when we don't know. What

5:53

to do, or we really hate

5:55

it, but it isn't. I don't really hate it. So

5:57

it is for me. I

5:59

don't really.

5:59

know what I'm going to do

6:02

and like you said the thinking about

6:04

it doesn't it doesn't do anything you've got

6:06

to go see what you're going to do by doing it.

6:09

And I think it's also when something starts

6:12

to feel important like the longer

6:14

you delay it the more important

6:16

it feels the more stories you tell yourself

6:18

about why why you're delaying

6:21

it but I could very easily which I wasn't

6:23

actually this time get in a twist

6:25

about oh I haven't done any painting all summer

6:28

but put it put it this way by the time

6:30

I went I went to do the code to get into the studio

6:32

and I couldn't get in through the door and

6:35

I had to go round the front and

6:37

talk to the caretaker and he was like we changed

6:39

that months ago you can't use that door

6:41

anymore

6:42

you've got to come in this way it's like

6:44

you've really not been for a long time have you I don't

6:46

know

6:48

but it's when things start to feel too

6:51

important because when we put too much

6:53

importance on them and of course it's

6:56

going to be a bit daunting

6:57

yeah

6:58

you know

6:59

just breaking that isn't it anyway

7:02

yeah we'll see

7:05

so we're both painting again everybody so that's

7:07

good news yep

7:09

with no pressure yeah

7:12

absolutely no

7:13

pressure I mean I have no events or

7:15

plans or

7:16

anything for what I'm doing so it's just

7:19

free exploration which is really good

7:22

okay

7:28

so if

7:29

I am free exploring how

7:30

am I taking design

7:33

into consideration this is a question that

7:35

we got as I say a year

7:37

ago now from Lita and

7:40

I've saved all the questions that you send me and

7:43

then we go through them once in a while and this one

7:45

caught our eye today and Lita says

7:48

I would like to know how you use the

7:50

design principles in your work and your

7:52

assessment of how they elevate the end

7:54

result for example

7:56

you both use lines differently contrast

7:59

and value patterns are also evident.

8:02

My guess is that much of this you both

8:04

do instinctively now or

8:07

intuitively, but it

8:09

would be interesting to know how you see these design

8:11

elements in the finished pieces, why they

8:14

are important, how you've used them over

8:16

time, and it might help us

8:18

to give us more attention and understand

8:20

their significance. So I looked

8:22

back and we haven't discussed

8:25

design. Also

8:28

maybe thought of as composition or however

8:30

you think of it as a listener, you

8:32

might have a different word for it, but the

8:35

overall layout of our painting,

8:37

the overall elements that comprise

8:40

the painting. So

8:42

we thought, yeah, let's tackle Leta's question.

8:45

So go on Alice and then I'll just wrap

8:47

up at the end.

8:49

Because Alice is a graphic designer so

8:51

you have some design training which I

8:53

always envy because I always think that must

8:55

give you a foundation. I

8:58

think in a way it does help and

9:01

it was interesting when I first came across

9:04

this idea of

9:06

design in

9:08

paintings

9:10

was when I did the course

9:14

many years now with Nicholas Wilton.

9:17

And before then in art terms,

9:19

I'd always heard it referred to as

9:21

composition. And composition

9:25

in the sense of paintings was things like, you

9:27

know, have you got like

9:29

a, is there a winding rope that's leading

9:32

to a vanishing point?

9:35

Is there a focal area?

9:38

Is it on a cruciform basis?

9:41

And various almost like set

9:43

constructs or rules like rules

9:45

of thirds or golden

9:48

sections and those kind of things, but

9:51

they were all almost like linear

9:55

ways to break up the surface

9:57

of a painting. And So

10:00

what Nick really put in place was

10:02

he brought in the value idea,

10:05

which is how your brain interprets it.

10:08

And I think what that did for me was

10:10

it completely linked up with,

10:13

as you say, my experience of a graphic designer,

10:16

where we would have called it layout. Right.

10:18

You've got a number of different elements that

10:21

you need to include, have a

10:23

different hierarchy. And

10:26

you need to create something that is balanced,

10:29

but also of interest on a page.

10:31

If it's too balanced, it's too harmonised,

10:34

you need a little bit of tension.

10:36

Mm hmm.

10:37

So I'd always done that with

10:39

a layout. And in graphic design

10:41

terms, you know, before we had computers,

10:44

it literally was cutting things out

10:46

and moving them around a page. And

10:49

then you would do paste up and then you would get your microfilms.

10:54

Whereas when you paint, you're putting it on directly and

10:56

once it's painted, you can't move it. So

10:59

I think there were two things that really

11:02

shifted to me and I think is interesting

11:05

when we come to the idea of painting.

11:08

And one is the ability

11:10

to move things and change them and not

11:12

get stuck with what you

11:15

have done first off. And

11:19

as soon as I started thinking about paintings

11:21

in this form of layout and constructing

11:24

it in the ability to move things around

11:26

by painting over, but I'll come on to another

11:29

tip in a minute. That

11:31

really helped in terms of, oh,

11:33

I get what you mean now about

11:36

design. Whereas

11:38

composition for me had always

11:40

felt really restrictive, like

11:42

my painting had to fit one of these

11:45

rules, like rules of thirds of blah blah

11:47

blah blah blah. And that

11:50

always felt like you were sort of painting

11:52

to order. I

11:55

remember thinking about it like design just

11:57

made it feel much freer for me. Yeah.

11:59

Do you know Bob

12:02

Burridge? Have you ever seen him on

12:04

YouTube? He's an American painter,

12:07

really great teacher, very inspiring.

12:09

I'm sure lots of people listening will have seen

12:11

his videos. He's an older gentleman

12:14

now, but when he first started he was maybe

12:16

middle aged anyway. He

12:19

teaches a lot and he does a lot of demos on

12:21

YouTube and he offers a composition

12:24

chart. He paints both abstractly

12:26

and semi-representationally and he's

12:29

very, very good. But he

12:31

offered this composition chart you could download

12:34

and it was like 12, the 12 compositions

12:36

of a painting and it was just, what,

12:39

no, it was just what he said. So

12:41

this was when I was beginning, so I downloaded

12:44

it and also a colour

12:46

wheel where you could turn the colours and

12:48

know you would get a palette that worked

12:50

if you matched the colours in this way. I can't

12:53

remember quite how that worked, but both

12:55

things felt exactly what you just did,

12:57

which for those who obviously

12:59

can't see what Alice did, she vomited.

13:01

Well, she pretended to vomit. As

13:04

I'm literally typing in the links,

13:06

I was like, you started talking and I thought, oh, this might be useful.

13:09

Type in links, Bob Burridge composition

13:12

chart. Yeah. Okay, maybe not. No,

13:15

but look for Bob Burridge's videos

13:17

though because he is very

13:18

inspiring in his looseness and

13:20

freedom with paint and the way he encourages you

13:22

to explore. But yes,

13:25

there were things like here's the cruciform

13:27

composition, here's the this one. And

13:30

I would look at them and I was looking at what I

13:32

was doing and thinking, okay, I can't really see

13:34

how I make that work and I don't

13:36

really understand that one. That one doesn't

13:39

make any sense to me. And I'm

13:41

sure they're totally valid

13:43

and everything. But for me, yeah, I

13:46

was really lost. And the thing

13:48

I took from Nick's

13:51

course, because I was the same as you, that's where

13:53

I first heard about it. And

13:56

I didn't have any design background to pin it

13:58

to. So the

13:59

thing I took from him is this idea

14:02

of

14:03

bringing in contrast as

14:06

being

14:08

a way to make designs or compositions

14:11

interesting and I realised

14:13

instantly that was where some of my

14:15

landscapes were going wrong, that I was

14:17

missing that element of contrast. And

14:20

over the years I've

14:23

developed that so that the

14:25

way I use it in my artwork and the

14:27

way I teach it is I talk

14:30

about contrast and harmony and

14:33

these are things I have not invented,

14:35

I don't even claim to have invented them but what

14:37

I realised is contrast

14:40

is a great principle for me to make my

14:42

compositions more interesting but

14:45

you can push it so far that it's too much

14:47

and then there's nothing to tie

14:49

it all together. And the way I

14:52

describe it is if

14:54

you go into, you create

14:57

another world in a film say, everything

15:00

has to harmonise and fit

15:02

together to make that world,

15:05

you can have something strange

15:07

happen in it if it all fits together

15:09

and seems like that is a world that

15:11

works. So when we're making a painting,

15:14

we're

15:14

kind of making a world that works

15:17

together and

15:18

then putting some things in that surprise

15:20

you and just what

15:22

you said about in design, it can't be

15:24

too surprising because then it's clashy and it

15:27

can't be not surprising, it can't be all

15:29

harmonious because then we'll walk

15:31

straight past it without even looking. And

15:34

so that's how I now think about them

15:36

which I always feel, being totally

15:38

honest, is a bit amateurish and not

15:42

because I haven't got the knowledge

15:45

that I feel like people who went to graphic

15:47

design school or interior

15:49

design, any design

15:51

discipline, I feel like

15:53

when you speak about

15:54

it, you have this grounding to it.

15:57

Mine is have

16:00

these two things and that's what I constantly

16:02

look at in my paintings. Oh it's gone

16:04

too much this way,

16:06

it's gone too much that way, keep bringing

16:08

it back. Lots of contrasting elements

16:11

now it's too contrasty, let me

16:13

bring some harmony

16:14

back in. So for example,

16:17

harmony usually for me will

16:19

be in the colour. I'll usually make

16:21

sure that the colour palette is

16:23

consistent throughout and

16:25

then there'll just be a couple of little surprises.

16:28

But if I keep that consistency

16:31

out then whatever I do with shapes

16:33

and sizes and lines

16:35

and

16:36

it will hang together within the

16:38

consistent story

16:40

that I'm telling with colour. If

16:42

I have contrasty colour,

16:44

contrasty shapes, contrasty marks then

16:47

it's just too much for me anyway

16:49

for what I want.

16:51

I think a lot of this comes back to clarity

16:54

doesn't it? And when you're talking about

16:56

having too many things in there and

16:59

it being in a muddle it's

17:01

because there is no clarity and this

17:03

is always the conversation between you as

17:06

the painter and the viewer

17:10

and what it is that you want to say.

17:12

And you could look at some paintings

17:15

like, top of my head, Thinking of Basquiat,

17:18

you know they're not composed

17:22

with particular weighting

17:24

in different areas. Like the whole surface

17:27

of the painting is covered in many

17:29

ways with quite similar work. So

17:33

it's a very different approach to the design

17:35

of the painting but what that actually does

17:37

then is it's almost like you're

17:39

not distracted by a really strong

17:42

design. You're really looking at the elements

17:44

and you're looking at the colours and

17:47

you're looking at actually the story that he's trying

17:49

to tell within the shapes that he's chosen. It's

17:52

not about, let's

17:55

say you know with a Rothko piece where he's

17:57

really refined it down and the

18:01

shapes are kept so simple that

18:03

really all you're looking at is

18:06

the proportion of shapes and the

18:08

way that those colours vibrate against

18:10

each other. And by keeping it that

18:12

pure, that has a really

18:15

strong kind of emotional resonance, so

18:17

that's what he's aiming for with you. So

18:19

it comes down to your intention, doesn't it?

18:22

Well, in that sense, I think a lot of it does come

18:24

down to your personality, and I think that's

18:26

why I have a problem with those

18:29

kind of set

18:32

pieces of design or

18:34

composition. And I do think that there is

18:36

a place for learning about those, and

18:40

then there is a place for moving on from that

18:42

and deciding what you want to do with that information.

18:46

It's like learning

18:48

anything, is it? Like learning a piece of music or learning

18:50

piano or learning a language. You've got

18:53

to do the exercises, and

18:56

then you get to freewheel it. And

18:58

in terms of this question, I guess

19:01

that both of you know it's instinctive or intuitive,

19:05

you will have a different instinctive response

19:08

than I will to what you're doing

19:10

in your work, and what

19:12

I'm doing in my work. And

19:14

there might be, and even me within

19:16

my own work, there have been stages

19:19

where I have been playing with

19:21

very different design considerations

19:24

than I'm playing with now. What

19:26

I want to play with now is something where

19:30

it's much simpler,

19:31

it's not as bold, there's not

19:33

as much contrast, so that

19:36

you look at other things within the painting.

19:38

And

19:38

that's what you get to play with. And that's where I

19:40

think contrast is such a powerful

19:42

idea because

19:45

when you say contrast, people think

19:47

you're saying have lots of contrast. I'm

19:50

saying

19:51

have,

19:52

just like you said with Roscoe, he's

19:54

taken all the other things away

19:57

that he could have been contrasty with like

19:59

Marx and the other things.

19:59

textures

20:00

and made it really basic.

20:03

I have one shape that's bigger than another

20:05

so it's not

20:08

even and then I have I want

20:10

you to look at the colour and that

20:12

is because I've taken everything else away

20:14

you'll feel the colour so much more

20:16

than if all this other stuff was going on. Whereas

20:19

with Basquack who I'm a bit obsessed

20:22

with at the moment I just bought two books which

20:24

I cannot stop going through. He's

20:28

not obsessed with that as a consideration

20:30

at all I don't think and yet there's

20:34

so much contrast in his work as well

20:36

so he'll never have he'll have his say his

20:39

naive figures but he won't

20:41

have three the same size in a row

20:43

and he won't have the

20:46

same size writing in the background

20:48

all the time it will vary and move and

20:50

naturally it has a design that's

20:53

exciting to look at. I don't

20:55

always believe that every artist

20:57

is consciously doing that stuff

20:59

although I think lots are.

21:02

Or consciously doing it thinking about

21:05

composition I mean not going is

21:07

my composition perfect but it's the thing

21:09

which you recognise

21:10

when you've got some experience. Yeah

21:13

what I need to do Monet must

21:15

have thought I need to make that water lily

21:17

smaller than that one because of the moment they're

21:20

all the same size and that's making

21:22

it boring.

21:24

So I love this

21:26

when what I try and teach people

21:28

at the later stages of our courses

21:31

yes contrast is great for

21:33

interest

21:33

but

21:35

if you want say you're painting

21:37

to feel very calm and peaceful

21:39

and quiet

21:40

you're not going to do that with very strong

21:43

value contrast that's going to have the opposite

21:45

effect. So it's not

21:47

about making things contrast it's

21:50

about what you said understanding

21:52

what contrast does and

21:54

then manipulating it to get the

21:57

effect that you're looking for.

22:00

And that is where it's

22:02

not always instinctive for me.

22:05

I might have to think if I'm trying

22:07

to create a particular feeling, I

22:10

might have to step back and say, you know why

22:13

it's not feeling like that? Because it's gone too

22:15

far this way or too

22:17

far that way.

22:19

So it sometimes is instinctive

22:21

and intuitive, but it often I

22:24

do have to look and see what I've done

22:26

wrong, so to speak.

22:28

And I think those wrong routes as well,

22:31

they're an important part of the journey because

22:33

sometimes this

22:36

has happened to me in paintings before, like I've

22:38

made the beginning marks, maybe with something,

22:41

and I often go, well I used to, I'm

22:43

not sure I'm doing it so much anymore interestingly, go

22:46

quite high contrast at the beginning. And

22:49

I think because of that inherent

22:51

sense of design training, I can

22:54

kind of put them in the right place and it feels balanced.

22:57

And then I can look back and think, well that's

22:59

kind of done now. Yeah. Like

23:02

where do I go from there? But the painting

23:04

is thin still. Like it's,

23:07

it's like everything's in the right

23:09

place. It's strong because I might

23:11

have been doing like navy blue or

23:13

dark on a white gesso background.

23:17

But there's no depth of

23:19

substance to it. So quite

23:22

often I deliberately

23:24

put things in the wrong place so that I have to

23:26

work my way back from them. Yeah.

23:30

Because it's that kind of adjustment

23:33

and change that gives a

23:35

painting its history that for me is

23:37

interesting. And that's why

23:39

I

23:40

struggle with, I mean

23:42

I'm obsessed when people say, oh yeah, you know, I

23:45

can do a painting and get it done in an hour

23:48

or a morning or a day. I'm like, I

23:50

want to do that. Like

23:53

that sounds to me like

23:55

it would be very satisfying.

23:59

But would it be?

23:59

I don't know. So we just approach things

24:02

in different ways, you see. There is a reason why I

24:04

don't do that. I like

24:06

finding my route to the design

24:08

of the painting through the process of doing

24:10

it. And for me, that means sometimes deliberately

24:12

doing it wrong. But I think you do have

24:15

to know, you know, when it feels

24:18

right, and also know what

24:21

you're aiming for in design terms. So I'm just

24:23

looking up ahead of me a page

24:26

that I've torn out of the magazine,

24:29

which has got,

24:31

I don't know if they're charcoal drawings,

24:33

but they're big. They're like

24:35

one and a half meters tall, charcoal

24:37

drawings in a frame, and it's from an

24:40

interior magazine. And

24:42

there are two of them, and they're

24:44

almost like reverse images of

24:46

each other in terms of the black and white. And

24:49

each one is a figure deliberately

24:52

standing very centrally in

24:54

this

24:54

space,

24:55

with very high contrast, just black and white,

24:58

figure central.

25:01

That's a design or compositional decision

25:04

that makes sense for that piece. I

25:07

don't feel that's ever a design

25:09

or compositional decision that makes

25:12

sense in my work, because I don't want you just looking at one thing. I

25:15

want you looking at everything. So you've got

25:17

to know

25:17

what it is you want the viewer to do and why

25:20

you're doing that painting.

25:22

And then you choose the design. You

25:24

go with the design,

25:25

what suits.

25:27

Yeah,

25:27

because people will sometimes say, well,

25:30

should I have a focal point?

25:32

And if, should you have one focal

25:34

point? Who

25:37

knows? Should you? The question is,

25:39

what's it about? And maybe

25:42

you should, as you said, with the person in the middle, and maybe it won't

25:44

be in the middle. Maybe

25:46

you're painting a floral

25:48

in

25:49

a vase, and you

25:52

put the flowers, if you put the flowers

25:55

in the vase right in the middle of the painting, that says one thing. If

25:57

you move the vase, you can do it.

25:59

of flowers off right to the

26:02

side and have an empty table with a vase

26:04

of flowers and maybe you have it

26:06

from further away, that's got a

26:08

totally different feeling already even

26:10

before you start with colour and tone.

26:13

You could make that feel quite ominous if

26:15

you used very darks and lights and

26:18

blues and greens and made it

26:20

feel cold. That vase

26:22

of flowers could turn into something quite

26:25

eerie the way you compose

26:26

it.

26:28

Same if you want

26:30

us to just look at one red rose

26:32

amongst all these flowers then that might, yes

26:35

you might want a focal point and you might want to

26:37

draw us to that but you might

26:39

want us to look at all the flowers and you might want to

26:41

fill the frame with the flowers

26:43

in which case you won't want

26:45

to make them all really vibrant

26:48

and strong because it will be too much but

26:50

we might though. I wouldn't

26:53

want to, you might want to but you

26:55

could have little, five

26:57

focal points around the flowers where

26:59

we are drawn to look so you move

27:02

us around everything. So

27:04

it really is about, it all

27:06

comes back to intention doesn't it? Well

27:08

it's understanding

27:10

how it works

27:11

and then knowing what you want to do with

27:14

it to

27:15

make the decision and that takes time.

27:18

So

27:18

coming back to this question because I think it

27:20

is an interesting one. If we're talking about

27:22

design basically meaning

27:25

the visual areas

27:27

or shapes that you have in

27:29

your painting which doesn't necessarily

27:32

mean a triangle or a square or you

27:34

know but the visual

27:36

areas or shapes that you have that make up

27:39

your painting and the

27:41

contrast that allows you to see them either

27:44

boldly or more subtly

27:46

if that's design. Where does line

27:48

fit in? Because line

27:51

is a

27:52

shape, it's a very thin shape

27:56

but it does play a slightly

27:58

different role for me.

27:59

anyway. It's

28:01

interesting that this person's thought

28:03

that our views of lines how do

28:05

you use line?

28:08

Often for me that

28:10

it's a slight hint at

28:13

realism

28:15

so in my abstract landscapes

28:17

the line might hint at a stone

28:19

wall there

28:23

might just be faint marks

28:25

that look like stone walls there might be

28:28

faint marks that look like fence posts

28:31

or grasses and

28:33

then everything else might be very abstract.

28:37

In the current self-portrait

28:40

work that I'm doing

28:41

the lines I love

28:44

drawing I love drawing

28:46

I

28:46

still love it I love the look

28:49

of drawing so I like to

28:51

contrast paint application

28:53

loose paint application with quite

28:55

precise drawn lines I really

28:58

like that contrast.

29:00

I don't do it very successfully always but

29:02

that's what I really would love to get to so

29:04

at the moment in these self-portraits

29:07

I have some drawn hands and some drawn

29:09

feet that are part of the composition

29:12

and then there'll be a lot of loose paint and ink

29:14

and other things on there.

29:18

So I think that's what they're

29:20

referring to when they talk

29:22

about line. The other way I think

29:25

I use it is it's another contrasting

29:27

thing so if I've got lots of

29:30

loose paint just having a

29:32

line a thin line a thick line

29:35

different types of line is a nice different

29:38

thing that our eye can latch onto and go oh

29:40

that's interesting that's I've not seen

29:42

that but I do like

29:45

my lines to kind of come in

29:47

and out of things I don't like

29:49

when there's if I'm going to draw a hand I don't

29:52

like the whole hand being drawn there I want

29:54

it to be mostly

29:56

disguised and just be a hint so

29:59

I think that's how I use

30:02

it.

30:03

Yeah

30:04

and I think when you're talking about

30:06

painting like that and then having the

30:09

linear elements of something that's a more

30:11

recognisable and precise form,

30:14

it's important to know that that's where

30:16

we're going to look like because it's

30:19

more immediately accessible

30:21

for our

30:22

brain to understand so that's where we'll look first.

30:25

That's maybe why I don't like it being fully

30:27

defined actually

30:29

because if it's right there's a clearly

30:31

drawn hand and a mushy

30:34

face you're going to look at the clearly drawn

30:37

hand so it's finding the balance where

30:39

it starts to just be something

30:41

you notice later.

30:43

And also where that happens, where

30:45

that point of distinction is within your

30:47

work,

30:49

where you lay it out or where you place

30:51

it or where you design it on your painting

30:54

is important.

30:57

That is a conscious consideration.

31:00

That part is, it could be

31:02

intuitive but it is also a conscious, like

31:04

if you have a painting and you have as

31:06

you say three hands in different formations

31:09

along the middle of the painting, that's

31:12

going to be a very different feel to

31:14

it than a painting that's got them existing

31:17

in other places where it feels like there might be a

31:19

whole figure coming out of these abstract marks.

31:23

It is a conscious decision.

31:25

And I really get that in one of the

31:27

pictures I put on Instagram I had

31:29

put for my liking too much

31:32

of my face in, too many features,

31:34

it was too much of a drawing and

31:38

I just put work in progress on Instagram

31:41

anyway it's not to be finished but lots of people were

31:43

like oh I love that one it looks just like you. I'm

31:45

like no that's going to get obliterated again

31:47

because to me it felt

31:50

just what you said because it was clearly drawn,

31:53

I didn't have the words for it but now you've said

31:55

it, because it was clearly drawn

31:57

that's all you looked at and the rest of it was

31:59

disappearing. and I don't want that. So

32:01

I'm battling at the moment with drawing

32:04

and painting and trying to

32:06

find my way to where I'm happy with

32:09

enough of a hint that it's interesting

32:11

but not too much that you only stare at the

32:13

real bits.

32:15

So what about for you?

32:17

Because obviously in a way

32:19

I feel like line has

32:21

changed a

32:22

bit for you because when I first found

32:24

your work it was quite different than now.

32:27

I was just thinking that, bearing

32:29

in mind the time that's passed between this

32:32

question coming in and what I'm

32:34

doing now but I think almost in the last

32:37

set of work I have deliberately tried

32:39

not to use line but initially

32:42

for me it was a part of crossing over

32:45

from drawings that I would

32:47

have done out in the landscape for

32:49

one thing and a

32:52

kind of physical question of like

32:54

with a material shift and with a scale shift

32:56

how do I get that same feeling in a painting

33:00

that I've got in a drawing?

33:01

Because it's on a very

33:03

different scale

33:04

and you've got a lot of other things

33:06

going on. When you draw a line that's just a drawing,

33:08

it's just a mark or pencil mark or that's

33:11

all you've got to look at so you can see it. As

33:14

soon as you're painting you've got texture,

33:16

you've got colour, you've got brush

33:18

marks, you've got usually a lot more space

33:21

so anything linear is much smaller

33:23

within that space so it's a

33:25

very different set of

33:27

situations to think how

33:30

is this line going to have the

33:32

impact that I want it to have

33:34

or not to have and the answer

33:37

is usually not just to put more on because

33:39

that makes things more of a muddle

33:42

but scale, line

33:45

and scale is a tricky thing when you

33:47

start painting larger and

33:49

so I think my more

33:51

recent paintings I've deliberately tried

33:54

to avoid using line because

33:57

there were certain stage

34:00

where I felt it was becoming a

34:02

little bit too reliable. And

34:05

I wanted to explore something

34:08

different and because it has that definition, as

34:10

soon as you put lines in, that's

34:13

what you look at. I use

34:15

them to cross spaces so they're directional.

34:17

I use

34:19

them to reference movement, often

34:22

air, wind. I

34:26

use a line,

34:28

I had a phase definitely where I used

34:31

the line created by paints dripping

34:35

very consciously. The

34:37

line that was created not by

34:40

me but often quite controlled.

34:42

But of course that's a straight

34:45

rigid line, that's not a drawn curved line.

34:47

I don't like curves, I'm not very good

34:49

with curves. I like

34:51

lines to be direction and movement

34:54

and have corners.

34:56

It's funny that's where I struggle.

34:58

So I always admire that in

35:01

your paintings or when you used to

35:03

do a lot of directional line in the abstract

35:06

landscape.

35:07

I loved it but if I tried it I'd

35:09

have to get rid of it again. Be like no

35:11

it don't feel right because I can't

35:13

make that feel right. I

35:16

can make

35:17

down lines feel okay.

35:20

If they're coming from the sky down

35:22

I can manage that but for some reason

35:24

that didn't

35:24

work for me. And

35:27

this is where I

35:28

think when we see

35:30

what someone else is doing in design it's

35:32

good to try it if you want to.

35:35

Just to find out that either

35:37

oh yeah that fits me or no that really

35:39

doesn't fit me. Because you're not copying. If

35:41

it fits you you'll find your own way

35:44

with it anyway. But often

35:47

what you like in someone else's paintings

35:49

doesn't actually work for you when you

35:52

try it. No

35:53

and the other thing is lines

35:56

are

35:58

created in a very

35:59

So we've been talking about lines

36:02

that are created consciously and deliberately

36:04

as a form of drawing. But of course,

36:06

lines also exist wherever you have an edge.

36:09

So

36:10

that is a line.

36:14

And I think that that's something

36:17

that often catches people out. They're

36:19

thinking perhaps about the patches

36:22

of their painting and where

36:25

that join is between two areas,

36:27

particularly if it's a sharp edge or

36:30

if it's a messy edge. Like what are your edges

36:33

like between the spaces? Where are they

36:35

soft? Where are they sharp?

36:37

Because again, that will be a point of contrast that

36:40

people will see, notice

36:43

and can get you stuck in a certain place

36:45

rather than it's just

36:48

that you just need to be aware of it. You just need to be

36:50

aware of it.

36:52

Yeah. So the thing that really draws

36:54

attention

36:55

is anything text, anything

36:59

with readable words. Back to the definition thing

37:01

you see. Yeah. Anything to do with a face, we'll

37:04

see it. And that's why often in

37:06

abstract paintings people go, oh, it looks like a person.

37:08

It looks like a face because we're

37:10

designed to find eyes,

37:13

other people, things

37:16

that are hunting us. Anything that

37:18

we need to pay attention to, which is

37:20

text these days. It

37:22

would have been the detail of something moving,

37:26

but now it's text. So yeah, where you put

37:28

your text, watch it. I

37:30

can remember when I first had a

37:32

painting in a group exhibition, the curator,

37:35

it was just a local group exhibition

37:38

and she came over and I was using

37:41

collage text and then I

37:43

was sanding it so you could hardly read it. And it was

37:45

as part of a stone wall. It was like

37:48

making up the texture

37:48

of the stone wall.

37:50

And this lady said, oh, what

37:52

would be really great if you

37:54

made that text to be something meaningful

37:56

about the role of farmers in

37:58

the local landscape? and the whatever,

38:01

I don't know. And I said, oh, actually,

38:04

no, because for me, it's important,

38:07

you can't read it. I really want it to be mysterious.

38:09

So you try and get closer and then you can't read it.

38:11

And she went, oh, okay

38:13

then. And she got really offended and

38:16

walked

38:16

off because I wasn't taking her

38:18

advice. But

38:20

if you want to make a point like

38:22

that, yes, make the text readable, because

38:24

we will read any text. We will

38:26

go for it and look for it. But

38:29

actually, I really have always liked

38:31

that idea of just distressing

38:33

it or confusing it enough that it

38:37

makes you look at it and then

38:39

you can't quite make sense of it. So

38:41

often I'll hand dry on my paintings

38:44

and then cover

38:44

some of it over. So what I've written doesn't

38:47

quite make sense. You can't quite piece

38:49

together what it

38:50

once said. I don't know why I like that, but

38:53

I like that. And I've always done that. But

38:55

yes, if you collage on a

38:57

lovely text from a newspaper or a magazine

39:00

and you don't do

39:01

something with it, we're gonna stare at that and we're not

39:03

gonna see anything else.

39:05

And that's the important thing here, isn't it? Is

39:07

that it's another area where

39:09

you get to push it. Like

39:12

the piece that I bought last week from somebody,

39:14

he had a little block of very deliberately

39:16

legible, readable text. And it's

39:19

right up, sort of on the top

39:21

on a kind of awkward corner. And

39:24

I like the awkwardness of it.

39:27

So, you

39:29

know, if it was in a composition book,

39:31

this is how to do composition, probably wouldn't

39:33

be in there. But I like that

39:36

deliberate

39:37

awkwardness of it. Yeah.

39:40

And that's, again,

39:42

it's one of those things that it's important

39:44

to recognize in yourself

39:46

what you like, pay attention

39:48

to why you're liking things that

39:51

you see in other people. And it's

39:53

hard to do in your own work.

39:55

But I think if this is something

39:57

that you want to explore, area

40:00

where collage is so helpful

40:03

because you do get to do the thing that I was talking

40:05

about at the beginning of move things

40:07

round and actually you don't even have

40:10

to stick them down if you don't want to.

40:12

You know you can move them,

40:14

take a photograph, move them and

40:16

use two pieces

40:19

of card cut in L's to make crops. Move

40:22

the shapes around and give yourself shapes

40:25

that are contrasting

40:27

in scale, shape, size,

40:30

a bunch of lines and you

40:33

can create an exercise yourself where you cut things

40:35

out of black paper, grey paper and white paper

40:38

or

40:38

all

40:40

low contrast paper

40:43

and do some exercises for yourself

40:45

and notice what do you like. Do you like it where

40:47

it gets busy? Do you like it where there's tension

40:50

at the edge? Do you like it where things are settled

40:52

in the middle? Yeah

40:55

and it's even if you get a

40:57

photograph from a magazine for example you

40:59

know cut out all the objects from it and try

41:01

and position them in a different place to something

41:03

that feels more satisfying to you and

41:06

I think that collage is a really

41:09

helpful way to learn what

41:11

you like compositionally before you get

41:13

into the muddle of trying to do it with

41:15

paint.

41:17

Yes one of my favorite

41:19

things to do in my sketchbook if I'm just playing

41:21

around is to take a

41:23

piece of a random piece of collage

41:25

paper something really ugly

41:28

or something that isn't special

41:30

in any way, stick it down on a sketchbook

41:32

page and then make a composition

41:35

out of it so it looks good like

41:37

to find

41:40

a way to compose it so that I feel good

41:42

about it. Can't always do it because sometimes

41:44

it's

41:44

just so horrible that I can't

41:45

fix it sometimes I have to paint over it but

41:48

that is a nice exercise and

41:50

when I told that to Jane Davis some

41:53

people might know Jane in up in Vermont

41:55

and she said oh I do the same thing but I

41:58

try and deliberately make it as horrible as possible.

41:59

as possible

42:00

as an exercise, which is another

42:02

fun one. So take something and

42:05

try and put something as clashy and wrong

42:07

as possible with it, because sometimes

42:09

by trying

42:10

to make it as horrible as

42:13

possible,

42:14

you actually make something exciting that

42:17

you can take forward, because

42:19

you surprise yourself with not trying to make

42:21

it balanced and nice. So

42:24

yeah, I think it's just about experimenting,

42:26

isn't it? Having fun and trying things

42:28

out and seeing, I do always

42:31

emphasize to people what we've been saying that

42:33

it is about what you like in the end, just

42:36

what you said about the

42:37

one you bought that doesn't actually fit

42:40

any of the principles you would think it should

42:42

fit, but you love it.

42:44

In the end, someone else will if you do.

42:46

So it's finding what you love.

42:50

You just have to understand these things we're

42:53

talking about, because if you do put drawn

42:55

face and a big piece of text,

42:57

people will stare at those things and

43:00

you need to

43:00

understand that. But if that's what you want, that's fine. Yeah.

43:03

Yeah.

43:04

It's tricky because it's quite a hard

43:06

thing to talk about without showing

43:09

it. Showing any visual examples

43:12

like we were saying, I put

43:14

something down and then try and make it work. I

43:16

can imagine that there might be, wait, but what do you mean

43:18

make it work? Maybe I'll do a YouTube

43:21

video. So

43:24

for me, it's often a question of

43:27

looking at maybe extremes of balance.

43:29

Have I got spaces that are calm?

43:32

Where am I looking? It can be very small

43:34

bits that are

43:37

either very high contrast or much more

43:39

intense with color. I've been doing a lot of collages

43:41

in my sketchbook recently that are very muted,

43:44

very gentle backgrounds. And then there's a tiny,

43:47

tiny, tiny bit of something very bright in there.

43:50

And

43:51

for me, collage is very

43:53

often a way where I explore an

43:56

idea a long way before it hits

43:58

my painting. a plan

44:00

for a painting, not as a deliberate thing, but

44:03

it's where it's easier for me

44:05

just to instinctively pick

44:07

something up from a pile of magazine

44:09

colours or pages and

44:12

play with how it suits me and

44:15

what I'm noticing and what I like. And

44:18

then often it comes out in paintings, you know, maybe even

44:20

a year later. But

44:23

it's a really

44:23

great way to explain. Do

44:25

you remember that exercise that we

44:27

did? This is a fun thing to do if you've got friends.

44:29

Do you remember that exercise we did on that drawing

44:32

course up in Yorkshire? Yes,

44:34

you got that. So we

44:36

had two, people were

44:38

in a group, eight people in a group,

44:41

and we had a large sheet of

44:43

white paper and then we had a sheet of black

44:46

paper and they had to tear the

44:48

paper up into the black paper

44:50

into different, as many

44:52

different shapes as they could. So

44:55

long thin shapes, round shapes,

44:57

square shapes, different sizes. So they got their

44:59

own different things to start

45:02

with. And then you had to take it in turns.

45:05

Each person had to put down a

45:07

black shape on the white and

45:09

then the next person had to put down another

45:12

black shape which helped

45:14

or disrupted the composition. So

45:16

it was a kind of collaborative

45:19

thing to create a composition

45:22

out of these super high contrast shapes. And

45:25

what was so interesting was the discussion, how

45:27

people had different intentions for where

45:29

they wanted the composition to go. So

45:31

there was a little bit of battling going on. Yeah, it

45:34

was a fun thing to do.

45:36

Yeah, you're doing it and you're thinking, oh, she's

45:38

just ruining my composition.

45:42

It's

45:42

interesting to notice where actually you do have a

45:44

plan when someone else comes in and you're like, oh,

45:46

yeah, so that way. So

45:48

we do all have a sense of it.

45:50

Okay,

45:56

so what's inspired this week? I

45:58

have something to recommend.

45:59

which is I've been watching on iPlayer

46:02

just finished four episodes of

46:04

Boiling Point

46:07

which is a drama set in a restaurant.

46:09

When I mentioned it to Alice she said, who

46:11

did you see the film? And I didn't because I

46:13

think it's the follow-on to

46:16

a film.

46:17

Was the film on TV too?

46:19

No the film was only in cinemas

46:22

and what was interesting in the film was

46:24

it is set

46:25

in real time

46:28

in a working restaurant and the

46:31

entire film was done in one take. Yeah.

46:34

One moving camera take,

46:37

no cuts, no clips, a moving

46:39

camera working through

46:41

an active restaurant

46:44

with everybody having to get everything right,

46:47

cameras moved, lines said.

46:49

I think so much work in a film.

46:51

Absolutely

46:52

extraordinary.

46:54

Yeah. And now it's a series

46:57

yeah. The drama doesn't do that

47:00

but I can see how it gets that feeling

47:03

actually because what I thought when it ended

47:05

was I feel like I was dropped

47:07

into another world

47:09

that actually exists. I feel

47:11

like those people are out there now still

47:14

doing all that stuff every day and I

47:17

just

47:17

got to be part of it for a little while. It's

47:19

very real life

47:21

but of course it's more interesting than real life

47:24

because real life would be quite boring to watch

47:26

but it's very structured

47:28

as a drama but not in a way that you notice

47:30

it's happening. You kind of don't see the men

47:34

behind the curtain, you're just in it and

47:36

you really and if anyone does

47:38

try it I would say the first episode

47:41

you've got to give yourself time to really get

47:42

into it. You've got to go to episode two because by

47:44

episode two I

47:46

was just so like oh my god

47:49

I want to live with these people forever I want to

47:51

keep watching this all the time. It's fantastic

47:53

I loved it and such a

47:56

so beautifully written every

47:58

that I always admire.

47:59

the artistry, like every character

48:02

is beautifully delineated

48:05

and every actor is doing their

48:07

absolute best work and yeah

48:09

it's just brilliant.

48:11

And I felt the same about the woman in

48:13

the wall which was

48:16

again it's on BBC and I think in the States

48:18

it's going to be on Paramount because I checked for somebody

48:20

yesterday and it's about

48:23

an extraordinary period in Ireland's

48:26

history and

48:29

I got to episode five and

48:31

when it finished, like the first

48:33

episodes were about, this is a bit weird, I'm not

48:35

quite sure what's going on here, and

48:38

I got to episode five and I thought

48:40

the writing, the

48:43

acting, the way they have chosen

48:46

to tell this whole story

48:49

is the most extraordinary thing. Just

48:52

as you say, just complete appreciation

48:55

for it, it's just mind-blowing

48:57

and on a very

48:59

different level but the same, like

49:03

from high level to in the gutter,

49:05

right? Okay, can't

49:08

believe I'm admitting this that loud. In

49:10

my procrastination effort I

49:12

started watching Married at First Sight

49:15

UK. Oh,

49:16

oh I could, I

49:19

can trust you because I watched My

49:22

Mum Your Dad on ITV.

49:25

The reason that I'm bringing it up now

49:28

is and how it relates to art is, and

49:30

you, like we know these things are going

49:32

to be addictive and we also

49:35

know, like you start, like literally started watching

49:37

the first episodes of Women in the Wall thinking, what's

49:39

going on here? Okay, her accent's

49:41

good but like where is this going to go? Started

49:44

watching Married at First Sight thinking, why am I watching

49:47

this? You know, these are people, okay interesting

49:49

idea for a series

49:52

but you know, they're people I don't know, I don't

49:54

really care about. By

49:56

episode five I really care.

49:58

Like I really care.

50:01

I'm really in it. I'm really invested. And

50:03

it did make me think how often

50:06

we

50:08

risk giving up episode one or two

50:10

of our own work.

50:12

Rather than getting to episode

50:14

four or five where you're invested and

50:17

you're really keen to know what happens next. That's

50:19

a really good way of turning

50:22

trash TV into a moral lesson.

50:27

You're welcome. My mom, your dad. I

50:30

totally got so invested that by

50:32

the, it's like some kids bring their moms

50:34

and dads to meet each other in a house and then

50:36

they have to fall in love. And

50:39

I got so invested that when it finished, I

50:41

watched my mom, your dad Australia.

50:44

Because I was like, okay, I

50:46

want to keep seeing this happen.

50:49

Welcome to Art Juice, your highbrow

50:51

art discussion.

50:52

So

50:56

on that note, I think I'll finish for this

50:58

week and

50:59

wish you all a very creative week

51:02

and we will see you next time. And

51:05

I do actually have something a little bit highbrow

51:07

next time. So

51:09

if you're listening, Christie. We feel

51:12

like we dragged you into the gutter. Really

51:14

sorry. You will be

51:16

raising the game.

51:17

So yeah,

51:19

that's coming next week. All right. Well,

51:22

we'll see you next time. Okay. Bye bye.

51:24

Bye.

51:57

Bye.