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Hello, listeners. I've got a special

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surprise for you this week. Instead of

0:33

doing our typical Friday newscast, I

0:36

am sharing a recent discussion that I

0:38

had with author Damian Dibben

0:40

about his latest novel, The Color

0:42

Storm. Set in the cutthroat art

0:44

world of Renaissance Venice, the Color

0:47

Storm is all about the search for

0:49

a new color. The daring young

0:51

painter, Georgionet, is in the fight

0:53

for his life to beat his rivals and find

0:55

it first. A searing tale of

0:57

creation, ambition, rivalry, and

0:59

passion out one of the most seismic turning

1:02

points in history, and it is filled with

1:04

characters both familiar and new,

1:06

and it is full of unexpected turns.

1:09

It is an excellent read and one that art

1:11

lovers are sure to enjoy. Damian

1:13

Dibben is the best selling offer of tomorrow

1:16

and the internationally acclaimed history

1:18

keepers series. He went to art school

1:20

to study theater Dibben, which led him first

1:22

to become an actor and then to become

1:24

a screenwriter. Adapting books for

1:26

the screen in Hollywood inspired him to turn

1:28

his hand to writing his own books.

1:31

His hugely successful series The History

1:33

Keepers was written for children and

1:35

young

1:35

adults. And his subsequent novels

1:38

tomorrow and the color storm are

1:40

for adults. He

1:41

founded the writing and research for this novel

1:43

so revelatory, that he returned to

1:45

his studio to make a collection of artworks

1:48

and furniture inspired by the book.

1:50

So check out this episode, you will not

1:52

be disappointed. Damian

2:01

Dibben, thank you so much for being here today.

2:04

What inspired you to write this book? Because

2:06

I know that you have an interest in history,

2:09

your other books, your background, but

2:11

what about this one and kind of digging into the

2:14

art world was inspiring or

2:16

interesting to you? I'll

2:17

just quickly say the

2:19

book is what it's about. It's all about

2:21

it's set in the art world, the renaissance. It's all

2:23

about search. For a new color.

2:26

And our kind of leading character

2:28

through it is a painter called Georgi Joni

2:30

who existed and he

2:32

is on the hunt. This new color

2:35

that's newly arrived in Bennett's and

2:37

his search for it gets him into increasingly

2:40

dangerous territory So it's all about

2:42

art and ambition and the

2:45

renaissance and about color. And

2:48

so as we leave on the world, So

2:50

with that in mind, the original inspiration

2:52

was actually there were two things that happened

2:55

in the same week as often happens.

2:57

It's like a chemical reaction. And

2:59

the first was I'd seen this

3:01

exhibition at the Royal Academy here in

3:03

London, Georgioni. And

3:05

I knew the name and I knew he

3:07

was quite a pivotal painter,

3:10

but that was all I knew. And then, of course,

3:12

I found that he died very young,

3:14

very much at the start of his career, and

3:16

he would have been with utterly

3:18

in this household name probably hadn't

3:21

lived. So that exhibition

3:23

was fascinating. The painting was fascinating.

3:25

Learning about theniche and painting. Of

3:28

that era because really you

3:31

could say Venetian painting dominated

3:33

the sixteenth century. It took

3:35

over from the florentines in a

3:37

way, which was Gucci and Michael Amsellem.

3:40

George Jonie and Bellini might have started

3:42

it and then Dibben and then Beranese, and

3:45

then in Toretto and epic

3:47

figures and just how Venetian painting

3:49

was so different and so much about

3:51

color and landscape as

3:53

opposed to all being about humans

3:56

and the soul and the body. Much

3:58

more almost impressionistic and

4:01

I found that really fascinating. And I wanted

4:03

to tell his story. At

4:05

the same time, I heard was

4:07

hearing an interview about contemporary

4:10

artist, Dinesh Kapoor, who a British

4:12

artist. And he I

4:14

can't remember what it

4:15

was, but it was around the time that he had

4:17

copyrighted this black

4:20

and the black.

4:21

Oh, yeah. Which is the kind of

4:23

blackest black that has ever been

4:25

there. But I think they've created need

4:27

black one now, but it's it follows up ninety

4:30

nine point nine something percent of

4:32

the light. And he copy

4:34

writes it, so no one else could use Dibben then

4:36

this kind of little war started between

4:38

all these other artists. And then

4:41

someone created something for the pink, his

4:43

pink, and then he wouldn't he kind of

4:45

put on his website available for everyone

4:48

except Nish Kapoor or anyone

4:50

working with Nish Kapoor or anyone who

4:52

even likes Nish Kapoor. And

4:55

it's kind of ridiculous, but it was

4:57

I thought, what if the stakes were that much

4:59

higher? And then, of course, I learned I

5:01

mean, it seems obvious now that I've done

5:03

all research. How incredibly valuable

5:06

pigment was and star color

5:09

the renaissance was ultramarine,

5:12

which is the max size July.

5:15

Which is found was found then

5:17

possibly still now. I don't know. In this

5:19

one place enough, kind of

5:21

spanned in the mountains that only would have

5:23

come through Venice originally and

5:26

it would have been worth more

5:28

than gold. In in sort

5:30

of comparable weight and probably a lot more.

5:32

And so I wanted to imagine

5:34

there was a color even more

5:36

amazing than ultramarine and

5:39

this could be the inspiration.

5:41

This could lead a great success

5:44

of a painting. So the stakes

5:46

got much higher than this war between

5:48

the mutual upon the present day that it

5:50

could go all the way to to

5:52

losing your life in pursuit of a

5:54

color.

5:56

I love that and I agree with you.

5:58

I love the idea of the

6:00

war for the color and the way that you bring

6:02

through this mystery where everyone

6:04

is really I love that you mentioned the big names

6:07

because you weave such

6:09

incredible historical figures

6:11

into the story, not only having

6:13

Giorgione be the hero of the

6:15

story, but also you do bring in

6:17

nods and actual appearances by people

6:20

like Michelangelo in a way that's

6:22

so fun, but it does

6:24

lead you toward that sense of it isn't

6:26

just art, it's never just art

6:28

art is always at the behest of

6:30

something bigger, whether it's to show

6:33

a legacy, whether it's to explain

6:35

emotion, it these are people jobs

6:37

and these are people's lives. Why

6:40

was it jointly that you chose to

6:42

be the central focal point, the

6:44

central historical figure?

6:47

I think part of the reason was

6:49

I like the fact that he was lesser known

6:51

because it's in the same

6:53

way that Amadeus is

6:55

such a brilliant, highopic of notes

6:58

are because it's looking from a very particular

7:00

viewpoint of a much lesser known component.

7:03

But that obviously Sallieri and

7:05

that was not a nice man. Georgia

7:08

is rather amazing. But I like

7:10

the idea of viewing it. So

7:12

you're seeing all those famous figures.

7:14

And this was someone who was living, working

7:16

at the same time, as he said, with Michel Leonardo,

7:19

Rafael Dibben, who was in back your

7:21

journeys. Student. And I love

7:23

the idea examining that world

7:26

and those famous people from a kind

7:28

of more manageable viewpoint. So

7:30

almost those characters are just always

7:32

in the back line, which makes

7:35

them more intriguing and

7:37

adoring and it allows you

7:39

tell their story in

7:42

a way that it just fits in with the time

7:44

that they came from and everything makes

7:46

sense that this incredible current history

7:48

produced to all these people. So it's

7:51

put it all in perspective. And,

7:53

yeah, I it was fascinating because

7:55

as you said, they appear in very, you know,

7:58

pieces here and there. And I

8:00

wanted deliberately, actually, I made

8:02

the meeting with da Vinci he's

8:04

such as kind of an enormous figure

8:07

and art. thought I

8:09

had to really underplay, and he's

8:11

always in he's when they meet,

8:13

he's on the upper side of a canal and it's

8:15

at night and they're talking about the canal and

8:17

Vinci's business almost this silhouette.

8:20

And I just thought that made it more

8:23

intriguing, but the reader really sort

8:25

of made that made it better

8:27

embedded into a kind of

8:29

reality. But Love that.

8:32

But it was very interesting to seeing because

8:34

Leonardo, you just fall in love with

8:37

the more you learn about. Because he

8:39

was such a sort of generous and

8:41

funny and worldly person,

8:43

such a wise person so

8:45

interested in everything. And Michelangelo, on

8:48

the other hand, was just by all accounts

8:50

with this sort of terrible mean

8:53

spirit is always complaining, never

8:55

happy. And it's interesting to

8:57

contrast those two great geniuses

8:59

and how different they work. So you don't have

9:02

to be nice at all to be a genius,

9:04

but it's just an added

9:06

bonuses to you are. That's

9:08

true. I agree with that. No, it's

9:10

really fun because it's evident from

9:12

your storytelling that you did the work,

9:15

the historical research. You seem

9:17

to have really loved to tell

9:19

the stories of these characters, but you also understood

9:21

them. And so I loved those nods

9:24

to the personalities of Miglangelo. Of

9:26

Leonardo, because you're absolutely right,

9:29

Evangelos was a grump and a grouch.

9:31

And Leonardo, I think we think of him as

9:34

so mysterious, but there's so much that

9:36

points to him as being a

9:38

warm, funny person even, which

9:40

I think is really interesting. Oh, absolutely.

9:42

He was quick, Gary. He loved people.

9:45

He loved company. He

9:47

loved ideas. He just just

9:49

the interchange of ideas. Yeah.

9:51

It was an absolutely a lot of people

9:54

that that was went hand in hand with

9:56

this kind of fascination of them and his

9:58

ability to deconstruct

10:00

everything around. Yeah. He

10:01

would

10:01

have been a great person to be that

10:03

next at dinner. Absolutely. And

10:06

I think I feel that way about the way that

10:08

you portray Georgiorno also because

10:11

we know so little about

10:13

him. And I, myself, I'm not a renaissance

10:15

specialist, but I feel like I only

10:17

know about the tempest day we work

10:19

or two off the top of my head,

10:22

but we know so little about him,

10:24

as you mentioned, because he died so young

10:26

and he really didn't leave all

10:29

that much in terms of artwork behind.

10:31

So appreciated the way that you

10:33

were able to imagine

10:36

his story and take us through this

10:38

time period. One of the only things you

10:40

obviously know about George Jonny is because of

10:42

his name, which is basically big George.

10:45

So, you know, it was

10:47

I got the feeling of a very kind of

10:50

a man who was quite physically imposing

10:52

boies with himself. And think

10:54

when you combine that with the

10:56

r, which is so sensitive and

10:59

luxurious, and really takes

11:01

you of these kind of wonderful places that

11:03

you you I don't know. You you make a picture

11:05

of someone that that can only

11:07

be

11:09

can magnetic, I think. It

11:11

also declined. Yes. And

11:14

I found something that I really wanted to ask you

11:16

about that was in a little Q and

11:18

A that you had provided for press

11:20

that you had someone specific in

11:22

mind, an actor when you were writing the

11:24

part of Georgionet. Would you mind sharing

11:26

that with our audiences Yeah. I think I

11:28

guess, I'm glad to say this, but I had actually

11:30

been thinking of Robert Paterson,

11:33

obviously, nicely for me in

11:35

Batman, a British actor.

11:37

And I don't know why he cut he's

11:39

obviously the right age. He's the right build.

11:42

He's got that he's got the right of

11:44

complexity and interesting enough

11:46

because he's with the same agents

11:48

hit me and he I've

11:50

read about the the book

11:52

when it was in manuscript form and has

11:55

asked to read a

11:56

copy. So watch this, but

11:58

That would be amazing. I do want

12:00

to step back for minute just because we've

12:03

talked about actors and movies.

12:05

I want to talk a little bit about your background.

12:08

Because you did not start

12:10

as a fiction

12:11

writer. Is that correct? No.

12:13

Absolutely not. I would not have thought that

12:15

I could write ever.

12:17

I wasn't that good at school

12:19

or English and so on. So I loved it.

12:22

I loved books, but I was

12:24

very much found myself in kind

12:26

of visual arts world. And

12:28

I originally actually trained as

12:31

a set designer. But then, obviously, we

12:33

had to be we did all the art of

12:35

painting and drawing and making of things.

12:38

So yeah. That that was my background.

12:40

So everything starts with physical

12:43

objects. And I still love making

12:45

things, but we might talk about that in a bit. And

12:48

I through one

12:50

thing and another, I started writing

12:52

film scripts and still

12:54

that didn't feel like writing that

12:57

and really where I work here in Hollywood

12:59

for about ten years. But that was

13:02

felt to me like just it wasn't writing. It

13:04

was just giving in construction because it's

13:06

all to do with the final product of the film.

13:08

So literally just giving instructions to have

13:10

to have to be kind of conduct And

13:12

then it was in the process of doing that

13:15

that I started reading, being

13:17

sent books with view to adapt,

13:19

which is not overall. Maybe

13:21

I could actually write a book, and I

13:24

obviously love it because it's a way

13:26

of training all these different areas.

13:29

And I see it as like a book is

13:31

I almost in my head producing

13:33

a movie, which I'm designing

13:36

the clothes off and editing and

13:38

doing the sound. And doing the lighting

13:40

and doing the sets, acting the characters.

13:43

So it's just a way of bringing everything

13:46

together in my head, and it's so satisfying

13:48

to have this one complete kind

13:51

of result of all your

13:53

imagining. And I just absolutely

13:56

love it. Having that background with

13:58

filmmaking in all of these different areas.

14:01

So you mentioned the set design, acting,

14:03

writing, and then you get to perform all

14:05

of those roles internally and

14:07

externally when you write this

14:09

book. I love that. And

14:11

also then, it is also this it

14:14

what is so satisfying is that it then is

14:16

finished product in a way when

14:18

I was a screenwriter, you you

14:20

never have the finished product even

14:22

on the paju times because most films

14:25

that get commissions, they'll never get

14:27

made. But even the ones that do,

14:29

you you feel so removed from it by that

14:32

stage. It's not your finish product.

14:34

It's always very much the direct percentage

14:36

product or even the producers, but

14:39

weirdly never the writers. So

14:41

you don't get that. Final satisfaction

14:44

that they can do with the

14:45

book. We will be right back. Thanks

14:47

for listening. When

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for sponsoring this episode. Moving

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out of your career as a screenwriter, maybe

20:08

in tandem with it. When you began

20:10

writing, you chose I'm thinking especially

20:12

of your history keeper series, which

20:15

is from what I know of it, very

20:17

popular and wonderful that's

20:19

for a younger audience. Can you

20:21

tell me little bit about how that was

20:23

how that came about and how you chose specifically

20:26

to write for younger audiences in

20:28

that case?

20:29

Yes. The answer is simple, really.

20:31

I so history keeps it busy,

20:34

but it's all about it

20:36

starts off anyway about a boy who

20:38

finds out parents have lost in history.

20:40

He then discovered they've been working for the

20:42

secret service for the history people who essentially

20:45

protect the course of history, which

20:47

involves some very physically realized

20:50

time traveling. But it's it's an adventure

20:53

series. It's like that it's almost like a kind

20:55

of young James Bond through history

20:57

as it were. And I the

21:00

reason I started is that genre

21:02

because that is where I

21:04

derived in the film world

21:06

as it were. So I'd originally

21:08

sold a script to Meramex, I

21:10

think, and then it more

21:13

and more I was getting commissioned

21:16

to do what they call family films,

21:18

but sort of films that sort of Pixar or

21:20

Disney would put out. I found myself

21:22

to be very good in that arena and

21:24

of which I was delighted with because

21:27

it really suited me and

21:29

it's probably where most of the money was

21:31

as well. So everything was right about

21:33

it. And for some reason, I thought

21:35

the book world will be exactly the

21:38

same. So I kind of crossed over

21:40

for that reason in that kind of

21:42

genre. And no, I did actually do

21:44

in the end incredibly well from that

21:46

book. It was only when I'd

21:48

started that that I realized there's

21:51

actually this sort. I don't know if it's the same in America,

21:53

but in the UK, there's this with

21:55

snobism about, you know, literature,

21:58

younger people, and which you don't

22:00

get in film. It's almost a complete opposite.

22:03

Some of the pixar films, for

22:05

example, are probably some of the best

22:07

written films of the last twenty

22:10

years, I'd say. So I just couldn't

22:12

understand. And I still don't understand that

22:14

kind of snobism. And then I don't think

22:16

the fact it's snobish

22:19

put people on because I think

22:21

still a portable book, song,

22:23

our children's book. But, yeah,

22:26

you find yourself biting against it,

22:28

okay, me just a bit confused

22:30

by it because I just think stories great

22:33

stories should work for

22:35

all ages and, you know, that

22:38

that shouldn't be put into boxes. But

22:40

again, I do understand the commercial reasons

22:44

that they are. But you just thought

22:46

Harry Potter would have changed everything, but

22:48

it just turned out to me. It just

22:50

went back to how it was after that. Let

22:52

me see what I mean.

22:54

I Dibben. And I am also with you.

22:56

I think I'm very surprised because I would

22:58

have thought a story a good story is a

23:00

good story for everyone really. So

23:02

I'm surprised about that. Did

23:05

that divide between telling

23:07

a story for families versus in

23:10

books versus movies, did any of that

23:12

or did all of that come into play with choosing

23:14

to write? The color

23:15

storm, for example, other books for

23:17

more adult audiences. I

23:19

did. I mean, I did. I wanted to do it

23:22

just because essentially writing books

23:24

was quite new to me. I realized

23:26

that in I enjoyed it so much. And

23:28

I realized that once you start in

23:30

a particular lane, you sometimes

23:32

get stuck there. And I just thought, I don't wanna

23:34

get stuck. I wanna be up

23:36

to right what I want. So it

23:38

seemed right to go to a lot

23:41

more to an adult audience.

23:43

That's definitely with the view of coming back.

23:45

There's a bridge writer who's they're also

23:48

with the same agent as me called Matt Hague,

23:50

and he very much does

23:52

both and finds out I know him a bit,

23:55

and he finds that. That's satisfying

23:57

his idea. Yeah. And I would to be

23:59

involved in northern and actually, another

24:02

term But I I find

24:05

that diminishes what's there is

24:07

this is the term historical fiction,

24:09

which I just makes me

24:11

slightly kinda Sure.

24:14

I just don't see why it's needed.

24:16

I just like, films,

24:18

you know, take a film, like, titanic

24:22

or something. Yeah. You wouldn't necessarily call

24:24

that an historical film. You just

24:26

call it the film. So I don't I feel

24:28

the same with books. Why restrict

24:30

yourself. It's just fiction. It's

24:33

like a great story. Absolutely.

24:36

But

24:37

yet, Sorry, digressing. No,

24:40

bitch. That's an excellent point. And I totally

24:42

agree with you. It's one of those things

24:44

that I feel is a movable line

24:47

to which I don't know that anybody has

24:49

the exact end point of what

24:51

that line is or where it is. It's

24:53

not and contemporary art,

24:55

those boundaries are loose and

24:58

we used to in the museum where I

25:00

previously worked, we used to joke that if

25:02

an artist was dead, then they would be considered

25:04

a modern artist. Or Live,

25:07

they would be contemporary even though that

25:09

is not necessarily true given

25:12

stylistic differences and so

25:14

forth. I feel that way with historical

25:16

fiction, how far back does

25:18

a story have to take place in time

25:21

to be considered historical

25:23

and agree with you. I think those are very

25:25

nondescript lines

25:27

and unnecessary in many

25:29

cases. So when it break when a book

25:31

breaks out of that, you know, those bound

25:33

so it's a book like perfume, which is

25:35

a sort of worldwide on handling it or

25:37

or all fall or something. They

25:40

now once they've broken free of

25:42

it, then they're not thought of as historical

25:44

fiction. They're just thought of as fiction. Yeah.

25:47

I don't know why so little bitches

25:49

just can't be

25:50

pictures, you know. What's the difference?

25:53

It's true. I also understand that

25:55

there are business mechanics, which is very

25:57

much someone else's job. So you

25:59

just have to go with the the way it is at

26:01

the moment. But I just I wouldn't want

26:04

something a term to quote people off.

26:06

That's that's what I

26:08

worry about most. I wouldn't like that.

26:10

It's historical that something Dibben. These

26:13

sorts people would read that anymore.

26:16

I wonder if it's now

26:18

this is a question. I don't know that this actually

26:20

is true or not, but I'm wondering if

26:23

if there's a distinction between

26:25

historical fiction because you have to delve

26:27

so much into the research of understanding the

26:30

time and the time period, like,

26:32

real figures that you're working with. And

26:34

I wanted to ask you a little bit

26:36

about that. Did you I'm assuming

26:38

you went to Venice or did you have to spend

26:41

a lot of time there And what was your

26:43

research process like for understanding

26:46

this era in history and also renaissance,

26:49

Venetian art? And you paint the

26:51

picture, you know, pun intended. So

26:54

that it truly feels like when you're reading

26:56

it, I could so clearly see

26:59

what you're

26:59

describing, and that's a testament to your

27:01

fine writing of it. Right. This is

27:03

This is probably the Firstly, definitely

27:06

was the first place I ever went to abroad.

27:08

I think when I was twelve. And then,

27:10

obviously, I probably love it. And then it's

27:12

such an incredible and it says incredible as

27:14

you think it's gonna be often more

27:17

and it was the place I probably ended up

27:19

going back to more than any other

27:21

And I did feel like up to know it well,

27:23

I stayed there for a few years

27:26

before writing the book. And the

27:28

more, you know, you just start to learn a

27:30

bit and your

27:32

knowledge just grows so quick and

27:34

I I learned about not

27:36

only the importance of the city

27:38

at that time, it was probably the richest

27:40

city on Earth, I would imagine.

27:43

And because of its location, it was

27:45

where everything so much was

27:47

suddenly coming from the east of Europe

27:49

at that point. So much in the kind of

27:51

ideas in the middle, but also

27:54

the kind of physical things, self

27:56

and the spices and the colors, course.

27:58

And this was the time at the beginning of the

28:00

sixteenth century that World Trade was

28:02

absolutely taking off for the first

28:04

time. So ships are suddenly

28:06

sailing around the globe. And at the same

28:09

time, people's mindset was

28:11

also changing because now,

28:14

we're into our fourth decades of

28:16

books being printed and essentially mass

28:18

produced. So knowledge is suddenly

28:20

passing out at the same time as you've

28:23

got this in these goods and information

28:26

coming in, and nearly all of it threaded

28:28

through bonus at that time. So it was

28:30

and there was so there were two things, obviously,

28:32

an an enormous amount of money, but

28:35

also an enormous amount of interest in

28:37

the world and in how things

28:39

work and in science and

28:42

mathematics and geography, all

28:44

aspects and everything became

28:47

an citing topic at that

28:49

time, and then have been absolutely

28:51

thrillingly alive. And

28:54

a small yeah. The when you start that

28:56

kind of research, it just it's so

28:58

easy to accumulate more and

29:00

more because it's all so

29:01

fascinating. And just especially with the Internet

29:03

now, just stock comes with it. I

29:06

imagine that it almost felt like a rabbit hole

29:09

in many cases because it's just such

29:11

an intriguing place and again, these

29:13

intriguing characters that you brought together,

29:15

that was actually something I appreciated that

29:18

I alluded to a little bit earlier where you would

29:20

bring in these big names that

29:22

I would think that even at

29:25

at least in the case of Michelangelo and

29:27

Leonardo, those are names that I think everybody

29:29

knows, maybe people don't know Dibben

29:31

as much, Bellini as much,

29:33

but if you're an art fan

29:35

or an artist in or if you're

29:37

familiar with that world, you would

29:40

certainly know these characters. But

29:42

it's funny because Even as

29:44

a curator and a historian, it's

29:46

almost like I put them all in their individual

29:49

boxes. Michelangelo in

29:51

the Rome box, in the Florence spot. I

29:53

put Lay Arto in similar

29:55

boxes and where I put him over in Milan,

29:58

even though these artists truly

30:00

traveled and they went and they knew each

30:02

other there's works. They were contemporary. Some

30:04

of them were colleagues. Some of them were

30:06

enemies. But I like bring

30:08

them together really showcase

30:11

that this was not a static realm

30:13

and neither was art at this time

30:15

at all. I'm thinking about George

30:18

Jonae or Sortso, I guess, is how I wanna

30:20

refer to him now because that name

30:22

is how he's referred to so much in

30:24

this book. But talking about

30:26

how he went to the Scroggini chapel

30:29

and was copying Jotto works

30:31

from there. Thinking about that spread

30:34

of knowledge and the sharing and

30:36

the curiosity that all of these figures

30:38

had about the art that was created even

30:42

just a century or two beforehand into

30:44

the works that was being created really

30:46

contemporaneously

30:48

is really fascinating. And I think that's

30:50

a wonderful thing that you helped to showcase

30:52

in this book. Yeah.

30:55

It was learning about the

30:57

life of the the painter

30:59

in that time was never start being

31:01

fascinating. How the workshops

31:04

work and get fifty or six apprentices

31:06

in one of these workshops. And they're almost

31:08

like films, studios, and everyone had a

31:10

subtask to do. Everyone moving

31:13

towards this kind of final point of this

31:15

an incredible painting. And

31:17

this was at a time when oil paint

31:19

was still relatively new newly

31:22

being used certainly in Italy. And

31:24

that, of course, brought all this incredible vibrancy.

31:27

And these images

31:29

they were creating would have been more

31:32

lifelike than the real life around

31:34

you, which would probably all be quite brown

31:37

and to be able to have this

31:39

incredible vibrant intense IT.

31:41

It would have been amazing. And, yeah,

31:44

they were all in competition with each

31:46

other. There was all there's a

31:48

section in the book about when we meet

31:50

Michelangelo

31:52

about his physical state, and

31:54

he's been that that

31:55

his in the scene in the book. He's

31:57

been up on the scaffold in in the

31:59

fifteen chapel for two years. And when

32:01

I actually heard what it would have been like

32:03

being up on one of these scaffold, essentially

32:06

miles up in the air terrified at

32:08

all at any given moment that the scaffold

32:11

might collapse and kind of fall to your death.

32:14

Trying to paint in these sort of great, big,

32:16

large areas without having

32:18

any idea. You're not able to go and

32:20

have and look very

32:22

often to see how it's all going. So

32:24

you've really gotta go with your intuition and

32:27

you've got paint dripping in your eyes and

32:29

you've got the fear of the plaster

32:32

kind of sets at the wrong time and the paint

32:34

won't be stable and just

32:36

so much going on. And just that

32:38

example on its own, was illustrated

32:41

how how

32:43

statistical the life of the painter was.

32:45

And how many choices they had to make when

32:48

they they had to decide whether they were gonna

32:50

be on the road or they

32:52

were gonna live somewhere and have

32:54

have a family and you couldn't be

32:56

burned. Because you

32:58

either had to be on the road and go to where

33:00

the commissions were or you had to make

33:02

enough a name of yourself. To be

33:04

able to stay in one place and work in there, which

33:06

is actually a lot of the Venetian. I mean,

33:08

someone like did manage

33:10

to do that. He just he didn't

33:12

travel a lot and just set up in in

33:14

Venice. I really loved that scene that

33:17

you're talking about with Michelangelo because

33:19

I think you even introduced that

33:21

physicality in a way that I

33:24

forgot about at the moment where you're having characters

33:26

say, what's wrong with his eyes? Because

33:28

he would have had that eye, the paint splattering

33:31

down into them, was a shocking

33:33

moment because again, I it's

33:35

almost like he's here in Venice. He's

33:37

away from Rome. You wouldn't have thought that

33:39

that physical essence

33:42

would have followed him in this point

33:44

in his journey, but that's so fascinated

33:46

And it, of course, again, just brings you into

33:48

being able to paint that picture of

33:50

the narration in your head. So I love

33:53

that I want to

33:55

talk a little bit about the creation

33:58

of works of art. And so I

34:00

wanted to ask a little bit because

34:02

you did something really staying in

34:04

that you created some

34:06

furniture and some artworks in tandem

34:09

with making this novel come together.

34:11

And I wanna know a little bit more about that. What

34:13

inspired you to actually

34:16

make works of art and bits of furniture in

34:18

conjunction? Book? And where did you go

34:20

with that? I have just launched the

34:22

collection, damey Dibben furniture

34:25

dot com. And there's a I've

34:27

got sixty objects on there, thirty

34:30

odd pieces of furniture, all of which

34:33

I have mostly

34:36

made from a combination of things. I'll

34:38

start with one element

34:40

that's really beautiful and then I'll

34:42

build the piece found it. Some

34:44

things from scratch and some things I haven't

34:47

done that much too except to maybe change

34:49

the color of them or something. And everything

34:51

is inspired by the book.

34:53

It's incredibly colorful for

34:55

start, but it has that sort of,

34:59

obviously, bellies is used the idea

35:01

of creation, the idea of geometry,

35:04

and all those different themes of

35:06

how workshops work. The

35:08

idea every piece in it is

35:10

like a sort of little bit of escapism.

35:13

For example, there's one piece called life

35:15

you like, which is in this sort of

35:17

famous renaissance Lafus Lasi

35:19

like ultramarine blue,

35:21

and it's actually a cocktail cabinet that

35:23

has got these incredible angel wings

35:26

as doors. And then inside, it's

35:28

lined in this sort of dark blue

35:31

velvet with this Chinese silk

35:34

work, tapestry at the back

35:36

of the cupboard. It's really beautiful. It's

35:38

like there's some jewel box, but it's actually

35:40

for drinks that could use it for something else.

35:43

And the idea of it is it's just it's

35:45

like a little world in itself. It's

35:47

like you escape into the world of the book.

35:50

Renee Son's Venice. You escape

35:52

into the world that this James

35:55

Dibben presents to you. Just looking

35:57

at it. Is like a tiny bit in the sky,

35:59

which is what all pieces of furniture should

36:01

be. And I think probably are. When

36:03

you see a piece of furniture, it makes

36:06

you feel something and you just enjoy

36:08

it being though. It's just nice having it

36:10

in front of you. Visually appealing, you

36:12

may not even know why. And, yeah,

36:14

I just wanted to express myself

36:16

in that physical way because

36:18

obviously the whole book is about creation

36:21

and I wanted I just couldn't

36:23

help myself. I just wanted to start.

36:25

Making things myself, like all the

36:27

characters and the verbal things. So

36:30

yeah. I the two things

36:32

just went side by side, so

36:34

I would write putting you for a portion

36:36

of the day and then make things for

36:38

a couple of hours in the afternoon. And, yeah,

36:41

absolutely loved it. And we did it.

36:43

We just had an exhibition of

36:45

all the work in Nottingham Hill here in

36:47

London. And, yeah, it was we

36:49

had kind of parties every night,

36:52

and it was great. Was really great. It was

36:54

really brought. It was a sort of

36:56

dose of pure kind of

36:59

color and escapism in what was

37:01

a very horrible beginning in February.

37:04

I can imagine that having that brightness

37:06

of color and just pop would

37:08

infuse little bit of joy in

37:10

that kind of drab end of winter

37:13

phase. So I support this highly.

37:15

What do you walking away

37:17

from this book? What do you hope that readers

37:19

take away from the story?

37:23

For me, obviously,

37:26

I love writing about people who either

37:29

change the world as I might offer who

37:31

attempted to change the world, who have this kind

37:33

of higher

37:34

or

37:34

kind of ambition. And I find that

37:37

really fascinating. You know, and you would

37:39

read it and think, okay, what am I doing?

37:41

And what are the marks I'm making? And one

37:43

of the kind of main points of the book is yeah,

37:45

fame is one thing as well.

37:48

Fame, Michael and Leonardo. That

37:50

goes for something. But actually,

37:53

it's it's, say, the marks you

37:55

make on the people around you. And

37:57

those two things are laying off each other

37:59

all the time, you know, what it's like to be

38:01

an artist and seizures and artists, but

38:03

also what it's like to be a person

38:06

and what makes you successful as

38:08

a person. What would make you at the end

38:10

of your life to look back and think again, That

38:13

wasn't too bad or I'm leaving something

38:15

good here. Yeah. It's playing with those things.

38:17

It's not necessarily coming to a conclusion, but

38:20

it's kind of asking the question. Damien

38:22

Dibben, thank you so much for being here today.

38:26

No. It was pleasure to be here and

38:28

to speak to you. Thanks for listening

38:30

to this bonus interview with Damien Dibben.

38:33

Please do pick up a copy of the color

38:35

storm if you are so inclined. I

38:37

have included links in the podcast Show Notes

38:39

today, and you can also find them on

38:41

Damien's website, damien Dibben

38:43

dot com. Please do check out his

38:45

awesome furniture, all so at damien

38:48

Dibben furniture dot com. There

38:50

are some truly beautiful, bright,

38:52

and amazing pieces there. So thank you

38:54

again for listening today, and we'll be

38:56

back with you soon. Until then,

38:58

stay curious.