In this episode of the Asia Business Podcast, host Art Dicker interviews Chenchao Liu, the founder of SILREAL, a management consulting firm focusing on healthcare and Sino-European business exchanges. Chenchao shares his journey from China to Germany, his transition from science to business, and the mission of bridging the healthcare sectors between China and the West. They discuss the unique collaboration opportunities in pharmaceuticals and healthcare services between China and Europe, navigating political barriers, and the impact of regulations like IP protection and data sharing laws. The conversation delves into the challenges and trends reshaping the industry in China, including the aging population, health consciousness post-COVID, and the dynamics of foreign companies adapting to China's volume-based pricing system.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to the Episode and Guest

00:41 Chenchao Liu's Journey from China to Germany and Founding SILREAL

01:49 Bridging Sino-European Business in Healthcare

02:54 Exploring Recent Projects and the Impact of SILREAL's Work

05:03 Opportunities for China-Europe Collaboration in Healthcare

08:20 Navigating Political Barriers in Sino-European Relations

16:23 The Impact of Regulations on Cross-Border Healthcare Collaboration

21:15 Macro Trends Shaping the Healthcare Industry in China

31:16 Concluding Remarks and How to Connect with Chenchao Liu

Transcript

Art: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to another episode of the Asia Business Podcast. I'm your host, Art Dicker. Today we have the absolute pleasure of being joined by Chenchao Liu. Chenchao is the founder of SILREAL, a management consulting firm specializing in the healthcare sector [00:00:15] and fostering Sino European business exchanges.

Art: Welcome Chenchao.

Chenchao: Thank you, Art. Thank you for having me.

Art: Yeah, we've been talking. We've been talking a few times over the last couple of years or so, and [00:00:30] it just seemed natural that we do a podcast. We've had long conversations, the two of us just talking about some of these things we're going to get into.

Art: So it's, like I said, it's natural. We just record an episode about it. And, you were born in China, but you've lived in Germany for more than 20 [00:00:45] years now. And I was wondering if you could share a bit about your own kind Your own story behind the founding of SILREAL and then also help the audience understand a bit more kind of work you do to bridge the European Chinese markets in life [00:01:00] sciences.

Chenchao: Yeah, thank you, Art. Thank you for really inviting me and I respect and follow your work for a while and appreciate that I could share some of my story here. Yeah, as you mentioned, yeah, I was born in [00:01:15] China in Qingdao, historical city connected to Germany. And I came to Germany when I was 13. So I went to elementary school, and I studied chemistry in Munich.

Chenchao: And had very devoted concentration interested into [00:01:30] science and was very active. I high school already for Olympics and later for Mustang Institute ATH. But I realized later that due to the internship I did with consulting firms that I'm really belong to the business world.

Chenchao: I [00:01:45] want to work with people. I want to be in real impact making. And yeah, so I after graduation, I went to consulting firm, I did a lot of projects for hospitals and also for private equities [00:02:00] in 2017 when I realized that I wanted to Do more things with China. I said to myself look into the mirror.

Chenchao: You cannot just look like this way. It's better that you could do something content wise with the country [00:02:15] where you're from. And yeah, I started to advise some Chinese firms who come to Europe and vice versa. And yeah, and what is really entrepreneurial journey. Nobody has taught me how to build business, so really try and [00:02:30] arrow and yeah, I think it's combination of hard work, persistent and also support of others.

Chenchao: We have thright and have again, some traction, have project from federal menstrual health and the state governments help some big [00:02:45] pharma like AstraZeneca. And yeah, I really want to be the bridge in life science healthcare between China and the West.

Art: And can you talk a bit about some of the sort of the projects that you've worked on recently and[00:03:00] or so, some, so give the audience a really some context for some actual to the extent you're allowed to talk about it, but I know also we'll get into it.

Art: You've got quite a. Number of wonderful endorsements on your websites from the projects you've worked on, but just [00:03:15] to give the audience a bit of wrap their heads around the actual kind of consulting work and so forth that you do.

Chenchao: Yeah, thank you, Arthur. So basically, we have three main sectors of industries.

Chenchao: We serve for health [00:03:30] care, life science and public sector. We have done digitalization project for health care providers in Germany. I helped them to modernize their 6000 employee. System of hrs and consolidate over [00:03:45] 20 entities. And also to transform how they track employee working time and management of the post recruitment retention.

Chenchao: So other project we have done is really to bring [00:04:00] public and private sector together to tackle Corona diseases. To learn from each other between German China when it's come to for example, COPD. I think the strengths we can bring here is really to understand the [00:04:15] policy, understand the legal justice nature.

Chenchao: But also to bridge, what does it make the difference between how Germany and China handle different disease areas. And lastly, as I mentioned for the government public sector we do [00:04:30] oftentimes delegation trips for ministry level for experts from insurance for hospital representative to really to understand how big countries like China, Israel and the U.

Chenchao: S. Playing around in the [00:04:45] digitalization. And that's why I think it's very crucial especially in this age to have a active dialogue because I do think, as you mentioned, the before the trip for by the chancellor, there's this avenue of collaboration [00:05:00] is still very strong within the healthcare.

Art: Yeah, let's jump into that, jump ahead into that question. The, in an ideal scenario, devoid of political barriers, and we'll get into those, maybe some of those political barriers in a 2nd, but, what are some of the [00:05:15] unique opportunities for collaboration between China and Europe in the, pharmaceuticals, biotechnology.

Art: Health care services, because it seems like there's you've already hit on it a bit. There's naturally a lot of synergies. There's just by listening to some of the projects [00:05:30] you've supported so far. So without politics in the mix, what would be the, some of the more of those kind of natural synergies between between China and Europe in these sectors?

Chenchao: Yeah, thank you. I think due to a large population, 1. [00:05:45] 5 billion in people in China, and it's already is the second biggest market in healthcare and pharmaceuticals and it's posed to become the biggest one but if you look at the per capital expenditure China is still lagging very [00:06:00] far behind.

Chenchao: It's only around 10 percent or less, Of that expenditure per capita compared to European level. So there's a lot of to catch up and I think aging population China and also very high pressure for, [00:06:15] a younger generation birth rate. So there's a lot of issues within the society and also the plague by the chronic diseases in various forms.

Chenchao: I just mentioned COPD, but there's also other ways and the cancer [00:06:30] and, uh, heart related diseases. And I think this is also very important after the COVID, like how to also in the community diseases are prevented. Measurement and the very [00:06:45] important role China can have. So I think this is really laid the ground for multinationals to really look into China and the force of their expansion.

Chenchao: And despite all the attention we have touched on, I think there's a lot [00:07:00] of company. Are just announced even further and stronger presence in China, like as Seneca's new research facility in Hong Kong. In Heim also mentioned the billion of investment [00:07:15] going on. So there is still very strong sense that the market due to the high population, due to also the infrastructure because China is still at home.

Chenchao: of a very strong, supplier for biosimilar and and [00:07:30] APIs for big pharmaceuticals around globe. So it's very crucial to have a healthy relationship with China to keep supply chain safe and secure.

Art: Yeah, and that's actually in contrast a little bit to what's been going on in the U. S. [00:07:45] these days.

Art: It's more and more Chinese companies are potentially Congress is in an election year here in the U. S., as is looking at more and more Chinese companies. And now that's extended to the bios and pharmaceutical sector as well, which is, I guess people thought might [00:08:00] happen, but maybe not so quickly.

Art: So that's it seems like Europe is not it is quite different, which is I guess not surprising but that's been in the news here in the U. S. too. And it's living here in San Diego, California, where I know a lot of those, the Chinese companies and U. S. companies, [00:08:15] this is a place where they work together.

Art: It's I don't know, a little bit disheartening to see that happening, but but I guess there's. Anyway, I won't get into the concerns but now that we do put let's say, we put politics to some of the tensions into the mix. How is that starting [00:08:30] at all to influence cooperation between China and Europe?

Art: Like I said, China in the US, I think that's already definitely having an impact, but do you see that having an impact at all between China and Europe? Yeah, definitely. Are there are [00:08:45] big impacts. The question is like how, long term and how quantifiable other impacts. I think everything is put into perspective.

Chenchao: I think compared to other industries health care amount climate are still Thank you. [00:09:00] Very strong, constructive avenue of collaboration, but I do agree with your assessment. There's a difference between US China, European China relationship, and I think underlined by the trip by Chancellor Scholz from [00:09:15] Germany with three ministers and all state secretary level people, three days.

Chenchao: Very long stay. So it's a really strong signal not only to China, but to the rest of the world that we need a very strong dialogue. We need a very [00:09:30] strong, and the Stanford, even we cannot agree on everything on every issues. But I think this kind of. Very pragmatic approach that we need China also to solve major conflicts in Middle East in Ukraine, Russian conflict, [00:09:45] and others.

Chenchao: I think this is just to serve, the best interests of the people who ultimately, At the say in the democracies in the West. So I think when it's come to industry politics I do believe that, of course [00:10:00] Europeans want to, have the access to Chinese market. At the same time, it's very critical.

Chenchao: Look at at, also from the legislative and legal point of view, China. The IP laws, the cyber security laws, and also the [00:10:15] limitation data transfer. These are all the problems, especially also for R& D intensive industry like pharmaceuticals, biotech. And so this is a strong position for European part to get China more to create [00:10:30] a, a fair competition environment.

Chenchao: So this has been a very strong agenda of the trip as well. I personally, as I said, I was organized of the delegation trip myself for the ministry level. And last year I was [00:10:45] invited for the delegation trip by the climate minister from Germany. So I do see a very strong willingness to collaborate.

Chenchao: And to willingness to, to collaborate in field where common dialogue is [00:11:00] possible. And I'm very hopeful to see, and just to stay by Germany in June the economy, Mr. Habeck is going to China as well. So I do think that's within this year very crucial both to the election, as you mentioned, yes.

Chenchao: [00:11:15] But also some very highly watched elections within the states in Germany. So yeah so China West relation has always been very significant.

Art: Yeah, that's, I think there's, that's a great point. Look at that three days and high [00:11:30] level visits like that. And that's really, I don't think there's many other countries that do that.

Art: So of course, certainly not the United States, but there's, that's that As you said, really would show a sign of commitment to the relationship and the markets [00:11:45] opportunities both ways even. And I did also read that Chancellor Schultz said that IP protection, you hit on it.

Art: There is was maybe the chief concern of German companies. And I wonder if. We can get into that as a bit of a side [00:12:00] topic. Is that a is that still a concern for German companies in these sectors we've been talking about? Or is that more, let's say, in some of the traditional auto or other sectors that German companies have been also quite strong in is that I'm [00:12:15] talking about IP protection in China.

Art: I know, because, of course, I practice law cross border there, and I can certainly. The audience, if they've been listening to me, know that I think that IP protection in China has gotten significantly better than it was [00:12:30] when I first started going over there. But I, like I said, Chancellor Schultz said that's still a primary concern for German companies.

Art: Do you see that in your industries as well?

Chenchao: I think one say it's reputation is hard to build but easy to lose, [00:12:45] right? So once you have a not very good reputation when it comes to IP protection, IP enforcement, and it's very hard to build back the reputation. I do agree on legislative level, China has already made progress and [00:13:00] had also You know enforce the law and to punish some of the companies who infiltrate the IP so I think I totally agree with your assessment, but the other hand, when it's come to all our confidence in Chinese market, when it's come to [00:13:15] IP, it is still very low slope recovery. So that's concern remains. And because there's also the effect of those high pace of regulatory changes in China, right?

Chenchao: So we, we see A new laws coming in rapid [00:13:30] speed, there's no time to read, to digest, to understand the comment, not like the legislative cycles we know from the democratic system in the U. S. or in Europe, in the European Union. Everything's slower, people have time to debate, to [00:13:45] comment, and to see the final draft of the law might be totally different.

Chenchao: In China, you have to really keep up the pace to understand the new laws, what is impact for the business. And I think the other very current issue art is also [00:14:00] when it's come to espionage law in China, and this has also direct. Impacting the pharmaceuticals company because the audit and the inspections for this kind of factory and sites who are [00:14:15] producing products directly for the European U.

Chenchao: S. market are scrutinized. And but not in the direct way. It's just, as I said, a lot of confidence, fear of to be imprisoned, fear of to be Questions on the [00:14:30] airport that's why many inspectors are refusing to fly to China to do their audit job, which is very concerning because even there's nothing happened alone, this kind of angst, this kind of uncertainty is not very good [00:14:45]confidence for business.

Chenchao: And we know if their sites and the manufacturer entities are not a certified, they are not allowed to sell products in the board. And. This doesn't only harm business, it just can harm patient's health, safety, [00:15:00] and patient care. So we really have to act fast and to come to a really good pragmatic agreement.

Chenchao: So there's reinstalled the confidence. I think at the end of the day, we cannot regard business or economic ize only on paper, [00:15:15] on legal. But rather on people's perception, we have to regain the confidence we have to regain that China is a reliable partner and not just being said, not just put on paper, but lived by [00:15:30] example.

Chenchao: I think this is also an effort we, both sides, need to make an effort.

Art: Yeah, and I see that on the U. S. China side as well, there's a perception and, it's hard to say exactly [00:15:45] what the reality is, but there's a perception. That recently, especially that it's not safe for executives to travel to China.

Art: And even the U S state department has put out a travel advisory last year about that did warning executives [00:16:00] to, from, for traveling from the U S to China that they may get questioned or may not be able to come back on the exact flight they had originally planned and so forth. So even if those concerns, or even if that's not exactly the way it is in reality.[00:16:15]

Art: There's those perceptions, like you said, and that affects real business decisions and planning for investments and audits, like you said it does affect things. And I'll stick with regulations because you mentioned the anti espionage law and, a lot of that has also to do with [00:16:30] some of the.

Art: The data regulations that come out, and those have also come out and been implemented very quickly and almost the regulators are trying to catch up because companies have concerns. How do I implement the PIPL in my business? And this doesn't [00:16:45] add up and this doesn't make sense. And the regulators, particularly the cyber security administration there, they've had to.

Art: Been in catch up mode, I think, especially the last couple of years. So how have these regulations, of course, Europe is very in Germany, and I'm very familiar with [00:17:00] GDPR and how have these regulations for especially the PIPL in China, the data protection law, how has that affected cross border healthcare collaborations and data sharing recently?

Chenchao: Yeah. Thank you, Arda. I think this is [00:17:15] very crucial questions. I think in that field is very also innovative, new, of course, the get challenged by the industries, big tech companies but the AI act, digital market act. So there's a lot of initiative [00:17:30] legislations where your European union employs to be very on the frontier of the regulation of the digital era.

Chenchao: GDPR has been for a long time. I think it is very restrictive law. It's protects [00:17:45] the data very strongly, and it's also becomes even, people criticize to be very bureaucratic to be very, noisy. But somehow in the international level, it's also receives a positive [00:18:00] example set by the European Union.

Chenchao: This is when it's come to China, also some positive thing to, to tell about the China because the privacy law. It has been improved, has been introduced, and also follow some of the [00:18:15]patterns by GDPR as a good leadership in that regard. But again, the law is only has its value when it's enforced, right?

Chenchao: So this is a discrepancy, I think, not only a problem China faces, but in many countries [00:18:30] as well. But in that regard, China is definitely doing better. But, and also there's a concession, I think, also due to the recent diplomatic warm up that China allows data outflow again of company related data for big [00:18:45] companies.

Chenchao: I think this is very important to rebuild the trust, rebuild the confidence. I think, similar to the topic of the capital outflow, very sensitive, but also very important topic. And because China need to [00:19:00] have confidence and the favorite investors and company. So I think this was the right step.

Chenchao: And I do think this has to be even more in the long term to be rebalanced, renegotiated. When it comes to other legislations as you mentioned, [00:19:15] espionage law, I think in general speaking they are very, of course follow a certain pattern of, what happens in the U. S.,

Chenchao: Following the 9 11 Patriot Act. So China tries also to have very strong [00:19:30]regulations and legislative, toolboxes to, to survey and also monitor citizens, companies, and to have very strong executive powers in case of unseen danger for the national security.

Chenchao: But the [00:19:45] law is, it's very expensive and very widely weak interpreted. And this is also led to the suspicion and also the threat and by people who read the law just to be very hard to [00:20:00] appropriate when which case applies, which not, I think it does need more concretized formulation to make sure that, no more operations, especially in the very crucial areas in pharmaceutical [00:20:15] manufacturing are not hindered and prohibited.

Chenchao: And because I think China as a nation of a modern industry is very keen to become a leadership in digital [00:20:30] health in, in, in clinical trials providers. And also to be, very strong out licensing production site. So China itself need to say a very open environment. And I think the government is more and [00:20:45] more keen to understand that it's not just do a favor for a foreign company, but more and more it's actually very imperative for China.

Chenchao: For the Chinese firm to succeed on the global stage,

Art: that's a good point. That's a [00:21:00] good way of putting it that, that, maybe in some ways it felt like the regulations are there to protect local Chinese companies, but at some point you don't want to keep protecting them if it means, if it prevents them from becoming globally competitive.

Art: So we, and we [00:21:15] touched on the. The market opportunities a bit and some of the macro trends that are shaping the industry and the opportunity there in China. But I wanted to go back to that a bit still. There's an aging population in China and there's also a global increase in kind of [00:21:30] the health consciousness post COVID, especially in China.

Art: I noticed when I was living there. So what macro trends do you believe are continuing to reshape the industry in China and pulling. Foreign companies to, to keep working there and keep looking for [00:21:45] opportunities.

Chenchao: Yeah, I think China has been facing multiple fronts of challenges, right? I think the big factor you just mentioned is the COVID wave which the implication repercussions are still to be failed and to be seen [00:22:00] and to be recovered.

Chenchao: And we have a lot of issues within this company and, we have very strong loss confidence in the stock market in Hong Kong. Almost two digits trailing off value was webbed out and [00:22:15]we have a problem with the company who don't want to go IPO at all. We have property market is collapsing which makes up to almost a one fifth of the GDP.

Chenchao: So there's a lot of big issues within the [00:22:30] company within the country. And we have a declining population, we, the population already picked and not only that the number, but also, especially we're talking about an area in India, the population is still very young there under [00:22:45]30 where here is aging very rapidly.

Chenchao: And and then also, I think this is something which people hardly want to talk about. Is, we know that the government is very powerful, where it's strong and very directive. But [00:23:00] once you come to people's reproduction the limitation is also to be observed, right? So you cannot dictate everything.

Chenchao: And so it's very important to create a society and environment where people feel safe, feel protected, feel [00:23:15] supported to have children. And also to cope with the fact, okay, what do we do as government, as a society, if the birth rate is not increasing, so we have to make people more productive to make sure that we create the opportunity [00:23:30] for people, especially in the health care sector, when it comes to care nursing, I think.

Chenchao: And we have a lot of things to catch up when it comes to the systematic education where already a lot of things have been, transferred and learned from the West, especially when [00:23:45] it comes to machinery and automobile, but now it's have to shift more to health care and service areas. And which is already taking place, and this is why China needs open dialogues, open collaboration [00:24:00] with us.

Chenchao: It's not only just keep the markets open, but keep the people safe, keep the patients served. And this is something we have to have a longer run, longer view to make sure this is happening. I think this is a very, [00:24:15] pressing issue the Asian population. But I do think, we, we can create a system where it's also the, questions linger in the second level when it's come to the problem of who call, the residency.

Chenchao: There's [00:24:30] come to the issue like universal income, and it's a very big disparity of wealth disparity of big. So this are all connected dots, when it's come to the question why people don't want to give birth, why we don't have confidence in [00:24:45] the country to thrive and So I think this is take a long run to, to rebuild everything.

Chenchao: But I think it's very good start to really, to ensure very valuable and needed jobs like nursing, healthcare professionals, [00:25:00] and also to tackle the problem of youth unemployment.

Art: Yeah, lots of macro challenges there. And it's you're right. The, also the government there, it takes some somewhat of, I guess you could call it like a [00:25:15] paternalistic kind of approach in some ways it doesn't, in some ways it's very hands off, maybe two hands off, but one way it does take the a very, It does get very involved, and especially compared to the U.

Art: S. where, the U. S. where health care costs are pretty, pretty out of [00:25:30] control. China has this volume based pricing system to try to control health care costs as best as it can. I know I've used the public health system in China and some of the public hospitals, and I'm amazed at how inexpensive the costs [00:25:45] are.

Art: Now, of course, if you're looking, if you're going into the hospitals there in Shanghai, you see they have this very expensive equipment. But they're using it at a mass production kind of scale. You use a CT scan there. It's like a factory. They're getting people in and out. [00:26:00] So I wonder for at least maybe going back to the volume based pricing that a lot of the government requires for firms, including foreign firms that are doing business there.

Art: How have foreign firms, let's say from Germany or the EU how have they [00:26:15] struggled with that policy? In, in, In their market approach in China, or maybe they've just learned to adapt to it, right? Maybe it's more similar to some of the pricing policies that they've faced in Europe. The US, of course, is [00:26:30] those companies probably face less of that.

Chenchao: Yeah, I think this is a very interesting and impactful for questions. And when it comes to access to healthcare providers and [00:26:45] access to the best solution, innovation and pharmaceuticals. So I think when it comes to procurement strategy, Chinese government, and this is also where you see, central government's power compared to capitalism driven forces in the U.

Chenchao: [00:27:00] S. Where, 18 percent GDP are spent on healthcare, where a lot of money is spent, but the outcome is not where we, good compared to much of the cheaper system in the European Union. But when it comes to China, I think there's a lot of reforms happening, [00:27:15] for decades.

Chenchao: We have different reforms of Chinese FDA to national it got products and administration. So a lot of things have been changed. And I also, over the 30 provinces in China have been also consolidated to [00:27:30] one central pricing negotiation scheme within central government, which also voice.

Chenchao: It's a provincial government competing each other and to set a different level of pricing, which can not be benefiting the patient or [00:27:45] hospital system. So the power of central government negotiates on pricing is very huge. And in China, for many in therapeutic areas, we already see the lowest price.

Chenchao: Globally, even lower than some [00:28:00] African countries. So China is very strong when it comes to pushing the price down over 90%. Did a deduction reduction is not a rare. So the questions as you ask, what does it mean for their foreign companies? I think [00:28:15] still many companies, of course, they fall. They say, okay, under certain price, we don't want to play anymore.

Chenchao: But big names and the big companies still being not only, I think, just to be in the [00:28:30]market, to please the government, to really be not screwing in nice. It's also because a question of how long the view you took at it. So because I think big companies operating the more strategic long term in decades, not in [00:28:45] years.

Chenchao: So they know that it's very important to stay within the system. And they also know the system can work against them in short term, but it can also improve in favor of them in short term. Because Chinese systems is always [00:29:00] dynamic and very flexible. And and also to be fair Chinese population is huge.

Chenchao: And that's why even the price is low, even the, perfect margin percentage wise is low, but the absolute number is still [00:29:15] enormous. And I think the second point, Art, is also to mention, because we have observed a strong censorship in China, of course, but, of course, the people and patients can still access a lot of [00:29:30] information outside of China.

Chenchao: And they learn and know a lot about innovation happening in China. In the pipelines and the new introduction of drugs, and they want to get it, and they want to say, Hey, why we don't have it. Why is only [00:29:45] access in the Europe and American market. It's a pressure come also from bottom, and this puts the government also in the position to even they don't want to let in maybe too many foreign drugs because they want to promote [00:30:00] the domestic brands, domestic company, also because they're expensive, they don't want to, pay from the, insurance scheme, though, but I think this is very good.

Chenchao: Dynamics to help to balance the power to not [00:30:15] only one side to dictate what is sold on the market, but also to make sure and, compared to the extreme in the U. S. That only let the market a player in company to dictate the price and the scheme. So [00:30:30] I think this is what China needs, a balanced approach.

Chenchao: I think Europe has a pretty good example to set when we look at Denmark, Germany where it, there's a market dictation, but also government [00:30:45] monitoring. And I think this is a way to go.

Art: Yeah, that makes sense. And that's a very good point. You mentioned about it's not just necessarily a top down approach from the Chinese government that they have to be responsive to what [00:31:00]their consumers or the constituents want and they hear about drugs overseas and say, why is that not available here?

Art: That's a great point. I think by this interview, you've made it very clear with the audience that this is a topic you can speak very clearly about [00:31:15] and very and a real depth. And I wonder if, 1st, I would encourage again, people to check out your company and website, this great testimonials and endorsements from the companies that you've worked with.

Art: It's really impressive, very big name companies. So I can tell the work you're [00:31:30] doing as a. Has a big impact and is getting results. And I wonder if people want to reach out to you. After listening to this show, what's the best way for people to reach out to you? Is it LinkedIn or is it go to your website or all of the above?[00:31:45]

Chenchao: Yeah. for for asking. Yeah. I think I'm very easy, accessible to be found on LinkedIn or very easy [email protected]. Yeah, happy to hear your [00:32:00] feedback and your comments also on the conversation right now I'm having with art and also have help to any endeavors that might come across.

Chenchao: very much.

Art: Yeah, that's great. We'll put a link up to the site on the show notes as well. [00:32:15] And and I'm sure people will reach out to you. So once again, Chen Chao, thank you for coming on. It's been a pleasure talking with you.

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