0:10

Welcome to another episode of At the Table with

0:12

Patrick Lynchoni where everything we talk about is related

0:14

to organizational health and the world of work. I'm

0:17

your host, Pat Lynchoni, joined by the full

0:19

crew today of Bo, Cody, and Tracy. But

0:21

before I ask how they're doing, we've

0:24

decided we are going to stop doing this. Here's

0:26

why. She said, hey,

0:28

Pat, you did that episode about not saying

0:31

things that you don't mean, like even when

0:33

you're positive but it's not sincere. But

0:35

you always ask people how you're doing and it feels like

0:37

they always say, great. So we

0:39

are going to cut some time out of these by

0:42

not asking. But

0:44

if there's something that's going on in your life and you want

0:46

to share it, people do like to hear about that. But we

0:48

want it to be sincere. And so I'm going to share something

0:51

I feel really overwhelmed. It's

0:53

the beginning of January or early in

0:55

January. And I feel pretty overwhelmed

0:58

by all the different things there are to do. And

1:00

I don't know if other people feel that way. But

1:02

as I sit down to do this podcast, I'm feeling

1:04

my brain is scattered. There's so many things I'm thinking

1:06

about and so many priorities I'm chasing. So

1:09

if anybody else has any overwhelming

1:12

emotional feelings, I'd love to

1:14

hear about them. Anything everybody? Thanks

1:16

for asking, Pat. I feel great. Wonderful.

1:21

Wonderful. Okay,

1:24

I got Karen sitting next to me here. Matt's producing.

1:27

We're going to get started. And

1:29

what's the topic today, Cody? Backseat

1:32

driver. Backseat driver is usually thought

1:35

of as something bad. Like, don't be a backseat

1:37

driver. But when you think about leadership, you're

1:39

in a car with the other leaders of an

1:42

organization. Not everybody's sitting there in the driver seat.

1:44

Only one person is. Everybody else

1:46

has to do a good job of being a backseat

1:48

or passenger seat driver. We want to talk about that.

1:50

And a dear friend of mine, a priest, I saw

1:52

him over the weekend and he said, Pat, you got

1:54

to help me out here. He said, what

1:56

do you do when you're not the leader of a team? You're

1:58

number two or number three. because

3:08

they want it and he if you're not doing

3:10

it you're doing it because you just don't want

3:12

to be uncomfortable okay that's the first sitting

4:00

in the driver's seat. Does that make sense? Totally

4:02

makes sense. Go ahead Cody. I

4:05

was gonna say, Pat, that would

4:07

have been my answer too. I do think it depends. You

4:09

know, the leader has to have some level of openness. And

4:12

it is interesting that people start with the

4:16

sentiment of how do I push back, you

4:18

know? Or how do I

4:20

disagree? Or how do I make sure,

4:22

tell them some hard things? And

4:25

I've experienced with you and

4:27

other leaders, when there is openness there, like

4:30

one of the things that you say, which

4:32

I love, is you say, we always assume

4:34

that leaders are leading exactly how they want

4:36

to lead. And so they think

4:38

they get up out of bed every day, put their

4:41

business suit on and go into work and think,

4:43

oh, I'm nailing this, I'm crushing it. Like

4:45

I've got it all figured out. And the

4:48

humble self-aware leaders are ones that'll say

4:50

right out of the gate, like, oh,

4:52

thank you for this. Because I

4:54

didn't realize that or I don't have it all

4:57

figured out. Right. And

4:59

let me be clear though, even though I think I want to be

5:01

that person, even people that

5:03

are open don't always come across that open in the

5:05

moment or they have a bad day or they seem

5:07

like they're frustrated that you're asking the same question. So

5:09

this is not a black and white thing. Even

5:12

leaders who know that they need the input of their

5:14

team can sometimes send off a vibe that I'm not

5:16

really interested in it right now. So

5:19

the question is, how do we

5:21

navigate that? And how do we find out

5:23

if we're not sure they're really open? I

5:27

think it'd be kind of fun because we did not

5:29

talk about this topic in advance of this recording. I

5:32

kind of want to answer from the seat that

5:34

I've sat in as it relates to helping you

5:36

and our leadership team. And then I want you

5:38

to answer the exact same question from the actual

5:41

leader seat is when and

5:43

how did some of what I was

5:45

doing start to feel like,

5:47

oh, this is helpful. I want

5:49

Cody to do more of that. Because I

5:51

do have a little bit of a perspective of

5:54

when I felt like it shifted in our

5:56

relationship. Do you want to do that live? You want

5:58

to just talk about it right now? Yeah. That see that

6:00

would be fun and I can say that because I

6:02

know that our intentions are good in that you know

6:04

unless this is the big reveal where you're going to

6:07

say up in an office would like some nine years

6:09

and you're gonna tell me about it in front of

6:11

fifty thousand people which without the i hate us as

6:13

but. It's all part of my hostile

6:15

takeover plan, so it's definitely nine years

6:17

to get here. Ducks her so patient

6:19

assists nor I actually was thinking like

6:21

oh what is it Is it a

6:23

behavior? Is it. You. Know obviously you need

6:26

to be trustworthy and you need to tell the

6:28

kind truth And are many other things that we

6:30

talked about on this podcast are we do regularly.

6:33

One. Of the things that occurred to me as I

6:35

was lit, listening to you talk was. I.

6:37

Remember a moment where. It felt

6:39

like you realized that I cared as much

6:42

about the business as you. Like.

6:44

In the sense that like. Leaders often

6:46

feel isolated, like I have to make payroll and

6:48

I have to set the vision and I guess

6:51

if there are mistakes than their my mistakes And

6:53

I remember a meeting that we had where I

6:55

kind of jumped in with you on behalf of

6:57

the business. And thought that like.

7:00

I have east from might see I thought

7:02

oh Pat realizes that I care about this

7:05

company that you created. And so

7:07

that let me say a few different things

7:09

are, let me pushback him in different ways.

7:11

I wonder that sort of one of my

7:14

perspectives was just this absolute care. and when

7:16

and leader sees you as a as executive

7:18

team member, second in charge or whatever may

7:20

say, like oh man, they actually care And

7:22

there they they care as much as I

7:25

do or they're They're exhausted the same way

7:27

that I am. It opens the door a

7:29

little bit more than you think about up.

7:32

I. Think that's a great point and when they

7:34

know it's not about you're not pushing back

7:36

for your benefit, You're pushing back for the

7:38

organization's benefit, comes in is not want. To.

7:41

Hear what they have to say, And

7:43

unless you're insecure and you feel like that's a threat

7:45

to your authority, you've got Want to hear that? So.

7:49

I think that's a great point. Was up a day here in the

7:51

big in the office when. The. Big conversation.

7:53

We have that type of. I. Think

7:55

that was it that are in our care enough to

7:57

sitting next to me was involved in that day. Yeah.

8:01

That felt like up Whereas you and I think

8:03

back like I think that day is one of

8:05

the maybe there's four or five different moments but

8:07

I was definitely one of them that has solidified

8:10

of my brain about that shift. Yeah.

8:12

You stepped in and start taking bullets and and

8:14

and. And really pushing the conversation. and

8:16

it was like. Here. We go. This

8:19

is great. Yeah, so that is a group that

8:21

has a really good when When you know the

8:23

you know be demonstrate to the leader that you

8:25

are just as invested in that and in what's

8:27

going on as they are. And.

8:29

And you care that much. If

8:31

at leader doesn't respond to that Weldon, they're probably

8:33

have other issues and make your heart yeah. At

8:36

a friend who recently started at it as and at

8:39

a new jobs and he was asked to come in

8:41

and help change the culture and gonna be a C

8:43

O type number two role in his first week on

8:45

the job as one of the worst week seat ever

8:47

had a and he's like I have so many things.

8:49

so many problems I need to point out to the

8:51

leader about the way that they're leaning. And.

8:54

We've. All had that moment where we felt the

8:56

oh i see something that's wrong and I think

8:58

you did something very naturals physical all wait to

9:00

be asked am my encourage me to him was

9:02

to do the opposite is to say. They.

9:04

Brought you here because they want your perspective. You

9:07

have a seat at the table because they value

9:09

you. Been in that seat and I think. Sometimes.

9:12

If we wait to speak up it becomes

9:14

the sort of self fulfilling prophecy like I

9:16

believe that they don't wanna hear. It eventually

9:18

becomes true that they don't want to hear

9:20

up and so this is a long intro

9:22

to be same my question him was what

9:24

are you waiting for. Local like

9:27

I'd literally would sound somebody if they are feel

9:29

like they're a backseat driver and wanting to know

9:31

if they should challenge their leader to say okay,

9:33

let's let's examine what are you waiting for. What

9:36

are you waiting for to be able to

9:38

speak up? To be able to challenge? to

9:40

be able to. Maybe. Encourage or

9:42

help Like what is the thing that are

9:44

waiting for to be able to speak up

9:46

and sometimes were waiting for more courage or

9:48

waiting to be invited. We're. Waiting because

9:51

we want to protect our own seat. I'd

9:53

love to know to think about that part. Yet

9:55

you know, years ago at Nfl Coach

9:57

National Football League for people overseas. They

10:00

invited me into work with their with their coaching

10:02

staff and so I was given a talks but

10:04

before I went up and and talk via just

10:06

tired of very well known assistant coach. From.

10:09

Another team. And the guy came up

10:11

to me said pat i couldn't believe it is be

10:13

huge guy used by meanest else said I don't know

10:15

if I should say anything I don't step on people's

10:17

toes. they brought me into be an assistant but maybe

10:19

they don't want to hear from me and I remember

10:21

thinking and I got up in front of the entire

10:23

team and i said this guy's brand new. You.

10:26

Need him. You didn't hire him not to hear

10:28

from him. So. See needs to step

10:30

up and share his opinions and you need to invite

10:32

him to do that. So it's a two way street.

10:35

Now. If you wait till everyone's completely

10:37

comfortable. It's. Not gonna happen. There's gonna

10:40

be those moments, right? I don't know if I

10:42

should say this or not, but I will air

10:44

on the side of speaking up. So

10:46

I think that's a i hope that does that answer

10:48

the question. But. It totally does and and

10:50

isn't a troop out there. From the standpoint of the

10:52

leader of. So. Many leaders have a

10:55

hard time getting the truth. it's so hard

10:57

to know what is actually going on and

10:59

so it feels like if I speak up

11:01

I might lose my seat. But so often

11:04

when you speak up, your actually gain respect

11:06

and influence with the leader because they're trying

11:08

to figure out what the heck is going

11:10

on in their organization. Anyway, They value. Of

11:13

leaders even with a dose of humility. Value:

11:16

The person who's willing to be able to

11:18

step into the arena and say the truth.

11:21

And we hope the kind truth so be kind

11:23

about it. But don't mince your words in terms

11:25

of the message. You know I just thought of

11:27

something. I don't think we've never talked about this

11:29

on a podcast before, but I've said this to

11:31

my wife of said it's you guys to as

11:33

the leader. I. When

11:36

somebody is seen me do something that they

11:38

might not agree with. I.

11:41

I'd What I like to say is. Do. Me

11:43

a favor rather than just standing in front of the

11:45

car and same stuff. I

11:47

like when you jump in the car and sit next to

11:49

me. And. In Containers.

11:52

And kind of relate to why I'm thinking the way

11:54

I I'm and then help me steer and turn the

11:56

car around. To Sometimes rather than

11:58

what I think a lot of. What You're what

12:00

the number one leader is looking for. A little bit of

12:02

empathy for why they're feeling the way they are. So.

12:05

Even if they're doing something kind of wrong, he wants them

12:07

to say hey, let me. Let. Me: get in

12:09

there with you and and and see this away. You see

12:11

it. Then. You're willing

12:13

to go here. Why don't you take the wheel

12:15

now and turn this in the to where you

12:18

think it needs to be? But when somebody just

12:20

says don't do that it's like when semi stop

12:22

worrying united mean nobody like that. But.

12:24

When somebody says hey, I get why you're worried

12:26

the night I would worry about that too. So.

12:29

Let's let me jump in there with you at maybe

12:31

I can help you steer away from this. That's.

12:33

A very different things so that some advice that

12:35

I hadn't really thought of. That as a leader

12:38

I like when the person sits next to me

12:40

at the steering wheel and can kind of look

12:42

at the gauges and understand why I'm feeling the

12:44

way I'm that I'm really. Probably. Wanting

12:46

them to take over for what. Does

12:50

that make sense? You have? you been in that role with me? Feel.

12:52

Totally and I I I think of. You.

12:54

Know there's of them are undervaluing

12:57

both. The waiver I've participated our

12:59

leadership team but I'm even looking

13:01

at of Tracy's years or Tracy's

13:03

way of influencing the leader is

13:05

having the longest track record of

13:07

telling you be. The. Truth that

13:09

you need to hear coming alongside your

13:11

legs. I don't think there's one way

13:13

to do this you know on might have

13:16

been more of though. Let me jump in

13:18

the car and grab the steering wheel

13:20

and then Tracy as more of the backseat

13:22

driver giving like just years and decades

13:24

of advice and truth telling and information. So

13:26

true their love for you to think about

13:29

this and and sure your perspective. I

13:32

think the one perspective that we haven't

13:34

talked about as that's leaders are also

13:36

team members. So. Fun part

13:38

is also my team member. he's my

13:41

leader, but she's also my team members

13:43

and I think given that there's more

13:45

empathy, their. I. Think it

13:47

sort of levels that the playing cel to

13:50

and I think that empathy that you were

13:52

talking about part is because I see you

13:54

also as my team member. Yet

13:56

you know that's very interesting because sometimes working on

13:59

something crazy New York. Clearly in charge and

14:01

I'm here to help you. Move.

14:03

Your It's not like when you walk around

14:05

you have a half as Ceo or manager

14:08

or leader or principal our pasture. Sometimes the

14:10

other person is driving the car and they're

14:12

like your job. Now Mr. Mrs. See our

14:14

leader is to come in and help me

14:16

so I know the learned how to work

14:19

for you at times which then I have

14:21

to have empathy for When you're working for

14:23

me you're right. So if we just think

14:25

that we only have one hat and that

14:27

is I'm always in charge and I'm always

14:30

number one then it gets a lot harder

14:32

for people to kind. Of I just. I

14:34

mean I think about when I'm writing a book.

14:36

Like. In many ways, Tracy, when I'm

14:39

writing, you're the boss. Is

14:41

your my editor? And you're the

14:43

person I write for and I look for

14:45

your your input from. And so

14:47

I'm trying to please you. And.

14:50

And so. I'm. Not, I'm not. Look,

14:52

if you're not serving me as the editor,

14:54

I'm kind of surfing you because you're kind

14:57

of trying to keep me on track and

14:59

keep these spirits. So I I do think

15:01

that you're right, Even leaders, even the Ceo

15:03

of the biggest company is a member of

15:05

the team and isn't always the one in

15:07

charge. Of the great. Part

15:10

I'd love for you to talk about were working

15:12

Genius plays into this. I wish

15:14

you could see my my piece of paper he heard. It

15:17

says different types of working genius affects us

15:19

to. I worked with a see you have

15:21

a. Fifteen. Billion Dollar

15:23

Company. We did. They're working Genius!

15:26

And discernment. Was not one

15:28

of his genius. And.

15:30

He said you guys I need you.

15:33

To. Check me on my thinking because if

15:35

your gut is telling me that I'm

15:37

doing something wrong, I might not notice

15:39

it because I'm just looking at the

15:41

numbers so you can't. Defer.

15:43

To me. And that was

15:45

so important. Like every working genius, every

15:47

Ceo is different. And. You

15:49

need people. That. Are going

15:52

to fill in the gaps for you. But.

15:54

Now if I'm speaking to the number two player,

15:56

I. Would say know what your

15:58

Ceos Geniuses are. Know.

16:01

What their frustrations and competencies

16:03

are. And. Maybe use that

16:05

as the context for offering them

16:07

feedback. And say hey I have

16:10

a slightly different perspective because of my working

16:12

genius or fret over there thinks about this

16:14

differently. we need to hear from him and

16:16

even. Even. A Ceo

16:18

this can I used to been in charge

16:20

is going to have an easier time recognizing.

16:22

Oh yeah, that's right, I have limitations and

16:24

they're going to invite you to drive. In.

16:27

Times when you're working. Genius suits you better in

16:29

the driver's seat. But. I have question

16:31

for you. I've been in the seat at two

16:34

different organizations were as you know by now I

16:36

was the guy who was often pushing. And

16:38

in one of the organization's it was received really

16:40

well. and that was an organization where we had

16:43

clarity. We knew why we existed and how we

16:45

behave, and we knew our strategic anchors. And.

16:47

The other did not that it was

16:49

very, very difficult to challenge and push

16:51

the leader because we didn't have clarity

16:53

and. I'm wondering if you could

16:56

speak to that for somebody listening his like I

16:58

just don't know what we're going him or feel

17:00

like when I challenge the leader. We're operating with

17:02

two different sets of values are two different sets

17:04

of standards for a were chasing. How.

17:06

Do you speak up to a leader and

17:08

encourage them to become more clear about who

17:10

we are and where we're going? I

17:13

think that you just have to be very

17:15

direct answer. I think the problem here is

17:17

that you know my intentions are pure and

17:19

your intentions are pure. But since we don't

17:21

really have this and understanding of where we're

17:23

headed, We're. Probably going to frustrate

17:26

one another. so can we go back

17:28

and read, clarify and recommit to the

17:30

fundamentals underneath this and then a good

17:32

leaders gonna? That's a great idea. Because.

17:35

Even really good people are going to

17:37

get frustrated when they're operating under different

17:39

assumptions. I think that's really important. You

17:41

know else I think I think and this gets

17:43

back to the kind truth. If you're try to

17:45

influence your leader. Just. Kind of constantly

17:47

remind them because you know? Listen, I'm not

17:49

gunning for your job and not. Questioning.

17:52

Your your authority or your intellect I just

17:54

have a different perspective and when you can

17:56

remind people of that in the moment I

17:58

think it puts their differ. This is down.

18:01

And you don't I'm not questioning you about

18:03

who you are and what your role is

18:05

your I just have some input for your

18:07

most leaders are gonna say oh yeah, bring

18:09

it on but it's it's not a bad

18:11

thing to anticipate their objections. Because. They

18:13

might be feeling like you know what are you trying to

18:15

say here. Europa. Even

18:17

as you say about and I don't wanna

18:19

be a simple turn a reduction as book

18:21

that will as we have a conversation I

18:23

think it does come back to the bottom

18:26

of the pyramid. Him aside assumptions which is

18:28

trust a bit of your the survey people

18:30

listening to this and say. Hey, do

18:32

you feel like you can and influence your

18:34

leader Yasser know and then to between a

18:36

scale of one to ten how much trust

18:38

you think you have on the team? There's

18:41

a correlation between those answers and when we

18:43

talk about trust that vulnerability based trust I

18:45

just if you the i've heard you say

18:47

this to so many readers like. If

18:49

you don't start with trust your host

18:51

you know like if you can't build

18:53

vulnerability this trust in your team then

18:55

forget about influencing your leader, forget about

18:57

you know having good ideological conflict because

19:00

that really is the foundation And I

19:02

think even as we're exploring this topic

19:04

a little bit that just feels even

19:06

more emphasized for me is like a

19:08

of use you don't trust or that

19:10

that person to ask that question I

19:12

wonder what they're answer to The second

19:14

question would be would be how much

19:16

trust you think the you have vulnerability

19:18

mistrust on a team without. Leader and

19:20

I bet it's. I. Bet it needs

19:22

improvement. To. Great point The vulnerability like

19:24

is that person capable of vulnerability usually and if

19:26

you don't know I never hear him say that

19:28

they they don't know the answer or acknowledge when

19:31

other person smarter than they are. That's.

19:33

That's a decent indication he might not be interested in

19:35

it, but you know something? Try.

19:37

Anyway I have one of the things I

19:40

will say is this be Heroic. In

19:42

your. In your kind truth.

19:45

In the face of uncertainty, be the

19:47

one to say I'm gonna do this

19:49

for the good of the organization and

19:51

for your good. And if you're

19:53

not rewarded for that, it's better to know

19:55

that. Than. It is to never

19:58

have gone there. So. that's of

20:00

what I think. I think in my career, I got shoved into

20:02

the CEO's office a lot and people would say, you tell him

20:04

it was a guy CEO. And I never understood

20:06

why, but he really appreciated the fact that I would tell

20:08

him stuff that other people wouldn't. So

20:11

that's the advice I give. Alrighty, so

20:13

that's the end of our podcast today. Be a

20:15

backseat driver. We all, we need them. Every leader

20:18

needs them. We all need to be one. And

20:20

you know, Cody and Beau, it's up to you guys to

20:23

come up with the unpaid ad today. So what do you

20:25

got for us? Okay, possible controversy

20:27

again in the unpaid ad today

20:29

is unpaid ad is for ramen

20:31

noodles. And I don't mean the

20:33

fancy new every trendy ramen noodles. I mean,

20:35

you go to Walmart and you get a

20:38

20 pack of ramen noodles for $3. And

20:40

they're top

20:44

ramen. Yes, as a food product. There you

20:47

go. Ramen noodles, put a little hot

20:49

water in there and you're ready to go. That

20:51

is how I measure inflation is

20:53

top ramen because it used to be 10

20:55

for $1. And now we're sitting here paying

20:58

at least 20 cents, 25, 30 cents for top ramen. So

21:03

we need to do something about the economy. Thank

21:07

you. Thank you, Cody. We like putting

21:09

like some frozen peas and eggs in

21:11

our top ramen just to really spice

21:14

it up. But we've

21:16

been needing a lot of ramen noodles lately and they're

21:18

fantastic. Beau, do

21:20

you need a raise? I'm

21:23

just wondering. I'm just curious. We could talk about that offline.

21:25

But yes, I'm a big believer in ramen noodles. Most of

21:27

us started eating them in college when

21:29

we had no money and you could actually

21:31

eat them. They're delicious. Go out and get

21:33

some ramen noodles. That's it

21:35

for today, you guys. Thank you very much. We love having

21:37

you on board with us and we'll talk

21:40

to you next time on At the Table. God bless.