0:12

Welcome to the IDC podcast . This

0:15

is Aleko , and I hope you're doing well . There's

0:18

been a lot going on in the world recently

0:20

and I think that coming up with

0:22

an idea for a

0:24

new episode has felt

0:27

challenging , and every

0:29

topic that I've wanted to cover that I've had

0:32

in my list sitting there stagnating

0:34

for a while now , has felt

0:36

trite and perhaps unimaginative

0:39

and unimportant in the

0:41

face of everything that we are seeing

0:43

in the news , ranging from

0:45

the war going on in the Middle East , as

0:48

well as the war in Ukraine and Russia

0:51

, and

0:53

not the least of which would be the

0:55

multiple volcanoes going off around

0:57

the world , which is an unprecedented

0:59

event . I think there's something like well

1:02

, I don't know what the count was the last time , but I

1:04

know Italy , iceland , mexico

1:06

and many places

1:08

in the ring of fire are seeing volcanic

1:11

activity as well as earthquakes , which is a

1:13

sign of volcanic activity to come

1:16

in the Philippines and Indonesia . Discussing

1:23

something like apologetics , which is

1:25

important , feels almost

1:27

passe in light of the fact that

1:30

we are approaching what seems

1:32

to be , by all accounts

1:34

, the end times , and

1:37

while there is indication in the scripture of what

1:39

some of the signs will be before

1:41

the Lord returns as a

1:44

thief in the night to those who are not ready for

1:46

him . There

1:48

have been many people who have tried to create

1:50

parallels with what they see around them

1:52

and what they see in the scripture for centuries

1:54

and have failed miserably . But

1:57

only up until this point have

2:00

most of the boxes been ticked

2:02

, one of the biggest ones being Israel

2:05

returning to the land . So

2:07

, needless to say , we're probably

2:10

close , but there's no way

2:12

to know for sure . Only the Father

2:14

knows . Right At this point , the

2:16

only thing that feels like it matters is showing

2:18

love and compassion

2:21

and doing exactly

2:23

as the Christ has asked us to do . And

2:26

that's not to say that ministry should end

2:29

and that we should not still abide

2:31

and do the will of the Lord . This

2:34

ministry will continue . I will continue

2:36

with apologetics , god-allowing , but

2:39

it is challenging in this time

2:41

. I mean just being very candid , looking

2:43

at everything going on and not

2:45

wanting to just be in prayer

2:48

at all times . So

2:51

, with that being said , I think that there

2:53

was one topic that I thought is

2:55

kind of interesting and

2:57

I have been following since my conversion

3:00

to Christianity , and

3:02

it's something that I've brought up superficially a number

3:04

of times on the podcast and I thought

3:06

it could be fun just to maybe go over it for a few minutes

3:09

and work out some of the

3:11

intricacies

3:13

of that topic , maybe

3:17

superficially Just do

3:19

a cursory glance at it here on

3:21

the IDC podcast . And that's near-death

3:23

experiences , or rather NDEs . My

3:27

introduction , as I said , to NDEs

3:29

did come after I

3:32

was converted and more

3:34

or less I was working late at an office

3:36

in Las Vegas years ago

3:38

and

3:40

the thought came to my mind of whether or

3:42

not anyone had actually experienced

3:46

the afterlife outside of Scripture or

3:48

outside of writings

3:52

of the Holy Fathers , people who had

3:54

perhaps gone to heaven and were

3:56

able to talk about it . And I thought in this day and age

3:58

, especially in our modern times

4:00

, there would be

4:02

more accounts of people who had died and

4:04

come back . Because of modern medicine

4:07

and modern technology , people

4:09

can be revived , they can be resuscitated

4:11

, defibrillators exist . So

4:14

hypothetically , somebody had a heart attack . There

4:17

is potential for them to be revived

4:19

and brought back . So

4:22

surely there had to be some type of evidence

4:25

of something

4:27

. And while

4:30

my faith was very strong in Christ

4:32

and I had a genuine encounter

4:34

with Christ that no one

4:36

had prompted me for and I've gone over

4:38

that as well in this podcast many times

4:40

before where

4:43

I felt his love and

4:45

I knew beyond words

4:47

why everything had happened in my life

4:50

and I

4:53

felt genuine connection to every one

4:55

of the world that I couldn't explain . It was just

4:57

this remarkable feeling that changed

4:59

me forever . To quote

5:01

one of my favorite expositors

5:04

, you

5:06

know , if you have a conversion experience with

5:08

Christ because the same way

5:11

you would know you were hit by a bus it

5:13

changes you forever , and surely

5:16

this did change me forever . So

5:18

, without going too much further on a tangent

5:21

, I more

5:24

or less just wanted to confirm

5:26

my suspicion that at least somebody had

5:29

seen what had gone on in the afterlife

5:31

. It was a long day at work and

5:33

I had finished everything and I was sitting at my desk

5:35

in a quiet little office in Las Vegas

5:38

and I just decided to Google

5:40

the topic and , sure enough

5:42

, a UCLA paper came

5:44

up . Well , I think it was UCLA . It

5:47

was a big university that

5:49

had published a paper with

5:51

a conglomeration

5:54

of multiple NDE

5:56

stories , and the

5:59

paper's way of confirming these

6:01

stories was , you

6:03

know , when the person essentially in each story

6:06

had died . There were items

6:09

set all around this hospital and

6:11

I do believe it was UCLA to

6:14

try to find

6:16

out if people were , if

6:19

they had been floating out of their bodies and moving

6:21

toward light and going to heaven , which is what

6:24

is often what often

6:26

happens in a near-death experience

6:29

. Surely they would be able to see a number of

6:34

people on top of a refrigerator or

6:38

a hidden dog

6:41

toy , perhaps on

6:43

the roof of a hospital or basically

6:46

little items set around , to try

6:48

to maybe add

6:50

some validity to some of these amazing

6:53

stories that people were coming back with

6:55

. And sure enough , in

6:57

many cases people were able

6:59

to confirm spotting these things as

7:02

they were leaving their room and perhaps

7:04

going into the next room above them and the next

7:06

room above that , before

7:08

eventually landing in heaven while

7:11

going through a light tunnel , which is very

7:13

much a

7:15

reoccurring motif in the stories

7:17

going through the light tunnel . So

7:20

I thought , well , that's really interesting , that

7:23

is some type of corroboration

7:26

. That is obviously

7:29

not scientific proof , but

7:31

when you've had the experience

7:33

with Christ , you tend to see him in everything and

7:36

you're open to

7:39

stories , especially ones that have decent

7:42

qualitative data attached to

7:44

them , and that is very

7:46

much the case with NDE's . Going

7:49

a day or two further , some of the things that

7:52

were attached to

7:54

some of these NDE stories were one

7:57

of the experiences that everyone seems to have , or

7:59

most people at least , is this profound

8:01

sense of love , and

8:05

I found that interesting because that is something

8:07

that I encountered during my conversion experience

8:09

, and again , it wasn't something

8:12

anyone prompted me to feel . I was alone

8:14

in my bedroom , I didn't know what

8:16

I was going to encounter when I

8:18

started praying to God and I

8:20

had my conversion experience , but I

8:23

felt this profound and

8:25

unfathomable sense of love , and

8:27

that is what everyone seems to describe

8:29

. And

8:32

there are a few other things and we're going to get into that in maybe

8:34

a little bit more detail here in a second

8:36

. But

8:38

more or less

8:41

there was congruence with their stories

8:43

and my own personal

8:45

accounts of meeting

8:47

the Christ in my room and

8:50

I found that to be very fascinating . I had

8:52

a sort of unspoken kinship with

8:54

some of these people and what they

8:56

had seen and felt . So

8:59

immediately it

9:01

caught my eye and it had been in my periphery

9:03

for a long time as I wrote

9:05

my book , the Pillars of Intelligent Design

9:07

, and as

9:09

I built my case for apologetics

9:12

, I thought you know , nde's , that that's

9:14

one heck of a thing to tackle and

9:16

I hope somebody does at some

9:18

point because it's an extremely

9:20

compelling topic . I

9:23

know that Gary Habermas , who has created

9:25

one of the best arguments for

9:27

the resurrection of the Christ , at least carnally speaking

9:30

, is writing a book

9:33

, a sort of magnum opus , and

9:35

the focal point of the book is

9:38

near-death experiences . And

9:40

I'm looking forward to that when it comes up , because he's

9:43

a very compelling writer and he's got

9:45

some very interesting perspectives , but

9:49

for the time being , I mean , there's a lot

9:51

of material out there that I've been

9:53

able to glean and

9:55

I was curious , you know what kind

9:57

of about , what kind of parallels one

9:59

would find with

10:01

NDE's and the Christian

10:04

experience and what we know in the

10:06

scripture . And as it turns

10:08

out , a lot of the main waypoints

10:10

are there . But before

10:12

I get into them , there's one other semi-story

10:16

it's just a little anecdote that I had which

10:19

really nudged me into

10:21

looking into some of these things , and

10:23

that was the death of my father . So my

10:25

father had ALS , or

10:27

rather Lou Gehrig's disease it's the

10:30

same thing that Stephen Hawking had and

10:32

he eventually died of it . I

10:35

could go a little further and say that he had cancer concomitantly

10:37

with Lou Gehrig's disease . So

10:40

it was a really terrible and slow

10:42

way that he died . That's

10:44

another topic altogether and I wouldn't be glad

10:46

to get into that . But notably

10:50

, he lost the use of his

10:52

right arm for the last , oh

10:55

, I don't know year and a half , two years

10:58

before his passing he

11:00

just , it just went completely limp , and

11:02

my father was a very strong man and he was very

11:05

fit and he was known as an athlete

11:07

. For most of his life he was a runner

11:09

, he was a weightlifter , he was a lot

11:11

of you know , incredible things . But

11:13

it was very sad when he lost

11:16

the use of his right arm and his body

11:18

began deteriorating . As you

11:20

know , it is a degenerative disease and

11:22

he was losing the

11:24

use of multiple limbs , but his right arm

11:27

was one of the first big

11:29

things to go . So

11:32

anyway , the anecdote is it's not a very

11:34

long story , but I

11:36

was in China when this happened , so I didn't

11:38

see it , but my mother and my brother were there and

11:42

they say at the time of his passing he

11:45

looked up in his bed

11:47

. He , I guess , awoke out of slumber and

11:50

he raised his right arm with his

11:52

own power and reached out for something

11:55

and his mouth opened with

11:57

awe and then

12:01

he passed . And while

12:03

it might be meaningless to , let's

12:06

just say , the uninitiated , those who

12:08

are heavily skeptical

12:10

and people have the right to be if they

12:12

would like to be . I

12:14

am firmly convinced

12:17

that he was greeted

12:19

by someone and it wouldn't

12:21

abnegate the merits of many NDE

12:24

stories to agree with that sentiment

12:26

. So accounts of

12:28

near-death experiences are

12:31

by no means restricted to recent

12:33

times , evidently , which was a surprise to me

12:35

. Along with similar

12:37

phenomena , they have been reported

12:39

throughout history , evidently , and

12:41

they have commanded far

12:43

more interest in the last few decades because

12:46

of our ability to revive people . So

12:49

, as mentioned , some of the reoccurring

12:52

motifs are

12:55

someone floating above their body , which is

12:57

a very common occurrence traveling

13:00

through a tunnel of light

13:02

and in some cases a tunnel of darkness , encountering

13:06

or even being welcomed by

13:08

a being of pure light , or

13:11

meeting deceased loved ones

13:13

, hearing incredible

13:15

sounds and music , seeing

13:18

wonderful colors and

13:21

afterwards completely losing the fear

13:23

of death . As is often the

13:25

case with near-death experiences , in

13:29

some cases people are actually shown

13:31

the future of their lives and

13:33

, granted , sometimes

13:35

I think it could be erroneous , but

13:38

in many cases I think it is

13:40

probably accurate , because

13:43

some of the things that people are shown are pretty

13:45

severe and

13:47

very pointed

13:51

in terms of their

13:53

futures . So , for example , I remember one man said

13:55

he was told the exact date that

13:57

he would be diagnosed with cancer , and

14:00

sure enough he was , and

14:02

he overcame it , as he was also told

14:04

what happened . So

14:06

a number of very

14:09

amazing things happened during

14:11

some of these near-death experiences

14:13

. So for many people these

14:16

phenomena alone are enough to

14:18

account for the widespread

14:20

interest currently in near-death experiences

14:22

. But critics sometimes

14:25

charge that even similar sightings

14:27

such as these may indicate nothing

14:29

more than the presence of

14:32

common brain chemistry among

14:34

humans . So analogous experience

14:36

would equate to similar

14:40

function in the brain . According

14:43

to them , perhaps this is simply what happens

14:45

to the human brain when it nears a state

14:48

of personal and final extinction

14:50

. But , to be succinct , the

14:53

theory falls short when

14:55

oftentimes the person

14:58

encountering the near-death experience has

15:00

what we might call complete brain

15:02

shutdown , where there is no activity

15:04

going on , as was the

15:06

case with Dr Eben Alexander

15:09

, someone whom I read about years ago

15:11

and found very compelling . For

15:14

those of you who don't know , dr Eben Alexander was

15:17

an academic neurosurgeon for

15:19

25 years at places

15:21

like the Brigham Women and Children's Hospital

15:24

and Harvard Medical School in Boston

15:26

. Over his academic

15:28

career he authored or co-authored

15:30

over 150 chapters

15:32

and papers in peer-reviewed journals and

15:35

made over 200 presentations

15:37

at conferences and medical centers

15:39

around the world . He thought

15:42

he had a very good idea of how the brain generates

15:44

consciousness , mind and spirit . Yet

15:47

a week spent in a coma due

15:50

to a severe gram-negative

15:52

bacterial meningitis in

15:54

November 2008 changed

15:56

all of that forever . The

15:59

extraordinary spiritual journey

16:01

he experienced that week completely

16:03

defied everything he thought he knew about

16:05

the brain and consciousness , supporting

16:08

an alternative view in which the consciousness

16:10

is fundamental in the universe . His

16:13

original journey was portrayed in the

16:15

international bestseller Proof

16:17

of Heaven , followed by the

16:19

map of heaven describing the commonality

16:22

of such experiences , and

16:24

the much-anticipated sequel to Proof of

16:26

Heaven , entitled Living in a Mindful Universe

16:29

a neurosurgeon's journey into

16:31

the heart of consciousness , which came out on

16:34

October 17th 2017

16:36

. For those of you who haven't read

16:38

any of them , I recommend them . They're actually

16:40

quite interesting . They follow

16:42

his journey from becoming

16:44

completely brain dead to winding up

16:47

in what some would consider

16:49

paradise , and are

16:51

very compelling accounts of what

16:53

we know as heaven . Further , as

16:56

mentioned , some NDE reports are

16:58

accompanied by evidential claims . In

17:01

these cases , the dying person's report data

17:03

that can often be verified . The

17:05

closer the individual is to death and

17:07

the more detailed the evidential report , the

17:10

more able the experiences to

17:12

answering subjective claims

17:14

, like those regarding common brain

17:16

physiology , for example

17:18

. In dozens of NDE accounts . The

17:21

dying person claims that precisely

17:23

during their emergency they

17:25

actually observed events , which were subsequently

17:28

confirmed . These observations

17:30

have occurred in the emergency

17:32

room when the individual was

17:34

in no condition to be observing what was

17:36

going on around them , and sometimes the data

17:38

are reported from a distance away from the scene

17:40

and actually may not have been

17:43

observable from the individual's location

17:45

, even if they had been healthy with

17:47

the normal use of their senses , like

17:49

, for example , watching the surgery

17:51

going on inside the room from

17:53

a completely different vantage point . In

17:57

more evidential cases , the dying person

17:59

reported their observations during extended

18:02

periods of time without any heartbeat . On

18:04

rare occasions , no brain activity

18:07

was present in the individual either . Further

18:10

, blind persons have also

18:12

given accurate descriptions of their

18:14

surroundings , even when they had

18:17

not seen anything either before

18:19

or since . One

18:21

well-documented case involved a little girl

18:23

who had nearly drowned and who did not register

18:26

a pulse for 19 minutes . Her

18:28

emergency room physician , pediatrician

18:31

Melvin Morse , states that he

18:33

quote stood over Katie's

18:35

lifeless body with an intensive care

18:37

unit . An emergency

18:40

CAT scan indicated that Katie had

18:42

massive brain swelling , no

18:44

gag reflex and was profoundly

18:46

comatose . Morse notes

18:49

that quote when I first saw

18:51

her , her pupils were fixed and dilated

18:53

, meaning that irreversible brain

18:56

damage had most likely occurred . Her

18:59

breathing was done by an artificial lung machine

19:01

. She was given very little chance

19:03

of surviving , but

19:05

then , just three days later , katie

19:08

unexpectedly made a full recovery

19:10

. In fact , when she was revived

19:13

, she reproduced an amazing wealth

19:15

of information regarding the emergency room

19:17

, specific details about

19:19

her resuscitation , along

19:21

with physical descriptions of the

19:23

two physicians who worked on her . All

19:26

this occurred while she was completely comatose

19:28

and most likely without any brain

19:30

function whatsoever . As

19:33

Morse recounts , a child with

19:35

Katie's symptoms should have

19:37

the absence of any brain function and

19:39

therefore should not comprehend anything

19:41

. It took her almost

19:44

an hour to recall all the details . However

19:47

, part of the story made no sense in

19:49

usual medical terms . Katie

19:51

related that during her comatose state

19:53

she was visited by an angel

19:55

named Elizabeth , who allowed

19:57

her to look in on her family at home

19:59

. Katie correctly reported

20:02

very specific details concerning

20:04

what her siblings were doing , even

20:06

identifying a popular rock song

20:08

that her sister listened to , watched

20:11

her father and then observed her mom who

20:13

cooked a meal that she correctly

20:15

identified roast chicken and

20:17

rice . She described

20:19

the clothing and positions of her family

20:22

members . Later she

20:24

shocked her parents by telling them these details

20:26

that it occurred only a few days

20:28

before . So attempts have

20:30

been made to provide natural explanations

20:33

of NDE accounts . Medical

20:35

factors such as oxygen deprivation

20:37

or temporal lobe seizures have been suggested

20:40

, as have physiological

20:42

causes such as hallucinations or faulty

20:44

memory . However , in addition

20:47

to the medical and other shortcomings

20:49

in each case , each of these

20:51

subjective approaches shares

20:53

at least one major common problem Because

20:57

they deal with internal conditions

20:59

relative to the individual , they

21:01

are unable to account for particular

21:03

observations of the external sort , such

21:06

as the one just mentioned , where

21:08

evidential reports are confirmed . This

21:11

is especially the case when the evidence

21:13

occurs from a distance away . So

21:16

just briefly , I'll maybe

21:18

ask the question do NDEs

21:20

conflict with biblical beliefs

21:23

? I don't believe so , but

21:25

there are indeed NDEs

21:28

that I think to be sometimes

21:30

exaggerated or possibly

21:32

even erroneous or attention seeking

21:35

, and while that is the case , I

21:37

think more often than not

21:39

they are legitimate . I

21:41

think some of the more compelling aspects

21:44

of the NDEs , as mentioned before , are encountering

21:47

a being of pure light . The

21:49

theme of encountering a bright light or

21:52

a being of pure light is not explicitly

21:54

mentioned in the New Testament . However

21:57

, the Bible does contain a

21:59

reference to divine light , such as the

22:01

transfiguration of Jesus , where

22:04

his face shown like the sun in Matthew

22:06

17 , one through 13

22:08

. Oftentimes , when

22:10

people encounter the Christ in

22:13

these NDE stories , they say not

22:16

only that he radiates unimaginable

22:18

love , but that

22:20

he is very

22:22

bright , with a

22:24

light that should be blinding and

22:27

that's sometimes also seen in the tunnel

22:29

that one travels through to get to

22:31

this heavenly place . There's

22:33

also unconditional love and acceptance

22:36

felt in many of these near-death

22:38

experience stories , and

22:40

that shouldn't be a stretch for one to connect

22:43

the dots on . So the New Testament emphasizes

22:45

the concept of God's unconditional

22:48

love and acceptance , of course Obviously

22:50

. For example , the parable of the prodigal son

22:52

in Luke 15 , 11 through 32 , which

22:55

illustrates the idea of a forgiving

22:58

and welcoming father , which aligns with

23:00

the sense of unconditional love

23:02

reported in NDEs Encounters

23:06

with deceased loved ones . So while the

23:08

New Testament contains accounts

23:10

of individuals encountering angels and

23:12

heavenly beings , direct

23:14

encounters with deceased loved ones is

23:16

not really reported

23:18

in the New Testament or

23:20

the Old Testament that I can think of . But

23:23

oftentimes in these NDEs people are also

23:25

given a sense of purpose , or rather a mission

23:28

at the very end , and the New Testament

23:30

contains numerous passages emphasizing

23:32

the importance of purpose and a mission

23:34

in Christian life . For example

23:36

, jesus is commissioned to his disciples in

23:39

Matthew 28 , 19 through

23:41

20 , which highlights to make

23:43

disciples of all the nations

23:46

. One interesting thing I

23:48

hadn't considered , though , is that near-death phenomena

23:50

may be reported of

23:52

sorts in the Bible . For example

23:55

, in Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus

23:57

, we are told that the beggar

23:59

Lazarus died and was carried

24:01

by angels into paradise in Luke

24:04

1622 . A

24:06

brief process that sounds somewhat

24:08

similar to contemporary reports

24:11

. Just before being

24:13

stoned to death , stephen , a righteous

24:15

leader in the early church , saw a vision

24:17

of the glorifying Jesus standing

24:19

at God's right hand in Acts 7.55

24:22

through 56 . The apostle

24:25

Paul explains that he had an experience

24:27

during which he was unsure whether or not he

24:29

was out of his body

24:31

or in his body when he visited

24:33

the third heaven in 2

24:35

Corinthians 12 , 1 through 5

24:38

. Some commentators think that

24:40

the timing of this event coincides

24:42

with Paul being stoned and

24:44

left for dead during his trip to Lystra

24:47

in Acts 1419

24:49

. Paul also experienced

24:51

several other occasions when he was

24:53

near death's door . Admittedly

24:56

, some tough questions remain in relation

24:58

to this topic . For example , non-christians

25:01

have described very positive experiences

25:04

during near-death episodes . Rarely

25:07

do they mention judgment , however

25:09

. Since these individuals were not biologically

25:12

, or rather irreversibly dead , but

25:15

near-death , we can hardly

25:17

ascertain their eternal state of

25:19

existence in the future . Further

25:22

, when near-death survivors

25:24

describe what they often take to be

25:26

their experiences of heaven or hell , they

25:29

have moved beyond the more mundane

25:31

reports of events surrounding them on earth

25:33

. Thus , they are not describing

25:35

their perception of common everyday events in

25:38

their vicinity , but their

25:40

personal interpretations of another reality

25:42

altogether Beyond this

25:44

, it is crucial to note that in cases

25:46

where heaven or hell are portrayed , very

25:49

little evidence is ever provided , so

25:52

verifying some perceptions would

25:54

be exceptionally difficult . For

25:57

the record , however , exceptionally negative

25:59

, even ghastly experiences , including

26:02

graphic visions of hellfire , have

26:05

also been mentioned during hell

26:07

NDE's . One

26:10

of the last motifs that I haven't brought up yet

26:12

is the sense of timelessness that people

26:14

tend to encounter in

26:17

their death experience , where they don't

26:19

know if a minute or five years have

26:21

passed because they are outside

26:24

of space-time . This one isn't

26:26

a stretch as well , as there are many

26:28

examples in scripture , but one that comes

26:31

to mind immediately is Isaiah

26:34

57-15 . With

26:37

us , says the high and lofty one who

26:40

lives in eternity . The

26:42

holy one says this I

26:44

live in thy and holy place with

26:46

those whose spirits are contrite

26:48

and humble . I restore the crushed

26:51

spirit of the humble and revive the courage

26:53

of those with repentant hearts . Taking

26:56

it a step further , if one were to look into

26:59

the cosmological proof for God

27:01

, which was , I would say , popularized

27:03

by Thomas Aquinas in

27:07

analogous , or rather similar

27:09

, terms , researchers

27:11

have tried to explain

27:13

, or rather define the

27:15

undefinable and explain

27:18

in again analogous terms what

27:20

God might be like , and one

27:22

of the major conclusions is that

27:24

if there were an all-powerful

27:26

being responsible for

27:28

every atom in the universe , that

27:31

being our

27:33

God , would have to exist outside

27:35

of space-time as we know it . And

27:38

while I can't summarize that here

27:40

in just a few seconds , more astute

27:42

philosophical mind probably

27:44

could . I would recommend looking

27:46

into Ed Faser , more specifically

27:48

his five proofs of the existence of

27:50

God book , where he breaks

27:52

down the concept beautifully . It

27:55

is quite a read , though , so take your time

27:57

with it . So , in

27:59

summary , while the

28:02

evidence and the data is by

28:04

no means concrete on what

28:06

people encounter or will encounter after

28:08

death , there is very compelling

28:11

reason to believe

28:13

that in some

28:15

to many of these near-death experience

28:18

stories , there are

28:20

direct parallels with what we know to be

28:22

true . Above all , seek

28:25

God and trust him first and foremost

28:27

. If you have questions on these things , and

28:30

if you do look into some of these

28:33

stories , these

28:35

anecdotes that have been recorded

28:37

. They can be edifying from time

28:39

to time , but glean carefully

28:42

and prayerfully the information

28:44

that you take from them . Thank

28:54

you , welcome

29:07

to the Intelligent Design Collective Book Club where

29:10

we are finishing Dr

29:12

Richard Gallagher's demonic foes

29:15

. This is Aleko , and before

29:17

I introduce my friends , we're

29:19

gonna start with an opening prayer . Heavenly

29:23

Father , bless our

29:25

book club and the discussion that

29:27

we have , and everyone who's with us

29:29

and everyone who's listening , and

29:31

our friends and our family and our enemies Watch

29:34

over us and guide our conversation . Thank

29:37

you for allowing us to come together and

29:39

, if you would allow many

29:41

more of these , in Christ's name , we pray

29:43

, okay

29:47

, so who is with us ? Who

29:49

is joining us ?

29:53

I'm Darren and I'm on the west coast

29:55

of British Columbia and

29:59

I just woke up . So there you go , are

30:03

you ? The weather reporter .

30:06

It's Brian in the northeast of England , so I've

30:08

been awake . Well , I get up

30:10

several hours ago and after

30:12

lunch I had a little snooze . I had to check with Aleko

30:15

exactly what time it is , whether I was going to be able

30:17

to fit in my siesta before

30:19

this book club started , but I

30:21

managed to grab 40-45 minutes

30:23

, so that was good

30:25

.

30:26

I don't know if I can't nap . If I nap

30:28

I just wake up on Mars , so

30:30

my head is just completely out of it . So you can

30:32

come from a nap and just be perfectly

30:35

ready to go .

30:36

I'll let you be the judge of that in 30

30:39

minutes .

30:40

Okay , I actually just saw . I

30:45

only read the title and made an assumption

30:47

. But I saw the title of an article that

30:49

said people who nap may have bigger brains

30:51

.

30:53

Guilty as charged . Okay

31:06

, okay .

31:07

I would be the diametric opposite of that

31:09

. So , yeah , yeah

31:13

, I think I typically do things , maybe

31:16

the way Darren did this morning , more often

31:18

than I should , where , if

31:20

I know I have to be some place , say at

31:22

eight o'clock or seven o'clock

31:24

, I'll be up six o'clock and

31:27

you know I'll have everything ready

31:29

the night before . So all my clothes

31:31

will be ironed and ready and laid out and just

31:34

rinse my face , brush my teeth , down

31:37

, some coffee out the door , so Alright

31:42

, so we're discussing

31:44

the final few chapters of

31:46

Dr Richard Gallagher's demonic

31:49

foes , and I thought

31:51

there was some pretty compelling stuff in here

31:53

and I'm keen to hear

31:55

what everyone else says . I

31:57

will request that you guys kick me if I forget

31:59

to read what Hillary wrote . I always do this

32:02

. So Hillary

32:04

did send in some of her thoughts and I'm

32:06

interested to hear what she had to say as well

32:08

. So , yeah , perhaps

32:10

we'll begin with . Brian , did you have a favorite

32:12

part of the reading ?

32:15

Yeah , so I think in chapter

32:17

12 he

32:19

says it

32:23

relates to the story of being interviewed

32:26

by he doesn't name the scientific

32:28

magazine , but he says quite a well-known scientific

32:31

magazine in the

32:33

US .

32:36

I gotta go get Noah a second . I'll be

32:38

back in like three minutes , sure , yeah

32:40

you can splice it to you ?

32:42

Yeah , we can splice it . Do you want to wait , brian

32:44

? We can . We can wait here .

32:46

Yes , no problems , we can do

32:48

that , I'm bad

32:51

.

32:52

One of the most beautiful train rides I've ever done was

32:54

Seattle to Vancouver . That was

32:56

really nice , yeah , and

32:59

when we came in I don't know if I've ever told this story before

33:01

, but when we came in to the Vancouver train station

33:03

there were Nazi

33:06

flags hanging from the train

33:08

station everywhere and

33:10

there were people wearing Nazi

33:12

uniforms . And

33:14

it was when it comes in it's very

33:16

, very slow . So we had a moment to just stare

33:19

out the window Nazi flag , like

33:21

the full-on Nazi flags hanging from

33:23

from the train station , and what we found

33:25

out was they were filming a TV show

33:27

about . It was this alternate

33:29

reality TV show about how , what

33:31

happened if the Nazis won and took

33:33

over , and I forgot what it's called

33:36

. It was actually kind of popular for a minute where

33:40

I guess the Nazis controlled the east

33:42

coast of America and the Japanese

33:44

controlled the west coast . But

33:46

we watched one episode of it

33:48

and it was complete fiction because

33:50

it depicted the Nazis as

33:52

you know , whatever . The Hollywood version of

33:54

the Nazis is kind of cold and calculating

33:57

and , you know , heartless and blah , blah , blah . And

33:59

then the next scene , the opening scene . It completely

34:01

lost me because it showed

34:04

a white woman with blonde hair

34:06

sparring karate

34:09

, sparring with the Japanese and

34:11

basically it was , it

34:13

was what was the word , it was when

34:17

it's , it's something

34:19

that is something that

34:21

is depicted inaccurately historically

34:23

. It was anachronistic . It was anachronistic

34:26

because they depicted

34:28

the Japanese as they are now and

34:30

not the Japanese as they were during World War

34:32

two , where , if you've , you

34:34

know , if you've even read a copy of the

34:37

rape of Nanking or something , and

34:39

you saw what they did to their enemies . It

34:41

was like I clearly

34:44

, you know , whoever , whoever wrote

34:46

this was a , you know , failed out of history

34:48

or something , because the , the Japanese of World

34:50

War two were ruthless , they were horrible

34:53

. So , okay , that

34:55

was a big tangent , but yeah , anyways my

34:59

apologies for interrupting no , no

35:01

, it's good , it's good , it's good . Okay

35:04

, so swinging

35:08

back into things . Yeah , let's , brian

35:11

. Did you have a favorite part of

35:14

the final reading of of

35:16

demonic foes by dr Richard

35:18

Gallagher ?

35:19

I did so . Dr Gallagher's

35:21

relays in chapter 12

35:24

, when he was approached by

35:26

a science journal and

35:28

sent a reporter , interviewed

35:30

him and seemed to be quite

35:33

interested about

35:35

what he had to say on the subject

35:37

. But to

35:39

his to dr Gallagher's disappointment

35:41

the article never , never reached publication

35:44

, and he

35:46

surmises that because this was a scientific journal

35:48

and they were talking about spiritual

35:52

things , which many people perhaps

35:54

. He surmises that the reason it didn't publish it was

35:56

that many of the audience would

35:58

not have reacted well to having an article

36:00

on things which many of

36:02

the so-called scientists would just not

36:04

have accepted as being having any reality

36:06

and therefore they didn't want

36:08

to jeopardize their readership by doing

36:10

that . But he concludes then

36:12

that in many ways the world is

36:14

better off when we separate

36:18

between , sticking

36:20

to distance between the physical

36:23

and spiritual realms . So

36:25

I think after his initial disappointment

36:27

he said maybe it is better to have a clear

36:29

distinction between those things that are physical

36:32

and scientific and those things that are

36:34

of the spiritual realm

36:36

. And as I think we've

36:38

come across in other books , he

36:41

makes the point when experts in one field

36:43

try and think that

36:45

their expertise in the scientific field allows

36:48

them to pronounce on spiritual issues , we

36:50

can do all sorts of trouble .

36:52

Sure , yeah , that was my favorite bit

36:54

and let me ask you something what do you think

36:56

, if we're being intellectually honest here and

36:59

I think I know what the superficial reason

37:01

is , but what do you think that the genuine

37:03

reason is ? People have such an aversion to

37:05

the spiritual

37:08

when it comes to publications

37:11

like that .

37:15

Yeah , because I think certainly

37:18

our Western education system is very much

37:20

predicated on repeatability

37:22

and doing experiments , some

37:25

rigorous process , and this

37:29

stuff isn't . You can't tell a spirit

37:31

to perform something

37:34

and then have it repeatable and all the rest of it

37:36

. So I just think , therefore , because it doesn't

37:38

fall into the material

37:40

world , they say well , therefore it doesn't exist

37:42

, they don't have any cognizance of that

37:45

. There is completely different realm where things are

37:47

not bumping by the normal physical

37:50

, material rules of the game . So

37:53

that's my opinion .

37:54

Yeah , I would also add I think part

37:57

of it is that this article

37:59

I would suspect it's because it's from

38:01

a Western perspective . So

38:03

if you explore

38:06

, say like , the spiritual realm from the perspective

38:08

of

38:11

someone who's not Western oriented , it

38:13

can be considered as it can be more accepted

38:15

because it's kind of like a cultural exploration

38:18

and something . But because it's from a Western

38:20

perspective it's kind of like no , no , we've moved

38:22

past that and now we're in a very physical

38:27

, materialistic world and

38:30

we're not going to embrace this sort

38:32

of nonsense and in our journals it's

38:34

.

38:36

Sure , yeah , it's almost super-slicious and

38:38

therefore it just doesn't exist

38:40

. It's not that there's any quarter

38:42

given to the possibility that these things might exist

38:44

, yeah you

38:47

know .

38:47

I think obviously you're both

38:49

very right . I

38:51

also think that there's another component

38:53

that I'm sure you're aware of as well , and

38:56

I think it stems from watching a lot of Richard

38:58

Dawkins material , reading

39:00

his publications and things like that , and

39:02

as I've gotten to know his stuff

39:04

, I've seen more and more

39:06

that If

39:09

one were to be a bit reductionist and

39:11

sort of combine everything that he said , there's

39:14

a very personal

39:17

vendetta toward Christianity

39:19

. Because if I'm not mistaken I don't

39:22

want to misspeak here , so people should probably

39:24

look this up he was actually

39:26

abused by a

39:28

vicar or a . I'm

39:30

not sure what exactly happened , I

39:33

don't even know if he was very clear about what it

39:35

was , but someone who

39:37

was a member of Clergy , I think , maybe

39:39

touched him or maybe did something inappropriate with him , and

39:41

the way he recalls it he says oh , it's just

39:43

a meaningless thing , it

39:46

was just , you know too , biological life

39:48

, for he

39:50

has a very cold way

39:52

of describing it . But

39:56

it's very clear that something

39:58

happened and that there's a very

40:00

personal vendetta , understandably . And I think that with

40:02

a lot of people it's sort of a

40:06

reduced version of that or

40:09

somewhere on the spectrum where they just see it as this

40:11

saccharine thing , and

40:14

when they see it , maybe something about the way they grew up and

40:18

they were around a really cheesy phony

40:20

pastor , so to speak , or

40:22

priest or whatever , and they just don't want it in their lives

40:24

. So I agree

40:27

that the repeatability from a scientific perspective I think is

40:29

For me , I think it's the superficial reason , it's

40:33

the veil , and a lot of the foundational

40:35

reason is just bad

40:37

experience with religion growing up , perhaps , whether

40:40

it be something very severe and where a law was

40:42

broken , or maybe

40:44

just and it's just pure assumption

40:47

. Obviously there's not a

40:49

lot of thought going into that , but

40:51

just Okay

40:53

, let's see . Darren

40:55

, did you have a favorite part of the reading

40:57

?

41:00

Yeah . So my favorite

41:02

part is where he again from chapter 12

41:05

, he

41:07

discusses the role of

41:09

exorcists and sort

41:13

of experts or practitioners in

41:16

the spiritual realm and

41:19

he brings up this

41:21

great Latin phrase

41:23

, which is probably going to butcher the pronunciation here , but abusis non tolla

41:25

to usum , and

41:30

it basically is that

41:33

just because there

41:35

can be a flawed

41:37

use of some sort

41:39

of thing or role , that

41:45

a proper practitioner

41:47

of that use should be banned

41:50

. And I think what he's getting , or

41:52

prohibited , I guess . Yeah , so I think what

41:54

he's getting at here is this

41:57

kind of trend that we've

42:00

seen , certainly , I can say

42:02

, in Canada . It's been a big thing where

42:04

, if Let

42:08

me give an example so there's

42:11

this whole idea of conversion

42:15

therapy with homosexuality

42:18

, where churches

42:20

would hold these kind

42:23

of counseling , sometimes even group

42:25

counseling sessions that

42:28

deal with counseling and prayer and

42:31

that sort of thing , to basically

42:34

relieve and counsel someone

42:36

from same-sex urges . And

42:38

it usually is when that individual

42:41

is has

42:44

asked for the counseling and is really

42:46

struggling with this , because

42:48

they're aware that it is , say

42:51

, a sin and missing

42:55

the objective

42:57

in God's created order , let's say , for

43:00

the role of , say , a man and a woman , and

43:03

so they've asked their priest

43:05

or pastor to do this counseling

43:08

with them and in

43:10

some cases it is

43:12

successful and it provides people with a lot

43:15

of relief , and in other cases it

43:17

was

43:19

not handled correctly and

43:22

people have

43:24

had very bad experiences with

43:26

it and the response

43:28

has been basically in Canada that now

43:31

you cannot do any

43:33

kind of conversion therapy or

43:35

counseling or anything that even could be construed

43:37

to be that , and there's massive

43:40

monetary penalties that you can get

43:43

. They're absolutely

43:45

absurd and

43:47

you can also it

43:51

would risk your church's charitable

43:54

status and they have all these

43:56

sorts of things that they've come up with . And

43:58

I think with what he's getting at here

44:00

is he's concerned that

44:02

there could be also a movement

44:05

to ban exorcisms as being

44:07

this sort of culturally

44:09

unacceptable practice and

44:11

because well

44:14

before that he relays a story of

44:16

a pastor in a , I

44:18

think , a Protestant or Lutheran church

44:20

who was quite

44:23

cocky about performing an

44:25

exorcism and it went very , very poorly

44:27

and

44:29

caused some physical

44:32

damage to both the priest and

44:34

other people in the room and that sort of thing . So

44:36

yeah it , I

44:41

love that phrase because it's being

44:43

very careful about how

44:46

we view things and practices and making sure

44:48

that people are properly

44:50

trained and properly performing things

44:53

, and I think it's even very

44:55

true in the psychological

44:58

and in the spiritual realm , because we don't

45:00

have a great understanding of how these

45:02

things work .

45:05

Yeah , really good points , really good points .

45:10

Yeah , I think it's very noticeable all the way through the

45:12

book that it comes across , even though he's got

45:14

many years experience and is obviously

45:16

an intelligent , well-educated

45:18

guy , that he remains quite

45:22

skeptical and quite humble in many ways what

45:24

it comes across , which really certainly

45:27

in my perspective , gives much greater

45:29

weight to what he's saying than if he was

45:31

bombastic and saying well , I

45:33

, because of my experience , I know these things for certain

45:35

man .

45:36

So yeah , yeah

45:38

, I'd agree . I mean , when

45:40

I read parts of these books , and

45:42

or parts of this book and these stories

45:44

in that he shares in the book , I

45:47

can't help but think that he's about

45:50

as baffled by them as the

45:52

reader would be .

45:55

Absolutely absolutely .

45:57

That particular part of the reading played out like

45:59

a movie in my head . You

46:02

know , the cocky

46:04

pastor goes in there to try it first and what

46:06

do you get ? Thrown across the room by a woman

46:08

. That was quite funny . But

46:11

yeah , yeah , I

46:13

definitely . I think

46:15

that there's

46:19

a lot to say on the idea of doing

46:22

it the Protestant way or

46:24

the more formal way , perhaps like

46:26

Catholics or Orthodox . I think

46:28

it's a huge conversation , but I

46:31

don't necessarily disagree with the

46:33

Protestant man . I think he had the right intentions

46:35

. But there

46:39

does tend to be speaking

46:42

from a completely neutral standpoint

46:44

, especially when you get into the American church

46:46

, where it's a little bit more liberal . There

46:49

does tend to be an arrogance

46:51

there that's misguided and

46:54

I think it leads to a lot of issues . But

46:56

I mean , that's a massive conversation

46:58

, isn't it ? So Okay

47:01

, let's see Hillary's

47:04

favorite part of the reading . Let

47:06

me just I've got to kind of look around

47:08

my camera here . I've got a big

47:10

screen , but I put the camera

47:13

in front of the screen and

47:15

let's see . Okay , so

47:17

I think she wrote page 226 . It

47:21

is easier to believe that there might have

47:23

been a definitive event that explains

47:26

their problems rather than a complex mix

47:28

of vulnerabilities and multiple causes

47:30

. The same is true

47:32

in many situations , and it makes it harder

47:35

to resolve them . That is why conspiracy

47:37

theories are so popular . So

47:41

popular , an easy solution to

47:43

a complex problem yeah

47:46

, really good point .

47:50

I think , if I'm not right , this was sort

47:52

of in the context where they

47:55

were talking about you know what was it ? Sras

47:57

was the acronym . They used Satanic

48:01

ritual abuse . They were saying that

48:03

there were sex

48:05

and they dealt with . Many people were

48:08

trying to look at there was some

48:10

kind of reason for these demonic abuses . And

48:12

then they were trying

48:14

to figure out how much satanic

48:17

ritual abuse there was . And I

48:19

think he said , well , yes , there is some

48:21

, but it's often

48:23

looked for as the one cause

48:25

and it's not that simple and it's not that common

48:27

. So what does happen is , fairly he

48:30

seemed to summarize it's not that frequent and

48:32

it shouldn't be jumping to that as

48:35

a simple solution or a simple cause

48:37

of many of these

48:40

possessions . Sure .

48:43

My thought personally . This

48:46

is just an opinion , but I

48:49

think that Dr Gallagher

48:51

, throughout the book , tends to divorce

48:53

physical

48:58

issues and spiritual issues

49:00

and says that there's not one

49:02

blanket solution for all of them , and

49:05

I understand the merits of that argument . But

49:08

I personally feel that , especially

49:11

after reading Miracles by Dr Craig

49:13

Keener and

49:16

a couple of other books to supplement

49:18

that , that there is

49:20

some

49:22

type of and I think we discussed this maybe the last time we

49:24

got together some type of spiritual

49:27

foundation for everything that

49:30

we have in our lives . And

49:32

it's not to say that the person is sinful or

49:34

maybe it's a demonic spirit or something

49:36

like that , but that

49:39

all of these things find their origination

49:42

in spiritual realm . And

49:46

I have what I feel

49:48

is good reason to believe that . But I think I

49:52

don't know , and it's another big , big conversation

49:55

you know we stand at the

49:57

foot of but I tend

49:59

to think that there is spiritual reason for most

50:01

things , that if not all things , it's

50:04

just not all some crazy

50:06

demonic possession perhaps Oops , or I'll

50:10

get off my soapbox . Okay

50:15

, with regard to favorite

50:18

part of the reading from

50:21

me , looking

50:24

at my notes right now , I think

50:26

the quote , the Latin

50:28

phrase that Darren brought up . I thought that was

50:30

really fun . That you

50:33

know , misusing something doesn't abnegate

50:35

the merits of the correct use of a thing

50:37

you know . Like pouring a cup

50:39

of water on your head shouldn't shouldn't

50:42

mean that you're not to use it . I don't use cups anymore

50:44

, that you know . Cups still have a very good

50:46

function . Oh

50:50

, and one of my favorite quotes the author brought

50:53

up from a movie

50:55

I can't recall which movie it was which

50:58

was people that cease

51:00

to believe in God tend to believe in everything

51:02

else . I

51:05

think that's very true in society . Oftentimes

51:08

when you see somebody

51:10

who denounces

51:15

especially the Christian God

51:17

there into

51:19

other stuff that maybe

51:21

fills that void , whatever

51:24

it may be drugs or

51:26

the occult , or horoscopes

51:28

or whatever it is . I

51:31

think that's very common in Western society

51:33

. I don't know if you guys agree with that or not , but yeah

51:36

.

51:39

Yep , yeah , it tends to be a void that

51:41

people like to fill with something

51:43

, that's for sure .

51:46

Okay , so let's see opinions

51:49

changed , brian .

51:55

Yeah , so suppose something new . For me

51:57

. This was in chapter nine where

52:01

he talked a bit about , you know

52:04

, the horrible situation of human sacrifices

52:07

tended to be , tended to be practiced

52:09

in quite a lot of societies

52:11

. But what I didn't appreciate

52:14

was what he said was that

52:16

Romans and Greeks , in

52:18

agreement with Hebrews , believed

52:20

human sacrifice was debased and

52:23

they even fought a war with Carthage over

52:25

this . So

52:27

, very briefly , when I was at school I did a Latin

52:30

and we did a little bit about the Carthaginian Wars

52:32

, but either I hadn't remembered

52:34

or I'd never been taught that one

52:36

of the reasons for this was , according

52:39

to Dr Gallacher , that

52:42

the Romans and the Greeks had moved on from the belief

52:44

that human sacrifice was an acceptable way of appeasing the spirit

52:46

world , and

52:48

to such an extent that they were willing to go

52:50

to war with the Carthaginians because

52:52

they still practiced that . So

52:55

that was something that I never

52:57

appreciated or never knew before , hadn't come

52:59

across .

53:00

Yeah , it's a really interesting point . I don't

53:02

know if I agree with it , just simply based on my

53:04

upbringing and the amount of times my father

53:06

tried to sacrifice me , but my

53:10

father being Greek for anyone who doesn't know , alright

53:17

, darren , any opinions changed ?

53:20

Yeah , the part that I thought

53:24

was quite new to me was

53:27

his writing on

53:29

basically how Freud and Osterike wrestled with this kind

53:31

of psychological explanation for everything versus the spiritual

53:34

aspect of the and

53:38

particularly Osterike he had . It sounds like he was

53:40

a bit of a student of Freud and he had

53:43

a lot of ideas about trances and other

53:45

behaviors that he felt

53:47

came from

53:49

a sort of psychiatric foundation

53:52

or psychiatric cause , such as like emotional distress

53:54

and things like

53:56

that . But then he was very

53:58

aware of , but could never explain

54:01

, things like people levitating and

54:03

he was very , very , very

54:05

and

54:11

he wrote about this and basically he is only abajo

54:13

on any kind of historical roots and roots

54:15

or hang transitions and

54:17

so forth . Um

54:27

, so then he И como browse through all

54:29

the links in those links that may

54:31

be found under Basic . He wrote

54:34

about this and basically

54:36

he ultimately

54:39

so this is Ostrich then decided

54:42

that there has to be a plausible

54:45

explanation for these things that go

54:47

beyond just the material

54:49

and psychiatric field

54:51

and that go into a

54:54

supernatural phenomenon

54:57

like that

54:59

is basically paranormal . And

55:02

yeah , I thought that was interesting

55:04

. It's definitely not when

55:08

you go to university and you take , like the

55:11

earlier years of psychology and

55:15

inevitably you come into

55:17

writings about Freud

55:19

and that generation of

55:21

the Austrian and German psychologists

55:25

. They don't discuss

55:27

this at all . So

55:29

I thought that was very new and interesting and

55:31

sort of changed my perspective on

55:33

it a little bit , that

55:37

these early psychologists

55:40

were aware that there was something

55:42

abnormal about

55:44

certain aspects of human

55:47

behavior .

55:49

Sure , yeah , very good points . Yeah

55:53

, I would have nothing to add to that . But , yeah , good points , very

55:55

good points . All

55:58

right , hillary , writing on

56:00

opinions changed . She wrote page

56:02

245 . More significantly

56:04

, the anecdote illustrates that there

56:07

is a dark world out there that seems

56:09

to know a lot , hardly only

56:11

about me , but about each of us . It

56:14

despises us poor mortals and

56:16

is strangely invested in misleading and

56:18

harming us . It is not a

56:20

subject that I ever touched upon

56:22

growing up . Yeah

56:25

, I think what's really interesting is the

56:27

scripture constantly goes on about

56:29

just

56:31

how many beings there are in the spirit

56:34

world . I mean , christ says

56:36

that we're going to be judged , or sorry

56:38

. We have an innumerable cloud

56:40

of witnesses around us . And

56:42

there's

56:45

another verse in the Old Testament I'm terrible

56:47

at quoting the Bible , but it was something

56:50

of the like where it referred to

56:52

just how many angelic

56:55

beings there are surrounding us . That

56:57

it's not this quaint little

56:59

thing where there's just one fluffy white angel maybe

57:01

standing in the room , but

57:03

I think it's a very fascinating topic

57:05

definitely .

57:10

Yeah , and when I was reading

57:12

about that I couldn't

57:14

help but think about the difference between the

57:17

Protestant perspective on

57:20

the spiritual realm versus the Catholic

57:22

and Orthodox perspective . So in

57:25

the Protestant world there's

57:27

very little discussion

57:30

of any kind of spirit

57:32

other than the Holy

57:34

Spirit , and even that is , I think

57:36

, depends on which

57:38

branch of Protestantism you're in . In certain

57:40

branches that particularly

57:42

lead more like charismatic ones , it's very

57:45

prevalent , and then in other

57:47

branches , like

57:49

Calvinism , it's

57:52

almost not discussed at all . But

57:54

then on the other side you have Catholics

57:57

and Orthodox who have

58:00

prayers to guardian

58:02

angels , who

58:05

very much believe

58:07

that there are evil spirits

58:09

and pray for protection from those

58:12

evil spirits . And it

58:14

was . I've

58:16

recently become

58:18

Eastern Orthodox and

58:21

it's been quite eye-opening

58:23

to see some of these differences in

58:27

the thinking on the spiritual realm .

58:30

So you're a card-carrying member officially

58:32

now .

58:35

Catacuman .

58:35

Okay , Catacuman . Yeah , they

58:37

haven't taught you the secret handshake yet .

58:40

No , not yet Okay okay , very

58:45

good .

58:46

Good stuff , good stuff . Yeah

58:48

, it's a very interesting point that you bring up . Yeah

58:50

, it's , I

58:53

mean really nothing to add to it . But yeah , I

58:55

think you're right . I have attended a few Protestant

58:57

services and the only conversation of

59:00

course I

59:03

think it's not a bad

59:05

thing , the only conversation is the Holy Spirit . But

59:08

we are spiritual beings living

59:10

in a physical world and , yeah

59:12

, it is a big part of the theology

59:15

of the scripture and of the

59:19

Orthodox church and Catholic church that

59:21

, yeah , they're everywhere

59:23

, there's life everywhere . All

59:27

right , let's see , I

59:33

didn't have any opinions changed on

59:35

this one , but I definitely have some

59:37

things for the next bit , so I'll maybe add in . I'll

59:39

chime in there . Let's see

59:41

questions or objections , brian

59:44

.

59:46

Okay , so let's try to find

59:49

it . There's somewhere that he says

59:51

about foretelling the

59:53

future , that basically

59:56

, when you go to a fortune

59:58

teller and they claim to have

1:00:00

some sort of a team

1:00:03

Demon or team access

1:00:05

to a spirit that can tell you the future , dr

1:00:08

Gallagher seems and says that you know

1:00:10

they can't tell the future because you

1:00:13

know demons , spirits , are not able to tell

1:00:15

the future , and I'm

1:00:18

Not sure where . I'm

1:00:21

not an expert in this area of any means , but

1:00:23

I'm not sure where he , why he says that so categorically

1:00:26

. I'm not sure the Bible says

1:00:28

anything about it . No

1:00:30

, I know there's a . There's a case , isn't there ? Where

1:00:32

Is it ? Paul gets

1:00:35

into trouble where he casts out a

1:00:37

demon of a woman who makes

1:00:39

quite a living for her master by

1:00:41

sort of telling

1:00:43

you , for telling people's future

1:00:45

, and Because Paul casts

1:00:48

out the demon , then the master gets

1:00:50

very upset with them and as I'm thrown in prison , I

1:00:52

think that's maybe an accident , apostles . So

1:00:54

you know . That doesn't definitely say that

1:00:56

you know , because Dr Gallagher

1:00:58

makes the point that a lot , of , a lot of this is

1:01:01

you . Just People

1:01:03

are a bit gullible and can be guided and therefore

1:01:05

, a few some of the time you'll be true when you try

1:01:07

and predict the future . So that's why there's this

1:01:09

belief that that spirits

1:01:11

are able to tell the future , but he very categorically

1:01:13

says that they can't . And I just

1:01:16

I don't know on what basis he he makes

1:01:18

that bold presumption on .

1:01:24

Yeah , I've . I

1:01:27

know that in the Orthodox

1:01:29

and Catholic Theology

1:01:34

and understanding of the spiritual realm , they would

1:01:36

say the same thing that demons cannot predict the the

1:01:40

future . And I don't know what the basis for that is exactly . But

1:01:44

what they do say is that demons are Very

1:01:49

aware of your past and , based

1:01:51

on your past , they can , they can

1:01:54

, have a good guess . Yeah

1:01:58

, basically , yeah , exactly . They

1:02:00

basically can guess the the

1:02:02

future and you know , be Be

1:02:07

quite correct in many cases , because they , they understand your patterns

1:02:09

of behavior .

1:02:09

So , yeah , I , I don't know

1:02:12

what the basis is for I

1:02:14

don't know what the basis is for for

1:02:17

that Assertion

1:02:19

, though it yeah

1:02:21

, I don't know if the surgeon is , if behind it is

1:02:23

that only God knows

1:02:25

, sort of is outside of time and can tell

1:02:27

the future , and that Angels

1:02:30

and Satan and demons and all the lesser

1:02:32

beings have no ability . As you

1:02:34

say , they know the past and they may know

1:02:36

things they're . I think there's been a few examples

1:02:38

in the book where he talks about things that are having simultaneously . So

1:02:41

earlier on the sort of telling the some

1:02:43

time the color of somebody was wearing a

1:02:45

jump on a beach or something . So they know

1:02:48

things that are sort of happening Coincidentally

1:02:50

, but they can't for tell the future and I just that was

1:02:52

something that Okay

1:02:56

.

1:02:58

Yeah , interesting points , really interesting points

1:03:00

. Alright , darren

1:03:03

, any questions or objections ?

1:03:07

No , not really . Yeah

1:03:12

, I thought it was a good , good

1:03:14

book , but I'm sure we'll get to ratings in a in a minute here . Yeah

1:03:18

, sure .

1:03:19

All right , hillary writes with regard to

1:03:21

questions or objections Page 221

1:03:24

. Hypnosis a dubious way of trying

1:03:26

to help people recall memories Is

1:03:31

a common element in many false memory cases , and then she

1:03:33

wrote it in a book . It is quite concerning that

1:03:35

it is used at all . I

1:03:38

think the case that was brought up in the book

1:03:40

was a gentleman who was almost

1:03:42

, I would say , posing as a professional

1:03:46

to help a younger

1:03:48

, younger man to overcome

1:03:50

some issues , and he

1:03:54

himself had experienced trauma , if

1:03:56

I'm not mistaken , and he was trying to help this man who had experienced

1:03:58

trauma and he thought hypnosis

1:04:01

might be the best direction

1:04:04

to go . Based on personal

1:04:06

experience , I suppose , and I

1:04:09

don't know , is that ever

1:04:11

used in in actual clinical settings ? I

1:04:16

don't know much about it . Have you either of you heard about hypnosis being used

1:04:18

? Yeah , I have . Yeah , that's interesting

1:04:22

, wow , oof . And is it like in the movies

1:04:24

where they have a One of those

1:04:26

pendulum clocks where they they kind

1:04:28

of swing it up and then they're like they have a pendulum clock where they

1:04:30

they kind of swing it back and forth in front of your face

1:04:32

, or how

1:04:34

do they hypnotize you ?

1:04:38

I'm not sure about that part of it , but I

1:04:41

do know that there are like registered

1:04:43

, at least in Canada

1:04:46

, that there are registered Psychologists

1:04:50

and therapists who practice Hypnosis

1:04:53

as as part of their you know , whatever

1:04:56

healing and that

1:04:58

sort of thing .

1:04:59

Wow , huh , okay , yeah

1:05:02

, that is interesting . I don't know much about it , but

1:05:04

yeah , if they can implant memories

1:05:07

or or get you to believe that something happened , it's

1:05:09

a little weird I

1:05:12

had a couple that sorry .

1:05:14

Yeah , I know that there's . There

1:05:16

could be some subtle differences between

1:05:19

um , this and hypnosis

1:05:21

, but there's a very uh

1:05:24

common and I it's

1:05:27

quite a niche area of psychology

1:05:29

called rapid eye movement therapy

1:05:31

and it's often used to treat things

1:05:33

like PTSD and

1:05:35

and , um , yeah

1:05:38

, that's related kind

1:05:41

of issues . And uh , yeah

1:05:44

, it's basically

1:05:46

what the whole Therapy

1:05:49

is is to put someone in a Sort

1:05:52

of altered state and then

1:05:54

reprogram their memories

1:05:56

to Um , wipe

1:05:59

out or block certain traumatic

1:06:01

events from their memories . So

1:06:04

, um , yeah , it's called REM REM

1:06:06

therapy . That's interesting , okay

1:06:08

.

1:06:11

Well , I liked most of the book , but

1:06:13

I think that when and I'm gonna

1:06:15

get to my questions or objections here when dr Gallagher

1:06:18

ventures into territory he

1:06:21

is not an expert in . He tends

1:06:23

to go with the what's

1:06:25

in the zeitgeist rather than really

1:06:27

research it , and I think it was evident

1:06:30

in two places for me immediately , but maybe in

1:06:32

a couple of other places . So he

1:06:35

claimed that Jewish tradition at one point

1:06:37

had was in in some

1:06:39

way derivative of zoroastrianism . Uh

1:06:42

, and zoroastrianism From

1:06:44

for people who have not heard of it claims

1:06:46

to be the first monotheistic religion . Um

1:06:49

, the only issue with that claim is that the parcy

1:06:51

biography , which was the first written Thing

1:06:54

about zoroastrianism , was written

1:06:56

a thousand years after christ . So

1:06:59

you have this thing that was written a thousand

1:07:01

years after christ . That claims to

1:07:03

be , you know , 2000

1:07:07

years before him . So , or whatever

1:07:09

it would have been . You know well however

1:07:11

long the jews came 4,000

1:07:14

, yeah , something like that . Yeah , so , um

1:07:17

, you know , I

1:07:20

, I believe oral oral tradition was quite

1:07:22

strong in many places in the world and

1:07:24

I think that there could be some something

1:07:26

rooted in reality there . But I

1:07:28

I tend

1:07:30

to think that the claims are exaggerated

1:07:33

for zoroastrianism . But it's one

1:07:35

of those things that you people engage in

1:07:37

authoritative parroting and you

1:07:39

know somebody important says it . Therefore it must

1:07:41

be true , um , but

1:07:43

it's not that big , you know , a big mistake . I know that that's

1:07:46

it's quite a popular opinion , but , um

1:07:48

, historians , you

1:07:50

know , I don't think Really

1:07:53

rest on that claim Too much

1:07:55

. Okay , and then the other part was uh

1:07:57

, he referred to the book of enoch as something that the jews

1:08:00

took seriously as history Because

1:08:02

it was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls . Um

1:08:04

, no , no jew takes

1:08:07

the book of enoch seriously as a history

1:08:09

. I think that it's . It

1:08:11

was kind of their equivalent of the lion , the witch in

1:08:13

the wardrobe . It was a work of fiction and

1:08:15

they knew it . Um , but

1:08:18

it had some , some

1:08:20

basis in reality . So it was , you

1:08:22

know , it kind of intermingled fiction

1:08:24

with With things that

1:08:26

the jews actually believed . There is reference

1:08:28

to it in the new testament , I believe . I don't recall which

1:08:30

which epistle references it , but , um

1:08:33

, you know , as a parallel

1:08:36

, alexander the great , I believe , carried the iliad

1:08:38

with him and it

1:08:40

was sort of a motivational work that

1:08:43

kind of inspired him to move along . Having

1:08:45

the book of enoch in the Dead

1:08:47

Sea Scrolls is not a confirmation that the

1:08:49

jews integrated into their theology and

1:08:52

in most jews , would would agree with that . So

1:08:54

there are people who Um tend

1:08:57

to think well , you know the Dead

1:08:59

Sea Scrolls . They're dated to anywhere from 100

1:09:01

to 500 years before christ , um

1:09:04

, and you know , therefore , all the the

1:09:06

jews must have believed it . But if you ask

1:09:08

a jew , they'll , they'll , they will tell you

1:09:10

this . It was kind of a work of fiction , that

1:09:13

, yeah . So that

1:09:15

just just two things that came to mind immediately . I

1:09:17

don't think that that undermines

1:09:19

this book . I think the book is Incredibly

1:09:22

well done and so

1:09:24

, yeah , on that note , maybe I'll

1:09:27

ask everyone to to give their one

1:09:29

to ten . I should have asked hillary

1:09:32

as well to To maybe put

1:09:34

something out . You know a one to ten rating

1:09:36

of their feelings on the book , so

1:09:38

maybe we'll just assume what hillary would have would have

1:09:40

said and just just call that the definitive

1:09:42

. I think All

1:09:44

right . So , brine , perhaps I'll go with you first . One

1:09:47

to ten , and what do you think overall ?

1:09:50

Um , ten being the top score and the

1:09:52

one being not very good at all , I would give it an eight

1:09:54

. I think sure I'm gonna enjoy this book . Yeah

1:09:57

, yeah , it was good , I suppose

1:09:59

primarily because it's a subject area

1:10:01

that I'd never Delved

1:10:04

into , never been exposed too much before , so just

1:10:06

so much it was new and interesting . So

1:10:08

, yeah , it was well written . Um , as I said before , I

1:10:10

think he came across as a thoroughbred

1:10:13

without being um Ever

1:10:15

getting in a suit box and and saying

1:10:17

absolutely this is correct . There was

1:10:19

so much nuance To his arguments

1:10:22

and he kept himself humble all the way throughout

1:10:24

, which I I really did appreciate , sure

1:10:26

sure there any

1:10:28

thoughts .

1:10:30

Yeah , I'd give it about an eight as

1:10:32

well . I , yeah

1:10:34

, would concur with everything brine says and

1:10:36

add that it it

1:10:39

is really a Really easy

1:10:41

read and if anyone is interested

1:10:44

in this topic or I

1:10:46

would say even if people if

1:10:49

there are people out there listening to this who

1:10:51

, um , have

1:10:53

dabbled in things

1:10:56

like readings

1:10:59

and other you

1:11:01

know , um what

1:11:04

would you call it like Basically

1:11:06

working with mediums and that

1:11:08

kind of thing Um , read

1:11:10

this book . It's not very long

1:11:12

, it's pretty accessible and easy to read

1:11:15

and I think it would maybe

1:11:17

change their perspective on

1:11:19

using those kinds of People

1:11:22

to help them with their , their

1:11:24

problems .

1:11:25

Sure , Sure

1:11:28

, yeah I . I think I'm probably at an eight

1:11:30

myself . Yeah it was good , I enjoyed it . I

1:11:32

think , um , I agree

1:11:34

with everyone's points . So , yeah

1:11:36

, what do you think ? Hilary gave it brine .

1:11:39

Well , no , I think from taught with . I think

1:11:41

she'd probably be up there as well .

1:11:43

Okay , okay , all

1:11:45

right .

1:11:46

If you dig up the um , the pass score

1:11:49

on phaser , and then multiply it by two

1:11:51

, I think you're probably be close to that

1:11:53

.

1:11:53

Well , no , you'd still be in a negative number

1:11:55

, though , if it was .

1:11:56

Hilary's .

1:12:00

All right , good stuff . So we had the votes

1:12:02

for oh , dropping everything

1:12:04

now , um , we had the votes for

1:12:07

the new book and

1:12:11

the . The books that were put out there

1:12:13

were the case for heaven I believe that's lee strobel

1:12:15

, whom we've read before

1:12:17

when we read the case for the real jesus , the

1:12:20

experience of god , which was david

1:12:22

bentley heart , um , who's

1:12:25

um pretty great

1:12:27

scholar , um

1:12:29

, then isiah , ezekiel and daniel maybe

1:12:32

a scripture study . I thought that that could be appropriate

1:12:36

, given everything that's going on in the world right now , and it

1:12:38

could be really fascinating . Those , in my opinion , are three

1:12:41

of the most interesting books of the bible , and

1:12:43

I think the bible has a lot of interesting stuff

1:12:45

. But I mean , those ones are pretty , pretty meaty , meaty books . The

1:12:50

surprising rebirth of belief in

1:12:52

god , which I believe is justin brierley . I met justin

1:12:54

brierley , uh , about 18 months

1:12:56

ago in england

1:13:01

at the unbelievable conference . He's a really

1:13:03

interesting guy and he used to run the unbelievable podcast

1:13:05

, which was one of the most popular

1:13:08

christian podcasts out there . He

1:13:10

recently left and is doing his own podcast now

1:13:12

. But Person

1:13:14

of interest is , uh , I believe , jay warner wallace , former

1:13:17

police detective , I believe

1:13:19

, the most famous , the

1:13:21

most famous former police detective

1:13:23

in the us . He was on a show where

1:13:26

they discussed criminal cases I can't recall

1:13:28

the name of it because I don't watch a lot of tv , but and

1:13:31

then he converted to christianity and it's him

1:13:33

breaking down the reasons

1:13:35

why he's convinced that jesus

1:13:38

is the messiah , from a detective's

1:13:41

perspective . Um , the

1:13:44

god delusion which is richard docens , and

1:13:46

that was just . You may have to create some opposing arguments

1:13:48

. And then the case for

1:13:50

the resurrection of jesus , which I

1:13:52

believe is gary habermass , who

1:13:55

has created the and I brought this up before

1:13:57

the minimal are minimal facts argument

1:14:00

, which is one of the most utilized

1:14:03

arguments for the resurrection of

1:14:05

christ in terms of um Scholars

1:14:10

, who you know , created a case for it . So , okay

1:14:14

, okay .

1:14:17

Let's repress your page , your

1:14:20

results .

1:14:22

I did , did somebody

1:14:24

else vote .

1:14:26

I may have okay , all right , I

1:14:29

logged into a um bpn

1:14:31

and you know put

1:14:34

in several uh rounds of votes

1:14:36

there to go off , you know that's

1:14:39

fine .

1:14:39

That's fine . I don't think darin typically votes , you

1:14:41

know , have you ever voted before ?

1:14:45

Um , I normally don't vote . I

1:14:48

I think way back

1:14:50

, like I don't know , two years ago or three years

1:14:52

ago . I voted one time

1:14:55

and then I was like you know

1:14:57

, the books we read are all end up being

1:14:59

Pretty interesting . We've had

1:15:01

a few duds , I would say , but for

1:15:03

the most part they've been very interesting and they're

1:15:05

almost never the book that I

1:15:07

would vote for . So I figured I

1:15:09

just roll with that . Roll with whatever

1:15:12

comes our way , okay .

1:15:13

Okay , but I was .

1:15:14

I know you had mentioned there was a Tie

1:15:17

, so I thought , well , okay , maybe I'll . I'll

1:15:19

throw in a vote and see if it

1:15:22

ends up being a tiebreaker or not .

1:15:25

How many did you vote for out of curiosity ? Just

1:15:28

one or three or two , okay , two , okay

1:15:30

, okay

1:15:32

, interesting , interesting stuff , brian

1:15:34

. Maybe I'll ask which one were you hoping for

1:15:36

?

1:15:38

I'm like Darren . I've taken Darren's

1:15:41

approach . I let the collective

1:15:43

wisdom decide and then I go with the reading .

1:15:45

Okay , okay , all

1:15:47

right , so we do have a definitive winner

1:15:49

now . But

1:15:51

just out of curiosity , I had you both write

1:15:53

down numbers beforehand

1:15:56

that we would arbitrarily apply

1:15:58

to the two that tied

1:16:00

to break the tie . Just

1:16:02

out of curiosity , what numbers did each

1:16:04

of you write ? Darren wrote one

1:16:06

One . Wow

1:16:08

, all of us wrote one that

1:16:12

actually coincides with what Darren just

1:16:14

voted , which is the experience of God

1:16:16

by David Bentley Hart , so that is the winner

1:16:18

. That , to me

1:16:20

, is a sign , if anything you know , because

1:16:23

, yeah so , the experience of

1:16:25

God . This has rave

1:16:27

reviews online . I know nothing

1:16:29

about what it contains . David

1:16:31

Bentley Hart wrote a

1:16:34

translation of the New Testament

1:16:36

which , by

1:16:39

some accounts , is one of the most accurate Greek

1:16:41

to English translations , and

1:16:44

it does away with a lot of the blanket

1:16:47

words that people often don't

1:16:50

understand , like love and

1:16:52

hell , and gives a very accurate

1:16:54

translation of them to

1:16:57

help people understand , perhaps , what's going on a

1:16:59

little better in the New Testament . And

1:17:02

I realize that's a really simplistic

1:17:05

way of looking at what he wrote

1:17:07

, but he's obviously very intelligent and

1:17:10

he knows his stuff , and I

1:17:12

don't know much about him outside of that , but I

1:17:14

know Darren knows a little bit about him , so

1:17:18

I'm looking forward to reading the book . So

1:17:22

okay , david Bentley Hart's the

1:17:24

experience of God is our

1:17:27

next book . So

1:17:29

when is everyone keen to get

1:17:32

back together ? When

1:17:34

should we Think

1:17:40

, perhaps ? I mean , we've got Thanksgiving

1:17:42

coming up , american Thanksgiving , and

1:17:45

then how's

1:17:48

December looking for everyone ? Is it pretty

1:17:50

busy ?

1:17:53

Pretty much . The 16th is

1:17:56

the weekend that I'm free

1:17:58

, but

1:18:01

then after the 16th

1:18:03

I've got Well

1:18:06

, okay , I could do the 16th , I could do the 23rd

1:18:09

, and then I'm

1:18:12

out for the 30th

1:18:15

and then yeah so I've got . I

1:18:17

guess I've only got really one week that I would miss .

1:18:19

It Okay , December 16th next

1:18:21

available date Okay , december 16th , brian

1:18:24

, how about you ?

1:18:26

Yeah , December 16th is fine for us

1:18:28

. As far as I know , 23rd is out

1:18:30

. Yeah , we'll

1:18:33

be too many people here then , but 16th

1:18:35

is good , Okay so

1:18:37

perhaps I'll send out .

1:18:40

I haven't looked at the book yet , I haven't downloaded it , but

1:18:43

perhaps we could figure out the reading in

1:18:45

an email and then

1:18:47

go with the 16th and All

1:18:49

right , sweet , yeah , looking forward to this one . I'll

1:18:52

just by reading the reviews , I'm very curious

1:18:55

about what the contents are , so I

1:18:57

have no idea what it's gonna be . Is it gonna be philosophy

1:19:00

? Is it gonna be ? Yeah , I have no idea

1:19:02

. Okay , so

1:19:05

who was doing closing prayer ? I can't

1:19:07

remember .

1:19:09

It was me , Okay . So , Father

1:19:13

in heaven , thank you for this conversation

1:19:16

and we pray that

1:19:18

it would be edifying

1:19:21

to those who listened to

1:19:23

it . We pray for safety on

1:19:25

the roads for Hillary and the

1:19:28

girls that she's driven down for

1:19:32

that swim competition , and

1:19:35

we pray that in due time we

1:19:37

get together again and discuss

1:19:39

another book . We pray this in Jesus'

1:19:41

name , amen . Amen .

1:19:43

Amen , amen , all right

1:19:45

.