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1:09

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1:19

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1:21

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1:28

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1:30

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1:33

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1:35

making today's show possible . Please

1:38

be sure to subscribe , rate our show with

1:40

your podcast provider of choice and

1:43

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1:47

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1:50

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1:52

complete Pillars of Intelligent Design audiobook

1:54

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2:00

Podcast would like to thank our listeners and

2:02

supporters at BuyMeAcoffeecom forward

2:04

slash ID podcast for making today's

2:06

show possible . Please

2:08

be sure to subscribe , rate our show with

2:11

your podcast provider of choice and

2:13

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2:15

that's how we grow . Also

2:17

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2:20

of the IDC Podcast for the complete

2:22

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2:24

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2:26

.

2:41

Welcome to the IDC Podcast . This is Aleko

2:43

and I hope you're doing well . So we've got

2:45

book club today and we're

2:48

going to be talking about chapters seven

2:50

and eight of Demonic Fos by

2:52

Dr Richard Gallagher . This

2:54

was a very interesting chapter indeed . So

2:56

if you're reading the book , I recommend you

2:59

listen to our discussion , or you

3:01

could just listen to it . It's kind

3:03

of a fun and maybe even insightful conversation

3:05

. One minor caveat is that

3:08

the recording was a

3:11

little bit tinny today because the

3:13

audio equipment was on the fritz , but

3:16

fortunately my end came through all

3:18

right , but everyone else was a little bit odd , so

3:20

it sounds a little bit more like a phone call on their end . But

3:23

we still had fun nonetheless and we really enjoyed ourselves

3:26

and got a lot more to be able to get more content

3:28

out there . It has been a very busy

3:30

few weeks since I've come back from my

3:32

trip to see family in Greece , and

3:35

another thing is , you know I've been in prayer

3:37

regarding what

3:39

would be appropriate to talk about in these very

3:42

trying times . Obviously

3:44

, I don't want to cover topics that might

3:46

seem trite or superficial when

3:49

it seems , now more than ever , the world needs

3:51

prayer . So I love

3:53

you all and I hope

3:55

you're doing well and I hope

3:57

that we can all pray for those who

4:00

are suffering right now . God

4:02

bless you and , him willing , I'll be able

4:04

to get something edifying up on the podcast soon

4:06

enough . Welcome

4:16

to the IDC podcast book club . We're

4:20

we're discussing demonic foes

4:22

by Dr Richard Gallagher . This is a leko

4:24

and I'm joined by my friends . But

4:27

before they introduce themselves , brian

4:30

, would you be keen to do an opening prayer

4:33

?

4:34

Yeah , just thank you for bringing us together here

4:36

for the next few minutes . Be

4:38

with us in our conversation and

4:40

our thoughts and maybe be glorified

4:43

to you for asking Jesus name

4:46

and that .

4:47

Okay , all right . So who's with us today

4:50

?

4:52

I'm Henry and I'm in the northeast

4:54

of England , where autumn is in

4:57

full swing .

5:03

What's the temperature currently there ? It's about

5:05

10 degrees centigrade . Okay , yeah

5:08

, our autumn just finished . We

5:10

do . Your leaves change significantly

5:13

where you are .

5:14

Yeah .

5:14

Okay .

5:16

And then they fall off over a long

5:18

period of time .

5:19

Okay , okay , all

5:22

right . Yeah , ours were

5:24

yellow and red and really beautiful for

5:26

a month and a half , and

5:28

the wind just took all

5:31

of them . They're on the ground now and there's a bit of snow on

5:33

the on the roofs . So yeah , interesting

5:36

, interesting who . Who

5:39

else is with us ?

5:42

I'm Darren and I'm on the west

5:44

coast of Canada where the

5:47

weather is very fresh . We've got a north

5:49

wind coming in and

5:51

, yeah , it's been good

5:54

since the last call , busy with preschool

5:57

and work and all

5:59

of those wonderful things .

6:01

Do you feel like you're making advances in preschool

6:03

?

6:08

I just get . I get our

6:10

three year old daughter there . But actually

6:13

it's interesting . You

6:15

know some people . I've heard conversations where

6:17

people can be quite dismissive about preschool

6:20

, but

6:22

I've found like , particularly

6:24

socially , it's been a

6:27

huge game changer for our

6:29

daughter . So , yeah

6:32

, she's , she's enjoying the benefits of

6:34

preschool . Unfortunately , I don't get

6:36

to stay , I just get to meet her

6:38

there and drop her off , still

6:40

not coloring in .

6:42

It does sound like a lot of fun

6:44

, but you still can't color in the lines

6:46

, right ? So you need that that little extra time . Every

6:48

time you go there I

6:51

just pretend like I can't color at all

6:53

. That's cool

6:55

. Yeah , that's , that's great . Yeah , she , she looks

6:58

beautiful . I'm assuming

7:00

that is that's really good socially , you know

7:02

, for kiddos to be in there . You know

7:04

? Okay

7:07

, sweet , who else is with us ?

7:09

Yeah , it's Brian again at the northeast of

7:12

England , and so since the last

7:14

boot club , since we last joined , I've been very busy

7:16

watching in the rugby World Cup . It's

7:18

appropriate that we have it today because we have the

7:20

final this evening between

7:22

New Zealand and South Africa

7:25

.

7:25

Nice .

7:26

Nice .

7:29

How many hours until that takes place ? I

7:31

would be keen to watch that . Maybe the timing

7:33

will be off . Okay , I might

7:35

find a

7:42

bar to watch that . I don't know if anyone be showing

7:44

it . I remember rooting

7:47

for South . Africa

7:56

. Years ago , when we watched the

7:58

I guess , the championships in

8:02

Dalian in Northern China , we

8:04

went , all went to a bar . We

8:06

had a long , you know we

8:08

did , we played pool and

8:10

everyone just kind of rallied around the TV

8:12

and it was fun . It was good fun . This

8:17

is , this is Aleco , and yeah , I'm here

8:19

in Duluth . We obviously had a little

8:21

break . I went

8:23

to Greece to see my brother

8:25

and my niece and

8:28

other family members and let's

8:32

see what else happened . I see

8:35

, is my audio good ? Let me check real quick

8:37

. Well

8:41

, yeah , oh okay , so

8:43

that should be a little more clear . Yeah , so I went to hang

8:47

on . Technology

8:51

is always

8:53

going to . Really wasn't a lot going

8:55

on , aleco only a trip to Greece

8:57

and England . Yeah , yeah

9:00

, that old chestnut , greece flying to Greece

9:02

. No , greece was beautiful , athens

9:05

was was fantastic . If

9:08

I recall , like one of the things that

9:10

I pointed out to Melanie was the Hanoi , vietnam

9:13

, which is where we all met

9:15

, was almost a spiritual cousin

9:17

to Athens . It's kind of congested

9:19

, the there's even a similar aesthetic

9:22

with some of the brutalist

9:24

architecture that you find in the city , the more

9:26

modern stuff it's

9:29

. Athens , I think , is a little more functional

9:31

than Vietnam . There's a lot of people who are

9:33

in the city , you know , and Vietnam is is kind of a beautiful

9:35

chaos . But

9:42

and then you juxtapose with that brutalist architecture

9:44

. You have things that are 1000s of

9:47

years old and I think you have something similar in Vietnam

9:49

. I don't know if it's 1000s of years old , but

9:52

you have some old stuff , you know , peppered throughout

9:54

the city , and so there is a similar

9:56

aesthetic and it was just really good to be back

9:58

. It was good to be

10:02

back . That's why you have

10:04

more concepts than my country . Иl唉 , market Maker

10:06

. I mean , I almost went down and carved

10:08

an wool piece of paper , drowning

10:13

in the halder . I rather send

10:18

a signing . Thanks for admitting . Λ . Content maker

10:20

. I have a similar aesthetic , a close

10:22

to there . They're Rosie and it's just the property , ciary

10:24

and it's just something like it's

10:29

just tragic . So you

10:31

know you have , you

10:34

know a number of people who rely

10:37

on this component to keep our doors

10:39

open . You know over , you know thousands

10:41

of people . Yet how

10:43

do you pressure , how do you pressure

10:45

this stakeholder to produce the

10:48

component when they're ? You know there's

10:50

some tragic things happening in the Middle East

10:52

right now , so it's

10:54

a real rock in a hard place

10:56

type of situation . But yeah

11:00

, outside of that it's yeah

11:02

. God is good . So

11:05

I'm glad to be here talking to

11:07

you all and , yeah

11:10

, so what we did chapters

11:12

, was it six and seven or seven and eight

11:14

, of Seven

11:18

and eight , seven and eight , yeah , okay , okay

11:20

, so seven and eight . I've

11:22

got my notes and , yeah , I

11:24

really I thought the reading was pretty good . I'm keen

11:26

to hear what everyone else

11:28

thinks . So , hilary , did you have

11:30

any favorite part of the reading ?

11:35

So my favourite part was that

11:38

we were

11:40

discussing this lady's

11:42

problems

11:46

that she had and she

11:49

was being through multiple

11:51

exorcisms before the

11:54

author arrived at

11:56

the house and

11:58

I thought it was quite

12:01

amazing that the lady's

12:03

husband maintained

12:06

an equanimity and patient

12:08

about his wife's

12:10

condition despite the terrible

12:13

circumstances and

12:15

I thought that was quite amazing really

12:18

that he was so sort

12:20

of .

12:22

So this is the woman that had

12:25

different . Is this the

12:27

one with the selective listening ? Yeah

12:29

, that's right .

12:30

She had apparently been part

12:32

of Wiches Coven when she was

12:35

much younger and

12:37

had become possessed by something

12:41

, and but

12:44

in the meantime she got married to

12:46

this chap and

12:50

had children and had a normal life . And

12:52

then suddenly it really

12:55

just taken over .

12:59

This particular chapter got me thinking about

13:01

many ex-girlfriends who had selective

13:03

listening and if

13:05

there could have been demonic activity involved

13:08

. Guilty

13:20

is charged , I guess now I'm kidding . Okay , yeah

13:23

, that was quite fascinating , and

13:25

how she could . In the chapter

13:27

, I believe , it says that they

13:30

would shift

13:33

from these sessions where

13:35

they were trying to exercise

13:38

the demons and then all of a sudden she'd be helping

13:41

put on dinner . So , yeah

13:44

, yeah

13:49

, yeah . What I think

13:51

is interesting is the

13:53

author tried to create a . This

13:58

is maybe a bit tangential . You know what ? I'm going to save that

14:00

for later . I had a thought on that , but I'll save it for

14:02

later . So I'll ask Brian

14:05

did you have a favorite part of the

14:07

reading ? Sorry , we're going to Darren .

14:12

Yeah , mine is very similar to Hillard

14:14

and Theresa . I thought it was quite

14:16

impressive how these

14:18

this couple have been able

14:20

to hold together their relationship

14:23

through all

14:25

of the stuff going on and

14:27

it seems like

14:29

she's got a very supportive husband

14:32

and I

14:34

was also very impressed

14:36

by her and

14:40

, I guess , her husband's just determination to

14:42

keep pushing through these exorcism

14:44

processes because she'd

14:47

been through I don't know , it

14:49

sounds like more than a dozen

14:51

exorcism

14:55

rituals and it

14:57

was showing some

15:00

signs of benefit . But at the

15:02

same time it was very , very taxing

15:04

and she

15:07

would the

15:09

possessed lady Catherine . She

15:11

would be in essentially a kind of a

15:13

slump for a day or two

15:15

before the priests would

15:17

come and she

15:20

really struggled through that and was

15:22

trying to prepare a meal and be

15:24

a great host in advance

15:27

of their coming . And

15:30

then the

15:32

exorcisms itself were

15:34

sounding quite awful , where she

15:36

would

15:38

be straining physically

15:41

and was in

15:44

trances and dazed

15:47

and different things like that , and

15:50

then once the exorcism was completed

15:52

, it was like she was just exhausted

15:54

, like she'd been

15:57

in a been in the octagon for

16:00

seven rounds kind of thing . So yeah

16:03

, it's a very , I think , a very

16:05

impressive story of love

16:07

really between this couple

16:10

and also the determination to

16:12

get to work through this and

16:14

make things better , and it kind of

16:16

reminded me of situations I know of

16:18

where people suffer

16:21

from a mental

16:23

illness that they're not able to get

16:25

a grasp on and find the right medications

16:28

for

16:30

alcoholism or drug

16:33

use or any of those kind

16:35

of very destructive habits

16:37

or states of mind

16:39

that would normally especially

16:42

in

16:45

today's society where

16:47

the value of marriage is and

16:50

staying together for life is not as

16:52

socially

16:55

, there's

16:58

not as much social pressure around doing that , so

17:00

it's so easy to just start kind of leave

17:02

and say yeah , you're not the right person for me

17:04

. It's too tough , you know , see you later , kind of

17:07

thing .

17:09

Yeah , really good points . Really good points . That I

17:12

mean , if anything is going to test a marriage , it's

17:14

probably going to be demon possession . I

17:19

completely agree , brian

17:22

. Did you have any favorite part of

17:24

the ring ?

17:26

Yes , sure , so I like I think

17:28

it was perhaps in chapter eight the fact

17:30

that he mentioned Reminders chapter seven , on sure

17:33

, with this idea that demons

17:36

have distinct personalities and

17:39

characteristics and that he

17:41

claims that you can tell which ones are a bit more intelligent

17:43

than others . Some are a bit more sassy

17:45

and cheeky , and you know

17:48

, he suggests that that's

17:50

because at

17:52

least one of these one type of demon is

17:54

a fallen angel . So they were real

17:56

beings with personalities and I suppose

17:58

I'd always just lumped angels

18:01

where they'd be angels or

18:03

fallen angels , into one set

18:05

and I never really thought that they also possessed

18:07

personalities , characteristics

18:09

, intelligence levels . So that was quite

18:12

a new and interesting thought

18:15

for me .

18:15

Sure , yeah , a really interesting point . Yeah

18:19

, I would have nothing to add to that , but that was kind of

18:22

fascinating . I think

18:24

that this has been a recurring

18:26

theme throughout the book is something I thought was

18:28

interesting because I

18:30

always wondered why a the

18:36

rights of exorcism would

18:39

be recited in a different language , be

18:42

it , you know , latin or Greek or whatever it is , depending

18:44

on , you know if it's orthodoxy or Catholicism

18:46

, and I always thought it kind of reduced

18:49

our faith into some type of

18:51

mystical hocus pocus , as if

18:53

you're , you know , reading like a mystical

18:56

mumbo-jumble , as if you're reading some type of

18:59

incantation that's gonna , you know , reverse

19:01

a spell . But I

19:03

think the point that Oftentimes

19:07

, when there's these possessions , the person can understand

19:09

different languages and that that's

19:11

a that's a two-sided coin . There's there's

19:14

this concept of speaking in tongues in

19:17

in Christianity and there's a lot

19:19

of charlatans . I think 90%

19:21

of the people who publicly display this

19:23

are Maybe not being

19:25

sincere . I think it said . You know , there's

19:27

a lot of sort of bozos that are

19:29

just pretending because it's probably the easiest

19:32

thing to fake . But I've also

19:34

heard some really interesting stories of

19:36

quote-unquote tongues , where

19:38

what

19:42

, what I heard , for example , was very credible

19:44

witness who told me this there

19:47

was a woman who , in there was a

19:49

giant prayer session going on and

19:51

she began speaking a Language

19:54

, and it wasn't just a language , it was . It was . It

19:57

was a Slavic language , I can't recall which one , but it

19:59

was a specific dialect

20:01

from a very particular region . She

20:04

started speaking this way in a church and

20:07

, of course , nobody

20:09

understood , except for one other person

20:11

who was from this exact place where

20:13

this dialect came from . And it was

20:15

a direct message to that person . And

20:18

While that person spoke English

20:20

, everyone knew

20:22

that the message that this woman had was specifically

20:25

for that person , because it you know

20:27

it very specifically

20:29

was that that in that particular dialect

20:31

in it . So so the quote-unquote

20:34

tongues , you know , serve several purposes

20:36

. It was a corroboration of spiritual activity , because

20:38

this person was speaking a language they had never heard before

20:40

or knew anything about , and

20:42

it was Directed at a

20:45

very particular person in the congregation

20:47

that day . So I've

20:49

heard a couple of stories like that , where you

20:51

know the person can , it

20:54

seems like you know , when there is a either

20:56

angelic or you know You're someone's

20:58

maybe indulced by the Holy

21:00

Spirit , or the other side

21:02

of the coin , which is demonic possession , there's

21:04

this language ability . That is really

21:07

fascinating , and so

21:12

the

21:14

the use of Latin or

21:16

or Greek or whatever it may be

21:18

is is kind of a , it's

21:21

a litmus test . You know that , that

21:23

maybe it's

21:25

one way to find out if you know the

21:27

person's faking it or not , and I think that

21:29

that's . It's something that's been , you know , brought

21:32

up since , since the early chapters of the book

21:34

, but I find it to be fascinating and that's that's

21:36

done that way .

21:41

Yeah , yeah . I've had no personal experience of

21:43

tongues , but it was

21:45

the cost I got to . It was was

21:48

. A girl at university said her mom would

21:50

often speak in tongues , but

21:52

she gave the impression that it wasn't any discernible

21:54

language .

21:54

Yeah , it was almost as she was communing

21:57

with God or with the Holy Spirit

21:59

.

21:59

Yeah , and it was . It wasn't as if

22:01

it was a another language , it was just

22:03

a different form of communication

22:06

.

22:06

Yeah , yeah well , there's

22:08

, there's two , I think there are two versions of it

22:10

. There's angelic tongues and then there's I

22:13

guess tongues is in languages that we know

22:15

on earth . The

22:17

angelic tongues is the one I feel that is

22:19

is abused personally , just my opinion

22:21

, but I do believe

22:23

it's . It's a thing I mean . Clearly it's

22:26

happened scripturally . And then my , my brother-in-law

22:28

, who's actually staying with me , he came to town

22:30

this weekend . He

22:33

said that when he had his conversion experience

22:35

and he

22:37

had this and I'm not gonna do any

22:39

justice he felt

22:41

he felt something come over him and His

22:44

. He didn't know about tongues

22:47

and he wasn't prompted to do so . And I think that's one of the

22:49

I'm just tangentially , I think of one of the reasons

22:51

why a lot of these people are

22:53

charlatans is two people

22:55

I've had tried to get me to speak in tongues

22:57

and they said the

23:00

thing leading up to it was them telling me oh well , you've

23:02

just got to start rolling . You know rolling

23:05

your mouth around and you know , start undulating

23:07

, and you know it's just gonna happen . I'm like

23:09

, well , that's not exactly what happened in the acts

23:11

of the Apostles . Nobody showed up . You

23:14

know waiting to start . You know babbling

23:16

nonsense . It just happened

23:18

and that's what happened to my brother-in-law

23:21

. He . He felt

23:23

something come over him and his mouth started

23:25

moving and he said it

23:27

was the most beautiful thing he could hear

23:29

and he wasn't really in control of it . I don't

23:31

know how long it lasted , but he

23:34

, I mean , he's quite credible and I think

23:36

he was being sincere and earnest and I don't

23:38

. I had he had no reason to lie about it Because it was just

23:40

an anecdote he shared with me . So I

23:42

have heard that it is possible

23:45

, but I am skeptical about

23:47

a lot of the people who kind of , you know , put

23:49

it on display , yeah

23:52

, so anyways , yeah , so

23:54

that was a fascinating thing . I think the , the

23:57

, the notion of language or language ability with

23:59

, with spiritual possession , is interesting

24:01

.

24:04

Just one thing surely

24:06

the exorcism right pre

24:09

dates Like

24:12

the 1662

24:14

King James version of the

24:16

Bible , because prior to that All

24:19

the versions were in Latin anyway

24:21

sure yeah

24:24

, good point .

24:46

I thought it was very interesting that

24:48

some of the priests

24:50

I think this is more so in chapter 8 , but some

24:52

of the priests Preferred

24:55

a specific version of

24:57

the exorcism right . Where you

24:59

know , some would they know we like to do it in

25:01

the vernacular , in English , or what have

25:03

you . And then others would say , no

25:06

, we like Latin . And then someone say , well , we like

25:08

the Latin , but the 1664

25:13

version , yeah

25:15

it's . I found that was

25:18

very , very interesting

25:20

and when I was reading

25:22

it I sort of got the I

25:24

couldn't help but think of like Lucky

25:27

terms in a way . So you know , if you have

25:29

a good result with a certain

25:31

, then then going

25:34

with it and and feel

25:36

that it is a superior version or

25:39

something .

25:43

Yeah , really good points . Points Alright

25:46

, let's see the opinions

25:49

changed Hillary .

25:55

So I was . I know that

25:57

the author has said a few things

25:59

about this previously in the

26:01

book , but the lady in

26:04

question he

26:06

wrote knew the details of our trip

26:09

right down to the rift time of our arrival

26:11

. I'm not quite scary

26:15

in a way that you

26:17

know that all

26:21

that information , even

26:23

though they hadn't actually told

26:25

her that anything was going to happen

26:27

, she knew all about it .

26:30

So that harkens back to the one of the earlier chapters

26:32

with the woman who was possessed and could

26:35

remote view what another priest

26:38

was doing at the beach , and

26:46

that gets the mind sort

26:48

of turning about what

26:50

some of these psychics and mediums who

26:52

are capable of

26:55

certain things , what's really going

26:57

on behind the scenes , I've

27:03

never encountered . I'm sorry , yeah

27:27

, yeah , it's interesting . It's

27:29

very interesting , right

27:33

, darren ? Any opinions changed

27:35

?

27:39

I guess this probably needs to be taken with a

27:41

grain of salt , since I

27:43

believe Dr Gallagher is a

27:45

practicing Catholic , but

27:48

I was impressed

27:50

at reading chapter eight , in particular

27:53

how he

27:55

details the some

27:58

of the different ways exorcisms

28:00

are done in different Christian

28:03

circles . And it

28:05

seems to me that the Catholic

28:09

Church and how

28:11

they approach the

28:13

exorcism rights is very

28:16

methodical and disciplined

28:18

and cautious and it's

28:21

I think they treat it with a

28:25

level of seriousness that it's

28:27

not , it's not something to

28:29

play with or dabble in or do

28:32

on a whim , but rather it's

28:34

a spiritual

28:38

, spiritually

28:40

inclined , let's say , profession

28:42

. And yeah , I was

28:45

quite impressed reading that .

28:48

I think that I

28:50

think that that's how the Catholic

28:53

Church works . I mean , we I

28:55

didn't tell them completely different , but

28:57

we got different

29:01

people from lots of

29:03

different denominations to come to a meeting

29:06

and the Catholic Church would always

29:08

tell somebody

29:10

that they were going to come , whereas

29:14

the other Protestants churches are all over

29:16

the place . So

29:19

so I think that's sort of how

29:23

the Catholic Church is run , but

29:25

I think that in that way , I

29:27

was quite , also quite impressed with that

29:29

, because it meant that you

29:32

know , you always worry that if lay people

29:34

get involved , they might be overwhelmed

29:37

or not able to cope with

29:39

the situation .

29:42

Yeah , there's also a

29:45

I think this is particularly

29:47

the case in some of the charismatic

29:49

churches that

29:52

there can be a real social

29:54

pressure to demonstrate

29:56

successes and say

29:58

, like spiritual , your

30:01

spiritual worth by

30:03

demonstrating your . I

30:06

think they would term it something like gifts of

30:08

the spirit , and and

30:12

I I know from what

30:14

. So I was never a charismatic

30:16

, charismatic Pentecostal type

30:18

of Christian , but I do have some

30:21

friends who were and

30:23

some who still are , and

30:25

the ones who were former

30:27

Pentecostals will admit

30:30

to me that they , they

30:32

would fake spiritual gifts because

30:35

they just felt such an immense social

30:37

pressure to demonstrate that they had spiritual

30:39

gifts as a kind of confirmation of their

30:42

, their salvation

30:44

. And I

30:47

could see something

30:49

like exorcisms in

30:51

that type of environment being

30:53

a very , very tricky thing

30:55

, because if someone was truly demonically

30:57

possessed and they

31:00

went through an exorcism ritual

31:02

with one of their fellow members

31:07

of the congregation who who claim

31:09

to have the spiritual gift , the

31:11

, the social pressure to say

31:13

that it was a successful exorcism

31:16

right away would be quite

31:18

substantial , even though , as

31:21

we know from this book

31:23

what Dr Gallagher is saying

31:25

, that and that other

31:27

Catholic priests would corroborate this

31:29

that often it takes many

31:31

, many resisms to rid

31:33

someone of of

31:36

a demonic possession . So

31:38

yeah , yeah .

31:41

Yeah , good points . I think the

31:43

whole faking , faking

31:45

the gifts thing is something that I believe

31:47

I've seen and I think a number

31:49

of the gifts you know , you , you

31:51

if you have someone who can sell it can

31:54

be faked a little bit , because

32:03

I think it one of the one of the ways

32:05

I would I would be convinced by that is if it

32:07

served a direct purpose . You know , if something

32:10

were happening and somebody else understood

32:12

that the language that was being spoken , and

32:16

I , in the healing one I

32:18

love . I love the healing one because you know there's

32:20

, of course there are charles into fake

32:23

that as well . But you

32:25

know what , when you see it , I think and I

32:28

have seen it and it's an

32:30

amazing corroboration but it

32:33

discredits the church and it is by

32:36

definition anti-Christ

32:38

, the spirit of the anti-Christ , to

32:40

pretend to do these things

32:42

for attention or whatever

32:44

that

32:46

conversation . Obviously you know what

32:49

you brought up about a lot of these evangelical

32:53

churches , I think , is

32:55

maybe what pushed me

32:57

back into the Orthodox camp after

33:00

years of not , of

33:02

not really attending Orthodox church , and a lot of that

33:04

came down to living in Asia for a decade . But I've

33:09

seen , seen very often people promote

33:12

it to a rank that are quite immature

33:14

and you know

33:16

all kinds of things can happen because

33:18

of that . And I think that they , you know , may or may

33:20

be explicating the masses you

33:24

know , sorry , I'm not explicating inculcating

33:26

the masses with the wrong

33:28

information . And you

33:31

know , expressing feelings

33:34

rather than facts . And

33:36

you know there's all kinds of heresies that

33:38

can spring up from somebody who , just

33:41

you know , maybe

33:43

isn't ready for it . And I think I've seen that quite

33:45

often , especially in churches

33:47

here in Duluth where I've attended several Bible studies

33:49

, and there's a very

33:52

, you know , a sincere

33:54

person that's delivering

33:56

the Bible study . That just is

33:58

. I don't know , and who

34:00

am I to say whether or not somebody's

34:02

ready , but you know to

34:04

say this again , I think you know , you know it when you see it

34:06

and it's . I'm not

34:08

always convinced by some of these folks and I think you

34:10

know they need a little more time in the oven , so to speak . So

34:13

who

34:16

are we even on for ? Opinions changed right now . All

34:20

right , mr Brian .

34:23

Yeah , so the maybe it's more

34:25

new than opinions changed , but I haven't

34:28

appreciated . Again . Go back to Chapter

34:30

7 . This

34:32

temporary loss of physical ability

34:34

, be it sight or hearing or whatever , that

34:37

was completely new

34:39

to me and it wasn't , you know , one

34:41

of the things that I had come

34:43

across before or knew about . So the

34:46

fact that a demon can

34:48

cause a physical disability

34:52

, almost , and

34:55

it can sort of come and go , just seemed

34:57

quite strange

34:59

and novel to me

35:02

. That was quite unexpected

35:04

, I think .

35:06

And was that alluded to in one of the earlier

35:08

chapters , where a person

35:10

can have a sensation of not feeling

35:12

well and there's no , you

35:15

know , direct cause for it and

35:17

you know they maybe

35:19

suggested , the author maybe suggested it could be

35:21

demon activity . Am I thinking of a different book

35:23

?

35:24

No , no no , you're right . So earlier on I think they

35:26

talked about , you know , people would have bruising and

35:28

, through physical

35:31

, the

35:33

signs of being under physical attack , even

35:35

though there was no evidence of any

35:37

physical being attacking them . So

35:40

that I sort of thought , all right , yeah , I can get

35:42

with that , but this ability where you can lose

35:45

one of your senses particularly

35:47

I think he talks about sight and hearing

35:49

because of a demon , you

35:52

know , being possessed and deciding this is

35:54

the way they're going to attack you . I hadn't come

35:56

across that before .

35:59

Yeah , it's interesting , that's interesting

36:01

, yeah , I think he also

36:04

mentioned how pernicious

36:07

it is to have a demonic possession

36:09

that's attacking you in that way

36:11

, because it essentially prevents you

36:13

from you

36:16

know . One hand you're spiritually

36:18

tormented and on the other hand , anytime

36:21

a Bible is

36:23

put in front of you or someone

36:25

, Someone who

36:27

from a certainly from a Christian

36:29

perspective is is

36:32

trying to help you with your possession

36:34

, your years working

36:36

, you can't read the scriptures

36:39

, and yeah , exactly yeah

36:41

, it's gotta be very , very

36:43

taxing . And then

36:45

you know , if someone is afflicted

36:48

in that way , you almost can't blame

36:51

them from a human perspective

36:53

of just saying , well , this is clearly not

36:55

for me , forget it , I'm just not going to

36:58

bother dealing

37:00

with my spiritual

37:02

affliction , it's just not meant for

37:04

me , right ?

37:05

And also the pain

37:07

she was , in effect , her ears . Whatever

37:10

she , she actually heard sort of the

37:12

priest talking or somebody from church

37:14

who tried to come along and help her . Yeah , just

37:16

sit , I had that point

37:18

.

37:19

Yeah and you yeah . Good points , really

37:21

good points . All

37:24

right , questions or objections ? Hillary ?

37:30

So I'm referring to Chuck

37:33

to write when the author

37:35

was talking about Father Jack , who

37:38

it seemed to me that all

37:41

his sexism has really taken

37:43

his its total nice health

37:45

. But

37:49

he seemed very knowledgeable

37:54

and , you

37:57

know , senior

37:59

figure . But

38:03

he also said

38:05

that even his prayers are

38:07

answered in God's due time and

38:09

manner and suggested that

38:11

he you know

38:13

even the exorcisms he did

38:16

as a senior church person

38:18

didn't always go

38:20

as they

38:22

told .

38:26

Yeah , that is interesting . It got me

38:28

thinking about the fig tree in the Gospels

38:30

, and it's an example

38:32

of something not happening immediately . Even when

38:35

the Son of God spoke to

38:37

the fig tree , you shall not produce fruit

38:39

, something happened . But they

38:41

came back to it and obviously it was withered away and that

38:45

you know , things happen in their time . I

38:47

think , yeah , that's

38:50

a yeah good

38:53

, good point , good point

38:55

, all right . Questions

38:58

or objections ? Darren .

39:02

So I guess this is a question

39:04

in chapter eight . He's

39:10

just Dr Gallagher's discussing how

39:13

some decades

39:15

ago there were just

39:17

a dozen exorcists in the Catholic

39:20

church in the United States

39:22

then , and

39:24

now that has increased about tenfold

39:27

and still the

39:30

demand for exorcisms

39:34

on those priests far exceeds

39:36

their ability to perform

39:38

exorcisms . Like it's just , you know , they

39:40

simply don't have the time to meet

39:43

the demand . And

39:46

my question is you

39:48

know what happened in

39:50

the ? What

39:53

changed , I suppose ? Was it an issue where

39:55

, say , 30 years ago

39:57

, a lot of people were demonically

39:59

possessed but everyone was just unaware

40:02

of it and not thinking

40:04

of dealing with it ? Or is

40:06

there something in the last 30 years that has

40:08

changed that has made

40:11

the demonic

40:13

realm

40:16

much more able

40:18

to take a much firmer hold on

40:20

the American population , or

40:22

whatever reasons ?

40:27

In the early chapters of the book I believe he

40:29

alluded to the notion of gradation

40:31

or of possession

40:34

that you know , essentially

40:36

, that there are varying levels of

40:39

demonic activity within a person and

40:41

you know some of the symptoms of

40:43

that . And I actually think

40:45

it's much deeper than that . I think that

40:48

, in

40:51

terms of how the scripture alludes to the fact that

40:53

we have will but not free will

40:55

, I think that's very interesting

40:57

, that we do have will and

41:00

we can choose to do things . But

41:03

Christ even says you know , a

41:06

demon can be removed from a person , but if the person continues

41:08

in their ways , and that that demon will bring

41:11

in seven more . I think

41:13

and this is just a personal opinion , but kind

41:15

of putting pieces together from the scripture

41:17

and from what we see in this book and then you

41:20

know , maybe what we see around the world , that

41:23

people are always under the influence of

41:25

something , and

41:31

when you get that whisper in your ear to

41:33

say something or you get a clever

41:36

thought that pops out of nowhere , even

41:39

even a biting remark

41:41

or a witty comment or or any

41:43

old thing , I

41:45

suspect that it's not always our

41:48

mind at work there and

41:50

I think that you

41:55

know there are people who are maybe more

41:58

aware of what's going on . But there are also

42:00

people who are completely

42:02

at the whims of whatever it is behind the scenes

42:05

and they're okay with it because

42:07

you know it gives them an ability

42:09

perhaps to be a comedian and

42:12

to be really sort of vulgar and to make really

42:14

funny remarks or whatever it might

42:16

be , and that I

42:18

don't know if this this really dovetails

42:21

that well into what you just said . But I think that

42:24

everyone

42:26

is intermingling

42:29

with , with whatever these things are all

42:31

the time and

42:34

some people are really sort of

42:36

thrashed by them , like we see in this book . But

42:39

the need for , you know

42:41

, demonic removal , exorcism

42:43

is , you know , prominent

42:45

, you know , probably more now than ever , I guess

42:48

, but as long winded opinion

42:50

, but just kind

42:52

of jumping on .

42:53

Like you said , there's a one

42:56

of the Russian saints and

42:58

I'm very bad at remembering their

43:00

names , but have

43:03

wrote a little bit about demonic

43:06

activity and he

43:08

in his writings he says

43:10

that the , the

43:13

demons , their most common

43:15

form of , I guess

43:18

, would be demonic oppression

43:20

, as Dr Gallagher

43:22

categorizes it is that

43:25

they they seek

43:27

to build addictions

43:29

. So they'll start , like he said

43:32

they really put it like a

43:34

demon is like a bird that is flying

43:36

over your head and putting thoughts in your

43:38

ears , the thoughts of

43:40

evil in your ears , and

43:43

then it's up to

43:45

our will how

43:47

we respond to those

43:50

thoughts and ideas of temptation

43:52

. And he said

43:54

don't , don't let

43:56

the demon , don't let the bird make a nest

43:59

in your hair . So that would be like the

44:01

, the , that

44:03

addiction taking hold of your

44:05

life , or that thought turning

44:07

into an addiction that takes hold

44:10

of your life . And

44:12

yeah , I guess that plays a little bit into

44:14

into what you just said

44:16

earlier .

44:18

Yeah , yeah , I'm sorry , brian , go on

44:20

.

44:22

I just think if you look sort

44:25

of across the Western world almost

44:28

I always say it as a reservoir If you

44:30

look at the number of churches and Christian communities

44:32

, you can always talk about

44:34

how many of these people who went to church

44:37

traditionally really believed , or they just went because

44:39

it was a socially acceptable thing

44:41

to do . They had to go to church on Sunday because

44:43

there's nothing else to do , and everybody

44:45

. It was always expected in a normal

44:48

society or a decent society that you went

44:50

there . So , taking all that kind of side , I'm

44:52

sure there still was a reservoir of

44:55

protection , almost inoculation

44:57

that gave you because you went and heard the Bible

45:00

, you , you , you heard the pictures , you were

45:02

warned about these things , and that's just

45:05

certainly in the UK is declining

45:07

quite remarkably over the last 50 , 60

45:10

years . So I don't think it's any surprise that

45:12

demons are able to get to get hold

45:14

and become more than an issue . It's

45:17

because , if you like , that the good side seems

45:20

to be , seems to be way into someone . So

45:22

I don't think it's very surprising .

45:25

Sure . But you know , on the comment

45:27

, just comment on the inoculation , the

45:29

statement that you made , I think that you

45:32

know even people being in the presence of Christ didn't

45:34

didn't perhaps

45:36

inoculate them from sinning or doing

45:39

the wrong thing . And

45:42

I it's no surprise to anyone

45:45

globally who's been to a church that there's

45:48

only a certain population of attendees

45:50

in any , you know , any

45:52

congregation that are really , you

45:55

know , nose to the grindstone , you know

45:57

, invested in what's going on . Perhaps

45:59

and that's not , you know , my

46:03

judgment on anyone , I think it's just quantifiably

46:06

true . You know you go into any church

46:08

and there's people that are just there because maybe

46:10

they want to get their kids involved in a positive community

46:13

, or or , you know , they

46:15

just want a place to meet some nice people

46:17

who you know might be you

46:19

know , potential business partners or I don't know

46:21

any reason can be invented , but

46:24

the there's only

46:26

a small population that's there to to

46:29

really feed on Christ , so to speak , and

46:32

in most congregations I would assume . So

46:35

, yeah , I don't know , I don't know

46:38

if you know , I

46:40

don't know proximity

46:42

to , to people performing

46:45

prayers is necessarily

46:47

the inoculation , unless those

46:49

prayers are specifically for you . But

46:51

it's an interesting point . Yeah , Maybe

46:54

I'm just thinking out loud . All

46:57

right , let's see

46:59

who are we on for

47:02

. We're doing questions or objections

47:04

. Is this Brian ?

47:06

Yeah , no , nothing for me .

47:09

Okay , yeah , I guess the only question

47:11

or objection I would have is I

47:14

think that throughout the book , dr

47:18

Gallagher has stated that there's

47:22

a dichotomy between illness

47:25

and , you know

47:27

, mental illness rather and

47:30

non-demon

47:34

instigated issues and

47:36

then demon instigated issues , and

47:40

I don't know if I agree with that . I think that throughout the scripture

47:43

, whenever Christ

47:45

is is dealing with

47:47

someone who has a problem , whether it

47:49

be a severe demon possession or just , you

47:55

know , in illness there is

47:58

, you

48:01

know what . I want to let that thought maybe , maybe

48:04

Mature a little

48:06

bit more , because I think that my

48:08

assumption is that all of these things Find

48:11

their root in spiritual activity . But

48:14

I don't know quite how to define it because I don't obviously

48:17

know what's going on , but I think that

48:19

it maybe it's a misnomer

48:21

to assume that some of these things

48:23

are just innocuous Issues

48:26

that have nothing to do the spiritual activity

48:28

. I think they all find their root in spiritual activity

48:30

somehow and , like

48:33

Darren said , you know , some of them come from addiction

48:35

, that's , it's caused by , you know

48:37

, perhaps a whisper in the ear , more , I don't

48:40

know . Yeah , I'm thinking out loud . I'll

48:43

have a sip of my coffee and just pretend I didn't say anything

48:45

.

48:47

I'm not sure I agree with . I agree

48:49

, some of them maybe , but I'm not sure by any means . I've

48:51

been saying that all the elements are , I

48:54

think in the gospel doesn't say you know , somebody

48:56

asked Jesus can't remember

48:58

the who it was , you know

49:00

he brought a , neil Pristin . He said was this

49:02

basically , was it the mother's fault or the father's

49:04

fault or the grandparents fault on your ? I

49:07

think it was a fairly clear answer . That was it

49:09

was none of those . It wasn't the

49:12

issue the guy or that the person had got

49:14

wasn't his fault or his parents fault or

49:16

anything like that . It was just you know , I've

49:18

got a chosen to let evil

49:20

in this incarnation be

49:22

there .

49:23

Sure , yeah , yeah . But I mean I don't

49:25

mean well , maybe I should have clarified

49:27

it I don't mean activity as

49:29

a choice by the person , but

49:31

you know perhaps the

49:34

evil , you know allowing that degradation

49:37

, that perhaps you know mutation

49:39

of a cell or whatever it might be . So

49:44

it's a very unclear thought . I'm just kind of maybe

49:46

thinking out loud , hoping someone will take the reins for me

49:48

, but I

49:51

guess it's like sort of jump on

49:54

that .

49:55

It makes you wonder what kind of world

49:57

it would be if there was no , no

50:00

fall In terms

50:02

of the fall in the Garden of Eden

50:04

, right ? So it from

50:06

my understanding , in the Garden

50:08

of Eden there would be no sickness

50:11

, pain , destruction , that

50:13

sort of thing . So then , in a sense

50:15

, all All

50:17

of that , whether it's addiction

50:20

or illness or whatever

50:22

, not that it's necessarily caused

50:24

by demonic possession or the invitation

50:26

of the demonic , but it's the

50:29

nature of the

50:31

general evil and the fall in our world

50:33

.

50:35

My brother-in-law and I were talking about this

50:37

yesterday , as a matter of fact , and it

50:40

most of it sounds good . You

50:42

know , no fall . But that would also mean no

50:44

more chicken sandwiches or steak or

50:46

anything like that , because Allegedly we're

50:49

supposed to live at harmony with these things . But

50:52

man , are they delicious there ? That

51:08

sounds way more dangerous , to be honest with you .

51:14

So far it's not , it's not pleasant , I tell you

51:16

.

51:18

All right , well , does anyone have any final

51:20

thoughts on the book I

51:22

?

51:24

Have to say I find these , I'm finding these

51:26

chapters quite easy reading

51:28

. So it's almost like telling a story in

51:30

a narrative . So it's , yeah

51:33

, I'm enjoying

51:36

it . Yeah , it's fun , I'm enjoying it . Yeah , it's

51:38

fun . I think it's actual topic says

51:40

discussing quite frightening , really no

51:53

, but I think there's informative . I think he says very

51:56

clearly in all the cases of possession

51:58

, when you delve into it , there's been something

52:00

Pretty sinister

52:03

and you know , in terms of which is

52:05

coven or making a deal with the devil

52:07

. And yeah , there's a very clear choice

52:09

at some stage in your life where you've you've

52:12

entered into this , invited

52:14

the demons in . And I don't think he's , you

52:16

know . He says in all the cases , are the

52:18

people made an act to start with ? It eventually

52:21

comes out when it's true demonic possession

52:23

, there's been an invitation for

52:25

that , believe for the devil or just want

52:27

some kind of part with devil .

52:32

On the note of scary , I made the same mistake I made

52:34

a few months or a few weeks ago , when we were Before

52:37

we had our last book club , where

52:40

I waited for everyone to go to bed and I

52:42

started washing the dishes and it was dark and I

52:45

listened to the audio version of the book and I

52:48

swear things were flying around the corner of my eyes

52:50

the whole time . I was , you know , turning my

52:52

head left and right , but Just

52:54

me being an idiot . You're

53:02

. You're ahead of your time , brian . This

53:04

is don't don't hide your

53:06

wisdom under a bushel sitting on the hilltop .

53:13

I'm not sure if you take that advice , perhaps that's

53:15

not good advice either .

53:17

It's fine . She's a willing sacrifice

53:19

, All

53:22

right . So

53:24

who's doing closing prayer ? Oh

53:28

sweet Hillary .

53:33

Thank you , father , that we can

53:35

meet together , that

53:37

we can discuss All

53:40

these things together and

53:43

that we can further

53:46

our knowledge of you and World

53:49

around us . I

53:53

pray that you'd be with each office

53:56

as we continue in

53:59

your world . Amen

54:02

.

54:03

Amen .