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This is a true crime podcast as the

2:34

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2:37

your warning that it's not suitable for children.

2:39

And it probably will contain content that may

2:41

be triggering to some people. Also,

2:43

it's an Australian true crime podcast. So

2:46

Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners

2:48

should be aware it may contain the

2:50

voices of deceased people. The

2:54

producers of this podcast

2:57

recognise the traditional owners of the land on

3:00

which it's recorded. They

3:03

pay respect to the Aboriginal

3:06

elders past, present and those emerging.

3:15

Our guest today is Michelle Little. In

3:19

February this year, she watched for the second time as

3:21

two teenagers fought for their freedom after taking

3:23

the life of her 15 year old son, Angus, in

3:27

a Brisbane park in 2020. They

3:29

were aged just 13 and 14 at

3:32

the time of the lethal stabbing. One was

3:34

on bail for armed robbery and

3:36

the other was on probation.

3:39

They both had significant histories of violent

3:41

assault. But even though

3:43

Angus's final moments were captured on CCTV, the

3:46

boys successfully appealed their initial convictions for

3:49

his stabbing death and won a retrial. That

3:53

judge-only trial began in December 2020. and

4:00

ended with one of the boys being

4:03

found guilty of murder and the other

4:05

guilty of manslaughter. They

4:07

were sentenced to nine years and six

4:09

years respectively, however each of

4:11

them is expected to serve around half

4:14

of those sentences. I

4:16

spoke to Angus' mum Michelle Little from

4:18

her home in Redcliffe in Brisbane's outer

4:21

north, which is a suburb

4:23

I know very well having lived there

4:25

myself when my children were babies. He

4:31

was actually grounded that week. It

4:34

was heartbreaking because we thought we were

4:36

being so hard on him and

4:38

he was a good kid and

4:41

he worked. He worked at all the school

4:43

holidays and that with his

4:46

father and you know he'd been working

4:48

since he was so little and

4:51

we thought oh look

4:54

we hummed in hard about letting him go

4:56

because he was only just starting to be

4:58

allowed out you know

5:00

at night. I said

5:02

you can't be home any later than nine you've

5:05

got work with dad in the morning.

5:08

We just went about now afternoon

5:12

and habit sort of because he gets

5:14

up you know real early for work

5:16

so I was you know

5:19

just doing whatever you do with the mum

5:21

you know things around then house. TV

5:24

was on I wasn't really watching it.

5:26

I kept hearing the

5:29

phone ring and

5:31

Ben's phone ring and

5:33

he wasn't answering it because he thought

5:36

it was just spam

5:38

just you know the usual

5:41

telemarketers and things and you

5:44

know it got to like five to nine

5:46

and as a mother you're always that lead

5:48

up to that checking time you're like especially

5:51

when they're just starting to go out I

5:53

couldn't wait so I jumped

5:55

the gun and I was ringing and

5:58

they didn't answer and ringing

6:00

again going, Angus, you've got a

6:02

hand for me. Pick

6:04

up your phone and then messaging

6:06

and say, please

6:09

call. Then

6:13

while I was on the phone, he

6:16

finally picked up the call and answered

6:19

it. And

6:21

all I heard was, pretty

6:25

mean he's in recess. And I

6:28

ran to the room and said, what's going on?

6:31

And he goes, we've got to get to the hospital. Angus

6:34

is hurt. They

6:36

won't tell me much and

6:39

he's in recess. I grabbed

6:41

things, I grabbed stupid things that

6:43

I didn't even need. I didn't know what

6:45

to do. And

6:47

we bundled up our youngest and

6:49

then ran him across the road

6:51

to our neighbours. And our friend

6:53

and we asked her if

6:55

she could watch him. We got

6:58

in the car and we got

7:00

to the hospital. And we ran

7:02

from the car, we actually left the car, on,

7:05

the door was open, on,

7:08

the battery went flat because we

7:10

just left it there. And ran to emergency doors and a

7:12

medicine at the door. And

7:17

it was like the world just slowed down. I

7:20

can't believe I was in the hospital. I

7:22

was down, I can't

7:24

even describe it. And we were

7:26

taken to a room and asked

7:29

to sit there and wait.

7:31

And it felt

7:33

like hours. We

7:35

were given a pack by police. He

7:37

was asked questions and himself had to

7:39

actually come in and be

7:41

interviewed so he could be crossed

7:44

out as being any

7:46

part of it. So they didn't know.

7:49

They didn't know on the night the police. On

7:51

the night they had an

7:54

inkling I guess. But you know,

7:57

and they got straight on the next

7:59

day to... finding out. So no

8:01

one the night there if I'd

8:03

have been on Facebook I would have seen

8:05

all these things. I would have actually found

8:07

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8:10

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8:57

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9:13

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9:55

He was in his normal circle

9:57

of friends that night and

10:00

And some of them either weren't

10:02

going or couldn't go. So he's

10:04

met up with this group. Now

10:06

he is waiting at McDonald's and

10:08

we've seen he sent these little

10:11

Spongebob bands, you know, we're fine,

10:13

I'm really bored sitting here. And

10:17

they messaged him and met him up and

10:20

they went to 7-11. And

10:24

then they went back

10:26

over to the park. Now

10:28

this is something I'm trying to

10:30

remember but I

10:32

think that group had met before

10:34

they met up with Angus. I

10:36

think they'd met up

10:38

with those two boys and

10:41

apparently there

10:44

was conversation about getting wet and

10:47

one of the boys had wet. And

10:49

anyway they met up with Angus after that and

10:51

then they went back to the park. Now

10:55

as a parent, you know, I can't

10:58

understand how he didn't come

11:00

home once he knew what was going on.

11:02

And that was my first

11:05

thing was like, oh my God, you're

11:07

in shock. You're in shock. You're

11:09

like, how the hell did

11:11

he end up in that

11:13

situation that is totally foreign to

11:15

him? How the hell?

11:18

And you know, like apparently when

11:20

they did meet him actually going back,

11:23

when they met him over at McDonald's

11:26

and now this boy tried to get

11:28

Angus to take a knife at

11:30

McDonald's and you

11:32

could see him in no way. He's like,

11:35

no way. But these

11:37

kids given him knuckle dusters instead

11:39

and Angus has put them in

11:41

their pockets. I'm guessing assuming I

11:43

don't want to take that weapon. I'll

11:46

just put them in on, you know. Like

11:49

I said, they ended up, they went over there.

11:52

That boy and the other boy were near the

11:55

bathroom and that's apparently where it

11:57

all went down. And

12:00

then what's unfolded is, like I

12:03

said, these boys have made it.

12:05

Angus was way

12:07

back somewhere with this girl. And

12:10

these boys made this

12:12

deal, then all of a

12:14

sudden knives were drawn. And,

12:16

you know, these two boys

12:19

that were wanting to buy weed were

12:22

saying they had a third

12:24

person there, or a mate that they got

12:26

to bring down money. Then,

12:28

you know, that group set off

12:30

after the two boys out of

12:33

Angus' group, and all

12:35

the kids ran off, Angus stayed

12:37

with the girl and went

12:39

with her away. They actually

12:41

hid behind a

12:44

bush, and I'm watching

12:46

this as a mother-in-court. And

12:50

you know the end of this is

12:52

your child dies, but you still

12:55

see him there. They could please

12:57

don't come out from behind there.

13:00

But he stayed with the girl. The

13:02

two offenders pursued these

13:05

other kids, and they're

13:07

walking towards this boy. He's got the

13:09

bag held out, telling them he'll give

13:11

them the bag if they'll just go

13:14

away. Angus has heard

13:16

him coming and stuck

13:19

his head out to see, like, what's

13:21

going on. And with that,

13:25

he's passed Angus a knife, and you

13:27

see, Angus hold it up to look

13:29

at it. And then these

13:31

boys are just metres away,

13:33

and he steps forward and tells

13:35

them to, excuse my French, fuck

13:37

off, and

13:40

then steps back and puts that

13:42

down behind his leg. These

13:44

boys have just launched on

13:46

Angus. It was not a

13:49

fight. He asked them to, if

13:51

off go away, they just were

13:53

on him, like, just pack animals.

13:55

If you've ever seen two wolves

13:57

coming at prey, one

13:59

would be... behind him at the back on the

14:01

side, one was in front of

14:04

him and they were just, it

14:06

all happened within seconds Angus was

14:08

gone. The boy from the front

14:10

was stabbing, he at one

14:13

point nicked Angus on

14:15

the chest. I don't know whether it

14:17

went through his clothing but you see

14:19

Angus step back and grab his clothing.

14:21

Then Angus has

14:23

thrown a punch, the other

14:25

boy was behind Angus and

14:28

he knew Angus was distracted and

14:30

he knew Angus was out of

14:32

his depth. You can literally see

14:34

the fear in Angus and

14:37

this boy has come from the back of his side

14:39

and he stabbed

14:41

him. He just stabbed that blade

14:43

straight from his back and went

14:45

through Angus's chest. I couldn't

14:47

work out why there was two wounds

14:50

when we got the coroner's

14:52

report but that was from

14:54

the blade going through and then in

14:56

flashes of a night, I started

14:59

remembering later on like cuts

15:01

across my son's hand where

15:04

he'd obviously tried to grab the

15:06

blade from the other boy to

15:09

stop it. But it all happened

15:11

so quickly even having watched that

15:13

video so many times. It's

15:16

just over in seconds,

15:19

in seconds you know and like

15:21

I said as Angus fell, this

15:23

boy tried to stab him again as

15:26

he fell, the main offender and

15:29

then they slapped hands and they

15:31

skipped off. Do you mean

15:33

as in high five? Well they

15:36

slapped hands together like job well

15:38

done but that lost the

15:41

first trial because the judge in the

15:43

first trial used high five even though

15:45

he was telling the jury to

15:48

not take the high five into

15:50

account. So not see

15:52

that as a celebratory moment after

15:55

the stabbing? Yeah when they're deliberating

15:57

to not take that into account.

16:00

That was one of the crux

16:02

that they used to win the

16:04

appeal, the fact that he even

16:06

mentioned it. It's

16:08

not a workable system. It really isn't

16:10

a workable system. These two boys. Now,

16:13

the first judge who let them out

16:16

on bail before Angus' murder for

16:18

a series of violent offenses. Now,

16:21

they were already big into

16:23

their little criminal career by

16:25

the age of 13, 11, 13, 12, whatever. But

16:31

when they took Angus' life, look,

16:33

they were 14. I think one

16:35

was actually turning 14.

16:39

Oh, okay. So 14 was the elder. Yeah, yeah.

16:41

13 and 14. But,

16:44

you know, the judge had let them

16:46

out in the, somewhere in

16:48

between October and January, they

16:52

were held in detention for other

16:54

violent offenses. They were then

16:56

given bail and they

16:58

then went on to commit more

17:00

offenses even before taking Angus' life.

17:03

And then in the March, they

17:05

took Angus' life. And

17:08

then, you know, after being

17:10

held for, I think it was, was

17:13

it 18 months or less, they

17:16

were bailed again. All

17:18

these other things, the list just went

17:20

on. And these two boys tried to

17:22

claim self-defense. Yes. Oh, yeah,

17:25

yeah. And that Angus scared

17:27

them because he was so big and

17:29

tall and fit that he scared them.

17:33

And I watched that video and there

17:35

was only one person scared. And

17:38

that was Angus. He was

17:40

out of his depth. He just wanted

17:42

them to go away. He was trying

17:44

to protect the other two kids behind him.

18:00

murder by a jury in June last

18:02

year and were sentenced to 9 years

18:04

and 7 years jail respectively. In May

18:06

they appealed in one and faced a

18:09

retrial earlier this month. The younger boy

18:11

who inflicted the fatal wound was again

18:13

found guilty of murder, the other guilty

18:16

of manslaughter. They

18:18

could have walked away, their deaths

18:21

were under no threat, no one

18:23

wanted to hurt them, they just wanted

18:25

them to go away, they could have

18:27

left and then to sit in court

18:30

and like our prosecutor said, you know

18:32

as they're saying, oh they feel so

18:34

bad, you know they have so much

18:36

remorse and you know and like

18:38

our prosecutor said, look remorse is

18:41

just a word written on a piece of

18:43

paper unless you actually mean it

18:45

and it is so true and

18:48

there is no remorse there. They condemned

18:53

Angus to lose 70

18:55

to 80 years of his

18:57

whole life, they erased him

18:59

that night, they cut

19:01

his life completely short, they had

19:03

that choice and they took that

19:05

action and they done that and

19:07

one of the main offender had

19:10

actually talked to friends about how

19:12

he'd wanted to kill someone, he'd

19:14

wanted to stand someone, experience

19:16

killing someone. So how

19:18

much more premeditate could you

19:20

get than that? On

19:23

an end note if I could say one

19:25

thing is let's get on

19:28

and let's fill a need and

19:30

get into early rehabilitation, let's

19:32

you know before these kids

19:34

are born, before they even

19:36

take their first breath in

19:38

the world, let's deal

19:41

with the need that's there

19:43

now for rehabilitation. I think if we

19:45

step on that first and

19:48

if we set the laws

19:50

up, we're going to have

19:52

to address the hardcore offenders

19:55

and I think if we address them and

19:57

that new lot coming through see that there

19:59

is a... repercussions of your

20:01

actions and that it's not a

20:03

walk in the park, it will act

20:05

as a deterrent, but then we

20:07

can come from the back and

20:09

fill that void with ample

20:12

help to just redirect

20:14

them. He

20:16

was special and I

20:18

say it all the time, he would have been someone

20:20

amazing and he really

20:23

would have and now

20:25

we all feel like a

20:28

bit like the lost tribe without

20:30

him. Thank

20:37

you to our guest today, Michelle Little. If

20:42

you need support after listening to this podcast, you

20:44

can call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or

20:48

contact 1800RESPECT on 1800 737 732 or 1800respect.org.au.

20:57

Indigenous Australians can contact 13 Yarn on

20:59

13 92 76 or 13yarn.org.au. Thank

21:08

you for downloading this episode of Australian True Crime.

21:11

We'll be back next week. Tired

21:19

of ads interrupting your gripping

21:21

investigations? Good news! Ad-free

21:23

listening is available on Amazon Music for

21:25

all the music plus top podcasts included

21:27

with your Prime membership. Ads

21:29

shouldn't be the scariest thing about

21:32

true crime. Start listening by downloading

21:34

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21:36

or go to amazon.com/true crime ad

21:38

free. That's amazon.com/true crime ad free

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