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2:43

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2:45

Australian, Aboriginal, and Torres Strait Islander listeners

2:48

should be aware it may contain the

2:50

voices of deceased people. The

2:57

producers of this podcast recognize

3:00

the traditional owners of the

3:02

land on which it's recorded.

3:05

I pay respect to

3:07

the Aboriginal elders past,

3:09

present, and those emerging.

3:14

More failings in the youth justice

3:16

system have been laid bare as

3:18

two boys face sentencing for murder,

3:21

including the youngest in Queensland history.

3:23

Angus Beaumont was stabbed in the

3:25

heart at Redcliffe by teenagers on

3:27

probation for other crimes. Our

3:35

guest today is Michelle Little. In

3:38

February this year, she watched for the

3:40

second time as two teenagers fought for

3:43

their freedom after taking the life of

3:45

her 15-year-old son, Angus, in a Brisbane

3:47

park in 2020. They were aged just

3:50

13 and 14 at the

3:52

time of the lethal stabbing. One

3:54

was on bail for armed robbery and

3:56

the other was on probation. They

3:59

both had significant... African histories of violent

4:01

assaults. But even

4:03

though Angus's final moments were captured

4:06

on CCTV, the boys successfully appealed

4:08

their initial convictions for his stabbing

4:10

death and won a retrial. That

4:13

judge-only trial began in December 2023

4:16

and ended with one of the

4:18

boys being found guilty of murder

4:20

and the other guilty of manslaughter.

4:23

They were sentenced to nine years and

4:25

six years respectively. However, each

4:28

of them is expected to serve around

4:30

half of those sentences. I

4:33

spoke to Angus's mum Michelle Little from

4:35

her home in Redcliffe in Brisbane's outer

4:37

north, which is a suburb

4:39

I know very well, having lived there

4:41

myself when my children were babies. That

4:48

night I was even talking to Hubby the other

4:50

night and I said, I can't

4:52

even remember whether I picked him up, Ben

4:55

picked him up or he rode his bike

4:57

home that night. But

4:59

I remember his new laptop showed

5:01

up and his new

5:03

skateboard. His brother had given him

5:05

his old motorbike because

5:08

Angus was signing up for a

5:10

small engine and a business

5:12

course through school. He'd

5:15

sort of hit that hormonal team

5:17

stage where he had been having

5:19

a bit of trouble getting him

5:21

to school and also he'd just

5:23

broken up with his girlfriend and

5:25

gone into this big, you know,

5:27

it's the end of the world

5:29

for boys and he'd

5:31

gone into this big, deep depression and

5:34

we're just trying to bring him back

5:36

up and everything else. But yeah, he

5:38

decided he wasn't going to work on

5:41

the motorbike anymore because he tried and

5:43

he got his brother's friends in

5:45

to help and there was going

5:47

to be too hard getting certain parts and

5:49

doing it. So he was told he was

5:51

allowed to sell it if that was what

5:53

he wanted to do. So like I said,

5:55

he ordered these things and

5:57

you would use some shoes allowed.

6:00

the laptop and skateboard. The laptop

6:02

and skateboard showed up that afternoon

6:04

and he'd already got on

6:06

board trying to set it up. He'd

6:08

already been in contact with his

6:10

mates. You know, I'm running a bit behind

6:13

school. He was actually grounded

6:15

that week. It was heartbreaking

6:17

because we thought we were being

6:20

so hard on him and he was

6:22

a good kid and he worked.

6:25

He worked all the school holidays

6:27

and that with his

6:29

father and he'd been working

6:31

since he was so little

6:33

and we thought,

6:36

oh look, we hummed in hard about letting

6:38

him go because he was only just starting

6:40

to be allowed out at

6:43

night. He was

6:46

a nerdy on his computer all

6:48

the time and I actually felt bad because

6:50

I said, you've got to get out and

6:52

see your son, not just

6:55

living anywhere. God,

6:57

after we lost him, the guilt

7:00

of that, saying to him

7:04

that he needed to socialise

7:07

more. I wish I'd never but

7:10

that night he'd come to

7:13

me and he said, Mum, I

7:15

want to go to Picnic Hill

7:17

with the food trucks that

7:20

you have up here near the skate park.

7:23

I'd done that

7:25

thing like Mum threw us, rushing around

7:27

and grabbing stuff at our washing machine at

7:29

Brogan. I was putting washing together and I

7:32

was going to go over to the neighbours and

7:34

do it until we could organise repairs. I said

7:36

to him, Angus, who are you going

7:38

with? You're not going until you tell me who you're

7:40

going with and we were having

7:42

a discussion but then I was on the

7:44

phone as well and he was talking and

7:47

asking Mum to go

7:50

shopping for food. Nothing

7:53

stuff. Anyway, I hopped off

7:55

the phone and said, Look, I'll

7:57

come back and talk to you and you can

7:59

tell me. me who you plan to go

8:02

with and we'll work out times. I

8:04

said you can't be home any later

8:06

than nine. You've got work with

8:08

Dad in the morning. He had

8:11

a six o'clock start and I said you

8:13

either can do Uber or

8:16

bus but you have to call us

8:18

or we'll pick you up. But I said you

8:20

have to check in at nine o'clock and I

8:22

said that's once I find out who you're going

8:24

with and I said I'll be back. Anyway

8:27

I went across the road, took washing crafts

8:29

and of course you get talking with the

8:31

neighbours. Half an hour later I come

8:34

back and teenage boys,

8:36

being teenage boys, he already

8:38

got ready. He grabbed this

8:40

new skateboard and he'd gone

8:42

to Dad for that second

8:45

opinion. I talked to his

8:48

father and probably told Ben

8:50

Mum said I could go and

8:53

got $50 off his Dad for

8:55

food and bus or Uber

9:00

and I come home.

9:05

Sorry, he was already gone.

9:09

I caught sight of Angus

9:12

going around the corner. I

9:14

thought out the corner of my eye but I

9:16

wasn't sure. But I spoke

9:19

to his father and he said that

9:22

he'd given him money and how to talk to him

9:24

but that was a Dad talk, not a Mum talk.

9:29

We just went about our afternoon

9:32

and habit sort of because he

9:35

gets up real early for work.

9:38

I was just doing

9:40

whatever you do as a Mum, things

9:43

around the house. TV

9:45

was on, I wasn't really watching it.

9:48

I kept hearing the phone ring and Ben's

9:51

phone ring and

9:54

he wasn't answering it

9:56

because he thought it was just

9:58

spam. the

10:01

usual telemarketers and things and

10:04

you know it got to like five to

10:07

nine and as a mother you always that

10:09

lead up to that checking time you're like

10:11

especially when they're just starting to go out I

10:14

couldn't wait so I jumped

10:16

the gun and I was ringing

10:18

and they didn't answer and ringing

10:21

again going Angus you've got a

10:23

hand for me pick up

10:25

your phone and then messaging

10:27

and say please call.

10:34

While I was on the phone he

10:36

finally picked up the call and answered

10:40

it and all

10:42

I heard was pretty

10:46

mean he's in recess and

10:50

I ran to the room you

10:52

know and said what's going on and

10:55

he goes we've got to get to the hospital and

10:58

Angus is hurt they

11:00

won't tell me much and he's

11:02

in recess and

11:04

I don't know why but I I

11:07

knew it was horrendous the thought

11:09

like recess and you hear that

11:12

you don't think anything good I

11:15

grabbed things I grabbed stupid things that

11:17

I didn't even need I wish I didn't

11:19

know what to do and we

11:21

bundled up our youngest and Ben

11:24

ran him across the road to our neighbours

11:27

and our friend and we asked her

11:29

if she could watch him we

11:31

got in the car and I

11:34

was telling Ben to drive carefully just

11:36

drive carefully by the end of

11:38

it I'm screaming at him don't wait

11:40

for the lights just go just

11:43

go and we got

11:45

to the hospital and we ran from

11:47

the car we actually left the car

11:50

on door was open on

11:53

the battery went flat because we just left

11:55

it there and ran to emergency

11:58

doors and and

12:00

a medicine at the door

12:02

and it was like the world just slowed

12:04

down. I can't

12:07

even describe it. And we were

12:09

taken to a room and asked

12:11

to sit there in white and

12:14

it felt like hours. I

12:17

was losing it. I just kept

12:19

saying, I want to see him, I want

12:21

to see him. And then a

12:24

group of nurses and I don't

12:26

know a doctor, I couldn't see. I

12:29

still can't remember faces from that night

12:31

by the nurse that was at the

12:33

end of Angus's bed. But

12:35

they came in and

12:38

they were talking and

12:41

I see Ben's reaction

12:43

but you just can't

12:45

take it all in. You're in

12:47

shock. And then we were

12:49

left again to wait, I

12:52

think, for police were doing, taking

12:54

prints and doing whatever. But

12:57

I, it sounds crazy but

12:59

I started, it's

13:02

like, I can't explain

13:04

you so frustrated and you just

13:06

want to go. And I started

13:08

actually rocking and

13:11

just hitting my head and you don't even

13:13

realise what you're doing on the back wall

13:15

because you're going into some

13:18

sort of shock. And

13:20

when we walked out of the

13:22

room and the police said

13:24

they need to speak to someone

13:26

and Ben went with them. My

13:30

daughter arrived up at

13:32

the hospital, thanks to Owen, she came

13:34

and sat in with me.

13:38

Ben just walked in and

13:40

walked out of it. He just couldn't, he couldn't

13:43

see his son there like that.

13:45

It was just too much. And

13:47

I just couldn't

13:51

register that. You just as a

13:53

parent, your child's

13:55

alive and full of energy.

14:00

to the bus stop that you know you think, you're going

14:03

to be home and you're just waiting here

14:05

and the mother you're waiting here, you know,

14:07

you just want them back home. I

14:10

try to help Brittany's home and

14:14

I just thank him to Bruce. I'm

14:17

so grateful for my daughter.

14:21

She's had to be a

14:23

tower of strength and you

14:25

know that's been a

14:27

lot for her as well and changed

14:29

through. My older

14:32

children are adults and

14:34

so Rhiannon, she was in a late

14:37

20s. She'd only

14:39

ever had like one loss and that

14:41

was her aunt, young her father's died

14:44

which we all adored and

14:46

that was sad. But it's not

14:48

like this. There's nothing like this.

14:50

Lost to violence. It's

14:52

not the same and look I've been

14:54

through a lot in my

14:57

lifetime as my family has. Not

15:00

so much Ben. It was cruel

15:03

because it was his first loss

15:05

and it was the cruelest kind of the

15:08

worst loss. Your

15:10

parents, it's that thing

15:12

that you know they're going to go before

15:15

you. Yeah, it's the natural way. It is.

15:17

You got to have an opportunity

15:20

to say all the things you want to

15:23

say and hug them and comfort

15:25

them. We had

15:27

that right soul and spotless. And

15:31

as a parent that guilt

15:33

of not being there to comfort

15:35

your child, protect your child. You would have

15:38

took the blade for

15:40

them. Especially when

15:42

it's for a child, you're condemned

15:45

to feeling that guilt that

15:47

you dropped the ball. You

15:49

know, you have one

15:51

job, to protect your

15:53

child and you failed.

16:00

heartbreak, you have to

16:02

live with. People

16:04

say, oh you know you can't feel guilt

16:06

but oh God yes you do and that's

16:09

a bit of you are. You

16:11

just are going to feel guilt

16:14

regardless of whatever anyone

16:16

says. I'll

16:18

go back a little bit just quickly with

16:20

the hospital. Loree's and why the police didn't

16:23

actually come and see us like they usually

16:25

were. Okay yes to pick you

16:27

up and take you to the hospital. Well

16:29

I don't know if they pick you up but to let

16:31

us know. The head he

16:33

knows that night was actually a

16:36

friend of Ben's. He worked

16:38

with her at the hospital. I'd

16:40

met her, she was lovely and Angus had

16:42

met her and worked at her home. So

16:45

she knew who Angus was and

16:47

she had the hospital social worker get

16:49

straight on the phone and start calling

16:52

her. So she identified him when he

16:54

came in. Oh yes she

16:56

knew who he was straight up but like

16:58

I said when the number was coming up

17:00

it's just a private number. Absolutely I don't

17:03

answer them at night either. You're waiting for

17:05

his number to pop up. That's exactly right.

17:07

So you know I never

17:09

helped anything against her. She went straight

17:12

into trying to get hold of us

17:14

but I seen that failing in the

17:16

system where you

17:18

know the number needed to come

17:21

up as the hospital as an

17:23

emergency number and you know

17:25

for us that was another hard thing was

17:28

even if Angus and it took us a

17:30

long time to find out whether he was

17:32

alive or dead on arrival because

17:35

when they were over 14 you can't have the

17:37

medical history. So you can't

17:39

be told anything about

17:41

what happened. Yes yep.

17:43

We had to apply for his medical history

17:45

and I don't think we've even got

17:48

it fully yet but you know

17:50

that was a thing for us that

17:52

we weren't there straight away. Again that

17:54

was another thing we had to live

17:56

with. We were given

17:58

a pact by police. asked

18:00

questions, Ben himself had to actually

18:02

come in and be interviewed so

18:05

he could be crossed out as

18:08

being any part of this.

18:10

So they didn't know? They didn't know on

18:12

the night the police? On

18:14

the night they had an

18:17

inkling I guess and

18:19

they got straight on the

18:22

next day to finding out. So no,

18:24

on the night there, if I'd have

18:26

been on Facebook I would have seen all

18:28

these things. I would have actually found out

18:31

before we'd even answered that phone that Angus

18:33

was gone. Wow, so the

18:35

kids, the bush telegraph of Facebook

18:37

or whatever, whatever social media they were on was

18:39

running hot that night. And I think

18:42

even a news reported came out

18:44

already. The next

18:46

day after we lost Angus, we

18:50

were just in shock. And

18:52

Kelly at 12 year olds, unbeknownst

18:55

to me while I was still

18:57

trying to come to grips and organise

18:59

things and we had everything and everyone

19:01

coming at us at once. He

19:04

was on his brother's computer trying

19:07

to find out what happened

19:09

to his brother that night, which

19:12

friends were with his brother and why

19:15

they'd left his brother to die. And that's

19:18

what he was asking Angus's

19:20

friends, you know, who

19:23

was with him and why did you

19:25

leave him to

19:27

die? And that

19:30

broke my heart. There

19:33

was people, because we had to sift

19:35

through all this eventually that had said

19:37

things, but no, on the night we

19:39

didn't know. I did ask Ben

19:41

again, you know, recently, how long

19:44

was it till we went in to

19:47

speak to P and till

19:49

we spoke to them. And it happened on the

19:51

Friday, we

19:53

went in on the Monday and that

19:57

when we started getting more of

19:59

a an idea of the who, you

20:02

know, we read some stuff, we

20:05

knew, you know, how

20:08

he'd been stabbed. But

20:10

what people don't understand is even

20:13

after we went in to speak to police,

20:15

they can tell you what's happened to your

20:17

child. They've been stabbed, they've

20:19

been killed, there's been two offenders

20:21

involved, but they can't tell

20:24

you anything else because

20:26

they're juveniles. We had

20:28

people accusing us of lying

20:30

because we weren't telling them everything.

20:32

We didn't know everything.

20:34

We couldn't have anything.

20:37

It's like you had to go home

20:39

and live with that and the police

20:41

were so apologetic and it's

20:43

so awful for them because you're just

20:45

there begging for anything,

20:48

any information and

20:51

they're bound by legislation

20:53

that states that they

20:55

cannot tell you anything

20:58

to do with these youth cases.

21:01

We actually spoke to five

21:04

different people who'd been attacked

21:06

by these boys eventually and

21:09

they couldn't even see what was

21:11

happening. And yet at the same

21:13

time you've got social media running hot

21:15

with kids gossiping, gossiping.

21:17

There were so many variations

21:19

of what happened and of

21:21

course you had these boys

21:23

knew all the local creams.

21:26

So all of them are

21:29

coming into bat and spreading

21:31

rumours and lies and just

21:33

malicious stuff and everything else.

21:35

And it was,

21:37

oh my God, it was like we

21:39

stepped off into this whole other world.

21:43

And it was like a punch

21:45

to the chest. Every time

21:47

you had to read some of this stuff

21:49

that was being written and

21:52

then like I said, there was two

21:54

different camps. There was one

21:56

lot that were, oh, your

21:59

trash pair. because this happened

22:01

to your child and your child

22:03

must have been trash. And then

22:05

there was this other camp that

22:07

had empathy and sympathy and felt

22:10

for you and were compassionate and

22:12

just wanted to try and support

22:14

you in any

22:16

way they could. And we're

22:18

so thankful for them, for the second

22:21

lot who did stand by

22:23

us and did support us. But

22:25

the other crap, they

22:27

made death so much more

22:30

traumatic and painful. It's

22:32

so hard to believe that anyone could not

22:34

have compassion for you. Whatever

22:37

rumour touch there is, it's

22:39

so hard to believe that

22:41

anyone could be compassionate, whatever the

22:43

word is for a family that loses a

22:45

15-year-old child. I

22:48

mean, look, I didn't even go

22:50

after and rubbish these people in

22:53

their thing. I just

22:56

couldn't understand how they could do what

22:58

they were doing. But it is, we

23:00

call it opposite day. Criminals

23:03

and offenders, they see themselves

23:05

as the victims and

23:07

the victim as the one who's made their

23:10

life measurable. And

23:12

so it's that opposite day. And

23:15

the other thing is that there

23:17

is a lot of victim blaming.

23:19

In the last 10 to 15

23:21

years, we've gone from a society

23:23

that has a lot

23:25

of compassion to a

23:27

society that still has compassionate

23:29

people. But there are

23:31

so many willing to victim blaming.

23:34

I've come to the realisation that

23:37

out of vulnerability and fear,

23:40

they feel like if they

23:42

can, in their own mind, justify

23:45

that this person deserved it in

23:47

some way, that it was

23:49

their own fault, that that makes

23:51

them feel more protected and

23:53

less vulnerable. Like if they

23:55

just do the right thing,

23:58

this type of... horrible

24:00

violence or crime won't ever

24:02

touch them or their family.

24:05

Charlie Bozina said something really interesting

24:07

to me recently. He's the former homicide

24:10

cop. So he sat through a lot

24:12

of court cases. And

24:15

he said to me that he believes that in

24:18

every homicide case, there should be

24:20

a big photograph of the victim just

24:22

sitting there in the courtroom for

24:24

the whole case because really

24:26

simply he said, and I

24:28

think this goes double for youth offenders because

24:31

he said throughout the whole case, we

24:33

can't hear about their previous crimes

24:36

or their previous, any of their previous

24:38

charges or any of their previous activity

24:41

really. But especially

24:44

through sentencing, their defense is going

24:46

to talk up their

24:50

childhood, all of the extenuating

24:52

circumstances in their lives. Their

24:54

whole job is to make

24:56

us feel very sorry and feel a lot

24:58

of empathy for the offender. Oh, absolutely. We

25:00

don't hear a lot about the victim. We

25:03

don't hear a lot about the victim's childhood,

25:06

the victim's life. And

25:08

especially, you know, and I'm not talking about the

25:11

victim's childhood being wanting or being

25:13

unhappy. I mean, just

25:15

about the person who's been lost and their

25:18

family. And we get the victim impact statements.

25:20

We get that one opportunity, and that's a

25:22

fairly new thing in Australia as well, but

25:25

that one opportunity for people to talk

25:27

about the victim. But he makes the

25:29

point that the victim can be lost

25:32

in the process and that's just

25:35

in the judicial system. But I think your

25:38

case is a really good example

25:40

of Angus's story

25:44

being lost and also the story

25:47

of the offenders and who they are and

25:49

have been up to

25:51

this fatal attack being

25:54

lost. But we hear about their troubled childhoods

25:57

and we hear about all the reasons why

25:59

we need to have empathy for them. And

26:02

so what is left is the rumour mill

26:04

about who Angus

26:06

might have been, who you guys might have

26:08

been, who they might have been and there's a lot of

26:11

filling in by other people. Well

26:14

actually on that note, that is

26:16

one thing we were made aware

26:18

of very early on by a

26:21

few people. We

26:23

were lucky enough to come across certain people

26:26

that a criminologist was one

26:28

of them. My

26:30

daughter's stepsister actually worked in a

26:32

legal firm at one stage and

26:35

so she actually went and picked

26:37

some of the lawyers' brains on

26:39

this sort of stuff. And early on

26:41

we knew we had to

26:43

make Angus visible and

26:46

we had to tell his story

26:49

openly and publicly. Just when you want to

26:52

be guarded and just when you want to

26:54

run away in a hide and lock down,

26:57

we had to

26:59

make people understand this

27:01

is a human being. Our child

27:04

was a person. He

27:06

was a boy

27:08

with a life ahead of

27:10

him. He got into his

27:12

high school on excellence programs

27:14

for math, science and English.

27:16

We used to call him

27:19

Big Caves because he was

27:21

always so excited. He

27:23

wanted to experience and do everything.

27:26

Like I said, if we went somewhere on

27:28

holidays, he'd want to try everything, taste

27:31

everything, get out there

27:33

on the track and do this and he'd

27:35

be encouraging his little brother to, �Come on

27:37

Kelly, let's do this�. We

27:41

had to open our lives

27:44

up and open Angus' life up

27:47

and humanise him but that

27:49

was straight up we were told, �You're

27:52

not going to get that in court.

27:54

The defence is going to try and make

27:57

yours look like a thug. They're going to

27:59

try and do it. try and just

28:01

bury him in dirt. You're

28:03

going to have to work double

28:05

hard to get out who Angus

28:08

was and have

28:10

him represented in

28:12

his case because what the defense try and

28:14

do in cases like this is

28:17

there's what's called thug on thug

28:19

violence. They want to

28:21

make the victim look like they

28:23

were just as bad as the

28:25

offenders that dealt the blow. And

28:29

Angus was such a polar opposite

28:31

of these kids, such

28:34

a polar opposite. So straight

28:36

up like originally I got a

28:38

page up that was more for

28:40

my family and friends too because

28:43

they couldn't be at the funeral

28:45

and the little video linked in

28:47

the corner just picking cut it

28:49

and nobody could see photos or

28:51

whatever. But seven months

28:53

in, Ben had put up the justice

28:55

page and yeah, we really, it was

28:59

a labour of love and the job and the labour

29:02

of how it works as well. We had

29:04

to put Angus out there and

29:07

we had to fight the same

29:09

as every action to dehumanise

29:12

our son and it

29:14

is really an eye opener

29:17

to see just how much free

29:19

reign defense has and

29:21

this is the thing that people don't

29:23

understand publicly. When the newspaper is printing,

29:27

what defense said, what was

29:29

said in court, they don't

29:31

understand that defense is

29:33

literally making up scenarios.

29:37

It's legal lies. They're allowed to make

29:39

up whatever this big story is. Trying

29:41

to create that element of doubt. It's

29:44

all about it. Yeah, that's their job.

29:46

That is their job. I

29:48

see people take that as gospel. of

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30:51

Let's get this dinner party started. Hey

30:57

everyone, I'm Craig Robinson, co-host of

30:59

the Ways to Win podcast alongside

31:01

my good friend, Jon Calipari. I've

31:04

been on the go recently. Phoenix,

31:06

Kansas City, Chicago. If you're like

31:08

me and have a home but

31:10

aren't always at home, you have

31:12

an Airbnb. Hosting your home or

31:14

a spare room is a very

31:16

practical side hustle. If you live

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in a big game town, you

31:20

can Airbnb your place for fans

31:22

to stay in. Your home might

31:25

be worth more than you think.

31:27

Find out how much

31:29

at airbnb.com/post. What

31:36

do you know of what happened on the night? Because from

31:38

what I can figure out,

31:40

from what you've told me, Angus was at the

31:43

park like two hours. What

31:45

do you know that happened? Well,

31:47

look, he went down to meet this

31:50

group of kids. One of them had

31:52

only been living in Redcliffe six months.

31:55

The other nine months, and

31:57

he'd already been banned from our house because

31:59

you know. you know, mothers

32:01

you're vetting, you know. And the

32:03

other girl I didn't

32:05

really know well, Andes

32:08

knew her from primary and that

32:10

and she was going to a

32:13

different school to him locally. But

32:16

he sort of got drawn into

32:19

this group after little

32:21

heartache and depression and

32:24

he wasn't even with his normal circle

32:26

of friends that night. And

32:28

some of them either weren't going or

32:30

couldn't go. So he's met up with this

32:33

group. Now he was waiting

32:36

at McDonald's and we know this

32:38

only because we,

32:41

like I said, scoured through everything.

32:43

Like for months after we lost

32:45

Andes, we would stay up night

32:47

and day where we were, you

32:49

know, pacing the floor like lunatics

32:51

or laying there crying and, you

32:53

know, we managed to

32:56

find from his phone where

32:58

he walked and that sort of

33:00

thing. So he was

33:02

waiting for them at McDonald's and,

33:05

you know, we seen he sent

33:07

these little Spongebob bands, you know,

33:09

we're fine, I'm really bored sitting

33:11

here. And they messaged

33:13

him and met him up and they

33:16

went to 7-11. And

33:20

then they went

33:22

back over the park. Now

33:24

this is something I'm trying to

33:26

remember but I think

33:28

that group had met before they

33:31

met up with Angus. I think

33:33

they'd met up with those two boys

33:37

and apparently there

33:40

was conversation about getting meet and

33:43

one of the boys had a leg. And anyway,

33:45

they met up with Angus after that and

33:48

then they went back to the park. Now

33:51

what's happened there is, like I said, you know,

33:53

we sat in the court and they lined the

33:55

thing here and we were shown where

33:58

they went from here to here. to there

34:00

and walked back and

34:03

somehow like these

34:05

kids and Angus was with them at

34:07

this stage but not with them. He

34:09

stayed back with the girl and

34:12

these kids like I'm not saying he

34:14

didn't know what was going on. As

34:17

a parent you know I can't

34:20

understand how he didn't

34:22

come home once he knew what was

34:24

going on. That was my first

34:27

thing was like oh my God

34:29

you're in shock, you're in shock, you're

34:31

like how the hell did

34:34

he end up in that situation

34:36

that is totally foreign to

34:39

him. How the

34:41

hell? Apparently when they did

34:43

meet him actually going back when they

34:46

met him over at McDonald's, now

34:48

this is like I said I as a

34:50

parent you know you

34:53

expect your kids to have like an

34:55

older head on their shoulders than they

34:58

do that. Yeah absolutely. And

35:00

now this boy tried to get Angus

35:02

to take a knife at McDonald's

35:06

and you could see him in no way,

35:08

he's like no way but

35:10

these kids given him knuckle dusters

35:12

instead and Angus has put them

35:14

in their pockets I'm guessing assuming

35:16

I don't want to take that weapon

35:19

I'm not alright fine I'll just put

35:21

them in. And like I said

35:23

me as a parent I'm thinking why didn't you

35:26

call us, why didn't you come home, why didn't

35:28

you get up and leave, you knew better than

35:31

this you know you were a smart

35:33

kid. Well he probably I mean obviously

35:35

he assumed, I'm assuming

35:37

that he thought nothing violent was going to

35:39

happen. I mean it's one thing to be

35:41

wandering around Red Cliff with the knuckle duster

35:44

or even wandering around with a guy who's

35:46

got a knife but I don't think, I

35:48

mean as I say I'm a person who

35:50

lived in Red Cliff for years and I

35:52

would not assuming teenagers were wandering around Maccas

35:54

with knives in their pockets. I did not

35:56

think that was happening. No look you

35:58

know here's the thing is. like I

36:00

said with Angus, he was that big,

36:03

dirty, dirty kid that he got

36:05

picked on because he was big and

36:07

tall and smart and he was so

36:09

out of character. But it

36:11

sounds and it reads like when I

36:13

read reports about it as

36:16

though he was literally and I

36:18

can understand how as a parent when you say

36:21

it, you may have felt like other people were

36:23

going, sure love. Yeah,

36:25

absolutely. It definitely reads as though

36:27

this was a kid caught up

36:29

in a fight. Oh, he was

36:31

out of his depth. Yeah. And

36:34

look, like I said, they ended up, they went

36:36

over there, that boy and the other boy were

36:38

near the bathroom and that's

36:41

apparently where it all went

36:43

down. And then

36:46

what's unfolded is, like I said,

36:48

these boys have made it. Angus

36:50

was way back

36:52

somewhere with this girl and

36:54

these boys made this deal

36:57

then all of a sudden knives

37:00

were drawn and these

37:03

two boys that were wanting

37:05

to buy weed were saying

37:08

they had a third person there, a mate

37:10

that they got to bring down money. And

37:14

that group set off after the

37:16

two boys out of Angus' group

37:19

and all the kids ran off

37:21

and stayed with the girl and

37:24

went with her away. They

37:26

actually hid behind a

37:29

bush and I'm watching

37:31

this as a mother in court. And

37:34

you know the end of this

37:37

is your child dies but

37:39

you still see him there. Like

37:41

please don't come out from

37:43

behind there. But he stayed

37:45

with the girl. The two

37:48

offenders pursued these other kids

37:51

with blades out. Now they say

37:54

there's some question of that but

37:56

I'm blind. I've got glasses on.

37:59

And I say that. still can see these

38:01

big blades the main offender

38:04

had and the smaller

38:06

blade the other offender had and

38:08

they're walking towards this boy who's

38:10

got the bag held out telling

38:12

them he'll give them the bag

38:14

if they'll just go away but

38:17

he didn't drop it he just

38:19

I don't know whether what he was

38:22

thinking but he walked backwards he ended

38:24

up somehow ended up

38:26

back up near the

38:29

front footpath along the side of the road

38:31

near the bus stop Angus

38:33

has heard him coming

38:36

and stuck his head out to

38:38

see like what's going on and

38:41

with that he's

38:43

passed Angus a knife and you see

38:45

Angus hold it up to look at

38:47

it and then these boys

38:49

are just metres away and

38:51

he steps forward and tells them

38:54

to excuse my French fuck off

38:57

and then steps back and puts

38:59

that down behind his leg and

39:02

the thing was the only time that ever

39:04

came up again and this is what police

39:06

said they knew Angus never attempted to

39:08

use that blade he didn't want to

39:11

use that blade was when

39:13

he kicked it came across him

39:15

like across the front of his

39:17

chest because you know when you

39:20

can to balance and lift your foot up so

39:23

these boys have just launched

39:25

on Angus it was not a fight

39:27

he asked them to if off go

39:29

away they just were

39:31

on him like just pack animals

39:33

if you've ever seen two wolves

39:36

coming at prey one

39:38

was behind him at the back on

39:40

the side one was in front of

39:43

him and they were just it all

39:45

happened within seconds Angus was gone the

39:48

boy from the front was stabbing he at

39:51

one point nicked Angus on

39:54

the chest I don't know whether it went through

39:56

his clothing but you see Angus step back and

39:58

grab his clothing And

40:00

then Angus has

40:02

thrown a punch. So

40:04

are you saying there's CCTV of this?

40:06

Have you seen video? I've watched my

40:09

son, Dad. My God.

40:11

Dad, I don't know how many

40:13

times I've watched it, but I

40:15

didn't get up and leave because as a

40:19

mother, you never want

40:21

to see that, but as a mother, I

40:23

have to know what happened to my

40:26

child in these last moments. I have

40:28

to know everything, good, bad,

40:30

ugly, brutal, cruel. I have

40:33

to know because it's

40:35

the stuff you don't know that keeps

40:37

you awake at night. You know,

40:39

and this is where I think it's an absolute

40:41

cruelty that victims' families aren't

40:43

giving as much information as they

40:45

get them to sign a legal

40:47

waiver that they can't talk to

40:49

after court, but everything

40:51

they don't know is what eats away

40:54

at them and sees them

40:56

having nightmares and just a trauma.

41:00

But that boy,

41:03

the other boy was behind Angus

41:06

and he knew Angus was distracted and

41:09

he knew Angus was out of his

41:11

depth. You can literally see the fear

41:13

in Angus. And this

41:15

boy has come from the back of the side

41:17

and he's stabbed

41:19

him. He just stabbed that blade

41:22

straight from his back and went

41:24

through Angus' chest. I couldn't

41:26

work out why there was two wounds

41:28

when we got the coroner's report,

41:31

but that was from the blade going

41:33

through. And then in flashes of a

41:35

night, I started

41:37

remembering later on, like cuts

41:40

across my son's hand, where

41:42

he'd obviously tried to grab the blade

41:46

from the other boy to stop

41:48

it, you know, but it

41:50

all happened so quickly, even having watched

41:52

that video so many times. It's

41:55

just over in seconds,

41:57

in seconds, you know. Like

42:00

I said, as Angus fell, this

42:02

boy tried to stab him again as

42:04

he fell, the main offender. And

42:08

then they slapped hands and they skipped

42:10

off. Do you mean as in

42:12

high five? Well they slapped

42:15

hands together like job well done.

42:18

But that lost the first trial because

42:20

the judge in the first trial used

42:22

high five even though he was telling

42:25

the jury to not

42:27

take the high five into account.

42:30

So not see that as a celebratory

42:32

moment after the stabbing? Yeah,

42:35

when they're deliberating to not take

42:37

that into account. That

42:39

was one of the crux that they

42:42

used to win the appeal, the fact

42:44

that he'd even mentioned it. Good

42:47

evening, heartbroken and frustrated. That's how

42:49

the family of slain Redcliffe teenager

42:51

Angus Beaumont is feeling after learning

42:53

the reason why their sons alleged

42:56

killers had their guilty verdicts overturned.

42:58

A year ago two teenage boys

43:00

were found guilty of his murder,

43:02

sentenced to detention terms that would

43:04

have seen them released before their

43:07

21st birthdays. Both appealed their

43:09

convictions and won the court

43:11

of appeal today revealing why.

43:13

The trial judges directions caused

43:15

a miscarriage of justice, agreeing

43:17

the jury should have been given

43:19

clear instructions about an alleged hand

43:21

slap by the teens after Angus

43:23

was stabbed, an issue central to

43:25

the Crown case. So

43:29

they got every sort of

43:31

benefit of the legal

43:33

system thrown their way. You

43:36

know if the boys were holding up court

43:38

and for an hour because they didn't want

43:41

to come in because they didn't want to wear their

43:43

green for detention or they didn't like the cut where

43:45

they were given to eat their breakfast with or didn't

43:47

like the breakfast and they couldn't get

43:49

them in for an hour while we were all sitting there. The

43:52

first judge would actually not

43:55

tell the jury what

43:57

was happening and bring them in. afterwards

44:01

so they wouldn't be

44:04

prejudiced against the boys. And

44:07

then when you hear things like there

44:10

was information that was disallowed for

44:12

the trial, the first trial, because it would

44:14

be too prejudiced against

44:18

the offenders, basically

44:20

the jury would have no other

44:23

way to find them guilty. So

44:25

that evidence is not

44:27

allowed in court. Now how does that

44:29

make sense that some

44:31

condemning evidence because it's too

44:34

condemning, too prejudiced, is

44:36

not allowed to be heard? Again, it

44:38

is difficult, isn't it, to, I'm not

44:40

going to say understand because we're not

44:43

stupid, we understand it. It's difficult to

44:45

accept. We

44:47

have character witnesses again in the sentencing

44:50

phase to give good character

44:52

references but this information

44:55

that would obviously be negative

44:57

character information, it must

45:00

be excluded. It's not a

45:02

workable system. It really isn't a workable

45:04

system. These two boys, now

45:06

the first judge who let them

45:08

out on bail before Angus' murder

45:11

for a series of violent offences,

45:14

now they were already big

45:16

into their little criminal

45:18

career by the age of 13 or 11, 13,

45:20

12, whatever. But

45:24

when they took Angus' life, look they

45:26

were 14. I think

45:28

one was actually turning

45:30

14. Oh okay,

45:33

so 14 was the elder. 13

45:35

and 14. But

45:37

the judge had let them out somewhere

45:41

in between October and

45:44

January they were held in detention

45:46

for other violent offences. They

45:49

were then given bail and they

45:51

then went on to commit more

45:54

offences even before taking Angus' life

45:56

and then in the March they

45:59

took Angus' life. life and

46:01

then you know after being

46:03

held for I think it was was

46:06

it 18 months or less they

46:09

were it bailed again. We actually

46:11

fought really hard to be in

46:13

because I said you know like

46:16

I said we were trying to get any

46:18

information and every bit of information. We actually

46:20

had to apply for

46:22

each process leading

46:25

up to the trial and

46:28

all other things like bail. We

46:30

actually had to put in a

46:32

letter of application to

46:34

the head justice each

46:37

time we wanted to participate in

46:39

these. So we were actually

46:41

there at the main offenders bail and

46:44

we heard his address we

46:47

heard all these other information that

46:49

we didn't realise his criminal past

46:51

that all came out and

46:53

so we were blown away

46:56

by some of the stuff. The

46:58

ABC has reported that the

47:00

main offender had previously approached

47:02

a woman pushing a pram

47:04

in Redcliffe and threatened to kill

47:07

her baby. Actually that boy

47:09

was the other boy. That was the

47:11

other one that wasn't the main offender.

47:13

The one who wasn't the

47:15

main offender he was look

47:17

he's actually much more violent like you were

47:19

saying he howled a knife to a baby

47:22

and threatened to kill it if the mother

47:24

didn't hand over money. He

47:26

also set fire to the youth space

47:29

at one stage all these other

47:31

things and the list just went on. These

47:34

two boys tried to claim self-defence. Yes

47:36

oh yeah yeah and

47:39

that Angus scared them because he was

47:41

so big and tall and fit that

47:43

he scared them and I

47:46

watched that video and there was only

47:48

one person scared and

47:50

that was Angus. He

47:52

was out of his depth. He just

47:54

wanted them to go away. He was trying

47:56

to protect the other two kids behind him.

48:00

The verdict in a retrial of two

48:02

teenage boys accused of murdering red cliff

48:04

teen Angus Beaumont has been described by

48:07

his family as the best of the

48:09

worst set of outcomes. Both teens were

48:11

convicted of murder by a jury in

48:14

June last year and were sentenced to

48:16

nine years and seven years jail respectively.

48:18

In May, they appealed in one and

48:20

faced a retrial earlier this month. The

48:23

younger boy who inflicted the fatal wound

48:25

was again found guilty of murder, the

48:27

other guilty of manslaughter. When

48:31

these boys were both lead on

48:33

out on bail, they came straight

48:35

back here. They both came straight

48:37

back here, one south side but the

48:39

other's got family south

48:41

side and family over this

48:44

side. I was

48:46

actually walking past the main killer's

48:49

family home to get to my

48:51

counsellor after losing Angus. And,

48:54

you know, it just, yeah,

48:56

felt so vulnerable when I

48:58

found out. There's

49:00

not a lot out there when you step into

49:02

there. You're sort of

49:04

thrown in a deep end and you either

49:07

think or you're swam with, you know, you've

49:09

got to try and get your head above

49:11

water and, you know, find resources

49:13

as you're up to it and as you

49:15

can. We do

49:18

have Queensland homicide

49:20

victim support group. I was just going

49:23

to ask you about that. I've not had, I don't

49:25

think I've met anyone from that group,

49:27

but I've certainly had a lot to do with the Victorian

49:29

group and a little to do with the New South

49:31

Wales group and they're brilliant. And look,

49:33

I will tell you, you know, say

49:36

six weeks in, we were in a car

49:39

and they rang and apparently they'd rang

49:41

Ben before me and he didn't want

49:43

to deal with any of that being

49:45

like, I said, men do this differently.

49:48

And I actually said to look, I'm not ready at

49:50

the time, but when I am and

49:52

look, I will tell you like

49:54

the first person I did speak

49:56

to, I'm not first, sorry,

49:59

I'll tell you that. that the liaison

50:01

person we were allotted through

50:03

that she earned her

50:05

money. She was my lifeline

50:07

in that first probably, you know,

50:09

12 months. And

50:12

one of the feelings few I had because of

50:14

COVID. And she

50:16

was brilliant. And,

50:18

you know, we were grateful for

50:20

that. And she did help get

50:23

us information where she could. She

50:25

did help source things for us

50:27

in the way of sending us

50:29

links for, you know, care for

50:31

Kelly for counselling and stuff like

50:33

that to have a look at.

50:35

And again, we couldn't access them

50:37

physically because of COVID. Here's

50:40

where it gets hard. You know,

50:42

Kelly came into his teenage

50:45

years puberty and all that just

50:47

as he lost his brother. We

50:50

access how early on as we

50:52

could by video, you know, by

50:54

Zoom. And we did

50:57

that until he wouldn't. And

50:59

then as soon as COVID lifted a

51:01

bit, we tried to access physical

51:04

counselling. But see, this

51:06

is not the thing with a lot of

51:08

victims. Cancelling isn't the

51:10

golden ticket early on. I think it's

51:13

something people have to work towards in

51:15

their own time. And with

51:17

young people, some of them are open

51:19

to it and some of them

51:21

aren't. And Kelly did try it early

51:23

on, but he had a

51:26

bad experience where one chance were

51:28

brought up. What happened to Angus?

51:31

Straight up early in the bit. And he

51:33

was never going back again. The second time

51:35

we tried to take him, he was dragging

51:37

the kitchen table. He had hold of that.

51:40

He was not going out the door and

51:42

he was never coming again. So

51:44

what we've tried to do with

51:47

him now is keep

51:49

him physically active.

51:51

You know, they say that for

51:53

PTSD. Yeah. Just like really hardcore

51:55

physical. That's what old coppers and

51:57

that do. Yep. Keep physically active

51:59

because to try and

52:01

sit and do anything

52:03

like even if that's your job

52:06

to be you know dealing with

52:08

information you'll crushed after this. You

52:11

just feel like an absolute

52:13

moron because you can't access like the

52:15

simplest task. You just lock down is

52:18

the only way that I can use

52:20

you lock down I do it all

52:22

the time. I've got stuff that I

52:24

should have dealt with it. I

52:27

mean you know even our house is

52:29

just it looks like something out

52:31

of a sad movie.

52:34

Your life stops and what you were doing

52:36

but I did try to get

52:38

physically more active in

52:41

a way Ben just tried to get

52:43

back to being able to work and

52:45

earn an income early on he just

52:47

couldn't and that's what

52:49

people don't understand financially. You would

52:52

go backwards because you

52:54

just got capable. Your

52:56

children like you know

52:59

Kelly it was his first ever

53:01

experience of life, a

53:03

funeral and being

53:05

through COVID that was another thing

53:08

that added to it was we

53:10

were isolated for

53:12

months and months and months. We couldn't have

53:14

a funeral there was you know only 10

53:17

people allowed and that

53:19

was including staff. We

53:21

had a police officer there to

53:23

make sure nobody tried to attend.

53:26

We couldn't even sit with the older kids

53:28

they had to sit across from as one

53:30

of Pew. I was supposed to

53:33

touch or hug and

53:35

so I had

53:37

to just as a mother I had

53:39

to sit with my older daughter because

53:41

like I said the all the males

53:43

and family just couldn't deal with it

53:45

couldn't deal and so me and

53:48

my oldest daughter Angus's only

53:51

sister and big sister had to

53:53

organize a beautiful Angus's

53:55

funeral you

53:57

know and try and compact.

54:01

15 years of a child into

54:04

something to read at his funeral

54:08

and he hadn't even lived. He had

54:10

a chance to live. You

54:13

know, it was brutal. It was brutal

54:15

and it was cruel and I think

54:17

I went into order, piloted on the

54:19

day and the worst

54:22

part for me, there were

54:24

so many but one of the worst parts was

54:27

watching my older kids grieve and I couldn't

54:29

come to them but watching

54:32

my 12-year-old son's heart just

54:34

break, you could physically see

54:36

his heart break and the day of

54:39

the funeral was probably the first

54:41

time Kelly got to see

54:44

his brother, Santeepah, and

54:46

we actually begged him not to because,

54:49

you know,

54:51

myself and my daughter thought we were

54:53

going first just to see how confronting

54:56

it was going to be. We

54:59

came out before and begged

55:01

Kelly not to go in

55:03

and, you know, just

55:06

begged him and he just wanted to and

55:08

he just wanted to see his brother. And

55:11

it was the most cruelest thing. You

55:13

could hear him

55:15

screaming, that's not my brother,

55:18

from, you know, inside the

55:21

accremation funeral home and

55:25

that was just gut wrenching and

55:27

he has not been the same

55:29

person since, you know, for two

55:31

years. Kelly wouldn't see any

55:33

of his friends, he would leave the

55:35

house. He couldn't go

55:37

to school, he tried but he'd sleep for

55:39

a week after going for two days. It

55:41

was grueling and then you had, we

55:44

couldn't even say Angus' name for months

55:47

and months but

55:49

yeah, I couldn't leave unless Ben

55:51

was home or one of

55:54

the older kids could stay with Kelly, I

55:56

mean, Ellie, I'll need Leonie's

55:59

brothers. and his

56:02

brother's clothes and wearing his

56:04

beanie and scowled up

56:06

on his bed and you know

56:09

he just looked like a lifeless doll

56:11

like so probably the first I

56:14

don't even know how long like

56:16

he barricaded the bathroom one time

56:19

and I just found him like you know

56:21

laying in the bottom of the bath just

56:24

like I thought he was gone and he

56:26

just couldn't move or talk. I

56:29

mean it takes life

56:31

away from those living that are left

56:34

behind and like I said he's not

56:36

the same person. He's

56:38

very quick now to perhaps

56:41

you know anxiety, he's just

56:43

got anxiety and things will get

56:45

a rise out of him quickly

56:47

because that anxiety is

56:49

still there so when he

56:51

feels better is when he's working with

56:54

his father and he is he's

56:56

16 and he's working five days

56:58

a week you know laboring out

57:00

with his father and

57:03

that's so sad for me

57:05

because he's missed out

57:07

on school, he's missed out on

57:10

socialising with friends, he's

57:12

gone straight into adult stuff

57:15

and look it's not the worst

57:17

thing it's good that you know we

57:20

have our own business and he can

57:22

do that but it's taking

57:24

those choices away from him and

57:26

us. We've

57:29

just had to go with what works

57:32

and what we're all capable of and

57:35

I think that's what a lot of families find

57:37

is that trajectory of their

57:39

family is just thrown off

57:42

course and you're all

57:44

flying and you're all just trying

57:46

to grab back onto

57:48

terra firma and

57:51

make some sort of semblance of

57:53

a life when your heart's not

57:56

really in it. You're

57:58

trying you know. for that

58:00

other person or just trying to do

58:02

the best you can. It's

58:06

a deep notch

58:08

in someone's life

58:10

and early formative years and

58:13

so they talk about the offenders and what's

58:15

happened to them. Well we have to take

58:18

into account now that we're now

58:21

not out of the woods with our

58:24

youngest and with our grandkids

58:26

on the effect this is going to have

58:29

on their formative years and their

58:31

lives and already with the oldest

58:34

grandchild we've seen that have

58:36

a major effect in

58:39

where his life and we've fought

58:41

hard to bring him back around

58:43

but he adored his uncle, he

58:46

adored him. You

58:49

know and I think he was scared

58:51

too because he thought if somebody can

58:53

take Angus down who was so

58:55

big and fit and you

58:58

know he was how is

59:00

some little small kid going to

59:02

feel? You know he was

59:05

10 at the time. It's the childhood

59:07

version of the anxiety isn't it? There's

59:09

all that the separation anxiety, the fear

59:12

of what's out there in the world,

59:14

the sudden understanding that

59:16

things can happen. That's exactly

59:19

right so they've taken away

59:21

that lovely little buffer we all

59:23

have where it can't

59:25

happen to us and we all blissfully

59:27

live unaware that you know

59:29

this could ever possibly happen to us. Yes

59:31

it happens to people on the news but

59:34

this will never happen to us and

59:37

once that's ripped away you can't go

59:39

back. You know that

59:42

is a real like it's happened

59:45

and it could happen again and I

59:47

you know like I said with the

59:49

oldest grandson he couldn't have done this

59:52

as funeral and when I

59:54

still remember on the day like I said he

59:56

was just devastated and

59:58

as was Kelly. I still

1:00:01

remember coming in and seeing him.

1:00:04

He had his hands up to his face

1:00:06

crying in front of the pitch,

1:00:08

so I just sat down and they give you

1:00:10

at the funeral home. He

1:00:13

took his head off and reached out

1:00:15

and touched Angus's face, the photo of

1:00:18

his face and just broke

1:00:20

down and cried. So there's

1:00:22

this little hand print on

1:00:24

the portrait of Angus's and

1:00:26

it just, yes, like I said, it

1:00:29

took away that

1:00:31

thing that he was

1:00:33

protected and safe. You're right. Again,

1:00:36

you've raised an issue that we don't

1:00:38

hear about because we're not great at

1:00:40

following up with families after

1:00:43

violent death is

1:00:45

the siblings and the results

1:00:48

of the trauma that happens to particularly

1:00:50

younger siblings. And

1:00:52

you're right. I've spoken to parents

1:00:55

who've mentioned it, who've talked about it a

1:00:57

little bit, but yeah,

1:00:59

you're not just dealing with the

1:01:01

trauma of what happened to Angus that night

1:01:03

four years ago. You've got constant

1:01:06

flare-ups, new things all the time going on

1:01:08

with the other members of your family. Yeah,

1:01:11

like I said, it's like there's

1:01:13

the epicenter and then there's a

1:01:15

continual fall and it

1:01:18

just goes on forever. For

1:01:20

as long as you will not have that

1:01:22

person and loved one in your life, that

1:01:24

child in your life, there

1:01:26

will be things coming from that and

1:01:28

effects coming from that. And look, you

1:01:31

worked actively to combat those

1:01:33

things and to see your

1:01:35

family on more solid ground

1:01:39

and feel more emotionally strong. You

1:01:41

don't want them suffering. But

1:01:44

it is the reality that they

1:01:46

do suffer. And these things

1:01:49

are underlying daily. Like I remember

1:01:51

one of my older boys, he had

1:01:53

to go back to work pretty much straight away because

1:01:56

a young family to feed. He

1:02:00

would ring me and say, Mum, I

1:02:02

had to leave a job because the

1:02:05

owner of the house came in and

1:02:08

found me crying on the floor, trying

1:02:10

to work. You know,

1:02:12

I'm broken down. You

1:02:14

know, it's just devastating

1:02:17

and a lot

1:02:19

of their relationships have ended through

1:02:21

this because it's

1:02:24

a big thing to be confronted with

1:02:26

and it's too much for a lot

1:02:29

of people and unless

1:02:31

you're in it, like, I

1:02:33

could never have understood what

1:02:35

someone in this situation needed,

1:02:38

wholeheartedly needed and how

1:02:40

they were affected

1:02:42

if I hadn't gone

1:02:45

through it myself. You know,

1:02:47

you have an idea, you just,

1:02:50

this is just, it's a different kind

1:02:52

of love. It is a different kind and I

1:02:56

use this word and it's so pathetic

1:02:58

but I can't think of another word

1:03:00

to use but the selfishness involved

1:03:02

in homicide. For

1:03:05

somebody to take another person's

1:03:07

life is so overwhelming,

1:03:10

isn't it? That you've

1:03:12

lost Angus because somebody

1:03:15

else murdered him is so

1:03:18

overwhelming. They could

1:03:20

have walked away. They were

1:03:22

under no threat. No one wanted

1:03:24

to hurt them. They just wanted

1:03:26

them to go away. They could

1:03:28

have left and then to sitting

1:03:30

court and like our prosecutor said,

1:03:32

you know, as they're saying, oh,

1:03:34

they feel so bad, you know,

1:03:36

they have so much remorse and

1:03:38

you'll be happy to know they're

1:03:41

getting a great education. You

1:03:43

know, your child can't get an education. And

1:03:45

even more happy to know that one's getting

1:03:48

a degree in some sort

1:03:50

of physical education. That's just what we

1:03:52

want. It's an offender faster and fitter

1:03:55

when he comes out on bail. prosecutor

1:04:00

said, look, remorse is

1:04:02

just a word written on a piece

1:04:04

of paper unless you actually mean it

1:04:06

and it is so true and

1:04:09

there is no remorse

1:04:11

there. They condemned Angus

1:04:14

to lose 70

1:04:16

to 80 years of his

1:04:18

whole life. They erased him

1:04:20

that night. They cut

1:04:23

his life completely short. They had

1:04:25

that choice and they took that

1:04:27

action and they done that. One

1:04:29

of the main offenders actually talked

1:04:31

to friends about how he wanted

1:04:34

to kill someone. He wanted to

1:04:36

stand someone experienced killing someone.

1:04:38

So how much more

1:04:40

premeditated could you get than that?

1:04:46

You know, it is that thing. Even

1:04:48

if I took out emotion away

1:04:50

from the fact that they stole from us,

1:04:53

the rest of our lives with

1:04:56

our son, they

1:04:58

didn't feel remorse. These aren't

1:05:00

two violent boys. They

1:05:03

are not boys. They are men. One

1:05:05

of those turned 18 last

1:05:07

year and they never put him

1:05:09

in to adult detention. They didn't

1:05:12

even fill out the papers which

1:05:14

I was supposed to do. They

1:05:16

had two months to do after

1:05:18

he turned 18. It never happened.

1:05:20

Now, Angus, the main offender, is

1:05:22

now sitting there as an adult

1:05:24

having turned 18 in December and

1:05:26

he what possibly won't be moved over.

1:05:29

They are keeping these violent

1:05:31

adult offenders in a month,

1:05:33

these young people coming into

1:05:36

these detention centres. They are either

1:05:38

beating up on them or they

1:05:40

are influencing them. But these boys,

1:05:44

they did not think

1:05:46

once, what

1:05:48

are we doing here? We are going

1:05:50

to, that's flesh and blood.

1:05:52

That's a living person. That's

1:05:54

somebody who's got

1:05:57

people who love them. I'm

1:06:00

so grateful to you for talking to us because

1:06:02

all of these things we want to talk about, really

1:06:06

importantly I think, is talking

1:06:08

about your experience with the

1:06:11

justice system as it applies to youth

1:06:13

offenders because we have and we

1:06:15

do continue to talk to

1:06:18

people who work with youth

1:06:20

offenders and we do have

1:06:23

a very sympathetic and empathetic

1:06:26

perspective on youth offenders and I have and

1:06:28

I do talk about my

1:06:31

opinion that if we were more

1:06:33

supportive of families we

1:06:35

would end up with less violent offenders and

1:06:37

I do believe that. However, two

1:06:40

things can be true, it's something else

1:06:42

I believe and you're not unfortunately the first

1:06:44

family I've spoken to who have been at

1:06:46

the other end of youth

1:06:48

offenders and I said very recently to

1:06:51

a lady who works in

1:06:53

Queensland actually with youth offenders that while

1:06:56

I am sympathetic of

1:06:59

people who grow up in terrible

1:07:01

situations and I do

1:07:03

understand how it affects people's brain development

1:07:05

and how they can grow

1:07:07

up with no empathy and but

1:07:09

I also said to her but I'm

1:07:11

frightened of them, I'm scared of

1:07:14

them in my community, I'm scared I don't

1:07:16

want them around my children, I

1:07:18

moved my children out of the school that they

1:07:20

were in because I felt it was too violent

1:07:22

and that's why it's so important that you have

1:07:24

joined us and why I really appreciate you

1:07:27

joining us to talk about your story

1:07:29

because your son has been

1:07:32

the victim, I'm sorry I'm getting

1:07:34

emotional and your family has been

1:07:36

and continue to be

1:07:39

the victims of

1:07:41

children and I don't expect

1:07:43

you to have empathy or sympathy for them.

1:07:46

Oh look it's that thing

1:07:48

that yeah I'm not going

1:07:50

to lie when it comes

1:07:52

to the boys that took

1:07:55

Angus's life, I have very

1:07:58

little compassion. I

1:08:01

mean, as a parent,

1:08:03

I'd be lying if I said otherwise.

1:08:07

And I think the public would

1:08:10

like to hear that you're

1:08:13

a fan of enough

1:08:15

character that you would

1:08:18

have an understanding. But

1:08:20

I do have an understanding. But

1:08:23

there has to be a line where you

1:08:25

say, all right, you take a life. You've

1:08:27

crossed that line. I

1:08:30

have no doubt that if

1:08:33

somebody had intercepted

1:08:35

early now child services,

1:08:38

I just think that system itself

1:08:40

needs a complete overhaul.

1:08:44

You've got kids taken away

1:08:46

from mining things for loving

1:08:48

families that are devastated.

1:08:52

And then you've got kids left

1:08:54

in horrific situations that you just

1:08:56

can't even fathom that they would

1:08:59

be left in. But

1:09:01

here's the thing is, not

1:09:03

every child that comes from

1:09:05

those horrific backgrounds that stuff

1:09:07

is through parents with serious

1:09:09

addictions, problems, comes out a

1:09:11

criminal. But it is a good indicator that

1:09:14

they're not going to have a good start.

1:09:16

There's a lot of brilliant kids, a

1:09:18

lot of loving kids, a

1:09:20

lot of kids that have way more

1:09:23

empathy because of what they've been through

1:09:25

because of that situation. And

1:09:27

I feel sorry for this generation. They

1:09:30

can't even have a stage where

1:09:32

they're ratbags in their teens and

1:09:34

they get their silly on and

1:09:37

again, it is a community

1:09:39

failure, a government failure. They say

1:09:41

you can't blame the government but…

1:09:44

Yeah, because it's a funding failure

1:09:46

so you can. Yeah, yeah. Well,

1:09:48

the government sets all these restrictions

1:09:50

and they have the purse strings

1:09:52

of our taxpayers' money and

1:09:54

they have the ability to redirect

1:09:57

where this is going. during

1:10:00

COVID they did. Yeah, that's right. You

1:10:02

can change laws if you really want it. But the

1:10:05

thing is, I'm a

1:10:07

bit cynical about why they are letting

1:10:09

this run because I think Brian Freddie

1:10:11

could have redirected this. And

1:10:13

like you said, we've got to get in early. If

1:10:16

somebody had got in early in these two

1:10:18

offenders' lives, it would have changed. But

1:10:21

that doesn't take away the

1:10:23

part that is their

1:10:26

responsibility that they put

1:10:28

that action to stab someone. Now that's

1:10:30

next level. And look,

1:10:32

it's hard enough to get a sentence too strict.

1:10:36

Their flates get wiped clean at

1:10:38

18. And

1:10:40

as you've seen, we couldn't even

1:10:42

get them put in adult prison.

1:10:45

And look, I'm on record as saying that I think

1:10:47

that's a terrible idea. And I want to be transparent

1:10:49

with you about that because I've spoken to

1:10:51

adults who that happened to. The

1:10:54

adults I've spoken to were placed in

1:10:56

adult prisons as children for offences

1:10:59

like car theft. And

1:11:02

I wasn't talking to people who had

1:11:04

murdered other children. And see, there is

1:11:06

a difference. There is a difference. And

1:11:08

look, I've said all along, if we

1:11:10

can redirect kids early on, then

1:11:13

let's redirect them. Let's spare

1:11:15

lives in any way we

1:11:17

can. And so

1:11:19

I'm not against that. I

1:11:22

think there is an absolutely

1:11:24

ridiculous amount wasted and we

1:11:26

need to condense it back.

1:11:28

And money is being treated the way

1:11:31

that's needed to access

1:11:33

help early on. And I

1:11:35

say, when I say early

1:11:38

on, I'm talking about pre-pregnancy

1:11:40

or during pregnancy. Absolutely

1:11:43

rehabilitation of families, young

1:11:45

adults. We

1:11:47

don't have enough rehabilitation

1:11:50

available. And what

1:11:52

is? Is there long waiting lists

1:11:54

or it's so expensive? It's

1:11:57

not accessible for so many people

1:11:59

that... unit and we leave it

1:12:01

to let ready to beg for help

1:12:03

and sometimes that's too late. You

1:12:06

know the damage is already done. On

1:12:09

an end note if I could say one

1:12:11

thing is let's get on

1:12:13

and let's fill a need and get into

1:12:16

early rehabilitation. Let's

1:12:19

you know before these kids are

1:12:21

born, before they even take their first

1:12:23

breath in the world, let's deal

1:12:26

with the need that's

1:12:28

there now for rehabilitation. I think

1:12:31

if we step on that first

1:12:33

and if we set the laws

1:12:35

up we're going to have to

1:12:38

address the hardcore offenders and

1:12:40

I think if we address them and

1:12:42

that new lot coming through see that

1:12:45

there is a repercussion for your actions

1:12:48

and that it's not a walk in the

1:12:50

park, it will act as a deterrent but

1:12:52

then we can come from the back and

1:12:55

fill that void with ample

1:12:57

help to just redirect

1:12:59

them. We need

1:13:02

to address this like a

1:13:04

disease that's got to be fixed

1:13:06

and remedied and cured. We

1:13:09

need to look at all these kids whether

1:13:12

they're blonde-haired, blue eyes, whether they've

1:13:14

got brown hair and brown skin

1:13:16

and brown eyes, whatever. We need

1:13:18

to look at them as these

1:13:21

are our upcoming youth. Don't

1:13:23

put them into different categories. Address

1:13:27

them as the same if there is a

1:13:29

need, let's fill it if there is help

1:13:31

they need to prosper or

1:13:33

something we can do to get them on

1:13:35

the right track, do it. Youth

1:13:38

work is a serious gig when you

1:13:40

do that. You

1:13:43

can influence these kids, I'm not saying

1:13:45

it's all on you but you're another

1:13:47

piece of that puzzle. You

1:13:50

have a big influence on these kids. We

1:13:53

were finding that not all

1:13:55

youth work is the same

1:13:57

quality like a lot of them. them,

1:14:01

influence them

1:14:03

in a negative way. These kids come

1:14:06

away feeling resentment and that they're owed

1:14:08

something, owed by the public

1:14:11

and then it sort of

1:14:13

came to me. Well if they feel

1:14:15

like that, no wonder there's no empathy

1:14:18

when they kill someone and we've

1:14:20

seen that through everything we've had

1:14:23

to view and watch and live through,

1:14:25

we've seen the lack of empathy and

1:14:27

they should have to work with 12

1:14:30

months with victims' families before

1:14:32

they ever work with young

1:14:35

offenders. So they've got balance

1:14:37

and you know because you

1:14:39

can't know what you have an

1:14:41

experience like you can you know

1:14:44

learn all of that through tuition and

1:14:46

everything else but it's not the same

1:14:48

as actually going into court

1:14:50

and experiencing what victims go through

1:14:52

and what families live through and

1:14:55

seeing the effect these you know it

1:14:57

can't just be all compassion

1:15:00

because if you have all the

1:15:03

compassion for them but you never

1:15:05

actually make them accountable for

1:15:07

what they've done you're not helping them, you're

1:15:09

not helping them and you're not helping the

1:15:11

families and so there's a lot

1:15:13

of things we need to do to change this

1:15:16

and I appreciate people like yourself

1:15:18

you know being out there trying

1:15:20

to shed light on you know

1:15:22

the other side of what

1:15:25

happens after somebody's

1:15:27

life is taken after

1:15:29

an offender you know

1:15:32

takes that step, makes that decision

1:15:34

to take a life

1:15:36

that you know they didn't have

1:15:38

the right to take. He

1:15:40

was special and I

1:15:43

said all the time he would have been

1:15:45

someone amazing and he really

1:15:47

would have and now

1:15:49

we all feel like a

1:15:52

bit like you know the lost tribe

1:15:54

without him. Thank

1:16:01

you to our guest today, Michelle Little.

1:16:06

If you need support after listening to this podcast,

1:16:08

you can call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or

1:16:12

contact 1800RESPECT on 1800 737 732 or 1800respect.org.au.

1:16:21

Australians can contact 13 Yarn on 13 92

1:16:24

76 or 13yarn.org.au. Thank

1:16:32

you for downloading this episode of Australian True

1:16:34

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