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1:00

Lee. This is the

1:03

AutoSport Podcast. And

1:10

as always, our Chief Editor Kevin Turner is here

1:13

to be our guiding light through these top

1:15

10. So Kevin, nice to see you in

1:17

person actually. You were here at Silverstone at

1:19

the museum. Actually, I didn't know they had

1:21

a library here. And we're in

1:23

the middle of it. We're in the reading room, yes. Yeah,

1:25

they've been very helpful. Yeah, it's a great place

1:28

to come actually. So yeah,

1:30

we've changed it up this time. So we've

1:32

come to the museum. And actually some of the cars we'll

1:34

be talking about I think are downstairs, not on display. So

1:36

yeah, because Silverstone Museum isn't

1:38

just about 4-1, it's got some other

1:41

categories represented as well. You can come here and

1:43

enjoy Silverstone Museum. And then it's one of those

1:45

ones where you can use the ticket and come

1:47

back all year. And the kids love it. And

1:49

now my little lad's five,

1:51

I think he's heading into the window of liking motorsport

1:54

and liking to know what daddy does for a living.

1:56

I don't know for a living, but what daddy does

1:58

and he You can

2:00

be getting into cars so maybe starting to

2:02

get in that when you have you bought

2:04

the kid Civic Thoroughly enjoyed. Yeah I did

2:06

I say that the highlights was design your

2:08

own five hundred cc former Three car and

2:10

I've got I've got a ten year old

2:12

daughter. The Sevenoaks on the Sun is more

2:15

insisted. Most I supplied by to join us

2:17

has an ipod I didn't mean to bless.

2:19

Sort of helps Max the young one a

2:21

bit more. Oh and then once you've built

2:23

your car you get to her lap and

2:25

I'm afraid my daughter's car had a will

2:27

fight it First corner cushy Pittsburgh ties said

2:29

I have ever. Smoked will be have a

2:31

clue to anyone caught. Don't put spoke wheels

2:33

on your on your keeper equivalent of our

2:35

of where's where's yeah Max is call was

2:37

quite good him could call collapse on be

2:39

get see the commons simulated that this could

2:41

get that is one of things a list

2:43

of the as he can say that's pre

2:45

war he or a mockup and that's before

2:47

you get to the big way to see

2:49

the he had a conical cars and bikes

2:51

that they've gone by hearsay try and right

2:53

time I have gotten caught. Cool plans coming

2:55

next year but I can talk about most

2:57

yeah but with will be on top of

2:59

that's. The I'd have done not million miles

3:02

away from my Billie in the new Forest

3:04

where on bystander any chance you get to

3:06

go in places and oily bits is always

3:08

a good day. Our and our second guessed

3:10

for this one is our own Matt Key

3:12

taking a break from normally writing about for

3:14

me to want to join us to about

3:17

touring cars, Malibu the podcast thanks very much

3:19

Mazzini Hour a night when the library by

3:21

expect surfers normal I brew beer or shit

3:23

out cussing and will be some shouting either

3:25

like stars I have an ice butthead cyberwar.

3:27

Our is not a great soaring costs the

3:29

ten. Best cause from the illustrious

3:32

history of I guess where we

3:34

probably self talk about Kevin what

3:36

us history is as well as

3:38

history that spanned many areas. regulations.

3:41

Technical aspects of course as many people will

3:43

gravitate towards super soaring as being starting their

3:46

and gravitating outwards. but actually we go back

3:48

a long way in his top ten the

3:50

had not seen fifty I was when it

3:52

started there was says that his first up

3:55

what you'd call saline car race as he

3:57

took place here at Tuesday night. he fifty

3:59

two. and it was

4:01

won by Stellin Moss obviously in a massive Jacky Mark

4:03

7 although they probably don't look so massive now because

4:05

road cars have just got bigger and bigger and bigger

4:07

haven't they? Might be in W which is 25 years

4:09

old I think it's quite a sensible size car when

4:12

you park it next to a modern one it looks

4:14

like a miniature version of a road car.

4:16

Anyway yes so different areas so actually one

4:18

of the one of the criterias that I did try and

4:21

include in this was to spread the joy a

4:23

little bit so there's no point just picking 10

4:25

supertourists you know I wanted to get a little

4:27

bit of a you know that's a separate list

4:29

but yes this is trying

4:31

to sort of taking into account how successful the

4:34

cars were in their era how important they were

4:36

for the BTCC because there have been times where

4:38

the British Touring Car Championship hasn't been as successful

4:40

as it is now and it's relied on maybe

4:42

only one or two you know key cars the

4:45

drama and the spectacle of those cars I think

4:47

Touring Cars is about entertainment as well and and

4:49

yeah as I've

4:52

tried to spread the joy across those sort of six

4:54

decades really so there will be

4:56

a few you know a few missions as we'll probably

4:59

talk about but hopefully this is a fairly

5:01

decent representation. Number

5:03

10 the Vauxhall Astra Coupe 62 BTCC

5:05

wins driven by the likes of Plato

5:08

James Thompson Ivan Muller and the Prio

5:10

as well why do you put this

5:12

one at 10? So I'll

5:14

try and keep my bit brief because I

5:16

know that Mr. Q has lots to say

5:18

about this car so yeah I mean so

5:21

this suffers from being off the back of

5:24

Super Touring so Super Touring got too expensive

5:26

and all manufacturers left and British Touring Cars

5:28

had to reinvent itself with what was called

5:30

the BTCC Touring era I suppose which tends

5:32

to get a bit overlooked but without a doubt

5:34

the car of that era is the Vauxhall Astra

5:37

Coupe the triple eight in Vauxhall and it won

5:39

62 of its 96 races and they did that

5:42

despite at various points running with not quite

5:44

a hundred percent throttle to try and give

5:46

everyone a bit of a bit of a

5:49

chance yeah so it's an

5:51

absolutely dominant car which is why

5:53

it gets into the list why isn't higher

5:55

I guess I mean I personally thought it

5:57

doesn't hit the dramatic exciting box you know

5:59

they were they were cut cut price

6:02

you know trying to make the

6:04

PCC more affordable I don't also

6:06

think they had that much opposition really

6:08

the Peugeot assault was terrible MG

6:10

kind of got there in the end that was

6:12

probably the most serious position that they faced I

6:14

guess you could say they did put on some

6:16

good races because they had some proper drivers in

6:18

there I don't think there was there was

6:21

not a lot for them to beat except each other and

6:23

as I say I don't feel these cars particularly

6:25

spectacular so that's why it I think it had

6:28

to be in this because it's success but it

6:30

wasn't gonna go any higher than me so over

6:32

to Matt to argue lots of points

6:35

against that I actually agree with most things

6:37

you said but I just believe in there

6:39

in the context of this top ten it

6:41

could move one or two places higher first

6:43

of all I kind of something

6:45

the Tony design I think it's a very pretty

6:47

car yes no it's quite pretty shape I'll give

6:49

it that I mean in the

6:51

context of the time it's really actually I

6:53

thought the road cars better looking probably than

6:56

the race car but good looking grid I

6:58

guess I chucked at 406 Kupay by Peninfarina

7:00

another car that looked better as a road

7:02

car yeah quite quite the

7:04

thing is is I've

7:07

just come off the back of covering the

7:09

Formula One season with the Red Bull RB

7:11

19 which could only dream of a written

7:14

record like the Box Laster because this includes

7:16

sprint races it won 26 out of 28

7:19

races this year so 93% ratio nothing compared to the Astra is

7:21

96% but Formula

7:26

One Mercedes and Ferrari have completely dropped the

7:28

ball the RB 19 is brilliant but the

7:30

level of competition has been low but the

7:32

RB 19 is still going to be regarded

7:35

as one of the best cars in history

7:37

and yes everyone dropped their ball you know to

7:39

start a new millennium with these regulations but I

7:42

don't think the Al the Astra should should necessarily

7:44

suffer because of that I mean I could go

7:46

on a tangent I think the whole rules were

7:49

you know unfortunate in the sense that the

7:51

FIA was working with the British touring cars

7:53

to establish cheap hundred grand cars and then

7:55

the FIA the last minute went now what

7:58

do you see for 2000 and leave you

8:00

on your British Isles to weather and

8:02

die. But like you say, I think

8:05

with the throttle restrictions, I've seen loads of numbers

8:07

and drivers probably exaggerate, but at one point in

8:09

qualifying they're said to be as low as 67%,

8:11

except for Matt Neil who was so tall he

8:14

reckoned he could bend the throttle pace at about

8:16

70%. I think

8:18

it's so reluctant, more than being just the best

8:20

of a bad bunch as history thinks. I think

8:23

it was an excellent car and okay, you're

8:26

probably slightly distracted because particularly if you think yeah,

8:28

these seasons you think Muller versus

8:30

Plato rather than Astra versus

8:32

whatever, but for the level of dominance,

8:36

the MG took its time to get

8:38

good as the Lola

8:40

were focusing more on the sports

8:43

car program at the time. But when WSR

8:45

came in, some proper drivers,

8:47

those rival setups were underbaked, but

8:49

I don't think the Astra should

8:51

suffer because of that. And

8:54

like I say, 62 wins from 96 races

8:57

over all is a heck of

8:59

a record. I think that the RB19

9:02

analogy does sort of work in a way because the RB19

9:04

longer term will suffer

9:06

as a result of it. For me, the

9:08

MP4 former clan of 88, if you

9:10

compare it to other great cars, gets reduced because

9:12

other teams didn't have their act together for different

9:14

reasons that we've talked about before. And this kind

9:16

of feels like the equivalent. So that's why it's

9:18

in the top 10, but it isn't high in

9:20

the top 10. But at

9:23

this point, shall we just, can I throw a couple of

9:25

cars at you? Yeah, yeah. I think there are a few

9:28

I'd like to mention as well. So

9:30

I'm going to nominate two, but I'm

9:32

going to immediately guess why you haven't

9:34

put them in and that is the

9:36

TWR Mazda RX7 with two drivers'

9:39

titles. And that's what I'm based on because touring

9:41

cars don't want to get bogged down with it

9:43

with independents and teams and construction championships. So looking

9:45

mainly at driver's titles. The

9:48

Mazda RX7, two titles for Wim Percy,

9:50

and the Team Dynamics Honda Integra Type

9:52

R, which again, 0.05 and 0.06 from

9:55

Matt Neil. I'm guessing you've got

9:57

the same complaint, which is neither are touring cars because

9:59

they're both Q-Pays. and the Integra wasn't sold in the

10:01

UK, so it isn't even in the spirit of the

10:03

British touring cars. I mean, that does count against both

10:05

of them. I have to say that is fair, but

10:07

in a way, they were in the championship, right? So

10:09

they should be considered. I think that does count against

10:11

them a bit. I mean, the RX-7 is a touring

10:13

car. It's ludicrous, isn't it? Yeah. But I

10:15

think they had, in some of the early races, they had

10:17

a Porsche 911, and that

10:19

qualified because it basically had back seats. There's

10:21

no way it was a touring car. Well,

10:23

I mean, even the XJS was really a

10:26

touring car. I mean, it's still a cool

10:28

car, right? But, yeah, I think they were

10:30

quite... They didn't tick either the quite successful

10:32

off-box. Obviously, the RX-7 usually lost overall. The

10:34

reason why the challenge was keep banging the

10:36

calfwinds, which is

10:38

a subject that we'll come back to doing this list

10:41

because it really irritates me, that class system. And,

10:44

yeah, again, the Honda, it was successful, but

10:46

it wasn't so successful like the Astra had

10:48

to be included, but it wasn't

10:50

sort of a significant benchmark moment

10:53

either. So they're kind of both

10:55

on the periphery. So,

10:58

yeah, definitely worth a mention. I mean, I've got a couple

11:00

of other ones to mention as well, but... Well, I was

11:02

going to say the next one that I was going to

11:04

say is, like, number 11, because

11:06

we've probably got about 20, 30 cars to put

11:08

number 11. But the one I kept coming

11:10

back to you was a Mark II Jag. That was the one

11:12

I was going to mention. Denied

11:15

by the idiosyncratic class system at the time, but

11:17

I think in 61, 62, it won every single

11:19

round. So an

11:21

absolute monopoly. Yeah, so,

11:23

I mean... And that definitely is a saloon

11:25

car. Yes. I mean, in a way, you

11:29

see, now you're

11:31

arguing your own car out, because I would put... I've

11:33

got cars further up the hill, so I'm chucking out.

11:35

It's very tempting to put the Mark II in. I

11:37

guess it suffers from a similar thing to the Astra,

11:40

in the sense there was really no opposition

11:43

for a long time. And then when opposition

11:45

did rock up, the Jaguar

11:47

ended immediately. The monopoly was... We

11:49

did a podcast last year, Martin, on the

11:52

Ford Galaxy. When that appeared, it was literally

11:54

overnight the end of Jaguar's. They had not

11:56

won British Tour and Car Race since May

11:58

1963, when Jax is... turned

12:00

up with the Galaxy so it was a very there wasn't much

12:02

of a... and it had some proper drivers in it as well

12:04

you know people like Graham Hill putting

12:06

up a fight you know so

12:09

but yeah the Mark II Jagger is probably the

12:11

one I would... ahead of

12:14

the Honda or the Mazda that I...

12:17

is kind of up there that probably does deserve a

12:19

mention. I don't want to give away too much about

12:21

what's higher up on the list but there are a

12:24

couple of super touring cars that could be in here

12:26

but I didn't want to just fill the list with

12:28

super tours and the kind of point about super touring

12:30

is it was a really competitive era where it changed

12:32

year on year as to who was winning so there

12:35

you know it was great era because of

12:37

that but that means it's hard to pick out a

12:39

particular car or sometimes to put in there. We have

12:41

got a couple in here that we'll get to but

12:43

now that's entirely fair about the... from a personal point

12:46

of view I quite like the Batmobile PMW as well

12:48

as the CSL well that really didn't do much in

12:50

the way of British touring car

12:52

or saloon car races it was more a European touring

12:54

car which is a different podcast entirely. I'm going to

12:56

set myself a challenge of not looking at auto trader

12:58

for many of these cars to see what they're for

13:00

sale that I could put in my driveway

13:02

for a Sunday morning that my wife wouldn't be buying. Yes, A

13:24

Rover SD1 39 wins

13:28

in the BTCC British Saloon Car Championship

13:30

12 for the V8 3.5 and

13:34

27 for the Vitesse

13:36

I remember mum

13:39

letting me to letting me learn to drive

13:41

in the 80s and a Rover Vitesse and the

13:43

gearbox in the road car was like a

13:45

big old pudding bowl and you didn't know idea

13:47

what gear you're going for but they were

13:49

all in there somewhere on the road car that

13:52

was my first impression of this car gearbox is

13:54

like no just this one it was terrible so

13:57

why is this ninth so a

13:59

few... First of all it is the

14:02

car that finally ends the Ford Caprice

14:04

reign in British civilian

14:06

cars which has lasted since the banning of the V8's

14:09

in the 75. It also

14:11

actually was kind of successful across two rules, it

14:13

was group one and then into group A. It

14:16

won every round in 1983, it briefly

14:20

won the championship with Steve Saper

14:22

before he was disqualified for running

14:24

adjustable rockers. Steve has quite a

14:26

lot to say about that, we'll leave that to another time,

14:28

that was a Tom Walkinshaw racing machine.

14:32

It remained competitive all the way up into 1987,

14:35

it was really only completely finished off

14:37

by the arrival of the turbo cars,

14:40

the RS500. It

14:43

also gets in there because it was such a good friendly car to

14:45

drive, it was a big friendly

14:49

giant really, nice talky engine. I

14:52

spoke to Tim Harvey about this car before I did the

14:54

list and he said it was probably the best car to

14:56

have as his first touring car because he was coming across

14:58

on single seaters after a bag accident,

15:00

he had great power, his torque, only the length

15:03

of handling was good, it was good in the

15:05

wear, it was well balanced, it was very progressive

15:07

and in some respects it was actually a better

15:09

package than the RS500 because the RS500 was actually,

15:13

if you look at it, obviously it was sat quite high because of the

15:16

wheel arches and the tyres, it had to sit on the road back so

15:18

it sits quite a lot lower. So yeah

15:20

successful cars, you say 39 wins, it was the

15:22

car to have in the mid 80's really and

15:27

it was well liked by the people that drove it which is

15:29

another factor I probably didn't mention earlier that I should probably say

15:32

that I did take into account and I spoke to

15:34

some people in there so yeah slot in at 9. I

15:38

have a couple of points to make on the

15:40

SD1 and the first one is like a theme

15:42

that will crop up a couple of times in

15:44

this podcast is that it's sort of two cars

15:46

almost masquerading as one because you've got three and

15:48

a half litre V8 and then the VITS and

15:51

obviously the expected wins and that will come up,

15:53

that's a point we'll touch on more later in

15:55

this podcast but also

15:57

I don't Know something about the

15:59

spirit of it. Is that? Successful!

16:01

We as players also have been tossed

16:03

ah say you got I think it's

16:05

frank sit in a foods out which

16:07

he wr say. Leaves. Counter

16:09

Protest in it's a Rocket Colors com is

16:12

not believed. Azusa that Wes the risky modified

16:14

the in a wheel arches to could have

16:16

wider rubber but it weren't for trade. At

16:18

risk of go. More. In board

16:20

and say oh they I think I might say

16:22

is disqualified from a H three title. The.

16:24

Rice when still count for a say

16:26

yeah that's true, the principle of those

16:28

race wins counted in it and having

16:30

a better record them year at I'm

16:32

in a couple successful secrets of this

16:34

inside all of the fictitious god is

16:36

because really helps cholesterol. A bit of

16:38

a bit of a stretch spruce I

16:41

grew pay. I mean that I wrote

16:43

a lot. I was all sorts of.

16:45

I mean there's some fantastic stories, very

16:47

few the mentioned brother Prince moves. ah

16:49

about about the great payment on a

16:51

room. Tried various shades of sight grave

16:53

sites around the rules. Size

16:55

yard and he could count that I

16:57

can stay as works as some of

16:59

the other things them pass been so

17:01

well publicized of any kind, enough to

17:04

tight your yes to to themselves as

17:06

they as they stand really acing can

17:08

Macinnes probably bam and on too soon

17:10

arrive in the context of the time

17:12

they're competing of the now we're not

17:14

officer on scrutiny last thing on our

17:16

spice it up if you have to

17:18

pick one at been on the Ralph's.

17:20

Treat dusty one but it isn't sorta the

17:23

picket pick of the Brady. A sore at

17:25

a dinner through I joined cause of the

17:27

idea pay into a couch and she gets

17:29

the Bastille stayed on the all costs which

17:31

I think data and dealt with various agencies

17:33

and and tricked in things on them but

17:35

some yes I think the i say kind

17:37

of our is why is one as I

17:39

click eight is shaped as they could be

17:41

from any other decade really late seventies is

17:43

the eighties and say I represent sick are

17:46

kind of guess it represents a particular era.

17:48

Sexy between the to pray the our saw

17:50

hundred and I think. one of the

17:52

crisis facing longevity says started. In.

17:54

a winning at the end of eighty one and

17:56

as competitive really i think it's they're winning races

17:58

as light as nineteen eighty seven 8.7

18:00

yeah. Yeah, well over half a decade

18:02

there. There's a B-reg from 85 on

18:05

sale on AutoTrader on 148,000 miles

18:07

for 20 grand. That's a bargain.

18:10

In the sort of up in the air fever

18:12

category starts to look like a Ferrari Daytona, a

18:14

rear wheel drive V8, it's got that going for

18:16

it. Yeah, with the old lights on the front,

18:18

it does look a bit Daytona-esque. Yeah. Why have

18:20

I not been more successful to have spare play

18:22

money to buy things like this? Because what a

18:24

great car to have in your collection that nobody

18:26

else would understand. Right, talking of

18:29

things that you'd understand, people of a certain age

18:31

in the UK, forget

18:33

your Vauxhall Vectors, the name Vauxhall

18:35

Cavalier. This brings a certain something

18:38

to mind. An eighth on the

18:40

list, Kev, you've put Vauxhall

18:42

Cavalier. 19 BTC wins. At a time

18:44

when you could say

18:48

the the foreign invaders were arriving but Vauxhall

18:50

held its own. Yeah, I think this one

18:52

I've written in the piece that went on

18:54

woolsport.com. I could have picked the out from

18:56

AO155 because in

18:58

terms of impact, it came in, ruined

19:01

everything by putting wings on a touring car. We

19:03

should have learned that one already, shouldn't we, from

19:05

single-seaters. But anyway, came in, did

19:08

that one, everything. So it had a big impact.

19:10

But it was very fleeting. By

19:12

95, it was absolutely terrible. And the car

19:14

that won the championship in 95 was the

19:17

Vauxhall Cavalier with wings on. John

19:19

Cleland, I think

19:21

that's one of the sort of great championship

19:23

wins really, him and the Cavalier. But also,

19:26

the Cavalier has a longer history in the

19:28

championship. It was around for when the two-litre

19:30

regulations really started to put up a fight

19:32

against the BMWs. And then Cleland and Vauxhall

19:35

were kind of there or thereabouts most of

19:37

the time. Usually up towards

19:39

the front, should he have won the 1992 title.

19:41

I mean, yeah, you can have a debate about that. It's

19:43

a separate podcast again, isn't it? Because of the Silverstone finale

19:46

and the crash between him and him and SOPA.

19:49

But yeah, so I thought that the Cavalier

19:51

for its longevity, I take Matt's point,

19:53

it's probably one of those cars that how

19:55

similar was the 95 car to the 1990 car. I

19:57

mean, they're different. cars

20:00

really but yeah

20:02

you know you kind of got to go kind of

20:04

going with the I think there is a there is

20:06

a lineage there that you can put

20:08

down to one car so yeah it

20:10

was competitive at the start when it came in

20:12

and it was it won the championship

20:14

in its last year when it was in its peak form

20:17

and actually it was then replaced by the Vectra so

20:19

it was actually one of those few super-touring cars that

20:22

went out on a high it didn't hang around long

20:24

enough like the Alpha to get completely thumped the following

20:26

year so

20:28

yeah I thought yeah

20:30

an important car really in a

20:32

in a very competitive era you know it held its

20:34

own for the sort of you know half a decade

20:37

I'd say this is probably of all the ones

20:39

I want to boot out at the top ten

20:41

to bring something else in or certainly you push

20:44

it back so I could have the Astra

20:46

slightly you can have the Astra ahead of

20:48

the Cavalier yeah absolutely oh my word but

20:50

you've already touched on why so the Astra

20:53

longevity with the with the same

20:55

car but the for me these are two distinct cars

20:57

you think 92 so

20:59

Steve Soper and obviously Silverstein but that was

21:02

the day cook engineering one which I

21:04

think of is wingless and negative

21:07

camber it's so like yes so yeah so

21:09

that's mega and then and then I I

21:11

see the 95 car the RML one

21:13

is completely different for me personally

21:16

so I so they're

21:18

they're separates of under one under

21:20

you know one badge it's like I don't know could

21:23

you could you compare it's going from sticking with

21:26

voxels the Astra Kupay to then the three-door Astra

21:28

hatchback that came back because it's under the same

21:30

same sort of badge

21:32

almost so that's that's what I see

21:35

but I suppose in its favor you

21:37

know Alpha BMW Ford Honda Peugeot

21:39

Renault Toyota Volvo as a level

21:41

of competition during that ultra competitive

21:43

era that is just crazy crazy

21:47

and of that yes the alpha madness

21:50

if you know you can go into your share room and

21:52

buy a 155 just look it looks exactly like the one

21:55

on this racetrack as long as you go out your spallers

21:57

and bolt on a splitter in it and a rear wing

21:59

the cheek of that I'd say

22:01

just just in terms of numbers

22:03

so 19 wins nothing to

22:05

be sniffed up but compared to again the Astra

22:07

62 The longevity I

22:10

know it's got massively competition that's favored by I just

22:12

say it's two two different cars I mean obviously if

22:14

you do separate it out Then it would fall down

22:16

although I think the very fact that the Astra coupe

22:18

could run as it was for four years Underlines

22:21

our uncompetitive the championship was in that period

22:23

you know Yeah, they just

22:25

started to use more throttle is it? Yeah,

22:31

the hotbed of super touring competition

22:34

in my eyes, but I do tell you point is yeah

22:36

the car did yeah change a lot over that time All

22:40

right moving on number seven and it's one

22:42

of my favorites because whenever you see them

22:44

either on I know archive footage or you

22:46

know goodwood or something on track with much

22:48

bigger cars It just always looks so funny

22:50

to see a mini on

22:52

track with a big engine lump being

22:54

Competitive in different parts of a racetrack,

22:56

but that you have put a number

22:58

seven with ten wins the

23:00

mini Can you explain why this is oh,

23:03

this is so I'm gonna make myself. I

23:05

was gonna sound popular even more unpopular Because

23:08

I'm not really a mini fan I think

23:11

a car especially a racing car should be driven by

23:13

the back wheels for a start and I blame the

23:15

mini for me And we all have to drive around

23:17

in front-wheel drive cars or BMWs, but

23:20

no more seriously obviously it was a great design It

23:23

won multiple class starters across a couple

23:25

of decades because it started winning the

23:27

early 60s it launched more careers now

23:29

the touring car It's still winning championships

23:32

in the 70s late 70s I guess one of

23:34

the reasons I've got something against is because it it's

23:36

a little bit of a cliche the whole David and

23:38

Goliath thing You know people that good would love to

23:40

see them in is getting stuck into the big stuff

23:42

But actually the mini never beat the big stuff in

23:44

period all its wins come from the days where they

23:46

used to separate off the classes So

23:49

yes a well-driven mini could yeah, it could harass

23:52

Maybe a media mediocre Lee driven court in or

23:54

something like that But they were never up there

23:56

beating Mustangs and Camaros and things like that that

23:58

just didn't didn't happen. So the whole

24:01

giant killer thing it's sort of been pushed

24:03

a little bit I think sort of rose

24:05

to these spectacles and obviously good with allowing

24:07

certain things perhaps that wouldn't have been allowed

24:09

at the time and obviously letting Andrew Jordan

24:11

and Nick Smith do their thing has given

24:13

people certain impressions of it but yeah as

24:15

I say a competitive car for tea it

24:17

is you know it as I launch more

24:19

careers I think than probably any other any

24:22

other saloon you know its first yeah

24:24

its first championship was

24:26

the 1000cc with

24:28

John Whitmore in 61 and it won its last

24:31

two titles with Richard Longman in 78 and 79 in 1275 GT form so

24:33

I don't find it it's not for me the

24:41

most spectacular touring car although I have to say when you

24:43

see one driven properly thrown into

24:45

corners basically without breaking you know someone like Swifty

24:47

it is it's pretty cool to watch and the

24:49

mini race at Goodwood a few years back the

24:52

old mini race was annoyingly

24:54

a really amazing race as well

24:56

so I kind of it's in it's in

24:58

here almost against myself really because it's not

25:00

my favourite car but I think the impact

25:02

it had on the chance it's the longevity

25:04

it had and actually in the automotive industry

25:07

as a wider thing it kind of had to be in

25:09

there somewhere yeah I thought

25:11

about just being like needlessly esoteric and if

25:13

you want the giant killer having the the

25:16

imp oh what a

25:18

fabulous thing that was yeah Bill

25:20

McGovern but yeah this

25:22

is this is sort of annoyingly like you say prove

25:24

the merits of front-wheel drive launch careers you look at

25:26

the drivers who came through some of the pictures as

25:28

well of like the one tyre fire where they come

25:31

out the corner on full lock and just the the

25:33

inside wheel it's just billowing smoke

25:36

my sort of not objection to it but I

25:38

think another point to raise is the number of cars so

25:40

I've got down five different types of

25:43

mini having won a title so the Austin

25:45

7 mini the Morris Mini keeper Austin Mini

25:47

keeper which you know you can argue differences

25:49

of and then obviously much more or then

25:51

you had the Cooper S which I think

25:53

which you'll come on to with the Civic

25:56

at some point and then the mini 1275 GTE

25:58

so you know you going

26:01

from what was it originally a 970cc engine up to nearly 1.3 liters

26:06

just a breath but I suppose by bringing

26:08

up that point again you just saying

26:11

sort of the brilliance of touring cars almost that

26:14

you can you can expand it and and just

26:16

the sort of cheek of homologation around that time

26:18

and you know if you have that set up

26:20

on the road car market how you can filter

26:23

into the race track and vice versa yeah cool

26:25

cars and did a lot launched a lot of

26:27

series and and just some of the shots if

26:29

you see these like buzzing round flyers around around

26:31

the v8s and stuff cool car yeah and I

26:33

think probably even more than the Cavalier you know

26:36

the 1275 GT it's still a mini you're

26:40

not gonna go oh what's that it's quite obviously

26:42

part of that lineage and I don't feel quite

26:44

so guilty about lumping them all in together and

26:46

when the v8s were coming I think just you

26:48

know for what is British touring

26:50

cars in celebration of you know politely the

26:53

supermarket car park and so when you've got

26:55

Mustangs and Camaros which are slightly unattainable I

26:57

think it's probably important to have these little

27:00

you know cars that you can walk into the showroom by

27:02

yes so one of my one

27:04

of my frustrations with the championship as it

27:07

was prior to 1991 is that you could

27:09

win the championship by

27:11

picking up classrooms although actually Gordon Spice who sadly

27:13

you know died a couple years ago but I

27:15

had the pleasure to be in him on a

27:17

few occasions and actually he was he was probably

27:19

the one that suffered the most from

27:21

that as a driver and he said actually I remember

27:23

when I was racing in the minutes you know we

27:26

were trying to absolutely flat chat just as much as

27:28

if we were up front with the capris so it

27:30

never really bothered me that other people were in the

27:32

championship I thought fair play to them as long as

27:34

I was winning the race and thought actually that's probably

27:36

quite a quite a nice way of looking at it

27:38

really for someone who you know if anyone can be

27:40

cross about it be him so and so yeah so

27:42

I had to have a I guess a class winner

27:45

representative in there as much as I personally would prefer an imp

27:47

in fact my dad had one when I was a kid I

27:50

blew the engine up and actually it was

27:52

my mum so that went down well

27:55

the mini you know is much much more had a much bigger

27:57

impact for a much longer period of time so it had to

27:59

be that E7s

28:02

have put on

28:04

some of the best races in the support package

28:06

and I think they're on it again for you know

28:08

the minis and legends being on support package of

28:10

British Touring Cars I think has been been a revelation

28:12

so absolutely I've got to let it sidetrack there.

28:14

Right okay let's move on to

28:17

number six finishing off the lower half of the

28:19

top ten and coming a little more up

28:22

to date is the Honda

28:24

Civic the next

28:26

generation touring car regulations

28:28

era so this went into number

28:31

six then Kevin. Yeah this is the FK2 now

28:34

I felt like the NGTC era needed to

28:36

be represented I think you could argue is

28:38

it now the most successful rules set in

28:40

British Touring Car history and now we talk

28:42

about super touring in terms of you

28:45

know. It wasn't until they put electric motor in

28:47

it really. Yeah no I think you know but

28:49

yeah I think we have to say the NGTC

28:52

rules have worked now obviously part of the reason

28:54

they've worked is because there's a lot of effectively

28:56

you know spec parts you know you bolt you're

28:58

you're bolting the car too so there's actually how

29:01

much of it really is a Honda Civic you know we're into

29:03

that. We're into almost silhouette racing aren't we

29:05

but I've just sort of didn't want to exclude the

29:07

whole thing and I think you have to say although

29:10

we've had two successful BMWs with the

29:12

125 IM Sport and the 330 IM Sport and of

29:14

course the Subaru

29:17

for a while as well I think

29:19

the Civic has been you know the

29:21

most consistently successful was the most consistently

29:23

successful you know 66 wins in a

29:26

pretty competitive era you know championship wins

29:29

I think 56 of those 66 were you

29:31

know Gordon Chen Andrew Jordan Matt Neil you

29:33

know one as a works dynamics built car

29:35

and obviously with Eurotech it carried on it

29:38

was still reasonably competitive in 2020 when Jake

29:40

Hill was I mean it was really long

29:42

in the tooth by then I think he

29:44

got a couple of coins didn't quite get

29:46

a win so I thought

29:49

NGTC needs to be represented and I think

29:51

that this probably is the best one you

29:53

know I covered the championship for some of

29:55

this period and there

29:57

were times where they were pretty restricted on boosters Well,

30:00

the car had great aero, basically, they built an

30:02

aero car as much as they could. That's why

30:04

it was always unbelievable at Thruxton. Some

30:07

of the laps of Andrew Jordan and Shedden around

30:09

Thruxton were something to watch. So

30:12

yeah, that was what I went for as

30:14

the NGTC champion, if you like. Yeah,

30:17

a mega car. This is

30:20

one, so I talk about the Astra earlier, but this

30:22

is one when I was properly following motorsport as opposed

30:24

to just tuning in and watching cars going around circles.

30:27

This is the car that was doing it for me.

30:29

One of the best moments in championship as well. Alton

30:31

Park, Final Corner, Matt Neal and Gordon Shedden in this

30:33

car. Well, that was the previous era. That

30:35

was the previous, the 2011. Oh, that

30:37

was. It was with that engine. They did have

30:40

that turbo engine that went in the NGTC. Well,

30:42

if we do, we're considering what other top tens

30:44

to do in that NGTC series, we could do

30:46

like shocking moments or controversies and

30:48

Shedden taking Matt

30:50

off. I mean, and I was

30:53

covering that event and I

30:55

went to speak to them afterwards and Gordon was absolutely,

30:59

beside himself, I felt sorry for him. It was an

31:02

unbelievable moment between two teammates that weren't just

31:04

teammates. They were actually friends as well. You

31:06

know, it wasn't like there was a bit

31:09

of rivalry going on. It was just one

31:11

of those just unbelievable moments that Brock's back

31:13

Gordon has played over his head enough times,

31:15

but yeah. So that was the year before,

31:17

but they continued that combination with that engine.

31:20

And it was probably the, it wasn't the best

31:22

NGTC car for quite a while. You might even

31:24

argue that it only really lost out to the

31:26

BMW because of the front wheel drive, really would

31:29

have argument that always comes up in, in touring

31:31

costs, thanks to the goddamn mini. Few

31:34

achievements. So five drivers title, so Matt Neal

31:36

and 11, Gordon Schoen 12, Andrew

31:38

Jordan 13, Shedden again, 15 and 16.

31:41

Plus, and I know I said, I wouldn't talk about them at

31:43

the start of the podcast, but two independents. So the,

31:46

if you, you know, obviously, Andrew

31:48

Jordan won the outright championship in 2013, so

31:51

independent champion then as well, but he also won it in 2012. And

31:53

then Rory Butcher with a brilliant season in 2019. And

31:57

that was, that was when the. the

32:00

successor, enormous car compared to the FKT was

32:03

being introduced and that was a proper knife-red

32:05

ratio. I remember speaking to Camusches there trying

32:07

to get that car settled. Meanwhile he got

32:09

Josh Kirk and Rory Butcher in the old

32:11

shape doing wonders. It's a beautiful package and

32:13

like you say this was an era of

32:17

massive standardisation subframes and whatever but

32:20

does that actually work maybe to

32:22

the FKT's credit that it found

32:24

that extra edge? Actually a little

32:26

bit like modern as

32:46

a touring and a type R. I've included all those

32:48

wins from 2012. The Volvo, the 94

32:53

Volvo, is the famous estate but didn't actually win

32:55

a race. In fact one of the best races

32:57

I've seen was Gordon Shedden at

32:59

the very last race I think it was of

33:01

the estate year which I think was 2014. In the

33:03

wet and it absolutely blitzed the field. It was

33:06

an incredible

33:09

drive and that car was a

33:11

race winner. Without giving too much away for the

33:13

rest of the list this is the most modern

33:15

car on it. Why do

33:17

we think that is? Because you know some

33:19

super competitive seasons after but is it do

33:22

you reckon now because of turbo

33:24

boost, ballast, various restrictions,

33:26

the jump ship it just makes it harder

33:28

for a car to be successful for longer?

33:31

Yeah I think it probably is. You mentioned

33:33

I was thinking what would you stick in

33:35

maybe for being sort

33:37

of punching above its weight you got either the

33:39

Speedworks, Toyota, Vences with Tom Ingram but then the

33:41

main contenders probably either the 125 or the

33:45

330i. Yeah I think the 3 series BMW

33:47

probably has a bit of a

33:49

claim but that's been stuck at that point. And that's a proper

33:51

door and car. Three blocks to lead. Yeah exactly. In fact we're

33:53

looking at a massive painting of one that's next to us which

33:55

is rather nice. But the mistake they

33:58

made was that they were going to be a bit of a big deal. that T

34:04

had restrictions that they've never been taken off because

34:07

WSR do a good job and they've got good

34:09

drivers, they're competitive but they're kind

34:11

of hamstrung so they're not the successors perhaps the

34:13

car could or should have been. And obviously this

34:15

year we've got the Ford Focus has finally

34:18

come good and Ash Sutton really blew everyone away

34:20

this year. Well it wasn't just him, it was

34:22

Dan Roebottom and Dan Kammes as well but Sutton

34:24

obviously got the 12 wins in the championship. But

34:27

that's one year, I'd say that for most of

34:29

its life the Focus has been an underachiever and

34:32

they've nailed it this year. Obviously we'll see what happens

34:34

next, you know, what happens in

34:36

2024 and 2025. So,

34:39

but I couldn't make the list on that basis.

34:43

Right, into the top five, we'll take a quick break and

34:45

when we return there may

34:47

be some more arguing or not, no recording

34:49

so far. Stick around. Right

34:51

welcome back to the podcast, into

34:53

the top five of the finest

34:55

British touring cars in this top

34:57

ten list. And let's get into

35:00

some heavy metal, only Chevy Camaro

35:02

and some big lumps up front, didn't

35:04

always stop so well but who cares

35:06

when you can go that quickly. This

35:09

is at five. Yeah, with 53 wins

35:11

for the Chevrolet Camaro, this is one of

35:14

those cars that when I first did the list it was

35:16

kind of on the periphery maybe back into the top ten

35:18

and then the more I looked at it and the more

35:20

I read about it I thought actually this probably needs to

35:22

kind of edge up the list. For a start it's got

35:24

the wins, I mean 53 wins is

35:27

right up there with the top cars that

35:30

we've talked about. It was usually denied the

35:32

championship because of the class rules I've already

35:34

mentioned although Frank Garner did manage to smash

35:37

everyone enough in 1973 to actually win it

35:39

outright. But also then I was fortunate enough

35:41

to have a chat with Stuart Graham about

35:43

it who was one of the leading Camaro exponents

35:45

really in the mid 70s. And

35:48

really it's probably not remembered as well as it

35:51

should be because he said actually by then the

35:53

car was really good, it was good to drive,

35:55

it was actually a good handling car. You know

35:57

obviously again the Goodwood thing with the minis buzzing

35:59

around them makes them look worse and things but

36:02

actually I was never overtaken by a Mini in

36:04

a corner. Yeah we were gone, we

36:06

were quick enough through the corners and obviously

36:08

ballistically fast down the straights. Yeah

36:11

they did wear out the brakes and

36:13

yen because there's a lot of cars

36:15

to stop going very

36:17

quickly but in

36:19

a way it ticks the box. You know in

36:21

previous lists we talked about if you force a

36:23

rule change because your car's so successful that's probably

36:25

you've probably done a good job and

36:27

in yen they were just saying we've got to get rid of these

36:29

because as Matt pointed out how many

36:32

Camaros were there running around on the roads of

36:34

Britain in 1975. Not very

36:36

many I would think but they were the car to have

36:38

if you wanted to win British loon car races and

36:40

eventually I think the organiser just went yeah

36:43

we need to have 450 plus brake

36:45

horsepower as a GT car almost isn't

36:47

it I mean the Camaros appeared as a GT

36:49

car and the Trans Am car in

36:51

other championships so it's one of those

36:54

that straddles different categories so they got

36:56

rid of the N75 it was kind

36:58

of undefeated really at that point and

37:00

yeah Graham finished by saying to me you

37:02

know he thought the car was underestimated in

37:04

period and by the time it was banned

37:06

nothing could touch it. Fair enough? Yeah

37:10

absolutely very very little to add you

37:12

know the fact that it did change

37:14

the regulation so that in 1976 you

37:17

had the three-litre engine limit bought in

37:19

denied by the class system you know

37:23

was was better than better than

37:25

the Mustang although that's the sort of iconic to

37:27

use a horrible word that's the iconic car that

37:29

most people sort of latch onto from when you

37:32

know they're crossing the pond I think the Camaro

37:34

is better and it's nice to see you

37:37

know you want that big American V8 era represented

37:39

as well so they're very little to add on

37:41

the Camaro cool car and it's still great to

37:43

watch in historical. Yeah absolutely you're right actually we

37:46

should mention the Galaxy and the Mustang. Yeah well

37:48

I think that problem is when they

37:50

were at like the height of success they were overlapping

37:52

too much I think that sort of detracts from.

37:54

Yeah the Galaxy's kind of got the the

37:56

benchmark score because it's the one that finished

37:58

the Jaggers often snarled. the V8 era

38:02

but didn't really win that much you know quite soon

38:04

it got overtaken and then

38:06

the Mustang took over from that but I think

38:08

the Camaro is the one that a bangs in

38:10

the big numbers and B is ultimately the car

38:13

that forced the rule change so

38:15

that's why I get to see that five. Let's

38:18

move on and at number four for

38:20

many people a legendary look

38:22

a legendary stripe down the side the

38:24

Ford Lotus Cortina seven wins fourth on

38:27

your list Kev yeah this is one

38:29

was difficult place because it is it's

38:31

arguably well certainly fans of

38:33

a particular age it is the iconic car

38:36

isn't it you know the white with the green stripe

38:39

I mean people say Jim Clark three-wheeling but he wasn't the

38:41

only one you know sort of

38:43

waving a front wheel in the air which they don't

38:45

do now because people know how to set them up

38:47

properly and it

38:49

was you know kind of got that

38:51

giant killer status if you look at

38:54

a historic racing grid now the Cortina

38:56

is the car to have in that

38:58

for that period with that engine capacity

39:00

yeah so it scores highly it's kind

39:02

of almost I'd say it's one

39:04

of the first homologation specials you could say

39:08

you know let's say the jam mark two is the

39:10

first sort of super saloon you could say the Cortina is

39:12

maybe the first yeah homologation

39:14

special we know they're kind of both at

39:17

the start or something and I see the mark two is

39:19

the start point for let's say an M5 and maybe

39:22

the Cortina is the start point for what we

39:24

get with an M3 roughly that kind of thing

39:27

obviously there's the Jim Clark factor I would have

39:29

to point out though that of the seven wins

39:31

all of them were Clark no no one else

39:33

won an outright British Choncar race with a Cortina

39:36

which I think says something about the guy behind

39:38

the wheel you know Clark's obviously

39:40

one of the greatest riders of all time so he

39:42

probably you know he flattered

39:44

the Cortina as such but yeah he

39:47

is a factor in the reason that

39:49

it was successful won the championship course

39:51

in 1964 so you know Jake

39:54

here when we did the the trap test Martin

39:56

we did the start of 2023 when we look in

39:58

the galaxy one of the car we had there. Here

40:01

in fact Silverstone was a Cortina because that arrived

40:03

in 63 as well and had the Galaxy not

40:05

got there first the Cortina would have ended the

40:08

Jaguar reign I think and he said it just

40:10

feels more like a modern car. It's

40:12

just it's all about momentum, it

40:14

stops properly, it turns properly, it's

40:16

almost the first modern touring car

40:19

so that's why it's so heartless despite the fact

40:21

it's actually only got seven wins. I

40:24

don't know if I got that in common Matt, have

40:26

I got that in the right place? I think so

40:28

yeah maybe it's a bit heartless but

40:30

you know there is a reason why 99% of all

40:33

two-door cooking Ford Cortinas have

40:35

got green stripes and Lotus badges on because

40:38

of this car. Three drivers tied well sort

40:40

of two and a half because Sia's used

40:42

it for partway through 63 and then Jim

40:44

Clark 64. Frank Gardner still won the title

40:47

I think in 68 with it and

40:50

Clark won, it has to be on every

40:52

occasion 64 and it's that

40:54

longevity again it was it was the

40:56

car to have really until 1968 when

40:59

the Escort came along and that's the thing isn't it

41:01

it's not like other cars on this list where they

41:04

get superseded by another manufacturer the only thing that could

41:06

beat it was basically an updated

41:08

version of itself with everything Ford had

41:10

learned it was the template Omega car

41:12

like you say probably you know the

41:14

win record isn't isn't outstanding

41:17

and the fact it was probably only Clark doing

41:19

it counts against it but it

41:22

is you know I think for people of

41:24

a certain era that is the British Touring

41:26

car although it's interesting to hear Jake Hill's

41:28

comments because I remember when we did that

41:30

amazing British Touring car celebration cover shoot a

41:32

few years ago the Cortina on that day

41:35

was the most non-good

41:37

with hot rod special and I remember our

41:39

driver he who will not be named so

41:42

I remember you saying that almost

41:45

was like a museum piece but that's how they

41:47

were in the day as opposed to you know

41:50

trick yeah there's an element of

41:52

that when you're doing these track testicles because the

41:54

car as you say the car that was driven

41:56

in 2018 was basically a museum piece so it's

41:58

the one that Jake Hill drove

42:00

at the start of 2023, was the

42:03

old Jordan Racing team, new build. So,

42:05

you know, we've absolutely top-notch. So, but

42:07

I think if you do look at

42:09

reports from the day, it's

42:14

all relative, right? So, yes, they are

42:17

stiffer and faster now, but they were

42:19

still the best handling car. Right. That's

42:21

why much, almost

42:23

the historic racing's costs

42:26

really, that they've all converged around quarantine. It's

42:28

a point where, could we went, thought it,

42:30

we'll have a Cortina race instead. Yeah,

42:32

we would like to see a bit

42:35

more of a mix. What that shell

42:37

had. OK, yes, welding, you know, hard

42:39

points in and modern technologies, modern oils,

42:41

trick engines have is why the Cortina

42:43

is mega. But fundamentally, there's only so

42:45

much you can, you have

42:47

to start somewhere with a touring car. And

42:49

that obviously the Cortina shell is

42:53

a blueprint. It was a place to start, had

42:55

the most in it to develop it way beyond

42:57

that ever was in period, which I know is

42:59

not we're getting separate. This is not a touring

43:01

car list. But obviously, for the technology they had

43:04

in in the mid 60s, it

43:06

was a hell of a production, a hell of

43:08

a look at creation. Sorry. Yeah. One

43:10

little nice snippet I came across in

43:12

Jim Clark's autobiography was

43:15

when he because he did a lot of the development work on

43:17

which I think he quite enjoyed as kind of a nice break

43:19

from the F1 stuff. He realized, I think it

43:21

was a snetterer that used to have the corners marked

43:23

with sort of half a tire. And

43:26

he realized one of the corners he was getting

43:28

the wheel was the inside wheel was lifting so

43:30

far off the ground. He's like,

43:32

I can cut the track.

43:36

So he chucked. He did. He chucked it in

43:38

and got enough air over the top of the

43:40

front right. I think it was he was able

43:42

to effectively go over the top of this tire.

43:44

So, you know, who says track limits is a modern problem.

43:47

Yeah. That's me.

43:49

Dad had a dad used to race a Mark

43:51

2. Lotus Cortina. I've probably

43:53

written off or something no longer a road

43:55

car. And I remember getting ready

43:57

for weekends and putting black tape over the

43:59

headline. and why he didn't put it

44:02

in a garage and give it to me 40 years later

44:04

I'll never know. If only he could have had that four

44:06

sights, that would have been my pension. But

44:08

there we go. Not much of a pension. My

44:12

dad has a few cars like that. I wish

44:14

we'd hung onto it. It wasn't special at the

44:16

time, you know. Just stick

44:18

a green stripe down the side and pretend I'm quicker

44:20

than I am. I bet you

44:22

there's more Lotus Cortinas on the road now than

44:25

there were actually built. Yeah, there are like 500

44:27

surviving with a 250 built, that kind of thing.

44:31

Alright, let's move on to some big budget

44:33

stuff for number three and the Nissan Primera.

44:37

25 wins into our podium now. Top three.

44:40

Yeah, so this was one kind of, do you pick

44:42

the full Mondale or do you pick the Nissan Primera

44:44

from the super touring era? And in

44:46

the end, the Mondale lost out partly

44:49

because he spent quite a lot of his time

44:51

in super touring being quite rubbish. And

44:53

it was really only that last year with

44:56

ProDrive when they had, they just threw everything

44:58

at it. What, 12 million quid, Alan

45:00

Menuh, Ricard Rydell, Anthony Reed.

45:03

And some of your manufacturers have gone,

45:05

including Nissan. So I think

45:07

that you could say that Nissan was the car

45:09

to have at the peak. Should

45:12

have won the championship in 1998, maybe. Did

45:15

win the championship with Lauren Iolo in 1999

45:17

and they crushed the opposition, a top level

45:19

opposition. And if you

45:21

take it as a whole, I'll take it again. We're back to the

45:23

Q's point about the, you know, how

45:26

similar were the cars from the beginning to the end of

45:28

that period. But if you include them all,

45:30

it's 25 wins, which during such a competitive period is

45:33

right on up there. And

45:36

I should mention the Renault Laguna at this point

45:38

because it did take more wins. But

45:41

it wasn't the ultimate super tourer, I

45:44

don't think. I think it's an argument

45:46

between the Nissan and the Ford and it goes to

45:48

the Nissan because I think it won when it was

45:51

more competitive. Anthony Reed

45:53

who drove both thinks that the Nissan

45:55

was better. He

45:58

might say that because he helped a bit. so he kind

46:01

of considers it

46:03

his car I think which he then

46:05

you know he effectively handed over to

46:07

my life at 99. So yeah

46:09

I think well liked by its drivers

46:11

again Jake Hill races one and thinks

46:13

it's the bees knees and

46:16

yeah so it pips the Laguna and

46:18

the the Mondale for the top super

46:20

touring position on this list but

46:22

that's kind of the point about super touring isn't it

46:24

there were several cars that starred over the years so

46:26

picking picking one was quite tricky maybe I should do

46:28

a top ten super tourers list yeah

46:31

I'd say I probably agree with this getting a nod

46:33

out all them I thought you know do I try

46:35

and be played devil's advocate and argue for like the

46:37

Accord or or or even

46:39

even a Vectra was was okay on

46:41

its day oh now you're into the

46:43

flops aren't he I mean the

46:46

Accord I think there's a

46:48

if we were I'm just a claim Jimmy Thompson

46:50

fan oh yeah no Tom Tom I was actually

46:52

fantastic but the you know we could do it

46:54

actually maybe this is a motorsport you know most

46:56

general most one the top ten cars that didn't

46:58

win a championship yeah and the Honda Accord

47:01

in super touring there was days when he's

47:03

absolutely awesome I never quite it

47:05

never quite came together across the full season so

47:07

yeah that couldn't I mean that was a cool

47:09

car but yeah I couldn't get on the list

47:11

yeah I'm starting with you here fever RML built

47:14

it's a proper team was it

47:17

it was one to 99

47:19

with Lauren Iello David Leslie

47:21

really is probably best best

47:23

season his entire career 98

47:25

then independence title is perhaps we should

47:27

talk about that obviously the very famous Donington

47:29

99 win outright for Matt

47:32

Neil for you know that launch team dynamics

47:34

really from sort of being a BMW e30

47:36

sort of politely also ran to win and

47:38

what was it quarter of a million quid

47:42

yeah mega competition and like you said the Prodrive

47:45

Monday some bonkers stuff about that I remember doing

47:47

a feature in you know they they flew in

47:49

wheel nuts from the USA because

47:51

that was a time when pit stops were were

47:54

were you know influential and racist so they thought they

47:56

could save time there but I think yeah

47:58

the monday oh that you have to caveat that

48:00

the super touring exodus had begun by then

48:02

so that the level of competition was much

48:05

reduced. Yeah and the Full Mondale to me,

48:08

that whole project, wonderful though, Keis and it

48:10

sounded awesome as well. That 2000 Full Mondale

48:12

is almost the reason that Super Touring. Yeah.

48:15

It sums up all the reasons why it

48:17

was both brilliant and doomed. It was absolutely

48:19

ridiculous the things that were being thrown at

48:22

Super Touring Cast by the end of the

48:24

90s really. So

48:26

yeah, now the Ford's definitely deserving of

48:28

an honourable mention. I

48:31

think this is almost like the FK2 though, isn't it?

48:34

Where you've got to have an NGTC car represented on

48:36

the list so you pick the best. But I

48:38

care we've had the Cavalier earlier but there's no reason you

48:41

can, I know, yeah, chuck in

48:43

the Laguna or make a case

48:45

for the Volvo S40 or anything like

48:47

that. But I think, you know, yeah,

48:49

this is, how can

48:51

I articulate this well? This is like the flying

48:54

the flag for the Super Tourists but you could probably

48:56

make a case that one of them, two of them

48:58

feature lower down but then it becomes a bit too

49:00

weighted. Exactly, that's kind of how I feel. And to

49:03

make the point about Matt

49:05

Nilswin, for a privateer to win in

49:07

that era, you know, it

49:09

shows you how good that car was. Which I don't mean

49:11

as a disrespect to the team or the driver but to

49:13

win as a factory car and as

49:16

a privateer, you know, there aren't

49:18

many other cars that can do that in such

49:20

a competitive era. And to get a quarter

49:22

of a million quid out of Alan Coward deserves a place for that,

49:24

doesn't it? And still so much love

49:27

for the Super Touring era. I was

49:29

amazed at Super Touring Power,

49:31

a brand hatch. I was there for only

49:33

the first day last

49:36

year and it

49:38

returns this year on the 29th

49:40

and 30th of June. So we'll see

49:42

you there. We were there last year

49:44

on stage and the drivers were swamped

49:46

and people were bringing merch

49:48

back in the day. One guy

49:51

bought, I think, an Alan menu.

49:53

Overalls, a race suit that he had, Alan,

49:56

sign and just the level of passion

49:58

that fans, if you thought This was

50:00

a niche thing this this love of super

50:02

touring is real and it's out there

50:05

So book your tickets to brands and we will see

50:07

you there Okay, let's talk about

50:09

cars that you did see on the road

50:11

plenty of them around at the time in

50:13

various guises There were some quick

50:16

ones and slow ones as well number two

50:18

the Ford Capri 61 wins second

50:21

on your list Yeah,

50:24

so I mean it is it defines an

50:26

era I would

50:28

say you know from the end once the once the

50:30

Camaro had gone or big rates had gone Yeah,

50:32

the Capri in both mark two and mark three

50:35

forms was the pace setter until the art the

50:37

SD one You know every SD one kind of

50:39

finally really by grunt as much as anything else

50:41

He was he threw an half liter VA against

50:44

against the v6 You

50:46

know it so that's a long period at the top, but

50:49

some great racing as well great drivers You

50:51

know it's competitive at the front and actually

50:54

that what does it in terms of the

50:56

championship because again Gordon Spice was the king of

50:58

the Capri I think everyone would would accept that Andy

51:00

Rouser and in pretty close once you got once he

51:02

got in there as well and involved And after the

51:04

trite Donna Mike program But

51:07

yes, the spice was the person that took

51:09

the most wins took the class titles But

51:11

always lost out to somebody else dominating a

51:14

lower class, but I don't think that should be held

51:16

against the Capri I think that's you know it just

51:18

shows how it was the car to have at the

51:20

front very rarely did anyone else get a looking And

51:23

also yeah again You know when when

51:25

I spoke to Gordon about this you know said that it was

51:27

really good because it just got a little bit Better every

51:30

year for them all I gave to the right bits He

51:33

also called it idiot proof Yeah, because

51:35

you could kind of drive it and actually

51:38

Rob Huff I spoke to Rob Huff

51:40

about driving the Camino. He just loves it. It's such a

51:42

balanced It's one of those

51:44

cars. It's got enough power without being embarrassed

51:46

by the power You can drive

51:48

it sideways if you want you can hurt her

51:50

in it Yeah, Jerry Marshall style you get out

51:53

to you know 45 degrees and look spectacular the

51:55

rest of it Or you can drive a neat

51:57

and tidy spice to the view that actually it

51:59

was quick if you drove Neaton given

52:01

his record in it I'll take his I'll take

52:03

his word for that but basically you could you

52:05

you know it was kind of a it was

52:07

an iconic car it was a popular car it

52:09

basically defined the championship for an era 61 wins

52:14

uh yeah it was accessible it looked cool you

52:16

know it it kind of ticks a lot

52:18

of the a lot of the boxes for me and

52:21

it was a car you could see on the road

52:23

in a way that perhaps something like the Camaro you

52:25

wouldn't yeah I don't have an awful lot

52:27

to add to that Kev you know for

52:30

an entire rules era really the group one it was

52:32

the car to have and almost at this

52:34

point we could cut the podcast and do you remember we

52:36

spoke to Gordon Spice at the Classic in sort of 2017

52:38

I think you could just

52:40

insert him sort of waxing lyrical about this car what

52:42

a what a bloke uh but

52:44

yeah some of the names Spice, Wilkinshaw Andy

52:47

Rouse associated with it and it set the pace I think

52:49

from 75 to 82 so what's that is that oh

52:53

god really mad but like eight seasons

52:55

if you include both ends and you

52:57

know sort of up there with

52:59

the Rover SV1 in terms of ticking that longevity

53:02

box but yeah awesome awesome

53:04

car and and on that whole idiot proof thing

53:06

I wonder if that's again if

53:08

you look at sort of modern day historic racing

53:10

as it were although it's you know they

53:13

cancel each other out isn't it if you say modern day historic racing

53:15

but anyway that's why every now and again you'll get like the 535i

53:19

pop-up or the Camaro's win but so much

53:21

of that Jerry Marshall trophy grid is is

53:24

Capri's and I do wonder if that's because of the you

53:26

know the accessibility the use of

53:29

use because obviously the owners have to

53:31

race them fever liveries as well demon

53:33

tweaks fruit uh Faberge G-Tally

53:35

Express yeah all of I

53:38

think delivery not the not the not

53:40

the publication but anyway yeah mega mega

53:42

car talking to great liveries Lebats

53:45

Caliber Texaco oh

53:47

that's a good intro Martin hey good segue

53:50

uh and a car that wasn't

53:52

perfect but you think deserves its

53:54

role its place rather

53:57

as number one on your list this

53:59

is the RS 500.

54:02

It is. So just in case people have been paying attention

54:04

to 2020, hang on a minute, you said the BMW

54:06

M3 was the fastest-growing car. I was going to come on

54:09

for that. Sorry,

54:11

I should have left that.

54:13

Go on. Well I was going to say, Autosport 2020, we do the bookazine

54:17

to celebrate our seven decades

54:19

and the theme is the greatest

54:21

drivers cars for each sort of

54:23

major discipline. You put the

54:25

E30 and commissioned our wonderful rider Gary Watkins

54:28

to do it and I know you're going

54:30

to come back at me and say that

54:32

was on the basis of what two DTM

54:34

titles, world touring cars, four Italian titles. However,

54:37

24 hours. Yeah, all of that but E30,

54:39

well, 1998, you're

54:41

a pro-drive, Frank Sitner, the

54:43

91, Will Hoy, the Vickley racing car and

54:46

at one point off another title in 1990.

54:48

I'm not saying the E30 M3 should be

54:50

top but it's not in this list and

54:53

it feels like now is the time to discuss it because

54:55

with your name at the top of

54:57

the panel, you said it was the greatest touring

54:59

car. I think we

55:01

may even have mentioned this with Marcus Simons, we did

55:03

the Autosport 70 touring car debate. For

55:06

me, the M3 is the greatest touring car but it's

55:08

not the greatest British touring car. I didn't even make

55:10

this list because it just

55:12

doesn't have, yeah, it was always playing second

55:14

fiddle. In Europe and the world, it

55:17

did, well, I mean, it beat Ford

55:20

on a wider stage but the M3 never looked like

55:22

beating the RS500 in Britain. They

55:25

would be battling over eighth and... If you've

55:28

got James Weaver on absolutely mega drive, he

55:30

might get it into sixth or seventh. There's

55:32

a 200 horsepower difference on some of the...

55:34

Yeah, exactly, yeah. On a world stage, the

55:37

RS500, it counts against it because it was

55:39

defeated by the Skyline. You could say the

55:41

R32 Nissan Skyline was the ultimate group A

55:43

car but that didn't appear in British touring

55:46

car or British saloon car, no, it was

55:48

British touring car, I think by then, touring

55:50

car chances. So it has all the

55:52

boxes, it wins everything between... When it

55:54

comes in, it wins everything from the end of 87

55:57

all the way through to the end of 90. single

56:00

race so

56:02

much and there was quite a lot of good racing

56:04

but it was Rob Gravitt was actually able to still

56:07

win the overall championship when they were still class things

56:09

with it Andy Rouse missed out but he

56:11

did win the top class obviously with it as

56:13

well and actually won the most races in RS500 but it just ticked

56:17

so many the box it was it was the British

56:19

touring car for a two and a half year three

56:22

and a half year really period the

56:25

whole it really the RS500 coming out

56:27

of homologation was the very thing that

56:29

created super touring so it almost

56:31

creates because it's taking the

56:34

monopoly that the Ford creates

56:36

then creates a vacuum which

56:38

leads to which touring cars

56:40

most iconic era so

56:43

it's significant it's successful and

56:46

if we're talking spectacular touring car that does a

56:48

hundred and seventy miles 75 miles

56:50

an hour spitting flame and that doesn't have

56:52

big enough wheel up its floor is actually

56:54

one of its strengths it

56:56

was it sat too high the wheel arches weren't

56:58

big enough which meant they couldn't get big enough

57:00

rubber underneath it which meant they were sideways and

57:03

they fried tires and it was spectacular

57:05

to watch and you know Tim Harley said you know the

57:07

super touring era was the British touring cars you know great

57:09

year where the Road Wrestly one was a better car than

57:11

the the RS500 but in terms of

57:13

spectacular have fun put a grill and you know

57:15

smile on your face I think whether you're behind

57:17

the wheel or watching it from trackside it's

57:20

the RS500 you know while there are

57:22

a spot what other touring cars are blown past in their 3,000

57:24

car down the back threat seals down down how

57:27

straight I would suspect only the

57:29

RS500 has managed that yeah

57:31

very very little to add and certainly

57:33

no complaints or disagreements 40 wins 500

57:35

horsepower on a good day like you say

57:38

bit a hot rod massively over-engined or maybe

57:40

it should be under tired lots of turbo

57:42

boost lots of flames and

57:44

it rent it rendered every other car obsolete

57:46

you know every single round from Donington and

57:48

September 1987 to the new two-liter

57:52

era coming in 1991 it won

57:55

every race it was the car to have

57:58

obviously got a silly class-based system and Rob

58:00

Grabit with the special Yokohama

58:02

tyres for it to finally take

58:05

the big trophy. But I

58:07

think our criteria or your criteria

58:09

for any of these lists is

58:12

level of competition or era or

58:14

whatever. But it forced the rule

58:16

book to be rewritten and it

58:18

retired on top. And I

58:20

know this is a British touring

58:22

car list, but European titles, two Bathurst

58:25

wins and like you say, the only car that could

58:27

beat it had four-wheel drive. It was

58:30

the RS500 was just mega. Yeah,

58:33

super touring here was a British touring car's

58:36

greatest period, but the RS500 is the greatest

58:38

car. Yeah. And this is me dropping

58:40

the mic. And

58:42

that, the listener, is our podcast. If

58:44

you want to go and I watched a video

58:47

a couple of years ago, probably, a great

58:49

YouTuber, a great auto journalist, Johnny Smith, who

58:51

was car pervert. Now I think it's a

58:54

late break show. He's called his YouTube channel.

58:56

Big up Stanford. So he, he

58:58

found, he found a guy in the

59:00

UK who's got two Sierra

59:03

Cosworth in his garage. One's a road car

59:05

and one is an RS500 that I think raced

59:07

down under either the Aussie or New

59:09

Zealand or you guys would know more than me. I

59:11

know the video you're on about. A little bit of

59:13

Mobile One sponsorship down the side of it. But

59:15

this, it's a great video to go and

59:18

watch with a real passionate owner who absolutely

59:21

preserves these cars and they are fine examples.

59:23

So go and watch that. Well a couple

59:25

of things there. A Ford that was so

59:27

good that Peter Brock, a Holden man, ended

59:30

up driving one. And

59:32

also I had a chat to

59:34

Steve Sape about the RS500 and

59:37

actually he's very, Steve's an interesting

59:39

guy. He's not particularly fuffed about cars he

59:41

raced in period. That's why in

59:43

historic racing he'll race anything that he hasn't raced before

59:45

because he likes a new experience. But I

59:47

did, I said, what do you think about the RS500? And he

59:49

said, he said, I was actually like, yeah, it was quite good.

59:51

And then I drove one again at a demo. And

59:54

he said, oh, that's something I thought, these

59:56

are quick. He

59:58

suddenly, he suddenly remembered. but how impressive

1:00:00

it was, they were pretty incredible. So,

1:00:03

you know, Steve Saper's a pretty chill kind of guy,

1:00:05

you know, he doesn't get super, he's

1:00:08

not someone that bounces around in his chair,

1:00:10

where he's very kind of cool, calm and

1:00:12

collected. So for him to get enthusiastic about

1:00:14

a touring car, I think he's pretty cool.

1:00:17

And of course, we can finish with one

1:00:19

of the great touring car moments of all

1:00:21

time, Steve Saper

1:00:23

and the Egermeer car versus

1:00:25

Andrew House in his car,

1:00:28

brand hatch, gourm pre-track, going

1:00:30

backwards and forwards with rather amusingly, the privateer,

1:00:32

kind of having more grunt than the Egermeer

1:00:34

car every time they go down, out

1:00:37

of 30s, down the drop. So,

1:00:39

yeah, I think that's probably available on,

1:00:42

well, the video channel would be your choice.

1:00:46

So, yeah, great car, great moments,

1:00:48

great drives, great liveries and

1:00:51

flame spitting. All

1:00:53

future top tens by the sounds of it. But we can't

1:00:55

tell you what the future topics will be. You

1:00:57

will have to carry on listening to this

1:00:59

series and hopefully you enjoyed that one.

1:01:02

Thank you so much for listening. I

1:01:04

will catch you on the next podcast.

1:01:07

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