0:09

Welcome to the Stepping Into Meaningful Relationships

0:11

podcast . I'm your host , carissa

0:14

Stepp . I'm a relationship and

0:16

human design coach , and this podcast

0:18

is designed to help you create a stronger

0:20

connection to yourself so you can

0:22

transform the relationships around you

0:25

, whether that be with your partner , a friend , a

0:27

parent , a child or your business . We

0:30

will be looking at relationships through the lens of

0:32

human design , and my guests and I

0:34

will bring you the tools , tips and tricks

0:36

to create deeply meaningful connections with

0:38

others . But first let's

0:40

start with you . The most important

0:42

relationship you have is the one with yourself . Thank

0:45

you for tuning in . Now let's get to today's

0:47

episode . Hey

0:51

, hey , everyone . Welcome back to another

0:53

episode of Stepping Into Meaningful Relationships

0:55

, the podcast where we help you create

0:58

a more meaningful connection with yourself

1:00

so that you can create deeper and healthier

1:02

relationships with those around you . Today

1:04

, I am going to be chatting with Chelsea

1:07

Liaga . She is a former

1:09

teacher , turned couples therapist and

1:11

content creator , known as my

1:13

friend the therapist . On Instagram , chelsea

1:16

shares relatable and researched-based information

1:18

to help couples create the marriage of

1:20

their dreams . Chelsea , thank you so

1:22

much for being on the show today .

1:25

Thank you , I'm so excited to be here

1:27

.

1:27

Great , I'm so excited too , and what

1:30

we're going to be talking about today is how

1:32

to have less conflict and

1:34

more connection in your relationships

1:36

. So , chelsea , I'd love

1:39

for you to share with the audience

1:41

a little bit more about the

1:43

different conflict styles because we were

1:45

chatting about this before we hit record and

1:47

I'd love for you to share your wisdom

1:49

and your knowledge to help us identify what

1:51

our conflict styles are and why they're important

1:54

to be aware of .

1:56

Yes , of course there are

1:58

three main conflict styles

2:00

, and whenever I'm talking about

2:02

conflict with people , I always like to preface

2:04

it by saying that conflict is normal in

2:07

a relationship . But when

2:09

we can turn conflict into communication

2:11

. Communication is what brings us from

2:14

where our marriage is at , where

2:16

it feels icky or we don't like it , to

2:18

where we want it to be . So

2:20

learning about conflict styles

2:23

and identifying your patterns is

2:25

just the key to improving your communication

2:27

so that you can improve all the aspects of your

2:29

relationship . So

2:32

the three main types

2:34

of conflict are they're

2:36

kind of patterns . I like to imagine them as

2:39

people . This first one so you've got two

2:41

people , one is the chaser and

2:43

one is the runner and

2:46

all of these conflict styles are based in what's

2:48

called EFT or Emotion-Focused

2:50

Therapy . So in

2:52

the first one , the chaser and the runner imagine

2:54

like little kids playing chase on

2:56

the playground . One person is running

2:58

away , that's the runner , and then the other person

3:00

is chasing them , and

3:03

usually in conflict you and your partner are

3:05

equally matched in speed . So

3:07

the runner is running away at three miles an

3:09

hour and the chaser is chasing at three miles

3:11

an hour and you're not actually getting

3:13

any closer to each other . You're

3:16

not winning the game or anything . You're both just getting

3:18

exhausted because you're chasing each other

3:20

and just getting worn out . Usually

3:24

the chaser is criticizing

3:28

and then the runner is withdrawing

3:30

. So the act of chasing

3:32

is saying , like you

3:35

know , you're doing this wrong . We need to work on this

3:37

, we need to improve this . If you did

3:39

this , our marriage would be better . It's

3:41

very like there's something wrong

3:44

with you and if that was better , things would

3:46

be better . And then the runner feels

3:48

like I'm not good enough

3:50

. Why should I be in this relationship

3:53

? I'm just making things worse . I'm never going to

3:55

measure up . So they withdraw emotionally

3:57

or physically .

3:59

Yeah , I could see that it's almost

4:01

like why bother trying ? Nothing I do is

4:03

good enough anyway .

4:05

For sure , for sure and

4:07

I think we all do this at times in our lives Like

4:09

I'm not very athletic , so , like with sports

4:11

, I'm like , I'm not competitive , I don't even want to

4:13

try because I know I'm not going to be good right , and but

4:16

we do the same thing with our relationships too .

4:18

Yeah , we self sabotage . We have that fear of failure

4:20

. Why , why should I bother trying if I'm going

4:22

to fail anyway ? I might as well save myself from the pain

4:24

and just not do it .

4:26

Yes , yes , and

4:28

not to throw out gender stereotypes , but usually

4:31

women are the chaser and men

4:33

are the runners . Women are

4:35

more prone and likely to be perfectionists

4:38

and their

4:41

efforts to chase or to improve their

4:43

relationships or criticize their partner . They're

4:45

usually from a good place , they want things to get

4:47

better , but it's usually

4:49

the delivery that then makes the runner

4:52

feel like they're not good enough .

4:54

Right , hence the conflict that comes from

4:56

. Yeah , yes , I understand . Okay , so

4:59

, while you mentioned , like women are , have like a good intention around why they're bringing

5:01

this up right , cause they have this end

5:04

goal that they want , which is a closer , deeper connection

5:06

with their partner . But

5:08

I can also see how potentially

5:11

some wounding

5:15

could be showing up for both

5:17

of these partners that

5:19

have adapted these behaviors

5:21

or patterns of behavior that

5:24

are causing them to feel like they need

5:26

to behave in the way that they are . So , in other words

5:28

, if we're criticizing our partner for , say

5:31

, not being good enough or

5:33

not doing enough or whatever it might be

5:35

, it could actually be reflective of

5:37

maybe we're not feeling good enough

5:39

.

5:41

Exactly , yeah , and usually

5:43

it all kind of goes back to our open thoughts , our

5:45

own mindset , and there's a lot of environmental

5:47

and certain stances of things that make women more

5:49

likely to be perfectionists , like just

5:52

like female beauty standards

5:55

and , you know , societal

5:57

expectations of women . There's a lot of expectations

5:59

placed on women , so then they don't feel good

6:01

enough . They're being criticized by

6:03

society and media and advertising

6:05

all the time , and so then

6:07

they're like well , I got to get better . And

6:10

then that bleeds into the relationship . Then we need

6:13

to get better and you need to get better , cause

6:15

I'm working so hard on myself . You need to be working

6:17

hard to improve too . And then women just get

6:19

exhausted and they're like I'm tired of carrying

6:21

the weight of improving our relationship all the time

6:23

.

6:24

Right , and I guess I would also say that , like , maybe

6:26

women are probably the

6:28

largest consumer of

6:31

self development whether

6:33

it's books or tools or , you know

6:35

, therapy or counseling or coaching as

6:37

opposed to men anyway . So it's like I

6:39

can see how , when we start

6:41

doing the work on ourselves , sometimes

6:43

it can create more conflict in the relationship

6:46

because we feel like , you know , I'm doing

6:49

this work to improve and I'm , you

6:51

know , rising up or evolving in some way

6:53

, and at the other hand , it's like there's

6:55

this fear of I'm leaving my partner behind

6:58

or you know he's not rising

7:00

up to meet me , you know he's not rising to

7:02

the occasion and also doing this work

7:04

on himself .

7:06

Yeah , yeah , that can definitely be

7:08

a dynamic that comes into play and

7:11

something that I think is so amazing about

7:13

a lot of men . I mean , my

7:15

husband is the man I know the best

7:17

, but he is just so

7:19

like content with who he is . There's

7:22

like this quiet confidence about him and I think a lot of

7:24

men have that , a lot of men don't but just

7:27

it's not like a I don't

7:29

need to improve because I'm fine , but it's just like I'm

7:32

a good person , things are okay . It's like this

7:35

quiet confidence that I think the

7:38

female population could definitely learn

7:40

from at times .

7:42

Yeah , so that's one dynamic right the chaser

7:45

and the runner . And

7:48

the other thing that I kind of wanted to talk

7:50

about real quick and then I want to continue from there with more questions

7:52

which is I also see

7:54

this happen a lot in a

7:56

lot of toxic and unhealthy relationships

7:58

too , right , so we're talking about

8:01

this assuming that people are in healthy relationships

8:03

, but there's also moreorder , um go ahead

8:05

. Something that I want to bring up

8:07

, which is in unhealthy

8:09

relationships . We see a lot of this chasing

8:12

and running as well , because the

8:14

abuse cycle is very much

8:16

a chase and a run

8:18

. You know , you've got this like love bombing

8:21

phase right , where you've got your partner coming in

8:23

and they're just adoring you and they're lavishing all

8:25

this attention and love and all

8:27

these things that make us feel so good that

8:30

maybe we've been seeking for

8:32

so long outside of ourselves instead of giving it to ourselves

8:34

to begin with , right , and then

8:36

we get to the devaluation phase and then the discard

8:38

phase and then the hoovering , right . So

8:40

we kind of like go through this like constant

8:43

run around of chasing

8:45

the thing right , chasing the next high

8:47

, and so we see that

8:49

a lot , and it's actually

8:51

when we talk about this cycle

8:54

. There's an addictive component

8:56

to it . Right , that's what creates a trauma

8:58

bond . It's really that addiction

9:00

to chasing that next high after

9:03

the low , and so our brain

9:05

and the highs secreting all those

9:07

happy dopamine , oxytocin

9:10

, serotonin chemicals , and

9:12

then when we get into the lows , our

9:14

body is secreting , you know , norapenifrin

9:17

, epenifrin and cortisol , and

9:19

so we're constantly looking to get

9:21

back onto that next feel good kind

9:23

of happy hormone cycle . So

9:26

I don't want to dive into that and go in a different direction

9:28

, but I just wanted to highlight that if

9:30

you're experiencing this in your relationship , like just

9:32

be aware that if this is

9:34

happening , yes , it may be normal If

9:37

you're in a healthy relationship . If this is happening

9:39

in an unhealthy relationship , then this

9:42

is a red flag for you and you need to pay attention . So

9:44

I'm just going to put that little footnote

9:47

on that conversation .

9:49

Yes , I think that is super important

9:52

because , yeah , there's a lot of patterns that

9:54

are normal , but they're exaggerated in an

9:56

abusive relationship and

9:58

there's a lot more harm that

10:00

is done in them . So yeah , thanks for pointing that out

10:03

.

10:04

Yeah , so that's one conflict style , and

10:06

then there are a couple of more .

10:07

Yes . So the next conflict style is

10:10

the blame game , and

10:12

sometimes people might be

10:14

a runner and a chaser and then

10:16

the runner gets fed

10:18

up and so they start to criticize back and

10:20

that usually kind of turns into this blame game

10:22

. There's

10:26

other things too that you

10:28

know , like why someone might be one conflict

10:30

style versus another , like personality type

10:32

, gender , how you were raised

10:34

. All sorts of things like that kind of play a role

10:37

here . But the blame game is where one

10:39

partner blames the other for whatever the problem

10:41

is . Let's say , you know

10:43

the dishes aren't done , and so

10:46

partner one it says to partner to oh

10:48

, this is all your fault , you never do the dishes . And

10:50

partner two says yeah , but you didn't mop

10:52

the floors like you said you were going to . And it just

10:55

goes back and forth , back and forth

10:57

, shooting these emotional bullets at each

10:59

other , blaming each other and

11:01

seeing your partner as the problem instead

11:03

of the real problem . As the problem , like in this

11:06

example , the chores are the problem , not your partner

11:08

, and we hurt each other

11:10

when we do that .

11:11

And it's interesting , though , because the chores aren't

11:14

the problem . It's pointing towards

11:16

a deeper wound , right ? So

11:18

when we feel like our partner is not

11:20

doing the dishes , we think that

11:22

they're saying to us that

11:24

their time is more important

11:26

than our time or they're more valuable

11:29

than us , right ? There's like that subtle that

11:31

trigger that happens where you know , our

11:33

core wound of like I'm not important or I'm

11:35

not enough or I'm not lovable or

11:37

whatever it might be , gets triggered

11:39

, and then we react and we just need

11:42

to take that hurt that we are feeling

11:44

and project it out onto somebody else

11:46

because that's feel safer

11:48

to just get into like this , to like defended

11:51

position , to just pass it off

11:53

like a hot potato back to somebody else .

11:55

Yeah , too painful to hold within

11:57

ourselves , so we got to push it out .

11:59

Yeah , instead of doing the work on ourselves and understanding

12:02

like , oh wait , I'm feeling triggered right now . Let

12:04

me take a deep breath , let me focus on what I'm

12:06

feeling and let me understand why

12:08

I'm feeling this way . Is it really about the chores

12:11

or is there something else underneath

12:13

all of this that needs to be addressed

12:16

, whether it's within myself or within the

12:18

relationship ?

12:20

Yeah , yeah , exactly . And

12:22

when someone can do that , their

12:25

nervous system stays more regulated , they're

12:27

more calm , and then they're able to communicate

12:30

in a way that's kind and respectful and

12:32

productive .

12:33

Yes , and I could talk about the nervous

12:35

system all day long . I'm not going to go off on a tangent

12:37

Hi

12:40

, it's a big part of my work . So I love

12:42

, I love , love , love talking

12:44

about the nervous system and how we move through the different

12:46

nervous system states and how we can down regulate

12:49

ourselves , and why it's important and how that's

12:51

like such a huge key to

12:53

making sure that we're showing up calm

12:56

and present and grounded in our relationships that

12:58

we can change how we relate

13:00

to other people and communicate with other people . But

13:03

I'm going to back off .

13:06

Maybe we should do a part two and talk about the nervous system

13:08

, because I love it too .

13:09

That would be a great idea . So

13:12

okay , so we have this like blame game happening

13:14

, where people are just passing the buck back and

13:16

forth and essentially no one's taking accountability

13:18

. So how , we kind of talked a little bit

13:20

about how maybe we can start to resolve

13:22

that conflict . But in the

13:24

moment , like what can people do when they're

13:27

experiencing , because it doesn't feel

13:29

very good when you're passing

13:31

the blame back and forth ? So like , what can we do

13:33

to disrupt that ? Maybe

13:36

, like what's one thing people can do today

13:38

to disrupt that pattern ?

13:40

Yeah , I think using I statements instead

13:42

of you statements is always always

13:44

. It's usually the key to almost every

13:46

conflict style . So instead

13:49

of saying you never do

13:51

the dishes , saying something

13:53

like I feel frustrated

13:55

that the dishes aren't done , it

13:58

keeps the emotional charge

14:00

on the dishes instead of the person

14:02

. So then your partner isn't going to feel attacked

14:05

, so then they're not going to fight back , they're

14:07

not going to start blaming you for something else . And

14:10

a key to kind of both of these is that

14:12

if your partner is acting

14:14

either defensively or they're

14:18

running away with drawing , that

14:20

means they felt criticized in some way

14:22

. So that is just data

14:25

for you to take and learn from and say

14:27

, okay , maybe my approach wasn't the best it could

14:29

have been in that situation . Obviously

14:31

, your partner could work on the way that they receive it , but you can't

14:33

control that . You can really only control the way that you

14:35

act . So using

14:39

I statements expressing feelings and keeping

14:41

it focused on the actual problem

14:43

at hand and if you and your

14:45

partner do and start blaming each other for

14:47

things , just saying the phrase we're on

14:49

the same team could just

14:51

really calm everyone down and remind everyone

14:53

like we're on the same team . The enemy here

14:55

is the dishes or the in-laws

14:58

or the trash can or whatever

15:00

it is , and not each other .

15:02

Yeah , I love that . You know to your point

15:04

. It's almost like if that's something

15:07

that really bothers you , because maybe you have a boundary

15:10

around having , you

15:12

know , cleanliness in your home or whatever . It might

15:14

be right , because we obviously value different

15:16

things , and so sometimes it's

15:19

like when our values are compromised in

15:21

some way by our partner , it's

15:23

our clue that we

15:25

need to set a boundary right , and

15:27

it could be just as you're saying

15:29

, using an I statement to share how

15:32

you're feeling . Right , like I

15:35

feel really frustrated when the dishes aren't done

15:37

, because it makes

15:39

me feel like you don't value

15:41

my time and you're expecting me to get it done . What

15:44

I need is , if you're responsible

15:46

for the dishes you know , if you're not to do the dishes

15:48

, or if you're the one who made the dirty dishes

15:50

, would it be possible to

15:53

make sure that , within

15:55

a couple of hours from whatever it might be Like

15:57

, whatever your boundary is like , I need you to rinse

15:59

it and put it in the dishwasher so that I'm not left feeling

16:01

like you're expecting me to do it , which

16:04

causes me frustration . Right , like I just feel like sometimes

16:07

we talk a lot about even

16:09

just like with boundaries , people think that it's like saying

16:11

no and like that's the only thing . But

16:13

I feel like to resolve conflict . Sometimes

16:15

it's like if we have boundaries and we've set the

16:17

expectations beforehand , it

16:20

minimizes that conflict .

16:23

Exactly , exactly , and

16:25

that's what I love . Are you familiar with the Fair Play

16:27

system ? I ?

16:29

am . I just got the card deck in the book

16:31

and I'm like I need to recommend this to everybody

16:34

.

16:34

It's amazing and that's what I love about the Fair Play

16:36

system . Anyone listening it's by Eve

16:38

Rodskeying . We'll look up her book . There's a documentary

16:40

on Hulu about it

16:43

. But yeah , it really . It sets up

16:45

these boundaries and these systems to know who's in charge

16:47

of what , so that you don't have to waste your time communicating

16:49

about the dishes and you can live

16:51

a more meaningful life outside of chores

16:54

and things like that . So love the

16:56

Fair Play system for that .

16:58

So I want to bring you just back to the

17:00

chaser and the runner real quick , because we talked a little bit

17:02

about how to resolve the conflict in

17:04

the blame game , but how do we resolve that

17:06

chase in the chaser

17:09

runner situation ?

17:12

Yeah , both people in the partnership have to be able

17:14

to recognize what's going on . The

17:17

person who withdraws , the runner

17:19

, needs to know and needs

17:22

to be able to express what it feels like

17:24

when they are withdrawing . They need to be

17:26

able to say you know these , this

17:28

tone of voice , this word choice , this

17:30

posture , whatever makes

17:32

me feel unsafe and that's why

17:34

I withdraw . They need to be

17:36

able to express that . And then the

17:38

chaser needs to be able to

17:41

stop chasing

17:43

. Pretty much the runner needs to stop

17:45

running . The chaser needs to stop chasing , and

17:47

not chasing looks like not

17:50

criticizing , expressing more gratitude

17:52

, using I statements instead

17:54

of you statements again . So instead of saying that you

17:57

need to improve the relationship or you need

17:59

to stop whatever , sharing

18:01

more of how you feel , a lot of it comes

18:03

down to vulnerability . Both

18:06

people have to be a little more vulnerable . The

18:08

chaser has to say you know , I felt

18:10

unsafe in some way and that's why I started chasing

18:12

you . And the runner needs to say I felt

18:14

unsafe in this way and that's why I started running

18:16

. And once you both

18:18

stop running and chasing , then you can turn towards

18:20

each other and connect and communicate

18:23

and develop that emotional safety that

18:25

you need to be able to stay close to each other

18:27

instead of run away from each other .

18:29

Yeah , definitely I love

18:31

that . And , like , what came to mind was I

18:34

feel like most people carry this wound

18:36

of abandonment , right , this fear

18:38

of rejection . And that's often times

18:40

why we run or why

18:43

we chase is because we're afraid we're

18:45

going to get rejected . And so we're either

18:47

running from it because we're like I can't , because

18:49

I'm going to get rejected , I'm going to get criticized , that that's a rejection

18:51

, right . And then the chaser

18:54

is kind of like oh , don't leave me , wait

18:56

, wait for me . Like you can't go

18:58

anywhere , get back here . And

19:01

what I also thought about as you were talking

19:03

was I feel like this is even reflective of

19:05

attachment styles , right

19:08

, anxious attachment and avoidant attachment

19:11

, and I was wondering , like , obviously

19:13

, does that play into even determining what

19:15

your conflict style is ?

19:18

It totally could . It totally could . And what's

19:20

interesting is that attachment styles really

19:22

all come down to trauma and nervous

19:25

system stuff Like everything really , I feel like always

19:27

comes back to the nervous system . But someone

19:29

who is anxiously attached is more

19:31

likely , I say , to be a chaser , and

19:33

someone who is more avoidantly attached is more likely

19:36

to be a runner .

19:37

Yeah , and I could see , even though , how the roles

19:39

could flip , because you

19:42

know , I think that our attachment

19:44

styles I think that

19:46

sometimes , like we're not just one attachment style

19:49

, we can actually be a blend , and

19:51

I think , depending on who we're with

19:53

and what they bring out in us , will depend

19:55

on which pattern of behavior kind of shows

19:57

up more in the relationship . And

20:00

so it's almost like being aware of

20:03

what your patterns of behavior are

20:05

when you're feeling unsafe is the key

20:07

to understanding how

20:09

you're showing up and acting from those insecurities

20:12

in the relationship or within yourself

20:14

even , so that you can

20:17

disrupt that pattern and

20:20

yeah exactly yeah

20:22

, and instead like respond instead

20:24

of react .

20:26

Yes , yes , and it all comes back to that safety

20:28

, that emotional safety . When you feel

20:30

emotionally safe with your partner , you can tell

20:32

them anything and you can do it in a calm

20:34

, kind , clear way , because

20:36

your brain is working fully all

20:39

the parts , your prefrontal cortex is online

20:41

, so you can say things in

20:43

the way that you mean and that align with your values and that

20:45

don't hurt other people's feelings . And

20:48

I mean we could

20:50

do a whole nother podcast on just what emotional safety

20:52

is and how to create it , but just

20:56

reflect on the times with your partner where you felt like you really

20:58

could have a good deep discussion with them or you

21:00

felt so close and connected to them , and

21:03

that's really emotional safety

21:05

.

21:05

Yeah , I think that we have to create

21:07

that safety within ourselves first

21:09

, so that we feel safe being

21:11

vulnerable , because vulnerability , I believe

21:13

, is the key to creating that emotional intimacy

21:16

. Yeah

21:18

, so what's the third conflict

21:20

style ?

21:22

Third conflict style is called the double

21:25

freeze out . It's usually where people

21:27

end up last , after

21:29

they've chased each other , they've worn out some

21:32

of the straw breaks and they just start blaming

21:34

each other . And then eventually everyone is

21:36

just tired of it and

21:38

the relationship is cold

21:40

. There's not a lot of fighting

21:42

, but there's not a lot of warmth . It's

21:44

like you're just roommates living in the same house

21:47

. You feel a lot of resentment

21:49

towards the other person , but you've had so

21:51

many bad experiences with communication

21:53

that it doesn't feel safe to talk about things

21:55

. So you just hold it in and maybe

21:58

every once in a while you explode and yell at

22:00

other , and then you go

22:02

back to the silent treatment . And

22:05

most

22:08

people with this complex style . They talk

22:10

about important things . They'll

22:12

talk about you know , like oh , my family's

22:14

coming into town , or you know we

22:16

need to buy a new car . You know they'll communicate about things

22:18

, but they don't really communicate on an emotional

22:21

level . They don't say things like hey

22:23

, when you talk to me in that tone of voice , it really hurt my feelings

22:25

and I need you to , you

22:27

know , be a little bit more respectful next time . They wouldn't say things

22:30

like that , because that just is so

22:32

far outside of where they feel comfortable

22:34

and safe .

22:35

Yeah , so if people come to you and

22:37

they're in that double freeze out state

22:40

in their relationship , is that

22:42

like DUA , like dead upon arrival

22:45

, or is there actually a chance to

22:47

work with them to

22:49

get through that ? Because I mean , I've even thinking of like

22:51

a nervous system standpoint , like both partners

22:54

at that point are in a freeze state

22:56

, right , they're dissociated , they're emotionally

22:58

disconnected or numbed

23:00

out , right , they're just kind of just going through the

23:02

motions and , like you said , they're not

23:04

feeling safe in the

23:06

relationship . They're probably not feeling safe within

23:09

themselves to be able to allow

23:11

any kind of vulnerability . So how

23:13

do we , how do people , start to claw

23:15

back from that ?

23:17

Yeah , yeah , and I'll also add

23:19

too , like this is the time where infidelity

23:22

is most likely to happen . Because your

23:24

needs aren't getting met by your partner , because you don't feel safe

23:26

expressing them , so you turn

23:28

to other places . But

23:30

in couples therapy , if I have a couple who comes

23:33

in and they're like this , I would recommend

23:35

them both for individual therapy as well , just

23:37

so that they can learn how to manage their

23:39

thoughts and their emotions and

23:42

improve some of the lifestyle things that are

23:44

going to help them to feel more

23:47

connected with themselves , so that they

23:49

can identify there's a lot of self betrayal

23:52

that goes on when you're in a

23:54

double freeze out , because you know what's

23:56

going on in your heart and in your mind but

23:58

you just can't express it , and that feels

24:00

like for a lot of people like a self betrayal

24:03

, so then it messes with our confidence

24:05

and all sorts of things that can be

24:07

really dangerous . So this is

24:09

a situation where I would where

24:11

there needs to be more support for individuals and

24:13

for the marriage .

24:15

Interesting . And then would you recommend

24:17

them that couples get separate

24:19

individual therapists and then obviously

24:22

a joint couples therapist

24:24

is what works best , yeah , so there would be like three

24:26

people . Gotcha

24:29

. Yeah , that makes sense and I

24:31

could see that . I could see how there

24:35

is that self betrayal aspect

24:37

to it . I could also see that

24:39

people start to self abandon parts

24:41

of themselves , like if they don't feel safe

24:44

even being themselves . Then it could

24:46

be really hard to show up in

24:48

a relationship and feel comfortable voicing

24:52

your truth or voicing how you feel

24:54

and how you . You know what's

24:56

going on for you , what your fears are

24:58

. Right , because I think a lot

25:00

of times it's like when we're in that freeze

25:02

state it's because we are so overwhelmed

25:05

with some subconscious

25:08

perception of danger

25:10

, right , like it's not safe .

25:13

Yeah , yeah , and that's

25:15

really what it is , and we slowly

25:17

, slowly , slowly work on creating

25:19

that emotional safety . I'll

25:22

have my practice talking

25:24

about insignificant things so

25:26

that they can just warm up to

25:28

it . I one of the exercises

25:30

I have my clients do at

25:32

this point is I have them plan

25:35

a fake trip to Disneyland and

25:37

talk about you know , there's a lot of decisions

25:39

that have to be made and I make

25:41

them practice , you know , paraphrasing what the other person

25:44

said validating their feelings , respecting

25:46

their opinions about you know where they want to stay

25:48

and what rides they want to ride . You know all

25:50

these different things because

25:52

you've had a bunch of data

25:55

points that tells you we can't even communicate

25:57

, it's not safe , so that we need to start creating

25:59

a new set of data points that tells you okay

26:02

, we talked about our fake trip to Disneyland , maybe

26:04

we can talk about I don't

26:06

know our plans for the holidays , and that's real

26:08

. Or maybe we can talk about finances

26:11

, and that's real , or you know , and then we

26:13

kind of step into it and then eventually we're like , okay , maybe

26:16

we can talk about our emotions , and then maybe

26:18

we can talk about sex and then maybe we can talk

26:20

about all these other things . So it's

26:22

kind of baby steps in practicing .

26:24

Yeah , it's almost like a titration , because if

26:27

you move too fast it's

26:29

almost your nervous system is going to shut down again anyway

26:31

. So you kind of have to move

26:33

at the pace . Yeah , a slow pace

26:35

, right times two for

26:38

both people .

26:40

Yes , yes .

26:42

So interesting . So okay , so we've

26:44

talked about the different conflict styles

26:46

. And how can we

26:48

so ? It seems to me almost like they're not even styles

26:51

. It almost feels to me like they're stages

26:53

. Is that right ? Yeah , yeah .

26:55

And it kind of depends on the person . Some people

26:57

will stay and chase her and run her forever . Some

27:00

people are just more

27:02

naturally , you know , depending on their

27:04

worldview , they might be

27:06

more likely to blame first than you

27:09

know . There's so many things

27:11

that go into it , but for

27:13

a lot of people they are stages , and that's what

27:16

I why I love talking about this , because

27:18

once you can realize what your conflict

27:20

style is and you can see it in the moment

27:22

, then you can do something different and

27:24

you can change it . You can try something else , and

27:26

that's really the simplest way

27:28

to improve your relationship is

27:30

just to try something different , because obviously

27:33

what you're doing isn't working .

27:34

Right , and I think that , like your conflict style , is probably

27:36

very tied into your communication style

27:38

too .

27:39

Yeah , yeah

27:42

, and most people find the same pattern of like

27:44

I criticize my spouse

27:46

, but then my mom also

27:48

feels like I criticize her and my best friend also feels

27:51

like I criticize her . And it

27:53

usually goes with the person and not necessarily

27:55

the relationship , which can be a really hard

27:57

pill for some people to swallow , because that takes

27:59

some humility and looking inward .

28:01

But but I think they probably

28:03

also have a really loud inner critic too .

28:05

Like their own inner critic , they're probably also criticizing themselves

28:08

for sure , and that's usually what it comes down to is

28:10

our core beliefs about ourselves .

28:11

And it's like once we heal that , because this

28:13

is why this podcast exists , which is all about

28:16

creating a deeper

28:18

relationship with yourself , because that's going to help you in

28:20

your relationships . Because if you

28:22

can learn how to self accept

28:25

, if you can learn how to quiet

28:27

that inner critic and learn to love

28:30

yourself , then in

28:32

your relationships you're not going to be projecting

28:34

all of that onto somebody else . Number

28:36

one and number two it

28:38

allows you to then learn how to accept someone

28:40

else for their differences

28:43

, for their you know perceived

28:45

flaws or weaknesses and all that kind

28:47

of stuff , because once we realize that we're not

28:49

perfect , we can accept that someone else is also

28:51

not perfect and we're all works in progress

28:54

and it's okay .

28:56

Yeah , yeah . And

28:58

you know , the opposite of criticism is compassion

29:00

. And once you can learn

29:03

self compassion , then

29:05

it's easier to offer compassion to other

29:07

people . And we can , and

29:10

I mean , most of us aren't rude like . We try to

29:12

offer compassion to people even if we don't like ourselves

29:14

, but it's usually not as

29:16

genuine and as deep and as vulnerable as

29:18

it is when we can offer it to ourselves .

29:20

I think it's also coupled with understanding

29:23

, because when we get into relationships , we

29:25

don't often spend time

29:27

talking about , well , what are your deep inner

29:29

core wounds that you carry from childhood

29:31

, you know ? So it's really hard to see

29:34

where someone might be acting from that

29:36

place , right , acting from their

29:38

, their

29:41

scars , even right Like it's it's , it's really

29:43

hard to really uncover and understand . And

29:45

so having conversations where people

29:47

are able to vulnerably open up and be like you know , I had these

29:49

, this experience as a child , and sometimes , you

29:51

know , we have adverse childhood experiences

29:54

that may not be these big traumas

29:56

or these big events that we can even

29:58

identify and label . It's just a series

30:01

of these like small little . It's almost like

30:03

these little paper cuts that happen over

30:05

time , but what they do is they , they

30:07

create over time . Those paper cuts create

30:09

something bigger . They create a bigger cut

30:12

or wound or whatever , and so we

30:15

don't even realize how it has impacted

30:17

our own self perception and

30:19

created then a set

30:21

of beliefs around that that

30:24

, when triggered , causes us to then behave

30:26

in a certain way . Right , it causes

30:28

the emotions that surround that and then the

30:30

actions that come from it . So it's like we

30:33

don't really think about a whole

30:35

person and all of these things

30:37

, especially when we're dating or we're married . And it's

30:39

not until you start doing a lot of work on yourself

30:42

and you can see that within you can

30:44

you then begin to get curious

30:46

in your relationship and

30:48

try to understand your partner

30:51

at the same level by

30:53

talking about it and by opening

30:55

up and being vulnerable , and hopefully they

30:57

reciprocate and will vulnerably share back

31:00

with you to create more of that emotional

31:02

intimacy and understanding between

31:05

the two of you .

31:06

Yeah , exactly , and like a question I

31:08

asked my clients a lot to help them kind

31:10

of start this discussion among themselves

31:12

is when you're in a fight with your

31:14

partner , what does it remind you of ? And

31:17

a lot of times they say it reminds me of when my

31:19

parents were yelling at me as a kid . If you

31:21

see , if you kind of reflect on like , how

31:23

did I act when I was getting

31:25

in trouble as a kid ? Did

31:28

you go and , like , hide in your room

31:30

? Did you yell back at your parents

31:32

? Did you just sit there and take it

31:34

? That's probably pretty reflective

31:36

of what your conflict style is like now as an adult

31:38

.

31:39

I'd also wonder if what the punishment

31:42

was quote-unquote that your parents

31:44

gave you when you were not behaving , if that

31:46

has something to do with the two Like I feel like I'm

31:48

just thinking in my head . I'm like , wow , like a child

31:50

who was sent to their room when they were being

31:53

emotional and they were sharing how

31:55

they felt about something , and then they were told to go to

31:57

their room until they calmed down . How

31:59

that can make somebody learn over time

32:02

to just shut down their feelings and

32:04

to run and hide instead of

32:06

sharing it , because they felt like it wasn't

32:08

okay , it wasn't safe to do that , or

32:10

maybe it was a burden to other people

32:12

, like to their parents right To

32:15

share in that very emotive kind

32:17

of way .

32:18

Yeah . Then it can be so triggering then

32:20

when our partner leaves or

32:22

they tell us like you need to go

32:24

on a walk or something like that , we

32:26

just go back to then this wounded child

32:29

who wasn't getting taken care of like they needed

32:31

to , yeah , and it can

32:33

be really there's , you know , the

32:35

30 year old version of us but the 29

32:37

and the 28 and all the different ages down

32:40

to infancy inside of us and

32:44

when we can understand that and recognize

32:46

that , it just helps us to see our patterns , yeah

32:48

, and we don't want to use it as

32:50

a way to , like you know , justify

32:52

bad behavior or whatever , but just

32:55

it gives you a little bit more insight . And then you can

32:57

kind of work on that inner child stuff and be like

32:59

, okay , well , the adult version of me knows

33:01

how to handle this . You know , I'm a grownup , I can use

33:03

good communication , I can talk to my

33:05

partner about this , but the six year old version of

33:07

me is hurt and maybe she needs a hug

33:09

and she needs some connection , and being

33:12

able to give that to

33:14

yourself can be just that . That's like

33:16

the ultimate form of self compassion , right there .

33:18

Yeah , definitely . Oh

33:20

, inner child work so important . I

33:24

could talk about that for hours too . So

33:27

many people don't realize they're like , oh , that

33:29

seems like , it seems to I don't know . People

33:31

are like I'm , I'm me , like there's not other

33:33

versions of me and I'm like , well , there's no other versions

33:35

of you , but there are parts of you

33:37

that are acting out , that are

33:39

still five years old . You know , like that

33:42

they're still upset about something and they're showing

33:44

up right now and you need to , like , have a conversation

33:46

or do the healing or , you know , understand

33:49

what it is that they want to say , because they're

33:51

trying to get your attention right , like , and not to say

33:53

that , like we've got different personalities and people in our head

33:55

, but but that's what happens

33:57

we revert back to being

34:00

that five year old during the temper tantrum , who

34:03

didn't know how to properly communicate

34:05

and express or even understand

34:07

what they were feeling because it was so overwhelming

34:09

. So , doing the

34:12

work to you

34:14

know , allow yourself the space to

34:16

feel your emotions , to understand

34:18

what's coming up , for you to know

34:21

that it's okay if you feel angry , because

34:23

I think a lot of us even grew up thinking that being

34:25

angry was not okay because we , you

34:28

know , got in trouble for that , or , you

34:30

know , it looked like talking back to our parents

34:32

, which was not okay , which , of course , like being disrespectful

34:34

, is not okay , but that was just

34:36

the way we knew how to communicate . Maybe when we were a teenager

34:39

. You know our anger .

34:41

And no one taught us the skills of how to appropriately

34:43

express anger . So

34:45

what was ? Either express it the way

34:47

I know how and get in trouble , or don't

34:50

express it at all . Right , yeah

34:53

, and an image that I kind of draw up

34:55

for myself when I'm working with clients

34:58

, because sometimes it can be kind of exhausting

35:00

doing public therapy . There's a lot of emotions to

35:02

manage in the room , both of theirs and my

35:04

own , and trying to make progress and

35:06

keep everyone on track and whatever . Anyways

35:09

, something that like always kind of centers me

35:11

is imagining , like I have these two adults on

35:13

my couch , but then I also try to imagine

35:15

that I also have like two five year olds on

35:17

my couch and not in a way

35:19

to like I'm not trying to like demean

35:22

my clients or whatever , but there

35:24

is the five year old version of them in there and

35:27

they're trying to communicate

35:29

to , and it's two

35:31

adults having a discussion , but it's also two kids

35:33

having a discussion , and that's something that always

35:35

just helps me then to offer more compassion

35:37

and more understanding and more help to

35:39

my clients .

35:40

Yeah , and see really where the hurt's coming

35:42

from . Yeah .

35:44

Yeah .

35:45

And I think , like to your point . It's like a lot of us don't learn

35:47

how to communicate properly

35:50

, and

35:52

especially if we had parents

35:54

that were really dysregulated and

35:56

didn't know how to communicate themselves

35:58

and that was modeled for us , then we're going to , obviously

36:01

it's going to , of course , be very

36:04

a big reminder

36:06

when we are fighting and arguing with our partner that

36:08

it's going to , you know , bring us back to childhood and

36:10

our parents and what they were doing , because we're probably just reenacting

36:13

their communication patterns

36:15

and conflict style as well

36:17

, for sure .

36:19

Yes , and I think that right there is like the

36:21

biggest motivation for people to improve their

36:24

relationships and their marriages is

36:26

they want to give their kids

36:28

a better example .

36:29

Yeah , I love that for sure . Well

36:32

, this has been such a great and fun conversation

36:35

. Is there anything else that you feel like

36:37

might be helpful for the listeners to know

36:39

or to understand ? And then , obviously

36:41

, I would love for you to share how everyone can connect with you , which

36:43

will have all your information in the show notes

36:45

. But is there anything else that you

36:47

wanted to share ?

36:49

Yeah , I would just add that

36:51

kind of like what I mentioned earlier

36:53

if what you're doing isn't working , don't

36:56

blame yourself , don't you

36:59

know ? Beat yourself up . You probably

37:01

didn't have good examples . You've probably

37:03

never learned about this . It's okay to be a

37:05

beginner at good communication , but

37:08

trying new ways of saying

37:10

things , new ways of connecting with your

37:12

partner , is really the only way

37:14

forward , and we're

37:17

bad at things when we're new at them , but the more

37:19

we practice , if you don't give up and literally just

37:21

keep trying and keep

37:23

trying new things , trying

37:26

to say things in a different way or

37:28

in a different place or at a different time

37:30

, eventually you're going to figure it out . Everything

37:32

is figure outable and if

37:36

you feel like really overwhelmed by it

37:38

, reach out for help . That's what couples

37:40

of service are here for to guide

37:42

people through this whole process . So that's

37:46

my advice ?

37:46

Awesome , I actually like . Let me do like one more question before

37:49

I let you go , which is when

37:51

is it not figure outable ? Like when do

37:53

you realize , like when you've got a couple sitting in front of you , that

37:55

you're like , okay , this is either really toxic

37:57

and it's not going to improve , or

37:59

you know , when are you like , okay , this is a relationship

38:02

that , just there , it's

38:04

not going to move forward .

38:07

Yeah , if well

38:09

, if someone has cheated and they

38:11

don't see that as morally wrong , then

38:13

that is a huge

38:15

sign that there's this is just not a good

38:17

match , that that person probably

38:19

should not be in relationships if they

38:21

morally don't feel like cheating

38:24

is a bad thing . So if that ever

38:26

comes up and they don't feel remorse and they

38:28

don't feel like it was a bad thing , then that

38:32

is a time where I'm like I would suggest

38:34

separation , abuse

38:36

anytime there is abuse . I

38:39

you can wait

38:41

around and hope and pray that your partner

38:43

is going to change . But research shows that

38:45

the odds are very , very , very , very low

38:47

that people who are abusers stop

38:50

being abusers . I

38:54

personally , I have to hold on

38:56

to this hope that people can change , or else my

38:58

worldview gets very dark . But

39:01

just

39:03

because someone can change or will change

39:05

doesn't mean you have to stay with them . That's something

39:07

else to think about . And

39:11

then if partners aren't willing to both

39:13

take responsibility and recognize how they're contributing

39:15

to the problems in the relationship , then

39:18

that's another sign to me that odds

39:20

are low that things are going to get better .

39:23

Yeah , those are very , very good

39:25

, tangible pieces of

39:27

advice and identification of like okay

39:29

, is this worth working on or not , or

39:31

is this going to help ? And I thank

39:33

you for that permission slip , too that you're giving everyone

39:35

, which is , even if people do change

39:37

doesn't mean you have to stay with them , because

39:40

sometimes I

39:42

feel like people are like there's just too much water

39:44

under the bridge , there's just been too much hurt

39:46

, and if people find

39:48

that they're not able to move past

39:50

that which you know there could

39:52

be still forgiveness , like you forgive

39:54

the person for what happened , but

39:56

maybe the disconnect or

39:59

the hurt has gone so deep that

40:01

getting back to that emotional safety just

40:03

feels like you're not just like jumping

40:06

a puddle or jumping like a small crack

40:08

in the floor , but the divide has gotten so wide

40:11

that it feels almost impossible

40:13

to cross . Would you agree ? Like that

40:15

would probably be ?

40:17

Yeah , yeah , and I and

40:19

I always just think to like , if you , even

40:22

if your partner does change and they're not

40:24

like abusive anymore , they don't cheat anymore

40:26

, if you aren't able to eventually

40:29

feel safe , then

40:31

how is that going to impact the other areas

40:33

of your life ? It's going to impact your health , it's going to impact

40:35

your sleep , it's going to impact your other relationships

40:38

, it's going to impact your ability to perform at work

40:40

and it's going to be impacting your entire

40:42

life . So that's just

40:44

another thing to think about and kind

40:47

of reflect on . Even

40:49

if they change , do I feel completely safe

40:51

in my home ? Do I feel completely safe with this person

40:53

? Do I feel safe with myself

40:56

? And

40:58

kind of reflecting on the pros and cons

41:00

through that lens can be helpful for people

41:02

.

41:03

Yeah , I love that . And also , I guess I would also say

41:05

if you can't , if you

41:07

don't feel love for your partner anymore

41:09

, even if they change like that's obviously

41:11

going to be a clear indicator that maybe

41:14

it's okay to walk away and it's

41:16

time to go move on . Yeah

41:18

Well , thank you so much

41:20

, telsy . So how can everybody reach you , and

41:22

is there anything coming up that you're offering that you'd like

41:24

to share with the audience ?

41:27

Yeah . So I had an ebook about all about

41:29

these conflict styles . In there

41:31

it starts off with a quiz , helps you to kind of figure

41:33

out what your conflict style is , and

41:35

then there's kind of a mini

41:38

chapter about each . So I kind of

41:40

want like a rundown of everything we've talked about

41:42

today . I'm assuming

41:44

we could put a link to that in the show notes . Absolutely , yeah

41:47

. And then I offer couples

41:49

therapy in Arizona in person

41:52

my office is in Queen Creek and

41:54

then I do coaching online

41:56

and I have some courses and

41:58

date night resources

42:00

, and it's all on my website , which is myfriendthetherapistcom

42:04

.

42:05

Fantastic . Well , thank you so much . I

42:07

really appreciate you coming on the show and

42:09

this has been such a fun conversation

42:11

and really informative and valuable , and

42:13

I know that the listeners definitely got something out

42:15

of it . So thank you so much for your time and the

42:17

work that you're doing in this world .

42:20

Of course . Thank you so much , bye .

42:22

All right , everyone , until next week , be well

42:24

. If you're hearing this message

42:26

, that means you've listened all the

42:28

way to the end , and for that I am

42:30

truly grateful . If you enjoyed this

42:32

episode and found it valuable , would you mind leaving

42:35

us a review ? Wherever you listen to podcasts

42:37

and sharing it with others ? If

42:39

you'd like to connect with me for one-on-one coaching or

42:41

human design reading , you can find me on

42:43

my website or on social media . Also

42:46

, if you have a topic you'd like me to discuss on a future

42:48

episode , please DM me . Be

42:50

sure to tune in next week for another episode of

42:53

Stepping into Meaningful Relationships .