0:09

Welcome to the Stepping Into Meaningful Relationships

0:11

podcast . I'm your host , carissa

0:14

Stepp . I'm a relationship and

0:16

human design coach , and this podcast

0:18

is designed to help you create a stronger

0:20

connection to yourself so you can

0:22

transform the relationships around you

0:25

, whether that be with your partner , a friend , a

0:27

parent , a child or your business . We'll

0:30

be looking at relationships through the lens of human

0:32

design , and my guests and I will

0:34

bring you the tools , tips and tricks to

0:36

create deeply meaningful connections with others

0:38

. But first let's start

0:40

with you . The most important relationship

0:43

you have is the one with yourself . Thank

0:45

you for tuning in . Now let's get to today's

0:47

episode . Hey

0:52

, everyone , welcome back to another episode

0:55

. We have my

0:57

friend , april Porter joining us today , and

0:59

I am so excited to have this conversation

1:01

with her . If you remember , she was

1:04

on one of our previous episodes back

1:06

around . I think it was episode eight , where

1:08

we talked about parenting your child

1:10

through the lens of human design . And

1:13

today we're going to actually have a slightly different

1:15

focus of our conversation , because April

1:17

has become an ICF certified

1:20

life and grief coach . She's

1:22

also a need a proficient death doula and

1:25

, as you know , a quantum human design specialist and

1:27

an author , and she's also a functional nutritional

1:29

therapy practitioner . So today

1:31

, what we're going to be talking about through the lens

1:34

of grief is how

1:36

do we start to process living

1:39

losses ? And when we talk about

1:41

living losses , april , I would love for you

1:43

to kind of give the definition of what that means . But

1:46

we're going to talk about that and how it relates

1:48

to our relationships . So

1:50

, april , what is a living loss ?

1:53

Well , thanks for having me back . First of all and

1:55

second , we talk about

1:57

loss and we think grief

2:00

and we think death , and

2:02

there's so many more losses

2:05

that we experience in life . Every day we

2:07

have a loss of something , and so all of these

2:09

little losses that happen in our days we

2:11

can consider living losses . We are

2:14

continuing to live . It's not like somebody

2:16

in our life has died necessarily

2:18

, but there's a loss of something

2:20

. So it can be the ending of a relationship

2:22

, it

2:25

can be the ending of a job , the retirement

2:27

. People retire and they think , oh , life is

2:29

going to be so great when I retire and it's

2:32

going to be wonderful , but then there's this loss of identity

2:34

. So there's so many of these little losses

2:36

that we are encountering every day

2:38

, and I think that we don't often

2:41

take the time to grieve them consciously

2:44

. We are grieving them on some level and

2:46

it comes out as other emotions , like

2:48

anger or frustration or resentment

2:50

, and so I think that when we turn our

2:52

attention toward them and we grieve them

2:54

consciously , we can move through them

2:56

a lot easier .

2:58

I love that , and I hadn't really thought about retirement

3:00

being like a living loss . So thank

3:02

you for giving that as an example , because it's something else to

3:04

ponder and think about . And when you mentioned

3:07

that , the first thing that came to mind was

3:09

well , what about even parents whose

3:11

children are going off to college ?

3:13

Yes , absolutely , or even a

3:15

first time parent . You just lost the identity

3:18

of this identity that you probably

3:20

just found in the last 10 or 20 years

3:22

. We go from being

3:25

a child in our family

3:27

home and then we go out and we figure out who we

3:29

are , and then we become a parent

3:31

and there's a whole other loss

3:33

of identity that happens as we morph

3:36

into this new parent person .

3:38

Yeah , I know I definitely experienced

3:40

that . I found it really , really hard to

3:43

let go of what I thought was like my

3:45

personal identity and then becoming my children's

3:47

mother . It just felt like I was

3:49

losing a part of myself and

3:52

I never thought about it as a loss

3:54

and I don't know that I've ever really fully

3:56

processed it . Now that I think about it , now

3:58

that you're bringing it up , and

4:00

so I would love to talk to you about

4:02

how do you support clients through

4:04

a grieving process with

4:06

a living loss . Does the grieving process

4:09

of a living loss feel and look

4:11

similar to the grieving process

4:13

of a death ? It ?

4:14

does . I mean , grief is grief

4:16

and we can't really

4:18

categorize it as one is worse

4:20

than the other . Necessarily . It

4:22

may be subjectively for you

4:24

one is worse than the other , but we can't

4:27

compare our grief to somebody else's grief . So

4:29

I may experience

4:32

a death of a family member and

4:35

it can be hard , but I can

4:37

get through it okay . I've made peace

4:39

with that , I've grieved the process of it somehow

4:41

and I can be okay

4:44

with that , even though I miss that person greatly

4:46

. And then somebody else may go

4:48

into retirement , like we were talking about , and

4:50

grieve that profoundly and

4:53

that can be so much more of a big

4:56

impact on their overall life . So

4:58

we can't really compare grief

5:01

stories . You know , like everybody's

5:03

grief is subjective and I think that how

5:05

we move through it is very individual . We

5:07

have these like what we've

5:09

known as , like these stages of grief

5:12

right , like anger and resentment and acceptance

5:15

and all of these things , but

5:17

it doesn't really matter and

5:19

actually those Elizabeth Kubler-Ross

5:21

is the one who is the

5:24

person who wrote

5:26

about the stages of grief and

5:28

those were actually meant to be for

5:30

the person who is dying , the stages

5:32

that the person who is dying goes through , not

5:34

the person who is grieving the person who

5:37

died . So our process on the outside

5:39

is very different . It's very much kind

5:42

of a roller coaster , you know , and

5:44

we can experience joy and

5:46

sadness and anger and frustration , and

5:48

there's no rhyme or reason to it . But

5:51

our society puts expectations on

5:53

us that it should look a certain way , and

5:55

that's where we start turning that in on

5:58

ourselves and go , oh , I'm doing this wrong

6:00

, oh , I shouldn't still be sad . You

6:02

know the idea that , like , even with a death

6:05

, after the funeral , a lot of times people are like

6:07

, oh , you're not back to normal yet , like

6:10

no , this just happened and

6:13

this is a big loss , you

6:15

know . So I think it's so subjective

6:19

, again , right , like every person's

6:21

experience is different .

6:22

Yeah , I remember , after my

6:24

father passed , actually I had been dating somebody

6:27

and it had been probably

6:29

only maybe like a month or

6:31

two after he passed

6:33

and I was really , really

6:36

struggling , like I think that I was

6:38

undiagnosed , like depressed , and

6:41

I remember talking to him on the phone and he

6:43

essentially said to me what you just said , which

6:45

was when are you going to get over

6:48

this ? Because I'm tired of listening to it and

6:50

I was like , excuse me , like my whole

6:52

world just got turned upside

6:54

down . Of course , I'm not

6:56

over it yet . This was somebody that was a

6:58

part of my whole life from the time I was born

7:01

. Like it was an upheaval and

7:03

it felt very dismissive . And

7:06

so you know , I know with a lot of

7:08

my clients . They

7:11

get out of toxic relationships and

7:14

they have similar experiences where

7:16

friends and family are

7:18

asking them questions like well

7:20

, you need to stop talking about this relationship

7:22

that you got out of . It's time to move on

7:25

. When are you going to start dating ? It's

7:27

time to meet someone new . You just need to meet someone

7:29

new and then you'll be fine . And

7:31

obviously , as someone who's coaching

7:34

in this space , it's very frustrating

7:36

, because I know that they need

7:38

the time to grieve

7:41

that relationship and

7:43

even if , you know , sometimes

7:45

we are and this can apply to a death

7:47

of someone who's passed , who maybe was sick , we

7:49

can consciously reconcile

7:52

in our minds why it

7:54

was a good thing for this person

7:56

, right ? Maybe , if they were sick , it's

7:58

well , now they're out of pain

8:00

, now they're no longer suffering . And

8:03

likewise with this toxic relationship , it's

8:05

like , okay , well , this relationship ended and

8:07

I'm better off for it , and

8:10

it's healthier for me to not be

8:12

subjected to this toxicity

8:14

and this terrible dynamic

8:16

that I was a part of for so long , and

8:19

maybe people do feel like a weight has been lifted off

8:21

their shoulders as a result . But

8:24

on the flip side , a lot of times

8:26

we don't recognize that we need

8:28

to take the time to process the

8:30

ending of something that had

8:33

been significant in our lives

8:35

.

8:36

Yeah , absolutely , and I think the

8:38

difference that you're talking about is the logical

8:41

, analytical side of our brain that says this

8:43

was the right decision , but

8:45

then the emotional side of us still

8:48

has to catch up and process that , and

8:50

that's the space that we need

8:52

and we have to talk about it . Most

8:55

people have to talk about it and

8:58

like with a depth . The same thing can happen with a

9:00

relationship . The ending happens and you need

9:02

to process it , you need to talk about it , you

9:04

need to understand it , you need to wrap your

9:07

mind around it and come to acceptance

9:09

with the emotions that you have , because

9:12

even if you were the one to end that relationship

9:14

, there can still be grief

9:16

, and I think that that is one

9:18

thing that people don't understand . It's like

9:20

this was a bad relationship . You

9:23

are better off outside of this relationship

9:25

. You can move on and find a new

9:27

relationship that will be healthier , but you

9:30

still had a bond with that person . There

9:32

was still something that you saw in that person that

9:35

brought you together , and I don't

9:37

think that anyone person is ever just one

9:39

thing , so we can't say that is a bad

9:41

person and they are entirely bad . There

9:44

were elements that drew you to them and

9:47

we can honor those elements and recognize

9:49

that this was not the right relationship

9:51

for me . This was not a healthy

9:53

relationship and I'm sad that I lost the part

9:56

of this person that I was so connected

9:58

to .

9:59

Yeah , because there's history , there's memories

10:01

, there's good times and , yeah , there's

10:03

bad times too , but it's

10:05

all part of it and hopefully

10:07

you know , when

10:10

we're in a relationship , my

10:13

hope is that we learn something

10:15

from that relationship . So

10:17

there are gifts , even if

10:20

your inner relationship is not healthy , because

10:22

you've likely discovered something about yourself

10:24

that you didn't know before and

10:26

you had to kind of go through that experience in order to

10:29

understand what that was , and so you

10:31

know . It's hard to just say it's

10:33

done , it's over , let me wipe my hands clean

10:35

and walk away and now I'm fine and I'm

10:37

ready to move on . What I often

10:40

find is that women , when they haven't processed

10:42

this grief of the

10:44

relationship ending , they look

10:46

for the next distraction and

10:49

get themselves into another relationship

10:52

and end up repeating a

10:55

lot of the patterns of behavior

10:57

that they had exhibited

10:59

or experienced in their previous

11:01

relationship . So what are some

11:03

tools and tips we can give

11:06

people to help them move

11:08

through this grieving process ? And

11:10

obviously , for everyone it's going

11:12

to be at a different rate , right ? Because we're all different

11:14

, our nervous systems are different , the way we

11:16

process emotions is different , but

11:19

what are some of the things that we can

11:21

begin to do to help us heal

11:23

and recover and grieve the

11:25

ending of a relationship or

11:27

a living loss .

11:29

Yeah , well , like

11:31

you said , it's different for every person , so depending

11:33

on where you're at , but I think that one of the

11:35

biggest things is to recognize the

11:38

both and right , like we were just

11:40

talking about . This was not right

11:42

for me , and I appreciate

11:44

this other aspect of it . And

11:47

so separating that into

11:49

both things can exist at the same time

11:51

, and understanding that not having

11:53

to polarize it like it's either good or it's

11:55

bad , you know , really allows us

11:57

to be in that space and open up to

12:00

what our feelings actually are . And

12:03

then , I think , also taking stock

12:05

of what are the secondary losses . So

12:07

secondary losses are the things that are

12:10

effects of the

12:12

initial loss . So in a relationship

12:14

, we often lose friends

12:16

, we lose community , we lose family

12:19

. You know , we have bonded with that person's

12:21

family a lot of times , and now we don't have

12:23

that in our lives . We lose our

12:26

home , sometimes we lose so

12:29

much in our environment that we

12:31

have to acknowledge those things too , and

12:33

so sometimes , even just sitting down and writing

12:35

out a list of like these are all of the things that

12:37

I lost . Oh my gosh , I understand why

12:39

I feel so bad right now . It's

12:42

not just this relationship that maybe

12:44

wasn't good , but all of these other

12:46

things as well .

12:48

Yeah , that's such an

12:50

important point .

12:51

And I will say , even in a relationship

12:53

where the people

12:56

both respect one another

12:59

and they just recognize like this is

13:01

not a relationship

13:03

that's working for us . We're not getting out of it what

13:05

we want . We respect each other , but

13:07

this is not working for us . There's

13:09

something different out there for us that is more

13:12

aligned . There's still grief in that

13:14

too . So not

13:16

judging the grief , not judging

13:18

if it's appropriate , not judging if

13:20

it's warranted , because what

13:22

you feel is what you feel .

13:24

Yeah , I just imagine like one of the other

13:27

feelings that maybe people might feel , which we

13:29

didn't mention , which could also be guilt . Yes

13:32

, and I know that even when

13:35

someone that we love passes , we

13:37

can sometimes have that survivor guilt as

13:39

well , depending on the circumstances , of course

13:42

. So that's

13:44

an interesting thing to kind of I

13:46

don't know , just popped in my head . I was like , wow , I think I need to mention

13:48

this because I don't know that

13:50

many people associate guilt necessarily

13:53

with grief or the grieving process

13:55

.

13:56

Yeah , guilt is a big one that's

13:58

associated with it , because we always think like , well

14:01

, if I just done this

14:03

, then this other thing wouldn't

14:05

have happened . Or if

14:07

I weren't here's

14:10

another one if I weren't selfish , I

14:12

wouldn't want something more . Right Now

14:15

I feel guilty that I'm being selfish because it's about me

14:17

and me not getting what I want . If I'm leaving

14:19

a relationship , maybe that's good , like

14:22

it's good , right , like there's nothing bad about

14:24

it . It's just not aligned . So

14:28

there's a lot of ways that grief can show , or

14:30

guilt can show up in grief . And

14:32

I'm curious for you , like what are

14:35

those areas that you see ?

14:37

Yeah , I would definitely say that there

14:39

can be a lot of guilt , and the guilt is usually what keeps

14:42

people in those relationships for longer

14:44

than they probably should be , and

14:46

typically it's when children are involved

14:48

. There's the guilt that I'm

14:50

going to break up . You know , there's a lot of conditioning

14:52

around , like what a happy family looks like

14:55

or what a happy

14:57

home looks like , and so there's a lot of guilt

14:59

of I don't want to have my children

15:01

come from a broken home , right

15:04

? Or I feel like I'm

15:06

being selfish to your point for

15:08

choosing to get out of this relationship

15:10

and the impact it will have

15:12

on my children or on my family

15:14

, and so there's definitely

15:17

a lot of that . And so a

15:19

lot of people try to justify that by

15:21

jumping into another relationship right away

15:23

to prove . It's almost like they're trying to

15:25

prove that they can

15:28

number one , get something that's healthy and

15:30

find someone else that's , you know , going

15:33

to fill the holes

15:35

or fix the problems or

15:37

be a better replacement

15:40

, in some ways , for the toxic partner

15:42

that they were with , and to

15:44

prove to everyone else that they were justified in

15:46

that decision , which is an interesting thing

15:48

, because I don't know that that's very conscious

15:50

. It's more of a subconscious kind of

15:52

motivation , underlying motivation , and

15:54

so it's interesting . So you see that a lot , and

15:57

then typically what will happen

15:59

is that

16:01

relationship that they may have jumped into

16:03

right after getting out of a relationship

16:05

that they didn't process or grieve , it

16:08

all hits them like a ton of bricks

16:11

. When that relationship then

16:13

ends right , the conciliatory

16:16

relationship or the rebound relationship

16:18

ends it becomes a

16:20

grieving process of not just that

16:23

rebound relationship but it becomes a

16:25

compounded grieving process , because now they have

16:27

to also process the loss of

16:29

that primary

16:31

or toxic relationship that they were in beforehand

16:34

. And

16:36

I will say that I personally can

16:39

attest to the fact that I used

16:41

to trapeze from relationship to relationship

16:43

before I got married , and

16:46

I don't know that I ever processed the

16:48

ending of those relationships

16:50

and then when it finally caught up to me , it

16:52

did feel very overwhelming

16:55

.

16:57

Yeah , and taking that time to

16:59

grieve , whatever that looks like for

17:01

you , maybe it's a week , maybe it's a year

17:03

, maybe it's three years , there's

17:05

no set time on it

17:07

. But I think that when

17:11

we do that work to turn inward and

17:13

say what am I feeling ? That

17:15

is true for me and kind of shout

17:17

out the world , our family

17:20

, our friends that are saying just move on , just get over

17:22

it . When we can sit with those

17:24

feelings , we can actually move

17:26

through them a lot faster . And

17:28

then we don't take that baggage

17:31

of whatever happened in that last

17:33

relationship necessarily into the

17:35

next one yeah , there's

17:37

probably some of that that still comes in , right , but

17:39

because there's always new opportunities

17:41

to learn and grow . But I

17:43

think that we lessen a lot of that

17:45

that we bring in and we repeat the same patterns

17:48

.

17:49

Yes . So now with the secondary

17:52

losses , I'm just wondering if

17:54

you can talk to that piece a little

17:56

bit more , Because

17:58

I feel like sometimes maybe you

18:01

tell me you would know better than I do , but I kind of feel like

18:03

we might be more

18:05

aware of those

18:07

losses because they

18:09

feel a little bit more . I

18:12

don't want to say tangible , but it's almost like if

18:14

you're losing friends or you're

18:16

losing your home right

18:19

, those are things that are kind of out of your control , so you

18:21

can sort of either rationalize

18:23

, deal with or process maybe the secondary

18:26

losses first

18:28

or eat more easily than

18:31

the primary . I don't even know I'm not sure

18:33

if I'm asking my question correctly , but it just feels

18:35

like there's almost like forced

18:38

to face the secondary losses first

18:41

before you can process

18:43

.

18:43

Yeah , and I don't know that it's

18:46

necessarily true that you are forced to

18:48

deal with them , because I think a lot of times people just

18:50

move on right , like

18:53

, oh , I need to find a new place to live , oh

18:55

, I'm not , I don't get to be

18:57

with these people anymore , and they're upset

18:59

about it , but they don't really grieve it . It's

19:02

more like frustration , anger

19:05

, you know , and it kind of stops

19:07

there a lot of times and

19:09

then it's like I want you to choose me

19:12

or this other person , and so

19:14

then that puts the friends in

19:16

a weird position of like now I have to choose

19:19

, which creates other issues

19:21

within all the relationships . So

19:23

I think that you know , with

19:25

the secondary losses , it's still moving

19:28

through that same process , but I think it's

19:31

first we have to recognize what they are and

19:35

I think that there's so much of it that's unconscious

19:37

because we don't see it as a loss , like

19:39

something to grieve in our society

19:41

. We see it as a consequence

19:44

of our actions . Right , like well

19:47

, you chose this , so now this is the consequence

19:49

you don't get to have these friends or you don't get to live in this

19:51

house , so you made

19:53

your choice . Right , like that's kind of the message

19:55

that's given , but that's

19:58

not really fair .

20:00

Yeah , that seems really unsupportive .

20:02

Yeah Well , and a lot

20:04

of what we see in our society

20:07

is that , like , we feel uncomfortable

20:09

with grief , we feel uncomfortable

20:11

when you are sad , we feel uncomfortable

20:13

when you want to talk about your feelings for

20:16

the 5,000th time , right

20:18

, like it's okay . And

20:22

we usually find a point where our friends and

20:24

family go , okay , aren't you done

20:26

? And so that's where reaching

20:28

out to a coach or a therapist or somebody

20:30

who can help you process those feelings

20:32

and thoughts can be really helpful and

20:35

hold that space for you so you can just feel

20:37

all the things . Because a lot of times we

20:39

hold back and we say , well , I don't want to put

20:41

all of this on you , but I'm still trying to process

20:43

it , so like it

20:45

still comes out , but you don't get

20:47

the full effect of processing it effectively

20:49

.

20:50

Yeah , and then what I see a lot of times with

20:52

my clients is they just completely shut down

20:54

, they go into a free state

20:56

or they look to things

20:58

to numb themselves from actually

21:01

feeling their emotions because , like

21:03

I said , it can be very overwhelming . And

21:06

so when they come

21:08

to me , a lot of times we have to do a lot of work

21:10

around getting them out

21:13

of that free state that feels safe

21:16

because it's very familiar to

21:18

them . They're dissociated

21:20

, and when you're dissociated it's like you're not feeling

21:22

your emotions . That's what's happening . And

21:25

so we have to do a lot of work with their nervous system

21:27

to make them feel safe again

21:29

, so that they can process

21:32

the emotions , they can feel the emotions

21:34

and allow them to be expressed in

21:37

whatever way is most comfortable

21:39

for them . And

21:41

it can be a process and it can take time , and

21:44

so what I would

21:46

love to just kind of say is that don't

21:49

let anyone else pressure you to

21:52

move through your process

21:54

any sooner than you're able to

21:56

, and you might be constricted by

21:58

the flexibility of your nervous system to do that

22:01

, because if you try to do it too

22:03

fast , too soon , you're

22:06

going to end up back in that freeze state . You're going to end

22:08

up back in that dissociated

22:10

, not feeling , my feeling state because

22:12

you have to survive

22:14

, you have to get through the day , right . You kind

22:16

of go back into that zombie mode

22:19

of I'm just going to ignore and stuff

22:21

down all of these emotions because they're too much

22:23

, so that I can just get through

22:25

the next hour , the next two

22:28

hours , the next day and a half , whatever

22:30

it might be . That's

22:33

not the right way to go about this . When

22:37

you're working with clients , I imagine

22:39

that you're allowing them as much time

22:41

as they need to talk about how

22:43

they're feeling without feeling

22:45

judged or feeling like they can't

22:48

share and express what they are going

22:50

through , and they don't have to filter it , which

22:53

is beautiful . I

22:55

love that you're doing this .

22:58

In fact , a grief coaching session is

23:00

so different than a life coaching session . For

23:03

me , it's about just holding that sacred

23:05

space for you to feel and

23:08

process whatever it is . There's no agenda

23:10

on my end . It's not like with

23:12

life coaching . It's like by the end of this session I want

23:14

to be here . No , it's like what is

23:17

here . That's really the key

23:19

. It's like what is here . Then

23:21

let's sit with it , let's

23:23

feel it In your body . What does it feel

23:25

like ? If you're comfortable going there Not everybody

23:28

is , and that's okay . I'm never going to push anybody

23:30

beyond where they're comfortable going , because

23:33

the client is always in control how

23:39

do we just be in that ? What

23:42

I find is a lot of clients that

23:44

I see for grief coaching . I

23:47

don't know if this is just a lack of mind to pull

23:49

this out of people , but I get a lot

23:51

of anger expressed . I'm

23:54

like , yeah , let's get in this , let's

23:56

feel it , let's move it through

23:59

our bodies , because if you hold that anger in your

24:01

body , what it does

24:03

to your nervous system , you are

24:05

stuck . That's

24:07

not a healthy place to be . We can't feel

24:10

safe to move through those emotions . Let's

24:12

move all of this anger and this energy . That's

24:17

a big part of what I see happening is

24:19

that people don't feel safe to express

24:21

the anger and the frustration

24:23

. They stuff it , they hold it down and

24:25

they say it's not polite , it's not okay , nobody

24:28

wants to hear this , I'm going to

24:30

be considered irrational

24:32

or erratic or too

24:34

emotional . They

24:37

come into my session . I'm like let's get it all

24:39

out here . Let's just lay it on the table

24:41

and see what is here , because once

24:43

we admit that we feel angry , oh

24:46

man , we can move through that so much easier .

24:48

Yeah . Do you find with your clients

24:50

, though , that the anger oftentimes is masking something

24:52

underneath that they're too scared to look at

24:54

?

24:56

It's usually like , I

24:58

think , there's an element of disempowerment

25:01

. We're

25:03

feeling like we have no choice , we're

25:07

feeling like we can't express ourselves

25:09

or we're feeling like somebody else was

25:11

in control of our life . It's

25:15

about first acknowledging

25:18

it , recognizing it , moving it

25:20

and then deciding how do I take that power

25:22

back ? How do I bring

25:24

that power back to myself ? How do I cut those

25:26

cords of energy that I am leaking

25:28

out into these other people I've had relationships

25:31

with that I'm still angry about .

25:33

Yeah , yes , I

25:37

think that for the women that I deal with , there's

25:39

a lot of repressed anger , for

25:41

sure , 100% , because

25:44

I think , especially as women , we're taught that

25:46

anger is not ladylike

25:48

, it's not polite , you need to be kind

25:51

, you need to be the good girl , and

25:53

it can feel like it's an unsafe

25:56

like you said , an unsafe emotion

25:58

to express .

26:01

Yeah , I think that sometimes

26:03

, when we have that much anger

26:06

or frustration within us , we're afraid

26:08

to open it up because it feels

26:10

so big . What will happen if

26:12

I let this go ?

26:14

It's that idea that if

26:16

I can stuff it down , I'm controlling

26:19

it in some way . And if I let it all out , that

26:22

uncertainty , the unknown

26:24

of like well , now I'm going to be out of control

26:27

, can be really scary . It's

26:29

that fear of the uncertainty , the fear of

26:31

the unknown , the fear of what if

26:33

I lose control , then what

26:35

happens ?

26:37

Yeah , Well , it's kind of like holding

26:39

a beach ball under the

26:42

water Right , like at some point

26:44

it's going to pop out of the water Like you can't hold

26:46

it forever .

26:47

Yes , absolutely . It's

26:51

interesting that you mentioned beach ball , because one of the things that

26:53

my mentor talks about a lot with just

26:55

trauma in general , is

26:57

that , or just even stress , we

27:00

all have a swimming pool that

27:02

is filled with beach balls and

27:05

depending on how big our

27:07

swimming pool is , or how big the

27:09

beach balls are well , depending on how much we can actually hold

27:11

what we're capable of holding

27:14

within us right , how much stress can we handle

27:16

, how much adversity

27:19

can our nervous system take on

27:21

at a given time without kind of snapping

27:23

, you know , without the pool overflowing

27:26

, without the balls all popping or falling

27:28

onto the ground and losing control

27:30

? And so , you know

27:32

, there's this idea that , like because

27:35

this is something that I want to say is that if you

27:37

are going through a

27:39

living loss and someone

27:41

else you know is going through something similar , don't

27:44

compare yourself to how that other person is processing

27:47

it , because they might have fewer beach

27:49

balls in their swimming pool than you do , so

27:51

they might have a greater capacity

27:53

to handle it . But don't make

27:55

yourself wrong for struggling

27:58

. Don't make yourself wrong for not being

28:00

quote unquote over it . Yet .

28:03

And I think the other side to this is , like with

28:06

our friends and family , with

28:09

these living losses . How

28:11

do they support us ? Like , if we are on

28:13

the other side of it , if we are the one watching

28:16

somebody go through this breakup , what can we do to

28:19

support them ? Right , we can

28:21

check in on them and asking

28:23

questions like how are you

28:26

doing ? It's such a loaded question

28:28

, right , it's such a big like

28:30

, oh my gosh , now I have to like figure

28:33

this out to tell you and censor

28:35

it so that I'm not overwhelming you

28:37

with my feelings and my thoughts

28:39

and all of this . But sometimes

28:41

it's just that check in of like hey

28:43

, I was thinking about you and if you

28:45

want to talk , I'm here . You want to grab coffee sometime

28:48

, I'm available , or you

28:50

know , just that offer and that

28:52

recognition like I see you , I see

28:54

that you're going through something and

28:56

I'm here if you need me , I think

28:58

is a really important piece , rather than

29:00

like how are you today ? Are

29:03

you feeling better ? You know , like then

29:05

we feel like we have to mask and we have to

29:08

like make it neat and tidy

29:10

so it's not too much for the other person

29:12

, and now we are caretaking them .

29:14

Right , right . Or

29:16

we feel like we're going to be a burden if we do share too much

29:18

, and then they're going to have to console

29:21

us . And what if we put them in a position where

29:23

they don't know the right thing to say and then we make

29:25

them uncomfortable ? You know , especially this

29:27

is coming for me , as the recovering people , please , are

29:29

always worrying about how everyone else is feeling .

29:34

And so when you reach out , just saying like you don't

29:36

need to respond , but if you

29:38

want to , I'm here , right , like

29:40

setting that expectation , like I'm just checking

29:42

on you , I'm letting you know I'm thinking of you , but you

29:44

don't have to reply to me . Don't

29:47

feel that pressure , like I know you're in the middle of something

29:49

big .

29:50

Yeah , so is there something that

29:52

we can do in terms of even like self care

29:54

to support ourselves in this Cause

29:56

? You know , something else that I'm thinking about is that , especially

29:59

as being a recovering people please are , it can be really hard

30:01

to even ask for the support when we do need

30:03

it , and so the

30:06

grieving process can feel very

30:08

isolating in that experience

30:10

where you're not able to ask for the support

30:13

or seek out the support

30:15

that you need . So what

30:17

are the ways in which we can kind of help

30:19

ourselves understand that we're

30:21

not too much , that we're not a burden ?

30:25

You know , I think the most normalizing thing

30:27

in grief is to

30:29

be around other people in grief

30:31

. So there

30:34

are lots of grief groups out there that you can

30:36

participate in , and you're

30:39

not even necessarily expected

30:41

to like

30:43

speak at them . Sometimes you just go

30:45

to be around other people who

30:48

are going through

30:50

something similar or maybe something different and

30:52

you get to see like , oh , this

30:54

feeling that I have , somebody else feels

30:57

that too , and this is a very normal

30:59

process . And so I think

31:01

the more we talk about it , the

31:03

more we expose ourselves to

31:06

the grief process and understanding that

31:08

it's okay to grieve

31:10

the things that we've lost , even if they aren't

31:12

deaf , the more we

31:14

normalize it for everybody .

31:16

Yeah , I love that . I

31:18

definitely feel like there's a lot of

31:20

power in healing

31:22

as a group . I feel like sometimes it

31:24

can catalyze more

31:27

healing when

31:31

you're doing it with other people and you feel

31:33

, even if it's unspoken

31:36

, support because you have

31:38

something in common and you know

31:40

that these other people might understand what

31:43

you're experiencing , whether they're

31:46

at the beginning of their grieving journey , the

31:49

middle of their grieving journey or the end . And

31:51

I don't know if there's even ever an end

31:53

to any kind of healing journey . To

31:55

begin with , no , and

31:57

grief and grief .

31:59

Grief isn't like the end

32:02

of grief , is not a destination , it's

32:05

just a relationship . It's another relationship

32:07

that we have and that relationship

32:10

changes over time , so

32:12

that initial grief is so raw

32:15

and so intense but over

32:17

time our relationship to it can

32:19

change and it lessens an intensity

32:22

. It can still be there . We

32:24

can still feel that loss

32:26

, but it doesn't have to overwhelm

32:28

us .

32:30

I love that . Now

32:32

I know that you are also an EFT

32:34

practitioner because you and I tapped together

32:37

. And so I'm wondering if you're bringing

32:39

that into your sessions as well , because obviously

32:42

you and I know that when

32:44

we tap on our emotions and the things that we're

32:46

feeling , it allows us to release

32:48

them and to process them . And

32:51

I'm wondering if you're using those in your sessions

32:53

, because I think that that's a unique modality

32:57

that maybe you're bringing into your sessions

32:59

, your grief sessions .

33:01

I do , but only

33:04

when it feels really appropriate

33:06

and I have permission to do it . So a

33:08

lot of times we just talk . But

33:11

if there's an opportunity where it's like

33:13

this feels really stuck and

33:16

I'm wondering if you'd want to tap on this

33:18

to try and move it and we do

33:20

Oftentimes it's just like a

33:23

round or two of it moves

33:25

so much . I

33:28

think in grief it can be so overwhelming that

33:30

there's so much there that if we

33:32

spent an hour tapping together it would

33:34

be exhausted and just overwhelmed

33:36

by it . But if you can hit that point

33:38

where you find the

33:41

piece in that session and

33:43

tap on that , so much can move and

33:45

then when I see people come back in the next session they're

33:48

lighter . So much has shifted and changed

33:50

. Tapping

33:53

doesn't erase the memory , it

33:55

doesn't make it go away , but it changes

33:57

our emotional charge to it . We

34:00

recognize and we come into acceptance

34:02

with seeing what is . I

34:04

am angry that this relationship

34:07

ended and when we tap on that it normalizes

34:09

that feeling for us .

34:12

Yes , absolutely . I

34:14

love that and it allows us to almost

34:16

I think it's like get

34:18

a little bit closer to the emotion in

34:20

a way that feels safe , by just

34:23

speaking it out loud of I am angry

34:25

, or not even I am angry because

34:27

you don't want to identify with your emotions . I

34:29

feel angry . There's

34:31

a lot of anger that's coming up and I'm not sure what to

34:33

do with it . You know .

34:35

Yeah and see , even I get caught in that trap

34:37

of like I am and it's

34:40

such an ingrained pattern that we all have

34:42

to work to shift that . Yes , absolutely

34:44

. I feel angry that this happened and that

34:47

is a huge mindset

34:49

shift .

34:50

Yes , I think , even in our relationships

34:52

, because we can tell people that they

34:54

made us feel some way and

34:56

that's not actually true , because no one can make

34:59

you feel anything . Your emotions

35:01

come from some sort

35:03

of perception around , some

35:05

experience that you're having and what

35:07

you think it might mean about you potentially .

35:10

Yeah , it's like a defense mechanism

35:12

. Like you are making me this

35:15

Right , like , no , I am feeling

35:17

this . And like , if I can recognize that

35:19

I'm feeling this , then what does it mean ? Where does it

35:21

come from ? Like then we can figure

35:23

out what needs to shift .

35:25

Yes , absolutely 100%

35:27

. So , April , is

35:29

there anything else that I haven't , we haven't talked

35:31

about , that you love to kind of mention and bring

35:33

up and share with the listeners

35:35

?

35:38

I think we covered most of it in

35:41

like a broad aspect , you know , I think that

35:43

just normalizing , talking

35:45

about grief , and that grief isn't

35:47

just death , I think that is the biggest

35:49

thing . Like relationships

35:51

, we have grief , whether they end on

35:54

a good note or a bad note . Like

35:56

there's grief there , there's a loss , and

35:58

all of these losses add

36:00

up when we don't consciously

36:03

grieve them . We start pulling

36:05

around the U-Haul full of emotional boxes

36:08

that eventually will

36:10

take over , right , we're going to get run over by it

36:12

, and so if we consciously

36:14

grieve these things , then we can lighten

36:17

everything that we are carrying around

36:20

and are open to so

36:22

much more . So new relationships

36:24

and healthy , positive relationships

36:27

, changing those patterns that weren't working , you

36:29

know .

36:30

Yeah , I just had an image in my head

36:32

as you were speaking . When we don't allow ourselves to

36:34

grieve the loss of our relationship

36:37

, what we can sometimes do

36:39

is close off our heart , and

36:42

the way that we learn to kind of get

36:45

through and survive is by

36:47

finding some other distraction , away

36:49

from that pain that we're concealing

36:52

and that we're protecting ourselves from . And

36:55

when we allow ourselves that time , that grace

36:57

, that space to

36:59

process those emotions and let those walls

37:01

come down , we can open

37:03

our heart and the type of relationships

37:06

that we can attract and create

37:08

can be healthy and

37:10

deeply meaningful when

37:12

we can open our heart fully to

37:15

receiving , to feeling

37:18

, to expressing everything

37:20

that's come up for us . So

37:22

I love how you just described all of that

37:24

. I think that's really helpful .

37:27

Yeah , and I think actually there's one piece

37:29

that we didn't talk about now that

37:31

I'm listening to you say that and that is the

37:33

gratitude . Like , where can

37:35

we find the gratitude for the good

37:38

parts of what we had ? So , not everything

37:40

is loss and grief , but

37:42

what were the good things to ? How can you learn

37:44

to appreciate that part of the

37:46

experience ? What did you learn from it ? What

37:48

did you appreciate about this person ? And

37:51

not just see this person as

37:53

a negative influence in your life , because

37:55

there was something , like we said in the beginning , that attracted

37:57

you to this person or that you liked

38:00

about this person . And I'm not saying you

38:02

have to get there right away , but it's an important

38:04

part of the process of finding

38:07

the gratitude for what

38:09

you received from it as well .

38:12

Yes , and I'd also kind of like

38:14

to piggyback off of that and say that

38:16

forgiveness needs

38:18

to be a little bit a part of this journey too . Because

38:21

, to your point

38:23

and this is something that I've noticed even in my own life

38:25

is that when we first start recognizing

38:27

that we're in a relationship that we need to get out of , there

38:30

can be a lot of anger and resentment

38:32

like we shared , and there can

38:34

be a lot of even finger pointing of it's the

38:36

other person's fault , the other person's fault . And

38:39

then when we get out , it feels like we have

38:41

a release of that resentment in

38:43

some way , because now we've ended it and we

38:45

don't have to face it anymore on a daily basis

38:47

. We can sometimes actually even internalize

38:50

that resentment to ourselves , depending

38:52

there's multiple situations into how that can happen . But

38:56

the point is is that as we further

38:58

along in the grieving process and in the

39:00

healing process , we can actually

39:02

look back on these people

39:04

that we know are not healthy for us

39:06

and see them for who they are

39:08

. We can see that perhaps some

39:11

of their behaviors that hurt us were

39:13

coming from their own deep wounds

39:15

and insecurities , and

39:17

we can then learn to

39:19

look at them with

39:21

compassion , we can then

39:24

forgive what happened

39:26

. And in forgiving them , we can also

39:28

forgive ourselves for our role in

39:30

that relationship too , because we

39:33

have to come to terms with the fact that relationships

39:35

take two people and a

39:38

relationship is not going to end purely because

39:40

of one person's actions . It's

39:42

gonna be both of you in that

39:45

relationship that are responsible for getting to

39:47

where you got to in that relationship and what

39:49

you've created . So that

39:52

forgiveness piece , that even that self-forgiveness

39:54

piece , can liberate

39:57

you from a lot of , I think , anger

39:59

and resentment if you

40:01

allow yourself to feel the gratitude

40:04

and if you allow yourself to learn

40:06

how to love yourself and

40:08

self-accept your role

40:10

in the ending of that relationship

40:13

, which is hard .

40:15

Yeah , when we hold on to that

40:17

anger and frustration and

40:20

we don't forgive

40:22

, I think that we

40:24

keep that

40:26

tether , that connection to that person

40:28

longer and longer and

40:31

it prevents us from moving forward . And

40:34

I think that the forgiveness part

40:36

is such a big piece , like you said .

40:39

Yeah , yes

40:41

, and the forgiveness is for you , not for the

40:43

other person , right ? That's

40:46

the thing that people forget about . They're like I don't wanna forgive

40:48

him or her or whoever they did

40:50

all these things and I'm like but the forgiveness is

40:52

for you , it's for your peace , it's for

40:55

your wellbeing .

40:57

Right . What is it costing you to hold that resentment

40:59

for so long ? That's exhausting

41:02

, it really is . I've

41:05

been on the end of holding

41:07

that resentment before and it

41:09

is exhausting and you find yourself

41:12

being negative or bitter or

41:14

just unpleasant to be around

41:16

because you want so badly for

41:18

that person to recognize like their role

41:20

and to say that they're sorry and

41:23

you might not ever get that .

41:25

No .

41:26

You know you can't control the

41:28

other person , but you can control how much energy

41:30

you're willing to put into a relationship

41:33

that isn't even in existence anymore

41:35

. Really , yes , so

41:37

save that energy for yourself and use it

41:39

for working on

41:41

yourself and moving this energy and creating

41:43

something new and better .

41:45

Yes , and I think that that is the perfect

41:47

note to end on , because that was a beautiful message

41:49

. April , thank you

41:51

so much for coming on and having this conversation

41:54

with me . Everyone , if you

41:56

are looking for someone to help support you with

41:58

a loss , whether it's a living loss or

42:00

someone that has passed please feel free

42:02

to reach out to April . We're gonna have all of her contact

42:04

information in the show notes and I'd

42:06

love for you to connect with her because I think she's an amazing

42:09

person in general , but also she can

42:11

help you through what can feel like a very

42:13

overwhelming and difficult time . Thanks

42:15

, april , thank you . Until

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next week , everyone , be well . If

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you're hearing this message , that means

42:22

you've listened all the way to the end , and

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for that I am truly grateful . If

42:27

you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable

42:29

, would you mind leaving us a review wherever you listen

42:31

to podcasts and sharing it with others ? If

42:34

you'd like to connect with me for one-on-one coaching or

42:36

human design reading , you can find me on

42:38

my website or on social media . Also

42:41

, if you have a topic you'd like me to discuss on a future

42:43

episode , please DM me . Be

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sure to tune in next week for another episode of

42:48

Stepping into Meaningful Relationships .