0:09

Welcome to the Stepping Into Meaningful Relationships

0:11

podcast . I'm your host , carissa

0:14

Stepp . I'm a relationship and

0:16

human design coach , and this podcast

0:18

is designed to help you create a stronger

0:20

connection to yourself so you can

0:22

transform the relationships around you

0:25

, whether that be with your partner , a friend , a

0:27

parent , a child or your business . We

0:30

will be looking at relationships through the lens of

0:32

human design , and my guests and I

0:34

will bring you the tools , tips and tricks

0:36

to create deeply meaningful connections with

0:38

others . But first let's

0:40

start with you . The most important

0:42

relationship you have is the one with yourself . Thank

0:45

you for tuning in . Now let's get to today's

0:47

episode . Hey

0:51

, hey everyone . Welcome back to another

0:54

episode of Stepping Into Meaningful Relationships

0:56

. I'm your host , carissa Stepp . We're

0:58

going to be having an incredible conversation today with

1:00

Jennifer Parker , whose eyes were open

1:02

to intimate partner abuse when she had an internship

1:05

with a domestic abuse shelter in 1982

1:07

. She was inspired to become a therapist

1:09

, obtaining her master's degree from

1:12

the University of Wisconsin-Madison in 1986

1:14

. Jennifer specialized in working

1:17

with intimate partner abuse survivors and

1:19

developed a curriculum of materials the clients

1:21

found empowering . She was

1:23

inspired then by their resilience to

1:25

write the book Coercive Relationships

1:28

Find the Answers you Seek , so

1:30

that she could reach more survivors and

1:32

those who care about them . Jennifer

1:34

currently publishes a monthly blog and

1:36

presents workshops to therapists and other

1:39

professionals regarding effective therapy . Her

1:41

work vision is to promote understanding of coercive

1:44

control , reduce the isolation victims'

1:46

feel and shift society toward

1:48

respectful relationships . Jennifer

1:51

, thank you so much for being here with me today

1:53

.

1:54

Thank you so much for having me . I'm really excited

1:56

to have this conversation . I

2:00

really liked that in

2:03

listening to some of your podcasts that you

2:05

also tell people the most important

2:07

relationship is with yourself . I

2:10

used to tell that to clients all the time . So

2:13

I really respect your work .

2:15

Thank you so much . That means a lot to me

2:17

. So I just wanted to say

2:19

to listeners who are listening right now we're

2:21

going to be talking about , I would say , somewhat

2:24

of a sensitive topic . We're going to be talking a lot about

2:26

coercive control and

2:28

for some of you , you may actually find

2:30

this discussion a little bit triggering , because

2:33

you may recognize

2:35

that perhaps maybe you're in a relationship

2:38

with someone who is coercively

2:40

controlling you , and so what I'd like to say

2:43

is , if you're listening to this

2:45

, I would choose a

2:47

time , if not right now , to find a nice

2:49

, quiet and safe space

2:51

to listen , maybe not

2:54

around your children . I would also

2:56

suggest , perhaps , that maybe you're not driving

2:58

a moving vehicle , because , again , you might

3:00

actually feel some activation

3:02

in your body and we want you to obviously

3:05

be very safe . So , jennifer

3:07

, with that being said , would

3:10

you tell us what

3:12

your definition is of coercive control

3:15

, so that listeners can better understand what we're talking

3:17

about today ?

3:19

Sure , and I really appreciate

3:21

that you did give that kind of trigger warning

3:23

. That's very great . So coercive

3:25

control is a consistent behavior

3:28

or consistent behavior . So it is a

3:31

one-time thing . It's a consistent

3:33

pattern of behavior that establishes

3:36

domination and a relationship

3:38

and that's based on

3:40

techniques

3:42

that induce fear in the person

3:45

, dependency , and

3:48

that deprive them of their civil rights

3:50

, their basic rights to

3:53

live their lives , to make choices

3:55

and so forth . So that's what coercive

3:57

control is , and

3:59

in my book I have an extensive

4:02

list of coercive control behaviors . A

4:04

lot of times people say I'm

4:06

not sure , is it really abuse

4:09

, especially if maybe they grew up with some of that behavior

4:11

. So

4:13

it's a way to check a checklist

4:16

in terms of answering that question

4:18

for people .

4:19

Yeah , so for

4:21

me , one of the things that I always say is

4:23

that abusers

4:25

in general , it's usually all about control

4:27

for them . So when we talk

4:30

about coercive control , can we say

4:32

that that's likely the foundation

4:34

for most types of people

4:37

who are abusive , that

4:40

most of them are coercive controllers in some way

4:42

?

4:43

Yes , definitely , coercive

4:45

control includes physical abuse , certainly

4:47

, but it includes all kinds of

4:49

emotional , mental , spiritual

4:52

abuse that often is harder

4:54

for people to identify .

4:56

Yeah , absolutely for sure , and

4:58

so I know . Even for me , when I started

5:00

understanding what emotional abuse

5:03

was and spiritual abuse and all of that

5:05

, I didn't even realize or recognize

5:08

that that's what was happening in the relationship

5:10

. So I

5:12

guess maybe where I'd like to start is

5:14

what are some of the traits

5:16

or characteristics or

5:19

beliefs , or even core wounds of

5:21

someone who might use

5:23

coercive control in their relationships

5:25

?

5:26

That's a great question . So some

5:29

beliefs that I include in my

5:31

book that really are endemic

5:34

to all coercive relationships and

5:36

I want to include other types

5:39

of relationships , such as you can

5:41

run into coercive control in

5:43

organizations , people

5:46

besides a personal relationship

5:48

, but there are kind of four basic beliefs

5:50

that underlie their behavior

5:52

. First of all , they believe

5:55

that there's a small

5:57

amount of power and therefore they have

5:59

to be jealous of that power . It's

6:01

finite and therefore they

6:04

really have a difficulty tolerating

6:06

someone else expressing power

6:08

, and I'm talking about even the power

6:10

that we each should have as

6:13

people to express our own opinions

6:15

and so forth , to do things our

6:18

own way . And then all

6:20

of these beliefs , by the way , kind of support

6:22

one another . And then they also believe

6:25

that in order to be powerful

6:27

, power has to come using

6:29

power over others . There's

6:32

not really a they don't

6:35

give . They don't understand power

6:37

within , first of all , because

6:39

that's very important and I know that you talk

6:41

about that with other people developing that

6:44

, reinforcing that . But

6:46

also shared power , that whole concept

6:48

they don't understand . An

6:51

example would be one

6:53

time I knew somebody , I was in a relationship

6:56

with somebody and it

6:58

either had to be his way or he felt

7:00

like he was being abused

7:03

, he had to give in , and so there could be no

7:05

conversation like , oh , I'm thinking

7:07

about it this way and

7:11

how you can have conversations and

7:14

eventually maybe you're taking one position but it's

7:16

like , oh , this is really important , I'm

7:18

willing to give on that particular

7:20

thing . It can't happen if

7:22

you believe that you have to have power over

7:24

someone to be okay . And then

7:26

a third belief has to do with all

7:29

the differences , therefore , are threatening . So

7:31

if you feel or say or do

7:34

things that are different from

7:36

them , then they feel threatened by that

7:39

. And then the fourth

7:41

one that all of this leads to is

7:43

that some people have greater worth than

7:45

others , and in a personal relationship

7:48

that translates to being I'm entitled

7:50

to get my way all the time

7:52

and your rights do not

7:55

. I don't recognize

7:57

your rights , it's like they're not important

7:59

. So those are kind of the four basic

8:01

beliefs that really permit

8:05

people to use any form of

8:07

coercive control , whether that's devaluing

8:10

the person , whether that's

8:12

constantly criticizing

8:14

them , minimizing

8:17

, denying , twisting

8:19

what you're saying and , of course , certainly

8:22

physical ways

8:25

that people coercively control as well .

8:27

Yeah so .

8:28

I answer your question .

8:29

You did answer my question and , as you were

8:31

speaking , what I was thinking about

8:33

was , obviously I talk

8:35

a lot about narcissistic abuse and

8:38

I know that you did mention in the book that

8:40

there are some personality disorders

8:42

that where

8:45

a course of control could be

8:48

, or some of the beliefs behind

8:50

coercive control could also be things that

8:52

maybe a narcissist or someone with a

8:55

histrionic or a borderline personality disorder

8:57

might also believe . And

8:59

so , as you're talking , the thing that I'm thinking about and

9:02

of course I tend to take everything through

9:04

like a trauma-informed lens is

9:06

wow , these people have had

9:08

and experienced a lot of trauma

9:11

that led them to feel so

9:13

deeply insecure that

9:15

the only way that they could feel like they were

9:18

valuable or important is

9:20

by using these manipulative

9:23

tactics or these controlling

9:26

ways in order to feel like they

9:28

are more powerful . They are actually important

9:31

, basically to get their power needs , their control needs

9:33

and even like their love ability needs

9:35

met .

9:38

And it's so unfortunate because it really

9:41

works against them in the long run . Usually

9:44

, and

9:46

a lot of times , people

9:49

who have been victimized may

9:52

get confused because it's like , well , I know

9:54

they came from such a terrible background

9:56

, you know they have this experience and that experience

9:59

. And what's important for them

10:01

to know is , yes , and

10:03

many times victims have come from similar

10:05

types of backgrounds . It is a choice

10:08

about and you can make choices

10:10

. Even if you've learned abusive

10:13

behavior , you can make choices to

10:15

not go in that direction , and

10:17

so seeing it as a choice is very

10:20

, very important in terms of people being able

10:22

to heal themselves

10:24

and kind of move forth out

10:28

of coercive , controlling relationships .

10:30

Right . So I guess , just

10:33

to kind of boil it down , it's like they're choosing

10:35

to be abusive , or they're choosing to

10:38

abusively react

10:40

, maybe in situations .

10:42

Well , it may not feel like a choice

10:44

in the beginning , but the issue

10:46

is , if they're faced with that

10:49

, if they're hearing I'm not okay

10:51

with this or someone is trying

10:53

to hold them accountable and they refuse

10:56

to change . That's the choice .

10:58

Right , okay , gotcha . So

11:01

it's even like with the narcissist . We talk about how

11:03

they just don't take accountability for

11:06

their actions , and it's kind of the same thing . You

11:08

can't make a change or

11:10

make an amend or do

11:13

anything to work on

11:16

yourself if you're not willing to

11:18

first accept and acknowledge

11:21

and take accountability .

11:23

Yes .

11:24

Yes . So I'd love

11:26

to talk about how these relationships

11:28

begin , because , again , I think that

11:30

a lot of people don't really

11:33

realize that they're in this type of relationship

11:36

until some time has gone by , because it's not

11:38

like you would meet someone and

11:41

end up in a coercive relationship with them if

11:43

, from the get-go , they were being

11:45

controlling in any kind of way .

11:47

Right , Right , right . I

11:50

often had people that I worked with say you know , I wish

11:53

that they had it on their foreheads , because they

11:55

often don't trust themselves to recognize

11:57

it when it happens . And actually the

12:00

first coercive control roadblocks

12:02

the first one

12:05

is about seduction , because there can be

12:07

very , very subtle kinds

12:09

of things , so , like some of them can

12:11

be , if somebody

12:13

wants , has to spend all their time with

12:15

you , well , of course , when we're we

12:18

initially start to fall in love with someone

12:20

, it's very normal to want to spend a lot of time

12:22

together . But I'm talking

12:24

about it's like they have to and

12:26

they don't accept the

12:28

fact that perhaps you have friends

12:30

or family or something else that you want to do

12:32

without them . If they have few friends

12:35

of that's

12:37

assuming , of the

12:39

opposite sex or the same sex

12:42

, if they're in a heterosexual

12:44

, if they have few friends of the same sex and

12:47

they really show a dependency

12:50

, that's something to pick up on , because

12:52

those kinds of things , if it is , if they are

12:54

going to be coercively controlling , it's only going

12:56

to get worse over time , not

12:59

being interested . This is

13:01

kind of a double edged one . So sometimes

13:03

they aren't , they don't show really much

13:05

interest in what your , your

13:07

interest are on what you're doing

13:10

in your life , on what your feeling is . It's

13:12

all about them . On

13:14

the other hand , sometimes it begins

13:16

that they are super interested and super

13:18

involved and they really become

13:21

a little bit more intrusive and it's hard to

13:23

pick up on it first . So

13:25

it can take both , both forms

13:27

. Certainly

13:29

, pay attention if , when , when

13:32

you say no to someone , that

13:34

they really have trouble taking that as an answer

13:36

, that they don't want to accept it , that they

13:39

may , you know , argue with it or

13:41

put it down or pout or

13:43

things like that , if

13:45

they're making agreements with you , you think

13:47

you've made an agreement and then somehow they conveniently

13:50

forget it or they

13:52

deny that they ever did it , that's certainly

13:54

something to pick up on as well . There

13:59

are many , many , many more I could go

14:01

into , but one of the things that happens

14:03

early in a relationship is , you know , we give the

14:05

benefit of the doubt . That's a healthy relationship

14:08

skill , by the way , not

14:10

to just turn your back on someone because

14:12

there's one instance of something , but

14:15

what we have to do is be , you

14:17

know , be curious and interested . It's like okay

14:19

, what is this about ? And begin to

14:22

ask them . Some healthy communication

14:24

skills can be asking questions

14:27

when you're concerned about something early

14:29

in the relationship , you know getting

14:32

more answers about that . A

14:34

story that I can tell about a relationship

14:37

that I had one time was I was having

14:39

some big concerns and

14:41

you know we were

14:43

having arguments about it because

14:46

I was a strong person being able to stand

14:48

up to them . And so one time , when we weren't

14:50

in an argument , I said you know , it seems as if

14:52

you seem to think that

14:56

you always know best for people , and

14:59

it didn't even make it just about me that

15:01

pretty much your opinion is always the best

15:03

one . And that person

15:06

said yes , they

15:08

didn't realize what they were saying yes to , but

15:10

that was kind of the beginning of the end of that

15:12

relationship for me , or

15:14

not the beginning , but it was kind of the final

15:17

, final step in terms of

15:19

, okay , if somebody really believes

15:21

that and they're unwilling to give that up , not

15:24

a good , not a good healthy relationship

15:26

for me .

15:27

Right , because it seems like this type of

15:29

person would not have any

15:31

sort of ability

15:34

to recognize other people's needs

15:36

or that their other people's needs are just

15:38

as important as theirs . Because

15:41

when you're in a relationship where you're trying to control

15:43

everything , it's like no , like my needs

15:45

are more important . How I think , or what

15:47

I believe is more important

15:49

, right , and that's sort of like that entitlement belief

15:52

that you were mentioning earlier . So that

15:54

completely makes sense to me . And

15:56

then when you're talking about , like you know , paying attention to

15:58

whether or not they respect your nose

16:01

, it's like okay , so , someone who's not good with boundaries

16:03

, that's a very big thing . But

16:06

what I also thought about was when

16:08

you were talking about how , sometimes early

16:11

on in these relationships , they want to spend a lot of time

16:13

with you and that can be like a normal thing Well

16:16

, I was also thinking about , well , codependence might

16:18

also be very willing to give up their

16:20

interests , their friends , you know , time with

16:22

their family to spend time with someone

16:24

new in their life , because they

16:26

also get , you know , their validation

16:29

, their approval , their needs for love and

16:31

attention met in the relationship very

16:33

early on , when there is a lot of attention

16:35

usually being bestowed upon you

16:37

by this other person . So you

16:40

know , I'm thinking to myself like , okay

16:42

, so , and I say this , I

16:44

say this a lot and you've not heard me say this , but

16:46

I believe that and

16:48

I keep bringing this back to narcissism because that's just what I'm

16:50

most familiar with , but

16:53

I think they're very relevant , which is all

16:55

narcissists are also codependent and

16:58

narcissistic codependents are very much attracted

17:00

to each other . So it seems to me like

17:02

codependents are probably almost like the prime

17:04

target for coerced

17:07

of relations . You know of people who would end up in

17:09

these coercive relationships .

17:12

Many times that is a vulnerability

17:14

and in my book one of the sections

17:16

of the book really looks at different

17:19

roads of vulnerability for people and

17:22

one of them is certainly if you've learned

17:25

that in order to be an okay person

17:27

, to have good self-esteem , you

17:29

have to be submissive to others

17:31

, whatever they , you can't disagree , you

17:33

can't say no , etc . Then that's a real vulnerability

17:36

for this type of relationship and

17:38

certainly they do often kind of look for that

17:41

. If early in a relationship the person is

17:43

setting more boundaries than they like , then

17:45

they might lose interest .

17:47

Right , right , that

17:49

makes so much sense . And then the

17:52

other thing that I thought of when you were

17:54

talking about like pay attention to whether or not they

17:56

actually are interested in your interests

17:58

, or like in your day and what's going on in

18:00

your life . The other thing that I have

18:02

found personally , when I've been in a

18:05

coercive relationship , what I noticed was

18:07

the relationship was very superficial

18:09

, like they never asked me questions about

18:11

you know , whether it was my childhood

18:13

or my favorite , you know , vacation

18:16

memory that I had , or you know , there was

18:18

no interest really in who , how

18:21

I became who I was or even who I

18:23

was , and so the

18:25

interests were . You know , maybe there

18:27

was some conversation around what

18:29

my interests were , because that still seemed

18:31

somewhat superficial . It's like , well , how do you spend

18:33

your day outside of going to work

18:35

? But that's not really indicative

18:38

of who someone really is . So it felt

18:40

like really superficial . And

18:43

it wasn't until years later when I realized

18:45

like , oh my gosh , like I want actually a more

18:47

deeper , more intimate connection with

18:49

someone who actually knows who I am and

18:52

who doesn't throw around these

18:54

blanket statements as if you know , I'm

18:56

someone else that they've perceived

18:59

me to be . That's not who I am , because they never

19:01

really got to know me to begin with . Does

19:03

that make sense ?

19:04

Oh , it definitely makes sense and it definitely

19:07

is characteristic of many people

19:09

who use coercive control . However

19:11

, I will also say that one

19:13

of the things that can trick people

19:15

is that maybe they express lots

19:18

of interest in you early on and

19:20

it's just like , oh , this really wowing

19:23

you and what's the

19:25

expression love bombing

19:27

? You know a lot of things , but it really sort

19:29

of convinces you they really are interested in you . But

19:32

later on , slowly but surely

19:34

, it becomes all about them and they

19:36

stop that you know they

19:40

don't take your rights or your

19:42

choices seriously . So

19:44

it can go both ways .

19:46

Or I think sometimes they try to get

19:48

to know you so well so that you feel safe

19:51

and comfortable to share your vulnerabilities . Which

19:53

they then use against you later

19:55

on , and they'll actually continue

19:57

to find ways to just sort

20:00

of dig deeper into those insecurities

20:02

to make you feel less than more

20:05

so than you may already do . So you lose your

20:07

sense of self-worth , maybe even your sense

20:09

of self , because they're constantly just like digging

20:12

away or , as I call it , sometimes like

20:14

the death by a thousand paper cuts , because it

20:16

might happen so subtly that you don't even recognize

20:18

it .

20:19

I can think of a good example of that , an anonymous

20:22

example of someone

20:24

who came in for therapy because

20:27

their partner said that they

20:29

really had issues of

20:31

being an adult child

20:34

of an alcoholic , which was true that

20:36

they did grow up in an alcoholic home , but

20:39

they were using that in

20:41

order to convince them that they should give in

20:43

to all of you know , anything

20:47

that they wanted , including sexuality

20:50

. So yeah , Wow .

20:53

Well , I guess that makes sense

20:55

to me , even when I think about it , like I said about the codependence

20:58

who might be targets for this type

21:00

of relationship , because I think a

21:03

lot of people who fall into codependency

21:05

and I'm speaking more towards people

21:07

who probably have more people pleasing type of

21:09

behaviors that come up tend to be

21:11

very empathic

21:14

. And so when you can see

21:16

, you know , you hear that

21:18

sad , tragic story of this

21:20

other person , of what they've experienced

21:22

whether it was growing up with the alcoholic parent

21:25

or some other kind of childhood

21:27

trauma that they experienced a

21:29

lot of times that empathy then gets

21:31

used against you because at first you

21:33

might use that as a way to make excuses

21:35

for the abusive behavior of oh well

21:37

, you know he's had these bad experiences

21:39

and that's why he's treating me this way , and

21:42

maybe even the abuser is , like you said , just

21:44

pointing and blaming that

21:46

past experience for the reason why maybe

21:48

they blew up in a conversation or why

21:50

they got emotionally , you know , dysregulated

21:53

in a moment and said really hurtful things

21:55

, and so that can

21:57

end up being used against us . Because

21:59

we start using , we start making excuses Right

22:02

, that empathy becomes almost like the engine

22:05

that drives all the excuses of

22:07

that behavior .

22:09

Yes , yes , definitely

22:11

. You've really put your finger on

22:13

something that's important because the

22:15

strength of empathy empathy is a very

22:18

important communication skill . However

22:21

, it can be used against you , and

22:23

so it's very important to really

22:25

work on having good , sound boundaries

22:27

, it's like , and you can be

22:29

empathic about their background

22:32

and what happened to them without and

22:34

still be able to set boundaries with

22:37

. I'm not okay with what you're doing now

22:39

. This choice , you know

22:41

, doesn't agree with me . It feels like , you know

22:43

, it's not loving or whatever it is

22:45

, and that that you

22:47

know . Especially if somebody has learned

22:50

I've picked up on the

22:52

term of over-carrying , instead

22:54

of using co-dependence quite as much , which

22:56

I got from a heart math solution I

22:58

don't know if you've ever heard of that yes , but

23:01

if somebody's been taught to just

23:03

focus their , their attention

23:05

on taking care of others to the to

23:07

the detriment of themselves . You

23:10

know , caring for others is great , hey

23:12

, therapist and other people like us right

23:14

, that's part of what we do , but

23:17

there needs to be a boundary in terms of it's

23:19

not it's not hurting

23:22

yourself , in order to do that

23:24

.

23:25

Yeah , I love that over-carrying instead of co-dependent

23:27

, because it really does capture it so much

23:29

more , I don't know , in a way that

23:31

doesn't feel like it has such a stigma

23:33

attached to it . You know , because

23:36

it's true , co-dependence tend to over-care

23:38

, end up self-sacrificing and even self-abandoning

23:41

, and that's truly

23:43

an issue . But someone who

23:47

, whose motivation

23:49

is just to control and to dominate

23:51

, out of these beliefs

23:53

of you know entitlement and you

23:55

know this need to feel important or more important

23:58

than other people , unfortunately

24:00

, that's going to leave them so susceptible because

24:02

they're already abandoning themselves . They're already

24:05

so willing to give up their

24:07

rights , kind of like you said right

24:10

their rights to their own opinions , their own beliefs

24:12

, their own time , even

24:14

to take care of themselves above

24:16

taking care of everyone else first . And

24:19

so what I'd love to talk about , because

24:21

I think that if we talk about this at the high level

24:23

of , like the traits of someone who's over caring

24:26

, I feel like people still

24:28

may not recognize that they're in , maybe , a

24:30

coercive relationship . I

24:32

love to just go

24:34

another level deeper , which is how

24:36

would someone be able to

24:38

identify these red flags ? But I

24:40

think , more importantly , the way someone can

24:42

maybe identify this is how they're

24:44

actually feeling in the relationship

24:47

, because , again , we can get really good at making

24:49

excuses for the actual things

24:52

that are happening in the relationship .

24:55

I think you're naming something really important yes

24:57

, paying attention to your own

24:59

emotions , your feeling

25:02

, what it feels like . If it feels like , or

25:04

you're getting feedback from others , that

25:06

somehow you're being

25:09

diminished , that you're not speaking up

25:11

for yourself as much , or

25:13

maybe you're feeling more depressed

25:15

, maybe you're feeling anxious whenever

25:17

that person , when you're around that person

25:20

or that person , comes home , paying

25:22

attention to that is really important and

25:24

being curious . It's like okay , what's going on

25:26

here ? What am I missing

25:29

something ? And

25:32

, of course , the course of controller

25:34

is apt to say oh

25:36

, this is your problem and point to whatever

25:38

it is , whether it's adult , child of alcoholic

25:41

or you're just depressed

25:43

and so forth and not take any accountability

25:45

. So

25:47

it's important to oh

25:51

, this really brings up something very important Generally

25:54

. Oftentimes people become very isolated

25:56

, even if they're working . They become

25:59

isolated from relationships in

26:01

which they can get other kinds of feedback and

26:04

which they can talk about these kinds of things

26:06

, and then that leaves

26:08

them even more vulnerable , because then

26:10

they're just getting the

26:12

opinions of the person who's abusing them

26:15

.

26:16

So it's very important to find

26:18

those people that you can trust , that

26:20

you can talk with about any concerns that

26:23

you have , who aren't going to be pushing

26:25

you into some decision or other , because

26:27

sometimes that's a concern , right

26:29

yeah you don't want to be talking

26:31

to someone who's just telling you to get out of the relationship

26:34

, because potentially it

26:36

may not be safe for you to leave the relationship

26:39

, because , as you kind of alluded

26:41

to , sometimes there can be a physical

26:43

element to all of this . There can be physical

26:45

violence , physical abuse and

26:47

even if it hasn't happened yet , if you've had

26:50

enough red flags that that could potentially

26:52

happen if you were to actually leave the relationship

26:54

. because if you think about it when

26:57

you put your foot down and you're like I'm ending this

26:59

or I'm leaving . They don't have

27:01

any kind of control , so

27:03

they might use whatever means they

27:05

can and that could even be dangerous means

27:08

to maintain that control .

27:10

Exactly and oftentimes . I

27:12

mean that is true that if someone

27:14

says that they're afraid , even though there hasn't

27:17

been physical abuse , that they're afraid that they're going

27:19

to get killed or that they're going to be armed

27:21

that way , believe them or

27:23

believe and believe yourself , because

27:26

the reason for that is you know that if you

27:28

step too far , you know

27:30

, across the boundaries of what

27:32

they said , that

27:34

you know that will happen .

27:36

Right .

27:38

And I want to just bring up that not

27:40

everyone who experiences coercive

27:42

control feels

27:45

helpless , or

27:48

that it's mixed with feeling like

27:50

, well , I'm a strong person , and

27:53

so sometimes it's hard to

27:55

understand what's going

27:57

on . And oftentimes these people also say , well

28:00

, I allow it . And

28:02

so it's important to look at what

28:04

does that mean I allow it

28:06

? Does that mean you give your permission to

28:09

be abused ? So when they , for

28:12

instance , they may be saying all kinds of things

28:14

, really having arguments of the person

28:16

about their behavior , standing

28:18

up for themselves , and

28:21

so they start to feel

28:23

like , well , I'm permitting it if I stay in the

28:25

relationship , and so it's

28:28

important to be sensitive to . I

28:31

believe that people do have

28:34

many strengths , even when they've been

28:36

victimized by this kind of behavior . They

28:39

try many things , even

28:41

looking at themselves , to see if

28:43

there is something they're doing that might be causing

28:46

. This is a strength in and of itself . It's

28:48

just that you don't want to step

28:50

into the trap of really believing what

28:52

the abuser is saying about that . So

28:56

there are many people who kind

28:58

of resist thinking that they're victims

29:01

because of that , and yet it's

29:03

the

29:05

twisting and the

29:07

constantly being in arguments and so

29:09

forth really saps

29:11

their energy and leads them to feel

29:14

in another way , kind of helpless

29:16

and hopeless yeah , hopeless about it

29:18

, especially if they're really believing , they

29:20

really have a strong belief in . I want to

29:22

be in this marriage forever . You

29:25

know which , most of us , when we start relationships

29:27

, we don't think well

29:29

, you know , for this period of time

29:31

and down the road we'll see . You

29:33

know that's just not the case .

29:35

Right , right , right . Typically we don't

29:37

do that for sure , but I

29:39

love that you brought this up , because this is something

29:41

that I've actually had talked about once before

29:43

, which is , if you identify

29:46

as someone who's highly independent

29:48

, who's strong , who's capable

29:51

, who's intelligent and I've

29:53

talked about this from my own experience I resisted

29:55

the word victim for a really

29:57

long time because I'm like I don't feel weak

29:59

, I don't feel , you know , incapable

30:01

, I don't feel like

30:04

I can't do something

30:06

about this in some way . And

30:08

I also personally and

30:10

I think that you've mentioned this even in the book I

30:13

even took responsibility , because I was

30:15

like , I stand up for myself , right

30:17

, I fight back . I don't sit here and just

30:19

take it . And so I figured

30:21

I was part of the problem , that I needed

30:23

to change something about myself

30:26

or change the way I was communicating

30:28

, which I mean I will say like most

30:30

of us have to probably do some work on the way

30:32

we communicate but I

30:34

felt like I was taking equal weight and

30:36

responsibility in the relationship

30:39

and yet , at the same time

30:41

, when I look back on it , I'm like , wait a second , no

30:44

, I was . We have this term that we talk

30:46

about a narcissistic abuse , which is reactive

30:48

abuse , right , where we

30:50

are just reacting to the abuse

30:52

, and sometimes the

30:55

perpetrator I'll

30:57

use that word because it's just easier might

30:59

be doing things to instigate

31:01

some strong emotional reaction

31:03

out of us , because then they can use that

31:06

as a way to be like , well , you're the crazy one

31:08

. Like , look at you , you can't control your emotions

31:10

, right .

31:11

Yeah , look at that . Yep , Yep , oh

31:13

boy .

31:13

You're the abusive one .

31:16

I love that you brought this up . Yes , definitely . And

31:18

then it gets you know , and then you start to

31:20

doubt yourself , right , yes , yeah .

31:24

Yeah , it causes so much confusion and doubt , and

31:26

then you know when you don't want

31:28

to take the label

31:31

on as victim , which you know . I don't know that you have to take

31:33

on that , the label of victim . However

31:36

, I think it is important to understand

31:38

that what you are experiencing is

31:41

abuse .

31:43

Yes , and what I like

31:45

to say is you have been victimized

31:48

by someone . That person

31:51

is responsible for

31:53

their behavior . Your identity

31:56

is not as a victim no , that's

31:58

not who you are but you've

32:00

endured victimizing

32:02

behavior .

32:03

I love that . I love that

32:05

that's so good . I

32:08

love that you're re-framing it as you've been victimized and not

32:10

that you are the victim and identifying with it , because

32:12

you know , I don't know that we should

32:14

be labeling people in general

32:16

. I just think that sometimes we find these terms

32:18

to sort of describe certain

32:21

other patterns of behavior or experiences

32:23

that we've had , and that's not always helpful

32:25

.

32:27

Right , right . Yeah

32:29

, I kind of want to take back that word victim

32:31

Because , yeah , it has kind of become

32:33

, it's been misused really , it's

32:36

been kind of devalued . It's

32:38

like if you're a victim , you didn't

32:40

choose to be a victim . That's not who you

32:42

are , that's what

32:44

happened to you , right , and I think

32:46

so many people ascribe shame

32:48

to it .

32:50

Right yeah , it's a shameful

32:52

word , so nobody wants to claim it

32:54

in any way . But

32:57

as long as you know to your point that

32:59

we're seeing that we're attributing the behavior

33:01

to somebody else and

33:03

that we were in an almost like

33:05

collateral damage of that behavior , then

33:09

we can kind of take a different step forward

33:11

. So what would be one

33:14

thing that you would suggest people

33:16

don't do if they recognize

33:18

that they are in a coercive relationship ? Oh

33:22

, boy , one thing I

33:24

mean , can I give you a hint ? I

33:27

can give you a hint as to what I think , and

33:29

I think you mentioned it actually in the book as well .

33:32

Well , I think you have to assess

33:34

your safety and whether or not it's safe

33:37

to speak up about it

33:39

. So maybe not , certainly

33:42

not jumping into thinking

33:45

, oh I have to leave . You

33:47

know , take your time , make a safety

33:49

plan if you need that , and I don't just

33:51

mean about physical safety , but also emotional

33:54

safety . Like how

33:56

can you pull more people into

33:58

your life that are supportive of you ? How can you

34:00

build that network back so that

34:02

if you do decide to leave , you've

34:05

got support , because it's really

34:08

it can be very trying to leave a relationship

34:10

like this . Ultimately it's

34:12

very freeing , but you go

34:14

through some really hard times usually

34:17

.

34:18

Yeah .

34:19

So what was your idea ?

34:20

Well , first I just want to comment on that , because I

34:24

know this is something that I've

34:26

had other people come to me that they've experienced

34:28

this , which is they might go

34:30

to a parent , right , their

34:32

mom , maybe , or their dad and

34:35

explain to them that this is what they're experiencing

34:37

, and sometimes that depending

34:40

on the parent . But what

34:42

I have seen happen is and

34:45

again this goes back to narcissism you have a parent that is

34:47

narcissistic and you don't realize it . It's potential

34:50

that they might give you

34:52

all the reasons as to why you should continue to

34:54

stay , because you getting out of your marriage

34:56

may be a bad reflection upon

34:58

them or it goes against some sort of religious

35:00

belief , and so they might actually

35:03

end up shaming you or blaming

35:05

you , and then that's not supportive

35:08

in this type of situation

35:10

, and a lot of times these

35:14

people , these controlling people , can

35:17

have a very different persona on the outside

35:19

than they do behind closed doors

35:21

. So , people might be like , oh my gosh

35:24

, but he's so nice or he's

35:26

so friendly , or he's such a good person , or he's such

35:28

a good dad , and they don't understand

35:30

what's happening , because you don't

35:32

have maybe those physical scars to show

35:35

the abuse , because it's happening

35:37

emotionally , psychologically , verbally

35:40

, financially , maybe , you know , sexually

35:42

, like these are all things that people are not

35:44

attuned to , and so no fault

35:46

of their own for not understanding it . But

35:49

you know , I would just like to caution everyone

35:51

to just really be careful about who it

35:53

is you open up to

35:56

, because you may not always get

35:58

the support that you're looking for , and I would

36:00

hate for you to further isolate

36:02

yourself if you were to

36:04

approach the wrong person .

36:07

I totally agree , and what

36:10

I say to people is connect

36:14

with those people that you trust and

36:16

if you find that , unfortunately , your

36:19

mom or your dad or whoever isn't

36:21

there isn't at a point where

36:24

they can , then don't keep going back to them

36:26

. Find other people , and sometimes

36:28

that means like a support group , sometimes

36:31

it starts with that , sometimes it starts with a therapist

36:33

or a coach , you know .

36:36

Yeah . So , I mean , I've even heard

36:38

stories where people are like , but what about the children

36:40

?

36:41

And they use the children as a way to guilt you into

36:43

saying oh yes , oh

36:46

yes , and

36:48

in fact , I was just going to say also that

36:50

they sometimes they try to turn family members

36:53

against you by saying negative

36:55

things about you , like painting you in such

36:57

a way that you're it's

37:00

looking like you're at fault or there's

37:02

a problem with you . But they also can do that

37:04

with children , and that is such

37:06

that causes such harm

37:08

for the children as well , as it's

37:11

the most painful thing If they succeed

37:13

in alienating a parent

37:15

from a child . It's very

37:17

, very painful for people . So

37:19

, yes , all of those things can happen .

37:21

Yeah , that parental alienation just also

37:23

. Like you said , it really hurts the children

37:26

too . To kind of overcome that , you know

37:28

, at some point when they start to recognize that's

37:30

. That's so important . I'm glad that you brought that

37:32

up . So what I was going to say is

37:34

that the one thing you maybe should not do is

37:37

I personally have seen and

37:39

witnessed and experienced that

37:41

probably the worst thing you can do with

37:44

a controlling person is go

37:46

to couples counseling .

37:48

Oh yes , Definitely

37:51

, definitely , definitely . And when I'm talking

37:54

to therapists I definitely underline this

37:56

yes , Couples counseling

37:58

and less it's part of an abuser

38:00

treatment program because

38:02

they , if they incorporate any couples

38:05

counseling- they are working on power and control

38:07

and the abuse of it . Okay , but

38:09

you know , mostly people go

38:11

to couples counseling and think

38:14

, oh , this is going to help , and

38:16

generally speaking , I think almost

38:18

100% of people I've talked to it's

38:21

really harmful . It doesn't help them at

38:23

best and it can be very

38:25

harmful because , first of all , if

38:27

they're really honest about what's going on , they often

38:30

pay the price later and

38:34

possibly then the abusive person doesn't

38:36

want to go back , so that's not helpful

38:38

anyway . But oftentimes what happens

38:41

is they keep things to themselves because they're afraid

38:43

to be honest with

38:45

what's going on , because they know they'll pay a price

38:48

. Well , no couples counselor can

38:50

work miracles when they're not even knowing

38:52

what the story is , and that's great

38:55

, oh Right .

38:57

Or like to your point , like if they do open up and start

38:59

sharing with the counselor , what's actually

39:01

happening ? what can happen is , after

39:03

the couple goes away , the abuse can

39:05

actually escalate because now the

39:07

abusers upset about you know how bad

39:09

they looked right , or they'll try to gaslight

39:12

and be like , well , that never happened . Why did you say that

39:14

? Right ? And then it just becomes

39:16

a situation where you begin to , you might

39:18

begin to , you know , face

39:20

your level of self-doubt and it might increase

39:22

that level of confusion which can keep

39:24

you stuck in the relationship longer , where

39:26

you might start to wonder like well , did I recall

39:28

that correctly ? You know , am I the one

39:31

that got it wrong . Did I not say that ? Did

39:33

he not say that , you know ? And then it becomes this

39:35

whole thing . And so , yeah , I

39:37

love that you were

39:40

talking about this , because I do think it's really important

39:42

, because a lot of people , when they're struggling in their relationships

39:44

, one of the first things they think to do is to

39:46

go to couples counseling .

39:48

Right , it's understandable

39:50

. But couples counseling

39:53

when you do couples counseling , there's

39:55

really the there's usually

39:57

the affirmation or the

39:59

assumption that there's

40:01

an equal playing ground . You know

40:03

there's not , there's not , they're not unequal

40:06

in terms of their power and it's

40:08

a give and take kind of thing . Well

40:10

, in a coercively controlling

40:12

relationship that's not the case . So

40:14

the usual methods do not work .

40:17

Or you might have the abuser

40:20

just being very performative

40:22

during the session , where they're trying

40:24

to show how wonderful , how

40:26

they're such a good partner and they're such a good father

40:29

and they're such a good son and like all these things

40:31

, that the therapist just can't

40:34

see them really for who they are , because they're not

40:36

showing up as who they authentically

40:38

are . That's all that .

40:41

Oh , yes , Absolutely . That's

40:44

another scenario . And then they may agree

40:46

to things in the session that , okay , we'll

40:48

go home and do this , but then they don't do it . That

40:51

can be a way that they begin to see

40:54

through them . But the other thing that can happen

40:56

is oftentimes they will go in if they're

40:58

wanting , if it's their idea

41:01

in particular , and they will

41:03

totally take over the whole script of

41:05

the session in terms of really painting

41:07

a picture of the person that they're victimizing

41:10

, that suddenly the therapist

41:12

is on their side , so to speak , not

41:15

that they try to take sides , but that

41:17

it really slants

41:19

the session

41:21

and that can be

41:24

, and it can be really hard for somebody to stand

41:26

up to that .

41:27

Yeah , I mean , that sounds like to me . It's like Darvo

41:29

right , deflect and reverse

41:32

the victim offender . So

41:35

the abuser goes in pretending

41:37

like they're basically the victim and

41:39

feel , because I have experiences where

41:41

they walk in and they're like well , I'm the victim here

41:43

and you guys are ganging up on me

41:45

. You know , I'm just I

41:48

just love my spouse

41:50

, you know , or I just I'm just trying to be

41:52

the best Provider or the best

41:54

partner or the best father or whatever

41:56

, and I just feel like nobody

41:59

understands what I am experiencing

42:01

and how I'm feeling , and then

42:03

the spouse that's being abused

42:06

is sitting there going . Well , we Almost

42:09

like speechless , like I don't even know how to address that

42:11

, or with because if they have a lot of , or

42:14

if they have a lot of empathy , they might

42:16

say , oh wow , we maybe you know

42:18

I have not been doing as much as good

42:20

of a job as I thought about tending to your

42:22

needs or being mindful of how you feel

42:24

, or you know . I think like , oh well , this

42:26

is my opportunity to try and fix it

42:28

by Doing more of the

42:31

things that you know they had been doing . That obviously

42:33

wasn't working and was against them .

42:35

So right , and also , and

42:37

then the other alternative is they

42:39

may express a lot of anger and you

42:41

know really , and

42:44

Perhaps and more , what might

42:47

appear to be , like you said , reactive

42:49

, like a little more aggressive , and

42:51

then the therapist

42:53

, not understanding that , does see them as

42:56

maybe a part of the problem so

42:58

it's really Really not

43:00

helpful to do couples therapy . What

43:02

is helpful ? When I did couples

43:05

therapy not

43:07

not as Treatment

43:09

for an abusive person , but when

43:11

I did couples therapy and I discovered that

43:13

that was happening I always did a three session

43:16

assessment where I met with them together

43:18

Four session , I should say

43:20

and I

43:23

met with them together and then I met with each of

43:25

them separately where I could ask

43:27

the questions that I wanted to Ask of each

43:29

of them and be more certain

43:31

that I was going to get an honest answer from

43:33

somebody . If they were being victimized and

43:36

then come back together and if they're , if

43:38

you're discovering there's course of control going

43:40

on , then you recommend Going

43:43

to separate . You know , doing individual

43:45

therapy , doing abuse or treatment and

43:47

so forth . The abuser may not

43:50

cooperate with that , but that's okay

43:52

because you know I

43:55

say it's okay , it's sad , it's

43:57

painful , but it

43:59

just means that they weren't going to choose to change

44:01

anyway right .

44:03

I was just thinking how many

44:05

abusers actually end

44:08

up agreeing to do or

44:10

to participating in abuser treatment therapy

44:12

. Because If I think about

44:14

it again , like I'm taking this from the narcissistic

44:16

kind of lens which is they're

44:19

not able to see themselves or take accountability

44:21

, so they wouldn't even identify

44:23

as the abuser . So how would they even

44:26

be like , yes , I'm signing up for that , unless

44:28

they thought that there was some , unless

44:30

they thought that there was something in it for them , meaning

44:32

that oh , if I sign up for

44:35

this program , then I can

44:37

keep my relationship because that says

44:39

something about me , or I can continue to Maintain

44:42

my control if I keep this person

44:44

in this relationship with me . So I'll

44:46

do the program quote-unquote

44:48

but maybe not actually make any

44:50

real changes .

44:52

Yeah , yes , yes , that

44:55

that often happens , yeah

44:57

.

44:58

So , jennifer , thank you so much . This has been such a great

45:00

conversation . I feel like we touched on a lot

45:02

. Is there anything else that's

45:04

important that you would like to let

45:06

the listeners know ?

45:07

I Think it's really

45:09

important for them to

45:12

Find

45:14

, if they don't already have , supportive relationships

45:16

. It's so extremely important

45:19

. We are social creatures and

45:21

we all need that . We take you

45:24

know Our affirmation from other people

45:26

, and it's much easier to keep your

45:28

point of view if you're not just

45:30

getting your abusers point of view Also

45:34

want to let people know that there's

45:37

a discount on my book coercive relationships

45:39

find the answers you seek of

45:42

25% today . So

45:44

if they are interested in taking a look at that book

45:47

, you can go to my website , read a preview

45:49

of it just to make sure and

45:51

Order the book today from

45:54

my publisher . In addition

45:56

, I want them to know about my blog . You

45:58

, if you're interested in learning more about

46:00

resources and information

46:03

that's helpful To

46:05

you or to people

46:07

that you work with , if you're a therapist or

46:10

coach , then I suggest that

46:12

you sign up for my email list .

46:14

Absolutely , and we will have all those links in the show

46:16

notes to make it easy for everyone to find

46:18

you , to connect with you , to get a copy

46:21

of the book . I definitely would highly recommend

46:23

it . I have read it and

46:25

you know that checklist is huge

46:27

. Even just walking through , you

46:30

know a lot of these things that we talked about in some more detail

46:32

. I think it'd be really helpful if you are questioning

46:34

whether or not you are in a coercive relationship

46:37

. Jennifer , thank you so much

46:39

for the work that you do in this world

46:42

for the people that you are supporting and continue

46:44

to support . It means so much

46:46

, and it's so great to know that there are

46:48

others out there who you know , who understand

46:51

this and who can support people through

46:53

recovering from it , because that's , you

46:55

know , the next step of this right . The first step is

46:57

really becoming aware and identifying that you're in

46:59

a course of relationship . But then how

47:01

do you move on thereafter , and that's

47:03

a whole journey in and of itself , and

47:05

so thank you so much .

47:08

It is , and people deserve people

47:10

to walk alongside that them

47:13

on that journey . So thank you so

47:15

much for having me .

47:16

Absolutely All right , listeners until

47:19

next time . Be well . If

47:21

you're hearing this message , that means

47:23

you've listened all the way to the end , and

47:25

for that I am truly grateful . If

47:28

you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable , would

47:30

you mind leaving us a review ? Wherever you listen to podcasts

47:33

and sharing it with others ? If

47:35

you'd like to connect with me for one-on-one coaching or

47:37

human design reading , you can find me on

47:39

my website or on social media . Also

47:42

, if you have a topic you'd like me to discuss on a future

47:44

episode , please DM me . Be

47:46

sure to tune in next week for another episode of

47:48

stepping into meaningful relationships .