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microsoft.com/AI for all. Hi

0:37

everyone and thank you for joining us for the 529th

0:40

episode of the Hollywood Reporter's Awards

0:42

Chatter podcast. I'm the host Scott

0:44

Feinberg. And for those of you

0:46

tuning in, this episode is being recorded at Chapman

0:49

University, where I'm a trustee professor, in

0:52

front of an audience of film students. When

0:55

people look back at film in 2023,

0:58

most I think will talk about Barbenheimer.

1:01

But something equally notable, I believe,

1:04

was the number of talented

1:06

and cool female filmmakers whose

1:08

films kicked absolute ass, critically

1:10

and or commercially, during the

1:12

year. Among them, Greta

1:14

Gerwig, Ava DuVernay, Emerald Fennell,

1:16

Sofia Coppola, Justine Trier, Kelly

1:19

Fremont Craig, Chloe Dumont, Nicole

1:22

Holofzner, Emma Seligman, A.V.

1:24

Rockwell, Maggie Betts, Elizabeth

1:27

Chai-Vasarely, and my guest today,

1:29

a 35-year-old Korean-Canadian playwright

1:31

turned filmmaker, whose largely

1:34

autobiographical feature directorial debut,

1:37

Past Lives, is now nominated for

1:39

the Best Picture Oscar, and whose

1:41

script for it has brought her

1:43

an Oscar nomination for Best Original

1:45

Screenplay. Picture

1:47

Magazine called Past Lives, as confident

1:50

as filmmaking debuts come, while

1:52

the Washington Post described her as

1:55

a supremely confident filmmaker of exhilarating

1:57

artistic promise, who has made

1:59

a quiet spectacular writing directing

2:01

debut. She is the

2:04

present, she is the future, and

2:06

we are privileged to say she is here

2:08

with us today. Would you

2:10

please join me in welcoming to

2:12

the Hollywood Reporter's Awards Chatter podcast

2:15

and to Chapman University, Ms. Celine

2:17

Song. Welcome,

2:38

thank you so much for coming to Chapman. Thank

2:41

you for having me. I can't please tell you

2:43

if you guys are here. It's amazing. Well

2:46

let's uh let's do your

2:49

origin story if we can. Where

2:51

were you born and raised? Which

2:53

I know is a multifaceted answer

2:56

and what did your folks do for

2:58

a living? So

3:00

my father was a

3:03

screenwriter and a film

3:05

director back in Korea

3:08

and my mother was an illustrator,

3:10

a graphic designer, and

3:12

I feel like they

3:15

were doing that work back in Korea.

3:17

Where you were born in?

3:19

Where I was born and I was

3:21

raised there until like 12-13 and then

3:23

moved to Canada and I grew

3:26

up there for about 12 or something years

3:29

and then in 2012 I moved

3:31

to 2011 actually. 2011 I

3:34

moved to New York City to

3:39

pursue my dream as a playwright. I'm gonna

3:41

stop you there because we'll get into all

3:43

that but how early on did

3:45

you display an

3:47

interest in a talent for writing?

3:49

I think it started pretty early

3:51

on right? Well I think that

3:54

when I was like very very young like

3:56

seven or something I think I wrote a poem

3:59

about how a

4:02

spider eating

4:04

a butterfly is very sad, but

4:06

also the spider has to

4:08

eat. Very profound.

4:11

And I, which I think is like at the heart to me of

4:13

everything I write, you know,

4:15

I really believe. And

4:18

I think that from there, I feel like the first time

4:20

I wrote a play is I was pretty

4:23

nerdy, I'm still pretty nerdy. And

4:25

I went to, in my

4:27

high school, there was a Latin club. And

4:30

as a part of Latin club, we used to go to

4:32

a classics conference. And one

4:34

of the competitions that you do at

4:36

a classic conference where you basically go

4:39

as your high school and

4:41

you compete with other high schools, Latin

4:43

clubs, on various

4:45

nerdy things. And

4:48

one of the things that we competed on was

4:51

a play, playwriting competition, where

4:53

we were basically asked to adapt one

4:55

of the ancient Greek or Roman myths.

4:59

And I wrote a play about Prometheus,

5:01

classic. And then

5:04

I think that was the first time I wrote

5:06

a play. Yeah, but I went to college

5:08

for psychology and I

5:10

minored in philosophy. So correct

5:13

me if I'm wrong, but I believe you were

5:15

not born Celine Song. When

5:17

and why did that become

5:19

your name, Celine Song? When

5:21

I immigrated, when I immigrated, my

5:23

name went from Haoyong Song, Song

5:26

Hyong. In Korean, Song

5:28

comes first to Celine

5:30

Song. And

5:33

why Celine? Well, because it

5:35

was a name that my whole family

5:38

liked. Yeah. Was there also,

5:40

I heard again, maybe it's

5:42

nonsense, but I mean, there is a

5:44

poster that we see in past lives.

5:48

What is that poster of? Well, it's

5:50

a French film. There's

5:53

a bit of a debate about it. It's like there

5:55

is a question. I Remember it,

5:58

that my name is sort of. Ah,

6:00

connected to sleep the own. But.

6:03

Maybe it wasn't Maybe was from the

6:05

French film. The. Legislation to

6:08

his opponent is ah Ok

6:10

so. Two thousand loan

6:12

you come to New York and

6:14

started colombia. Where.

6:16

You're going for an Ama same playwriting. As

6:19

you started their what was the

6:21

like ultimate dream a career as

6:23

a. Playwright. In New

6:25

York Yes, a career as a

6:27

playwright in your city? Yeah, And

6:30

how Just because as a question

6:32

for many aspiring artist, how did

6:34

your folks feel about that path

6:36

why thing? Because my parents are

6:38

both artists For them, it was

6:40

not such her ah wilde idea

6:43

breath and. I think the I had an extraordinary

6:45

amount of. Support around arts and also a

6:47

lot of understanding which I usually call

6:49

I guess my version of ah well

6:51

as it were your parents give you

6:54

a ton of money or sister was

6:56

I call that's still fun just that's

6:58

what I have as I don't see

7:00

eye to eye to eye with so

7:02

said he would be my version of

7:04

the trouble is great because it would

7:06

be that this like sometimes it's a

7:08

matter of like. Sent. My

7:11

parents understanding what Broadway as versus.

7:13

An Off Broadway is Er Nurses, what

7:15

a Tv show is perfectly of and

7:17

what it's like to work in these

7:19

places because I have freelance artist as

7:22

parents are So those years columbia you

7:24

have said that. I

7:26

was very much paid into an artist at

7:28

Columbia. Close going you've talked about. A

7:31

few specific professors there who

7:33

really made it. I.

7:35

Think. Particularly. Special for

7:37

you. Who are they? What was

7:40

their. Kind. Of background. And.

7:42

Is that why your. Past

7:45

sort of. Resembled. There's

7:47

or is that just coincidental? Well

7:49

I think site I the teachers

7:52

at my school that I admire.

7:54

That I learned so much from as our

7:56

first of I would say trust me who

7:58

is her. Arm. Ah,

8:00

experimental playwright who made so much it was

8:02

a lot of his work and eighties and

8:05

nineties and I he was somebody who taught

8:07

me something that I think was really hard

8:09

for everyone to learn and I think that.

8:11

It's it's hard for all of a

8:14

threat learn until we have learned at

8:16

an only way to learn this particular

8:18

less than is to get our butts

8:20

kicked in, away and what he is.

8:22

To say that he said U

8:24

S C can't have the right

8:26

something so that. Us.

8:28

A theater likes it. He cannot write something

8:30

so that people with power and money to

8:33

make it happen like that. The only thing

8:35

that you can do is to write something

8:37

that you yourself. Are so freakin'

8:39

excited about so if. I

8:41

am the number one fan of

8:43

the thing that I'm writing. That

8:45

thing is going to be something.

8:48

Or somebody likes or in some way

8:50

as long as you yourself are not

8:52

an alien. Soda was you believed

8:54

as.like well if you're human being and as

8:57

a human being your to love what you're

8:59

writing. You. The Chance.

9:01

Is that you're going to find somebody else

9:03

who's also human being's gonna like the thing

9:06

that europe. Slows one of the to

9:08

who doesn't. Want him and the other

9:10

professors and Bogart and and Booker is

9:12

sore the person who are. She's the.

9:14

Are seated Our director. Ah,

9:17

Professor and. She's sort of

9:19

taught me everything I know about

9:21

time and space because she understood

9:23

how time and space are works

9:25

in theater which is that you

9:27

can really do are so little

9:29

to our ship, the perspective of

9:32

the audience. so for example something

9:34

guys she wants to talk about

9:36

as in theater you know all

9:38

I have to do to turn

9:40

this stage in to mars is

9:42

to maybe change delight. Little.

9:44

Bit to read, And. Then one

9:46

of us to say so today on

9:49

Mars. To. The I woke up

9:51

and mars and and here I am praying

9:53

that's all you need to do to turn

9:55

the station to Mars. So something that she

9:57

would talk about often is that while the

9:59

audience or. He at the actor sees

10:01

mine and I really think that I

10:03

think about that are all the time

10:05

because. That's the fundamental part. Of

10:08

any kind of directing, actors are

10:10

actors. So. Example in past lives

10:12

when our has long and Nora

10:14

see to the for the first

10:16

time in three four year faith

10:18

and. They're. Sending and and I'm

10:20

as the square park staring at each other and

10:23

are supposed Saratoga like there. Is there

10:25

a ghost way? We. As

10:27

the audience here. Has

10:30

been encountering them yours and used

10:32

on this these two characters but

10:34

by watching these two characters spirit

10:36

each other like they miss the

10:38

hell out of each other even

10:40

their into seen city I think

10:42

that what that does as.than the

10:44

whole audience will come along on

10:46

the emotional. Journey. Of.

10:49

These two actors looking at each

10:51

other. Like. Is

10:53

what the stories about Price. So I

10:55

think that.is always the fundamental things are

10:58

for it. where it's like. No,

11:00

you don't' You know? Ah, to the

11:03

study. Like

11:05

Gov. Eliot. And. Things like that

11:07

is so you know how Like so the

11:09

Helen of Troy is the most beautiful woman

11:12

in the world. And. In theater

11:14

And I think this is true everywhere

11:16

of all acting, that's ah. To cast

11:18

Helen of Troy, you don't actually to

11:20

cast the most beautiful woman into world's

11:22

because what does that even. Me: To

11:24

customers been form and world. But. Would you

11:27

can do is to cast an actress

11:29

and every single person who is are

11:31

interacting with our who was acting with

11:33

serve was caesar onstage l of them

11:35

have to look at her. That.

11:38

She's the most beautiful woman in the

11:40

world And.woman becomes no matter how she

11:42

looks. Bright. like to see the most beautiful

11:44

woman the world. So is a story

11:47

is gonna live in the way that the after.

11:49

Ah, Is looking is isn't isn't

11:51

the gaze of the actor. So that

11:54

was something. And. Portentously so

11:56

least. Some. You start their

11:58

and twenty eleven a Columbia. You graduate

12:00

twenty fourteen. But in the middle of

12:02

that run? I guess I don't know.

12:04

That was a summer. Opportunity

12:07

or how this can tell you that you

12:09

must free to share But. As

12:12

will ring a bell for people who have

12:14

seen past lives. You. Go. Off

12:16

to a kind of the

12:18

Writers' Workshop program right arm.

12:21

What exactly was that? And in

12:24

your case, it was with a

12:26

playwright who everybody else should know

12:28

and I'll leave the rest. Yeah,

12:30

Yeah I'll I went to the Edward

12:32

Albee Foundation and are police or the

12:35

menu resonances I went to I went

12:37

to others Mcdowell there's ya know there

12:39

are a lot of artists residency sata

12:41

we could go to because part of

12:43

living in New York City and not

12:45

having a lot of room in your

12:47

apartment has they can aged? has she

12:49

can't get to have concentrated time in

12:51

a beautiful nature you we with tape

12:53

and also. Like so I would apply. To

12:55

the I I would go to,

12:58

I think that's how I usually

13:00

spend most of the summers going

13:02

to these artists residencies arm and

13:04

then. That one would have been. And

13:06

twenty. Twelve. And it was. Particularly.

13:09

Consequential, Not just because you're working with

13:11

mister who's afraid of Virginia Wilson ah,

13:13

as you story and all these things,

13:15

but. Again, if you've

13:18

seen pass loves you might not

13:20

be surprised to learn that that

13:22

I met my husband is out

13:24

a serious thought it now. And

13:27

he is also there as a writer and and

13:29

get. You.

13:33

Graduate again and twenty fourteen and go

13:35

out into the big bad world of

13:37

New York Theater. But. You. Know

13:39

some people are. Trying.

13:41

To write for Broadway some people

13:43

are trying to, you know a

13:46

little, have a kind of a

13:48

commercial driven mindset for some people.

13:50

For you though, like these and

13:53

fructose who had been such t

13:55

mentors it seems you are interested

13:58

in experimental theater. What is. The

14:00

Life of a and a writer

14:02

for experimental theater like in New

14:04

York as you found in those

14:06

early years out of school. Fly

14:08

think that once you graduate from

14:11

your crack to school for the

14:13

arts I think there is a

14:15

serious are funny reality. That we

14:17

are run into which. Is thoughts actually

14:19

are nobodies waiting for your simon

14:21

to be done. right? In

14:23

the real world's first and a real world Others

14:25

as you know, structure and all. So everyday you

14:27

just feel like a bomb right? You just feel

14:29

like to see like what is I would am

14:31

I doing today and you're like well you don't

14:33

have an assignment you don't have to, you don't

14:35

have a shop plate of show, you don't have

14:37

to do any writing, no one's asking you to

14:40

write any place and in fact that they prefer

14:42

if it didn't write a play. So they. Don't

14:44

have to read it right? So I

14:46

think that there. Is a funny kind

14:48

of a complete are disappearing of the

14:50

structure on your schooling. Die on is

14:53

completely shocking and ah sing thought I

14:55

don't know if he was true though.

14:57

Ah I was turning away from something

15:00

commercial. There was this no path towards

15:02

the commercial because the people who are

15:04

working on the commercial we're ready people

15:07

who were a their fame so part

15:09

of being a younger person who was

15:11

entering dentistry his thoughts you have to

15:13

on there may be room for like

15:16

five commercial things. Best gonna go

15:18

on Broadway and those things are being

15:20

done by. People who are are you

15:22

know? Tony. Winning. You

15:25

know, people in their sixties so. You're

15:27

not going to show up there, be like

15:29

I would like one of those jobs anyway.

15:32

So I think that the only hope you

15:34

harvest for arm. I was applying to everything.

15:36

I was writing everything and I think some

15:38

of it is. About just trying to,

15:40

ah, keep feeling like a writer.

15:43

So you are a. Form

15:45

and those days even were a good self starter

15:47

you could tell yourself to us when it to

15:49

you schedule it like I'm at a treat it

15:52

like a. Nine. To five or

15:54

something. How did you had you wind up

15:56

as productive as you were which I'm a

15:58

retired about. Next purchase you. The for a

16:00

good better part of a decade. Turning

16:03

out a lot of. Work. On.

16:06

I. Know a lot of I have a lot

16:08

of my friends are able to sort of structure

16:11

their days and to a nine to five I

16:13

am not one of them. on I think thought

16:15

oh my processes and I think that this is

16:17

sort. Of very important. Which is thought or

16:19

we all have to have that The process not

16:22

we have and the only thing that matters is

16:24

that it does result in. Or something.

16:26

but get that gets made so

16:28

it kind of doesn't matter if

16:30

you're process is not glamorous as

16:32

my process. Is certainly not glamorous

16:34

is it's my process is more

16:37

like months. And months of procrastination.

16:39

And then like one, months

16:41

of demonic writing, right? So

16:43

I will sort. Of rounds.

16:47

Was reality T V doing very.

16:49

Little hanging out with friends like

16:51

getting dinner and getting lunge and

16:54

just really. Wasting my time for

16:56

like. Five months and then

16:58

they wanted finding inspiration raid a

17:00

job. no I wouldn't even my

17:02

about that. I was sorry I

17:04

have no no I'm deserving of

17:06

very ah I'm very like to

17:08

do to the woman about time

17:10

with the i know a single

17:12

or existence for however long. It

17:14

takes until the guilt of not

17:17

having written is so strong that

17:19

that is gets me in front

17:21

of my laptop Brenda thing is

17:23

that once like but then on

17:26

the way that my process so

17:28

as a result in something is

17:30

that ah. In those

17:32

five months, I'm tinkering with. Something

17:35

that's about like. Somewhere. Between

17:37

five to ten pages of. The. New thing

17:39

that I'll eventually right and I don't know what

17:41

it is yet, but I'm just working on to

17:43

say five paces of dialogue that I'm pretending to

17:45

be looking out. For like six months.

17:48

And. Then I think that usually. ah.

17:51

Yes, the guilt as a bit of a joke but

17:54

the guilt or something or the deadline the i have

17:56

to set for myself which is that like i just

17:58

need to finish before i go and do this or

18:00

something and then whatever

18:02

it is, it does get me to crack the

18:04

thing that is the 5 to 10

18:07

pages and then from there I am

18:09

able to write in

18:12

a demon state which is

18:14

that I become kind of like

18:17

not eating, not sleeping,

18:21

fiend who is

18:23

in front of a laptop just going

18:25

at it until it's done, right? And it usually

18:27

takes about like a month, yeah. I

18:30

want to mention the names of a few of the

18:33

productions that you made

18:35

during those years and

18:38

if you don't mind sharing the closest thing

18:40

to a log line just so people have

18:42

an idea of what some of these were,

18:45

The Feast, this was I think about 2015

18:47

into 2016. It's

18:50

a play about cannibalism. It's

18:53

a play where it's

18:56

a dinner party and everybody is just waiting

18:58

for a dinner to arrive but at the

19:00

same time they are waiting for the

19:03

hostess' husband to arrive and

19:05

over time you realize that in

19:09

this world that this dinner

19:11

party is happening there is no meat and

19:14

they say it's okay but they really would like

19:16

to eat some meat and then what

19:18

they realize is that in their desperation for meat

19:21

eventually when the hostess' husband arrives

19:24

at the dinner a

19:27

little bit late they eat him. That's

19:31

that play. Okay that was

19:33

one. First play I've

19:35

ever written. Beautiful.

19:38

Tom and Eliza 2016. This

19:41

play is about book burning. It's

19:44

about this couple and

19:48

the while the husband

19:51

is trying to write a book and

19:53

failing deeply deeply the

19:56

wife is a librarian who is

19:59

burning books. and eventually libraries, it becomes

20:01

a bit of a revolutionary for burning

20:04

books. Yeah. Now

20:07

that, I believe, at one point was intended

20:09

to be your last play.

20:12

However, 2019 going into

20:14

2020 and would have potentially

20:16

gone longer had we not

20:18

had a global pandemic was

20:20

Endlings. What about it? Endlings

20:23

is about, there are

20:25

these amazing elderly pearl

20:28

divers in the southernmost

20:30

islands of South Korea.

20:34

And it's an art that is dying. It's

20:37

not an art, it's an industry that

20:39

is dying because now we can farm

20:41

seafood. And before

20:43

you could farm seafood, you actually needed

20:45

women to dive into the ocean to

20:48

get seafood out.

20:50

They would dive in and they'll pick octopus

20:52

and they would do all that. So that's how

20:54

you could get seafood. And

20:57

then, and because there's no use

21:00

in that

21:02

particular work anymore, their

21:04

whole way of living

21:07

was disappearing. So it's called Endlings.

21:10

Yeah. But the main part of it is that

21:13

as it is disappearing, the

21:17

women are also like talking

21:19

about how they

21:22

don't want this art to continue because it's

21:24

so tough on their bodies too, because

21:27

living in the ocean for that long

21:30

a day, per day, really

21:33

makes them closer to marine animals than

21:36

a person who walks. So

21:38

when they're on land, their body hurts. So

21:40

when they're underwater, their body is

21:43

comfortable. So it's about how they're like,

21:45

we don't want to make

21:47

anybody else. We don't want to make our daughters

21:50

do this work. Yeah. Now in that

21:52

show, there is also a

21:55

Korean Canadian playwright living in New

21:57

York, married to a white

21:59

husband. husband who wears a placard

22:02

that says white husband. So

22:06

that element, just as long as we're talking about

22:08

experimental theater, how did

22:10

that connect with the Hanyas? Well,

22:14

the thing is that it was, I

22:17

was working on the pages

22:19

for where it was about these

22:21

elderly women. And then I

22:24

think that something that I noticed while that was happening

22:26

was that how interested people were in those

22:28

elderly women. And I

22:31

felt really absurd living in New York

22:34

City as a playwright, one of the most

22:36

expensive places on earth, talking

22:39

about and writing about these women who

22:41

live in some of the most worthless

22:43

pieces of real estate possible. And

22:46

I think that it really was about that contradiction. And

22:49

it's about the way that these

22:51

two worlds actually coexist. And

22:55

it's all also connected to the

22:57

way that how I was

22:59

feeling about theater, where

23:02

I felt like I was the, you

23:04

know, like how so many of us in

23:06

theater were feeling like we're an endling, because it doesn't

23:09

what endling is. So the endling is

23:11

the last of a species. Sorry.

23:14

So it's like, whatever we mean by

23:16

that is because almost all

23:18

of them of one species died,

23:20

that there is only one left.

23:24

And then that last one, because it cannot procreate,

23:26

we know that that's the last

23:28

of it. And as

23:31

that is happening, you

23:33

know, like that

23:36

animal still has to continue living. Right.

23:40

So I think that that's something that

23:42

I felt like was really connected to

23:44

the way that we

23:48

were all feeling in theater and

23:50

also the way that

23:52

those hens felt about their work. You know,

23:55

they're the last of their kind. Why

23:57

for you were you it seems

23:59

like like growing

24:01

away from the theater and also

24:03

beginning to think about film. I

24:06

think from the beginning, past

24:08

lives was, it could theoretically have been

24:10

a play if you

24:12

approached it in a certain way, but you

24:14

always seems like we're thinking of that as

24:16

a film and in

24:19

terms of moving towards film away from

24:21

theater. What was the

24:23

main thing kind of moving you in that

24:26

direction? Well, I

24:28

think that before film, I was

24:30

actually staffed on a TV show.

24:33

So I mean, I think that should really say so

24:35

much about, like some of it was as simple as

24:37

a financial. Right. Yeah. Because

24:40

it was, how hard was it? I mean, with like...

24:43

It was, we couldn't make money. So yeah. Yeah.

24:45

I mean, we did a whole, I would do

24:47

a whole play in a city and it would

24:49

be a premier in that city and it'd

24:52

be a wonderful production. I would love doing it, but

24:54

they would pay me $500 for the whole run. Right.

24:58

I think you guys are shocked by this. This is

25:00

real. This is what happens. And it's

25:03

like, and of course, but it's always mixed

25:05

with like feeling of like, yeah, but it's

25:07

amazing that this play gets done. And

25:10

I know that that theater cannot give me

25:12

more. So it's not like they're hoarding it

25:14

so that I can't get paid. It's the

25:16

kind of business theater is. And

25:21

I was so lucky, I felt so lucky that they're doing

25:23

the play and I was very

25:26

grateful, but there was just no way that

25:28

I could pay rent doing it. And so

25:30

that's where, as you reference Wheel of Time,

25:32

this Amazon show you start on, I

25:35

think probably during early

25:37

days of pandemic or even

25:39

maybe before the pandemic. I

25:41

did it before. I was doing it as

25:43

Endlings was actually being performed in Boston. That's

25:46

when I was doing it. And while I was

25:49

a staff writer on Wheel of

25:51

Time is when I wrote past lives too. It's

25:54

like kind of happened to the similar. And also,

25:56

and then just one thing I have to

25:58

note because I think it's... shows that

26:01

even lockdown could not repress creativity.

26:04

Can you share, this one is

26:06

still hard

26:08

to wrap my head around, what was your, can

26:12

you describe your interpretation of Chekhov's

26:14

The Seagull? Yeah. So

26:18

during the pandemic, my theater that was

26:20

doing Endlings and we had to shut

26:22

down after we opened.

26:25

So Endlings, the New York premier

26:28

opened March 9th, 2020, you

26:31

know, and then two days later

26:33

we had to shut down. And

26:36

I think that when that was

26:38

happening, I was so heartbroken, mainly

26:40

because, as you know, so because

26:42

the play was about Hennya, it

26:44

was about like elderly Asian American

26:47

women. And I think that I

26:49

knew that some of them were maybe not

26:51

when the play comes back on, maybe they

26:53

won't get to do the play again.

26:55

So I think that to me was the most heartbreaking thing

26:58

because their work was so beautiful. And I

27:00

just was so upset that not enough people are going to

27:02

get to see it. But then I realized that we had

27:04

to shut down because COVID was real.

27:08

Which at the time I was like, this is not

27:10

real, it's a cold, you know. And then I was

27:12

like, oh, no, no, it is real. I'm so sorry. People

27:15

are dying. So I mean,

27:17

which I think is a kind of a journey that

27:19

a lot of us went through, right? We're like, I

27:21

think we're like, how serious is this? And then you're

27:23

like, oh, wow, it's very serious. But

27:26

so I think, well, that was

27:28

happening. And then once that happened,

27:31

the theater that was doing the

27:33

New York premier, they

27:35

asked me if I wanted to

27:37

do a play, a virtual play.

27:40

And I was like, I

27:43

would like to not do a Zoom play

27:45

because I had seen some of them and

27:47

I just could see what the challenges were

27:49

because it was just like technically just so

27:51

challenging. And I was like, I

27:53

would like to not do that. And as I was

27:55

explaining why I wouldn't want to do a Zoom play,

27:57

I started to think about it. to

28:00

pitch them this idea because because

28:02

I was watching a lot of

28:05

video game streams you know I was watching

28:07

a lot of streamers because of the lockdown

28:09

so because of that I

28:11

actually told them that I would like

28:13

to do a twitch stream of

28:16

me playing Sims 4 and doing a

28:19

performance of the seagull

28:32

of the seagull the check off play and

28:34

the reason why I mean the reason why is that

28:36

seagull and why it's check off is because I always

28:38

felt that Sims 4 was

28:40

a very chakovian video game right it's

28:43

about living it's about the pain of living right

28:45

it's about like I guess I have to go

28:47

to the bathroom you know I woke

28:50

up today I just have to eat something like it's very you

28:52

know so I think because

28:54

of that I was like well I always

28:57

felt like it was chakovian so I should

28:59

do a check off play and then the

29:02

seagull is my favorite play of check offs and

29:04

also there is an amazing piece of dialogue about

29:06

new forms and I think

29:08

that really interested me so I

29:10

I know I was explaining that

29:12

I was gonna do it I actually formulated

29:14

it as I was talking about it and

29:16

then I was gonna be two nights and

29:19

I did it for four hours each

29:21

so it was a little bit of a durational performance

29:25

and what I really loved best was that

29:28

there were in the audience which

29:31

is the of course the viewers the the

29:33

audience was people who

29:35

don't know check off but only know video games

29:38

people who only know check off and

29:40

don't know video games and people like

29:42

me who know both check off and

29:44

video games and it was such

29:46

an amazing thing because it resulted in so

29:49

many questions and a lot of memes

29:51

and a lot of really good jokes

29:53

in the chat the chat stream there

29:55

were so many good jokes Like

29:58

the chat streams were like. Was the

30:00

art of it because there are so

30:02

many ah it's it's you know, lot

30:04

of dramaturgy and a lot of to

30:07

coffee and jokes about. Any of

30:09

that, he was so good. Ever Asia and. Parallel

30:11

to this. Enterprise

30:14

was. The

30:16

development of test flights. And

30:19

so because. It's

30:21

such a rare treat to get to

30:23

have You know so maker. As.

30:26

Relatively close in age as you

30:28

are to the students because. The.

30:31

Goal of everyone I think is get

30:33

that first some under their belt. I

30:35

wonder if we can just break down

30:37

the the process of bed of how

30:39

this came about. So I mean. Writing

30:42

sites on the page if you don't have that.

30:45

Not. Going anywhere you had this. I

30:47

guess you're thinking what is the.

30:50

Story. That. I.

30:52

Can maybe a while I don't want

30:54

of the where's Your Mouth? How did

30:56

you decide that The Sorry wanted to

30:58

build your first screenplay around? Was.

31:01

The one that you

31:03

did and how close

31:05

to. Real events.

31:08

Was that. Screenplay.

31:11

Obviously we've talked about their elements

31:13

but I mean we don't necessarily

31:15

know your your whole story so

31:17

just always there. But I

31:19

think that you know it really did

31:21

happen for me. This idea for the

31:24

film it was so inspirational happen some

31:26

This one actual moment in my own

31:28

life ah ever is that I was

31:30

sitting in this bar and he still

31:33

is. He nears city. Sitting between my

31:35

child friend who had to visit me from

31:37

Korea. And my husband our lives.

31:40

Are in your City and I was

31:42

translating between Are these two people in

31:44

culture and language? And also I realize

31:46

that I was translating between parts of

31:49

my own cells and my own history

31:51

and I was becoming a bit of

31:53

a bridge in a portal between those

31:56

two things. and I think that there

31:58

isn't. The feeling was so. Powerful

32:00

because it felt like my my past,

32:02

the President, the future were all sitting

32:04

in the room at the same time

32:06

having a drink So it was such

32:08

a special feeling and ah I was

32:10

looking around the bar and just feeling

32:12

like. Ah and I also make

32:15

eye contact with other people in the bar and they

32:17

would also a cigarette. We. Were to each

32:19

other and. The feeling I had was I was

32:21

like. Oh. My God. like. I wonder

32:24

if they have any idea how strange

32:26

a complete the extraordinary this feeling is?

32:28

To see here. For. Know ah with

32:31

these two. People and to translate

32:33

between them knowing that each of

32:35

them hold the key to my

32:37

story. At the other person

32:39

doesn't hands. And. They're both so dear to

32:41

me. So I think that way

32:43

about was. The ah. The

32:46

the feeling that I. That.

32:48

I was sort of like are left with that

32:50

night and then it could have ended up on

32:53

what I would call my maybe pile. Of.

32:55

Maybe things to work on me to the

32:57

think i'm gonna work on kind of a

32:59

thing. and then I think the from the

33:02

maybe pile it started to nag me a

33:04

little bit about. maybe this is something by

33:06

any to properly work on. But the thing

33:08

that I didn't know was that well. This.

33:11

Is feels really special to me but

33:13

is gonna feel special to anybody else

33:16

and something that I did was i

33:18

as she went and ah I went

33:20

and told the story of this night

33:22

to. Ah, lot of my friends like

33:24

a feel for the you know. A handful of my

33:27

friends and I were to tell them about it. Like

33:29

how these two how I ended up at. It

33:31

this place and what he felt like.

33:33

and I realize that no matter where,

33:36

my friends. That. I'm talking telling them

33:38

this about Ah where it was their

33:40

background as it doesn't matter because they

33:42

all had a story to tell me

33:44

every fc became better friends because of

33:46

the story that I told them and

33:48

I think that those are the things

33:50

are encouraged me to be like a

33:53

maybe I should try Ah writing it.

33:56

And then I feel like when I was trying to write

33:58

a something that I run into his. You

34:00

know, the script. I knew how to be bilingual.

34:03

Because. The stories about bilingualism. And.

34:05

I mean that in order and

34:08

bigger sense than just language. it's

34:10

about are two different worlds. Sosa,

34:12

bilingualism and it's biggest sense. So

34:14

it is so you know like a

34:17

really important seen for example is when

34:19

has Hung and Arthur Mitchell for the

34:21

first time. In. Their apartments and the

34:23

first thing that happens you like anything could happen

34:25

if you're shooting. Best seen that he should be

34:27

a western right? But really a thing to happen

34:29

to having an Arthur when they meet each other.

34:32

But the first thing that's gonna happen as but

34:34

Arthur's court to say hi to has song and

34:36

korean. Which. Is so beautiful

34:38

and then has was gonna say

34:40

hello to Arthur's in english which

34:42

is also beautiful and is beautiful

34:44

because. It they're They're bad

34:47

at the language, right? Because arthur's

34:49

say hi, bad Korean and

34:51

has this hello in bad

34:53

English and. That's where

34:55

the whole movie lives. That's what

34:58

the stories about. So I knew

35:00

and need to be bilingual but

35:02

then ah I realize that final

35:04

draft doesn't support or any other

35:07

alphabet but English. Price

35:09

and is my first script than I'm

35:11

writing. ah with the first as movie

35:13

movie I'm writing and when you run

35:16

into thy barrier you kind of get

35:18

a sense thought does this is not

35:20

what the into she wants from you

35:22

pay which is a feeling that you're

35:25

like oh that did last you want

35:27

a story like this didn't wanna bilingual

35:29

story and I think that that always

35:31

feels like are and the implicit way

35:33

to make sure that you don't right

35:36

thing paint and. But. I think

35:38

that. Thankfully as we gone through

35:40

the ten years that I spent in

35:42

theater. You. Know in paid five

35:44

hundred dollars for things that people maybe

35:46

not dick won't do. The. Play I

35:48

feel like it. Ah. A

35:51

part of it as as makes me it may be

35:53

very bold. In that I could

35:55

just say your bucket I'll just write

35:57

assists and just hope that it goes

35:59

well. You know? So

36:05

this was also, I was writing

36:08

it before Parasite opened up amazing

36:10

conversation about subtitles, you

36:12

know, what Dr. Pong Jun-il

36:14

was talking about with the subtitles. Like, this was

36:16

before that. So there was a very, there

36:19

was a very real feeling that, well, is

36:21

audience going to be okay with subtitles? And

36:24

I was like, yeah, but the subtitles is like a part

36:26

of the picture, right? So I need it. So

36:29

I think that that was sort of the thing that I was

36:31

feeling, but I think there was a part of it that I

36:33

just said, like, you know, screw it. I just have to do

36:35

it. And I think that that

36:37

was the writing of the script. Was

36:40

there ever a time when past

36:42

lives could have been, in your mind,

36:44

a play and then what tipped

36:47

the scales to it being a film? Because

36:49

I know there were some very specific reasons

36:51

that you shared on our writer roundtable. And I

36:53

think it's really interesting because,

36:57

you know, you're taking a leap to write your, I

37:00

don't even know, like, did you get books

37:02

about how to write a screenplay? Like that's a

37:04

whole different ballgame than what you'd been doing up

37:06

to that point. I always

37:08

thought it would be a screenplay because I

37:10

knew that the story had to be

37:13

really rooted in visual

37:16

and sonic representation of these

37:18

two cities and these two

37:20

times in a person's life.

37:23

So what I mean by that is

37:25

that, you know, the joke I often make

37:27

is the villain of the story is

37:29

Pacific Ocean and 24 years.

37:33

So in that way, we actually

37:35

need to see quite literally the contradiction

37:38

of identity, contradiction of our

37:40

lives, which is, you know,

37:42

Seoul and New York City are different

37:44

cities, but at times they

37:47

feel the same, but they

37:49

coexist in all these characters. Right?

37:53

And. So same thing when it comes to the

37:55

12 year old girl who's playing Nora and then

37:57

the four year old woman who's playing Nora. They.

38:00

They have to occupy the same space

38:02

and time for us to understand the

38:05

story. So I always knew that he

38:07

has to be tossed cinematically, so it

38:09

was fundamentally a cinematic. Story on

38:11

in.ah when use he?

38:14

I just needed that

38:16

flashback between. Slash. From

38:18

the twelve year old girl and and the

38:20

four year old. Woman. And Those

38:22

Two people. Ah. In.

38:25

A way that's completely contradictory coexisting.

38:27

Rates. So I think that's really the.

38:30

Ah, The. Impetus behind it

38:32

being a screenplay. Are you a My

38:34

thing is like. This

38:37

is sort of the things that I this is very

38:39

deeply the thing that. I believe which is

38:41

died. Ah, reading

38:43

books on screen is

38:45

a way to procrastinate

38:47

Ah from ah actually

38:49

writing a screenplay. Sorry.

38:53

He and I have yet to. Sometimes we have.

38:55

I missed out on a school had to video

38:57

for class, but I find it should be that

38:59

because I think that unfortunately. ah, there's only one

39:01

way to get better at writing, which is. To. Keep

39:04

doing it. and I really wish there

39:06

was a better. Away in So

39:08

and by the way, if someone found find

39:10

that that away, let me know because because

39:13

I think that there's just nothing you can

39:15

do about it except that you just have.

39:17

To ah right a lot and

39:19

be be battle lot of the

39:21

thing to use of have to

39:23

allow. Yourself Ah, so much room

39:25

for failure and so much room

39:27

for a lot of bad writing.

39:29

And what's amazing about. Or

39:31

bad writing is that you don't have to show

39:34

twenty one right. So you can do it. And

39:36

secret. You can do a lot about writing in

39:38

secret and then on. When you feel like it's

39:40

a little bit better than bad, then maybe you

39:42

should to people and you learned that it's bad

39:44

again and then and then you go back. Ashamed

39:47

and then you write more based on

39:49

what you learn from the bad writing

39:51

you accidentally show people, race, So

39:53

some oh so much of it. As about. Ah,

39:56

falling. Over and getting up and falling over and

39:58

getting other falling of and getting out. And I think

40:00

that's. Ah ah, the courage to do

40:02

that is gonna be the only thing that's

40:05

gonna make you. Are better at

40:07

it. To me I'm like I had

40:09

never know that a book that made

40:11

me a better writer. What has helped

40:13

as like you know the you know

40:15

there isn't there like damn. Seems.

40:17

The cat see the cows and chickens, all

40:20

the books you how there is that amazing

40:22

chart. Like that little list

40:24

of like also different beats with it

40:26

was Dark Knight of the Soul or

40:29

never liked that. Dot things I

40:31

feel like reading.one was really

40:33

nice telescopes and I was

40:35

helpful because just be like

40:38

oh okay, like. Yeah.

40:40

Whatever the rules. As like speech, five nice to

40:42

do this and I'm like. I.

40:44

Should go look at my page five and. Oh.

40:47

Oh you can. It's kind of those. It

40:49

or like maybe doesn't exist to try to do

40:51

it likes I think so that was the only

40:54

time that I think there are a book was

40:56

actually are powerful helpful to me elbow. Another.

40:58

Movie? Did you have any other movies

41:00

in your mind when you were. Reading

41:03

this obviously it's very personally sorry,

41:06

but the at. At the

41:08

same time there are you know

41:10

people. Flashback. To

41:12

movies that have mental as them and

41:14

move them about Similar, you know certain

41:16

sort of aspects whether it's a brief

41:18

encounter or the before. The

41:21

Before Trilogy or things like just any of

41:23

those Any others on your mind your mind

41:25

when you're writing. I

41:28

think thought I think that I

41:30

was watching a lot of movies

41:32

but I think ultimately or the

41:34

structure of the saying to me

41:36

is to fundamental a part of

41:38

the. Work. For

41:40

me to emulate. Anybody else a structure

41:42

like I feel it does. For the only one

41:44

of the main things I feel very very protective

41:47

about which is my own a sense of such

41:49

her and I think what I mean by that

41:51

is also my own sense of rhythm. By

41:53

my own sense of how story should move.

41:56

Which is I think that unique to

41:58

every single person. Again, Leave

42:00

that so let's say like you

42:02

know, like I want everybody in

42:04

here to ah, rewrite past lives

42:06

right and my things. Like I

42:08

just know that. I'm. Gonna have.

42:10

I don't know how many people are

42:13

here. I'm gonna have as many number

42:15

as a people For a here's a

42:17

version of how of past lies can

42:19

get written as not because of anything

42:22

except that everyone's going to show up

42:24

with the difference. Sense of music basically

42:26

is I believe that are a movie

42:28

is a piece of music. That.

42:31

Has to move like a piece of

42:33

music and how long a shot is

42:35

for example, Is. As I

42:37

is about how long the notice. For.

42:40

Example So I think in that

42:42

way, ah you know what to

42:44

me feels like. The right

42:46

moment to move onto the next shot mates.

42:49

Maybe. I some asking one of you

42:51

and you guys will say no the

42:53

know I would est a longer so in

42:55

that way the sector of the thing is

42:57

so sacred to what aims When I

42:59

mean when I say my voice as a

43:02

filmmaker thought I don't know if I

43:04

could emulate on other filmmakers. With them, right?

43:06

But. I think that when it comes to.

43:09

How a certain moment as put together.

43:12

You know, like I see like those

43:14

are the kind of things that I

43:16

was pulling so much from other films

43:18

like a movie that I'm asked everybody

43:21

to watch and I watched as well

43:23

as our my dinner with Andre because

43:25

my dinner with Andre his own an

43:27

entire it's and on his entire film

43:30

where it has every possible way of

43:32

shooting that and dinner conversation rights at

43:34

every kind of a way to shoot

43:36

us a conversation. Between friends

43:39

I think. site. It has done

43:41

because it has. To do it for so

43:43

long in the cylinder oil has really. So

43:45

in that way are you go in

43:47

there and you just really treated i

43:49

was cheating it like very much as

43:51

a tool box of some kind and

43:53

something that I knew that I wanted

43:55

to. Grab. From it.

43:58

Is or the way that. the

44:01

conversation starts in

44:04

shallow waters and

44:06

over time you don't even

44:08

realize that you're getting deeper and

44:10

deeper and at the end of it you

44:12

just realize you're in the dead middle of the

44:14

ocean and you're drowning right and that's sort of

44:16

the way that some of the conversations in my

44:19

dinner with Andre goes so

44:21

it will sort of start out just being

44:23

kind of a light almost like a fun

44:25

conversation and at one point you will not

44:27

notice when we got there but

44:29

it will suddenly feel like oh

44:32

where's a deep place when do we get

44:34

here right so for example

44:36

in our past lives in the final

44:38

scene the bar has long says

44:40

this line I didn't think

44:43

that liking your husband would hurt as much

44:45

right and of course that's the line that

44:47

opens up the rest of the conversation

44:50

it is a tremendously important

44:54

line just to unlock how deep

44:56

this conversation goes but

44:58

what happens is that in that you

45:00

could shoot that in a way where you're like time

45:03

for that line to come everybody

45:05

ready for the big line music

45:08

squells the actors turning and

45:10

looking at the camera like there's a way

45:12

to play it that way where you are

45:14

really preparing the audience for the

45:17

big line to come or

45:19

the way that my dinner

45:21

with Andre does it and then the way I

45:23

wanted I wanted to do it in the film

45:26

is for that question

45:28

for that statement that

45:30

opens up the rest of the conversation that

45:32

really important line to happen

45:34

as though it's not different at all from

45:36

the line that came before and only at

45:38

the end of that line do you realize

45:41

the significance of that line right so you

45:43

have to feel like completely effortless

45:45

like it's like a poison that just

45:47

goes right and then it's

45:49

and then we're like oh shit we're in the middle

45:51

of the ocean now how are we gonna get out

45:53

right so I think that in that way

45:56

that's that would be the kind of the way that I

45:58

would look at other filmmakers really

46:00

interesting. One last writing question before

46:02

I go on into other parts of the process,

46:04

but Inyen, was

46:07

that something that you'd known and thought

46:09

about your whole life and then

46:11

saw that it fit here or was it

46:14

something where you've written this and you see

46:16

kind of after the fact that that

46:18

is something that could be applied to what you're writing

46:21

about? I guess, does that make sense? Just what

46:24

came first? Well, it is a concept that because

46:26

I grew up partly in Korean

46:29

culture is sort of like an everyday

46:31

thing. And that's the amazing thing

46:33

about that word. In Korea, you will hear

46:35

the word Inyen like five times a day,

46:37

because it is just a natural

46:39

part of how people

46:41

interact. At the end of

46:44

this conversation, if you're in Korea and you're Koreans, I would

46:46

just be like, oh, got a night. That was a wonderful

46:48

Inyen. Good night. You'll be

46:50

that casual. And it's also true what

46:52

Nora says in the film. It's one

46:54

of the easiest ways to hate on someone,

46:56

you know, to be like, it

46:59

must be Inyen. Can I have your number? Oh, oh

47:03

my God, this Oh my God, we bumped into each other. What

47:05

an Inyen. Can I have a number? So

47:07

I think it's like it's it can be something

47:09

that is that every day. So that's the relationship

47:11

that I had to it. But

47:14

I think that the film, it

47:17

really had to do with the question that is posed in

47:19

the beginning of the film, which is

47:21

who are these people to each

47:23

other? And by asking the

47:25

audience who are these people to each other,

47:27

what I'm asking them, the the what I'm

47:30

asking the audience to become are detectives

47:32

to a mystery story, right? I'm

47:34

asking the audience to feel implicated in the

47:36

story and to sort of come

47:39

along on this journey with this question in mind,

47:41

which is who are these three people to each

47:43

other? And the answer

47:46

is as mysterious as

47:48

the question itself. It's probably more mysterious than the

47:50

question. And the answer is that, well, the three

47:52

of them are Inyen, right? Because

47:56

if you were to really ask, who

47:58

is like, has a Nora to each other? They're

48:00

not really exes, right? And

48:03

they're friends, but I think the friends hang

48:06

out more, like I think friends like know each other a little

48:08

better. But they're not strangers because

48:10

when they see each other, they feel like home.

48:13

How could that be any of that? So in

48:15

that way, they are Indian. And

48:18

that's maybe the best way to describe

48:20

it. And similar thing for Heung and

48:22

Arthur, right? When they see each

48:24

other, they're also able to see and, you

48:27

know, say like, oh my God, you and I are,

48:30

you know, they're not friends, but

48:32

they're not enemies. They're certainly not treating each other like

48:34

one. And but they're

48:36

not strangers either because they're connected to each other

48:38

through this woman. So they're Indian

48:41

as well. So I think that

48:43

it really was about answering that question,

48:45

because that was the only word that I could think

48:47

of to answer the question, who are they to

48:49

each other? But I realized then,

48:52

of course, that most audiences

48:54

for the film won't know what Indian

48:56

is because it's not only for a

48:58

Korean audience. So I

49:00

was like, OK, we just got to

49:02

explain what Indian is earlier in

49:05

the film so that everybody knows

49:07

from that poem, what he went on, what

49:09

he is so that they understand it. So

49:11

what's the easiest? It's the easiest trick

49:13

in the book, you guys, the books that

49:16

I don't read. But the

49:18

easiest trick, which is that have a character who

49:20

doesn't know what it is. Listen to the character

49:22

who does know what it is. And

49:27

try to be funny while you do it. So

49:29

I think that that is sort of the

49:31

solution to that, which is that like, well,

49:33

now once you've heard that explanation, and once

49:36

you know that explanation is meaningful

49:38

and it means something to the characters,

49:40

then for the rest of the film,

49:42

the audience also move forward

49:44

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49:47

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50:15

details. Fert with the

50:17

wisdom of this word. Yeah. So

50:21

as a first time filmmaker, it helps to have a great

50:24

story well-written. It also

50:26

helps to have a producer,

50:30

producers who really believe

50:32

in what you're doing and know what they're doing,

50:34

right? Um, for you, this

50:37

started in one place, I think

50:39

Scott wrote in, right? And ends

50:41

up with Christine Vachon and her

50:43

company killer films. But this is

50:45

somebody who has been making indie

50:47

films, particularly in New York forever

50:50

and you

50:52

know, just great films, far from having Carol on

50:55

and on and on. How did,

50:57

can you connect the dots from how you

50:59

get your script

51:02

first to root in, then to Christine and

51:05

then, cause I mean, you've said this

51:08

really couldn't have happened without the

51:11

support and experience and, um,

51:14

kind of backing of great

51:16

producers. Well, I think

51:18

that the, that

51:21

is without question because the thing

51:23

that I lack as a first time filmmaker

51:25

is experience. So I'm looking for somebody

51:27

who can come in and, uh, fill

51:30

in for the experience and expand my

51:32

experience so that I can have so

51:34

much experience to pull from. So I

51:36

knew that I needed, uh, producers who

51:39

were tremendously experienced in that way, because

51:41

I just knew that that was going

51:43

to make me feel safe,

51:45

but also it was going to make the

51:47

studio feel safe. Yeah. Because

51:49

the thing is the, uh, none

51:52

of this kind of amazing support could

51:54

have happened without a 24, right? And

51:57

I do 24 being, uh, very

52:00

very first film supporting

52:04

kind of a studio. Not least

52:06

with people from theater

52:08

they did Annie Baker's first, they

52:10

did Jeremy O Harris right. So

52:12

how early on did they get

52:15

involved? How did they get involved? Right away. So you

52:17

write the script and it goes to them

52:19

first? It goes to them at the same time as

52:21

we're sharing it with producers. Okay. Right

52:24

and it's because we're hoping that it all ends up

52:26

there. What we're hoping is for it to end up

52:28

at A24. Right. Because the thing is that they are

52:31

probably one of the most risk-welcoming

52:36

studios that exist. Right. Right

52:38

and they feel very comfortable taking

52:41

a chance on stories and people

52:43

that have not been tested before, that

52:45

have not been there before. Right.

52:48

It does mean that of

52:50

course the kind of

52:52

their amazing risk-taking of course comes

52:55

with its own like

52:57

a you know like independent film

53:00

kind of a you know

53:03

something that you run into as an independent studio. Right.

53:05

As opposed to like having a really really

53:07

firm structure and everything. So much of it actually

53:09

has to go through the ingenious

53:12

and the work of the producers. And like

53:14

I rely so much more on their producers

53:17

than I might if I'm working in a

53:19

traditional studio system for example. So

53:21

yeah. So are they the ones then who say

53:25

we want to bet on Celine and we are

53:27

gonna we are gonna connect you with at one

53:30

point a root in at one point

53:32

Christine. Are they the matchmakers? Well

53:34

I think that I that the script is

53:36

a matchmaker. Yeah. Right. It's more like who

53:38

comes to want to do

53:41

the script. And of course there's an

53:43

amazing moment where other producers want to

53:45

work with you because they fall in love with the script. Right.

53:49

And I think that that was the part

53:52

of the story that I know is

53:54

not always the case. But in

53:56

my case it was very much that like I had

53:58

a script. the

54:00

producer read it and then they wanted to do

54:03

it and it was as simple as that. And

54:05

then at the same time, 824 was

54:07

reading it and they're like, anytime that

54:09

you want to go ahead with

54:11

it, let's do it. Yeah. Then

54:14

there's the casting process, of

54:16

course, where so Gretelie

54:18

who popped big time from

54:21

this, we've seen her in

54:23

other things from Russian Doll

54:25

through now morning show. But

54:28

this was, she's

54:30

not necessarily at the

54:32

time you're casting like a

54:34

household name, a bankable name, anything like

54:36

that. And in fact, you initially, it

54:39

sounds like, met with her

54:41

and then went in another direction. Well, I

54:43

never went with her. And then you saw

54:45

her tape. Oh, you saw her on tape.

54:47

Heron tape, yeah. How did it first

54:49

bypass her and then come back around to

54:52

her? Well, I think that

54:55

casting process is always, and I'm

54:58

just learning from my other project, my

55:00

second project as well, which is

55:02

that casting process is always a

55:05

process of learning to trust your own

55:07

self, which

55:10

is always difficult, but you have to do it. But

55:13

I think that first time, all

55:16

my actors, Keio and

55:18

Gretel, both of them just taped for me. Like,

55:21

you know, hundreds of tapes that we got for

55:24

these roles. And I

55:26

saw Gretel's tape and I loved her tape. But

55:29

at the time that I was going to

55:31

work with an actor who

55:34

for Hye-seung, who just didn't

55:36

feel like the right match for her.

55:39

And it was just a matter of chemistry. It's a

55:41

matter of where they are in their

55:43

in their life. It was a little bit of that.

55:45

And I think that because of

55:47

that, she

55:49

was ruled out just in a simple way of

55:52

like, well, she's not right for this male

55:55

actor who was about to play Hye-seung. And

55:57

then, you know, you know. COVID

56:01

movie gods, things like that, they say like, well,

56:03

he's not going to be your head on. And

56:05

I'm like, okay. So actually,

56:07

so what is going to be then the first

56:09

step for the casting for this film? And

56:12

actually, the first step that

56:14

I realized is to cast

56:17

a Nora. So then

56:19

I went to the sort of blank slate

56:21

of feeling like, okay, it doesn't matter who

56:24

it is, it's like, who is the right Nora

56:26

for this, for this film.

56:29

And I think that Greta was the first thought.

56:31

So she was actually the first thought in that

56:33

way. And I wanted to meet her right away.

56:35

And I met her. And I

56:37

think this is the other side. I'm sure like, I mean, you guys

56:39

are going to be in a situation where you're casting all the time.

56:42

And I wish that there was an amazing

56:45

trick or a thing that

56:48

I could tell you that it's going to be

56:50

helpful to you. But the truth is that it

56:52

is just like falling in love, where

56:54

you just like, there's no rhyme or reason to

56:57

it. Sometimes somebody just walks in

56:59

and they just know that that person is the right

57:01

person. Right. And it's really

57:03

like, and you can't ever go with

57:05

the person who feels

57:07

right, you know, way that of

57:11

the marketing or something, you know, like

57:13

some other impure reason

57:16

for why that person

57:18

is right for that role. And I think

57:20

that the question is always about staying pure

57:22

to what you know about the character and

57:25

what you need that character, who you need

57:27

that person to be for

57:29

that character. So I think

57:32

that in that way, how you have to

57:34

approach it, like you're falling in love, where

57:36

you have to meet them and you're like,

57:38

maybe this is the person in your own.

57:40

Exactly. You're like, maybe

57:43

this is the one I don't know. And

57:46

then I think that and this is how I am in

57:48

love, which is I test them. I

57:51

test them. I test them. I go like, okay,

57:53

so I feel like this is the right person. Let's

57:56

see if they really are, you know, and

57:58

then you ask questions. Yes. to do

58:00

the scene, you talk to

58:02

them, and then you just try to

58:04

see if this actually is the right

58:07

person for it. So I auditioned both

58:09

Greta and Teo separately for over

58:11

three hours, you know, and

58:13

of course like I feel like by the third hour I think

58:15

both of them had a feeling that I was going to

58:17

cast them, right? But I think that

58:19

in that conversation it's like well you're about to

58:21

get into a very deep and intimate relationship with

58:24

them because you're about to make a movie with

58:26

them and you're going to be seeing them for

58:28

12 hours a day and then you're

58:30

going to see them in the

58:32

edit for another, you know, weeks and weeks of 12 hours

58:34

a day. So you have to be in love with them,

58:37

right? And you have to just believe that

58:39

this is the only person who could play this role

58:41

and there's no way to know that except

58:44

for the there's nobody who knows that except

58:46

for the director, right? The

58:48

writer and the director I think because I feel

58:50

like they're the only ones who's going to actually

58:52

understand what the character needs to be. So

58:55

I think that that's really the best

58:58

way to describe it. You just

59:00

have to trust your, trust

59:02

what you know about the character and trust

59:04

what you see in the

59:07

actor who shows up for you. Yeah.

59:09

So we recently had

59:11

on the podcast Michelle Satter who

59:13

runs the Sundance Institute and

59:16

just got an honorary Oscar as well and

59:19

she said that the number one kind

59:22

of intimidating thing or

59:24

fear for first-time filmmakers who she

59:26

works with are how to

59:29

direct actors. Now you are

59:32

perhaps a different

59:34

case than most that she deals with because of

59:36

the fact that you'd had a lot

59:38

of background in theater, but how

59:41

does one learn how to direct actors

59:43

for film? Did you feel

59:46

also that that was an intimidating part of

59:48

the process? In a way I

59:50

found it to be easier

59:53

than actually working with actors in theater

59:56

because and this is the metaphor

59:59

I've used before. where I

1:00:01

think that for theater acting,

1:00:03

it is so much about building

1:00:06

the machine that these actors

1:00:08

are gonna run every night. So

1:00:10

it's actually about consistency. So my metaphor

1:00:13

for it is that, theater

1:00:15

acting is like Buddhism, where

1:00:17

it's about going to the temple. I don't know if

1:00:19

you guys know Buddhism very well, but in Buddhism, you

1:00:21

have to go to the temple every day for 108

1:00:23

days and bow for 108 times for

1:00:29

you to get one of those beads that

1:00:31

shows that you're a really good Buddhist. Actually,

1:00:33

I don't know about the 108 days of going there, but it's

1:00:36

like a month, every month that you go and then you

1:00:38

bow 108 days. So it's about showing

1:00:40

up every day. So it's not really a matter

1:00:42

of like, were you the best on this day

1:00:44

or were you the worst on this day? It's

1:00:46

about, no, no, no, you were great every

1:00:49

single day. And maybe one day

1:00:51

was a little better and the other day it

1:00:53

was not, but it's about being there every day.

1:00:56

So it doesn't matter that you

1:00:58

get a transcendental performance one night, because what's more

1:01:00

important is for that actor to be able to

1:01:02

do it again the next day. So

1:01:04

it's always very difficult to keep

1:01:07

the actors from doing a really

1:01:09

alive performance, because if you're Hamlet,

1:01:11

every night you die. How

1:01:13

do you die like it's the first time you die? Spoiler

1:01:15

alert. Post-soil, spoiler. Hamlet dies,

1:01:17

sorry. So

1:01:19

Hamlet dies and at the end, you're always like, the

1:01:22

actor who's playing Hamlet, if you're a great theater actor,

1:01:24

you need to be able to die like it's the

1:01:26

first time you have ever died in

1:01:28

front of an entire audience that already knows that

1:01:31

Hamlet's gonna die, right? So it's the magic of

1:01:33

that, it's the power of that. In

1:01:36

film acting, I would call it Christianity.

1:01:39

That'll be my metaphor for it, because you

1:01:41

can screw around a week as

1:01:43

long as you show up on Sunday. And

1:01:46

you, as long as you show up on

1:01:48

Sunday, and

1:01:50

you, you know, and then you, you know, like

1:01:56

give money, you do all the things you need to do, you're

1:01:58

like, say you're super. sorry about everything

1:02:01

you've done all week. You are a

1:02:03

great Christian, right? I mean, I'm

1:02:05

sure there are actual Christians in here who are

1:02:07

like, wow, you're very offensive. Okay. But

1:02:10

I think that to me, it's like, it's like thing where

1:02:12

it's like in a screen acting,

1:02:15

it's completely okay for

1:02:17

you to be not

1:02:19

as good as the one take that's going to end

1:02:21

up in the movie, right? So you can be like,

1:02:23

you can have five takes that are not working. And

1:02:25

then the six take you're like, you're transcendental. And

1:02:28

like as a director, I can just say like, I

1:02:30

have it. So let's just do one

1:02:32

for safety. And then we'll be done. Right. So

1:02:34

I think that it's really about getting to that

1:02:36

one that you know, it's gonna end up in

1:02:38

the film. Right. So in that way, it's not

1:02:40

a matter of no, no, no, you have 20

1:02:45

weeks, where every week you have

1:02:47

to do eight performances. And

1:02:49

every single performance has to be really

1:02:51

good, right, really good. And hopefully,

1:02:53

if you're a great theater actor,

1:02:55

actor, great, every day has to

1:02:58

be great. And that's a

1:03:00

much harder thing to build, I feel, than

1:03:02

I think that when it comes to screen

1:03:04

acting, where it's like, actually, it's

1:03:07

about capturing the magic of the one

1:03:09

really alive moment that this

1:03:12

performance is. So if you need the

1:03:14

Hamlet to die once in film, then

1:03:16

you just have to achieve

1:03:19

the feeling of aliveness in the

1:03:21

death of Hamlet. Right. And

1:03:24

how you put that together, how you cut it together,

1:03:26

and how you get the performance from the actors, I

1:03:28

think so much of it is about the trust

1:03:31

that it's like, no, no, I just

1:03:33

know that if you try this, and this

1:03:35

and this, we're gonna get to that performance that's gonna

1:03:38

end up in the movie. But that's where you

1:03:40

I mean, for a person who had not

1:03:42

made a film before, according

1:03:44

to your actors did some really interesting

1:03:46

things like having

1:03:49

some of the actors

1:03:52

not ever, even though they're around each

1:03:54

other, they cannot touch until they touch

1:03:57

in the film, or even more.

1:04:00

interestingly to me, John Magaro's

1:04:02

character and Teo Yu's

1:04:04

character did not meet

1:04:07

until they meet as characters in

1:04:09

the film. You went to great

1:04:12

lengths to make sure that that was when they actually

1:04:14

first see each other, right? Those

1:04:16

are things that I don't know that everybody would think

1:04:19

to do. That, do you

1:04:21

attribute that to... Well, that's...

1:04:23

Yeah, please. That's connected to what we're just

1:04:25

talking about, right? Because I think that's exactly the

1:04:27

thing. I feel like

1:04:29

if you don't have to... Because

1:04:34

in theatre, and I feel like the reason I

1:04:36

knew that I would like to do that is

1:04:39

because I knew what

1:04:41

is difficult about theatre acting, which is

1:04:44

that every night the performance lives

1:04:46

and dies, and then the next day it has to come

1:04:48

back to life and then live and die again. What

1:04:51

if you never had to kill a

1:04:53

performance? Maybe it never has to die.

1:04:55

Everybody can stay alive every time. The

1:04:58

way that it can happen is by

1:05:00

creating an environment where making sure that

1:05:03

the performance is alive is easier to

1:05:05

achieve, right? Because the thing is, this

1:05:07

movie doesn't have special effects or

1:05:09

costumes or anything to really help the actress.

1:05:12

All that is happening is the sunrise

1:05:14

and the sunset of the actors, of

1:05:17

the actors' faces, right? All you're

1:05:19

doing is you're staying at the actors' faces, and what

1:05:21

lives and dies on the faces, what's in the film.

1:05:24

Because of that, it felt always felt

1:05:26

worth it to go the extraordinary length,

1:05:30

to make sure that the

1:05:32

actors were exceptionally supported

1:05:34

in bringing out the living

1:05:36

performance. So when Hessung and Arthur

1:05:38

didn't meet each other in person, and then

1:05:41

when they saw each other for the first

1:05:43

time, something that happened

1:05:45

was that for them, the imagined

1:05:48

person that the

1:05:51

other guy was collapsed, and

1:05:54

the actual person was there to replace it. And

1:05:57

then for every take after that, that

1:05:59

feeling... of the collapse that they were

1:06:01

able to replicate right away. So

1:06:03

similarly to when Heung and

1:06:05

Nora weren't able to touch and

1:06:08

then they were hugging for the first time.

1:06:10

Well that's the kind of a thing that

1:06:13

makes sense for the characters experience because

1:06:16

in the film the characters Heung

1:06:18

and Nora they only have ever

1:06:20

had a physical interaction with the

1:06:22

other person as children. But

1:06:24

24 years later they're both

1:06:27

grown adult and other

1:06:29

adult men and women. So in

1:06:32

a way this is the first time that

1:06:34

these characters are hugging each

1:06:36

other because they're not kids anymore. So I

1:06:38

think in that way it just

1:06:41

felt like it was a completely worthwhile

1:06:43

exercise to have the actors

1:06:46

not touch because the longing that

1:06:48

was being built in the actors

1:06:50

naturally because actors are you know and

1:06:53

most of us who are in theater this is

1:06:55

very real where it's like we like hugging,

1:06:57

we like walking around blinking arms,

1:06:59

we like you know you know you know

1:07:02

giving each other pets and stuff. And I

1:07:04

think that by just telling these two actors

1:07:06

who are of course who feel a lot

1:07:08

of affection for their co-star being like hey

1:07:11

there is you cannot touch each

1:07:13

other right. There was a kind of a natural

1:07:16

longing that started to get built between

1:07:18

Greta and Teo and they every time

1:07:20

they would have to say goodbye to each other after the day they

1:07:22

would be like I wish I

1:07:24

could hug you but I can't and they'll wave

1:07:26

right. And there's something about that where that tension

1:07:29

then of course builds

1:07:32

in a way that like anytime that you're told

1:07:34

that you can't have something, you can't do something

1:07:36

that is going to then become

1:07:38

a thing that you that's all you want

1:07:40

to do. So in that scene and because they

1:07:42

knew that the hug was coming you

1:07:45

could just you can just feel both of them walking

1:07:48

on set being like today is finally

1:07:50

today that we can hug each

1:07:52

other you know and that energy is what you

1:07:54

see on screen. Last couple

1:07:56

things from me, last couple minutes and then we're going to

1:07:59

turn it over to you. to soon questions, but

1:08:01

a couple of things that I feel like we

1:08:03

just have to note. One of them, this blew

1:08:05

my mind when I heard you talk about this

1:08:07

at our roundtable, the

1:08:10

crazy, powerful,

1:08:12

moving, final scene

1:08:15

in terms of on

1:08:17

the scene as Hyson and

1:08:20

Nora are parting. Can

1:08:22

you just talk about how you arrived?

1:08:24

It was very deliberate. I know finding the

1:08:26

street. You've built

1:08:28

up all this emotion in the

1:08:31

story, but the blocking, the movement

1:08:33

of the camera in that there are

1:08:35

no accidents there. Can you break

1:08:37

that down? Because I don't think

1:08:40

for most of us, it's a conscious thing

1:08:43

that we're thinking about when

1:08:45

we're watching it, but you gave it

1:08:47

a lot of thought. Totally. I mean, so

1:08:49

finding the street itself

1:08:51

was such a journey because I

1:08:54

knew that my instruction to the location

1:08:56

managers and my

1:08:59

location managers was a contradictory

1:09:01

one because I had said to

1:09:04

them, said to him, the street has

1:09:06

to be a completely ordinary street that

1:09:08

is like your neighborhood street

1:09:11

that a tourist would not be able to

1:09:13

notice. I was sharing this movie

1:09:15

with an audience in Paris and I was

1:09:17

just telling them and they understood it completely,

1:09:19

which is that like, well, I don't think

1:09:22

if I asked an actual person who lives

1:09:24

in Paris, what their Paris is, they wouldn't

1:09:26

say Eiffel Tower. They'll

1:09:28

talk about the little cafe around the corner, they'll

1:09:30

talk about the street they used to live on.

1:09:32

And that's true about all the cities that we

1:09:34

live in. I don't think the any of us

1:09:36

here, if they're like, well, what's your LA? I

1:09:38

don't think anybody's going to say the Getty. It's

1:09:40

like, that's not really. I think you'll be like,

1:09:43

no, it's this coffee shop and this place where

1:09:45

I used to park my car. So

1:09:47

my thing is, you kind of want the street

1:09:49

to feel like it's a New

1:09:51

York street for New Yorkers. So it needs

1:09:55

to be completely ordinary, but also it

1:09:57

needed to be ending of the day.

1:10:00

this ending of the film, a

1:10:02

beautiful street, a perfect street, extraordinary

1:10:04

street, a street that speaks to

1:10:06

the whole film, right? So my

1:10:08

location manager and my DP walked

1:10:11

around every night for like weeks

1:10:13

to find that street. And I remember when my

1:10:15

DP called me and said, Hey, Celine, I think

1:10:17

I found the street. And I was like, I

1:10:19

freaking believe you. And I went and

1:10:21

I looked and I was like, this is a freaking

1:10:23

street. It's amazing, you know? If

1:10:26

I think we were just looking at it and we're

1:10:28

talking about how long the track has to be, because

1:10:30

we wanted to lay track and it ended up being

1:10:32

150 feet. And so we were talking

1:10:34

about we're laying this, we're talking

1:10:36

about the track, we're talking about like, you know, all these

1:10:38

like technical things. And there was a question

1:10:41

that my DP asked, which was a practical

1:10:43

question, and a technical

1:10:45

question that ended

1:10:47

up unlocking the visual language of the

1:10:49

whole movie, which is that

1:10:51

he asked me which direction is Nora

1:10:54

and Hyezong walking to go to the

1:10:56

Uber and which way is Nora walking

1:10:58

home. And it came

1:11:00

to me immediately because it was

1:11:02

so obvious in that way. Because of course,

1:11:04

if you were to treat that line as

1:11:06

a horizontal line, as

1:11:09

a timeline, Nora

1:11:11

and Hyezong have to walk from right

1:11:13

to left, walking to the past. And

1:11:16

they have to dwell there in that

1:11:18

spot for two minutes, this moment in

1:11:20

the past, right? And when

1:11:24

we see the flashback there, right? When

1:11:26

we to the childhood, and when

1:11:28

we see that childhood, something that I

1:11:30

knew that, and this was, I think,

1:11:33

my production designer's idea, where I knew

1:11:35

that something about that flashback need to

1:11:37

feel different than the when

1:11:39

the two children actually said goodbye in the earlier

1:11:42

part of the film. And they

1:11:45

and something that we did there is to

1:11:47

we lit that scene in the

1:11:49

dark, in the same time as when this

1:11:51

walk home is happening. Because what we're trying

1:11:53

to imply is that this

1:11:56

is the these two

1:11:58

kids have been waiting to get their good by for

1:12:00

24 years. So

1:12:02

that's why it's lit in the dark. And so

1:12:05

they have that scene, we're closer up, and

1:12:07

then the Uber comes and

1:12:10

Uber takes Hezong and drives him into

1:12:12

the past. And

1:12:15

then North stands there for one

1:12:17

minute. And by the way, this is

1:12:19

another thing where the movie gods

1:12:21

really took care of us because there

1:12:23

was a little piece of wind. We

1:12:25

didn't have a wind machine, which I couldn't believe. But

1:12:28

there was a little piece of wind that

1:12:30

magically showed up and started to blow her

1:12:32

skirt. And he actually started to blow her skirt

1:12:34

in the direction that it can only be blown, which

1:12:36

is towards the past. And North stands

1:12:40

there for a second, and then she turns and

1:12:42

she starts walking from

1:12:45

left to right, in

1:12:47

the direction of the present and

1:12:49

the future. And at the end of

1:12:51

it, she goes home. And the home

1:12:53

is where Arthur is and they go

1:12:55

home after this walk towards

1:12:57

the present and the future. And

1:13:00

then the very final shot of the film is

1:13:02

Arthur being driven away to JFK. And

1:13:06

again, the direction of which way should

1:13:08

he be driving away is also

1:13:10

clear because he

1:13:12

should also get to move forward. He

1:13:14

should also get to get

1:13:17

driven from left to right. So when

1:13:20

that got unlocked, and again, it

1:13:22

was only unlocked because of my DP's, you

1:13:25

know, just the practical question of which

1:13:27

way should they be walking, it

1:13:30

actually then unlocked the

1:13:32

visual language for every horizontal line in the

1:13:35

film. Because then every horizontal in

1:13:37

the film, the answer would be that like, no,

1:13:39

we actually have to treat

1:13:41

this like it's a timeline, right? Everything

1:13:43

will be a timeline. Yeah. I think it's

1:13:46

great. That's amazing. Okay,

1:13:53

last minute for me, if we could just do

1:13:55

rapid fire, just sort of the first sentence or

1:13:57

whatever that comes to us and then we're going

1:13:59

to the students. Did

1:14:02

you show the film in advance to

1:14:05

your childhood sweetheart and to your

1:14:07

husband? And what

1:14:10

were their reactions? My husband is, he

1:14:12

has, he's seen

1:14:14

it all very early but it's,

1:14:17

the movie's not out in Korea, it's gonna come out later

1:14:20

early next month. So my son, yeah, no, no,

1:14:22

yeah. Wow. I

1:14:26

feel like we're in on the secret here. Premier

1:14:31

to Sundance in January, open in theaters in

1:14:33

June. Unbelievable critical response,

1:14:35

did very well commercially. Get

1:14:38

into this award season, you win the Best

1:14:40

Featured Gotham, nominated for the Best Drama

1:14:43

Picture Golden Globe and a bunch of stuff, nominated

1:14:45

now for the Best Featured

1:14:48

Spirit Award Oscar nominations, the picture

1:14:50

and original screenplay we're talking about.

1:14:52

Just what in

1:14:55

short have you made of where this

1:14:57

little movie has gone? Would you ever

1:14:59

have pictured with

1:15:01

the first one to have this

1:15:03

kind of a response? No, it's

1:15:05

amazing. I feel like every step of

1:15:08

the way also, like, because part of the

1:15:10

power of it being my first movie

1:15:13

is that I don't know

1:15:15

enough, right? I don't know enough to even

1:15:17

know what to expect. So there's a really

1:15:19

amazing powerful part of it where to not

1:15:21

have expectation and to not know what

1:15:24

it could look like. I feel like every

1:15:26

piece of it is you don't have entitlements

1:15:28

about the next piece, right? You're always

1:15:31

like so surprised and amazed about the next thing.

1:15:33

And then you're like at a new event, you go

1:15:35

to the Oscar nominee lunch and you're like, I don't

1:15:37

know what this is. And then you go and you're

1:15:39

like, Oh my God, this is what it is. And

1:15:41

then next thing happens. I'm like, Oh my God, like

1:15:43

I usually sometimes and then you're like, you were nominated

1:15:45

for this. And I'm like, that's amazing. I don't even

1:15:47

know what it is. You know, so

1:15:49

I think that there is a, I don't

1:15:51

know, there's power to not

1:15:54

knowing actually, it gives me a lot of energy.

1:15:57

Yeah. If you were to... add

1:16:00

a chapter to the film 12 years

1:16:03

from now, from where they left.

1:16:06

Can you tease us of where you

1:16:08

think these characters might be? I think they'll

1:16:10

just be living their life, you know, it's

1:16:12

about the finiteness of these

1:16:15

experiences in our lives. So I think that

1:16:17

they just go back to the lives that

1:16:20

they were meant to live. I think the

1:16:22

only thing that's different is that in their

1:16:24

souls, that something got unlocked, and you can't

1:16:26

really see how different they are. Yeah. Lastly,

1:16:30

I want to just ask you about what's coming

1:16:33

up next, just both immediately.

1:16:35

I know there's a project

1:16:37

that has been kind of, it's

1:16:39

out there that this is coming, but also, do you

1:16:42

see yourself going back and

1:16:44

forth between film and theater like a Martin

1:16:46

McDonough or Sam Mendes or somebody, or are

1:16:48

you now, have you closed the chapter and

1:16:50

begun a different chapter and it's going to

1:16:53

be film from here

1:16:55

on out? Oh, it's going to be film from

1:16:57

here on out. And

1:17:01

the next film will

1:17:03

be, it's, I

1:17:05

heard a rom-com. I

1:17:08

can't wait to make it, you guys. Okay. I

1:17:11

just can't wait to get behind the camera and

1:17:13

then make this movie and then I'll talk to

1:17:15

you guys again. All right, good. Talk about it

1:17:17

again. Let's

1:17:20

make this a tradition after each week.

1:17:22

Okay, closing now with student questions. We

1:17:25

have mics that are going around. Please

1:17:27

say your name and a succinct question.

1:17:31

Hi, my name is Ben Kaplan.

1:17:33

I'm a first year MFA grad director. My

1:17:35

question actually is about the screenplay though. This

1:17:38

movie is based in part on

1:17:40

something that actually happened to you.

1:17:42

When writing a screenplay or anything

1:17:44

that has such a

1:17:46

personal connection and is based in this

1:17:49

reality, how do you come to the

1:17:51

conclusion on what to include and what

1:17:53

not to include from real life versus

1:17:55

like fact and fiction? Well,

1:17:58

I think that there is the truth. that you're

1:18:00

trying to tell the story about. And

1:18:02

then there are also facts about,

1:18:05

you know, what may have

1:18:07

transpired in your own life and things

1:18:09

like that. And my thing is like, for example, like I

1:18:12

know that the goal is to make

1:18:14

a romantic film, is a romantic film. And

1:18:16

I mean that not in the traditionally

1:18:18

romances, the genre and a little bit

1:18:21

more as a, it's

1:18:23

about the kind of the vastness of our

1:18:26

life and our love, right? Because I really

1:18:28

believe that the most extraordinary thing to happen in

1:18:30

our lives is love. You know, that's the thing

1:18:32

that can happen. So it's a movie about love.

1:18:34

It's not about dating, but it's about love. And

1:18:37

I think that because of that,

1:18:39

when I'm trying to turn this into a

1:18:41

script, you know, the details of like,

1:18:44

you know, how I

1:18:46

actually felt about, you know,

1:18:48

everyone and things like that, like, I feel

1:18:50

like those things are actually not as important

1:18:52

as what the characters need to

1:18:54

feel about it. So I think that

1:18:56

it was not so micromanagy, as I

1:18:58

think that it could be imagined.

1:19:02

It was so much more about, okay, I

1:19:05

know how the movie begins with these three

1:19:07

people. And I know where it's

1:19:09

all gonna drive to, right? And the

1:19:11

rest of it is so much about like, okay, so

1:19:13

what is the way that we're gonna

1:19:16

get from point A to point B?

1:19:18

And sometimes it's also about the including

1:19:21

certain things and not including others, right?

1:19:23

Because it's like the way the time

1:19:25

moves, we don't know about

1:19:28

what's happening with Nora in those, whenever

1:19:30

there's a 12-year shift, we

1:19:33

don't know what happened to those characters. We only learn about

1:19:35

it when we're in the next thing. So I

1:19:37

think that to me,

1:19:39

the thing that we can get into

1:19:41

when we're doing something autobiographical is to

1:19:43

get caught up in the

1:19:45

part of it where it's like, well, this is how it felt

1:19:47

like to me. Sometimes I'll realize that,

1:19:49

well, how it felt like to me is

1:19:52

not gonna communicate as well as this thing

1:19:54

that I know I can do this

1:19:56

for the character, right? So I think

1:19:59

that it is always... going to be driven

1:20:01

by, well, what is the, where

1:20:04

is the audience? Right. Where is the audience? And

1:20:06

these are, are they going to understand it? Like

1:20:08

there's some jokes about like theater

1:20:10

and stuff that I used to have in the script.

1:20:13

When I was editing it, I was like, nobody in the audience

1:20:15

is going to understand this. Got

1:20:18

to go. Right. But those things are as

1:20:20

dear to me as the, some of the

1:20:22

other details. So I think it's really about

1:20:25

finding the thing that, you know, that the,

1:20:27

all audience members are going to feel connected

1:20:29

to even in your own personal story. So

1:20:31

I think that was always the anchoring thing.

1:20:35

Hi, my name is

1:20:38

Jackie. I'm a second year studying communications.

1:20:40

This is less of a serious question,

1:20:42

but I realized that one of Hae-seung's

1:20:44

friends, his name is Chang-gye. He's

1:20:46

a very famous Korean musician. How

1:20:49

did that come to be? And what was your

1:20:51

experience like working with him? Oh,

1:20:53

he auditioned for me and I was a

1:20:55

big fan of his, but he auditioned for me. And,

1:20:57

of course, the, at the, at the

1:20:59

end of the audition, I knew that

1:21:02

he wasn't going to be Hae-seung, but I was,

1:21:05

I think I ended up asking him, he's like, but would you

1:21:07

like to play another role? Sort of. Yeah.

1:21:10

Nice. Hi, thank you so

1:21:12

much for making such a wonderful movie, technically and everything.

1:21:15

Throughout the film, there's a lot of

1:21:18

dialogue that's extremely concise and very realistic,

1:21:20

but also it's still extremely dramatic. Was

1:21:22

it very difficult to arrive at such

1:21:25

efficient, I guess, dialogue that's still moving along the

1:21:27

story, but still kind

1:21:29

of was dramatic in a sense,

1:21:31

or was that, did it come easily to you? How

1:21:33

was that process? Well, I think that that

1:21:35

is a result of working in theater

1:21:38

for over 10 years, because I feel

1:21:40

like something that's true about theater is

1:21:42

that because it's live performance, sometimes the

1:21:44

audience will miss the line. That's really

1:21:47

crucial. So

1:21:49

sometimes it's about actually the, the

1:21:52

conciseness or the way that it can really

1:21:54

go through,

1:21:56

like there's a part of it where like

1:21:59

propaganda. something where it has to communicate

1:22:02

meaning in a way

1:22:04

that is so much more clear than, I

1:22:09

would say, an ordinary human speech. So

1:22:11

this is kind of connected to the question that

1:22:13

you were asking before, which is that, well,

1:22:16

if I was to

1:22:18

be really autobiographical, most

1:22:21

conversations are meandering, most conversations

1:22:23

are imprecise, and we mumble,

1:22:26

and we start to say something and we change,

1:22:28

of course. To me, the fantasy of the film,

1:22:30

the fantasy of past lives, is that

1:22:33

everybody is completely articulate and

1:22:36

very deep, and they're

1:22:38

able to communicate at depth on

1:22:41

first try, right? Which I don't think

1:22:44

is actually possible. To me, I'm like,

1:22:46

that's what makes it cinematic, or just

1:22:48

what makes it cinema, as opposed to

1:22:50

documentary or something, right? So I

1:22:52

think in that way, that would always be my

1:22:54

guiding thing, which is that, well, we just

1:22:56

have to get to the point ASAP,

1:22:58

and it has to be

1:23:00

understandable translated in every

1:23:03

language, too. Hi.

1:23:06

I wanted to first say thank you so much

1:23:08

for coming out. I love this movie so much,

1:23:10

and I think it's so important and so special.

1:23:13

I was kind of just wondering, why specifically

1:23:15

did you decide to make these characters reunite

1:23:17

at this point in their lives? Why not

1:23:19

20 years down the line, or maybe 10

1:23:21

years earlier? Why? You

1:23:24

were like, why 12 years? Yeah, and why?

1:23:27

I don't know, maybe it

1:23:29

has some, why not? Why didn't I kiss him? I

1:23:31

already have still be with his partner or something. Why

1:23:33

do you have specific circumstances to have

1:23:36

the meat? Because

1:23:39

of the, I mean,

1:23:41

because of the dramatic potential of it, right?

1:23:44

And also the number of,

1:23:47

like, 12 years, if it's 20 years, it's

1:23:50

almost as though it's inconsequential, like it almost

1:23:52

as though it doesn't matter that much that

1:23:54

it happened 20 years ago. Like, it loses

1:23:56

the power of it being recent

1:23:59

enough. And if it's seven, it's

1:24:01

like too close, right? So I think

1:24:03

it's just really about the kind of

1:24:06

that ambiguous space for it, as well

1:24:08

as like, I think that's dramatic potential

1:24:11

for it, which is that like, the

1:24:13

impossibility that is also met

1:24:15

with potential, it is kind of that sweet

1:24:17

spot in that way. So it's a mechanical

1:24:19

decision. Yeah. Hello,

1:24:21

I'm Sean. I'm a first year MFA

1:24:25

cinematography student. I

1:24:27

second all the sentiments that have already been given to

1:24:29

you about you and this film and being here. So

1:24:32

thank you again for being here tonight. Your

1:24:35

film just has a very incredibly unique

1:24:37

visual style with its frame within the

1:24:39

frame with its long takes and its

1:24:41

importance of wide shots. I

1:24:44

was wondering how much of this visual style

1:24:46

did you think go from the offset when

1:24:48

writing the script and how much came from

1:24:50

collaboration with your team? And was there any

1:24:52

like learning curve thinking visually for the screen

1:24:54

compared to the stage? I

1:24:57

think that the interesting

1:24:59

because I feel like when I met Shabir

1:25:01

Krishna, who was my DP, the feeling that

1:25:03

I had is like, this is the right

1:25:05

person to make this movie with. And

1:25:08

I met a lot of wonderful DPs

1:25:10

whose work I admire so much. But

1:25:12

I knew that Shabir is the right person because

1:25:14

he's the only person who tried to, who did

1:25:16

not try to dazzle me

1:25:20

with the technical, right?

1:25:22

And it's okay. It's like scare me or

1:25:24

impress me with it, right? Which is okay

1:25:26

because I wasn't going to get scared or

1:25:28

impressed anyway. But there

1:25:31

was something about it where he was

1:25:33

speaking to me in the language that

1:25:35

I understand, which is story,

1:25:37

character, philosophy, and

1:25:39

how it needs to look. Like Shabir would never ask

1:25:41

me like, what lens or something,

1:25:43

right? He would always ask me, he'll be

1:25:45

like, do you like this better? Right? What

1:25:48

does this, what does this feel like? Is it should be, should

1:25:50

get closer? Right? It's

1:25:52

really about the communication, right? Because the

1:25:55

truth is that like, I

1:25:57

knew what felt right. I

1:25:59

knew what. looked right. And

1:26:01

over time, the

1:26:04

collaboration is about downloading to

1:26:06

my whole team and not just

1:26:08

Chappier, but to production designer, everyone, costume

1:26:11

designer, everything

1:26:13

that I know. And then

1:26:15

they start to show me things that I couldn't

1:26:17

even have imagined. And they also show

1:26:19

me things that are perfect, like it's, it came

1:26:21

out of my dream. So I think

1:26:23

that it is about my

1:26:26

continuous communication of what

1:26:28

I know about it. And also the

1:26:30

things I don't know about it. Like,

1:26:32

for example, Skype section, I remember going

1:26:34

to my production designer and my DP and having

1:26:36

this conversation and being like, I have no idea.

1:26:38

I have no idea how to shoot that, right?

1:26:40

You tell me how it's and they were like,

1:26:42

and the truth is like, both of them, they

1:26:44

were like, we have no idea either. Right? Let's

1:26:46

figure it out. We'll find out. So I think

1:26:48

that there is such power in acknowledging the things

1:26:50

that you don't know. And I think

1:26:52

that was a very important thing in it.

1:26:54

I would say that like, there are certain things that I knew

1:26:57

really well. And then there are certain things that I

1:27:00

really didn't know. And then, and you'd

1:27:03

be surprised which is which, because you

1:27:05

would think that the really difficult scenes or the scenes

1:27:07

that you really remember as

1:27:09

a big cinematography scene or a

1:27:12

big scene, those are actually

1:27:14

much easier to know. And you

1:27:17

figure those out a lot sooner than

1:27:19

the scenes that like don't have as

1:27:22

much meaning,

1:27:24

the scenes that you call shoe leather, like, you

1:27:26

know, like the thing that is just supposed to

1:27:29

be there because you need it. Those

1:27:31

are the scenes where like me and my DP would sometimes

1:27:33

go and be like, I don't know how to shoot this one

1:27:35

because, right, because it comes like walk home,

1:27:37

we were like, we've been planning it for months,

1:27:39

like, you know, like, of course, the bar

1:27:42

scene, we've been planning it for months, so

1:27:44

we know exactly what we're doing. But the

1:27:46

scene like, you know, like Nora looking at

1:27:48

a laptop and being like, Hello, are you

1:27:50

there? Like that scene, like we were like, we don't

1:27:52

know where to put the camera really, we'll figure it out. Maybe

1:27:55

this one. Maybe this one. And so

1:27:57

I think it's funny because there's

1:27:59

always the easier things that are actually harder

1:28:01

to do and then vice versa. Hi

1:28:05

Celine. I'm a

1:28:07

second year student and

1:28:11

one thing that just really stands out I

1:28:13

mean again with everyone before, I love your

1:28:16

film so much. I think it's like so

1:28:18

amazing and wonderful what you did with your

1:28:20

team. Something

1:28:24

that makes this movie stand out so

1:28:26

much more to me than others in

1:28:28

a similar kind of romantic genre is

1:28:30

how it's almost

1:28:32

like what you said earlier. You were talking

1:28:34

about how much of it is like a

1:28:36

bilingual movie. How like these people exist in

1:28:39

two different worlds and like two

1:28:41

different languages and like in Spanish there's a saying

1:28:43

called Bahar Lamez Manuna which is like no matter

1:28:45

where you are you're under the same moon. You

1:28:47

know like you're still in the same world but

1:28:51

how did you arrive to the

1:28:54

conclusion that like that

1:28:56

was the way you wanted to tell the story?

1:28:58

Because one of the shots I remember so much

1:29:00

from your movie too is when they're talking in

1:29:02

the skype calls and it shows

1:29:04

it's like a panning live shot of like Seoul,

1:29:07

Korea and then it cuts to a panning right

1:29:09

shot of of New York City just kind of

1:29:11

in contrast. I just thought that was so beautiful.

1:29:13

Like how did you arrive to that sentiment? I

1:29:17

think that I

1:29:20

think this philosophy is always thought it's like

1:29:22

if it means something to you it's going

1:29:24

to be something to someone else. So

1:29:27

it will be worth doing if

1:29:29

it's something that means a lot to you. I

1:29:31

feel like it's like the director's job and

1:29:33

I think that of course before the director

1:29:36

is the writer's job it is to professionally

1:29:39

care. It's about if

1:29:42

you're a professional passionate person and you're sort

1:29:44

of the burning center of everybody

1:29:46

else's caring. So if I can't care

1:29:48

about telling the

1:29:51

story that hard then it's

1:29:53

going to be hard to convince anybody else the

1:29:55

hundreds of people who's working on the movie

1:29:57

to care half as much. You need

1:29:59

everybody to care. care at least as half as much

1:30:02

for the movie to get made. And

1:30:04

if you are passionate and

1:30:06

you're able to communicate your passion, then

1:30:08

in most cases, people are going to

1:30:10

want to match your passion in it. And

1:30:13

I think that, you know, like that shot, for

1:30:15

example, it's like, you know, like, we knew that

1:30:17

we needed to get that the

1:30:20

the two shots of the city and moving in

1:30:22

that direction, because we knew

1:30:25

that it was about a different time

1:30:27

of day that they both live.

1:30:29

So I think it's that I think

1:30:31

it's just a matter of like, well, what what

1:30:33

matters about it? And the person who has to

1:30:35

have an answer what matters about every single shot

1:30:38

is the director, the director has to know and

1:30:40

director has to believe. And before that the writer

1:30:42

has to know and writer has to believe. Yeah.

1:30:45

Selene on behalf of everybody, we can't thank

1:30:48

you enough for coming here and doing this.

1:30:50

And thank you so so much.

1:30:58

Thanks for listening to Awards Chatter. We really

1:31:00

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1:31:04

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1:31:20

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