0:00

Hey, this is Ernest Rolfson, the CEO and founder of Finexio. Welcome to

0:02

B2B Cashflow Conversations, the

0:06

podcast dedicated to sharing

0:06

insights and innovations in

0:09

business to business payments,

0:09

working capital and cash flow

0:12

management, and FinTech

0:12

entrepreneurship. In each

0:15

episode, my guests and I tackle

0:15

questions in the ever evolving

0:19

world of FinTech and payments.

0:19

An industry that's rapidly

0:22

evolving and of great interest

0:22

to investors and businesses

0:25

alike. Looking forward to having

0:25

this conversation.

0:29

Today we've got Dion Lisle,

0:29

Managing Partner at Forty Grand

0:33

and a thought leader in FinTech

0:33

for over 20 years. Dion recently

0:37

merged his advisory firm Facere

0:37

with investment bank MJC

0:43

partners to launch Forty Grand,

0:43

a consulting firm focused on

0:46

driving value for community

0:46

banks by delivering FinTech

0:50

focused innovation. Dion,

0:50

welcome to the podcast.

0:55

Great to see again,

0:55

Ernest. It's it's nice to

0:58

reconnect. It's been way too

0:58

long. I love what you're doing

1:00

at Finexio. Absolutely. What vineyard do you

1:01

have there in the in the

1:05

background? Oh, so it's funny. I have

1:06

slotted doors and they look like

1:10

they're moving on video. So I

1:10

had to cover it. And that is

1:12

just a random Sonoma County fall

1:12

vineyard picture. Just to

1:17

prevent the moving slats on

1:17

closet doors.

1:21

Lovely. So you're someone I

1:21

enjoy being around and chatting

1:29

with so much that I haven't

1:29

talked to you in several years.

1:32

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, in

1:32

order to get away from me.

1:39

That's right. That's right. But

1:39

you're always a good time and

1:41

have something very interesting

1:41

to say. So before we get into

1:47

what you're doing now, why don't

1:47

you share just kind of how you

1:51

got involved in this payments,

1:51

space? And we'll hear about how

1:56

you're a leader in it today,

1:56

which you are, but always good

1:58

to get some of the backstory. I appreciate that. I'm probably

2:01

one of the few who came into

2:04

payments and banking via

2:04

information security. So I

2:08

started in an obscure technology

2:08

called PKI, private key

2:12

infrastructure, very technical,

2:12

and I was with a company that

2:16

needed a vertical expert to get

2:16

them deeper into banks. And so I

2:20

looked at the technology and

2:20

started to think about how to

2:23

apply it for digital signatures

2:23

on treasury wire transfers,

2:28

letters of credit, trade,

2:28

finance. And I became that

2:33

expert just by attending silos,

2:33

AFP and other bank events. You

2:37

got to remember and we didn't

2:37

always have Money 2020 and, and

2:40

Finovate. We used to have to

2:40

meet bankers, you know, where

2:44

they actually hung out. And

2:44

there was no, there was no

2:47

FinTech back then. So I became a

2:47

vertical expert around trade,

2:51

treasury and payments. You started multiple startups

2:53

and multiple consulting firms.

2:56

You started Facere essentially,

2:56

to be the Rosetta Stone between,

3:02

you know, banks and FinTech

3:02

startups. You know, banks

3:06

really, as you know, have a

3:06

challenge navigating this this

3:10

FinTech arena, I guess, tell us

3:10

about that analogy or, or what

3:14

is this barrier that you and I

3:14

know well, but perhaps others

3:18

don't? I stumbled upon the Rosetta

3:18

Stone analogy when I was doing a podcast at Money 2020 Europe

3:20

with JP Nichols. And I happen to

3:26

just blurt that out because my

3:26

daughter had the Rosetta Stone.

3:29

She was learning Hindi at the

3:29

time and became fluent. So it

3:31

works. But to that point, yeah.

3:31

So I stumbled upon the Rosetta

3:40

Stone between banks and finte

3:40

hs. And you and I both know, we

3:46

ve dealt with the big banks

3:46

I'm one of the unusual

3:49

people. I've been in big ban

3:49

, Citibank data biggest paymen

3:51

s processor. And I've been in

3:51

inTech startups, early employe

3:55

eight, nine or 10, and a coup

3:55

e startups, some more succe

3:58

sful than others. And I realized

3:58

there was a huge language barri

4:02

r. And but not only language b

4:02

cadence, the way they oper

4:05

te, the way they look at

4:05

hings, the way they talk

4:08

hings, everything between th

4:08

se two worlds, like two giant g

4:11

ars that just couldn't match

4:11

right? And I thought, you know,

4:14

but they need each other, and I

4:14

ever really bought into the fint

4:18

chs gonna eliminate banks. I

4:18

never believed that narrati

4:20

e. And I'm glad to see most

4:20

eople that are past that. But I

4:23

really wanted to be the Rosetta

4:23

tone quite literally between th

4:27

se two disparate worlds and help

4:27

them work together to deliver

4:31

etter value for customers, wh

4:31

ther they be b2b or b2c.

4:41

Well, what are some of the

4:41

specific barriers to digital

4:45

adoption that you've seen?

4:45

asking how you overcome them is

4:49

is probably too simple of a

4:49

question, but maybe how have you

4:52

helped navigate or overcome some

4:52

of these things? And what are

4:55

some of the most typical

4:55

barriers that you're seeing?

4:58

Yeah, I think my favorite

4:58

expression I heard a while back

5:01

is "culture eats technology for

5:01

lunch", right? Yeah, it's always

5:04

down to people, right? You and I

5:04

both know that it's hard to get

5:07

people to understand the value

5:07

of technology and how it

5:10

improves their work. If they

5:10

keep pushing back. I've worked

5:13

on a project in Italy a couple

5:13

years back with trade finance

5:17

group, but we're doing this

5:17

pretty complex blockchain trade

5:20

finance letter credit thing. And

5:20

the ladies, they're all ladies

5:24

who ran the letter of credit

5:24

operation kept holding back

5:27

everything like no, we're not going to tell you how we do that. No, we're not going to

5:29

tell you how to do that. And

5:31

when it turned out, they were

5:31

afraid of being replaced before

5:34

they could retire. They were all

5:34

50 something and they thought,

5:37

look, I've worked for this big

5:37

bank, and I just want to retire

5:41

as you know, some letter or

5:41

credit person. And we never got

5:44

them over the hurdle of

5:44

understanding we were there to

5:46

help make their job better. So

5:46

now when I really look at

5:50

things, I really start with the

5:50

people and I really try to get

5:53

them to understand, we're here

5:53

to help make your job better.

5:56

We're not here to replace you.

5:56

Digital is a tool for you to

6:00

offer better service. I tell

6:00

community banks all the time,

6:03

personal service plus digital

6:03

equals concierge service. That's

6:08

what I want bankers to

6:08

understand more than anything.

6:10

So a lot of these places will

6:10

particularly in the community

6:13

backspace. They're coming in

6:13

with a low tech note, tech

6:17

environment. to a large degree

6:17

is that fair to say?

6:20

It's almost worse because what

6:20

they come in with is a we do

6:24

whatever if I ask jack Henry

6:24

tell us to do environment, which

6:28

is actually worse, because

6:28

they're they're almost captive

6:31

audience to that very narrow

6:31

view of technology.

6:34

Absolutely. Well, congrats on

6:34

forming Forty Grand. Tell us a

6:39

bit about you know that what was

6:39

the inspiration there? And I

6:42

guess the value you're trying to

6:42

bring to community banks with

6:45

that with that formation? Is it

6:45

more of the same? is there is

6:48

there some other element here

6:48

around FinTech oriented digital

6:53

technology for banks? Yes and no. So you know, I

6:54

realized two things one, after

6:58

Facere, three plus years, and I

6:58

on onboarding with the mega

7:03

banks was the hardest part of

7:03

that job. The actual work was

7:06

fantastic. Once you were on

7:06

board, I hated the onboarding.

7:09

Yeah, many banks don't have that

7:09

issue. And I met Mike and

7:12

Carlton, my partners in Forty

7:12

Grand. They run MJC partners and

7:16

investment bank for community

7:16

banks. And what they're doing is

7:20

they're in the boardroom talking

7:20

merger, acquisition divesture.

7:24

subordinated debt, really great,

7:24

high level financial stuff. And

7:28

they kept getting well what

7:28

about FinTech? What was what

7:31

should we do like, you know,

7:31

some bank just don't air quoting

7:33

FinTech or digital or

7:33

technology. And these are banks

7:37

between call 250 300 million and

7:37

5 billion they don't have the

7:41

CTO Chief Digital Officer

7:41

certainly don't have a CTO nor

7:44

should they. And their IT team

7:44

is literally a guy or gal with a

7:48

USB token going around updating

7:48

windows on laptops and

7:52

notebooks, like very low tech

7:52

footprint to your point. And we

7:56

realize this is an opportunity

7:56

to help these bags add value to

8:00

their footprint with digital

8:00

right. And so rather than work

8:05

with the large banks, I really

8:05

brought to 40 grand this focus

8:09

on Let's help these banks get

8:09

digitally fit. They don't need

8:14

to digitally transform, they

8:14

don't need a giant PwC Accenture

8:19

program. So the digital transformation,

8:19

change the whole back office, go

8:23

to the cloud, we've got to

8:23

everything is upside down.

8:26

Exactly, exactly. I even wrote a

8:26

blog about this digital

8:30

transformation is too big to

8:30

succeed, right. And it magazine

8:35

called digital transformation.

8:35

They said 80% of all digital

8:39

transformations fail later.

8:39

That's like Car and Driver

8:42

saying it sucks to drive a car.

8:42

Like that's a horrible way to

8:45

look at digital transformation.

8:45

And yet, that's the reality,

8:48

which is why I always talk about

8:48

one process at a time, get

8:52

digitally fit in onboarding, get

8:52

digitally fit that love mission.

8:56

Right?

8:57

I understand. So

8:57

it's almost like driving up the

9:00

value for them by being more

9:00

laser focused and bringing in I

9:05

don't want to say a point

9:05

solution but a purpose built

9:08

solution for the specific bank

9:08

pain point.

9:16

Yeah, that because I

9:16

don't want them to think too

9:18

narrow. But also I don't want

9:18

them to think boil the ocean

9:21

wide. It's about fixing a

9:21

process, a method, getting your

9:26

customers engaged digitally, as

9:26

well as the personal service,

9:30

that community banks rightfully

9:30

take a lot of pride on.

9:32

What's the

9:32

benefit here to the end user, to

9:35

the corporates, to the CFOs? And

9:35

how much would you say the banks

9:39

think about that? And I'd love

9:39

to hear to you know, how do you

9:42

view engaging with you and

9:42

engaging with FinTech more

9:46

broadly, you're one of the

9:46

whispers in the industry, how

9:49

does that help impact the bank

9:49

as well? Ultimately, yeah, so

9:54

see how much you think about the

9:54

end user and Endor your bet your

9:57

customers, these banks, think

9:57

about that. That'd be of

9:59

interest. To how that plays into

9:59

things?

10:03

Fair question. I

10:03

like to say all they're obsessed

10:07

with is their end user

10:07

experience, but their board of

10:09

directors, they have profit

10:09

margins that they have to meet

10:12

and all of that. But I will say

10:12

this community banks think a lot

10:17

about their small business

10:17

customers, they really feel

10:19

connected to them. And I think

10:19

this period of time, this

10:22

pandemic has shown us the value

10:22

of local, the value of our local

10:26

business, I know I've started to

10:26

shop at a local market instead

10:29

of the whole foods. I have a

10:29

local don't judge me liquor

10:33

store, it is pandemic time. So I

10:33

have a local liquor store I go

10:38

to. Only gonna judge you if you're

10:38

at the liquor store, eight times

10:41

a week, otherwise, we're no

10:41

judgement. Otherwise, you're in

10:45

a judgment free zone. Perfect. This guy's great. And I

10:48

go in, and he's like, hey, Dion,

10:51

how you doing? Hey, you asked

10:51

about the relationship.

10:57

And this is the bank, the banks

10:57

are investing more in the

11:01

relationship. Yes, they are. Particularly most

11:02

of the banks I work with talk to

11:07

see, evaluate the SMB, they

11:07

really want to find that perfect

11:14

balance, and their ideal

11:14

customer is high net worth plus

11:17

SMB million dollars net worth,

11:17

and they have a two to $3

11:21

million local business. That's

11:21

just a sweet spot. But those

11:25

customers are now demanding

11:25

digital, it's no longer enough

11:28

to go into the bank, shake

11:28

hands, say, Hey, Mike, how's

11:30

your business? Good to hear? The customers want more digital

11:34

tools? That's, and the bank is

11:38

driving a balance between making

11:38

these customers happy. And to

11:43

your point. They're not running

11:43

a charity. They're running a

11:46

bank and yeah, their drive for

11:46

profit margin as well here.

11:51

That's right. So to summarize

11:51

this element here, it's really

11:55

not about cost takeout, is what

11:55

I'm hearing. I mean, that may

12:00

drive some of it. You've talked

12:00

about some efficiency, but it

12:03

really is, it sounds like

12:03

investing in growth, investing

12:07

in capability, investing in

12:07

customer retention,

12:10

satisfaction, less about I want,

12:10

I'm trying to save a nickel and

12:14

cut some headcount here,

12:14

although I think you were gonna

12:17

say something there. Well, so they have something

12:18

they call efficiency ratio,

12:22

which, which I kind of like,

12:22

which is just, we want to grow

12:25

the business, but maintain ft

12:25

ease. I've not met anyone who

12:29

says I want to get rid of

12:29

anyone. It's mainly about I've

12:33

got 48 FTS, full time employees,

12:33

I just want to make them more

12:36

efficient. I want to go from

12:36

being a $500 million institution

12:40

to $800 million institution like

12:40

not adding anyone. Well, the

12:44

only way you fill that gap is digital. Well, we'll keep talking about

12:46

this. I wanted to say, is there

12:49

a unique way you have to work

12:49

with these smaller banks. And as

12:53

I understood it, you've got a

12:53

few different frameworks, the

12:57

paid framework, the fast

12:57

framework, in terms of driving

13:00

innovation with folks, is there

13:00

something unique that you found

13:04

is working with these types of

13:04

institutions that need to engage

13:08

in a unique way in this area?

13:11

Yeah, so I tell them, I said,

13:11

Listen, you know, you're a great

13:14

bag, you've done a lot of good

13:14

stuff, you don't have a Chief

13:17

Digital Officer, digital is one

13:17

of the most important things

13:19

now. I am your outsourced Chief

13:19

Digital Officer, all things

13:23

digital, I'm going to give you

13:23

valuation recommendation and

13:26

architecture and help you build

13:26

that digital footprint that you

13:30

need. The paid framework

13:30

actually built that for larger

13:34

institutions. But it works perfectly here. And that's parallel, agile, innovation

13:36

delivery. And the key is

13:39

parallel. I work in parallel

13:39

with the bank, I'm outside

13:42

pushing the project, you're

13:42

inside being a bank or doing

13:45

bank stuff. And it's agile, it's

13:45

fast, it's responsive, but it's

13:49

innovation delivery, because one

13:49

of the things I really started

13:53

consulting to avoid is

13:53

innovation theater, right? We've

13:56

all seen the innovation theater,

13:56

oh, this is such a great project

13:59

bubble never gets to market. I'm

13:59

not interested in that I want to

14:02

deliver. Now the fast the

14:02

flexible, autonomous, specific,

14:06

timely architecture that's

14:06

unique to community banks. And

14:09

really, this is a statement that

14:09

I want you to break away from

14:13

FiOS and jack Henry's roadmap.

14:13

Yeah, not rip and replace their

14:17

services or their their system.

14:17

But just break away and hollow

14:20

the core, build some services

14:20

around that you can later decide

14:24

if you want to. Yes, we're starting to work with

14:25

banks now ourself. You might

14:30

have seen Bank of California

14:30

invested here recently. So we're

14:32

working with those folks.

14:32

There's a number of other banks,

14:36

we're talking to you that have

14:36

come to us and they're like, we

14:38

love what you're doing. We love

14:38

your digital tools around

14:41

accounts payable. We want to

14:41

offer more of these capabilities

14:45

to our customers. We would love

14:45

to do more of this off of our

14:49

own rails or integrating our own

14:49

products or, hey, we have an

14:52

idea. We want to bring in real

14:52

time payments, how can you

14:55

support that and we're kind of

14:55

like well, what are your core

14:59

providers? Provide you what how

14:59

can you? What tools and services

15:03

do you have to be able to expose

15:03

to a FinTech to make it easy,

15:07

and let's talk about what the

15:07

timeframe is and what the

15:10

constraints are. And, you know,

15:10

you share that with these guys.

15:13

And they're kind of like scratching their heads and then haven't really considered that

15:15

and know how to know how to

15:19

leverage that. So it's funny you say that. I'll

15:19

build on that. So I got an RFP

15:23

RFI from the bank for a new rip

15:23

and replace core. All the

15:28

checkboxes, wires ach blah,

15:28

blah, blah, just checkbox. This

15:31

is this is great who you send it

15:31

to jack Henry FiOS, DCI said,

15:35

Well, what about a cloud? Bass

15:35

provider? Banking is certainly,

15:39

they're like, Dion, we wouldn't

15:39

know who to send it to. We don't

15:42

know what we don't know. So fair

15:42

enough. That's exactly what

15:45

Forty Grand is designed to do is

15:45

fill in that gap.

15:48

I think it is pretty hard to

15:48

find out what new things are

15:50

there. Right? Especially if in

15:50

your banker world, you can go to

15:55

those conferences, do you see

15:55

the banks wanting to or needing

15:59

to do the bleeding edge, or I

15:59

guess what's the maturity level

16:03

of the types of solutions you

16:03

can bring in that are even

16:06

palatable, because it's, it

16:06

feels like and I'm in this camp,

16:11

so I don't want to speak for you

16:11

but the FiOS is jack Henry's of

16:14

the world, or not probably the

16:14

best place that these folks need

16:17

to be looking for. If they

16:17

really want to do something that

16:20

is, you know, 2021 standard, you

16:20

know, that's really gonna have,

16:25

if they run it really want to

16:25

maximize delight. It's not going

16:28

to be with those big players at

16:28

all.

16:31

I can tell you, you're spot on,

16:31

the fact is, if you think of the

16:36

classic McKinsey three, horizon,

16:36

one, two and three, you know,

16:40

call it 12-18-24-36 months,

16:40

whatever, right? The fact is,

16:44

most of them are here. They're

16:44

their horizon, one, maybe

16:47

horizon two, maybe a couple

16:47

surprise areas that I've heard

16:51

from bankers, they're not looking at blockchain. They wouldn't even know what to think

16:53

about it right now. But back to

16:56

your point about the

16:56

conferences. Do you know what

16:58

the number one conference is for

16:58

community bankers? It is called

17:03

Aoba. Acquire or be acquired.

17:03

That is their number one. That

17:08

is their annual conference that

17:08

they all live to go to now think

17:12

about what that says about

17:12

community banks live or die. I

17:15

mean, that's where these banks

17:15

are, yeah, yes. help to prevent

17:20

being on the bottom of that food

17:20

chain when the ayoba conference

17:23

happens. They want to be the top

17:23

of that food chain. Right? And

17:26

to your point, FiOS Jack Henry,

17:26

all lovely people, blah, blah,

17:30

blah, all that, but those people

17:30

are not going to help you get

17:33

out of horizon 122. They're not

17:33

even at horizon one yet now. So

17:38

I really try to help them see

17:38

that. They're perfectly keep

17:41

your core, keep working with it,

17:41

hollow it work around. And that

17:46

sounds like what you're talking

17:46

to your bags about as well.

17:50

So I think it's the only path

17:50

that makes the path you're

17:53

recommending is the only path

17:53

that really makes any sense, to

17:56

be honest, which is exactly what

17:56

else would you do. The only

18:00

other thing is rip and replace

18:00

the whole thing, which is not

18:03

palatable for a lot of these folks. You know, it's funny, you look

18:05

at CEOs of the banks I'm talking

18:08

to and there's a bell curve,

18:08

there's an absolutely older

18:11

bankers forward looking ready to

18:11

make changes. And there are some

18:15

that are like, you know, what,

18:15

I'm five years from retirement,

18:15

What are the areas that they're

18:15

in the most need of call it

18:17

I don't want to be responsible

18:17

for a referee place that goes

18:19

badly wide bell curve there. But

18:19

what I am finding is the middle

18:24

of the bell curve is where they

18:24

really need the help. They're

18:26

really open to it, but they're

18:26

not quite sure how to make it

18:29

out. Those are the folks that I

18:29

get most excited about. Those

18:32

are the opportunities I enjoy. modernization or the areas where

18:38

they're in the most pain right

18:42

now. It's the basics. It's digital

18:42

onboarding, it's it's just right

18:47

onboarding, loan origination,

18:47

treasury services, their stack

18:53

is--Why, you know, it's a wire

18:53

system. That's astronauts, it's,

18:57

you've seen it, I know, you've

18:57

seen this. And, and it is a

19:00

matter of just getting them to

19:00

understand there are tools out

19:03

there. And to your point, you're

19:03

spot on. I had a banker said,

19:07

Hey, I'm going to Finovate I

19:07

said, Great. When we got back,

19:10

he's like, I don't know what to

19:10

say I'm overwhelmed. There was

19:13

so much there. Like, I don't

19:13

even know how to put this.

19:17

Which is where you would fit in.

19:19

I would hope that I

19:19

could help them make sense of

19:21

that. Absolutely.

19:22

Mm hmm. I guess

19:22

that's really interesting. So

19:26

how do you go about identifying

19:26

what the right solutions are the

19:30

right partners to bring in? And

19:30

what do you look for? Or is it

19:35

is it completely, that you have

19:35

a couple of key vendor

19:39

relationships that you you know,

19:39

feel like you can rely on bring

19:44

to customers, given that some of

19:44

these areas tend to repeat

19:47

themselves? Or how do you how do

19:47

you think about that?

19:50

Yeah, really what I start with,

19:50

and I've added this to the paid

19:54

process is at the front of the

19:54

gap analysis. Here's where you

19:58

are, here's the bank. You want

19:58

to be What's that gap? And then

20:01

stack order those to say, well,

20:01

onboarding luck, that's where

20:05

the relationship starts. You got

20:05

to improve onboarding. Let's

20:08

digitize onboarding first.

20:08

Second, let's look at your

20:11

Treasury stack. What are you

20:11

offering now? Well, that's

20:14

woefully insufficient. What's

20:14

next? What's next? And then

20:19

prioritizing that. But the other

20:19

step that I've added, honestly,

20:23

is a process audit. The number

20:23

of banks where I've sat with

20:26

their wire person, where their

20:26

lending team or whatever the

20:29

case may be said, well, you have

20:29

48 steps here. Why is that?

20:33

Well, we've always done it that

20:33

way. I'm like, No, you're not

20:36

allowed to say you've always

20:36

done it that way. What is this

20:38

step? What is this? And when you

20:38

break down the process, it's

20:41

amazing how many banks 10 year

20:41

old process never questioned.

20:46

And I can't imagine, earnest in

20:46

our line in FinTech world,

20:50

nobody's gonna accept the

20:50

process for 10 years with no

20:52

changes. We're even auditing and

20:52

asking the question,

20:56

Not if you're on a real, not if

20:56

you're at a real startup, for

21:00

real? Yeah.

21:01

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah,

21:01

it's all about efficiency.

21:04

So they don't even stop to ask the question, essentially. Exactly.

21:09

Because they're busy running in

21:09

the back, I get it. And no, and

21:11

and I was talking about the

21:11

other day, the bank started to

21:14

assign these tasks to people in

21:14

the bank. And I'm like, Well,

21:18

what about their day job? They

21:18

already had it. eight hour, 10

21:21

hour day job? How are you gonna

21:21

do that? Are you?

21:26

Sure. Well, it's it's just you

21:26

don't you don't you know, it's

21:29

everything's when you're at the

21:29

top. Let's say everything seems

21:33

easy. Oh, you can't fit that in

21:33

too? Oh, you can't do that as

21:36

well. What? You know what I

21:36

mean, it's not realistic. So

21:42

it's the same thing like what we

21:42

tell, right, our solution is

21:45

about digitizing accounts

21:45

payable payments. And well, you

21:50

could have your staff do this

21:50

themselves. But you've got to

21:53

onboard, like 2000 vendors to

21:53

pay. And so your staff could

21:58

just I guess, pick up the phone

21:58

and do that. But when do they

22:01

have time to do that? Aren't

22:01

they? Aren't they employed doing

22:05

something for you already? And

22:05

then are they trained to do

22:07

that? Do they want someone on

22:07

your team have the competency

22:11

and training to be able to have

22:11

a thorough negotiated

22:14

conversation around a number of

22:14

electronic payment options for

22:17

someone-- costs, speed, security

22:17

efficiency and be able to

22:21

navigate and complete enrollment around that? That's right. Yeah, an

22:23

operations person is not your

22:28

best innovation driver, right?

22:28

Operations people are very good

22:32

at rinse and repeat events,

22:32

right? And look at the

22:35

statistics. I wish I had pulled

22:35

this up. The number of

22:39

accounting finance departments

22:39

that don't close at the end of

22:43

the month, end of the quarter,

22:43

because they're behind, it's

22:45

most of them. Right? And why?

22:45

Because they're using Excel,

22:48

they're using outdated tools.

22:48

The bank information is not

22:51

coming in cleanly. It's not

22:51

Yeah, it's not scrubbed data.

22:54

There's no data, hygiene, all of

22:54

this stuff and to you and I were

22:57

like, Well, why would you do

22:57

that? We've always done that

23:00

that was the answer. Wrong

23:00

answer. Let's, let's stop the,

23:04

you know, the hamster wheel

23:04

address that and give you tools.

23:07

So that it's not a horrible end

23:07

of the month, end of the

23:09

quarter? I think two areas around this, I

23:10

wanted to kind of tease out I

23:13

guess what have you seen having

23:13

the biggest impact on your

23:17

customers on these banks so far?

23:17

Or even in the last three years,

23:21

let's say and you've been

23:21

engaged in the space force? I

23:23

mean, forever. Yeah. And so

23:23

you've got a lot of war stories,

23:27

but I guess what is making a big

23:27

impact and or accelerating the

23:31

impact and would love to hear

23:31

to, if anything, to your

23:34

knowledge impact on the end

23:34

customers and users? And? And if

23:38

so, what is that? What do you think that might be? It's pretty basic. And I, I

23:39

often talk to bankers about data

23:45

and they say, Yeah, okay, I hear

23:45

Big Data, Data warehouse. Data

23:51

to me is you enter it once. And

23:51

it's done. Right. And what most

23:56

people don't realize is the

23:56

number of times they enter data

23:59

and re enter data, I sat with a

23:59

wire transfer person, where she

24:03

took a PDF of a wire request and

24:03

keyed it all in I'm like, now

24:08

what do I request from Why? Why

24:08

is that data entered here? And

24:12

again, and then confirm that

24:12

Yes. Right. So my thing is,

24:17

that's the number one thing if

24:17

you think of data as enter once

24:21

use many, that would solve a

24:21

huge percentage of what I'm

24:26

seeing as the biggest efficiency

24:26

problem. And they're just used

24:29

to it. This woman lovely woman

24:29

doing a great job and rarely

24:35

made mistakes. Rarely in wire

24:35

transfers isn't enough. That's

24:42

got to be five nines like you

24:42

can never get right. I mean,

24:46

yeah, you're in the payments, you know that. Im thinking of Gattica--cool

24:48

movie, maybe that was 2001,

24:53

right where they've got rooms of

24:53

people, right and you're taking

24:55

drugs and you're bioengineered.

24:55

So you never have a bad

24:58

keystroke, and whatever and

24:58

that's, you know, they were

25:01

like, What? Why did something go

25:01

wrong in payments? What you mean

25:04

that one payment was screwed up?

25:04

And it's like, well, I'm at

25:08

these banks. They don't actually

25:08

have robots working for them at

25:13

these banks just wires or it's

25:13

actually people. And maybe 1.5%

25:20

of the time something will get

25:20

screwed up.

25:23

Well look at say that. Remember

25:23

the Citibank one that just short

25:27

time ago? Half a billion

25:27

dollars? They were like yeah.

25:33

Yeah, so we accidentally sent

25:33

you half a billion. Just send me

25:39

just send that back. That'd be

25:39

awesome. And yeah, awkward.

25:44

Did you read about it? So I

25:44

blogged about it. I remember

25:48

well, that. Well, no, it was for that bond

25:49

payment. If you were I think it

25:52

was a bond payment, and they

25:52

they ended up not getting some

25:55

of the money back. Right. And

25:55

they were holding it.

25:58

Money did not come back. Yeah.

25:58

Everyone says, Oh, they lost it.

26:02

No. But what they did was they

26:02

hold garbage bonds for a decade

26:05

at a loss rate. And they lost

26:05

and you know, we'll come back to

26:09

working capital, they lost the

26:09

ability to use that working

26:11

capital. And three people had to

26:11

sign off on that transaction to

26:16

those were not employees. Here's

26:16

a process question for you. How

26:19

do you allow a half billion

26:19

dollar process to be signed off

26:24

by two non employees of Citibank

26:24

using a system and I looked at

26:28

the screenshots. Ernest, you

26:28

guys like, Oh, my God, this

26:33

stuff was from the 80s. had to be. Green screen. Nonsense.

26:39

Yeah. Really? Nonsense. Yeah.

26:39

But but but now look at a

26:42

community bank that Citibank,

26:42

they have billions in IT budget.

26:46

And this has happened. Now let's

26:46

go to our friends at the

26:49

community back. What do they do?

26:53

It's the worst, if worse, if not

26:53

same. It's just on a smaller

26:57

scale less room for smaller scale, same issues.

27:00

That's it? Yeah.

27:03

So are the smaller banks, okay,

27:03

with I don't know, perhaps

27:08

ceding some control of some of

27:08

these things to, let's say,

27:12

third parties and or relying on

27:12

things that they didn't build

27:16

themselves or these new

27:16

processes. Because like, I think

27:19

on one hand, the bank may say,

27:19

oh, but we've got a tighter

27:21

control on this, because Wanda

27:21

is the one that's looking at it

27:25

eyeballing entering it in. Honestly, it's a bell curve.

27:26

Like I meet banks like that, but

27:31

most of them are in the middle

27:31

of this, like, we get it. We

27:34

know we're dated, we're

27:34

antiquated. work with us on our

27:37

budget and our timescale so that

27:37

we can break out of that. And

27:41

just like when I used to sell

27:41

the big banks, like discovers

27:44

city and others, you find that

27:44

champion, you know, you find

27:48

somebody that gets it and wants

27:48

to make the change.

27:50

How are they thinking about

27:50

technology and it and risk and

27:54

mitigation around that and

27:54

bringing new solutions to

27:57

customers? And we're certainly

27:57

white labeled by different folks

28:01

I'm sure some of the banks you're working with are just straight up turnkey, adopting

28:03

different tools that are out

28:06

there. Is this a stumbling

28:06

block? Or banks, especially

28:09

smaller banks, are they more

28:09

flexible and loose around this?

28:12

are they thinking about it in a

28:12

in a way that's pragmatic and

28:15

can make it work? Are they are

28:15

banks after all, so they are

28:18

heavily regulated and have

28:18

certain compliance things that

28:21

they're unable to be flexible

28:21

on? But I guess what are they?

28:23

What are they being flexible on?

28:23

What what has been creatively

28:29

adopted to make things work? Yeah, the outsource thing is no

28:34

pushback, because they've been

28:37

outsourcing their core to jack,

28:37

Henry FiOS and others for

28:41

decades, right? So the outsource

28:41

question, unlike the big shops,

28:45

never been an issue, okay, the

28:45

compliance piece is just a

28:49

matter of they want to get in

28:49

there and really see how it

28:52

works. And what are the touch

28:52

points? And where can they

28:54

influence it and that type of

28:54

thing. But as far as like the

28:58

actual outsource and all of that

28:58

non issue, little pushback on

29:02

the cloud, but that's just lack

29:02

of knowledge. They just don't

29:05

understand it. But but that

29:05

part's not been the issue.

29:09

Are they concerned about them

29:09

and their safety? Or their

29:14

compliance? Or and to what

29:14

extent is it more that they care

29:17

about their customers the CFOs

29:17

that they're working with and

29:20

those businesses or is it both

29:20

or is that nuanced? Not

29:24

I you know what I will say this

29:24

about community banks, I find

29:27

they talk about their customers,

29:27

both retail and mainly b2b much

29:31

more than the big banks did.

29:31

It's much more about our

29:35

customers need this. Our

29:35

customers asked us this. We need

29:38

to deliver this to our

29:38

customers. I will say enjoy that

29:41

change, going from the big shops

29:41

to the community banks, they're

29:44

much more our service matters.

29:44

Our reputation matters. This is

29:48

everything does our customers.

29:48

Happiness matters.

29:51

And we're talking about the big

29:51

boys we're talking about like

29:53

the top five biggest things

29:53

right they just is the blanket

29:57

statement. I think people would

29:57

agree. Care less bout service

30:00

care less about customers and

30:00

more like what commodity thing

30:04

can we push out there? It's its quarterly results

30:05

right? It's all about luck when

30:09

you're when you're city when

30:09

you're be evey when you're

30:11

JPMorgan. There, they all do a

30:11

okay job. I was opening my own

30:16

personal so I switched Facere's

30:16

bank account over, and I opened

30:20

with a big bank to remain

30:20

nameless. And I went into the

30:25

bank and they said, Oh, the

30:25

bankers out for the afternoon.

30:29

The teller offered to help me

30:29

fill out all the paperwork, open

30:33

the account all good. Went home,

30:33

got a text, you have to come

30:35

back. Oh, I missed something.

30:35

Come back why is this? She said,

30:47

Oh, because you did it with the

30:47

teller not with me, the banker.

30:51

And I said, that sounds like a

30:51

you problem, not a me problem.

30:54

You had all the information. You

30:54

just want to follow your process

30:57

for your purposes. So that you

30:57

the banker, protects your job, I

31:02

was actually kind of really

31:02

disappointed. It was about their

31:04

process, not my outcome. And you

31:04

could feel it, you can tell

31:07

that's exactly what happened. Yeah, no, they don't care about

31:09

your time.

31:13

I'm a small business person, and

31:13

they're gonna have me come all

31:15

the way back into the bank to

31:15

redo what I had done, because

31:18

the person who did it correctly,

31:18

thank you person. Isn't the

31:23

person according to their

31:23

process, their flowchart?

31:27

Shouldn't it be the outcome?

31:27

Right now? Not the process the

31:30

outcome? Yeah, it was compliant.

31:30

We didn't break any compliance

31:33

rules. Sure. And yet they made

31:33

me redo it all.

31:36

Sure. No, I get it. I get it.

31:36

Let's talk about what else

31:40

you're finding interesting. And

31:40

what's happening around FinTech

31:44

and payments. And I think this

31:44

is highly related to both what

31:48

I'm doing what you're doing. But

31:48

you're writing a lot. You're

31:51

blogging about cash flow and

31:51

cash flow management solutions

31:56

around that you've recently

31:56

wrote something about AP

32:00

automation and b2b payments, you

32:00

touched on it. It wasn't your

32:04

first but it was I think it was

32:04

in your top three areas that you

32:07

are kind of helping these banks

32:07

navigate with was around the

32:09

need for more robust digital

32:09

Treasury solutions. So what's

32:15

what's going on with this whole

32:15

Treasury cash flow Working

32:18

Capital Management, b2b payments

32:18

space? How are these banks

32:21

thinking about this? What are

32:21

you interested in about this

32:24

exciting about? Or what are you

32:24

promoting or pushing any, you

32:28

know, maybe narratives that

32:28

these banks should be thinking

32:30

about? navigating? Given I think

32:30

competition is kind of heating

32:36

up or anyway, investment

32:36

interest in capability

32:39

interested in minimum is enough? Yeah, yeah. No, underinvested

32:41

area, right. Right. The first

32:45

thing I discovered was I

32:45

mentioned to a banker. I said,

32:49

No, you know, there are programs

32:49

and I worked on a project that

32:52

first day that we failed full

32:52

disclosure, we were trying to

32:54

get our SMBs to give us their

32:54

data and process it and make

32:58

recommendations all that for a

32:58

variety of reasons fail. But I

33:02

mentioned this to a banker, he's

33:02

like, Oh, my God, I could

33:04

actually see my customers

33:04

QuickBooks, pull it in, analyze

33:08

it and make predictions in the

33:08

future. I said, Yeah, that is

33:13

now doable. It's not rocket

33:13

science. But if you're used to

33:18

going out to your customer site

33:18

with a notebook and taking

33:21

notes, coming back to the office

33:21

type, I mean, this is literally

33:24

what they do. And but they liked

33:24

that they liked that personal

33:26

service. And what I'm telling

33:26

them is, you can do that you can

33:30

do exactly. That's it. How much

33:30

better would you be as banker,

33:35

if you had your customers 90

33:35

days of QuickBooks, or even a

33:38

year of QuickBooks data, that

33:38

right in your systems analyze

33:42

and say, Hey, you know what,

33:42

Bob, your business is up into

33:46

the right, you should get another truck for your Electrician Business. Let's do a

33:48

working capital loan that gets

33:51

you that truck, those trucks

33:51

over $100,000. They're not

33:54

cheap. Let's do this. And here's

33:54

how you can pay for it. Here's

33:57

the kind of loan we could get

33:57

you. This guy was like, What?

34:00

That's possible. I'm like, it's

34:00

not even hard. This is this is

34:04

basic stuff, right? And they

34:04

were just blown away. I don't

34:07

know what you don't know, right?

34:07

I mean, that's the theme that

34:09

I'm finding with community

34:09

bankers. They want to do the

34:12

right thing they're trying to,

34:12

but they're using very manual,

34:16

very personal methods, instead

34:16

of digital plus personal to

34:19

deliver concierge. They're

34:19

starting to wake up to that. And

34:22

that's what excites me. Those

34:22

are the kinds of things that I

34:25

love. I think the education here is

34:25

digital tools enable more rich

34:30

personal interactions and

34:30

actual, more meaningful customer

34:35

engagement, and better and more

34:35

accurate advice. That's right,

34:41

especially in the predictive

34:41

side, leveraging trends and

34:44

analytics. That's right. You do

34:44

not need AI or machine learning

34:49

to get to the core of what a $10

34:49

million business needs to be

34:54

successful or one of these

34:54

couple billion dollar banks and

34:57

below. That's exactly I was telling you

34:58

about. Yeah, it's the basics. I

35:02

rent in Moran. And I moved here

35:02

a little while ago you're

35:06

You're still in Moran, right?

35:06

Yeah, to give you a large

35:06

selling or location away. Well, silent on

35:09

the town.

35:13

Yes, but but Moran's lovely but

35:13

I rent and my bank offers me

35:17

refi all the time and I'm like I

35:17

don't own you can see I don't

35:21

have a mortgage payment every

35:21

month you don't need an AI bot

35:23

from you know Stanford

35:23

University run it on a Cray

35:26

supercomputer to go, Hey, this

35:26

guy writes a check to a person

35:30

every month for this amount and

35:30

clearly doesn't have a mortgage.

35:34

You know what, let's stop

35:34

offering him refi. Let's offer

35:37

them something else. And yet

35:37

that basic knowledge that

35:40

context, bankers miss all the

35:40

time, whether it's b2b, or b2c

35:44

does matter. Bankers miss this

35:44

all the time. And you and I know

35:47

the tools are available, all you

35:47

got to do is look at the data.

35:51

And this is why I say back to

35:51

the first point data is

35:54

available, just look at get

35:54

comfortable with it.

35:58

They don't Well, they don't I

35:58

mean, and again, they don't have

36:00

the tools in place to get access

36:00

to the systems is the problem,

36:04

right? It's like everything is a

36:04

six month integration.

36:08

Everything is difficult.

36:08

Everything's a project. As you

36:11

know. I'm working on a project now

36:12

with the bank where they're

36:14

trying to get some FiOS data out

36:14

of their system. And they're

36:18

struggling with it. I'm like

36:18

it's your data?

36:22

Is there more to talk about that

36:22

trend, or there's some other....

36:26

Or what I would say to community

36:26

bankers, let's start with a data

36:30

structure, a data strategy, a

36:30

data schema, let's just get the

36:35

data hygiene going. And from

36:35

there, you're going to see all

36:39

these possibilities open up. So

36:39

that's one of the first things

36:42

is gap analysis, followed by

36:42

process audit followed by a data

36:46

strategy, then everything's

36:46

possible.

36:49

You gave some really interesting

36:49

examples. And the banks we talk

36:53

to want to increase non interest

36:53

income. And yes, right and

36:58

generate that that's a big

36:58

driver. Is that a big driver for

37:02

the customers you're engaging

37:02

with? And or do you see I think

37:06

this is kind of what I'm

37:06

formulating, what I'm seeing is,

37:09

yeah, net interest income, all

37:09

well and good, they love to have

37:12

new alternative sources or

37:12

additional sources of revenue.

37:15

But at the end of the day, if

37:15

you can put the bank closer to

37:19

doing more banker II stuff with

37:19

the client and or giving them

37:23

the data to your point to let

37:23

them better make a loan, they're

37:27

really happy. They really like

37:27

that, because that is really

37:30

what they know. But I think it's

37:30

like they say they want more fee

37:33

income, and they want to be able

37:33

to help customers with that. But

37:35

at the end of the day, don't

37:35

they just want a closer

37:38

relationship to be able to make

37:38

more make more loans and make

37:41

sure they don't lose those deposits? 100% I mean, you're you're spot

37:43

on growing deposits is one of

37:47

the keys and the one way they

37:47

look at it, and I'm trying to

37:50

help them understand the nuance

37:50

of this is they think, Oh

37:53

digital allows me to go out of

37:53

my geographic area. Therefore

37:56

deposits grow because a bigger

37:56

geographic area with 4800 and

38:00

something banks plus credit

38:00

unions in North America, there's

38:04

not a lot of geography

38:04

uncovered. I think our companies

38:08

will look at it now. Well, maybe

38:08

you need to do a niche or a

38:11

vertical or this or that. That's

38:11

not about geography. It's not it

38:15

just get closer to your

38:15

customers, stickier services,

38:18

better services. And and by the

38:18

way, I mean, there's so much

38:23

that small businesses spend they

38:23

spend 10s to hundreds of 1000s a

38:26

year on all these small business

38:26

services, bookkeeping,

38:29

invoicing, accounts payable

38:29

receivable, factoring all the

38:33

stuff that you're a specialist

38:33

in. And yet these banks sit

38:36

there and go, Oh, yeah, like no,

38:36

we don't do any of that. Yeah,

38:40

exactly. Exactly. And yet, the

38:40

there's a study from FiOS oddly

38:45

and pays that shows SMBs would

38:45

love their banks to offer these

38:50

services. Nice I saw I saw data

38:50

that showed 66% of SMBs don't

38:56

believe their bank understands

38:56

their business they don't why

39:00

because they don't look at the

39:00

data they don't look at anything

39:02

beyond Hey Bob let's handshake

39:02

have lunch, smoke cigar whatever

39:06

you know golf you know, but

39:06

businesses move beyond that it's

39:09

digital now right on deck can

39:09

get you that loan like boom,

39:12

digital online, no friction.

39:12

Banks have to learn that digital

39:16

playbook not giving up the

39:16

personal I think their personal

39:20

is hugely important and I think

39:20

they get that but how to

39:24

implement it. They get nervous. You're you're pointing out

39:26

something that's it goes up

39:29

really into the middle market as

39:29

well where I live although again

39:32

some of these banking partners I

39:32

have you serve small businesses,

39:35

I certainly have very large

39:35

channel partners that are

39:38

dealing with small businesses

39:38

are having gamut and if you've

39:40

got 1000s of customers, there's

39:40

going to be some smaller

39:42

businesses in there and smaller

39:42

businesses need payments and

39:45

working capital management as

39:45

much as anybody else. But it's

39:49

you raise it really thing is it

39:49

like if you're a CFO, and you

39:52

need help in around financial

39:52

services. The first call is

39:58

probably not to your bank. These

39:58

days, isn't that amazing? It's

40:02

not your bank, it's you're on

40:02

the Google. And you're looking

40:05

for some software thing. And

40:05

it's some subscription. Or

40:09

you're looking at your

40:09

accounting system, or maybe

40:12

you've adopted accounts payable

40:12

software or tierpoint. On Deck

40:17

is now provided, right? But no

40:17

platforms like that are

40:20

providing loans. And so would

40:20

you would agree with this

40:23

statement, or this general

40:23

theme, that the bank is

40:27

basically at risk of being

40:27

disintermediated?

40:30

Yeah. Now the funny thing about

40:30

a lot of banks I talked to they

40:33

go, Oh, I don't care about you

40:33

know, Shopify, or Amazon or

40:37

square capital. Those are the

40:37

loans I don't care about. All I

40:39

care about is loans. Okay.

40:39

There's a great quote from

40:43

Ernest Hemingway book that he

40:43

wrote, where he's, you know,

40:47

character says, How did you go

40:47

bankrupt slowly at first, then

40:51

all of a sudden, with these

40:51

banks don't realize you let

40:54

these guys at big tech, eat the

40:54

edge of your business, and

40:57

suddenly your box is much

40:57

smaller, and you're less

40:59

important, and that stickiness

40:59

and that relationship

41:02

deteriorates. Every time you let

41:02

the edge of that box get

41:05

smaller. What I'm encouraging is

41:05

no- be more integrated to your

41:10

business customers, not just for

41:10

the big loans, because that's

41:12

where the profit is, be there

41:12

when they need you. You know,

41:16

what is the bank? But if not,

41:16

you know, and you know, George

41:19

Bailey classic, you know, it's a

41:19

wonderful life. It's it's the

41:23

banker that's there when you

41:23

need them.

41:25

Right? That's the way it used to be.

41:29

I think it can be I

41:29

really, yeah.

41:32

So what's next

41:32

for you? in this industry? What

41:37

what are the plans for 40?

41:37

grand? What are some of the

41:42

other trends you're seeing?

41:42

Where do you think community

41:45

banking as a whole is going give

41:45

us some, you know, future future

41:49

state? Where's, where's the

41:49

world headed?

41:51

So I'm pretty

41:51

excited. So I worked with the

41:55

folks at Money 2020 and they let

41:55

me do a community bank workshop

41:58

on Sunday as the event opens.

41:58

And so I've got some folks out

42:02

in October, this October live in

42:02

Las Vegas, it's gonna be great.

42:07

Excited to be back to it, right.

42:07

And we're gonna have somebody

42:11

from the clearing house, talk

42:11

about how community banks can do

42:13

RTP. I'm going to talk with a

42:13

ModusBox, the founder of

42:18

ModusBox, David Wexler, we're

42:18

going to talk about how banks

42:21

can evaluate a new bass platform

42:21

in the cloud, right? We're gonna

42:25

have somebody from Nidek Tammy

42:25

Banks, who knows community

42:28

banks, really well talk about

42:28

how they can do Bitcoin, you

42:32

know, digital assets, community

42:32

banks can do this with nidek,

42:35

right? And we're gonna have this

42:35

whole agenda the morning from 10

42:40

to like, 1230. Just how

42:40

community banks can do more

42:44

digital, Nimbus is going to

42:44

present a couple others. And I'm

42:47

really excited about that,

42:47

because I think this is the

42:49

first step to getting community

42:49

banks welcome in the money 2020

42:53

community and environment,

42:53

getting them to understand

42:56

technology is not scary digital

42:56

lean into it. I was at move

43:01

moov. The crew out there went to

43:01

their dev conference in Denver

43:05

two weeks ago, fantastic. There

43:05

were only four bankers there.

43:09

Four. Now it's a it's a FinTech

43:09

dev conference for bankers. Now

43:13

maybe they're intimidated,

43:13

because I was in a session, they

43:16

pulled up code on the screen,

43:16

and I was over the tips of my

43:18

skis.

43:18

Yeah, that's well, that's not ideal.

43:21

Well, for me, it's

43:21

not. But what I liked about the

43:24

conference in general was this

43:24

focus that and they open it with

43:30

developers are going to develop

43:30

the future, let's work with

43:33

them. Let's not be afraid of

43:33

that. The final thing that I'm

43:37

really excited about, honestly,

43:37

of course, AI, ML data, blah,

43:40

blah, blah, low code, no code

43:40

systems, I think they have a ton

43:44

of potential for community

43:44

banks, get a business analyst

43:47

gets really good at a low code,

43:47

no code platform, and begin to

43:50

redo your process, right. And

43:50

then you can update it

43:53

regularly. Everyone can buy into

43:53

it, it can be more of a team

43:56

sport, instead of just

43:56

delivering this technology that

43:59

no one understands.

44:01

So like process,

44:01

automation style back-end

44:05

business. Yeah, machine to human

44:05

to machine interactions.

44:09

Exactly.

44:10

Third Party integrations.

44:11

I use monday.com for

44:11

everything. It's a no code

44:14

platform, and I'm not a coder,

44:14

right? I coded in college and

44:17

basic and COBOL to show you how

44:17

old I am. And then I just

44:21

decided that I'm not a coder.

44:21

But I have the business mind. I

44:23

like the business analysis. I

44:23

like the process. Monday.com

44:27

allows me to manage my own day

44:27

to day business very easily with

44:30

no code. There are platforms

44:30

more sophisticated than Monday

44:34

that a bank could use to deliver

44:34

these automations between

44:39

departments, between customers

44:39

and back office and that type of

44:42

thing. That I'm really excited.

44:44

I wanted to ask

44:44

Would it be okay if bigger banks

44:48

engaged in attended that

44:48

community banking event at Money

44:51

2020 like And would it be

44:51

relevant for them? What is the

44:54

unique element right now about

44:54

community banks, we have to

44:57

engage with them in a different

44:57

way. L

45:02

Yeah, I mean, yeah,

45:02

no, you bring up a good point. I

45:05

mean, it's Yeah, absolutely

45:05

relevant for any banker who's

45:09

not yet doing digital assets,

45:09

doing RTP. Looking at bass as a

45:16

service, it's relevant for any

45:16

and all of them. What also it's

45:21

good for is just getting the

45:21

dialogue of FinTech to bank,

45:25

Rosetta Stone, get them talking,

45:25

get them understanding the other

45:28

side of the aisle. I think

45:28

that's really key.

45:31

That makes

45:31

sense. Well, any parting

45:34

thoughts here? Before we wrap

45:34

up, or anything we didn't touch

45:37

on that we really should have?

45:39

you know, we should probably do another one in the near future where you and I,

45:43

we should probably talk more

45:43

than once every, like, four

45:45

years or something? Yeah, let's make a note of that.

45:46

Yeah, let's talk working capital

45:50

next time and kind of what

45:50

Finexio is doing and how you

45:53

help mid-tier businesses deliver

45:53

on that, because a lot of the

45:56

banks I've talked to, you know,

45:56

they focus on SMBs. But they go

45:59

up to the mid tier, you know,

45:59

SMBs grow up.

46:02

No, no, that's what we're

46:02

helping them. I mean, the banks

46:05

that we're working with right

46:05

now is they serve a range of

46:09

customers. And we're working

46:09

with more the bigger side of the

46:13

small side, if that makes sense.

46:13

We're not working with the mini

46:16

ones. And we do have investors

46:16

that are invested in on the

46:19

board of a number of community

46:19

banks. So we are able to gain

46:24

and have dialogue around some of

46:24

these insights that you've been

46:26

sharing. And the good news is, I

46:26

think what we hear from our

46:29

investors and that are sit on

46:29

these bank boards is similar to

46:33

what you're sharing in some of

46:33

these challenges. So always good

46:35

to be validating and, and

46:35

talking through these topics

46:39

with smart people, if they have

46:39

a 15% of their business is with

46:42

some of the larger clients. They

46:42

want to keep those larger

46:46

clients, they want to serve

46:46

those larger clients, they want

46:48

a more robust tool set, they

46:48

want better, digital modern

46:54

tools improve the consumer

46:54

experience, because they're

46:56

concerned that maybe there's a

46:56

path of graduation away from the

47:00

community bank, to a chase to a

47:00

wells to a bank of america, and

47:03

they're like, Hey, I don't offer

47:03

accounts payable payments as a

47:07

service. I don't offer Working

47:07

Capital Management, I don't have

47:10

digital reporting that someone

47:10

is kind of showing them over

47:14

here, right. And so it's like,

47:14

it's almost that bells and

47:16

whistles component, that you

47:16

want to be relevant to

47:19

everybody. But the bank can't be

47:19

doing a custom build out to have

47:23

something that's going to serve

47:23

all these. Some of these

47:26

customer needs are a little bit

47:26

different. And yeah, the big

47:28

banks can get more away with it.

47:28

And the bigger banks can have

47:31

dedicated teams and resources

47:31

and Dev and products for all

47:35

different types and sizes of

47:35

customers. You can add a larger

47:39

community bank. Personal matters, but digital

47:42

can be the difference maker

47:45

anzai encouraged community banks

47:45

again, here's your personal

47:49

service. You're known for it.

47:49

It's great. Here's digital,

47:51

here's concierge service. Keep

47:51

working on that spectrum to

47:55

deliver that better touch.

47:57

Again, Dion, thank you so much.

47:57

This was a convo with Deon Lisle

48:02

at Forty Grand. Look, man,

48:02

always fun. This was great. I

48:07

learned a lot. Hopefully the

48:07

audience learned a lot got

48:10

something of interest from it. I

48:10

know I did. Let's sit down. If

48:14

we can grab a coffee or

48:14

something at Money 2020 I will

48:16

be out there. That I'll be good

48:16

too. It'll be good to reconnect

48:20

with you sincerely. Thank you so

48:20

much, man.

48:27

Thanks for listening to b2b cash flow conversations. This is Ernest

48:29

Rolfson, the CEO and founder of

48:32

Finexio. I welcome your

48:32

questions and comments. You can

48:36

reach me at [email protected]

48:36

You can also find us on Twitter

48:41

@FinexioPayments. To subscribe,

48:41

you can go to

48:44

Finexio.com/podcast. Be sure to

48:44

check out my new episodes on

48:49

Apple podcasts, Spotify, or

48:49

wherever else you listen to

48:53

podcasts. Thanks and talk with

48:53

you again soon.