0:00

Hello , dupada , and welcome to Bad Boy Running

0:03

. I've just finished up our interview with Brian

0:05

, who I've been on tour with for

0:07

the most part of this year . Really

0:10

really interesting conversation . He

0:12

started Trail Runner . He knows more about Trail

0:14

Running than pretty much anyone else on earth . During

0:17

this episode we go into not

0:19

only him

0:22

being caught in the middle of a bit of a battle

0:24

between Gary Robbins and UTMB

0:27

and over

0:29

the most recent race we're talking about the future of

0:31

Trail Running but also how Trail

0:33

has changed , how the media around Trail

0:35

has changed and how the art of storytelling

0:38

and Trail Running has changed

0:40

over that time . Really cool episode . You're

0:43

going to love it . You're going to find out so much

0:45

about Trail

0:47

history , so strap in Hope

0:49

you enjoy . They're

0:51

bad , they're boys and

0:54

occasionally they talk about running

0:56

.

0:56

Yes , it's the Bad Boy Running podcast

0:59

with your hosts Jody Rainsford

1:02

and David Heller .

1:19

So do bad . As our next guest I met

1:21

for the first time in actually , I

1:23

kind of remember where it was Was it Switzerland

1:25

, somewhere like that , Maybe Italy ? And

1:27

he was introduced me as , like you know , that

1:30

is like Trail Running royalty

1:32

set up Trail Running magazine and

1:35

still writes for them and outside magazine

1:37

has been on tour with Gone Trail

1:39

for many of the races this season Absolute legend

1:41

. Welcome to the podcast , Brian Metzler .

1:50

Hey man , Happy to be here . Thanks for having me .

1:53

Oh mate , absolute pleasure . Yeah

1:56

, and if anyone is not

1:58

watching the video , because we don't really publish our

2:00

videos , brian is sat in front of an

2:03

amazing array of objects he's got

2:05

signed Usain

2:07

Bolt shoe . Is that a hula

2:10

girl at the top ? Some medals

2:12

.

2:13

That is a hula girl . There's some race entries , there's

2:16

a lot of media tags there , there's

2:19

a picture of me running in Chile

2:21

and also there . And then this

2:24

is a mock up of a cover for a magazine I used to

2:26

work for , called competitor , which has Mike

2:28

Wardian you lose that , mike .

2:30

Yeah , I could say .

2:31

We were to Cuba . We were to Cuba in 2016

2:33

and kind of told a story about running

2:36

kind of where the

2:38

Cuban revolution took place , where Fidel Castro

2:40

hung out in the mountains and stuff like that , and so it

2:43

was an interesting adventure for sure .

2:46

How did like I , because I

2:48

wouldn't say fully understand America's relationship

2:51

with Cuba . Still

2:53

Like how did that story go down

2:55

, given that it seems to be not

2:57

fully kind of outworn

3:00

? Yeah ?

3:01

It's still a challenging relationship . I

3:03

mean , the embargo against

3:06

Cuba dates back to the

3:08

60s , when they had communist involvement

3:10

, right , and so everything was cut

3:12

off between it's , only 90 miles from

3:14

Florida , and everything was cut off generally

3:17

, politically , commercially , and

3:20

as Castro developed his

3:23

communist government , which you know I'm

3:25

not a fan of . I think that's , you know , talk

3:28

for another day . But essentially the embargo is

3:30

still in place . But during the Obama

3:33

administration there was a more humanitarian opening

3:35

between the countries and for years journalists

3:39

could go down there and

3:41

there was other humanitarian like ways to interact

3:43

with the people there . And then during

3:45

the Obama administration obviously Obama had gone down there

3:48

there was more , a little bit more opening

3:50

, right , the Rolling Stones played there

3:52

, for example . But we went down there on

3:55

a humanitarian mission and

3:57

brought shoes and then engaged

3:59

with grade

4:02

school , middle school runners . We

4:04

put on a little track meet for them . They had 100

4:06

meter dash long , jump , 400

4:09

meters and a couple other things . And then we had

4:11

all these shoes we had brought from the US

4:13

, some new , some donated , and

4:15

then we gave them awards . We gave them like pencils

4:18

and notebooks , school supplies as

4:20

awards , you know . So it

4:22

was a really good experience . And then while we were down there we

4:24

were able to connect with a lot of locals

4:26

, we ran some trails and everything else , and so I

4:29

think that part of it was well received . Obviously

4:31

, the whole you know Castro and the government

4:33

, everything else is still a pretty sticky area . And then

4:35

, obviously , as our administration changed here

4:38

for the worst , obviously it's been a little bit darker

4:40

in a lot of ways , but the

4:43

Cuban people are wonderful people . They were

4:45

very warm and very receptive and

4:47

obviously athletics is part of their

4:49

culture for sure , and so that's

4:52

really how we engaged and the kids are just beautiful

4:54

. You know , kids are just full of joy and you know

4:56

seeing them run and everything was a beautiful

4:58

experience .

5:00

Oh , fantastic . So let's take it

5:02

back to when this journalism began

5:04

then , because it was was

5:06

Trail Running Magazine your first step

5:09

into kind of running journalism

5:11

.

5:13

Generally , yes , I had been a journalist in

5:16

my 20s and was actually

5:18

started , started Trail Runner in my late 20s

5:21

. I'd been , I'd worked

5:23

for newspapers , like everyone did , in journals , and you know a few

5:25

magazine pieces here and there . I was keen

5:27

on running . I understood running . You

5:29

know , as with a lot of big

5:31

city daily newspapers , everyone

5:34

knows the big sports . You know football

5:36

, soccer , basketball , you know , and

5:40

you know it was always good for me to write about

5:42

running because I knew about running . So when there was a 10k

5:44

in town or whatever , I could write about that pretty well . And

5:46

then I just found more opportunities

5:49

being in Boulder , I moved here in my early

5:51

20s to be able to to

5:54

write about running in runners . There were so many runners

5:56

here in town , you know , and so that

5:58

just kind of became a natural fit . And then I was

6:01

writing about running and then this

6:03

, this rock climbing magazine in Boulder

6:05

, wanted to start a trail running magazine because

6:08

it was a natural fit for what they were doing in the outdoors

6:10

and kind

6:13

of we met a bunch of times and then you know that

6:15

was that was basically day one . And then , you

6:17

know , within it , within probably eight months , we launched

6:19

the first issue of the magazine and

6:21

you know , obviously it's . You

6:24

know , back then trail running wasn't a

6:26

real kind of known

6:28

sport but you know it's still maybe

6:30

kind of sort of on the fringe of mainstream

6:32

and we see it , we know it , we think it's an everyday

6:35

thing and obviously if you pull back to you know your

6:37

friends in the cities they don't really understand it as much . But

6:39

certainly back then it was , you

6:41

know , the early , the early days of trail running , even

6:43

though there was a history that goes back further than

6:45

that . But you know I did my

6:48

first trail races in the mid 90s and

6:50

you know it was trail running quite a bit in Boulder and

6:52

yet you know , I know that like in a bigger picture , it

6:54

wasn't yet established . So by the 2000s

6:57

obviously got more growth . We saw more

6:59

, more growth in trail running

7:01

brands and such and it's kind of taken off there

7:03

Now obviously there's a lot of content

7:05

, a lot of excitement , a lot of races , a lot

7:07

of gear built for

7:09

trail running . So that's kind of my quick evolution of

7:11

me as a journalist , but also me as a runner and kind

7:14

of a passionate fan of the sport .

7:16

Because these first few , these articles

7:18

, would you ? What

7:21

would you say the main

7:23

content was Were you talking about races

7:25

? Were you talking about athletes ? Were you talking about

7:27

locations , different

7:29

countries , Like ? What was the balance of

7:32

articles ?

7:34

Yeah , I think that , like you know , it was still to

7:36

those involved , it was still , it was already a sport , right

7:38

. I mean , like at that point , the Western States

7:40

100 , for example , had been going on for 25

7:44

years , right , but

7:46

, like , we

7:48

certainly did talk about athletes and races

7:50

, a lot of it was ultra focused , if

7:52

only because that's what the identity was of the sport

7:55

. I think back then , when we

7:57

even know a lot of my runs in

7:59

Boulder were , you know , you

8:01

know , 5k to 10K Johnson

8:05

and mountains here , right , and that was very much trail

8:07

running . But , like most of the sport

8:09

, most of the community around trail

8:11

back then in America was very

8:14

ultra based . You know a lot of ultra races

8:16

. So it

8:18

kind of that's kind of where it started

8:20

.

8:21

And do you think the , the

8:24

identity was caught up with the ultra is

8:26

because Western States was almost first

8:28

of all of the big races and therefore that's

8:31

where people started and therefore

8:33

assumed that was the norm .

8:36

I think . So I mean , I think that there was always

8:38

a lot of other shorter races , you know , hill

8:40

climbs and little mountain races , and

8:42

you know we didn't have

8:44

quite the culture that the UK

8:46

has around around fell running , but

8:48

we did have some of those races , but they're all very

8:50

regional in pocket . So a lot

8:52

of , a lot of our mountain towns

8:54

, a lot of our ski towns there was always , you know

8:56

, dating back to the , you know , the

8:59

early 1970s . There was a lot of either

9:01

fundraiser runs or just fun summer

9:04

runs where people would say , oh , let's run to this peak and back

9:06

right and like , but very regional in nature and

9:08

like . Obviously every one of these towns

9:10

has some characters that have been doing crazy

9:12

things for a long time and that's kind of where that evolved

9:14

. But in terms of developing

9:17

a community or developing kind of

9:19

an understanding of what this was

9:21

or something to train for , western States was probably

9:23

the first kind of , you

9:25

know , piece on the map that

9:27

really said , okay , here's what this sport is and people

9:29

you know would train for it or want to be

9:31

next to it or , you know , aspire

9:34

to go to it , and then certainly

9:37

the legend of that brew in those first , you

9:39

know , in the 1970s and through the

9:41

80s , and then when we first had some

9:43

some , some TV coverage , you

9:46

know there was a there used to be a show called the wide world

9:48

of sports on every weekend and

9:51

they would , they would do that , you know , kind of a more obscure

9:53

sports and a couple of those

9:55

had , like the lead bill , 100 , I think Western

9:57

States was on there , iron man was on there , and

9:59

so when people got a glimpse of those from a national audience

10:01

, they're like what ? What is that Right ? And

10:04

it was just so fascinating

10:06

because it was these people doing these extraordinary things

10:08

. You know , the whole concept of running 100 miles

10:10

back then was , you know , it

10:13

was still as the most people , but we

10:15

know it's a little bit more common now . But that's that's

10:17

kind of what set all that in motion and

10:20

it also kept it very niche because even

10:22

with that audience seeing 100

10:24

mile run , most people were never

10:27

going to do that . They were going to , they were going to see

10:29

that and be overwhelmed but and think it was cool

10:31

. But obviously even through the

10:33

years it's taken a long time to get growth into

10:36

that and still we're . You know it's a small sport

10:38

relative to people

10:40

that are doing hundreds and now 200s and everything

10:42

else . Yeah , I think especially

10:45

pre internet as well .

10:45

If you say you were even a marathon

10:48

runner , the distance between the

10:51

gulf of how it feels between that and 100

10:53

mile trail run when you can't just

10:55

go online and see all these people training

10:57

, you can't find all these training plans

11:00

easily . It must have felt like

11:02

another world , given

11:04

that the likelihood is they'd all be from different

11:06

locations anyway , and

11:08

because I know when . Last year

11:10

this year , sierra is now 50th anniversary

11:14

and there were some pretty

11:16

big names from America coming over to

11:18

race and and you're doing really well

11:20

winning . When when would you say

11:22

when would you say you ? From

11:25

your perspective , trail running was

11:28

actually a global

11:31

, more of a global sport that someone

11:33

in one area who was good would be aware of the

11:35

other races .

11:38

Yeah , I think that didn't really take place until gosh

11:40

, the early

11:42

2000s , and I want to say that maybe 2004

11:46

or five , some really good runners

11:48

from from Boulder started

11:50

to go over and compete in European

11:53

races and I think , combined

11:55

with the internet , certainly that was those two

11:57

things went hand in hand . There were athletes

11:59

top , you know , mountain athletes

12:02

from Colorado , from USA , that

12:04

would compete in Europe , but on a very niche level , like

12:06

there was a guy named J Johnson

12:09

, who was a Boulder guy who I

12:11

think was like a , might have been like

12:13

a World Cup winner back in 1990

12:15

, which was , I think it predated World Cup races , predated

12:18

the World Mountain Running Association , the

12:20

World Mountain Championships , which was called the

12:22

World Mountain Trophy , I think , for a part of

12:24

time . And so there was people , there was runner

12:26

back then that went over there and did well , but

12:29

at a very kind of tiny level . Eventually

12:32

, I

12:34

think , with with more runners going over there to

12:36

compete and compete well , and then

12:39

the internet obviously you

12:41

know broadcasting , that news became a thing

12:44

and then I think certainly you know you

12:46

know there was always great races and

12:48

as some overseas runners came

12:50

to the western states , right , that was a thing

12:53

You'd notice , you know , a British runner

12:55

, a Japanese runner , you

12:58

know , finding a way into the process and then

13:00

getting into the race became

13:02

a big thing and so that's the trickle

13:04

back and forth started , started to happen for sure

13:06

, probably in the early 2000s

13:09

, on a scale of

13:11

which it was noticeable . And then

13:13

, I think around that same time , obviously , utmb

13:16

was launched in 2003 . And

13:18

you know , chrissy Mail was over there , brandon

13:21

Szebrowski , a Topper Gaylord , were

13:23

prominent in the first race and

13:25

I think you know then other

13:27

Americans started to follow over there , although it didn't

13:29

really become a thing over here , even

13:33

for me in the running media until

13:35

much later , I had known Chrissy back then

13:37

she told me about it and I know you took the Topper

13:39

and they had told me about it , but it still

13:41

didn't catch on because it was such a you know , oh

13:43

, it's happening over there kind of thing . And but

13:47

during that early 2000s , like 2003

13:49

, four , five , six is when it really started to happen , I think

13:51

that the opportunity to race overseas

13:54

in different places certainly became more of

13:56

a thing , right ?

13:58

And because now we've seen , like you know

14:00

, Jim's moved over and he spent

14:02

a year or so in well

14:04

, more than a year in Chamonix to try and win UTMB

14:07

. You get people typically traveling

14:09

for the 100s in a

14:11

six weeks in advance at least to

14:14

get to know the courses . When

14:16

there was suddenly more of crossover

14:18

, were we seeing athletes being

14:20

able to perform because even the

14:22

local athletes didn't know actually how

14:25

to properly approach their local

14:27

race , or did we see , well , most people taking

14:29

a beating whenever they traveled ?

14:32

Yeah , I mean , I think it took a lot to adapt

14:34

. I think that even though Chrissy Maill

14:36

did well she won it twice and actually

14:39

a lot of American women did well upon

14:41

arriving and certainly

14:44

getting there early was a big part of that I think a lot of American

14:46

men failed kind

14:49

of famously . Scott Jurick

14:51

went there , anton Kropitschka , I mean a lot of athletes

14:53

went over there to

14:55

run . Hal Kerner was a famous one , I think , in 2011

14:57

. It took him , I think he got through the course in

15:00

Chamonix in like 44 hours or something crazy

15:02

like that . But , that being said , it wasn't

15:04

for a lack of being skilled or talented

15:06

or well-trained , I think , going

15:09

anywhere to a course it even Kylian

15:11

didn't fare as well as he did in

15:14

his first Western states , right , coming back this way

15:16

. So I think what

15:18

we know with ultra it's

15:20

certainly course specific , it's weather specific

15:22

, it's almost like culture

15:24

specific too . Right , understanding the vibe of

15:26

the race and kind of how it plays

15:29

out where , historically

15:31

, runners have done well , kind of where the course

15:34

dominates the runners , where the runners can dominate

15:36

the course . I think all those nuances

15:38

are certainly a big part of every single

15:40

race and

15:42

, let's face it , traveling on an

15:44

eight hour flight to a place that maybe

15:46

you don't speak the language , you're not familiar with , the food

15:48

or the customs , I think certainly is

15:50

a big thing and

15:53

not even remotely the same thing as

15:55

traveling from

15:57

Chicago to London to run the marathon right

15:59

, it's just night and

16:01

day difference . I think that there's

16:04

just so many new nuances and details that

16:06

come into that , and certainly I think runners

16:09

have learned yet to show up in a place , as

16:12

you said , six weeks or so more to

16:15

learn the course , but also to

16:17

immerse into local running

16:19

culture . Right , when Francois DeHaine

16:22

has come to Hard Rock or Killian has come to

16:24

Hard Rock in Colorado , it's

16:27

one thing to run the course , but it's also he's running with

16:29

locals . He's running with people , other Americans , people

16:31

who run the course , chatting over

16:33

a meal , over a beer , about this

16:35

part of the course , this section , what happens

16:37

after dark , things like that . And I think you learn

16:39

a lot from that cultural interaction

16:42

in the sport , which maybe you don't

16:44

get in like you know , opposing

16:46

teams don't get in football or basketball but

16:48

you definitely get that in our sport because the community

16:51

is so close , and so I think those pieces

16:53

have allowed the

16:56

internationalization to become more complete

16:58

now .

17:00

Yeah , absolutely , and

17:02

especially when you do

17:04

get tools . Now , where people are actually racing

17:06

, it's changing in 100 miles , given

17:09

that you can have Courtney

17:11

winning three , which is insane

17:14

, but you're more likely to see people

17:16

throughout the year , whereas previously you'd almost

17:18

meet the big ones and like

17:21

, when you look back though , what would you say

17:23

have been the big changes

17:25

, like the big seismic

17:27

shifts in trail and

17:30

in either the races or the individuals or

17:32

the kits that actually really

17:35

helped grow the sport ?

17:38

I think you know , as I said

17:40

earlier , there's been runners that have been running

17:43

trails , you know , in

17:45

mass since the 70s and 80s at certain

17:47

places . I think that the biggest couple

17:49

of things that have changed I mean certainly that community that

17:51

started swirling around that and people were inspired

17:54

to do that was always growing . I

17:57

think at the time , in the late 90s

17:59

, there weren't a lot of great trail running shoes

18:01

, you know , and

18:03

it varied , you know , around the world . You know there's

18:05

certain brands I know I had some of the Walshroners

18:08

right for fell running , but they were very specific

18:10

for fell running and then there was a bunch of brands

18:12

that were US based and some

18:14

more European based brands that were kind

18:16

of figuring out how to build

18:18

shoes right based on the background of that

18:20

brand . So Las Sportiva , which

18:22

is a great Italian climbing and mountaineering

18:25

brand , started from their own

18:27

point of view right . Nike and Brooks and

18:29

all these other brands started from a road running background

18:31

and , like a lot of the other boot brands

18:33

you know , vask and Merrill

18:35

, you know brands we know for hiking

18:39

came in from their point of view . And so even

18:41

in the early 2000s there weren't , you know , great

18:43

trail running shoes as we know now . And what do

18:46

I mean by great trail running shoes ? Two things . One

18:48

, they were runnable you could actually run in

18:50

them , right . And two , they had enough trail

18:52

specific kind of protection

18:55

or smarts , I would say , that

18:58

allowed you to run specific types of trails

19:00

, right . So you know , running in a road

19:02

shoe on trails we all know it's kind of awkward

19:05

, it can be damaging , you can

19:07

hurt your feet , whatever else . You don't have that much traction

19:09

. And so by the early 2000s , 2003

19:12

or so , there was a few models , but

19:14

they still weren't as evolved as they are now , and

19:16

so now I think fast forward . Now the

19:18

biggest change in running shoes is we have shoes

19:20

that are specific to different types

19:22

of terrain , right , if you want to run through muddy

19:25

, sloppy terrain , there's a lot of great shoes with

19:27

a really good kind of pleated

19:29

outsole , like , you know , knobby outsole

19:32

. And then we also have shoes that are

19:34

great for running on hard rocks and everything

19:36

else , and obviously , in the last couple of years , we have

19:38

these really super performance shoes that

19:40

have these great foams and carbon fiber

19:43

plates , right . Whether everyone

19:45

needs one of those or not , you know , remains to be seen

19:47

. But so the shoes have evolved to be very

19:49

specific to how we actually

19:51

run , as opposed to in the early 2000s . We

19:53

were running the same way we are now

19:55

, but we deal with the awkwardness . Like

19:57

there were shoes that I would run try to run fast and

19:59

steep and on a lot of twisty , turny

20:02

stuff but the shoes were just awkward

20:04

. Right , they weren't built for that . But there

20:06

were certain aspects that were good , but then there were certain aspects

20:08

that were bad . There was a lot of shoes that you'd run , you

20:10

know , three or four hours in and your feet would just hurt because

20:13

they just weren't , they weren't built for low runs

20:15

. So that's the biggest thing , I think . I

20:17

think the kit , I think certainly when Solomon

20:20

developed their first trail

20:22

running vest , I think that was a big thing . I was , like

20:24

you know , in the early

20:26

2000s still in

20:28

a variety of other you know , hydration kind

20:30

of related things . Certainly nutrition has evolved

20:33

to be portable nutrition , on

20:35

the fly , knowing that you know , as

20:37

opposed to even like a marathon where marathoners

20:40

rely on aid stations . You

20:42

know the aid stations in trail running races are

20:44

often , you know , hours apart . So having

20:46

that portable nutrition that's not

20:48

only accessible but obviously you

20:50

know , smart in terms of how you rehydrate

20:53

, how quickly it gets into your system . That's

20:55

a big thing . You know headlamps , obviously , if you're bald

20:57

, there used to be a lot of bulky headlamps

20:59

that were really heavy with battery packs , and now

21:02

they're light , much more powerful . So

21:04

I think the gear for sure the

21:07

shoes and the kit has definitely been a big thing to

21:09

allow people to run how they

21:11

want to run , how they need to run . And

21:13

then obviously , the other part is that there's

21:15

more people involved in the sport now , there's more

21:18

races and it's more of a

21:20

community . Certainly the community

21:22

was always there but tiny , but now it's much bigger

21:24

and just I

21:27

think to know how the understanding of inspiration

21:29

is just much wider , which is great .

21:31

And because there's been a few times

21:34

where there's been like a running boom or there's been

21:36

a marathon boom . You know the 80s

21:38

, we've had Kipchak , he's sub , two things like

21:40

that and have

21:42

you seen that whenever

21:45

there's a running boom or there's a marathon

21:47

, focus kind of exposure

21:50

increase that actually , that then

21:52

automatically feeds

21:55

into an increase in trail runners , or do they

21:57

actually fight each other in

21:59

some regards ?

22:01

Yeah , I think they used to fight each other for sure . I think in the

22:03

90s there was definitely we're

22:06

road runners and we're trail runners kind of an opposite

22:08

polar kind of attraction and

22:11

maybe still there's still some of that . I think

22:13

now it's a little bit more blended . I

22:15

think , like you know , in the 90s there was a big , another

22:18

big marathon boom , probably the second big marathon boom

22:20

when Oprah ran a marathon . Oprah

22:22

Winfrey ran a marathon , but then other celebrities started

22:24

to run marathons , right , and again

22:26

, that was maybe early internet or

22:29

pre-internet , but certainly that's when running became this

22:31

mainstream thing where you'd see those things on a TV

22:33

or on a front cover or page

22:35

six of the newspaper , right , where like

22:37

, oh you know , like if that person can run a marathon

22:40

, I can run a marathon , and

22:42

. But then with trail , it was always a

22:44

thing , like you know , we'd go off in the woods and

22:46

into mountains and do our trail thing and we

22:48

didn't want that exposure , right . And

22:51

when I say we , I mean like we as a community , we were

22:53

like doing our own thing and we were happy

22:55

without that exposure . But there have been

22:57

several booms of trail and

22:59

ultra . I think you know the

23:01

first , you know that 70s and 80s I'm not

23:03

sure that was a boom , but that was a thing . But

23:05

I think that again , after , like you know , when

23:08

the internet became more , everyone

23:10

had more bandwidth , both mentally and also

23:12

on their computers . I think there was more to see

23:14

and more to do and more to be inspired about , and

23:16

so that became a thing , I think in the

23:18

early 2000s . And then as

23:21

technology advanced

23:23

, as you know , as smartphones became a thing and

23:25

you know , I think I had my first iPhone

23:27

in 2007 . So that's a point

23:29

at which more content was on my phone

23:31

. I was regularly seeing more

23:34

content as various social

23:36

media platforms took off and people were , you know

23:39

, posting about their own adventure . I think that

23:41

has been a boom since then , for sure . And

23:43

then the more obvious , the most obvious recent

23:45

one was post pandemic , I think . During

23:47

the pandemic , obviously we were

23:50

all shuttered inside and whatever we

23:52

were doing and however we were doing

23:54

, it stopped immediately . And then we

23:56

quickly had to rethink , like I have to do something right

23:58

, I can't stay inside all the time and

24:00

one of the obvious things that happened was people

24:02

got out and found running

24:04

, but also found trails , you know . I

24:07

think that during the pandemic and

24:10

not to speak globally . But I think during the pandemic

24:12

people needed to get out right

24:14

, and getting out into the

24:16

urban and suburban places was

24:18

not as appealing as finding that

24:20

trail because the trail which

24:22

we know even big cities have trails but

24:25

that offered a different sense of freedom and adventure

24:27

and I think a lot of people were hiking and

24:30

then learning like , oh , we can run these , or a lot

24:32

of runners were then going to trails , and so I

24:34

think that was a great conversion and

24:37

exposure to people that , like you know , hey

24:39

, I want to do this . And then , obviously , once

24:42

the pandemic subsided

24:44

, then it was that kind

24:46

of personal interaction of how

24:48

you spent your time with this

24:50

whole new world of , oh hey , there are races

24:52

out there , hey , this looks cool , I could do this . And

24:55

then now we're seeing the fruits of

24:57

that in that , you know , we're

25:00

seeing more excitement , more exposure on all levels

25:02

. So with technology , with shoes , with

25:04

brands , with athletes , we're

25:06

just seeing more of everything and more people seem to be getting

25:09

out there , and that includes a new boom

25:11

in the marathon , which I think is happening right now , but

25:13

also especially with trail and with

25:15

ultra .

25:17

And even a little bit with track , I think

25:19

, with Ingebrigtsen coming along and the shoes

25:21

and just the rethinking

25:23

of how trading potentially is done , it

25:25

has got a lot of attention into

25:27

a sport that was dying on its ass . To be fair

25:29

, right , right

25:32

.

25:32

I mean , I'm a huge track fan . I'm a huge track

25:35

fan , but like , even for me every

25:37

four years , like , oh , here's what's happening

25:39

, and like I would follow the

25:42

US races and stuff , but like , but

25:44

I agree , since the pandemic , because

25:47

, too , that , like those athletes too were doing some cool things

25:49

, like there was a lot of , you know , there was no meets , but

25:51

then there was a lot of time trials that people were doing

25:54

and people were training very hard , and then

25:56

, all of a sudden , you'd see this , you know an

25:58

Instagram video of a bunch of guys

26:00

going sub 13 and a 5K and

26:02

like you were excited again , right , and so I think that

26:04

is definitely spurred new

26:06

excitement in track and field . And great

26:09

, because obviously this generation of track and field athletes

26:11

is amazing , as we've seen in the last three years

26:13

.

26:14

Yeah , absolutely . And in terms

26:16

of then , the stories over

26:19

the time , what would you say have been

26:21

the biggest stories that have

26:23

come out that surprised you , or what have been like

26:25

the biggest controversies that you've

26:28

covered in that time ?

26:31

And recently or just in the scope of my career .

26:33

Just in the scope of your career , yeah , what

26:36

are the ones we might have been aware of

26:38

? Or are schools in particular

26:40

like dug out and really researched hard

26:42

?

26:43

Yeah , I mean , I think that one of the first big

26:46

stories was maybe not a

26:48

controversy , but what kind of change . You

26:50

know , running was like here was like through

26:54

the 90s like trail

26:56

running , off running was kind of like a middle-aged

26:58

sport . Right , there was a lot of guys

27:01

running in their 40s and

27:03

winning races , right , and they're a good athlete , they're a great athlete

27:05

. And there weren't many women , right . But

27:09

so I was at . One of the first races I was ever at

27:11

was the 1994 Leadbill 100

27:14

. And Ann Trason , famous

27:16

American ultra athlete , was there and

27:19

she was racing against the more

27:21

or less against these Tata Hamara

27:23

runners from Mexico that

27:25

this American promoter brought up and I

27:27

think they were there in back to back years . But

27:30

you know it's crazy , ann

27:32

ran really well . I think she was second overall , and

27:36

some of the Tata Hamara did really well and

27:39

then some didn't do so well at all , you know , and they're running

27:41

in their Hirachi sandals , everything else , and

27:43

so and that was way before kind of a lot of this

27:46

stuff was exposed . But that was

27:48

always memorable to me and I think I wrote about it then

27:50

and you know , ann's

27:52

record still stands in the Leadbill 100

27:54

. It's one of the longest standing records

27:57

. And you know it shows two things One , what

27:59

a great , amazing outlier

28:01

of an athlete than Ann was , but also kind of how this

28:03

cool cultural connection was happening way back then

28:05

. Right , and then you know

28:07

, like you know seeing , like Scott Jurek , who

28:10

was young at the time , like in his early 20s

28:12

, when you know Western states

28:14

, his first year he won it , which I think was 99

28:16

, that changed the course of running and

28:18

brought , you know it was initially , a whole

28:21

new generation of runners in it and then , and

28:23

then he obviously won it seven years in a row , and

28:26

so those were similar moments , I guess , and kind

28:28

of how the sport changed things . And like in news

28:30

items and yeah , I mean , yeah , this was like a lot of

28:32

crazy stories , I mean , like you

28:34

know , from kind of

28:36

kind of cult , kind of cult running organizations

28:39

. There was a big cult here in

28:42

Boulder that would do like these crazy long

28:45

runs with no sustenance

28:47

, you know , and then they didn't have this , you know a bunch of liquor at

28:49

the end of it and everything else was crazy . You know crazy

28:52

stuff that people were doing tied to

28:55

ultra running , right , and like there was

28:57

there was like no kind of normal approach to

28:59

it . In a lot of ways , you know what was

29:01

, what was that called . Yeah

29:04

, they called it the community . It was called Divine Madness

29:06

by name . They called themselves the community

29:08

, but it was known as Divine Madness

29:11

. And yeah , they would do these

29:13

crazy long runs like on

29:15

the dirt roads and trails here , like , like

29:17

you know , a couple of hour runs , and they'd wind up at

29:19

a party and dancing and have liquor and you know

29:21

probably some intimate relations

29:24

, as it's been known , but

29:27

that kind of disbanded . I think a lot of people are still in

29:29

therapy , unfortunately , because that didn't really go

29:31

well . But but that group produced

29:33

a lot of really good trail runners and ultra runners

29:35

, which you know because of the essence

29:37

. They were doing some really long training runs

29:39

, you know . But yeah , there's been

29:41

crazy stories , you know , all through the sport

29:44

and people doing kind of kind of nutty things and

29:46

you know , certainly , certainly we see some of

29:48

those characters now . But I mean

29:50

, that's a beauty of this sport though too . It's

29:53

got some , you know , some really kind of

29:55

kind of in the weeds kind

29:57

of stories that come out , you know .

30:01

Because , yeah , we love

30:03

stories along those lines , but I'm gonna try and

30:05

research that out actually and try and get

30:07

someone who is at the heart of it , who's only just

30:09

to come through their therapy , to come back

30:11

and tell us actually what

30:13

happened in that community and then I

30:15

can definitely connect you with a couple of names and

30:19

you can probably get some good interviews for sure . And

30:22

with Scott , because

30:24

you know Scott's office . For me Scott

30:26

is the first name

30:30

that we knew in trail running , like the first

30:32

superstar of trail running . Do

30:35

you think now because especially you

30:37

know he's tried UTMB but actually

30:39

even then UTMB wasn't what it

30:41

is now and it's grown

30:43

and it's grown and it's grown , and arguably now

30:45

because of the structure of the organisation

30:48

is the biggest

30:51

trail race in the world , overtaking

30:53

Western states ? Do you think

30:55

? I know that's a bit of a controversy

30:57

there , but that's how I'd view

30:59

it from a hopefully a

31:01

relatively objective perspective . But do

31:04

you think now that race is

31:06

growing and growing in statuette ? Do you think that makes

31:08

it almost worse for him the fact that he

31:11

hasn't won that one ?

31:13

Yeah , I don't know . I think that I agree that it wasn't

31:16

back then what it is now . He

31:18

definitely came over and tried , you know , a

31:21

couple of times , to run it and I think he was . I

31:23

think he was top 10 once , but I only

31:26

saw him run it once , I think in 2011

31:28

, where

31:30

a bunch of Americans were in and just didn't have a really

31:32

good experience . But I think too , that was the whole notion

31:35

of it , was a different kind of experience

31:37

, you know . It was a different kind of course

31:39

, with the competitive

31:41

balance was certainly part of it , and

31:43

so the

31:45

main pack off the front running together pretty

31:48

fast for the conditions was

31:50

different than American races where there

31:53

was never that kind of mass

31:55

pack like a hard rock 100 , it's usually

31:57

one or two runners at most right Western

31:59

states things kind of spread out

32:01

quite a bit , even though you know Western's a faster

32:04

race . But I think the notion of how

32:06

deep the front pack was at UTMB

32:08

, even back then , was

32:12

a game changer for the sport . All

32:14

of a sudden it was like almost like a marathon

32:16

mentality of like you had to be there , you had

32:18

to run with these guys and then whoever blew up last

32:20

or whoever was strongest obviously would survive

32:22

, and that's still a case . I

32:24

mean , when you watch races and

32:27

now you see strategy built against that

32:29

or with it , you know , like when Zach Miller

32:31

was over there and went off the front several times

32:33

to run away from that

32:35

pack , that was his way of , you know , doing that

32:37

, or with Kylian just sitting back and

32:39

holding , you know . So that whole

32:41

kind of competitive balance that UTMB

32:44

brought was a big thing that changed the sport

32:46

and certainly , I think , was also

32:48

a factor that people don't talk about as much as to

32:50

why some of these American men didn't

32:52

have success over there . You know , and

32:54

other reasons too . Anton was running a great

32:56

race and in the lead , I think , through Triant

32:59

one time and then obviously had stomach problems

33:01

and what have you . But it also doesn't explain why

33:03

so many American women have done so well over

33:05

there as well . However , I will say that

33:07

that same competitive balance obviously

33:09

isn't necessarily present in the women's race

33:12

or hasn't been because of depth

33:14

. Right , there hasn't been the depth , and so , believe

33:17

me , kudos to every woman who's run that race

33:19

and run well . My

33:21

point is more that , like you know , the

33:23

men's race would often have the first , you

33:25

know , through Le Contamine , you know , 10 or 20 runners

33:28

within a minute or two , you know , and whereas the

33:30

women are much more spread out , so it wasn't that pack

33:32

mentality of kind of survival , it was

33:34

more these great women were emerging

33:36

and then by you know , by Koma'er

33:38

obviously were already running solo

33:40

, whereas the men's was more of a deeper

33:43

thing . And so , and we're seeing that more

33:45

in women's , although Courtney is an outlier

33:47

to that too , because and

33:50

I'll take it aside here Courtney , who's

33:53

a friend in a neighbor , is

33:55

just a crazy outlier at a time when

33:57

women's ultra , women's trail has never

34:00

been deeper or more competitive or

34:02

more exposed . And so people

34:04

have asked me about is she the next Anne Trason

34:06

? And Anne Trason was an outlier

34:08

before the sport really existed , right , she was

34:10

way out front . But Courtney is that same

34:12

outlier , maybe even more , when the

34:14

sport has never been deeper from a women's point

34:16

of view or women's depth . So that's pretty

34:19

impressive to think about .

34:20

Yeah , I mean it's absolutely insane

34:22

. And with , do

34:25

you think , with the that

34:27

clump of people at the front , do you think it was that

34:29

the American runners weren't mentally

34:32

prepared for being in

34:35

someone else's pace , surrounded by people ? Or

34:37

do you think they weren't physically prepared for taking

34:39

off at that pace

34:41

, on that type of course ?

34:44

Yeah , maybe both , maybe both . And I think that I

34:46

think again , like

34:48

if you're thinking back to the early 2000s

34:51

in American ultras , even

34:53

through like 2010 , yeah

34:55

, I mean , like it'd be rare

34:57

to find an event where there was maybe

34:59

more than three or four people through the first

35:01

quarter of the race that were really either

35:03

competitive or you knew we were gonna stick

35:05

around . I remember being at like the

35:08

2002 White River 50

35:11

, which is a big race outside of Seattle here

35:13

and it was a USA

35:15

national championship , the White River 50 and a really

35:17

good race and you know , and

35:19

Jerrick was there and a bunch of other people , but like

35:21

through , say , 10k

35:23

, there was a big pack of people right , the

35:25

trail was smooth

35:28

enough and allowed for that before the climbing really

35:30

came into place , but then once

35:32

you reach mile 20 , it was all single

35:34

file and strung out . So it was a different mentality

35:37

mentally , physically , probably emotionally

35:39

to be in a race . You

35:42

could trust your talents and your experience and that would

35:44

get you pretty far in a race

35:46

and then put you in a place you were comfortable with

35:48

, even if you were alone or

35:51

in strung out single file fashion , whereas

35:53

I think going to Chaminie

35:55

for UTMB in those . You

35:57

know those . You know the first years when Americans

36:00

were trying to really kind of make a statement there . I

36:03

think you're right . I think that you know , physically

36:05

they had to question were they prepared

36:07

for the steep climbs ? You know , in the steep descents

36:09

, which was different than most

36:11

races in USA , I think

36:13

you know . You know , emotionally and mentally , yeah

36:16

, to be , you know to be this great runner from you

36:18

know USA , who won all these races

36:20

and to go over there and realize you're one of 20

36:23

, you know that are running competitively

36:25

. You know it was a certain

36:27

thing and

36:29

so that's a credit to the sport and obviously

36:31

the European culture of the sport

36:33

that had already existed , or the depth even , you

36:35

know which . The depth didn't exist

36:37

here , even though there was prominent races and athletes here

36:39

.

36:40

Yeah , yeah , it's interesting and I've been

36:43

even seeing the Americans come over and win Sierra's

36:45

an hour and things like that . It's

36:47

fairly semi-regularly and yeah , it's

36:49

that going up to that ultra distance

36:51

was the hard one In

36:54

terms of the like , because in

36:56

the UK the running

36:58

magazine industry has

37:00

been fairly decimated by the internet

37:03

and a

37:05

lot of the time of magazines . You need that

37:07

critical size , that critical mass , to

37:09

be able to be

37:11

able to cover your base costs , which America

37:14

, you know five times the size , thankfully

37:17

has that have you . But with

37:19

trail runner and outside magazine , have

37:21

you what would you say ? The big changes

37:23

you've had to make and that you've seen

37:25

in terms of the content or how you've

37:27

operated because of the internet ?

37:30

Yeah , so I tell people that in 2000

37:32

, when we launched the first issues of trail

37:34

runner magazine , we produced

37:37

six issues a year , right , so that's every two months

37:39

. And within each issue

37:41

, if you counted you know the short and the

37:43

long stories , there might have been , say , 20 pieces

37:46

of content , right , just on average , right . So

37:48

20 pieces of content every two months was

37:51

really the cadence of content

37:53

back then . Other bigger

37:55

running magazines , like Runner's World , didn't really

37:57

cover trail here at all and

38:00

there was no other place to find trail

38:02

running . Social media didn't exist yet and

38:04

there were message boards I think there was

38:06

some early , you know , website

38:09

of clubs and races , but

38:12

there wasn't really a lot of content and there was no other

38:14

place to find it . So , 20 pieces of content

38:16

. When you got the magazine , people were like excited

38:19

for it , right , and that would sustain , you

38:21

know , probably that gap of every two months

38:23

. And then , as

38:25

the internet developed and

38:28

as more kind of electronic

38:31

publishing became , you

38:34

know less dark

38:36

ages and more modern , and then also

38:38

the biggest thing was social media . Obviously , as social media

38:40

emerged and the ability for anybody

38:42

to share their own content kind

38:44

of really changed everything . And now , if you think

38:46

about . You know , my day today

38:48

, scrolling through my phone when I woke up . I've

38:52

already read many stories

38:54

, many athlete points of view , many photos

38:56

. There was a lot of reactions from the

38:58

new series that was launched yesterday , but

39:01

I've probably already seen easily

39:03

25 to 30 pieces of content on my

39:05

phone right . So you know that's

39:08

within 40 minutes or so and

39:10

you know . Going back to what I said before , where there was 20

39:12

pieces of content every two months , all right , just

39:15

from a cadence point of view , you know

39:17

20 pieces of content every two months , that's all that existed

39:19

right . And now again

39:21

you can scroll through your phone and see that

39:24

in a short bit of time . And

39:26

so also the access that everyone has

39:28

again , races , race and records athletes

39:30

. You know , you and me , the

39:33

buddies you ran with this morning . You know I often

39:35

find it fascinating that when I go on an early

39:37

morning trail run and we

39:40

see a sunrise and somebody's there taking photos and

39:42

you don't really think about it right away , but obviously

39:44

some people are posting right away to

39:47

social media and then by the time you get

39:49

back and you know you're showering , you start your workday , you've

39:51

already seen photos of yourself or your buddies , or

39:54

the sunrise , and like , wow , like

39:56

you know that's , you know it happens

39:58

, but like there's two different experiences of the

40:00

experience of actually doing it right , and then there's

40:02

the experience of seeing it later , and so content

40:04

content in all forms

40:07

, you know , written photographs

40:09

, videos , however they're

40:11

disseminated have become content , has become a

40:13

thing right . And there's again there's

40:15

our experiences of running and how we felt

40:17

, physically , emotionally , on the trail

40:19

, and then you see it later and

40:21

then , oh , hopefully you're inspired , or

40:23

you see things , or you want to do something

40:25

because of what you've seen , or you just

40:28

relish in it . You see the oh , my buddy

40:30

posted a photo . That's a beautiful photo , right , and

40:32

so . But it's become much

40:34

more pervasive , it's embedded

40:36

in everything we do , and

40:38

you can be , you can run a great run in the

40:40

morning , and then you can be in a work meeting or

40:42

a family event and see a photo later , and

40:45

then you know you're still connected to that

40:47

moment or you're still inspired by that moment

40:49

. So it's 24 , seven now , really

40:51

.

40:52

But how's that changed the type

40:55

of content ? Because then you obviously

40:57

have to . You've always got to create

40:59

something that is beyond

41:02

or different or contrasting . You've

41:04

got to create that value right . So how has

41:06

that impacted on the stories

41:08

that you then seek out ?

41:11

Yeah , so I think that to that point , you

41:13

know certainly more unique stories . You

41:16

know stories that you know . For

41:19

me , as a journalist , I think certainly that allows me to

41:21

, or forces me to , dig

41:23

deeper into stories that people aren't going

41:25

to see , right , or to find a really unique

41:27

bit and bring it out to a bigger audience

41:30

. You know , I think the common

41:32

thing you see on social media is

41:34

you know beautiful shots and photos and everything else , which is great

41:37

, and that I think digging deeper into

41:39

kind of you know just kind

41:41

of unique stories about how you know how

41:43

athletes and how people are approaching running , I

41:45

think their , their personal stories , come out better . Certainly

41:48

, a personal story can come out on Instagram

41:51

, but to tell it in a more broad , based spectrum

41:53

, for a wider audience , certainly

41:56

as a journalist , as a content producer

41:58

, on a commercial basis , you know that's

42:00

kind of where I look to tell , to tell stories that are maybe

42:03

uniquely small but

42:05

have some buzz to it , and then they make it bigger , right

42:08

. I think that's that's a key thing . I think

42:10

that Certainly , certainly , we

42:12

see a lot of commentary on a great podcast

42:14

, you know . So there's , there's tons of commentary out

42:16

there and then , but then telling stories

42:18

from again , again , a more journalistic point

42:21

of view , a more unique

42:23

point of view , I think , are

42:25

certainly some of the key ways so to really

42:28

make content still exist and have a place

42:30

.

42:31

And do you think that the balance between people

42:33

seeking performance content

42:36

and entertainment content in trailers

42:38

has changed ?

42:40

Yeah , I think for sure . I think that I think

42:43

we're still in the evolution of training

42:45

for alphas and training for trails . I

42:48

think that there was in the early 2000s

42:50

, a lot of it was brought over from road running or

42:52

just you know , kind of winging it . I think there was a lot of people

42:54

that that love , love the idea

42:56

of just you know , taking what you know or what

42:59

you're doing , and racing on trails . Right , it was very raw

43:01

, very , very pure , but also maybe

43:03

not as scientifically proven as

43:05

what we know now is like different training techniques

43:07

and understandings of that . So I

43:10

think that there is a certain Consumer

43:13

that is looking for that , both you know , at the elite

43:15

end , but also for that age

43:18

group runner who wants to run 100

43:20

miles or a trail marathon better

43:22

, right , and understand the differences and

43:24

kind of how they need to train

43:26

, where they need to build strength or aerobic strength

43:28

. I think is a big thing . And then , but that's

43:30

also still tied to this

43:33

notion of freedom and escape , right , I mean , trails

43:35

are always going to offer that freedom and escape and

43:37

I think that at some point there's

43:40

got to be a balance within every runner to understand

43:42

that , like we know , the freedom

43:44

and escape and the joy Balance

43:47

as well against the intensity and the competitiveness

43:49

, and that's why a lot of people are running trails as opposed

43:51

to running more marathons and road races

43:54

, for example , and so

43:56

I think , I think that there are certainly

43:58

More coaches , more understandings

44:01

of how to train , more performance , nutrition

44:03

, things like that , but at the same time , I think

44:05

we all , we all , we all go off into the trails

44:07

, whether it's an easy , rolling

44:09

, fun trail or a hard , grueling , steep

44:12

trail or a long run . We

44:15

will always have that essence of being

44:17

out , the outdoors and getting away and

44:20

all that and and so there's always going to

44:22

be that balance . But I think that there is , there is content

44:24

being made on both sides that that

44:26

hopefully inspire Performance as well

44:28

as like the need to get out and

44:30

kind of explore .

44:32

Yeah , because , because my slight fear is that we

44:35

as consumers

44:37

I'd say people are prepared to

44:39

train possibly harder than they ever have as

44:41

a non-high-level athlete

44:43

to do 100 miles . But then actually the distance

44:45

between Someone like let's

44:47

take a killing or a Courtney and you've

44:50

got a kip chagi who can run a super

44:52

fast math and running , let's say , 80

44:54

hundred miles a week to 120

44:56

miles a week , and actually we

44:58

we can see , we can look at the physiology

45:01

. Some people can get up to that when

45:03

they're working and suddenly put out an amazing time

45:05

. But actually it's only recently

45:07

that we're Someone like Courtney

45:09

or Killian was seeing them actually

45:12

back to back hundred miles . And

45:14

when no one's really studied or understands

45:16

how the body adapts to

45:19

a hard hundred mile race

45:21

, and the fact that it does seem that the rules

45:23

are changing in these athletes

45:25

in what they're able to do . That has never

45:27

been done before . But I

45:30

don't think you can get to that position very

45:32

easily without . I don't think

45:34

someone will come into the sport and be able To do these back

45:36

to back hundred miles . So my fear

45:38

is that actually the perception

45:41

of what's possible Was is growing

45:43

and growing and growing . But actually the distance between

45:45

how long it takes to actually achieve that

45:47

From where you start as a

45:49

non like heavy trainer

45:51

is getting further and further without people

45:53

realizing that .

45:54

I Agree

45:56

, I think if you look at like the bell curve

45:58

in the marathon versus the bell curve

46:00

in Ultrarite , I mean like even in the 70s

46:02

there was there was fast runners that

46:05

came from a track and field for athletics , that

46:07

that took to the marathon and there was more of an understanding

46:09

right away , even if primitive , of

46:12

how to train for a marathon and

46:14

I think that most people went into the

46:16

marathon , even age groupers , with that

46:18

same or similar mentality . Right , and initially

46:20

the the marathon in those first running rooms

46:22

was all about how fast can everyone

46:24

run it . So everyone was kind of more in a kind

46:27

of the mode of like improving your

46:29

time over the course of the marathon , whereas ultra , I think

46:31

Because it's such a big , unwieldy

46:34

task for anybody to run a hundred miles

46:36

, for example , it's

46:39

, it's , it's both Kind

46:41

of always been a survival mode , right at one level

46:43

from the age groupers and it and

46:45

even a lot of the elite athletes

46:48

that initially emerged Either had special talents

46:50

or were training better and were outliers

46:52

to everyone else . And there wasn't

46:54

, there wasn't as much about competitive kind

46:57

of collection of people In

47:00

one region around the world . Right , there was outliers

47:02

. And then , to your point , I mean

47:04

like the science is still in

47:07

its early phases right of coaches who understand it

47:09

. Obviously , as the sport

47:11

has evolved , as more athletes , as more brands

47:13

, as more coaches have gotten ball , there's more understanding

47:15

, more competitiveness too , and

47:17

so that's all kind of work together to

47:20

fuel Either

47:22

new ways or better ways to understand

47:24

it . And you know , I think there's been a handful

47:26

of studies . I think just in group , an American

47:28

coach has just published a bunch of online

47:31

kind of science related things that are

47:33

really smart and yet there's not

47:35

a lot of science in it because , you

47:38

know , still also running , as we know it is not a

47:40

broad-based Kind of

47:42

activity . We know there's

47:44

there's more training studies

47:47

tied to training for athletics

47:49

track and field , the marathon , because

47:52

that's more more widely understood . There's more

47:54

Universities , there's more coaches , there's

47:56

more brands interested in that right . But I think

47:58

I think we are seeing , certainly

48:01

, athletes that are

48:03

training better , training differently , recovering

48:05

better . I think it's a big thing too nutrition Infueling

48:09

better . These are all parts of the equation , right , and

48:11

it's not . It's , it's not and it probably

48:13

will never be an exact science , because everything

48:15

that happens To an individual

48:18

over the course of 100 miles , right over

48:20

the course of a marathon we pretty much kind of understand

48:22

, kind of how someone's heart rate

48:24

, blood sugar or metabolism , all

48:26

these things are acting in a very consistent way

48:28

, right , if you look at all the data , whereas

48:30

you know 100 miler it's , it's there's

48:33

so many different factors , right , there's just so

48:35

many different factors and certainly

48:37

, certainly it takes , it

48:39

takes that physical , mental

48:41

, emotional kind of Joint

48:44

effort and then there's

48:46

probably , like this , this special factor we don't know

48:48

yet you know , like what makes Courtney so incredibly

48:50

good , right , or killing it , right , we've seen them compete

48:53

against other great athletes who we think we know

48:55

are great athletes , right . And yet , you

48:57

know , if we use Killian and Courtney as

48:59

like these models of Superstars

49:01

, they , they also bring something else to the table

49:04

, right , and you know Courtney can talk about her pain cave

49:06

and widening her pain cave , and obviously , if you've

49:08

seen Courtney at a race or an aid station

49:10

, or Killian too , they're very much at ease

49:12

, right , they're very much happy , go lucky and

49:15

different than most people , and

49:17

what that is , it's hard to put a finger

49:19

on it , but obviously is a special element

49:21

that maybe all , all

49:23

elite athletes have like . If you look at the elite athletes

49:25

in any sport , when someone excels you

49:28

know again in football and basketball

49:30

and in track and swimming there's

49:32

always this element of something different , something

49:34

special that makes them excel , because

49:36

everybody on the starting line is an elite

49:39

, well trained , fit athlete , and

49:41

yet the ones that excel repeatedly are are

49:43

special in different ways .

49:46

Yeah , true , yeah , I mean my fear is that

49:48

they're now excelling so much that people

49:50

are going to come into the sport and just injure themselves

49:52

trying to replicate what they're doing , because they haven't got that

49:54

, that awareness of of

49:56

how long it takes . But , um , conscious

49:58

of time , um , but we've been gossiping

50:01

obviously Off-lied quite

50:03

a bit about the new series that's

50:05

just been announced about . I mean , I was

50:07

intrigued with grand canary pulled out of utmb

50:09

as well , but last five

50:12

years we've seen , as

50:14

in lots of industries , bigger

50:17

and bigger companies coming in fighting

50:19

for turf , whether

50:21

that's sparta and utmb gold

50:24

trail , that will . How , how

50:26

do you see ? How

50:29

do you see kind of trail running and octra running progressing

50:31

and do you think , like the emergence

50:34

of strong brands is is better

50:36

for the sport or potentially

50:38

more damaging than good for the sport ?

50:41

Yeah , that's a that's a pretty open question there

50:43

. But , uh , my , my

50:45

take is that , like it's certainly a double-edged sword

50:47

if you look at it that way , but I also think that it's like there's

50:49

certainly two yeah , maybe

50:52

polar opposite kind of things fueling the

50:54

sport right now . Right , I think on one end

50:56

, certainly , yeah , we've had more , um , as

50:58

you said , globalization , internationalization

51:00

and competitiveness . That is fueling

51:02

the need or the desire , both within

51:05

the sport but also within the industry , of

51:07

creating , you know , bigger races , championship

51:09

races , um of which , you

51:11

know , sponsorship can get behind or brands

51:14

can get behind . That's , and that's a big thing in

51:16

the evolution of any business or sport

51:18

. And so With

51:20

that comes more exposure , right , and that's , in

51:23

theory at least , you know , uh , the

51:25

base level , good for the sport , because more people

51:27

see it , more people get involved , more brands get involved

51:29

. And then there's more athletes

51:31

who are actually making a living at the sport . They do , um

51:34

, you know , back in the early 2000s

51:36

and I , everyone was doing it on their own right . They were working

51:38

full-time jobs on their own and they were running , and

51:41

even now a lot of athletes still do that Um

51:43

, so whether that's good or bad , I'm

51:45

not gonna . I don't have an opinion on it . I mean , it's certainly what's

51:47

happened Um and with

51:49

with the the running industry

51:52

that's gotten behind trail running . We've seen better shoes

51:54

, better gear , more races

51:56

, more high level content

51:59

produced , uh , you know , uh , live

52:01

streams have become , you know , certainly out of this

52:03

world . You can watch great races from around the world

52:05

. Certainly that's all funded by this whole thing

52:07

, right , and that wouldn't , that didn't come out of the ether , that

52:09

came out of , certainly , ingenuity , but

52:11

someone's paying for this things to happen , right , so that's , that's

52:14

. That's one side of the other side . But we know , and I

52:16

said , that trail running , ultra

52:18

running , has always been about this pure escape

52:21

, this freedom , right , and a very grassroots

52:23

feeling . And so to run a fell race

52:25

in the lakes district or To

52:27

run an ultra race anywhere in the

52:29

world , right , you , you feel that um

52:31

, sense of your personal Kind of

52:34

immersion in in the environment , whatever

52:36

it is mountains or deserts or trails

52:38

or whatever , and there's a beauty

52:40

to that that then creates community , because

52:42

we're all out there doing this for our own personal

52:44

reasons , but also Both suffering

52:47

and engaging and enjoying this with the people around

52:49

us the few people that are around us doing this Because it's

52:51

a rare thing , obviously , and so , unlike

52:54

the marathon , the marathon has its own

52:56

community , but it's different because it's

52:58

much more accessible , it's much more in front of you , whereas

53:00

to do trail running , on ultra running

53:02

, you feel a bond with people because

53:04

, whether you're the fastest or

53:06

the very last person , we're all doing

53:08

the same thing and we all appreciate everyone else . And

53:10

so , from that level , from that very grassroots

53:12

level , the sport is also growing

53:15

and also very Vibrant , more

53:17

vibrant than it's ever been . At the other

53:19

end , obviously , you have this , what people call

53:21

the , the running industrial complex , right when

53:23

, where brands are getting involved again

53:25

, trying to promote it , and so , whether it's , you know

53:28

, golden trail or utmb , or even

53:30

this new world trail majors , um

53:32

, which which , to a different level , maybe

53:35

isn't is a commercial yet , um

53:37

, but but , but obviously still

53:39

trying to put a Kind of a shell

53:41

, kind of a brand around something . Um

53:44

, you know , in in the middle , is everyone else is in the middle , is

53:46

all the runner right , and that's where there's been conflict and

53:48

tension based on , you

53:52

know , things that happen and you know the whole thing in whistler

53:54

was unfortunate and you know there was a local race director , gary

53:58

Robbins , that that came in and had a race at whistler and then obviously

54:00

it appears that UTMB uh kind of worked behind the scenes

54:02

maybe and and he was ousted

54:04

right , and I don't have an opinion on that either

54:07

. I got a lot of abuse for writing a balanced

54:09

story about it , but

54:11

it just shows I did see that the tensions around the

54:14

sport certainly um Are

54:16

twofold . As much as we love Killian

54:21

and Jim and and and Courtney

54:23

and they're they're obviously well paid , professional

54:25

athletes that are pushing the sport Um

54:29

, we know they couldn't do that without that support from the brands that

54:31

they're with the hokers , the solomans Um , and now normal , obviously killian's

54:33

brand , but like those brands are only possible

54:35

and the growth and the marketing does Only

54:38

possible and the growth and the marketing dollars

54:40

only possible Uh , and the athlete

54:42

contracts are only possible because of the bigger

54:44

exposure Uh , the more investment

54:46

from brands , both endemic , and

54:48

then we'll see non-endemic brands Hopefully get involved

54:51

Um , because of that growth right . So

54:53

that growth which is , you know , worldwide now

54:55

it's , it's obviously all over europe , it's

54:57

usa , north america , it's also very

54:59

much growing in southeast asia . So lots of

55:01

money coming into the sport I know the brands are

55:03

making , especially In the last five

55:05

years , making a ton of money in china , because that's like

55:07

a new frontier , um , and

55:10

and so the question will be kind of how that

55:12

growth Um Is sustainable

55:15

, um , you know where runners kind

55:17

of you know fall in line . Do they want to do only

55:19

grassroots races ? Do they want to do a bigger international

55:22

race that is kind of part of a branded tour , um

55:24

, that's . We're

55:26

definitely at a crossroads .

55:28

Do you feel because I mean , I know

55:30

, I know from for meetings during golden

55:32

trail or from speaking to various athletes

55:34

or the the fact that they've set up a professional

55:37

trail runners association which

55:39

has pretty much all the trail

55:41

runs in there who seem to be um

55:44

Impactful in the community

55:46

Do you think there is a danger of

55:49

any of these race series losing

55:51

the community ?

55:53

Oh , for sure , I think that I mean , I think the pro

55:55

trail runners is a really great thing , um , and

55:57

for the first time since they Um establish themselves

55:59

over the last two years , they've really been able to put the

56:03

necessary input from an athlete point of view

56:05

into races , into the industry . Um , because prior to

56:08

that it was happening without the athletes , uh

56:11

, involvement , you'd show up at a race and this is how it

56:13

is , these are the rules , these are whatever , and

56:15

so to have athlete interaction is important , because the

56:17

athletes are the ones that are really , uh

56:21

, it's a lifeblood of the sport , and how the sport

56:23

is evolving as opposed to how events are evolving

56:25

right , and so I think that's been

56:27

a huge thing . Do I think it's possible

56:30

that an event or series can lose

56:32

the public for sure , and

56:35

I guess that's going to be a ratio of how

56:37

much growth is still happening versus how

56:39

much the core of the sport , whatever we envision that

56:41

to be the core of the sport , obviously

56:44

the elite athletes , the pro athletes how

56:48

much that pull goes the other way , like

56:50

, if there's a certain

56:52

kind of pull toward integrity or

56:54

the soul of the sport , which we heard yesterday

56:57

in the World Trail Majors

56:59

broadcast . I think that that's

57:02

a very big part of the sport in which I think it's great

57:04

and that will certainly

57:06

take a lot of runners down that path

57:08

who again tied to that purity , tied

57:10

to that community . And then there's

57:13

the growth . There's the tourism running

57:15

, there's a more mainstream runner who might

57:17

pop out of a marathon running

57:20

London or Chicago , and then I

57:22

want to try that . And they see a race at

57:24

some point around the world . They want to try that and

57:26

they enter that race . We're

57:28

not really , maybe , knowing the history of the politics of that

57:30

. So what we're seeing is

57:32

that the fringe growth that is coming in

57:34

droves right now from the mainstream is

57:37

a big part of this . How long that kind of growth can

57:40

be sustained versus the core growth

57:43

and the core interests and the core values is

57:45

what we're seeing the conflict between right now . So

57:50

it's going to be an interesting couple of years to see how this

57:52

plays out .

57:53

And with the new series ? Because

57:55

, for example , when Britain left Brexit

57:58

, there was a fear within the EU that it

58:00

was going to show a blueprint for other

58:02

countries to potentially follow suit . Do

58:04

you think with the new series that

58:07

similarly it will

58:09

change substantially the relationship between

58:11

UTMB and its races ? Because

58:13

the races suddenly feel like

58:15

there are alternatives and maybe feel like they've got

58:18

a bit more power than they used to .

58:21

What I will say is this I said all this growth

58:24

is happening . It's going to force everyone to be better

58:26

, and so , from a grassroots

58:28

point of view , there's a lot of races everywhere that

58:30

you and I could start a race and have it in our backyard and

58:33

call it a thing and get 100 people . It's

58:35

going to force every one of those races to be better

58:37

, meaning safety and

58:39

a good course and good A stations , all that stuff , and

58:42

it'd be true to that event . It's also

58:44

going to force the UTMBs

58:46

, the Golden Trails , the bigger , more organized

58:49

events , to be better too , because , if not

58:51

, whenever there's a crack in the system , wherever there's

58:53

poor quality or whatever

58:56

else , it's going to lessen everything else . But so

58:58

, certainly as a business , I

59:01

would think those bigger races , those

59:03

models , are going to be hopefully charged

59:05

with understanding , like they're not only

59:07

about growth , but they're about growth that

59:10

brings quality . And certainly on

59:12

a smaller level , same thing If a small race

59:14

director all of a sudden gets too big and

59:16

things become unwieldy , that's going to be a challenge there too

59:18

. So I think that I

59:21

think we're at this crossroads right now of understanding

59:23

. We're all living off this

59:26

fantastic growth and so we all

59:28

have customers coming in from all sides , meaning

59:30

the bigger races and the smaller races , and

59:32

we'll see over the long

59:34

term of how this plays out . I think

59:36

that in the evolution of sport , certainly

59:39

most sports that evolve

59:42

, obviously , if you take basketball , the

59:44

NBA is a very high level and

59:46

yet there's still plenty of university

59:48

or club or recreational

59:51

aspects of basketball that exist very well

59:53

, and the NBA is an elite thing that

59:55

you and I could never play in right , but if

59:57

we wanted to we could join

59:59

a three on three tournament or a local club team and everything

1:00:02

else , and so that's an extreme

1:00:04

example . But I think that certainly there

1:00:07

is going to be that separation , certainly

1:00:09

of high level , expensive

1:00:11

or whatever races that

1:00:14

come down to that , and there's also ones that are

1:00:16

going to probably be for the soul

1:00:18

of the sport . I think the World

1:00:20

Trail majors is interesting because as

1:00:23

much as they're trying to offer independent

1:00:25

races tied

1:00:27

to these values , they're also still

1:00:29

an international circuit that requires travel , they're

1:00:32

not inexpensive and they

1:00:35

don't really have a true championship built

1:00:37

up . So

1:00:39

we're still in this early phase . I really think the next

1:00:41

three or five years will be interesting as to how all

1:00:43

this plays out for the sport .

1:00:46

And then just going back to what you were saying before , because

1:00:48

I did see with

1:00:50

the article that was written about Whistler

1:00:52

and Gary that you

1:00:55

were accused of being a partisan

1:00:57

because of the link of the organization and

1:00:59

the magazine to the bigger organization

1:01:01

. Have you been accused of that

1:01:03

before and , as a journalist who's

1:01:06

so well established in the sport

1:01:08

, like , how was that for you ?

1:01:11

It was interesting because when I

1:01:13

actually was on a trip I was

1:01:15

with Dylan Bowman when

1:01:17

that broke . We were both

1:01:19

caught off guard by the news , both when the

1:01:21

new Whistler race emerged and also

1:01:23

when we saw the post by Gary Robbins , and

1:01:26

so obviously there was a story there From my point of view . There

1:01:28

was a story there , I think from everyone's point

1:01:30

of view . There were some interests there , and so

1:01:32

I actually reached out to Gary in three different ways

1:01:34

and I think he was traveling that week and

1:01:37

I didn't hear back from him . I reached out to him by

1:01:39

DM and by emails and all these different things

1:01:42

, and then after that I reached out to

1:01:44

the Whistler and Ironman people to get their

1:01:46

point of view and they certainly gave me interviews

1:01:49

and everything else and I wrote a story trying to include

1:01:52

both Gary's points and

1:01:56

what he said in his blog and

1:01:58

then also certainly what the Ironman

1:02:00

Whistler people were saying about how they came into it . And

1:02:03

if you read between the lines you can see there's

1:02:05

two different , conflicting points

1:02:07

of view and understandings which still don't

1:02:09

line up . And then if you hear some things

1:02:11

behind the scenes , there's more to it than that . So I

1:02:13

don't think either side was entirely transparent

1:02:15

. Each side was telling their version

1:02:17

of the story and

1:02:20

as much as we know , that truth

1:02:22

is universal . This isn't about that . This

1:02:24

is about their interpretation of how things came

1:02:26

to be and I think both sides

1:02:29

had their own angle to it and

1:02:31

I have no opinion on it . I think

1:02:33

that I got a lot of views just because

1:02:36

I wrote the story that maybe tried to tell

1:02:38

both sides . I think if I would

1:02:40

have written a story before

1:02:42

that came about , it

1:02:44

would have been more like oh wow , this is a story , and

1:02:46

that might have gotten more credit for telling the story . But

1:02:49

I think because I wrote the story

1:02:51

after Gary came out with

1:02:53

his blog post the

1:02:55

core of the community , the grassroots community maybe

1:02:58

that was leaning against UTMB anyway certainly

1:03:00

was in Gary's favor understandably

1:03:03

so and then

1:03:05

just saw me as

1:03:07

a catalyst fuel on the fire , and

1:03:10

so I took a lot of abuse for that . But

1:03:12

my only intent was ever to tell both sides of

1:03:14

the story and again , I was hopeful

1:03:16

to tell more of Gary's

1:03:18

story . And the following Tuesday

1:03:21

he got back to me after he had been on a podcast

1:03:24

. I'm cool with Gary . I've known Gary and his partner

1:03:26

Jeff in the races they've done through

1:03:28

various publishing things I've done since the early 2000s

1:03:30

, so I know what he does . I appreciate his

1:03:33

running , his events and all that . But

1:03:35

pulling back from all that , this is just an example

1:03:37

of where we're at as a sport in the bigger

1:03:40

picture of yeah , as we talk about

1:03:42

this , it's

1:03:44

kind of polar opposite

1:03:47

sides of the sport that are growing . And

1:03:49

again , that's where we are and I called it growing

1:03:51

pains in my article and people obviously

1:03:53

didn't like that . They got fat with some of

1:03:55

the social media posts . But this is the definition

1:03:57

of growing pains , right , because we

1:04:00

all love that . Courtney and Killian and Jim

1:04:02

are full-time athletes doing

1:04:04

these great things . We see all this exposure and

1:04:07

we also love the tiny little race that you and

1:04:09

I could do , the 50K in our neighborhood . But

1:04:13

the growing pains are somewhere in the middle where these things are

1:04:15

happening , right . So it's

1:04:17

a tough place to be , but it's also a

1:04:19

true sign of the growth we're going through .

1:04:22

But did it irky somewhat

1:04:25

Like , was it a

1:04:27

little bit insulting on your personality

1:04:30

and your character

1:04:32

?

1:04:32

Yes and no , but I honestly think

1:04:34

I never had a problem with it because I

1:04:36

knew what my intent was and so

1:04:39

I was a little bit surprised . So

1:04:41

at the time , ironically , I was down in Arizona

1:04:43

covering Jamil Khoury's

1:04:45

the Arab-Arabic hobbling 100 , right

1:04:47

. And while all

1:04:49

this stuff was blowing up against

1:04:52

me on social media , I'm at the grassroots

1:04:54

level interviewing . I spent sleepless

1:04:56

nights interviewing people , taking photos at

1:04:59

this event , trying to tell this story , and

1:05:03

the whole thing is blowing up around me , and

1:05:05

even people were there . I

1:05:07

saw Billy Yang there and he's like oh , you're getting a lot of abuse

1:05:09

on social media . I said I know , I know , but

1:05:11

again I was OK with it . I mean , again

1:05:13

, even as it was happening , I was there doing

1:05:15

my thing for this passion that is tied

1:05:18

to what I consider the purity

1:05:21

of the sport , but also through my journalistic

1:05:23

lens , right , and you know . And I

1:05:25

got back from that and I wrote the story about Javalina

1:05:27

and it was totally independent of the story I

1:05:29

wrote about Whistler . But

1:05:32

I think it's a nature of social media

1:05:34

. Social media has created this

1:05:36

platform for anybody to

1:05:39

share their opinion , which is great

1:05:41

, but also people don't

1:05:43

wanna feel like they're wrong or people

1:05:45

don't wanna have a dialogue . They wanna have their

1:05:48

viewpoint out there and

1:05:50

whatever they post is what they believe and

1:05:52

there's no way to have an open dialogue about things . And

1:05:55

that's the unfortunate part of social media , because

1:05:57

it's created a real diversion among people and

1:06:00

anything you talk about whether it be sport or

1:06:02

politics or just human nature right , and

1:06:05

that's the dangerous place we're in in

1:06:07

the world right now , because people

1:06:09

get violently upset about

1:06:11

when people are challenging their

1:06:13

own opinion or belief system . That's

1:06:16

probably been at the core of human existence

1:06:18

for 2000 years , but

1:06:20

certainly now it's so exposed

1:06:22

because we can see it on a daily basis on our phones

1:06:25

, you know .

1:06:27

And also we can evaluate it based

1:06:29

off number of likes for one comment

1:06:31

versus another and the popularity

1:06:33

review and all those things . Yeah , and

1:06:36

where do you see in terms of Trail

1:06:38

Runner and Outside Magazine ? I'll leave

1:06:40

you with the last question , like where

1:06:43

do you see them kind of going to in the future

1:06:45

? Do you think that there's

1:06:47

always gonna be an issue with number

1:06:50

of readers as free content

1:06:52

continues , or do you think actually the growth

1:06:55

of the sport could actually change the

1:06:57

nature of it and have more readers

1:06:59

and be a stronger magazine

1:07:01

in the future ?

1:07:04

I think that publishing has been in a curious place

1:07:06

for the last 10 years

1:07:08

, especially Publishing in all formats

1:07:10

. Right . Print for sure is a challenge thing because

1:07:13

the immediacy

1:07:15

of content rules today , you know

1:07:17

. But print

1:07:19

obviously is a much more expensive business model for

1:07:21

the time being . Right , and the business model

1:07:24

changed when marketers

1:07:26

, when brands that were advertising , suddenly

1:07:28

found the ability to track with data

1:07:31

how successful their ads were . Right , and

1:07:34

whether that's entirely true

1:07:36

or not . Obviously there's a lot of bots , there's a lot of false numbers

1:07:38

out there , but when marketing

1:07:40

directors for brands

1:07:42

could say I'll place an ad here and I can see the

1:07:44

direct result of the number of people we

1:07:47

had looking at our ad and

1:07:49

potentially ways to increase that right Change

1:07:52

from buying a beautiful print ad in a magazine

1:07:54

or a newspaper , right , and so that's what's changed

1:07:57

publishing in the last 10 to

1:07:59

15 years especially . The other thing that's

1:08:01

changed is there's a lot more content out there , right

1:08:03

, like this amazing

1:08:05

podcast , bad Boy Running emerged and

1:08:07

is telling really true stories . Right , and

1:08:10

there's a lot of great other content

1:08:13

contributors in the trail

1:08:15

space , billy Yang Billy Yang has put

1:08:17

out some great videos , right . Single

1:08:19

track podcast you

1:08:21

know Debo's free trail , right , and so there's

1:08:24

a lot of things going on around the world that are producing

1:08:26

content on a kind

1:08:28

of startup , entrepreneurial level that

1:08:31

could be small but impactful

1:08:34

, right . And so you know , outside , famously

1:08:36

, has bought a lot of publications in the

1:08:38

US and is trying a different

1:08:40

model to consolidate numbers and audience

1:08:43

and then using that platform with

1:08:45

a wide range of viewers

1:08:47

to be able to obviously maximize

1:08:50

content optimization that way

1:08:52

. And so certainly there's again

1:08:54

two different

1:08:56

extremes , so to speak , but obviously a whole

1:08:58

kind of green field in the middle that

1:09:00

exists , based on , I think

1:09:03

, still , good content . Good content is king , right

1:09:05

, and so you know , there's a lot of rules today when

1:09:07

you have a good story or a good story to

1:09:10

tell . Even among podcasts , the best ones are

1:09:12

the ones that tell good stories , right . And so , pulling back

1:09:15

to me , that's always been my goal to

1:09:17

tell good stories right . And

1:09:19

I think my journalistic background and

1:09:21

my connection to the sport , both knowing the athletes , being

1:09:23

at the races , running

1:09:26

the races myself , certainly gives me that opportunity

1:09:28

. And you know , everybody comes

1:09:30

from a different way . You know , somebody might be a video storyteller

1:09:33

, like Billy Yang . I come from a more writing background

1:09:35

, but I think that everyone has their own way

1:09:37

of telling stories , and you included

1:09:39

you know , debo included . I think it's an exciting

1:09:42

time because there is so much content .

1:09:45

And for the listener at home who , if they don't

1:09:47

follow you already or

1:09:49

they haven't read all of your articles , is there one article

1:09:52

out there on the internet that people can

1:09:54

see that you'd say this is the one that

1:09:56

I think is the

1:09:58

best story I've ever crafted

1:10:01

to get people in .

1:10:03

Well , I'd like to say I haven't written that story yet , right ? I

1:10:06

mean like , and so I'm not sure you've had

1:10:08

to answer that , because you know the

1:10:10

whole 10,000 hours theory applies to me . I've

1:10:12

probably written 10,000 articles , right , a

1:10:14

lot of which are about running and trail running , and so

1:10:16

I'd like to say that , like

1:10:19

, I'm working on a couple right now that

1:10:21

will come out in the next week

1:10:23

or two weeks that

1:10:25

are , I think , at the essence

1:10:27

of the best work I've done . I wrote

1:10:29

this piece last Friday for Outside about

1:10:32

this Max Vert Challenge where

1:10:34

this guy got 5,000 , or

1:10:36

506,000 feet of

1:10:38

vert in one month , right , and the crazy

1:10:40

story's behind it and all that stuff . So that's a story . There's

1:10:43

another story I wrote a story about this

1:10:46

guy who ran this 50 mile

1:10:48

world record yesterday and then , like

1:10:50

I'm working on a story that's going to launch soon about this base jumping world

1:10:52

record that's tied to this trail running

1:10:54

, like this guy , you know , went up and down . He

1:10:56

ran more vertical than UTMB while

1:10:59

base jumping 102 times , and like stories

1:11:01

like that Is that the one Allie's going for . Allie's

1:11:04

in the story , but she wants

1:11:06

to do the record as well , but

1:11:08

this guy just blew it out of the water . But that story will

1:11:11

be published soon . So I think that , like the

1:11:13

essence of everything I do , certainly

1:11:15

, I think , is tied to

1:11:17

a lot of articles I put out , and so you can . You know , you can

1:11:19

find my social media or my

1:11:21

website , and there's a bunch of articles linked there . But

1:11:23

I think that I'm always working on that . Next thing , I

1:11:25

think , you know , I like to think that what inspires

1:11:27

me is I haven't done my best work yet

1:11:29

, you know , and I think that , like I'm always

1:11:32

eager to tell stories and like I've got

1:11:34

a really good one that you know is gonna

1:11:36

it's coming out soon that I can't even talk about because

1:11:38

I don't want to give it away , but it'll come out in the next

1:11:40

couple of weeks and it's , you know , it's a crazy

1:11:42

story but tied to running , and you know

1:11:44

the people that are involved . So , anyway , that's what

1:11:47

fuels me , just telling good stories .

1:11:49

And if people want to follow on socials , what's the best

1:11:52

handle for you ?

1:11:54

Yeah , brian underscore Metzler

1:11:57

on Instagram is the biggest one Probably

1:11:59

. I post some stuff there and then my website is bryanmetzlercom

1:12:02

. But yeah , and

1:12:04

then of course , all the outside channel . I write a lot for outside

1:12:06

online trailrunnermagcom . So

1:12:10

those are the biggest ones . But you

1:12:12

know , come spend a day with me and

1:12:14

you can probably learn more about me or the sport than you'll

1:12:17

ever want to know .

1:12:19

Amazing . Well , thank you so much for coming to the podcast

1:12:21

. I can't wait to be seeing you . I

1:12:24

hope you get the run show in Boston but on

1:12:26

tour next year as well , and if there's anything

1:12:28

we can do as a podcast to help you with

1:12:30

anything in the future , let me know .

1:12:33

I will say two things . One , it's been fascinating to

1:12:35

meet you and obviously connect with you , and

1:12:37

certainly I love your podcast . Caffeine

1:12:40

Bull is a big thing to my heart because I'm a huge caffeine

1:12:42

fan . I'm holding up a Red Bull right now . I

1:12:45

live on caffeine , but

1:12:47

yeah , it's been fun to engage because I think

1:12:49

that certainly you bring great stories as well . I

1:12:52

love your character , your personality , and so , yeah , I look forward

1:12:54

to more interactions with you as soon as we

1:12:56

can .

1:12:57

And next time in Parsi , free London , let me know , because

1:12:59

we've got spare bedrooms and we need to get

1:13:02

a drink in London style .

1:13:04

Absolutely , and next time you're in Colorado we can go donkey

1:13:07

racing , which we didn't even talk about . We can go donkey racing

1:13:09

here in Colorado . I've needed that , but that's

1:13:11

the story for the day .

1:13:12

Absolutely , and I've heard some good stories

1:13:14

to do with Salomon and that , but also Christopher

1:13:17

McDougal talked

1:13:19

about it when he did an episode about that . It sounds

1:13:22

incredible . Well , thank you so much again , and

1:13:24

we'll be singing , surely ? Cheers , brian .

1:13:27

Thanks for having me Cheers .

1:13:36

Well , there you go , dude . Bad as it

1:13:39

was just me today , because I know Brian so well

1:13:41

, I thought we'd be a bit of a loving , but really

1:13:43

, really interesting because there's there's

1:13:45

not many people on earth who understand trail running

1:13:48

and ultra running , particularly America

1:13:50

, american ultra running . You know America trail

1:13:52

as much as Brian and

1:13:54

, to be fair , most times of

1:13:57

me with him we just have chas like

1:13:59

that down the pub for hours , and so

1:14:01

hopefully that's been quite

1:14:03

insightful to you . And

1:14:06

yeah , it is really

1:14:08

going to be interesting to see how the spectrum

1:14:10

of races and series changes over

1:14:12

these next three years , because there

1:14:15

is a lot of money coming into the sport , a lot

1:14:17

of new sponsors that I don't think has

1:14:19

even filtered down yet

1:14:21

or was perceived by

1:14:23

the population as

1:14:25

much as we're noticing

1:14:28

in terms of contracts , new

1:14:31

teams emerging , new kit and stuff

1:14:33

, and so with

1:14:35

all that money flooding in

1:14:37

, that's going to have even more of an impact on these races

1:14:40

and hopefully the challenge will

1:14:42

be is hopefully we can maintain

1:14:44

that community and

1:14:46

maintain that integrity as well within

1:14:49

the sport whilst also

1:14:51

bringing on new people without

1:14:54

diminishing the the

1:14:57

impact of the other races and

1:14:59

the feeling of those races . So , but

1:15:01

do bad , as if you like this episode , try

1:15:03

to give other good episodes to

1:15:05

. To listen to Alex

1:15:07

Alex , what's Alex's surname

1:15:10

? From outside magazine and

1:15:12

then he wrote the book in jaw

1:15:14

. I should know his name off the top of my head , but

1:15:16

we spoke to him about writing

1:15:19

some of his articles for outside magazine . We've

1:15:21

done an episode with women's running which we

1:15:23

recorded in a brew dog . That was super

1:15:26

fun . That was a live episode where

1:15:28

they their train was delayed , so JD and I

1:15:30

got a little bit tipsy before they arrived and

1:15:32

then all hell broke loose . That's

1:15:34

another one I'd recommend . And

1:15:37

on top of that and

1:15:40

one other episode that is from a long

1:15:43

time ago , episode 117

1:15:46

with Ralu Was that Ralu's

1:15:49

surname ? Who was

1:15:51

the ? The editor of the

1:15:53

running bug , ralu Alahand , and we talked

1:15:55

all about real buzz , the rise

1:15:57

of these online at

1:16:00

the time , running magazine style websites

1:16:02

along the closed , and I'm really

1:16:04

talking about the transition from old media to

1:16:06

new media Really really interesting . And she is

1:16:08

super fun . Talks about a story

1:16:11

when she's running in Romania and wakes

1:16:13

up in a random guy's house being

1:16:15

fed soup . None of them could

1:16:17

speak English , but thanks for listening

1:16:19

, guys . If there's any recommendations

1:16:21

of guests , subjects , topics , races

1:16:24

, things for us to talk about . The message meet David at badboyrunningcom

1:16:27

or message on Instagram

1:16:29

. And , as we always ask

1:16:31

, please do reviews on either

1:16:33

Spotify , itunes , wherever it is , because it

1:16:35

really helps with the profile of the podcast

1:16:38

and it helps us get great guests like

1:16:40

Brian in the future . Thanks for listening and we'll see you next

1:16:42

time , but a bye , bye , bye , bye

1:16:44

, but a bye , bye , bye , bye , but

1:16:47

a bye , bye , bye , bye , but a bye , bye , bye

1:16:49

, bye . I must admit I was a

1:16:51

clown to be messing around

1:16:54

.

1:16:54

But that doesn't mean that you

1:16:56

have to leave town . Come back

1:16:58

.

1:16:59

Yes , and give me one more

1:17:01

try , because I love like this

1:17:03

. Should I never , ever die ? Come

1:17:06

back , fuck you , buddy .