0:00

Hello , dude banners . I've just finished

0:02

this next interview . It's amazing

0:05

. Not only do we talk about running

0:08

50k on LSD , but actually

0:12

this interview really

0:14

goes into a lot more depth to

0:16

do with the history of psychedelics

0:19

, to do with Sarah's experience of

0:21

overcoming depression

0:24

by using psychedelics

0:27

as well , and really

0:29

going into how they're defined , how

0:31

they're different to each other , what the experience

0:33

is like . There's just lots and lots of things

0:35

. She is an expert in this field

0:37

. She's also a professional comedian and

0:40

, yeah , you're just going

0:42

to be intrigued about this the

0:44

whole way through . It's a fantastic interview

0:47

, so take it away , nick . They're

0:51

bad , they're boys and

0:53

occasionally they talk about running

0:56

.

0:56

Yes , it's the Bad Boy Running Podcast

0:59

with your hosts Jody Rainsford

1:01

and David Heller .

1:19

So , dude banners , we always ask

1:21

you for you to recommend

1:23

either topics or for people's for us to

1:25

interview , and we've never really done

1:27

a proper . There's been a few people

1:29

along the years that have we've

1:31

mentioned that we know are

1:33

involved in drugs or have linked

1:36

to drugs , but we've never actually

1:38

done a proper episode with

1:41

someone who has done a full

1:43

ultra on drugs

1:45

until our next guest was

1:47

suggested , having done a

1:49

LSD 50k , which

1:51

, if you're going to do a race on drugs , lsd

1:54

is the one I'm most intrigued about , to

1:56

hear about how it goes . But more

1:58

than that , she's also a comedian

2:02

, a science comedian , a drugs

2:04

comedian and many things in between . So

2:06

I'm fascinated about this next guest

2:08

. Thanks so much for coming to the podcast , the wonderful Sarah

2:11

Siskin .

2:13

Yeah

2:18

, and the crowd goes wild . The only

2:20

edit I would say to that intro is that

2:22

I've run it twice , so I've done

2:24

it last year , this year and four

2:27

years ago .

2:28

So the burning man experiences .

2:32

Well , the first time it was like a walking

2:35

on the moon , because it was like one

2:37

small step for this druggy

2:39

, one giant leap forward

2:41

for the generation of psychonauts

2:44

. The first time was like I was , like you

2:46

know , very worried about it and

2:49

I had done like a practice

2:51

run , like I had like talked to the doctor , like

2:53

I took it very seriously because I never

2:55

had the doctor , I know that comes

2:57

in gay , not my doctor

3:00

, but a doctor , friend

3:02

of mine about who's like into

3:04

psychedelics . So obviously like , yeah

3:07

, I would not talk to my doctor about this

3:09

venture Anyway

3:12

, and I'd done like a practice run where I did

3:14

half a tab and half marathon

3:16

and

3:18

so I kind of knew what I was getting into

3:20

. But I was still nervous the

3:23

second year . The second time that

3:25

I ran it most recently , so like two

3:27

months ago I was

3:30

really nervous

3:32

, even though I'd done it before . Here's the big

3:34

change the second time there are two big changes

3:36

. The first one is that

3:39

a lot of other people were

3:42

doing it because they'd seen my video

3:44

and so that was

3:46

interesting . And

3:49

the second reason it was different is because I was

3:51

very nervous because I had I was

3:53

going to propose to my boyfriend the

3:55

next day and I had

3:57

to get down on one knee and

3:59

I was worried about being really sore

4:03

and not being able to do that .

4:05

We've both proposed at the end of alchers

4:07

.

4:09

Oh yeah , Well , so I didn't want to do

4:11

it at the very end , because

4:13

you know , but I do a tripping ball

4:15

.

4:16

See you next time .

4:18

I'd be like . Did I propose to the right person ?

4:22

Well , should we rewind it ? Because I

4:26

haven't . I don't truly understand

4:28

the how

4:31

drugs are in America

4:34

Because I mean , I've been to Colorado , where

4:36

there are drugs on sales

4:38

in Colorado Sprint or Manatee Springs

4:40

, but not in Colorado Springs . I know

4:42

that marijuana is legalized in some

4:44

places and there's obviously

4:46

a huge adoption in the

4:49

psyche of some

4:51

individuals with people like Huntress Thompson , but how

4:54

, when it comes to things like psychedelics

4:57

, like , do you feel comfortable

4:59

just talking about it wherever you go

5:01

? Is it just seen as being something

5:04

that's accepted in cities

5:07

or like what is American

5:09

?

5:09

relationship with drugs these days . Yeah

5:12

, it's a great question , Because the reason you were like , oh , you talked with

5:14

your doctor about psychedelics

5:17

and I was like , no , not my doctor is because

5:19

I actually had talked to a

5:21

psychiatrist and had told him that

5:24

I found psychedelics useful for treating

5:26

depression and

5:28

he immediately diagnosed me with having a

5:30

what's it called

5:33

substance use disorder that's the

5:35

new word for addiction now and

5:37

I , you know , tried to assuage him . I was like no , no , no , no

5:39

, no , no , no , like I have . Only I haven't

5:41

done it consistently . It doesn't interfere with my life and

5:44

you know all the diagnostic criteria against

5:47

having a disorder . But

5:49

I was barred from using , from trying

5:51

, different pharmaceuticals . I was like

5:53

, yeah , like it was horrible . It took

5:55

years working within that clinic

5:57

to meet a new psychiatrist

6:00

and to tell them like the

6:02

context in which I was using psychedelics

6:04

was very intentional

6:06

and does not have any of the diagnostic

6:09

criteria of a substance use disorder

6:11

. I also , you know my parents

6:13

were extraordinarily

6:16

unhappy about my public discussions of

6:19

psychedelics . So there's certainly

6:22

. I act like publicly as if

6:24

there's no stigma , because I'm trying to

6:26

reduce the stigma . I'm trying to do

6:28

what essentially gay

6:31

people did in like the early 2000s

6:34

, where there was just a lot of like public outing

6:36

and part of that was to de-stigmatize homosexuality

6:39

. And though you know

6:41

that's it's , you know there's

6:43

huge I'm not making moral equivalencies

6:46

here Like that's its own struggle

6:48

but it's a great tactic for

6:50

de-stigmatization . So I

6:53

would say you know like America

6:55

is certainly progressing rapidly

6:57

legally , academically and

6:59

medically towards the acceptance of psychedelics

7:02

as well . As you know , recreationally has

7:04

always been safe , it's always

7:06

been good , but in those

7:08

other fields it's increasing . I will

7:10

say in England , for you guys across

7:13

the pond , there's a lot of really

7:15

great academic work being done by , as you know

7:17

, like Robin Carhart Harris at Imperial

7:19

College London . I haven't seen as much

7:21

legal momentum as

7:25

there is .

7:25

Yeah , oh , is that .

7:27

Yeah , well done . I am

7:29

a big , big fan . They did

7:31

the largest citizen science

7:33

study on microdosing

7:35

that has ever been done , fascinating

7:38

study . I won't bore you with the details , but

7:40

just suffice it to say , yeah

7:43

, be super proud . You're

7:45

proud of London Anyway

7:47

they never asked me .

7:49

They never asked me to get involved in

7:51

that study . Well , we'll go in back then to

7:54

, because I have

7:58

read about how psychedelics

8:00

can potentially help with depression

8:02

. How did that come about for

8:04

you , like ? Was that a chance

8:06

combination , or was this something

8:09

that was known at the time that you could

8:11

sort out ?

8:15

So the first time I tried

8:17

psychedelics was recreationally and

8:20

I was maybe 26

8:22

, maybe 25

8:25

, and I went

8:27

into a bouncy house

8:29

, as one does , which is one of those like

8:32

inflatable houses when bounces around

8:34

and and I sat

8:36

in the corner and observe people

8:38

.

8:39

Had you taken the drugs at this stage , or you

8:41

?

8:42

Yes , somehow the psychedelics

8:44

precipitated me being inside a bouncy

8:47

castle .

8:48

But a literal bouncy car Also there

8:50

was just let's go right . So the

8:52

first time with did a friend suggest

8:55

to you ? Did you go to it like

8:57

, took us through that first occasion .

9:01

So the first occasion and actually was when

9:03

I was , I think it was like 23 I had not yet

9:05

experienced clinical depression and

9:07

this was the purely recreational experience

9:09

I went to a festival . I was

9:12

given the opportunity and I said why not

9:14

I ? Because

9:16

it was a festival . There was this bouncy

9:18

house and when I was inside

9:20

and I was observing people , I had a thought

9:22

about game theory like

9:24

a mathematical paradigm about how people

9:26

behave with objectives

9:29

, and I kept

9:31

like it was such an interesting thought that

9:33

I had and it was about how people were bouncing

9:36

in the house and it was sort

9:38

of like that scene in a beautiful

9:40

mind . When Russell Crowe is

9:42

like seeing he has this

9:44

like game theory epiphany , it

9:47

was like this beautiful moment . And a

9:49

year later but for a

9:51

year so I have a beautiful experience but for

9:53

a year I was talking with a

9:55

game theoretician who was doing

9:57

his PhD in math at

10:00

NYU and I ran by

10:02

him this random theory

10:04

I came up with and he said that's actually quite

10:06

an insightful theory

10:08

about game theory and

10:11

I that was the first inkling

10:13

that I was like , oh wait , a second

10:16

, you don't just have dumb

10:18

thoughts while on psychedelics that aren't

10:20

valuable , and it

10:23

reached me because of the validation

10:25

of this person with traditional success

10:28

that was like intellectually this has merit and

10:31

that would led the ground , the

10:34

sort of like groundwork for me later to realize

10:36

like they can actually have therapeutic benefits , experiencing

10:40

that personally before I started reading about the studies about it . So

10:42

that was like step one

10:44

.

10:46

Was that LSD ? Was that mushrooms ? Is that

10:48

?

10:51

So the the

10:53

next couple of years I experienced

10:56

like very severe major

10:58

depressive disorder , and

11:01

I don't respond well to SSRIs

11:03

. I

11:05

do recommend people try pharmaceuticals because

11:07

they've been studied longer . Ssris

11:10

are not as effective as we think they are , unfortunately

11:13

, but they're still good to try . Anyway

11:15

, they did not work for me , and so I was interested

11:17

in trying psychedelics , and

11:20

the first one that I

11:22

tried in

11:24

like a major way was MDMA , and

11:30

I was at Burning man in 2018

11:33

and I was very depressed

11:35

and I was horrified that depression

11:37

would follow me here into this festival , and so I wanted

11:39

I manifested MDMA . I

11:43

was like I'd love to try some . I've heard , I've

11:45

read that it is useful for trauma . You know my beautiful for depression

11:48

and

11:53

a guy entered into my life

11:56

, as they do , who claimed to

11:58

be a Russian shaman , red flag number one . What

12:01

did he look like ? What was the dress

12:03

? This Russian shaman ?

12:05

Obviously a vest with no shirt underneath

12:08

.

12:11

Like a fur vest , no shirt underneath

12:13

. I'm visualizing the guy from the Capitol

12:15

riots that deed .

12:16

Yeah , I'm visualizing the guy from the Capitol riots .

12:20

Yes , pretty much without the hat , but like

12:22

close enough , yeah , maybe

12:24

somehow , like he

12:26

made that guy look low key , anyway . So

12:31

he gave me what long

12:33

story short . He gave me what he

12:35

claimed was MDMA

12:38

, which I took and

12:40

turned out to be a fentanyl

12:42

and PCP . And

12:44

after taking this concoction I

12:47

passed out . I was paralyzed

12:49

for about 10 hours , was taken to the hospital yes , there

12:51

is a hospital , a burning man . I

12:54

had to be like picked up by paramedics and

12:57

you know I was trying to tell them like I'm

12:59

an upstanding citizen , you know I never do this

13:01

kind of study and

13:04

they were like , what do you do for a living ? And

13:07

I was like I'm a stand up comedian , I

13:10

promise I usually can stand up

13:12

. And so they were like carrying

13:14

me like a rag doll to the hospital

13:16

bed . And we

13:19

found out later it was fentanyl and PCP

13:21

because they found the guy , the Russian

13:23

shaman , who had given it to me because he had

13:25

also taken it , and

13:28

he was also taken to the hospital .

13:30

So it wasn't intent . He

13:33

also had basically made the same mistake

13:35

he thought it was MDMA

13:37

.

13:38

As a matter of fact , he had taken more and

13:40

was catatonic and had to be defibrillated

13:42

or like there's a type of sternal

13:44

rub that is like so intense that leaves

13:47

scars on your chest , and

13:49

he was in much worse shape than I was

13:51

. Oh my God , I just had this moment

13:53

where I was like , oh

13:55

, what I thought was malice was

13:58

actually ignorance , and a lot

14:00

, a lot of death and

14:03

harm

14:05

that comes out of illegal

14:08

drugs really is due

14:10

to ignorance . And I really

14:12

became passionate in educating

14:15

people about this . And it really

14:18

was a post-traumatic growth situation

14:20

where I found this like holy

14:23

calling of educating people

14:25

about psychedelics . And

14:27

so I started my show Drug Test , which

14:29

is an educational show about psychedelics

14:31

and other drugs , to truly get people

14:34

to test their supplies

14:36

, read about like the interesting protocols

14:38

for taking psychedelics , like learn which

14:41

one works for them , you know , like really

14:43

like not abstinence based

14:45

education at all , like truly

14:47

the kind of drug

14:49

education you should have gotten in high school

14:52

.

14:52

And would festivals in the

14:54

US ? Are there free

14:57

drug tests and stuff like that , for example ?

15:00

Great question . So a lot

15:02

of them I'm not sure all of them , but

15:04

a lot of them have a group called

15:06

Dance Safe at the

15:09

festival where they will test a tiny

15:11

little bit of whatever drug you come there with

15:13

and they'll tell you very quickly if

15:16

this is the substance

15:18

you were sold or not . And I have a

15:20

kit . They're like super cheap . Recommend

15:22

it , it'll save your life , truly truly . I

15:24

am an upstanding citizen . I almost died from a fentanyl

15:27

overdose by a kit DanceSafecom

15:30

. They've got kits , they're amazing . And

15:33

there's a really great institution called the Zendo

15:36

Project . The Zendo Project

15:38

is I volunteer

15:40

there . It's a peer to peer

15:42

support system . So we're

15:44

trained , we know

15:46

how to sit with people who are having difficult

15:49

psychedelic experiences , but also

15:51

any kind of like psychiatric

15:53

, psychological experiences , to

15:56

be present with you and it is very

15:58

therapeutic . So , and they're also at

16:00

a lot of festivals .

16:03

And just to remind me , it's fentanyl

16:06

, because we is that the same

16:08

as oxytocin .

16:11

No , so are you thinking of OxyCosin ?

16:13

So OxyCosin Sorry , I just had a baby

16:16

of Oxy . Everything , yeah , is that ? Is that

16:18

a full ? You had a baby .

16:19

Very impressive , what a medical miracle .

16:23

A miracle Anyway .

16:24

OxyCosin is the love drug that your brain

16:26

releases .

16:27

Yes , oxycosin , is that ? Is

16:29

fentanyl the same as that , or ?

16:31

it is like OxyCosin times

16:34

a million in terms of

16:36

potency . So OxyCosin

16:39

is a pharmaceutical drug , a legal pharmaceutical

16:42

drug for pain management that works on the exact

16:44

same receptors as fentanyl

16:47

, which is also used by doctors

16:49

but anesthesiologists who know

16:51

how to dose it , because the amount

16:53

of fentanyl that will kill you is like hard

16:55

to see with the eye , like it's

16:57

a couple of grains , and so

16:59

it's why it's super dangerous for people to

17:02

use . However , it works

17:04

on very like almost exactly the

17:06

same receptor system as OxyCosin , so

17:09

there's a lot of similarities . It's

17:11

the same family .

17:12

And I guess if you're a dealer , then if it is

17:14

that toxic it's probably

17:16

very , very

17:19

financially just

17:21

a good business model to ship , because

17:24

you can get a huge amount from a small dose Right

17:27

.

17:28

That's exactly right . There's another benefit , which

17:30

is that it doesn't stay in your system as long

17:32

, so like a kind of as

17:34

opposed to like morphine , so like and I want

17:36

to caution you and your audience from

17:39

this type of thinking , which is that

17:41

, ooh , that's a bad drug . Ooh

17:43

, psychedelics , that's a good drug . Every

17:45

drug has its application . I

17:48

had a surgery a couple of years ago and

17:50

I didn't want to have fentanyl

17:52

because I told the anesthesiologists I was

17:54

like I almost died because

17:56

of fentanyl and he said sit

17:58

down , let me talk to you about this . Fentanyl

18:01

is one of the greatest drugs I have ever

18:03

encountered and proceeded to tell me

18:05

how it had reduced the price

18:07

of surgery for everybody involved

18:10

, how it is so it

18:12

, like it leaves your system . So , unlike morphine

18:14

that leaves you groggy for a really long time

18:16

, it actually leaves your system . So

18:19

like people are like less inclined to

18:21

want to continue . The sort of opioid

18:23

high Like . It is a

18:25

miracle drug on a lot

18:27

of different levels . If you

18:29

have the equipment to

18:32

properly handle it and

18:35

if you're using it in a context , that is a good context

18:37

, which is a situation

18:40

in which you really need to

18:42

not be aware of physical pain and

18:46

pain . Sometimes you need

18:48

to feel like we're all we're runners here , like

18:51

this is why we don't take , you

18:53

know , ibuprofen constantly

18:55

during a run . Like

18:57

you do need to feel pain or you'll

18:59

hurt yourself , right ?

19:00

So psychedelics

19:03

like you know , skipping ahead to the actual race .

19:05

Psychedelics are a bizarre choice to take

19:07

while running , because

19:12

they actually increase proprioception , which is your

19:14

sense of yourself and what you're feeling . That's what we were talking

19:16

before we came on .

19:17

We were like wouldn't that make every pain really amplified

19:19

? The answer is yes . The

19:22

answer is yes .

19:23

But it also makes you enjoy

19:25

things and make you feel better . It

19:27

also makes you enjoy things

19:29

and makes you feel united

19:32

with the cosmos , and that can trump

19:34

pain . Also , it

19:36

didn't it didn't enhance the

19:38

sense of pain , but what

19:40

that did is that and because I wasn't

19:42

trying to run for time or anything , I

19:45

decided while running I

19:48

was like I'm going to

19:50

grapevine , I'm going to run backwards

19:52

, and I would just do it as soon as I started

19:54

feeling much stiffness in my hamstrings

19:56

, which I've never done before , and

19:58

I promise you I had no soreness

20:01

the next day . This is the one miracle of

20:03

running on LSD is that I

20:05

had no soreness the next day

20:07

.

20:08

But everything I mean my time was terrible .

20:11

Yeah , yeah , for the 50 K . I think

20:13

it was like five and a half

20:15

hours or six hours even . It

20:17

was really bad .

20:19

I mean , that's , that's a perfectly acceptable time

20:21

. But going back to the

20:24

this comedy routine

20:26

you did to do with drugs then , because

20:29

that that in itself is

20:31

can be quite isolating

20:33

for an audience . How , how well

20:35

, how well receptive , how

20:38

well received was that and

20:41

what is a typical bit

20:43

of content in there ?

20:46

Oh boy , you're asking me to do my set

20:48

now Dish .

20:50

Well , not the set , because I mean asking a comedian

20:52

like say something funny . Obviously

20:55

is is unfair , but I

20:57

mean , was it very educational

20:59

? Was it more kind of shocking

21:01

or like , how does it go down with audiences

21:04

?

21:05

Yeah , so well , I will say

21:07

I get self selected . You know , the people

21:09

who see me are usually already interested

21:11

in drugs , but there's actually a fair amount of

21:13

people in my audience who've never tried to say gadelic

21:16

. They're just kind of like interested

21:18

in the science . It's kind of nerdy stuff

21:20

I will make jokes about

21:22

, like the history of medical

21:25

innovations , medical psychiatric

21:27

innovations , because people don't realize

21:29

how accidental and insane

21:32

like drug discovery

21:34

is . Like truly , truly . 150

21:37

years ago , if you had

21:39

like a wet cough , your doctor

21:41

might be like oh yes , you have ghosts in your blood

21:43

and you should do cocaine about it .

21:45

Here's one dram of cocaine

21:48

and we were like OK , that's one , yeah

21:50

, yeah .

21:51

Like people were drinking latinum

21:53

. Latinum was like a cure , all

21:55

that . People would just like drink all the time . That is literally

21:58

heroin plus

22:00

alcohol , Like that's what that is

22:02

. And then in the 1950s

22:04

, like if you were like kind of

22:06

down because you know , if you're a housewife

22:09

and you didn't want to do the housework , you

22:11

could just see doctor feel good and he would give

22:13

you more pep , which was

22:15

straight up meth . Like

22:18

people don't realize how in the 50s

22:20

all these fucking housewives were

22:22

met out of their minds , Like

22:25

so like we put you

22:27

know brand names on drugs .

22:28

That wasn't music better .

22:32

Well , that's because math

22:34

helps with music . I think Psychedelics

22:36

do , and that would be the Beatles , your

22:38

people . So thank you for bringing those into

22:41

the world . But yeah

22:43

, we put these fancy labels

22:45

like Adderall , Ritalin

22:47

on drugs , but their

22:50

psychoactive parts are remarkably

22:52

similar to stimulants

22:55

that are amphetamines . And

22:57

we kind of do this thing as a society

23:00

where we put meth

23:02

in a tuxedo and now it's Adderall

23:04

.

23:05

Yeah , absolutely , and

23:09

I think especially in probably

23:11

more so in America than elsewhere as well , actually just

23:14

because of the power of the pharmaceuticals and

23:17

also the power of Nixon's rampage

23:19

against drugs . And

23:22

so you've had you've

23:24

ended this comedy set

23:26

, but you mentioned

23:29

what happened with your depression then , because at

23:31

that stage you hadn't had an opportunity to actually

23:33

attempt to try and

23:35

remedy it .

23:38

Yeah , oh my gosh , they're so unbelievably

23:41

helpful . So , while running the

23:43

first time on LSD

23:45

, running at 50K , and it's

23:48

the first time I've ever done anything like

23:50

this it's like 7am

23:53

, the sun , it's still kind of

23:55

hazy from the sunrise and

23:58

I'm running past this camp

24:00

it's like mile 12

24:02

or something at this point and I'm running past this camp

24:04

at Burning man that is spanking themed

24:07

and somebody's been

24:09

up late that night the

24:11

night before spanking away and

24:13

they're still outside getting

24:15

spanked . And

24:18

I make eye contact with one

24:20

of the spankies , the

24:22

person getting spanked , and

24:24

I look at them and I'm like that's weird , that's

24:26

crazy . And he looks at me and

24:29

he's seeing that I'm running an ultramarathon

24:31

at 7am . He doesn't even know that I'm on acid

24:34

, but he's making eye contact with me

24:36

, being like that's crazy . But

24:38

we were both so blissed out , he from getting

24:40

spanked , me from running an ultramarathon

24:43

on acid . It was this moment of mutual

24:45

acknowledgement , of follow your bliss

24:48

wherever that takes you , even if

24:50

it means you're doing these crazy

24:52

things . And it was such a

24:54

beautiful kinship and I truly

24:56

felt a profound sense

24:59

of joy . Profound

25:02

joy was not a concept I had

25:04

felt before . Joy

25:07

was fleeting and superficial and

25:10

not important . But

25:12

this was something true and honestly

25:14

it led me on the path of

25:17

getting tools from

25:19

psychedelics that would help me respond

25:22

to my depression . I don't think you ever truly

25:25

kick it your brain

25:27

. You might have a difference in the neurochemicals

25:29

in your brain and maybe you don't experience

25:32

depression , but most people I know they

25:34

still experience depression . They just have

25:36

really good tools , internal tools

25:38

, for fighting it .

25:41

And so would you say then that

25:43

moment of joy ? Because if

25:46

we were to contrast yourself

25:48

with someone who wouldn't

25:50

be aware that they've had a

25:52

depression or don't see

25:54

themselves as being depressive , would

25:57

you say that prior to that

25:59

moment , it's that your life

26:01

had been lacking joy , or

26:03

that the chemicals are making you feel that

26:05

you weren't ? Or was that experience

26:07

at a higher level to most people's

26:10

joy , and that it took you to that

26:12

level that then changed your outlook on everything

26:14

else ?

26:18

I certainly had joy while being depressed and prior to

26:20

being depressed . I temporarily

26:23

I kind of

26:25

sometimes operate under a bipolar

26:28

2 diagnosis , which is because

26:30

my episodic , my depression

26:32

is rather episodic , like it usually is

26:35

very , very , very intense , but

26:37

for only like five days , that

26:40

doesn't . I fall between

26:42

the cracks of diagnoses , and diagnoses

26:45

are very strict because they are essentially mandated

26:48

by insurance codes so that you

26:50

can receive a certain pharmaceutical

26:52

, and that really drives

26:54

a lot of like the categories we have , as

26:56

in America , about mental disorders

26:59

. I operate sometimes under major

27:01

depressive , sometimes under manic depressive

27:05

, depending on the drugs that suit me

27:07

. In general , mood stabilizers

27:10

suit me far better than SSRIs

27:12

. So long winded

27:14

answer to your question I

27:17

had certainly experienced joy . It

27:19

just was that I , in

27:21

those moments of depression , it was

27:23

truly like I couldn't remember joy

27:25

. It just didn't penetrate

27:28

, there was no light penetrating

27:30

the darkness and I thought it would last

27:32

forever , which is another hallmark

27:35

of depression . So

27:37

truly the

27:39

difference is just simply now

27:41

I remember , because those

27:44

moments of joy I've experienced

27:46

were so profound that

27:48

they are like light piercing through the darkness

27:50

.

27:52

Is it profound or is it just that visualization

27:55

of that guy being spanked

27:57

with such joyous

27:59

to say you just can't get out ? Even

28:02

I've got that burnt into my mind and

28:04

I haven't seen it .

28:06

If you have never seen somebody getting profoundly

28:09

spanked before that's a shame

28:11

. No , I think you can find

28:13

God in a porter potty if

28:16

you look hard enough . Like truly

28:18

, that is . To me , the lesson of

28:20

psychedelics was like I

28:23

had expected people

28:27

who found peace to have

28:29

this religious sacredness

28:32

about it . But

28:34

I am not a sacred person as a

28:36

comedian , it's just not my temperament

28:38

. And what psychedelics taught me

28:40

is that I could find profundity

28:42

and meaning in the silliest

28:45

things . But they're silly , but they still

28:47

mean so much . Those two

28:49

things are not diametrically

28:52

opposed , and so for

28:54

me , that's what really drove my

28:56

show and my career as

28:59

a psychedelic comedian . That

29:01

career was this sense of like

29:03

we can talk about the profundity

29:05

of psychedelic healing

29:07

and enlightenment without

29:11

sounding like a sanctimonious asshole

29:13

.

29:14

And say no if you were to start

29:17

to kind of enter a depressive episode ? Is

29:20

it that this awareness

29:22

of joy means

29:25

that you never get dragged down too deep ? Effectively

29:28

, it's almost like a buoyancy aid

29:30

that you can hold on to .

29:32

That's one thing For sure

29:35

. It's one of like so many tools

29:37

. It's sort of like speaking of Marial

29:39

England . Have you

29:41

ever read the classic

29:43

of literature Harry Potter ?

29:46

I have , yes , the first four , not the

29:48

fifth . Fifth is getting too heavy on me .

29:51

I think OK , I think this is in the third . You

29:53

know the patronus , like where you think of a happy

29:55

thought and then you do a spell and

29:58

it comes out as an animal that will prevent

30:00

dementors from attacking him . That is truly

30:02

the metaphor of my life , like if

30:04

depression is a dementor that sucks

30:06

the joy out of your face , then

30:08

, like , psychedelics have helped me experience

30:10

profound joy in the form of a patronus

30:13

that then wards off the

30:15

dementor , like truly the greatest visual metaphor

30:18

for my psychedelic healing

30:20

. Actually , and there's another . Ok

30:22

, there's another . I'm a huge Harry Potter fan . There's

30:25

like another Harry Potter metaphor from the third

30:27

book , book three of Our Lord

30:29

. Do you remember

30:32

when I can't believe

30:34

I'm making this ? Ok , you can cut this later

30:36

if it's stupid . Do you remember

30:38

in book

30:40

three when , like Harry , is having

30:42

his soul sucked by a dementor and

30:45

he sees what he thinks is

30:47

his father ?

30:49

Yes .

30:50

Coming and doing

30:52

a patronus and saving him , and then later

30:54

, and his family . Yes

30:56

, he realizes he uses

30:59

a time turner to go back in time and

31:01

to try to meet his father , the father

31:03

who had saved him . And he's waiting in the woods

31:06

for the father to come

31:08

out and save past Harry . And

31:10

it is only then that he realizes oh

31:12

my God , I didn't see my father . I

31:14

saw me in the future , like

31:17

you know , casting this life saving patronus

31:19

, and that is also

31:22

a great visual metaphor for

31:24

healing . You expect

31:26

somebody else to come along with

31:28

this . Like you know , authoritative

31:31

, big daddy energy that is

31:33

going to save you , but it's always

31:35

yourself .

31:35

It's always yourself , big daddy . The Adam

31:37

Sandler film that kind of .

31:39

No , we're talking .

31:40

No , ok , eternal father .

31:44

Like you know , just like an authoritative energy , but

31:46

it's like you always have to save yourself

31:48

. At the end of the day , nobody else

31:51

is going to save you , and weird

31:53

.

31:54

Do you do you find , then

31:56

, because has is it that one moment

31:58

that

32:00

has created

32:02

that , or

32:04

are you finding you're needing to

32:07

having to constantly like is there is this

32:10

an ongoing relationship with psychedelics

32:13

to help with depression , or

32:15

is that now just something you do for pleasure ? And

32:18

you , you feel that

32:20

you've got that

32:23

awareness of joy enough that even

32:25

without any future drugs , you'd still be

32:27

fine .

32:29

Great question . So

32:32

I've talked only psychologically

32:36

about how they have helped . I

32:38

have less insight psychiatrically

32:41

, which is to say how they've affected my brain

32:43

. There's

32:45

a lot of good research on this , particularly

32:47

certain psychedelics or psychedelic

32:50

adjacent drugs like ketamine . They do change your

32:52

drug , your chemistry of your brain and

32:56

here is the basic mechanism how Neuroplasticity

32:59

is the word . So

33:02

if your brain is sort

33:04

of like an embankment , a hill of snow

33:06

, a

33:09

lot of the times we get these really deep grooves

33:11

, like a sled going down the slope , slope and then like making

33:13

a deep groove . You

33:16

learn when you have PTSD

33:18

, when you hear a loud banging sound , that you are unsafe . And

33:23

that connection between bang and

33:25

unsafety is so deep that when you later are

33:28

a civilian and you hear a bang , you don't

33:31

know how to unlearn the extreme sense

33:35

of unsafety . Psychedelics

33:37

help you regrow the snow , essentially so

33:39

that you don't have such

33:41

deep neural grooves . So

33:45

the next time you hear a bang perhaps you think like I wonder

33:47

if a car back fired

33:49

, or you just listen to it and you

33:51

don't immediately associate it with something . That

33:55

is like the basics of how they work . And

33:58

that's really great for a number of different psychiatric

34:00

conditions

34:03

, because a lot of psychiatric conditions

34:05

are concerned with fixation , which

34:09

is to say like OCD , anxiety , depression , trauma

34:11

. A

34:13

lot of the times it's because you got a deep connection , a deep

34:15

groove that you cannot seem to unlearn

34:18

and are there any

34:21

grooves , though , that actually are useful grooves , or

34:23

grooves that should we be getting

34:25

into , the actual yes

34:29

, like if you have your hand in the fire , remove it .

34:33

So is there a danger , though , that those

34:35

grooves are then unlearned

34:38

? Yes , okay .

34:39

Yeah , which is why , for example , you should never take I mean

34:41

, this is obvious , but you should

34:43

never take psychedelics and operate heavy machinery

34:46

because like you

34:48

really or

34:51

like drive a car . You know , like drive a car because , like you really need

34:53

to be operating

34:55

. There's a philosopher

34:58

guy who has this concept of system one and system two thinking . System

35:00

one , you're sort of on autopilot and system

35:03

two , you're thinking extremely deeply

35:05

about everything when you're operating

35:07

a car . You really got to be in system

35:09

one because you don't want to

35:12

think deeply about , like

35:14

a car is coming towards me , should I turn right or

35:16

should I turn left . You've

35:20

truly got to just be on autopilot and in your driving

35:22

, on autopilot and in your nervous system , these

35:25

are extremely adaptive coping

35:27

mechanisms . Like , really

35:30

, really , if you are . Also , if you're in a battle

35:32

, like if you're in war , if you're a soldier

35:35

, you should not be taking

35:37

psychedelics because , frankly , if you

35:39

hear a boom , you should fucking take cover

35:42

, because you may not , you probably are not

35:44

safe . So there are a number

35:46

of contexts when , when , where

35:48

these coping mechanisms have oh

35:50

my god , are they so useful ? They're the reason we're

35:52

alive , you know , like evolution created

35:55

them for a reason . It's just that

35:57

social evolution has

35:59

surpassed physical evolution . We

36:02

now live in a society where hardly anybody

36:04

really worries about getting eaten Like

36:06

that really doesn't happen that much but

36:08

our nervous systems , our physical nervous

36:10

system , our primordial , we're still used to like

36:13

the physical insecurity of like

36:15

being attacked . And

36:17

so what psychedelics help

36:20

with in this time , in this era , is

36:22

really teaching your nervous , like kind

36:24

of hacking your own nervous system

36:26

a little bit , and your own brain to be like

36:28

okay , listen , your cop

36:31

. Like your father was like

36:33

yell , that you so much as a child

36:35

, but like you're actually safe now

36:37

, like you are truly safe . Here's

36:39

a way to find safety and here's how your body

36:41

can learn that too .

36:44

Okay , interesting , because my friends recently got

36:47

on an ayahuasca retreat and

36:49

that was almost described slightly differently

36:51

. And it's more that you can . You

36:54

can witness your trauma without

36:56

associating it with yourself

36:59

. So it's almost as if it allows

37:01

you to process it from

37:03

a distance without you

37:06

having to relive

37:08

it . But I guess that's slightly

37:11

different .

37:12

Well , I mean like so that is the basics

37:14

of how the MDMA

37:17

PTSD trials work , where it's sort of

37:19

like the most effective way

37:22

people have found to treat

37:24

PTSD is essentially to get

37:26

people to talk about the trauma that happened . But

37:29

in order to talk about it , often times people

37:31

get re traumatized and it's really hard . But

37:34

traditional therapy was you just tell a story over and over

37:36

and over again until it loses its power . And

37:38

they had incredibly high you

37:40

know what's the word precipitation , just

37:43

dropout rates . People would drop out because it was

37:45

so hard . But then , when they

37:47

added MDMA , what happened is people

37:49

started feeling safe chemically and so they

37:51

could get through the story of what

37:53

happened . Because MDMA lowers

37:55

the cerebral blood flow to the amygdala

37:57

, which is your fight or flight response

37:59

center of the brain .

38:02

See , I didn't realize . I didn't realize

38:04

MDMA was kind of regarded

38:06

as a hallucinogenic .

38:08

It's that's debatable . I

38:11

lump it in because if you define

38:13

psychedelics chemically , then

38:16

you only have the family of tryptomines

38:18

, which includes LSD , mushrooms

38:20

and mescaline and nothing else . If

38:22

you define psychedelics experientially

38:25

, like what makes you feel universal sense

38:27

of connection and similar experiences

38:30

, then the psychedelics also includes

38:33

MDMA and ketamine .

38:36

Interesting . Okay , so this

38:39

50k then ? Why did

38:41

you decide that that was the

38:43

time to experiment

38:46

with LSD , rather than just

38:48

doing it and surrounded

38:50

by beanbags and friends and

38:52

marshmallows ?

38:54

I had done LSD

38:57

before . It was just

38:59

it was early days in my experimentation

39:02

but I had done it several

39:04

times and therapeutically I

39:07

did it because at that point I

39:10

had a bit of my career

39:12

underway as like a psychedelic comedian

39:15

and I felt confident

39:17

in my abilities to teach

39:19

about these chemicals and to take them . And

39:22

also I wanted to very

39:25

viscerally bust a few myths around

39:27

drug takers , which is just that

39:29

they're lazy and that

39:32

they don't do anything , because

39:34

most of the time people are like oh , you ran

39:36

a lot , that's impressive . I have

39:38

for my show I've had people

39:41

take an SAT on LSD and

39:44

I've done the presidential fitness

39:47

test on MDMA , ketamine

39:49

and pot and compared results

39:51

with my sober .

39:53

How did they compare ?

39:55

Terribly , however , well

39:57

, no Did you try speed

40:00

. Well , mdma has an amphetamine component

40:03

, but it

40:05

is offset , in my opinion , by the

40:07

amount of love that

40:10

you feel You're having Tyson .

40:12

Thanks , yeah , exactly .

40:14

I think I probably I would have done better on

40:16

Adderall , I'm pretty sure but with

40:19

ketamine , which serves as

40:21

an anesthesia sometimes . I

40:23

actually did do better on

40:25

sit ups and the reason

40:27

why is because in the video I

40:29

took of this you can find it on

40:32

YouTube I said while I'm

40:34

on ketamine , doing sit ups , I was like it hurts

40:36

, but it feels like it's hurting somebody else's body

40:38

.

40:39

That is a classic dissociative

40:41

thing to say , could

40:43

that help with press ups out of interest ?

40:46

What are press ups ?

40:48

Oh , what would they be called in America ? It's

40:52

where you're flat on your front

40:54

and you push up with your two

40:56

arms .

40:57

Oh no , I think that's what it's called in America . I just

40:59

hadn't heard of that Push ups .

41:00

maybe they're called in states , maybe

41:02

.

41:02

But your chest is fully flat on the

41:04

floor .

41:05

Yeah , that's right . And then you

41:07

just put , you push your arms and lock them

41:09

and then back down again .

41:12

Yeah , that's interesting that

41:15

I did push ups while on all those

41:17

drugs and it certainly

41:19

did not help with any of those . You

41:22

know , I know a lot of weight lifters . I'm actually going to be doing

41:24

a panel in New York in mid January about psychedelics

41:27

and fitness at the psychedelic

41:29

assembly , which

41:31

, for any of your listeners who are interested

41:33

in psychedelics , psychedelic assembly

41:35

in New York is like the greatest

41:37

place ever . It is a 24

41:40

seven library work

41:42

, share and integration space . So

41:44

cool . Anyway , psychedelics and

41:46

fitness . So weight

41:48

lifters will use GHB after

41:51

a lift to

41:54

really calm their body down

41:56

, to really like relax , so

41:58

that they will reduce the possibility

42:00

of getting strains

42:03

. This was information

42:05

related to me by a fellow drug communicator

42:07

. I know the Mohawk , who's awesome

42:10

, who works at DanceSafe , who like

42:12

lifts and talks about

42:14

how psychedelics can be used for weightlifting

42:17

. Joe Rogan talks about how psychedelics are used for

42:19

, like , martial arts . So it's

42:21

, there's an interesting world of

42:23

combining psychedelics and physical

42:26

fitness .

42:28

Interesting and I just thinking

42:30

for someone at home who maybe hasn't tried

42:32

LSD how would you describe

42:35

what it's like to take it ?

42:39

Great question . So you get two people

42:41

in a room who've tried LSD and you get three

42:43

different experiences

42:47

. Everybody can have different experiences , but here

42:49

are some classic hallmarks . If

42:54

you have ever had

42:57

a really good experience in

42:59

church or temple where you felt really connected , like to the people

43:02

around you and to the world at large , there's an element

43:05

of that of like meaningfulness

43:12

and connection . That's a really big

43:14

hallmark . There is a sense that is like alcohol . In

43:17

just like your , I don't feel quite myself . I feel a little bit different

43:20

. There's a little bit of

43:22

that . If you have ever for me nicotine , I

43:24

think that's a really important

43:26

thing . Like

43:29

you know , for me , nicotine , like I feel

43:31

like my heart rate slightly increases , I get

43:33

a little bit sweaty in my fingers , like

43:35

when I smoke a cigarette , like there's tiny

43:37

bit of that with a physical sensation

43:39

of it . But

43:42

there are some absolutely

43:45

difficult things to

43:47

relay which are

43:49

kind of the most famous ones , which are the

43:51

visual hallucinations

43:54

, which are mostly like what we call visualizations

43:58

, because you don't usually see like

44:00

an embodied leprechaun in front of you

44:02

. It's more like you just see the walls

44:04

are breathing or colors

44:06

are flowing into each other and

44:09

it is not jarring Like

44:11

it is not . It doesn't freak you out

44:13

, it's actually quite beautiful . You're

44:16

enhancing your perception . Like you

44:18

can hear better , you can see more

44:20

clearly . Things are just

44:22

much more interesting . Everything

44:25

just kind of takes your interest

44:27

, and the most

44:29

, the hardest thing to explain is

44:32

when you look at a tree . Instead

44:34

of saying , oh

44:37

, that's a tree , you look at a

44:39

tree and you say , oh , like green

44:42

, big brown trunk

44:44

, like leaves , that's a tree . It's like

44:46

you don't impose

44:48

onto things which you

44:51

already assume they are

44:53

. You

44:55

kind of take them in as

44:57

they are , a little bit more .

45:00

So then , when you thought

45:03

of like doing a 50k

45:05

, what were you , given how

45:09

that changes your perception of things

45:11

, what were you expecting before you did the first

45:14

50k ?

45:16

The experience would be like oh

45:20

, I also just thought of a very I'm sorry , I thought

45:22

of a very good quote for the last , but I should

45:24

have mentioned for your previous question , Describing

45:27

psychedelics is always hard . There's a great quote

45:29

that is like writing about music

45:32

is like dancing about architecture

45:34

. If that's the case

45:36

, then describing psychedelics

45:38

with words is like wrestling

45:41

about astrophysics . It's hard to

45:43

do . Okay , so your next question

45:45

is

45:47

about the 50k .

45:49

Yeah , so what were you

45:51

expecting the experience to be like

45:53

?

45:55

So I'd run a 50k before . That

45:58

was

46:00

very hilly and

46:02

one of the reasons why everybody loses

46:04

their 50k virginity at Burning man

46:06

is because the elevation gain of

46:09

the 50k at Burning man is approximately

46:11

three inches and

46:14

it is just that little bump

46:16

that tracks your tag

46:18

in your bib Like

46:21

that's literally the elevation gain

46:24

. It is crazy . So

46:26

it's

46:28

great because when you're super tired you don't even

46:30

have to think about where your feet are , like on like a trail

46:32

. They just you know it's the same

46:34

. It's so easy

46:36

. It's also great because of the support

46:38

and so I wasn't worried

46:41

too much about the 50k

46:43

. People worry about the heat , but it's done very early

46:46

in the morning , so you're

46:48

fine . I

46:51

also had done that thing where you know when , like you've

46:53

run longer

46:56

distances , you look back on

46:58

a 50k and you're like that's nothing , and then you actually run

47:00

it and you're like , oh shit , I forgot yeah

47:03

yeah , yeah . That

47:05

happened to me , like a couple weeks

47:08

ago On a Friday

47:10

, I got called to do the New

47:12

York Marathon on a Sunday to guide

47:14

an autistic runner this great program called

47:17

Achilles , where you like guide runners

47:19

and I , you know , I've run all

47:21

these old marathon . So I was like , yeah , sure , no

47:23

problem , Like I'll be there , it'll be fun

47:25

. So show up and to

47:28

guide this runner . And firstly

47:31

, they tell me he's running

47:33

a three hour marathon , which they didn't

47:35

tell me on the phone . I'm like guys , I can't just like

47:38

suddenly be an incredible runner

47:41

. And then you know , and then two

47:43

like I actually run the thing

47:45

, and I was like , oh shit

47:49

, I forgot . Like man , I'm

47:51

gonna , I'm gonna die , and

47:53

I really I ran a good race but

47:56

I I

47:58

was not walking for like the next

48:00

day and the day after that was rough .

48:03

Yeah , we marathon's are hard and 50 K

48:05

is basically a marathon that you then tack on eight

48:07

, eight K . So

48:11

yeah , and yeah , talk us , talk

48:14

us through it . Then how did you decide the dosage and what actually

48:16

happened

48:18

? And there's there's miles .

48:21

Oh God , it was such a great experience . Just

48:23

thinking about it fills me

48:25

with joy . So , at

48:28

about five miles , in the

48:31

sun is setting , I'm feeling good and I've decided

48:34

okay , I am going to go through with it . And

48:36

so I take a tab of acid , and it's one tab 100 micrograms

48:40

, that's your standard dose . And I didn't

48:42

do less because

48:44

I wanted it to feel it and I didn't

48:46

do more because I knew that my

48:48

metabolism and the context would probably enhance the

48:51

experience

48:53

of 100 micrograms . And I put on my

48:55

tongue and I felt like this is like an important moment

48:59

I need to share with somebody . And

49:01

so this guy was running near me and I just like stuck out my

49:05

tongue and I had an acid tab on it

49:07

. And he was like , is that ? Oh my God , how you

49:09

look horrible .

49:12

I'll see you already running when you , when you take the tab .

49:14

Yeah , I took , because I wasn't sure I

49:17

was like I wanted to get a couple of miles in to see

49:19

how I felt psychologically and I

49:21

felt so excited and

49:25

then I felt it kick in approximately

49:28

not too long later , maybe

49:30

five miles , no , yeah

49:33

, maybe like 30

49:35

to 45 minutes later . And

49:37

the way I knew is because I went into the

49:39

porta potty and I was

49:42

like , oh , I am not normal

49:44

, Because when you're running sometimes it's hard

49:46

to tell . Sometimes

49:48

when you're tripping , it's good to have something normal

49:51

to look at so you can tell just

49:53

how like strange your consciousness

49:55

is .

49:56

But the problem at .

49:57

Burning man is . Everything is weird

49:59

. So you're like you

50:01

know , you're like tripping . And you're like , okay

50:03

, am I tripping , or

50:06

is that person really on

50:08

stilts and covered in green

50:10

body glitter ? And then you're like , I

50:13

don't know .

50:14

I think it's kind of normal .

50:18

So , like , truly , at Burning man , like it's

50:20

so crazy , like the night

50:23

I , the night

50:25

I proposed to my now fiance we

50:27

look up in the sky and we see this beautiful

50:29

art installation , this

50:32

just gorgeous giant , like

50:34

, like , like white

50:37

light sphere

50:39

. And then we're like , wait , that's

50:41

the moon . Because

50:43

we've been at Burning man for

50:46

like number of days , we'd already have

50:48

climatized to just

50:51

everything being weird . So when we saw something

50:53

normal , we were like , oh , that's a Burning

50:55

man , anyway

50:58

, so I take , I take it and , yeah

51:01

, it just rocks me , like

51:03

it is , it's hard and it's

51:05

beautiful and it's wonderful . And

51:07

, by the way , the

51:09

next time I run

51:12

the

51:14

Ultramarathon , it's like and

51:16

this is a couple , this is like two months

51:18

ago I'm , you

51:20

know , waiting in the athlete

51:23

village thing and I'm really nervous

51:25

, you know . And I'm like talking to people and I find out , like , because

51:28

I'm nervous , because I'm like , oh

51:30

, I'm going to run again on acid

51:32

, like I hope it's good the second time , and

51:35

I find out like I'm one of like

51:37

10 people running

51:39

this thing on acid . And I talked to these other people and I'm like , why

51:42

are you doing this ? And they're like

51:44

, well , I saw this video of this crazy girl

51:46

online like she ran it on acid

51:48

and I thought that looked fun and I was like what

51:50

that was me . That's crazy and I'm in the

51:54

middle of the race and I'm running it

51:56

and I meet this guy and I tell him , like you know , I'm like

51:59

I I'm so happy so many

52:01

people are learning from this . And he was

52:03

like wait a second , did you stick

52:05

your tongue out at me like

52:07

four years ago when he ran it the first time ? And I was like you're

52:10

that guy and I'm like you're that girl

52:12

and we had this like big reunion

52:14

and now we're like friends on Instagram

52:16

and we like check in on each other and

52:19

like it's so great and yeah

52:22

, and it's funny because , like I want

52:24

to start with this race . Like there's

52:26

like the , you get divided by men and women

52:28

. Like you know , you're number one in men , number one in women

52:30

. You got your age division . I

52:32

want the acid division , because

52:34

I'm pretty sure . I placed

52:37

first in a female

52:39

on acid . I know that I wasn't

52:41

first in male on acid because

52:44

Bob Hearn , who is an amazing

52:46

ultra runner , for he like ran

52:49

, I don't know . I think it was like a four hour , 50

52:51

K like , naked

52:53

, naked and on acid

52:55

. Truly the greatest man in the world .

52:58

And what does it because you

53:00

know , when you go for a marathon , you're

53:02

, you're often thinking about your nutrition

53:05

, you're looking at your splits , your body

53:07

starts to ache and

53:10

you , you then get that pain

53:12

that grows like how . How is

53:14

that experience different ?

53:16

So one , I'm not worried about my splits because

53:19

time is a construct and the universe

53:21

is infinity , so

53:25

splits are relative . So

53:28

I am like

53:31

I am eat . I will say I am eating because

53:33

I know I have to . When

53:35

you take psychedelic you usually do

53:37

not feel a strong need to eat . That's another

53:40

hallmark . But

53:42

I did have a plan , you know , to

53:44

like I forget what it was

53:46

, but to eat like a power bar every like

53:48

five miles or something like that . And

53:52

so that's

53:55

the food question . With the body

53:57

aching , I mean , the thing is like , yeah

53:59

, it is aching and like bodies

54:01

do a pain is

54:03

part of living and

54:06

it's not good . It's

54:10

not something you should like seek out , but it is natural and

54:13

it's also surmountable

54:16

. I think it's just

54:18

kind of like . It's just like how you

54:20

know when people , when you tell people

54:22

, david , like you know , I've run like

54:24

a 50 care or whatever it's like people are

54:26

like how could you do that ? I

54:28

could never do that . And

54:30

you're like , yeah , no , we're the same , but I just

54:32

learned how to overcome , how to

54:34

push through the pain . It's the

54:37

same thing with psychedelics

54:39

, like you know it is you

54:41

just find that courage to

54:44

keep going even though you're doing something

54:46

very unnatural with your body .

54:51

And so . So actually it doesn't really help

54:53

with if someone , for example

54:55

, had never heard a math and before

54:57

and was thinking this might be an easy way to do it

54:59

, that that wouldn't be the case .

55:01

One of this stuff is performance

55:04

enhancing , but that's not

55:06

the goal for me . The

55:08

goal for me was joy , and I

55:11

achieved that . I got my splits were

55:13

great and the joy division I

55:17

truly like I stopped running races

55:19

many years ago , like I was

55:22

super big and to like , oh

55:24

, like , I'm going to take my gels and like you know

55:26

, you know , fucking body gliding

55:28

, like I was really into , just like getting a lower and

55:30

lower PR . And then I got

55:32

into ultras and that went out the window and

55:35

it became a very internal journey about

55:37

pushing my boundaries . Like where

55:39

haven't I run before ? How long could I go

55:41

? What could I do as a pacer

55:43

? I'm obsessed with pacing . My friend , julie

55:46

K Fetz now , who's like this just

55:48

beyond insane ultra marathon

55:50

, or she's so inspiring ran

55:53

Spartaclan this year and last year just

55:55

amazing , look her up anyway . So

55:58

I think of different . I have different goals

56:00

than just time . I think lowering your time

56:02

is gets really reducted

56:04

, as for a while , literally , and

56:07

so for anybody listening who's like interested

56:09

in like improving their times , that's truly

56:11

it's not for a short time , it's

56:13

for a good time . That's the branding

56:16

for psychedelics and running . I

56:19

am also , by the way . Oh

56:22

, but well , I will say they can be useful

56:24

for other things around performance like

56:26

, for example , some people use

56:28

cannabis if they don't eat

56:31

very well between workouts , like

56:33

it helps them crave protein

56:35

. Some people use GHP to calm their bodies

56:37

down . Some people use psychedelics to

56:39

get into the warrior mind space , not

56:41

when they're running , but when they're not running , so

56:43

they can be performance enhancing outside

56:46

of while you're performing

56:48

, but while you're performing . That's

56:50

a bizarre , weird thing that weirdos

56:53

like me do .

56:54

And how many times in that in the 50k

56:57

would you say you had moments of joy , or is

56:59

it a near constant

57:01

feeling of raised

57:04

happiness ?

57:06

Well , like

57:09

in the video , there's a moment where I break

57:11

down crying and

57:15

it's kind of bittersweet

57:17

because I gave this

57:19

like long soliloquy

57:22

about how like I'm crying

57:24

you know not because I'm in pain

57:26

, though that's there but I'm crying

57:28

because , like , I feel grateful

57:30

to my parents and it's

57:32

great because the entire time I had my thumb

57:35

over the microphone and

57:37

so none of it was caught . I

57:39

still incorporate a clip of it

57:41

. You know , there are moments

57:44

of I wouldn't say there's any moments where I was down

57:46

. There were moments where you know it was

57:48

hard but

57:50

they were there , was I was connected

57:53

to a higher sense of meaning in

57:55

that race that that really

57:57

drove me and kind of got

57:59

like snapped , like this most recent one kind

58:01

of snapped me back into running . Like I kind

58:03

of took a long time off because

58:05

I had one really bad sober

58:07

100k in New York and

58:10

now , you know , after this reason

58:13

, when a birdie man , I think I'm gonna get back into

58:15

ultra running again because

58:17

it just you tap into

58:19

the higher purpose of

58:21

running , like it's sort of like

58:23

the . It kind of reminds me of the whirling

58:25

dervishes in Turkey where

58:28

it's like these , like you

58:30

know , Muslim priests would like

58:32

her and moms , or just like spiritual

58:34

people would like take a bunch of

58:36

a bunch of caffeine coffee

58:39

and spin around in circles , dizzy themselves

58:41

thinking about God , and that would get

58:43

them to a higher plane . That , to

58:45

me , is the same thing I'm

58:47

tapping into when I take LSD

58:50

and run a 50 day .

58:53

I also started .

58:55

I know I got so many that I just like I've so many

58:57

thoughts about this , I I really

59:00

want to do a thing where I

59:02

here's what I would

59:04

do if I had lots of time and a good partner in this

59:06

. I would love to do

59:08

a running camp or experience

59:11

in Mexico with

59:13

the taro mara . So you

59:15

know the taro mara Most

59:17

people do , if you don't look them up there Insanely

59:20

cool running community in Mexico

59:22

. I would love

59:24

, because they are right next door to

59:26

an amazing culture of current arrows

59:29

mushroom healers in Mexico . I

59:35

would love . I probably can't do it because , like I'm white and it would be bad , but I

59:37

would love for , like a local Mexican , to

59:39

create an experience that could somehow

59:42

combine these traditions so

59:44

that you can really tap into that divine

59:46

. You know running warrior

59:48

, so that you're either

59:51

doing mushrooms and you

59:53

know thinking about running and then running the next day

59:55

, or running and then taking

59:57

mushrooms , or doing both at the same time . But

59:59

I think that could make like a very powerful experience

1:00:02

because you would also tap into

1:00:05

deep traditions that

1:00:07

have been using mushrooms for a really long time

1:00:09

, as well as deep traditions of running

1:00:11

for a very long time . So I think

1:00:13

there's something there and if anyone listening

1:00:15

to this is Mexican and

1:00:18

is really interested in this , like

1:00:20

I would love to talk and set

1:00:23

that up somehow .

1:00:25

Sam , I'm thinking of you if you're

1:00:27

linked to the taro mara , I

1:00:31

don't think your company would be allowed on paper

1:00:33

, but yeah

1:00:36

, we can chat afterwards . And also Chris

1:00:38

, chris McDougal , I'm sure he'd link

1:00:40

you up with people . He finds

1:00:42

that quite fun . And so

1:00:44

then do you think then this is something you'd

1:00:46

recommend for others to do , and are you

1:00:48

going to be doing plenty more in the future ?

1:00:53

No , I wouldn't recommend

1:00:55

it . I would just say you

1:00:57

know I did and I had this great experience , but

1:00:59

it's probably not for most

1:01:01

people and

1:01:04

I hope it entertains you if you watch the video

1:01:07

and educates you a little

1:01:09

bit bust , maybe some few stereotypes

1:01:12

, but yeah , I would necessarily

1:01:15

recommend it . What

1:01:17

was the second part of your question ?

1:01:19

Oh , just on that , on the video itself , because

1:01:21

the it

1:01:25

transpires once I started researching you , that you

1:01:27

were was equally known for that

1:01:29

more than anything else , because of that

1:01:31

being the big trigger behind the story . Has

1:01:34

that been something that has almost

1:01:38

becoming a meme in some ways ? Is

1:01:41

that has it damaged

1:01:43

you ? Or is it something that , given that

1:01:45

you've gone to Harvard , you're very

1:01:47

successful in lots of different fields ? Is

1:01:49

it ? Is it something that in some

1:01:51

ways limits people's how

1:01:54

much they realize you're capable of or how much you've

1:01:56

achieved ?

1:01:58

Yeah , I mean , this is why I'm my own boss

1:02:00

. I haven't fired myself yet for talking

1:02:03

about drug use . I have lost

1:02:05

one client who I'm

1:02:07

very appreciative . Told me why and that it was

1:02:09

because they were uncomfortable drug use , which I

1:02:12

really do not fault people . I

1:02:15

totally understand that . You know we've been told

1:02:18

a lot of scary things for decades

1:02:20

about this stuff and even if you don't

1:02:22

believe it like we still live in that world . So

1:02:25

I , you know I don't fault people for

1:02:27

being kind of flabbergasted

1:02:29

at this video . It was intentionally

1:02:31

flamboyant , for sure . But

1:02:35

yeah , I mean , I think like it's

1:02:37

, it's probably helps

1:02:39

more than hurt and I don't see the way it's hurt

1:02:42

me because you know I

1:02:44

posted it on Reddit and somehow

1:02:46

very few I don't think I

1:02:48

got any like sexist

1:02:51

or mean comments , which

1:02:53

is like maybe a first for Reddit

1:02:55

. Also , diplo

1:02:57

apparently just ran a marathon on

1:02:59

acid and so I heard that like renewed

1:03:02

interest in the topic , which is

1:03:05

great , but it's like it's not 50k

1:03:07

but whatever .

1:03:13

Amazing and well and

1:03:15

for your future then . Do you see yourself doing longer

1:03:19

races with this or experimenting

1:03:21

in other ways , or do you think you'll just play

1:03:24

things by ear ?

1:03:25

That's a good question . I really want to know what

1:03:27

I'm going to do next . I thought about it like

1:03:29

I definitely I think I want to do a 100 mile

1:03:31

race at some point in my life . I don't necessarily

1:03:33

think I'm going to be on drugs for it . I

1:03:37

definitely want to experiment with the bounds of

1:03:39

psychedelics . I like

1:03:41

to do bizarre things on psychedelics

1:03:43

that you can't frankly

1:03:45

get a grant to

1:03:47

study academically or medically

1:03:49

and you know I can be my own guinea pig . So

1:03:52

I'm really interested in trying

1:03:55

different things . What ? would

1:03:57

be examples of that be , for example Intelligence

1:04:02

tests were one , but I could definitely see

1:04:04

people being able to study that I

1:04:07

wouldn't want to do so . I know people colloquially

1:04:10

who've , like , taken certain

1:04:12

drugs and gone skydiving , and I'm not particularly

1:04:15

interested in that either

1:04:17

. I think that's a sort of like

1:04:19

a bizarre experience because I feel like going skydiving

1:04:22

that's truly just like you

1:04:25

know . I mean , you're enhancing a fear . You

1:04:28

know situation because you're incapacitated

1:04:30

, relatively speaking , I

1:04:32

don't know if I would want to do that route

1:04:35

. I've done all different kinds of tests , like I did

1:04:39

a show on opioids where I put my hand in

1:04:41

ice water , which is a classic analgesic

1:04:43

or pain test , to see how long

1:04:45

I could last on

1:04:48

opioids versus sober , and it's

1:04:50

incredible how effective

1:04:52

opioids are at combatting

1:04:55

pain for much

1:04:57

of the population , including I

1:05:00

am still trying to think

1:05:02

about my next stunt , I guess . So if any of your listeners

1:05:05

have ideas , please DM me . I

1:05:07

am at your disposal . I

1:05:10

truly yeah , I haven't . I've

1:05:14

tried surfing while

1:05:16

on LSD and I think , like

1:05:18

I'm not at the one

1:05:21

. That's extremely dangerous . I

1:05:23

don't recommend it and I could

1:05:25

sense that while I was out there . So I I

1:05:28

do want it to be safe . To be honest , like

1:05:30

I you know skydiving

1:05:33

is safe like that . You know the statistics

1:05:35

are not good . Surfing actually is much more

1:05:37

dangerous . So yeah

1:05:40

, I'm really not sure Anybody

1:05:43

listening , you know ? Please write

1:05:45

me with some ideas about what Sarah should do next

1:05:47

.

1:05:48

Well , if people want to do that , what's the best handles

1:05:50

for people to find you ?

1:05:53

I love all of them . Sarah Rose , siskind

1:05:56

, s-i-s-k-i-n-d . On

1:05:58

Twitter , on Instagram

1:06:00

those are kind of my main

1:06:03

haunts these days , but

1:06:06

LinkedIn , I

1:06:08

don't know where every where I've addicted

1:06:11

to social media , so either one of those

1:06:13

you found me on Instagram

1:06:15

.

1:06:17

I'm really I'm quite a powerful stalker

1:06:19

, so , but thanks so

1:06:21

much for coming on the podcast . It's been really

1:06:23

interesting and if there's

1:06:25

anything we can do to help you if you

1:06:27

need bodies for experiments or all

1:06:29

the like I'm sure we can put it out to our audience

1:06:32

and find someone willing .

1:06:33

So thank you so much . Oh yeah , next time

1:06:35

, next time I'm in England , watch out , because I'm going to be bringing

1:06:38

mushrooms and suggesting we go for a run .

1:06:40

Mate , I'm game , I've . I mean , you

1:06:43

wouldn't have , you wouldn't need to bring any with you , let's just

1:06:45

put that way . But yeah , when you

1:06:47

ever passing through London , we've got spare bedroom

1:06:50

and there are experiences

1:06:52

to be had , that's for sure .

1:06:55

Thank you , I may take you up on that , so beware

1:06:57

.

1:07:07

I thought this was a story we

1:07:09

had to . We had to speak to her just to find

1:07:11

out what her experience is like . I've not actually watched

1:07:13

the video , yeah . Yeah , I've

1:07:15

just read up about her , so I'm going to go and do

1:07:17

that now . But also

1:07:19

I just thought it's great

1:07:22

the fact that the

1:07:25

fact that she she clearly is so knowledge

1:07:27

about the subject as well . So I thought

1:07:30

this would be a good interview to

1:07:32

really open people's

1:07:34

eyes up to different viewpoints and actually

1:07:36

to to understand things better . So , but

1:07:39

if you've got any suggestions of future guests

1:07:41

, then message

1:07:44

me . David at bad boy running calm , try

1:07:46

to think of other episodes that would be good to listen

1:07:48

to . Kind of linked to this , we did speak

1:07:50

to Christopher McDougal about the

1:07:52

tower bar and

1:07:55

he wrote board to run Sam

1:07:58

from ultra X he was . Also

1:08:00

he has put on

1:08:02

a an

1:08:04

ultra race through Copper Canyon where he was

1:08:06

talking about , I think , jason slab

1:08:08

taking on one of the local tarot

1:08:11

minor runners and just how incredibly

1:08:13

good he was . We've not really done

1:08:15

many other episodes about drugs in

1:08:17

running other than , I

1:08:20

guess , performance enhancing drugs , where

1:08:22

we spoke to the steppin offs who are

1:08:24

Russian whistleblowers . We spoke

1:08:26

to Rob cola , the ex

1:08:28

deputy director of wider , about how the system is . So

1:08:32

plenty of episodes there for you to listen to , but , as

1:08:34

I say , there's any future guests you'd like me to

1:08:36

reach out to and get on the podcast . Message

1:08:39

David at bad boy , run calm , or

1:08:41

on Instagram . Just message the

1:08:43

page and we will

1:08:45

see you next time . That's for listening . Bye

1:08:48

, bye , bye , bye , bye , bye , bye , bye

1:08:50

, bye , bye . Fuck

1:09:13

you , buddy .