0:00

Paul: Hey David, I've got my startup idea. Should I quit my job?

0:03

Yeah. , Thank you so much.

0:07

.That's really helpful actually. That's really, I really, I know you're really busy, so I really

0:11

appreciate you taking the time. Welcome to Bad

0:16

David: Startup advice. Paul: The structure of each episode is that the beginning we're gonna

0:20

make it sound like we know everything, and we're gonna give you the worst

0:22

possible advice we can think of. And then we're gonna transition and we're gonna just give the

0:26

regular version of advice. Today's episode is focused on whether you should quit your

0:32

job , so onto the bad advice.

0:38

So David: Paul . Here I am at Google working from 11 to 3:00 PM every day,

0:42

and it's but I just have this itch Paul: look, so what I always recommend, is, you should have quit yesterday.

0:49

The thing about a startup is in order to quit, you don't need an idea.

0:53

You don't need a co-founder. You don't need money.

0:56

, you don't even need a plan. You David: just need Paul: to quit But you have to do more than that too, right?

0:59

Because you are committing, you need to create the space in your life

1:02

for brilliance, you gotta cut out your girlfriend or your boyfriend.

1:05

Yeah. You can't, you don't have time for that.

1:08

And look, they'll get it. You just need to explain like, you don't have an idea yet, but you will soon.

1:12

And they're just taking up too much of, and

1:14

David: they'll, there will come a point in your journey where they

1:18

can come back into your life. Yeah. Like you've iPod.

1:21

You can explain that to them. Yeah. They'll get it. Paul: Just tell 'em to wait I don't know, 18 months.

1:24

18 months. And then you can get back to together.

1:28

It's pretty normal. So you gotta cut off your partner obviously.

1:34

You also gotta cut off your family. Family.

1:36

Family doesn't help in these types of situations.

1:39

You're gonna be fine if you got a kid. It's not too late to put them in to drop 'em off.

1:47

. Yeah. So I, the thing is it takes commitment So let's talk about what you're clearing out space for.

1:53

In, in one word, it's brilliance.

1:55

So what I usually do, so you wake up in the morning, you put on your black turtleneck, right?

2:00

You do your gratitude journal, you meditate for six hours, right?

2:05

And then you just sit there and you think,

2:09

so you're just ideating for, at least three months.

2:13

And at this point I, I try not to leave the house.

2:15

And I just sit right on the toilet. And that way if I do have happen to have excrement that isn't brilliance

2:22

and startup ideas, then it just, I, it's just super efficient.

2:25

I don't, there no, there's no interruption of your flow. I like to actually, write it to the press release that I will now be

2:30

starting a billion dollar business and that I cannot be reached, that all

2:35

of my prior friends are just hangers on my family, my partner, all that.

2:40

And I try to just go ahead and announce to everyone just so

2:43

that it's clear what's happening. I, I would hate for it to turn into a situation

2:46

where, , they try to reach out to David: me. Yeah. And what channel do you prefer?

2:49

So do you use LinkedIn Paul: or do you use Twitter for that?

2:52

So all of the above YouTube and Twitter and TikTok and Instagram and but I'll

2:57

also just travel around the country making speeches because it's old

3:00

school, but I think there is a magic to handing out your business cards.

3:04

So my business cards will just say, Paul, a hundred x founder.

3:07

A hundred x founder. Yeah. Yeah. Idea inbound.

3:10

Should we transition? Yeah.

3:12

Okay. . Cool. Let's talk earnestly.

3:15

. So here's the earnest version of should you quit your job.

3:19

There's a lot of doubt and self-confidence quandary you're

3:23

early stage, it's really hard. And so people use quitting as a way to bolster their own confidence, right?

3:29

It's a way to show that they are committed, right?

3:32

See, they've quit their job. And it's unfortunate because it doesn't, quitting doesn't really

3:36

help you like with some of the really big, hairy difficult things.

3:40

In fact, it makes them a lot harder because now you have a clock, right?

3:44

Yeah. Maybe we can share our story of how we started Keeper.

3:49

. But let me share, my story before you.

3:51

Okay. I was 25, . I

3:55

was at this company called Stride I, had worked there for two and a half years.

3:59

And so I think I did the thing that we devoted all that bad advice to,

4:04

which is I quit without an idea. I quit without a co-founder, and I announced to all of my coworkers and

4:10

all of my friends that I was starting, yeah, Paul: I actually, I did make a speech to the company . You did?

4:15

I did, yeah. On my departure, I, in my speech, I said, okay, I'm now going to be a founder.

4:21

And I Oh, you gave a speech or you wrote an email?

4:25

No I gave a speech. It was a give a speech.

4:29

Yeah. They gave me the microphone and I used that time in the spotlight.

4:33

To announce to everyone that I was gonna be, wait, we're no longer

4:35

the satire part of this podcast? No, this is what I actually did.

4:38

I see. Yeah. And, let me tell you, David, it felt so good to quit . I felt that day

4:45

or maybe half of that day leading up to the decision to quit felt great.

4:50

Yeah. And then it just went downhill. , so here's what I, here's what I did.

4:53

I started interviewing for jobs right away cuz I was just scared.

4:58

, I was scared and rightfully so because I didn't have anything.

5:02

So right away I was already distracted. I just felt the pressure every week I've got, like I, I talk to

5:06

my parents and every week they were saying, oh, how's it going?

5:09

Is this turning into something? And every week I had nothing.

5:11

David: So how much time did you actually spend, I don't know, coming up with

5:14

Paul: ideas? Yeah. So I probably spent a month and a half.

5:18

Don't get me wrong I had an idea, it just wasn't thought out.

5:21

I hadn't, I had a Google document that was a page and a half long that

5:23

described how I was going to build up some product analytics thing.

5:27

And it's very difficult on that stage to like you, you start to

5:32

meld your own ego with the idea. And so I felt very sensitive.

5:35

When people ask me for details, I felt like I didn't really want to, I just

5:39

didn't have everything figured out. So I didn't really wanna explain it.

5:42

So I had this Google doc, but it was a little abstract.

5:44

Yeah. So I was doing that. I even then took a vacation.

5:47

So I told myself that I should take a week long vacation, cuz

5:49

I've been working hard for so long. I was working super hard up until that point, and it was

5:54

the worst vacation of my life. I went to Mexico City and I sat inside of a hotel room for eight days and then the

6:00

other thing I did is I did hustle, right? I did want to start a company, but I realized that I am

6:05

someone who needs a co-founder. I realized that I just, I don't know, I don't have the mental and emotional

6:09

fortitude to go off and do this on my own. So I, talk to every one of my friends and acquaintances, and I tried to get

6:17

them to quit their jobs . And as it turns out, when it actually comes to

6:23

getting someone else to uproot their life for you, it's very difficult.

6:27

And it's one thing to be talking about it and say one day, and it's

6:30

another thing to say, do it right now. . Especially when they don't have any investment in it, right?

6:36

Sure. People, other people in your life might wanna be founders, but they don't

6:39

wanna work on your shitty idea, right?

6:41

So I was caught in between this rock and a hard place where, , I

6:44

needed to sound confident. Like I knew what we were doing.

6:47

And so I wanted to pitch my idea. And then everyone I was pitching the idea to was like, oh, cool, I

6:51

don't really wanna work on that. , let alone quit my job for that.

6:54

It's David: also the timing thing. You can't get someone to quit like at that exact moment,

6:58

Paul: generally. Yeah. So that was my personal story there.

7:00

I ended up getting another job and you ended up getting to work

7:04

on the thing you wanted to work on, which was the amplitude.

7:07

Yeah. That actually, that, that is funny how that worked. Yeah. I realized that I had this passion for product analytics and then I went to

7:13

work for a product analytics company. And, at that point, I got a little smarter , right?

7:20

So I had made a huge fool of myself to everyone I knew, and I felt terrible.

7:24

I I had been utterly humiliated. , but I feel like I did learn something and I learned that I will not quit

7:29

my next job, until I actually have some semblance of a plan.

7:34

Yeah. And so I did, I went into Amplitude with a, commitment to working on the

7:40

startup and just doing nine to five. So it was the first time ever that I had just I had a job and I did my job.

7:46

I didn't go overboard. I didn't like, try to get the fastest possible promotion ever.

7:50

I just did my job. You felt like you went overboard,

7:53

David: or you went over the top Paul: at the other two? Yeah. So I think coming outta stride, I quit only when I was I was so exhausted.

7:59

I was like putting my weekends and my nights since this company,

8:01

this startup or my job rather. And so when I quit, it was just like a finally some silence and relief and

8:07

I was telling myself that the reason that I had to quit was cuz I couldn't

8:10

possibly scale back my work , at Stride.

8:12

And I actually think that's a common fallacy. I've heard other people say that too.

8:16

It's oh, this job I have is taking too much bandwidth.

8:19

Emotional and mental bandwidth. And the reality is no, I could have scaled back my hours at Stride

8:23

and I could have made it work. . But I just, I felt easier to just So you quit more out of

8:28

frustration, burnout almost. Oh, for sure.

8:30

Yeah. I quit entirely out of ego and frustration.

8:33

Yeah. No, that makes David: sense. Paul: So then continuing on the chronology here.

8:37

So I was at Amplitude for exactly one year.

8:40

Enough to get stock options.

8:42

Nice. And during that time, David reached out independently.

8:47

Oh yeah. . You remember what happened exactly.

8:53

David: I like reached out to just what was the deal. Paul: You, I think you said you wanted to potentially wanted to start a company.

8:59

Oh, I think you were in the same kind of like ambiguous place that I had.

9:05

but at least now we had a little bit of headway.

9:07

We both knew that we were maybe interested in this by the way you told me that you

9:11

were potentially interested in serving a company or going to grad school.

9:14

. I see. Or getting a new job. It was one of those three, right?

9:17

Oh, I see. Yeah. Okay. That sounds about right. And it was for me too.

9:20

I like the thing is no one like, yeah, I don't know very many people who are just

9:24

like, this is the only path for me ever.

9:26

Especially these, if you're a whatever ambitious founder type,

9:29

you're gonna have optionality. But we had this, we had the very seedling of commitment.

9:34

Yeah. David: I had finally reached unlike Paul, I had only been working at

9:37

one job since college, and I was finally getting rather tired of it.

9:42

So I, I was definitely itching to, to do something different.

9:44

Paul: So we were both running away from something, actually that is true.

9:48

. It's of undeniable. It's not like we were running towards taxes.

9:51

This is true. This is true. It wasn't like David: we had a dream.

9:55

Yeah. Paul: and candidly, I think a lot of, there's this stigma associated

9:58

with Oh, you want to be a founder? Just cuz it's not, cuz you love the mission of your company, it's

10:02

because you just want to be a founder. Yeah. And I think the answer is, yep, , that's most people.

10:08

It's definitely gotten David: more, I think now that the that's true.

10:11

Yeah. It's partially because being a founder is now pretty sexy.

10:14

Like it is an NBA alternative I think for some people.

10:17

Paul: Yeah. But so I think if you fall into that camp and be honest with yourself, right?

10:20

If the actual reason you wanna start a company is because of like ego stuff and

10:24

because you hit your job, that's fine.

10:26

, just take it slowly, don't do what I did basically at Stride.

10:30

So David, what happened next? After we got into, got in touch, this was about a year before

10:35

we actually started Keeper. Yeah. What happened next?

10:37

We started just David: working on random stuff.

10:40

I don't know if you remember this, but for a very short period of time.

10:43

. We were working on my like social media trading app.

10:47

I do Paul: remember. Yeah. David: I think more than like the fact that was an actual business or something

10:51

that we were, like, it was a test drive of like our working relationship.

10:54

We we actually made some design mocks together. We talked to some folks.

10:56

So by the time we worked on the next thing, we had

10:59

actually already been in touch Paul: like for a couple months I think.

11:03

Yeah. Yeah. And okay. Just for context, David and I actually are friends since high school.

11:08

Like we were classmates in high school and we were friends

11:10

there, so we had a backstory. but that wasn't a professional backstory.

11:16

It's not like we had ever, maybe we had worked on some projects together, I

11:19

don't even think we had in high school. Yeah. To be honest.

11:21

So in some ways like it's almost worthless like

11:25

being friends with your founder, it's fine, but it's not exactly like the thing

11:29

that's going to define your success. Yeah. I think I, it, it helped me respect your, like I knew David was super smart.

11:35

I knew like that Sure, that helps.

11:37

But it wasn't that different than I think if we were just coworkers.

11:39

Yeah. So let's talk about that phenomenon that happened with us, where we

11:42

worked through four different ideas together, all on the side.

11:47

I think that at the very beginning of the journey, all you have is ego.

11:51

And it is gonna power you for a little ways, and you,

11:54

it's actually of useful fuel. But what those, the reason why we had to iterate so many times to get to keeper

12:00

was because I do think that part of that ego spills into the way you pick ideas.

12:05

And there was an element of this is my idea.

12:07

. Yeah. This one's, so David obviously has a background in trading.

12:10

Yeah. And I've had a background in consumer software.

12:13

So I think we went back and forth.

12:16

It was like now David's idea. Get to go. And now, and yeah.

12:18

Yeah. I think we hadn't decided, had we decided who was gonna be the CEO

12:22

and who was like, no, we hadn't re David: we were just building stuff, which frankly was actually

12:26

of my goal at that stage too. Yeah. The whole like, oh, is it gonna be grad school?

12:30

Is it gonna be a new job? Is it gonna be. being a founder, I was okay, I'm gonna learn how to code like everyone else.

12:35

Oh yeah. That was Paul: My deal actually. You were learning how to code. Yeah.

12:37

But I do think that over the course of those four different startups, we gained

12:42

humility, and we gained a bit of humility nothing's easy, there's no free lunch.

12:46

I think over time you just, okay, this didn't work, this

12:48

didn't work, this didn't work. And then by the fourth time, you're like willing to do anything.

12:52

Yeah. Which is actually the perfect place to be if you're gonna start a company.

12:55

Cuz usually the things that are exciting and fun are about terrible ideas.

12:59

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You start, so for us, we started off just picking random stuff, we

13:03

were like we don't know anything about this, so that's perfect.

13:05

So let's go with that idea. Yeah. And Yeah.

13:07

And slowly got the ego kind of pounded out of us.

13:10

Yeah. Over time let's talk about our schedule.

13:13

How did we actually do it? We at the

13:16

David: beginning we actually just had a call basically once a week,

13:19

Paul: At the very beginning. Yeah. Maybe for the three months.

13:21

Yeah. David: And we would just do most of the stuff async. It would just be like, we had a meeting, we'd be like, all right,

13:25

so this is the current idea.

13:27

Here's the list of things that we need to do next. Yeah.

13:30

And we would just do them and then check in over, Facebook messenger or whatever.

13:34

Paul: and there was a process here and I think actually maintaining

13:37

a process is really important. what we needed to do was we needed to de-risk and it was half of it was

13:42

de-risking, half of it was like waiting until we were tired of it basically.

13:46

But over time we would do these check-ins every week and, one person's job was to

13:50

build like an mvp and the other person's job was to like, or maybe share a job,

13:54

was to find people on Craigslist and show it to them and get their feedback.

13:58

And then after, after four weeks, you're like, okay, this is clearly not working.

14:01

Yeah. No one gives a shit about this idea. Yeah. And David: you're, yeah.

14:04

Paul: Cool. So the first three months were less committed and then I think there

14:09

was this like ratcheting it up. It's asking someone to be your girlfriend, , where.

14:14

. David and I were both, we had our optionality.

14:16

David, I think was, you were applying to grad school, right?

14:19

? David: Yeah, I I was like taking Paul: G e g E. Yeah. And I was just interviewing with different companies.

14:24

At one point you got a job. Yeah, I got an offer at one point.

14:27

Yeah. And so I think we had this moment where we said, okay, let's take

14:30

this relationship to the next level. And we did have serious commitments.

14:35

We worked, I worked, I left work at five and I went to

14:39

this cafe called Workshop Cafe. It's basically a co-working space, so it's close, right?

14:43

It's, yeah, it's bankrupt, but, and I would go there and I would work

14:46

till 9:00 PM every day, five to nine.

14:49

And on one day on the weekend. Yeah. Pretty much all day.

14:52

And that's, and so we we weren't on a call the whole time, but

14:54

we were working the whole time. Yeah. During those hours.

14:57

And it's serious commitment. And I was only able to do it because I was able to set my, my job on the back burner.

15:03

, but that it was like six months of that, right?

15:06

Yeah, that's right. David: Yeah. I was checked out for a long time for work.

15:08

Funny enough, I was continuing to do well at work,

15:11

Paul: supposedly Actually, that's really funny for me too.

15:13

I got promoted. Yeah. And I got like the Ampl Award or some stuff.

15:17

Wait, seriously? Yeah. No, I was like a model employee for some reason.

15:20

I think it was because I cared less. I got promoted too.

15:24

, David: do you remember this? That's how I became head of like analytics and execution.

15:27

I like . Paul: This might be a life hack. Yeah. It turns out I cared so much about my job before that, that I just was worse at it.

15:33

Yeah. But yeah, it's funny that happened. Some of my best like career highlights happened during that checkout.

15:39

No, me too. David: That's actually what's insane.

15:41

Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so we were, we had six months of real diligence and you're

15:47

holding each other accountable and, and I was dating my.

15:51

El Paa, my wife at that time, and I did have that conversation with her about

15:56

listen, I'm gonna do this every day and we're gonna see each other on Sundays.

15:59

, and that's what we did. So let's talk about the final.

16:03

So let's talk about keeper, how that actually started.

16:05

So we had gone through three ideas and I think we were pretty

16:08

frustrated at that point, right? We were like, how did you remember how you felt at that point?

16:13

Yeah, I was David: Yeah, it was basically, this was right after we had done the H one

16:17

B and we had kind had called it off. Yeah. And we kinda had nothing.

16:20

We had no path for it wasn't like we had this long stack of like, all

16:23

right, we're definitely gonna try Yeah. X, y, and Z.

16:25

We were like, just like, all right, , Paul: I think that we were at the perfect state of willing to do

16:29

the thing that is obviously what we should have done, the thing that

16:32

we actually had some expertise in. But from the beginning I was like so basically, okay, the

16:36

context here is Keeper is a tax app for freelancers, right?

16:40

And I happened to have expertise in that because I worked at Stride.

16:44

I had basically built a sim, a product for a similar audience at that company.

16:49

And from the beginning I was like, oh, I don't want to do that.

16:51

That's, that's boring, that's hard. But then over time, like by the time we were at our fourth idea, I was like,

16:56

okay, you know what I like, maybe we do something that's not that sexy.

17:00

Maybe we do the thing that like we actually kind know something about.

17:03

So we came up with this idea to, automate expense tracking.

17:08

That was basically the concept is, if you're a freelancer in the US you

17:12

have to track, business expenses. And that process is laborious.

17:16

And we thought, okay let's try to solve that problem.

17:19

And we actually came outta the gate with an idea.

17:22

We didn't really start with like blank slate let's go talk to users.

17:26

Because I had already, David: You, we, very early on you had the concept of let's just text them.

17:30

Yeah. Every day. Yeah. I Paul: think I was inspired by digit.

17:33

remember that. Yeah. The like savings, automatic savings that company s hub.

17:37

I think they are around, they text you David: every day with a different greeting from the like 400 different languages.

17:41

Bonjour, Paul: you say 4 cents day Yeah, exactly.

17:44

So that was the inspiration. And then it was like applied to the space that we, uniquely

17:48

had knew something about. And I, the other brilliant

17:52

David: part of the texting thing was that it actually was

17:55

somewhat easy to build the mvp. Yeah. Yeah.

17:57

Building an app would've been much more difficult.

18:00

Paul: Yeah, for us, and I guess time, here's some, advice is

18:04

if your MVP requires building an app, don't try, don't do it.

18:07

Try to try to find some creative way because it's just so much work to, so it

18:11

takes so long to actually build something.

18:13

So yeah, try to find a way to not do that.

18:16

In our case, the idea for the product was, you connect your bank account

18:20

using plaid, and then then our magical software will automatically identify

18:25

tax write offs among your expenses. And the interface would be text message.

18:29

So you wouldn't even have to like, do anything, you'd just

18:31

reply yes or no to a text. And the beauty of that idea is that all of the hard stuff we

18:37

could just do manually, right?

18:40

So we, all we built was a, it was a website with a button that connected

18:45

to plaid and then David and I would just look at your expenses every day

18:50

and text you in the beginning it was just, we created a Google Voice number.

18:54

I, in fact, I'm sure we created a Google Voice number.

18:56

Okay. Yeah. And if you just, every day we would just text you.

18:59

And I remember it was really I think all we were trying to de-risk at that

19:02

point really was would anyone reply?

19:05

Would anyone reply? Yeah. And second of all, is it even possible to look at someone's purchase transaction

19:11

history and decide that something was a tax deductible business expense?

19:14

Is that even like something you can do?

19:16

Where do we get these users? David, Craigslist.

19:19

Oh, that's right. Yeah. So we, okay. Yeah. So we ran should we even be saying this?

19:22

We ran these fake ads. Oh yeah. We figured out, we hacked Craigslist.

19:26

We posted in the jobs section of Craigslist.

19:30

So basically someone who's looking for a gig and instead

19:33

of a gig, your tax software.

19:35

It was tax software. We said, Hey, we will pay you 20 bucks or something to connect your bank account

19:41

to our like super sketchy website.

19:43

And it's amazing what people will do, honestly. So we just, we would hop on a quick call.

19:47

We would confirm that we're like real people and smile and wave.

19:50

And I guess that conveyed enough trust for people to link their bank accounts to us.

19:53

Yeah. David: We had some, like those first 12 users were real people.

19:56

That's Paul: what They were real people. Yeah. And it was nice that it wasn't friends and family, cuz I think the hard thing with

20:02

friends and family is users is they're not really gonna be honest with you.

20:05

Yeah. So yeah, these were just random people we found on Craigslist

20:08

so we had our 12 users and that was it.

20:11

We also had to spend like David: at least 30, 40 minutes a day texting them

20:16

, Paul: right? Yeah. And that 30, 40 minutes a day turned into three, four hours towards Yeah.

20:20

Until we actually automated things. Yeah. Yeah. So we would do that every day and then and that's what we applied to YC with, right?

20:25

Yeah. It was just, we have 12 users and the retention is 95% or whatever,

20:31

David: 11 outta 12. I don't even think, I don't think we had to give retention the first

20:33

Paul: It was bullshit point. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess we, I don't know.

20:36

I think YC probably, that's probably what they're sniffing for

20:38

is did you actually try it ? Yeah.

20:41

And we passed that sniff test. I think we had good,

20:43

David: Yeah, so we applied the YC and we got the interview and I think.

20:47

if I had to guess. I think we had good foundry chemistry.

20:50

Yeah. They recognize that we had known each other for a while. Yeah.

20:52

We did actually build an M v MVP and could talk credibly

20:55

about a couple of early users.

20:57

It wasn't all made up. Paul: But we basically, this whole time during applying to YC for six months,

21:03

where we worked from five to nine every day this whole time we were employed.

21:06

Yeah. And I think we had started to make plans for did for quitting.

21:10

You had your end of year bonus. Yeah, that's right.

21:14

So David did, we had to wait for David to get paid.

21:17

But I think I had it was one of those commitment things I had said, I will quit.

21:20

Yeah. No matter what. Yeah. And thankfully we, we got into YC and we got some funding but yeah, it was a long

21:26

time before we actually quit our job. It was probably like a whole, it was close to a year.

21:30

A year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it probably would've been longer if we hadn't, if we hadn't gotten to yc,

21:37

we would've dragged out yeah, for sure. Yeah. It was a year, but it wasn't a year of oh, let's like joke

21:42

about it and talk about it. It was a year of working pretty intense hours.

21:45

Maybe the most I've ever worked. Yeah. David: Those first 2018, 2019 were

21:49

Paul: both pretty tough years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I mean by the rage is useful if you channel that ego and rage

21:54

into just working really hard, I think that's a good way to get started, yeah.

21:58

David: I think a lot of founders have a chip on their shoulder or Yeah.

22:01

Some reason that they feel the need Paul: To go on this ridiculously difficult, totally journey.

22:06

Yeah, totally. So just channel that and you and into something like kind of productive,

22:11

because it's not gonna last forever. So in our case, David and I were in different parts of the country.

22:16

David was in Chicago. I was in San Francisco.

22:18

It was a big deal for you to move. David: Yeah.

22:22

. And in keeping with our Batar ice, I basically did abandon my

22:25

girlfriend cuz she was in Chicago. Oh yeah.

22:27

For Roxy. I moved to San Francisco and then we had to do this long distance thing where we'd

22:32

have to fly to each other every three Paul: weeks. Yeah, but you're still together, so That's true.

22:37

So yeah, obviously the best time to quit is when you have funding.

22:41

You have your co-founder, you have your idea, you have an mvp, you have an mvp,

22:46

you have some proof that it's working. That's the best time to quit.

22:51

But if you can't do that, then keep trying . I mean, maybe,

22:56

I mean, that might look okay. I also know a lot of people who quit and then figured it all out.

23:02

But it, boy is it hard.