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your comeback today at purdueglobal.edu. It

2:09

all started with a rumor. It went

2:11

like this. Back in

2:14

1989, on prom night, a teenager boasted

2:17

that he had just committed murder. He

2:19

showed off a freshly inked tattoo, a

2:21

badge of honor for the killing. Or

2:24

so the rumor went. No one

2:26

took it seriously until 2004 when

2:29

two federal agents began looking into it.

2:32

But here's the thing. Unlike

2:35

almost every other murder case, in

2:37

this case, the agents had a

2:40

suspect, but no idea who

2:42

the victim was. This

2:44

is also the story of a family

2:46

searching for answers about why their brother

2:48

was killed. These two

2:51

storylines collide in a courtroom in

2:53

Philadelphia where murder, memory,

2:56

and morality go on trial. This

2:59

is the story of Deep Cover the

3:01

Nameless Man, posted by me,

3:03

Jay Calpern. Today, I'm in

3:06

your feed to bring you an episode from our

3:08

latest season. Listen to Deep

3:10

Cover the Nameless Man wherever you

3:12

get your podcasts and enjoy this

3:14

preview. I've

3:16

been a journalist for 25 years and

3:19

there's this little ritual that I do at the end

3:21

of every interview. When it

3:23

works, it shakes everything up,

3:25

creates a bit of chaos. I

3:28

call it the Hail Mary of questions.

3:31

It's like a last ditch effort to

3:34

find something, anything that I might've missed.

3:36

I just say, hey, what's

3:39

a question I should've asked you? Most

3:42

of the time, like 90% of the time, the

3:45

answer is, I don't know, I think we

3:47

covered it all. But every

3:50

once in a while, a person says,

3:54

well, there is one thing we

3:56

didn't talk about. And

3:58

then they drop a bomb. Say

4:01

something totally unexpected and at

4:03

that moment I always

4:05

imagine a door creaking open. That

4:11

in a nutshell is what this season is

4:13

about. It's about a guy, two

4:15

guys actually, who come upon just

4:17

such a door and on the

4:20

other side of it is a very dark

4:22

secret. These

4:29

two guys were federal officers. One

4:31

of them was an FBI agent based

4:33

in Delaware named Scott Duffy and

4:36

Scott, he has his

4:38

own version of the Hail Mary question. One

4:42

of the things that like I will routinely

4:44

do is, is there anything

4:47

that we should be looking at that

4:52

could be investigated that we're

4:54

not looking at. Back

4:57

in 2004 Scott posed

4:59

this very question to a woman

5:01

named Patricia Miller. At

5:03

the time Scott was visiting Patricia at

5:06

her home in Delaware to learn more

5:08

about her ex-boyfriend, a guy named Tom

5:10

Guybison. There had been

5:12

some rumors that Tom, her ex, was plotting

5:14

to go after a local cop and

5:17

the FBI had asked Scott to look into this

5:20

to do a so-called threat assessment.

5:23

Scott didn't get that much out of this interview

5:25

with Patricia but before leaving

5:28

he tossed out his Hail Mary question

5:31

and that's when she told him about

5:33

the murder. She mentions

5:36

well there is this alleged

5:38

murder to have taken place that

5:40

when he was in high school

5:44

that he had committed a murder for black

5:46

man in order

5:48

to gain access into this

5:50

white supremacy group within

5:52

Delaware. Patricia goes

5:55

on to say that Tom, her ex,

5:57

was proud of this murder. back

6:00

when he was younger, a teenager. But

6:02

even years later, he bragged about what

6:04

he'd done. How

6:06

he'd driven into Philadelphia late at

6:08

night and shot a pedestrian, a

6:10

random black man, all

6:12

allegedly so he could earn some

6:14

street cred as a racist skinhead. Scott

6:24

pressed Patricia for details. Was

6:26

there any evidence? Did she have any proof?

6:30

According to Scott, she talked about

6:32

a newspaper article from the time

6:34

about the man's death and

6:36

how it was described as a

6:39

drug-related killing. She said that

6:41

Tom held onto this article for a while so

6:43

he could brag about it, intimating,

6:46

no one knows, but I did this.

6:49

I killed this guy. That's

6:52

what Patricia said anyhow. All

6:55

of this got Scott thinking. If

6:57

this murder really happened, maybe

7:00

it wasn't so random after all. Maybe

7:03

it was predicated on a callous, cynical

7:05

piece of logic that no

7:07

one would care about this victim, or

7:10

at least no one in a position of

7:12

power or authority. If

7:14

there's no evidence and there's no witnesses, no cameras,

7:17

let's move on. And that's what Tom

7:19

would be banking on and just be a drug

7:22

deal gone bad. That bothered me. That

7:25

bothered me. Scott

7:28

may have been upset about all this, but he

7:31

was also at a loss. How

7:33

do you investigate a murder when you don't even

7:35

know who the victim is? Eventually,

7:37

Scott and his partner paid a visit to

7:40

the Free Public Library of Philadelphia. They

7:42

wanted to find that newspaper article covering

7:45

the victim's death. Scott

7:47

recalled Patricia saying it was in

7:49

the Philadelphia Inquirer. They

7:52

felt like if they could just somehow get

7:54

a hold of that article, it

7:56

might answer so many questions. In

7:59

other words, would this be a case of a crime? give us a name? Would

8:01

this give us a location? Would this give

8:03

us a date? Because we still didn't have

8:06

a date. But there's got to be countless

8:08

articles of people that were just randomly killed

8:10

in Philadelphia, not only countless articles, but then

8:13

you realize there are other newspapers. What if

8:15

she's wrong? It's not the Philadelphia Inquirer. It

8:18

sounds like a fool's errand. I'm

8:20

glad we did it. I'm glad we

8:22

made the trip. But I

8:24

don't think we found anything.

8:27

Nothing. So game

8:30

over, right? I mean, this

8:32

murder, if it even happened, would

8:35

have occurred approximately 15 years prior.

8:38

It was a cold case. And

8:40

yet, Scott and his partner, a

8:43

guy named Terry Mortimer, they

8:45

had this feeling that if

8:47

they persisted, we

8:50

might uncover something

8:52

we're destined to uncover. That

8:55

may sound corny, but I

8:59

felt something. I think Terry

9:01

felt something. And we didn't know

9:04

quite what and it could have been absolutely

9:06

taken us down another rabbit hole of something

9:08

that's just never could be proven. So

9:11

what do you do with that? Exactly.

9:13

What do you do with that? What do you do with

9:15

something that's not to be cute, but you can't exactly go

9:17

back to your boss and say that me and Terry feel

9:19

a sense of destiny here, right? No.

9:23

So this was mission Creek, big time.

9:25

Plus, it's not like there was anyone

9:28

that they knew of anyhow demanding justice

9:30

for the victim. Terry

9:32

and I could have easily said, we're

9:34

done. And let's walk

9:37

away. Nobody's going to be calling us to

9:39

say, Hey, Terry, and

9:41

Scott, do you have any updates for us? You

9:44

know, we're waiting. We haven't heard back from you.

9:47

That was missing. But

9:49

is somewhere in the back of

9:51

your head, are you imagining that like

9:53

there is a mother or brother who's

9:57

trying to understand or figure out what may have

9:59

happened? their loved one that was left

10:02

for dead? I think that

10:05

aspect was

10:09

the driving factor.

10:12

We couldn't just leave it alone.

10:15

Somehow it was

10:17

making sense that

10:19

Terry and I were put together for

10:22

this very reason of

10:25

solving this hate

10:28

crime, this murder that took place

10:30

on the streets of Philadelphia because

10:32

somebody was black, that

10:35

we felt like

10:37

we had

10:39

a duty to this person and somehow

10:41

this person was drawing

10:45

us. And

10:48

that's it. You can almost

10:50

hear it, the door creaking

10:52

open. This

10:57

is a story about what happens when

10:59

two guys uncover a clue about

11:02

something terrible, something evil,

11:05

a crime for which there has been no justice and

11:08

they have nothing to go on. They

11:10

don't have a victim, they don't have a

11:12

body, they don't even have a name. I'm

11:29

Jake Halper and this is

11:32

Deep Cover season four, The

11:34

Nameless Man. The

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14:03

to recap: Scott. And

14:05

Terry's investigation did not start off as

14:07

a quest to solve a cold case.

14:10

Now. Or. Find a murder victim. Originally

14:12

back in two thousand and four, they

14:15

were asked to do a threat assessment

14:17

on Tom Guy be said. That's.

14:19

Why the interview? The ex girlfriend. At

14:22

the time, Tom Godson was thirty three

14:24

years old. He was in federal

14:27

prison and gun charges. But. He

14:29

was about to be released and

14:31

the said had some intel that

14:33

term might be seeking retribution planning

14:35

to harm the cop who put

14:37

him behind bars. This

14:40

is why the said were called

14:42

in and initially this was gotten

14:44

Terry's top priority to determine if

14:46

this threat was real. But.

14:48

To came up short and some points

14:50

stop. Looking into Tom for the threat

14:52

assessment. But. They still

14:54

had this rumor. this side story

14:56

that some fifteen years prior back

14:59

in the Nineteen eighties when Tom

15:01

was still in high school that

15:03

he may have killed a black

15:05

man in Philadelphia. Who

15:08

this man might be they had

15:10

no idea, but. They kept

15:13

poking around. They wanted to see

15:15

what they can learn about. Tom

15:17

Guy doesn't and is he had

15:19

any connections to white supremacist gangs?

15:24

And this is where Terry Mortimer

15:26

scouts partner. Really? Came into

15:28

play. And. Innocence thing about gangs

15:30

is there are gangs in there is like you know

15:33

not real gangsta that er det people say the part

15:35

of a game but they aren't kind of thing. Terry

15:38

was a special agent with the

15:40

A D S the Bureau of

15:42

Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. He

15:45

worked in intelligence and he

15:47

focused heavily on guns and

15:49

gangs. So. Terry

15:52

wants to know. Who's. Times

15:54

deal. I knew

15:56

he a course was imprisoned obviously for

15:59

gun charges you know been of a

16:01

good state prison arm federally. Ah,

16:04

he had their eggs prior contact with the law. Carry

16:07

learned that Tom was first arrested at

16:09

the age of fourteen and a deadly

16:11

weapons charge. A few

16:13

years later, when he was nineteen, he

16:16

was convicted of reckless endangerment after he

16:18

shot a gun at a moving car

16:20

full of people. At

16:24

the time, a local newspaper in

16:26

Wilmington, Delaware ran an article on

16:28

Tom. It described him

16:30

as a hulking weightlifter with a number

16:32

of tattoos, including a clenched fist on

16:35

the type of his scalp and the

16:37

words born in the Usa and the

16:39

back of his neck. In.

16:41

The article guy person says at

16:44

one time he was a blue

16:46

collar skinhead. Tom. Define this

16:48

as: quote buying American, not

16:50

doing drugs and not drinking.

16:54

To be clear, there are different types

16:56

of skinheads. Not all are racist, but

16:59

in the late eighties and early nineties

17:01

skinheads were emerging as the face of

17:03

violent right wing nationalism in the U.

17:06

Their notoriety seem to really peek

17:09

at that time. One headline from

17:11

Eighty Nine in The New York

17:13

Times Red Violin to racism attract

17:15

new breed. Skinheads, So.

17:19

The possibility that a racist

17:21

skinhead might have orchestrated murder

17:23

he was plausible. But.

17:25

That alone. Wasn't. A

17:27

whole lot to go on. Scott.

17:33

And Terry decided to focus on what

17:36

Patricia, the ex girlfriend told them. They

17:38

honed in on to clues in particular. The

17:42

first clue involved attack to. Patricia

17:45

mentioned that Tom had attached to have

17:47

a spider web on his elbow with

17:49

a tear drop in it. And

17:52

that he liked to brag. That has gotten

17:54

it. Essentially as a badge

17:56

of honor. For. Killing a black

17:58

man until it out. The yeah. I

18:01

know enough about gang members is sometimes. Things.

18:03

Aren't what they say? They are that the the

18:06

might get a tattoo purported to be something that

18:08

really isn't true, are just gonna build a rap

18:10

a little bit. Terry was

18:12

skeptical. the tom and killed someone

18:14

just a join a skinhead gang.

18:17

Maybe. Tommy Just posing. Building.

18:19

Up his rap is a really

18:21

violent dude. I mean honestly, Maybe

18:24

this whole thing was bullshit, right? I

18:27

couldn't really stylists you know intelligence wise of Tommy

18:29

was part of the skin had gang. I didn't

18:31

think he was. I think he was kind of

18:33

more a self described skinhead. And

18:36

this raise the question. Would. A

18:38

self described skinhead acting on his

18:40

own really murder someone for what?

18:42

so we could give himself a

18:45

tattoo? And all of while he was still

18:47

in high school. Seem like

18:49

a stretch. Okay,

18:51

he was the second clue and it

18:53

was a promising one. According

18:55

to the ex girlfriend Patricia,

18:58

Tommy bragged about having an

19:00

accomplice. A. Guy named Craig

19:02

Peterson. Allegedly the orchestrated

19:05

this murder together and both

19:07

of them get those same

19:09

spiderweb tattoos. Now.

19:12

Is this was true? And. If

19:14

they could find craig. And if

19:16

he would talk with Nbc Huge

19:19

but. That was what is.

19:22

So. They started coming through

19:24

public records asking around about this.

19:26

Craig got the suppose it accomplice

19:28

and here's what they sound: Craig.

19:31

with an old buddy from times high school days.

19:34

He. Also identified specifically as

19:36

a blue collar skinhead. Created

19:40

grown up in Delaware, but sars

19:42

anyone could tell he wasn't living

19:44

there any more. Seem. Like

19:46

he committed disappeared. And.

19:49

Then they get a lead. We.

19:52

Santa He's in. Peace. And for months

19:54

ago, remote part of Vermont. And.

19:57

I remember I I said. This.

19:59

to side men He's hiding. I

20:01

said, that cat from Wilmington, Delaware, lived in a

20:03

Vermont man. I said, dude, it gets cold up

20:06

there, man. I mean, that's a cold place, bro.

20:09

So they put on their winter coats and

20:12

headed north. It

20:16

was now December of 2004. It

20:19

had been about a month since they first heard the

20:21

rumor. And now here they

20:23

were in the car driving into the

20:25

chill of a Vermont winter. The

20:28

fire was hovering around freezing that night. And

20:31

as they sped along through the

20:34

green mountains past darkened forests of

20:36

evergreens, they had no

20:38

idea what to expect. Like,

20:41

what are you hoping to find out? At

20:45

this point, we're like, man, whatever he's

20:47

got, he's got to give us something, man,

20:49

because we're, again, we're spinning our wheels. It

20:52

felt like, man, if this doesn't come through,

20:54

I think we're, honestly, I think we're done. He

20:57

recalls on that drive up to Vermont,

20:59

they talked a lot about why they

21:02

couldn't or shouldn't give up on the

21:04

case. So we had great,

21:06

great discussions. And that's when I

21:08

really, we both realized, wow, wait a minute, this is

21:10

not an accident that he and I are team together.

21:12

This was like literally, we didn't do

21:14

this. We couldn't plan this. And

21:17

there was a reason for this feeling. Turns

21:19

out there was a strange symmetry to

21:22

their lives that dated back to before

21:24

they ever met. So

21:26

we're going to leave Scott and Terry in

21:28

the car, heading up to Vermont and

21:31

turn back the clock. For

21:38

Scott, it all started when he graduated

21:40

high school. He wanted to be

21:42

a cop, but by his own estimation, at

21:45

the time, he was too

21:47

small, too transformative, both for

21:49

him and also for the way that

21:51

other people looked at him. I

21:54

would be sitting in a pew, maybe praying

21:56

in a church, somebody would come by

21:58

and start confessing. And people just

22:01

started pouring their souls out to me. In

22:04

these moments, Scott was learning how to listen,

22:07

how to suspend judgment, how

22:09

to be patient as people grapple

22:11

with some burdensome secret, inching their

22:13

way towards the precipice of truth.

22:17

He spent five years training to become a

22:19

priest, but dreams are

22:21

stubborn things, and his didn't

22:23

go away. He

22:25

left the seminary to become a cop and

22:28

then an FBI agent. It

22:30

is harder to leave than it is to go

22:32

in. And that's ultimately because I think now

22:35

you've entered this relationship with God,

22:38

and now you're afraid of pissing him off. For

22:41

Scott, this shift in careers seemed like

22:43

a natural progression. For

22:46

him, the seminary prepared him for this

22:48

work, prepared him to

22:50

listen and see his way through

22:52

a messy world fraught with moral

22:54

dilemmas. But when he'd

22:56

tell people about his past, how he'd

22:59

almost become a priest, they're like,

23:01

oh my gosh, I can never

23:03

imagine. The two are

23:05

totally opposed to each other, and I never

23:07

understood that. But there

23:09

was at least one person

23:12

who got it completely, Terry.

23:15

I went to college at a

23:17

very small Bible college and

23:19

was preparing for ministry. From

23:21

a young age, Terry felt destined for

23:23

the ministry. But later on,

23:26

when he was in Bible college, he had

23:28

second thoughts. As graduation

23:30

approached, a friend asked him, you

23:33

ever consider becoming a cop? The

23:35

short answer was no, but on

23:38

a whim, Terry applied and met with

23:40

a recruiter. And this guy was

23:43

a hardcore dude. I mean, he looked at

23:45

me. I was back then I was skinny.

23:48

He looked at me and said, you're from where?

23:50

And you want to do what? Like, you're from

23:52

Bible college, man. Do you have any idea what

23:54

you're applying for, what you're trying to do? I

23:56

said, no, sir, I have no idea. undeterred.

24:01

He became a cop and then an agent

24:03

with the ATF. And this

24:05

is not a consolation job for Terry.

24:08

He's very clear about this. He

24:10

feels that God had a purpose for him in law

24:13

enforcement. And that's

24:15

the thing you got to understand about both

24:18

Terry and Scott. These are

24:20

not men who look at the world and see coincidences.

24:22

What they see is much closer

24:25

to fate or God's will. And

24:28

when they became partners, it all

24:30

seemed meant to be. Here were two guys

24:32

who early on looked too skinny and

24:34

earnest to be caught. Guys

24:37

who intended to become men of God, different

24:39

in their own ways. Terry

24:41

grew up in a gritty river town

24:43

in Pennsylvania. And he kind of

24:45

feels like a dude you'd play around a mini

24:47

golf with, grab a burger, have

24:49

a laugh, and then realize only

24:52

belatedly that you told him more than

24:54

you intended to. Scott,

24:56

well, he's more formal. He's from

24:58

Connecticut, a really Yankee, a man

25:01

who chooses his words carefully, a

25:04

patient priest who knows how to

25:06

nurse a long pregnant pause. The

25:08

two of them worked well together, complimented

25:11

one another, the Pennsylvania

25:13

pastor and the New England priest.

25:19

And I've been calling them partners,

25:21

but they only ever worked together

25:23

on this one investigation. It

25:26

was an unusual collaboration between the

25:28

FBI and the ATF. And

25:30

they didn't choose one another. They were

25:33

kind of paired randomly, though

25:35

neither of them would say it was random. You

25:37

know, that's we started realizing, wait a

25:40

minute, we're on a mission

25:42

from God. Yep.

25:45

Just like the Blues Brothers. We

25:48

didn't really say that. I'm just making it up.

25:50

But that was that was the feeling was a

25:52

hey, no, but it was like, no joke. Like

25:54

this is the real deal. Like, like, it's almost

25:56

like we're walking through almost like a dream. Like

25:58

what is going on here? So,

26:01

yeah, even though all they had

26:03

was a rumor of a long

26:05

forgotten crime that might not have

26:07

even happened, these

26:10

two almost ministers, the God Squad

26:12

as it were, still

26:14

felt certain that they were here

26:16

in this car heading north into

26:18

Vermont for a reason. And

26:21

they were convinced that something important

26:23

was waiting for them. That's

26:26

when we get back. As

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28:54

Scott and Terry had this hunch

28:56

that there was a reason Craig,

28:59

the alleged accomplice, was up in

29:01

Vermont, up in the mountains, that

29:03

he was hiding. But

29:06

if so, who was he

29:08

hiding from and why? In

29:11

any case, they knew they had to be careful. They'd

29:14

learned from police reports that in the

29:16

past, Craig had helped Tom clean and

29:18

store a whole arsenal of weapons. Why'd

29:21

he do this? Well, Tom had a felony

29:23

on his record, which meant he wasn't supposed

29:25

to have any guns, so his

29:28

buddy Craig helped him out. This

29:30

suggested two things to the agents. One,

29:33

Craig was loyal. He ended up

29:35

going to prison for storing those weapons. And

29:38

two, Craig was probably handy with

29:40

a gun. The

29:42

God Squad was still hatching their plan as

29:45

they rolled into town. It

29:51

was late. I

29:54

feel like we were closing in on midnight. And

29:56

we didn't want to put it off. We

29:59

were just so full of money. energy. It

30:03

was late for a doorknob, very late,

30:06

but their excitement eclipsed their caution.

30:09

So instead of waiting until morning, they

30:11

drove right to his house. Their

30:14

plan was to say hello, introduce themselves

30:16

and arrange to have a formal sit

30:18

down the following day. And

30:22

when we finally found where

30:24

he lives, he lives literally

30:26

on top of like, if it's on a mountain, it's

30:28

a very, very tall hill. It's very tall and very

30:30

steep. I remember it being

30:33

very, very dark. Like,

30:36

I don't think I could see my hand in front of me. And

30:40

as soon as we got out of our cars, I

30:43

think we got out a few feet and

30:45

then floodlights. I just remember

30:47

floodlights, like we were in a stadium

30:51

just shined upon us. I

30:54

mean, it was like, bright as day. He

30:57

had hooked up these spotlights and trees illuminating

30:59

the whole area. And we could see

31:02

his house dimly up the top of the hill. I

31:04

think I may have made a comment to Scott. I

31:06

said, man, if he had any ill

31:08

intent, we'd be dead men right now. That

31:10

told me a lot that, wow.

31:16

You know, what is inside this person that

31:18

he has this going

31:20

on where he wants

31:22

to be made well aware of anybody

31:24

arriving? I'm

31:26

thinking man, he does not

31:28

want to be found. Scott

31:36

and Terry start trudging up the

31:38

icy snow covered hill. They

31:40

can hear dogs barking from within the house. Eventually

31:43

they get up to the front porch and

31:46

Craig walks out. He's medium

31:48

height and stocky with a closely

31:51

cropped haircut. Scott

31:53

calls out to him. Craig Peterson,

31:55

you don't know us, but we're here. I'm going

31:57

to talk to you federal agents. Can you We

32:00

approach you. Can

32:02

we come up the your house and. Within.

32:07

Ten seconds, Just a

32:09

very friendly, inviting demeanor

32:12

got up. And. Coming to

32:14

my house. Is sigh of

32:16

relief for that. but the definitely a

32:18

sigh of relief. First and foremost we've

32:21

achieved or first goal is finding him.

32:24

Achieved our second goal of.

32:26

Being able to were be face to face

32:29

with him. Or third goal

32:31

was to get him to come and speak

32:33

with us at a different location. We were

32:35

going to talk to him at his house.

32:38

Crack. Votes them inside, he introduces

32:41

them to his fiance. It's all

32:43

very normal. And craig.

32:45

Seems unfazed. He was

32:48

very relaxed, a very gracious and we

32:50

just got almost opposite of what have

32:52

I was expecting. Scott.

32:54

And Terry explain that they just him.

32:56

a few questions for him but an

32:58

old matter from the past. The keep

33:00

it deliberately vague and they asked if

33:02

he'd be willing to meet with them

33:04

the following day. down at the barracks

33:06

were the Vermont State Police are stationed.

33:09

Craig's. Like sure. I'll meet

33:11

you tomorrow. After I'm done with work,

33:14

All the while, Terry is studying both

33:17

Craig and his fiance trying to get

33:19

a read on them. To

33:21

see I say was. Way more

33:23

concerned that he was like Hewlett. What's going

33:26

on A good what's this about He's are

33:28

stressed that all. Actors: no stress

33:30

with the stats Us and I'm like this

33:32

is unbelievable. The.

33:34

Next day Scottish Terrier down at the

33:37

barracks of the for months the police

33:39

and they're just hoping Cregg actually shows

33:41

up. Here in a league in

33:43

a show up and was the odds he's gonna show

33:45

up like and was like fifty said the me. But

33:49

he shows up early and

33:51

after a little chitchat, they

33:53

sit down and get to

33:55

business. Scott. Explains their hear.

33:58

About. tom guy doesn't Craig,

34:01

we've made a long

34:03

trip and we've been

34:06

investigating Tom

34:08

for a possible threat. And

34:10

during the course of that investigation,

34:14

we've learned that a story was told.

34:18

This is the story they'd heard

34:20

from Patricia, Tom's ex-girlfriend, that

34:22

some 15 years prior, Craig and

34:24

Tom had been skinheads, that

34:27

they'd killed a black man in Philadelphia. And

34:30

then, gotten tattoos to commemorate what

34:32

they'd done. And

34:34

Craig just looked at us. Uh,

34:39

shocked. Almost

34:43

a sense of, I

34:47

can't believe that

34:50

this is coming back. And

34:55

then, he sat back in his chair and said,

34:59

I don't know what you're talking about.

35:05

Scott keeps pressing gently, very

35:07

much playing the role of the New England priest

35:09

that he almost was, concealing

35:11

any signs of judgment, just

35:14

patiently probing. Well,

35:18

at the very least, would you

35:20

admit you have the tattoo? Why

35:23

would they lie about the story? Would

35:26

they also lie about the tattoo? So

35:31

would you raise your, would

35:33

you raise your sleeve? And

35:37

so, begrudgingly, he did. He showed us

35:40

his tattoo. A

35:42

gothic-looking spiderweb in black ink with

35:45

the elbow directly at the center,

35:48

similar to what Patricia had described.

35:51

And Craig admitted that he and Tom both

35:53

had tattoos like this, that they'd

35:55

gotten them together back in high school. And

35:57

Craig admitted that back in his youth, yeah.

36:00

He'd been a skinhead, but it had

36:02

just been a phase. He

36:05

said, Ben, that was a long time ago. I was a young knucklehead

36:08

and I don't believe that stuff anymore. You

36:11

know, man, I'm up here. I'm working hard, man. I've guys

36:13

I'm I work every day. I really

36:15

hourly wage. I work as an electrician. I've got

36:17

a new life. I don't

36:19

want to be part of this. He just denied the whole thing, but I

36:22

can't overemphasize. I'm watching

36:24

this cat. I'm like, he's not stressed at all. At

36:28

this point, despite the fact that

36:30

Craig had this tattoo, which offered

36:32

some cooperation, Scott and Terry

36:34

basically have to let him go. They

36:37

say, hey, let's keep in touch. If

36:40

you ever come down to Delaware, please let us know.

36:42

We like to keep talking. He

36:44

was, he said, yeah, if I come down there, like, Jake,

36:46

no one's ever going to say, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll look you guys

36:49

up if I'm ever down in Delaware. Sure. Like, we're going to have

36:51

a dinner together. I'm thinking nobody does that. Nobody

36:54

wants to talk to their least favorite FBI and ATF

36:56

agent. In the world, about a homicide,

36:58

they didn't commit. In Terry's

37:00

mind, it was weird how friendly he

37:02

was. And it

37:04

also seemed difficult to imagine that

37:07

this guy right here, this laid-back

37:09

electrician living in Vermont, could be

37:11

capable of orchestrating a murder.

37:15

If the dude was in the car with

37:18

the, and they did a homicide, however

37:20

went down, whoever pulled the trigger,

37:22

they can, I'm not seeing it. I

37:25

mean, if it did happen and he was in the very car,

37:27

I see nothing nonverbal in this

37:30

guy. There's no stress.

37:32

There's no deception. I'm looking

37:34

at his eyes. I'm looking at his whole

37:36

facial. I'm looking at everything. I'm thinking, this

37:38

guy's like the – he's like the best liar ever. So

37:41

they say goodbye to Craig. They thank

37:44

the Vermont state troopers. They walk out of

37:46

the barracks, get in their car, and

37:48

head home, all the while

37:51

trying to make sense of what they've just

37:53

learned. And

37:55

I said, Scott, I don't

37:57

think it happened, man, because what he made – I said – There's

38:01

no way that dude, there's no way. I said maybe

38:03

Tommy did something? I don't know, but he didn't do

38:05

nothing. I'm telling you, that dude is way

38:07

too cool. And Scott goes, nah,

38:10

I kind of think something's there, man. This

38:13

happened. And

38:17

we're definitely not stopping. I

38:19

said, Scott, I'm not saying it, man. I

38:21

said, dude, I said, I think we're toast, bro. After

38:24

this, time passes, about a year and

38:27

a half. And during

38:29

this stretch, very little happens in this

38:31

case. Craig

38:33

keeps living his quiet life up in the

38:35

Vermont mountains. Occasionally, the God

38:37

Squad gives him a call, just to check

38:39

in, but Craig never tells him

38:41

anything new. Meanwhile,

38:44

Tom Guybison finishes serving his time

38:46

in federal prison. He's

38:48

released, goes back to living in Delaware,

38:50

where he seems to stay out of

38:52

trouble. Then one

38:54

day, in April of 2006,

38:57

the God Squad gets a phone

38:59

call from Craig. Craig

39:02

says, hey, basically, I'm coming

39:04

down to see my mom. You

39:06

know, you guys would have still talked to me. I'm

39:10

so incredulous. The dude is volunteering. You know, nothing's

39:12

happened in the year or whatever months it's been.

39:15

There's no subpoenas. There's no arrests. There's no search

39:17

warrants. Nothing. He's got to think he's Scott Free.

39:20

Are you pretty surprised to get this phone call?

39:23

Yeah. I mean, again, I'm like, this

39:25

is unbelievable. It doesn't make any sense to me.

39:28

But honestly, I literally felt like,

39:33

does he want friends? Does he need friends? There's

39:36

some things that are miraculous. They don't look miraculous,

39:38

but they literally are miraculous. So that doesn't

39:40

happen in the real world, man. It doesn't happen.

39:44

Terry and Scott are determined to make

39:46

the most of this meeting, and they

39:48

go for a new strategy. They've tried

39:50

the whole good cop routine, and it

39:52

hasn't worked. Not really. So

39:56

time to apply a little pressure. They

39:58

get a subpoena requiring a new job. Craig

40:00

to testify before a grand jury about

40:02

the murder that allegedly took place. This

40:05

is no joke. The subpoena will

40:07

put Craig on the spot because lying

40:10

before a grand jury is a serious

40:12

offense that can land you in prison

40:14

for years. But remember, they

40:16

still have pretty much nothing on Craig at this

40:19

point. So the subpoena, it's

40:21

kind of a bluff. What's

40:23

your mindset going into that meeting? Our

40:27

mindset is this. We

40:31

had a subpoena. We're

40:33

going to give it to them. You always have

40:35

to hand deliver it. There was going to

40:37

be no more wiggle room, no more postponements. This

40:40

is now going to be the make it or break it.

40:44

So Craig shows up at the

40:46

FBI's offices in Wilmington, Delaware. He's

40:48

got no idea that there's a subpoena waiting

40:50

for him. What

40:52

happens next, we piece together from talking

40:55

to the agents and reading their

40:57

report from that day. Initially,

41:00

it's all smiles. Terry keeps the

41:02

whole thing really upbeat. Hey, we

41:04

thank you for coming down. This is awesome. You

41:08

know, we really appreciate it. They

41:10

asked Craig again about the rumor of

41:12

the murder down in Philadelphia. They

41:15

tell him, we don't think you're telling

41:17

us the truth. And

41:19

this time, instead of denying the whole

41:21

thing outright, Craig concedes

41:24

that maybe back at the

41:26

time, there'd been some chatter about this. I

41:29

think he said something like, yeah, we heard rumors about that, that

41:31

someone said we did a homicide. But man,

41:34

that's no, that's nothing to it. We didn't

41:36

do any homicides. It's a bunch of junk.

41:39

Didn't happen. Yeah, maybe, maybe Tommy

41:41

said that's going to build our rep a little

41:43

bit. In other words,

41:45

a bit of bragging, but nothing more than

41:47

that. The agents push

41:50

Craig, tell him, we

41:52

believe a homicide occurred and that

41:54

you participated in it. Eventually,

41:56

when the meeting is almost over, the

41:59

hand Craig. the subpoena and

42:01

kind of hold their breath. And

42:04

again, we're shooting blanks. We have nothing,

42:06

right? Well, his whole demeanor changed. When

42:09

he got the subpoena, he's like, what the

42:11

stress, right? It went from like zero to

42:13

like he's, he's hitting about a 10. That

42:18

meeting ends without a breakthrough. Craig

42:21

didn't admit to anything. But

42:23

a few days later, he calls

42:25

them back, says he wants to

42:27

meet again, have another sit down. So

42:30

they reconvene. And

42:33

at this meeting, right off

42:35

the bat, the mood is tense. When

42:40

he arrived, I

42:42

could tell he was depleted, shaken.

42:48

His whole body had changed to a

42:51

defeatist demeanor.

42:54

He was like completely, completely

42:57

180 degree change. And

42:59

he literally, it's hard to describe. It

43:02

was literally like an invisible hand was

43:04

pushing him down in the chair. He

43:07

physically got smaller. I saw him shrink

43:09

like, like, like he was like, getting

43:12

deflated. He started sweating.

43:16

Beads of sweat were popping out. You

43:19

can feel the tension, but you can

43:21

also feel like he's

43:26

about to say something. And then

43:28

he's, he

43:31

says, I'll tell you everything. I'll

43:33

tell you everything. I'll

43:37

tell you everything. He's

43:41

about to say something. And then

43:44

he's, he

43:46

says, I'll tell you

43:48

everything. I'll tell you everything. I'll

43:52

tell you everything. And

43:54

at this moment, it seemed like

43:57

maybe, just maybe. They've

44:00

been right all along not

44:02

to give up on this and

44:04

that the truth was finally at

44:11

hand. Coming up this season on

44:13

Deep Cover. We have

44:15

to do our job and we

44:18

have to find out who did

44:20

they kill. Not that

44:22

any murder isn't disturbing but this

44:25

particular murder and the reason for

44:27

it, the hate. This

44:29

was a hate crime. I

44:33

believe Tom Guyberstein is innocent. They had

44:35

no physical evidence. They had no gun.

44:38

They had nothing. We

44:40

didn't like the speculation. The

44:43

family and I thought that this would be

44:46

good if we found at least what

44:48

happened to them. Can't do nothing about

44:50

it. Can't bring them back but at least we'll find out

44:52

the truth. Deep

45:18

Cover is produced by Amy Gaines

45:20

McQuaid and Jacob Smith. It's

45:22

edited by Karen Shkirney. Mastering

45:25

by Jake Korsky. Our

45:27

show art was designed by Sean Kearney. Original

45:30

scoring and our theme was composed by

45:32

Luis Guerra. Fact checking by

45:34

Arthur Gompers. Our

45:36

story consultant was James Forman Jr.

45:40

Special thanks to Jerry Williams, Sarah

45:42

Nix, Greta Cohn and Jake Flanagan.

45:46

I'm Jake Elbert. Thanks

45:58

for watching. Refinancing

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Visit trinityschool.org today

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