0:00

In this episode of balancing in the Christian life, we talked to preacher Mark

0:02

Roberts about how digital tools

0:05

are influencing Christianity.

0:05

Welcome to balancing the

0:10

Christian line. I'm Dr. Kenny

0:10

Embry. We'll talk about how to

0:13

be better people and better

0:13

Christians in the digital age.

0:15

Let's go. Thanks for joining.

0:15

This is the last episode I'll be

0:23

doing in 2020. And I want to

0:23

sincerely thank all of you for

0:26

being a part of this journey.

0:26

I'll have another episode next

0:28

week, and I'll talk about some of the directions for the podcast then. But last week, I

0:30

found out my podcast is in the

0:34

top 5% of all podcasts for

0:34

listenership. And that isn't

0:39

possible without you. I've also

0:39

had some amazingly positive

0:43

reaction to what I've been

0:43

doing. In my reviews, RC two

0:46

prof wrote just what we need

0:46

right now, the content here is a

0:50

value for anyone who follows God

0:50

and or seeks to know more. The

0:54

podcaster has a voice and

0:54

speaking style that's very easy

0:56

on the ears, highly recommended.

0:56

Thanks. And I have just started

1:01

trying to get financial

1:01

supporters and was simply blown

1:04

away by the response. I'm trying

1:04

to put together something which

1:07

is valuable to Christians, and I

1:07

hope I'm reaching that goal. I

1:11

also want to thank all of my

1:11

guests Chris Emerson, Darren

1:14

Curtis, Russell Clayton, Martin

1:14

mccrary, Jason Romano, Matt and

1:17

Jennifer Schmidt, very Britton,

1:17

l. Wyatt, Taylor, Craig de

1:20

Haute, Stewart Peck, regard

1:20

Smith, and my dad, if you've

1:24

missed any of those

1:24

conversations, you really need

1:27

to go back and listen, I have

1:27

gone through these both as an

1:30

editor and a listener. I keep

1:30

getting something new and

1:33

different from each of them.

1:33

Today's episode is another one

1:37

of those discovered gems for me,

1:37

Nancy Curtis is a lifelong

1:40

family friend and someone who

1:40

understands my passion for

1:42

digital discipleship. So when

1:42

she saw an article by Mark

1:45

Roberts, saying digital

1:45

discipleship was an inherent

1:49

change in how we worship, I knew

1:49

I had to talk to him. This is my

1:53

introduction to mark. And he was

1:53

both warm and sharp, Mark edits

1:57

and online magazine pressing on

1:57

which profiles several guys who

2:00

I think are doing great work. As

2:00

you may know, I spent a lot of

2:03

time editing the interviews, and

2:03

I'm sure you'll notice this one

2:06

is longer. Our conversation was

2:06

about an hour long, and I've

2:10

left most of it in Mark and I

2:10

cover a lot of ground. And I

2:14

struggled to see where I could

2:14

cut. I decided leave more than

2:18

usual, partially because I

2:18

thought the conversation was

2:20

that good. When I was growing

2:20

up, we would call someone like

2:23

mark a character. And I mean

2:23

that in the best possible way.

2:27

He definitely has strong

2:27

opinions, many which I share.

2:31

But I think he sees both the

2:31

advantages and disadvantages to

2:34

online tools. One of the last

2:34

questions I asked him was what

2:38

the world looks like after the

2:38

pandemic. And I think Mark has

2:42

one of the best answers I've

2:42

heard in a while. Well, today,

2:45

it's my very great pleasure to

2:45

be talking to mark Roberts. Mark

2:48

is somebody who's been preaching

2:48

for a long time at the Westside

2:51

Church of Christ in Irving,

2:51

Texas. He's also a prolific

2:54

writer, he is somebody who is an

2:54

editor for an online publication

2:58

called pressing on. By the way,

2:58

it's not a very expensive

3:01

publication cost $10 for the

3:01

year. So if you're interested in

3:05

that, look up pressing on

3:05

magazine.com you can subscribe

3:08

to it there. Mark is somebody

3:08

who understands digital

3:11

discipleship in a special way.

3:11

And one of the things that

3:14

sparked my interest in talking

3:14

to Mark was, he published an

3:17

article not too long ago that

3:17

talked about how digital

3:21

discipleship might be changing

3:21

what happens to us in the

3:24

future. So anyway, Mark, it's a

3:24

pleasure to have you on man,

3:26

Kenny, thank

3:27

you for thinking

3:27

that I might know a little bit

3:30

about some of this. This is a

3:30

new area for all of us. And I

3:33

think we're all trying to figure

3:33

things out. And of course, the

3:36

pandemic made it that much more

3:36

urgent that we would figure some

3:39

things out about digital discipleship.

3:41

Let me ask this

3:41

first. It sounds like you've

3:43

been preaching What about 20 years or so?

3:45

Oh, you're very

3:45

kind. You and I are going to be

3:47

friends. If you continue to

3:47

underestimate my age. I've been

3:52

here at Westside almost 30

3:52

years. Oh, my goodness. I

3:56

haven't been that many places.

3:56

So all combined. I've been

3:59

preaching rule a little bit more

3:59

than 36 years. I think.

4:03

So what's your background?

4:04

My parents are

4:04

wonderful, godly people. My dad

4:07

served as an elder in the

4:07

church, really, really good

4:10

people raised me to know the

4:10

Lord and appreciate his word in

4:14

a very deep way. That's always

4:14

been a huge part of my life,

4:18

then went to college and met a

4:18

very special young lady there.

4:23

We ended up getting married.

4:23

Other than knowing Jesus Christ,

4:26

the single greatest blessing in

4:26

my life, I was pretty determined

4:30

to be an accountant was going to

4:30

make my first million before I

4:34

was 30. Because everyone knows

4:34

money is the most important

4:38

thing in life. Fortunately, the

4:38

Lord helped me come to a better

4:43

understanding and appreciation

4:43

of some things primarily through

4:46

my wife. She was a tremendous

4:46

help in growing up and maturing

4:51

and seeing some better things.

4:51

I'd received a lot of

4:53

encouragement along the way I

4:53

did some Phil in preaching would

4:57

make talks on Wednesday nights.

4:57

Teach Bible class. And there

5:01

were a lot of people pushing me

5:01

and saying you really need to be

5:04

preaching, you should think

5:04

about preaching. didn't think I

5:07

could make my first million

5:07

before 30 being a preacher. So

5:10

just wasn't very interested in

5:10

doing that. And heard a lot of

5:14

preaching horror stories was

5:14

very, very reluctant. But as I

5:17

said, Dana helped me grow up a

5:17

lot and helped me mature and

5:21

rethink some things, and finally

5:21

made the decision that that

5:24

really was what I needed to be doing.

5:27

You've been

5:27

preaching for a while now, what

5:29

kind of things have changed.

5:30

I think a lot of

5:30

things have changed. In the last

5:33

30 something years, I think

5:33

about just how the church

5:37

conducts outreach about whether

5:37

or not you had a yellow pages

5:41

ad, I don't think I have a

5:41

yellow pages in my house,

5:44

there's probably one around this

5:44

church building somewhere. It's

5:46

just utterly unimportant. Now,

5:46

everything is out on the web,

5:50

and we need to be on the web. I

5:50

think there's been a big change

5:54

in our emphasis, as the churches

5:54

has grown, and changed his

5:59

brother. And I've seen some

5:59

important areas where maybe we

6:03

were not as strong and we needed

6:03

to strengthen I grew up with

6:07

lots and lots of preaching about

6:07

the issues, and lots and lots of

6:11

preaching about Calvinism. Not a

6:11

lot of that made a lot of sense

6:15

to an 11 year old boy sitting in

6:15

the Pew, right, the expression,

6:19

the issues would just be

6:19

dropped. And everybody knew what

6:22

we were talking about. I did not

6:22

always know what we were talking

6:25

about. And I knew that Calvinism

6:25

was terrible. But as we drove

6:29

around town, I had never ever

6:29

seen a church building that had

6:35

a sign out front That said, the

6:35

first church of Calvinism. And

6:38

so I just didn't know exactly

6:38

who we were talking to. And a

6:42

lot of my friends, when I would

6:42

say you believe this, and this,

6:45

there's no What are you talking about? I don't believe that at all. I didn't understand where a

6:47

lot of that was going. I think

6:50

there was some shifts made in

6:50

the late 70s. Going into the

6:54

80s. Preaching began to be more

6:54

practical. And maybe a little

6:59

less a one sided debate in the

6:59

pulpit and the preacher is

7:02

debating a proposition in front

7:02

of the audience and proving

7:05

something that's wrong. That doesn't mean that there's not a place for that. And I do some of

7:07

that kind of preaching. I think

7:10

that's important to expose error

7:10

and false doctrine. But and this

7:14

is the judgment of an 11 year

7:14

old boy. So that's really worth

7:17

a lot. But maybe we were a

7:17

little long on showing how wrong

7:22

some systems of doctrines were.

7:22

And maybe we were a little short

7:26

on how to read your Bible,

7:26

right? How to be joyful, how to

7:30

pray, how to talk to your

7:30

neighbor, about the gospel, how

7:34

to have a good marriage. If I

7:34

had to say anything about the

7:37

change, that preaching is

7:37

certainly much more welcome.

7:42

Now. I think I could see a time

7:42

maybe in the 70s, where if

7:46

somebody had brought some of

7:46

those kinds of lessons in a

7:49

gospel meeting, for example,

7:49

maybe somebody would have said,

7:52

That's soft. That's not real

7:52

preaching. I think instead,

7:56

Brethren are welcoming that kind

7:56

of preaching a lot more and

7:59

seeing its importance in growing

7:59

disciples in a whole way, in not

8:05

just being doctrinally sound,

8:05

but being very deficient in

8:09

daily discipleship.

8:11

Yeah, I agree. You

8:11

talked a little bit about what's

8:15

happened with this idea of

8:15

digital discipleship, but it's

8:17

basically using online tools to

8:17

help spread God's word. What do

8:21

you think is the advantage here?

8:21

What's good about it?

8:24

I think the

8:24

digital tools that we have

8:26

before us today have a number of

8:26

significant advantages, one of

8:32

which is they're just very

8:32

inexpensive. And they are

8:36

accessible to everybody all the

8:36

time. So yeah, right. Yeah,

8:41

that's pandemic and even before

8:41

the pandemic, we were live

8:44

streaming our worship services,

8:44

primarily for the benefit of

8:48

some of our homebound folks, and

8:48

in doing some outreach with

8:52

that, but if I had, even maybe

8:52

10 years ago, said to the

8:56

elders, we need to televise our

8:56

worship services. What are you

9:03

looking at in terms of manpower,

9:03

equipment and cost? You're

9:08

talking about a production truck

9:08

and cameraman and 1000s and

9:13

1000s of dollars worth of

9:13

equipment? Not to mention, how

9:17

would we afford the air time, I

9:17

guess, in every community, on

9:22

Sunday morning, there's a couple

9:22

of local churches that have the

9:26

airtime bought on Sunday morning

9:26

on the local ABC affiliate. And

9:31

if we went down to ABC, of

9:31

course, here in Dallas, it would

9:35

be really, really expensive, but

9:35

even in a small community, that

9:38

still would be be prohibitively

9:38

expensive, and then again,

9:42

putting that on. So we've just

9:42

never been able to do anything

9:45

like that at all. The first

9:45

thing that we ever online stream

9:49

was a race forum that we did,

9:49

where we had some discussions

9:53

about the racial issues that are

9:53

racking this country. And we'd

9:57

work early stream that with an

9:57

iPhone, that Was clamped to a

10:01

tripod, we bought nothing,

10:01

somebody pulled a phone out of

10:05

their pocket, I think we maybe

10:05

bought a black box or two so

10:08

that we could tie the churches

10:08

sound system into that online

10:12

stream. But here we were going

10:12

online with very, very little

10:16

equipment expense and it was

10:16

going around the world. The

10:19

other great thing about that the

10:19

gatekeepers are gone. So if we

10:23

had gone to downtown Dallas to

10:23

channel a channel 11, and said,

10:27

We want to telecast Sunday

10:27

morning service we got the money

10:30

will buy. And so they would have

10:30

said no, that airtime has

10:33

already been bought up. Or if

10:33

the airtime had come available,

10:36

they probably still would have

10:36

said no, because of some of the

10:39

things that we would say, and so

10:39

forth causing controversy. And I

10:43

think about that, especially in

10:43

the book publishing business, if

10:46

you write a book, it can be the

10:46

best book in the whole world.

10:49

But 15 years ago, if the Big

10:49

Five publishers didn't read that

10:53

which even getting your

10:53

manuscript in the door was a

10:55

big, big challenge. If they

10:55

didn't read that and say, yeah,

10:58

we think we can sell this, your

10:58

book went nowhere. Now, anybody

11:02

with digital tools, can publish

11:02

their book, and get it out there

11:07

to the world. And people can

11:07

read that material and profit

11:11

and benefit from that material.

11:11

It's not even expensive. You

11:14

don't need a $500,000

11:14

letterpress offset printing

11:18

press to do that. Amazon has

11:18

them waiting for you. So there's

11:22

just a tremendous leveling of

11:22

the landscape, where anybody and

11:27

everybody can participate. And

11:27

get that content out to people

11:32

that it seems to me is one of

11:32

the most exciting parts of the

11:36

digital revolution. And maybe

11:36

the part that we're missing the

11:40

most when we don't participate.

11:40

Everybody else is which means

11:45

error is out there. Where's the

11:45

truth? If we don't right, join

11:49

in and get the truth out there?

11:49

Who's going to get the truth out

11:53

there? We need to we need to get

11:53

it together. And we need to get

11:56

online in every way possible.

11:56

Can you even imagine? Can you

12:01

think about the Apostle Paul, or

12:01

I'm gonna pop him in a time

12:06

machine. I'm bringing him from

12:06

Athens. And I'm sitting him down

12:10

here in Dallas, Texas. He's

12:10

looking around what is this?

12:14

What is that? And I explained to

12:14

him the World Wide Web, and how

12:17

we can preach the gospel 24.

12:17

Seven, around the world, to

12:24

everybody and anybody at almost

12:24

zero cost. Can you imagine what

12:30

the Apostle would have said, Oh,

12:30

he would have said, Give me two

12:35

of those Internet's right now.

12:35

That's why I'll take three,

12:39

let's get busy. And let's go.

12:41

Yeah, I completely agree with you. I think there's some amazing advantages here.

12:43

But we also lose something.

12:47

Well, what's the downside to these tools?

12:49

There is some

12:49

downsides. I think churches have

12:51

been a little reluctant because

12:51

of the amount of evil on the

12:54

internet. It's a little bit of

12:54

that we don't want to play in

12:58

that sandbox. Because there's

12:58

some bad things in the sandbox.

13:01

I think there are some bad things in the sandbox. I don't think there's any doubt about

13:03

that. But as I said, somebody

13:07

needs to climb in there and do

13:07

something constructive and do

13:09

something right and do something

13:09

truthful. I think especially

13:14

that that just goes times

13:14

eleventy bazillion, for young

13:18

people because there's so much

13:18

involved in the internet. And if

13:21

we're not on YouTube, and social

13:21

media and those kinds of things,

13:26

we're just missing that entire

13:26

generation. So we've got to be

13:31

there. The downside to this is

13:31

that you need to do it well. Or

13:38

it doesn't count. I'm afraid.

13:38

Some congregations have decided

13:42

as long as we have a website, it

13:42

doesn't matter. If it looks like

13:46

it was done with cranes on a

13:46

napkin, hey, we have a website,

13:50

and are not meeting the

13:50

standards of quality. We're

13:52

putting video up, hey, we're

13:52

where they are. We're part of

13:56

the digital revolution. Yes, you

13:56

are. But you are doing it so

14:00

poorly that no one wants to look

14:00

at what you have done. The other

14:04

downside, maybe even more

14:04

important is we come out of a

14:07

pandemic and and I hope and pray

14:07

that we are coming out of the

14:10

pandemic, the internet caters to

14:10

you. The internet is all about

14:15

you and what is convenient to

14:15

you. Oh, you weren't able to

14:19

watch your show on network

14:19

television on Wednesday nights

14:22

at 7pm. That's okay. We'll

14:22

stream it to you whenever you

14:27

want to watch it. Right? You

14:27

decide and control the internet.

14:33

All of our content as we're

14:33

pushing that out, meets a group

14:38

of people who are thinking, hey,

14:38

that's really cool. I'll look at

14:41

that later. I'll look at that on

14:41

my time. That's what makes

14:47

Netflix so pervasive. And that's

14:47

why blockbuster disappeared.

14:51

Because blockbuster said in

14:51

order to look at this movie, you

14:56

need to come down here and

14:56

browse 68 gazillion times. And

15:00

then you finally find one and

15:00

then you wait in line. And then

15:04

a high school aged employee

15:04

making minimum wage, who does

15:06

not care finally checks you out.

15:06

And you go home and you put this

15:11

in your video player and you can

15:11

watch this movie Netflix said,

15:14

you have to do any of that. You

15:14

can watch it when you want how

15:18

you want where you want, on your

15:18

phone, on your tablet, on your

15:21

laptop, throw it on your big

15:21

screen TV, your kids can be

15:25

watching it in the other room.

15:25

It's all about you, you you you

15:28

what is convenient for you.

15:28

blockbuster wasn't convenient on

15:32

a cold, rainy night, who wanted

15:32

to do that I don't want to drive

15:36

down there. And the movie that I

15:36

want probably has been checked

15:39

out already. Anyway. So now it's

15:39

all about you. And my concern is

15:45

that we may have some folks who

15:45

are going to say I'll do church

15:49

when I want to do church. Yeah.

15:49

And while online streaming is a

15:54

much better alternative than

15:54

nothing at all during a

15:58

Coronavirus pandemic. There are

15:58

some things that happen when

16:02

we're together that don't happen

16:02

when you're sitting on your

16:04

couch in your pajamas. And I am

16:04

concerned as we come out of

16:09

this, that there are going to be

16:09

some people who are going to

16:12

say, I'm not ever going back to

16:12

church, at least not on a

16:16

regular basis. I really like

16:16

this online streaming thing. I

16:20

like church on my pajamas. I

16:20

like church when I want to do

16:24

church. And when it's convenient

16:24

for me churches blockbuster, I'm

16:28

not doing that anymore. I'm

16:28

signing up for Netflix. In fact,

16:32

a Barna survey said that only

16:32

about 42% of millennials say

16:37

they prefer primarily in person

16:37

worship. So now you're looking

16:41

at about 68% of millennials who

16:41

are saying, I like it in my

16:46

home. That's a huge issue.

16:46

Because while there's some great

16:50

things about digital

16:50

discipleship and pushing content

16:53

out, and it's great to have more

16:53

stuff and digital magazines like

16:57

pressing on and, and blogs and

16:57

all of that. The question about

17:02

Sunday assembly is not a

17:02

question of what's convenient

17:06

for you. Sunday assembly is not

17:06

optional, I'll do that when I

17:11

want to do that how I want to do

17:11

that. That's when we have to

17:15

come together to do I'm afraid

17:15

coming out of the pandemic,

17:19

there may have to be a lot of

17:19

teaching about that with some

17:23

people who are pretty reluctant

17:23

to come to the building, not

17:26

because they're afraid they're

17:26

going to get sick, but because

17:28

they just don't like having to

17:28

make the drive get dressed and

17:31

show up.

17:31

I understand. And I

17:31

agree, I think one of the things

17:34

that's happened to us is, we've

17:34

gotten used to basically

17:37

learning the tools and the tools

17:37

are great, I'm not criticizing

17:40

the tools at all. But

17:40

Christianity becomes real when

17:44

somebody else is sitting in your

17:44

pew. And you have to learn to

17:46

live with that the rubber hits

17:46

the road when you are forced to

17:50

be in a room with other people

17:50

that think differently than you

17:53

do. Look, if you're at your

17:53

house, like you're talking about

17:57

watching a sermon, when it gets

17:57

boring, you turn it off, or you

18:00

fast forward or whatever, that's

18:00

when Christianity starts

18:03

catering to you. And God's God's

18:03

mandate all throughout his look,

18:09

you don't know what you need I

18:09

do, you really do need to be

18:13

with other people that aren't

18:13

like you and figure out how to

18:19

get along with them. online

18:19

tools don't do that very well. I

18:23

think you're right. online tools

18:23

do a great job of

18:26

individualizing an experience.

18:26

But they don't do a very good

18:30

job of making an experience that

18:30

is really a community that we

18:36

didn't control.

18:37

I agree with you

18:37

completely. I've talked for

18:40

example, when I've done some

18:40

preaching about our singing

18:42

together, that one of the great

18:42

things about our singing

18:45

together is that you don't get

18:45

to choose the songs we're

18:49

singing today. Which means

18:49

sometimes we sing my favorite

18:53

song. And sometimes that means

18:53

we sing that song that I can't

18:58

stand. Yeah. But in that I

18:58

learned to submit one to another

19:05

right? I learned it's not about

19:05

me. I learned to deny myself and

19:12

saying no any way. But what I'm

19:12

hearing, what I'm seeing is

19:18

people who say, Hey, I started

19:18

this guy's Bible class on

19:21

Wednesday night, and that really

19:21

wasn't going anywhere. That was

19:24

interesting to me. So I jumped

19:24

over and watch this other guy,

19:28

or I was watching the sermon on

19:28

Sunday, but that didn't really

19:31

work. So now I'm watching this

19:31

other guy. See how that's not

19:35

that's not a submitting. That's

19:35

not this isn't great for me.

19:39

I'll just sit through it anyway

19:39

and try to profit from it. It's

19:43

no it's about me. So kind of

19:43

like when I'm watching the NFL

19:46

on Sunday afternoon. If the game

19:46

gets out of hand, then I go

19:51

looking for a better game and

19:51

I'm hearing lots of people who

19:54

are looking for a better game,

19:54

but there is a great power when

19:59

the It's not just in the singing

19:59

either is it when the preacher

20:02

gets up and says, today, I'm

20:02

talking about this particular

20:06

passage, and I looked down at my

20:06

Bible, I think, yeah, I don't

20:09

see a lot there in that passage

20:09

for me. But But I'm physically

20:13

in the auditorium, I can't get

20:13

up and say, I'm gonna go find

20:16

somebody who's talking about

20:16

marriage today. I really wanted

20:18

to hear a sermon today. But no,

20:18

I'm stuck. But guess what

20:21

happens in that, as the preacher

20:21

is working through that passage.

20:26

And we're thinking about that

20:26

passage, always. Because the

20:30

Word of God is living and active

20:30

and sharper than any two edged

20:33

sword, guess what, there was

20:33

something there for me, maybe

20:36

not on marriage, maybe even on

20:36

my spirit, and on my attitude,

20:39

and my selfishness and my pride.

20:39

And I'm brought under the Word

20:43

of God. And as I'm coming out,

20:43

I'm saying, I am glad I was here

20:47

today. And my presence

20:47

encouraged all those other

20:51

people who looked over at me.

20:51

And instead of seeing an empty

20:54

Pew, there I was in my Bible,

20:54

and I was worshiping and they

20:57

were worshiping, and we were

20:57

together, completely cannot have

21:02

that. When we're streaming

21:02

online. I don't know, Kenny, if

21:06

you're watching, sitting on your

21:06

couch, or if you're gonna watch

21:10

later, or if you watched at all,

21:10

one of the huge questions right

21:14

now about online streaming, and

21:14

everybody's working with this is

21:18

how do you count views? How many

21:18

people were watching, right? We

21:21

don't know. The Facebook metrics

21:21

are just abysmal. They give you

21:26

a view, for anybody who looks at

21:26

a video for longer than three

21:29

seconds, I would like to think

21:29

that I'm an effective preacher,

21:32

but I probably need more than

21:32

three seconds of your attention

21:36

to get the word of God across.

21:36

So you count it as a view on

21:39

three sides. And the other

21:39

thing, of course, is lots of

21:43

people are sitting in a room

21:43

with their family. So that's one

21:45

view. But there are five people

21:45

watching. So yeah, there's

21:49

discussion of multipliers and

21:49

how to drill down deeper and get

21:53

better engagement statistics.

21:53

But in the end, we simply don't

21:57

know how many people are

21:57

watching and engaging. Whereas

22:02

on a Sunday morning, we can

22:02

count heads, I don't know for

22:06

sure that all of those people in

22:06

a Pew that Sunday morning were

22:10

engaged, some of those people

22:10

may have been sleeping, or may

22:13

have been texting or so forth.

22:13

But at least you were physically

22:16

in the room, we can get a hard

22:16

count on that. Which online

22:20

streaming can't give us anything

22:20

even beginning to approximate

22:23

that.

22:24

Yeah, you're talking about the analytics problem there. I think just

22:25

going back a little bit, not too

22:28

far. I think one of the things

22:28

you kind of bring up is this, so

22:31

much of Christianity is learning

22:31

how to disagree with people. And

22:34

one of the things that I talked

22:34

about in my classes is

22:37

disagreement is the beginning of

22:37

knowledge. If we all agree about

22:40

exactly everything, nobody's

22:40

learning anything. The thing

22:43

about disagreement, learning how

22:43

to civilly disagree with people

22:47

that are around you, it's an

22:47

art, every group of people that

22:51

wants to do anything worthwhile,

22:51

has to figure out how to

22:55

negotiate to people have

22:55

different ideas on how to do

22:58

something. And I think really,

22:58

when you put them all in a

23:01

building at a time, I mean,

23:01

let's face it, we have had

23:06

debates for a long time, when

23:06

are we going to meet? How long

23:10

should we meet? I think one of

23:10

the things that we have

23:12

sometimes done well, and

23:12

oftentimes not done well, is

23:16

give feedback to people that are

23:16

trying to feed us. And again,

23:20

that's a place where we may

23:20

disagree. And that disagreement,

23:25

learning how to do it well,

23:25

learning how to do it

23:28

respectfully, is something we

23:28

don't do when it's voluntary,

23:33

I think I would

23:33

agree with with much of that I

23:35

think the art of disagreeing

23:35

agreeably has largely been lost

23:39

in our society, we're polarizing

23:39

our culture. And so if you don't

23:45

vote the way I vote, it's not

23:45

just that you have a different

23:48

approach or a different

23:48

background or different

23:51

priorities. You are an evil and

23:51

awful person, and maybe not even

23:57

an American. I think about for

23:57

example, Ellen DeGeneres, with

24:01

whom I would have significant

24:01

and serious differences about

24:04

lifestyle choices and morality.

24:04

She was seen at a Dallas Cowboy

24:08

game in one of the luxury suites

24:08

with George Bush. And since her

24:14

base is certainly a lot more

24:14

left and liberal than George

24:17

Bush, people just lost their

24:17

minds. And she tried to explain

24:21

that we can be kind to people

24:21

who we disagree with. And that

24:26

went nowhere. She really had a

24:26

hard time with that. I don't

24:29

find myself being sympathetic to

24:29

Ellen DeGeneres very often, but

24:32

I felt some sympathy for her.

24:32

Because she was trying to say we

24:36

can agree to disagree agreeably

24:36

and in a local church

24:39

arrangement, in a marriage in

24:39

any relationship. We'll have to

24:44

learn to do that because this is

24:44

hard to hear. We are sinful and

24:49

prideful people. And the only

24:49

reason there would never be any

24:53

disagreement, at least for me,

24:53

is if everybody did everything

24:56

105% of the time exactly the way

24:56

I wanted it to If everybody did

25:00

to suit me, then I just be happy

25:00

all the time. But guess what?

25:04

Some people here at Westside

25:04

don't realize that I'm right all

25:07

the time, and that I should be

25:07

in charge of everything. I've

25:10

said this often about Bible

25:10

classes, if we ask questions in

25:14

Bible class, and everybody

25:14

immediately sticks their hand in

25:17

the air, we're not asking very

25:17

good questions, right? The best

25:20

questions are the questions were

25:20

when the teacher asked, there is

25:24

a long pause, because now we're

25:24

being made to think and we

25:29

haven't thought about the

25:29

passage in that way, or the

25:32

challenge of the passage in that

25:32

way. And we're not sure what we

25:34

think about that. Then the other

25:34

hand comes up. And someone

25:37

challenges that and says, Why

25:37

I'm not sure about that. What

25:40

about this, instead of serving

25:40

the Passover, to the real

25:43

questions, as we rehearse the

25:43

company line,

25:46

I completely agree.

25:46

I think one of the things that

25:48

the promise of the internet was,

25:48

we would be able to share our

25:53

disagreements, we would also be

25:53

able to get so many different

25:57

points of view. But the reality

25:57

of the Internet has turned into,

26:01

we find these echo chambers,

26:01

where we find everybody who

26:04

agrees with us substantially.

26:04

And now, we don't really have

26:09

any substantive dialogue. What

26:09

we have is a bunch of other

26:12

people that look pretty much

26:12

like us. And we don't seek out

26:17

anybody. I mean, one of the

26:17

things that I talked about a

26:19

little bit earlier, I appreciate

26:19

being able to see somebody

26:23

else's faith and how they would

26:23

characterize it, not how I would

26:28

second hand guess what their

26:28

faith is like?

26:30

Yes, I do think in

26:30

most of the religious

26:34

discussions that I have been in,

26:34

either very quickly, people

26:38

learn that the silver bullet

26:38

passage that we thought

26:41

completely destroys this entire

26:41

way of thinking, they've

26:47

actually thought about that

26:47

passage, and they have an

26:49

answer, and it may not be a very

26:49

good answer. But right, they're

26:52

not completely stupid. And all

26:52

of a sudden here is someone who

26:58

is advocating faith, only

26:58

salvation, and I read Acts 238.

27:02

And their face falls and their

27:02

mouth drops open. And they say,

27:05

well, I've never seen that verse

27:05

before. Would you baptize me

27:07

right now? If that's not how

27:07

that works, that even if people

27:12

are mistaken in their beliefs,

27:12

they have something they're

27:16

telling themselves about those

27:16

beliefs, right? And we have to

27:19

interact with that. And we need

27:19

to interact with that in a

27:21

respectful kind of fashion. Yes,

27:21

I'm glad that we're talking

27:25

about this as we come to the

27:25

holiday season, because this is

27:28

going to be a time when a lot of

27:28

people are thinking about Jesus.

27:32

And they are thinking about the

27:32

birth of Jesus. And a lot of

27:36

what people are thinking about

27:36

the birth of Jesus just isn't

27:38

right. But I'm afraid we've

27:38

engaged with that in her

27:42

rhythmically awkward and

27:42

abrasive kinds of ways that have

27:46

just been really off putting to

27:46

people, rather than as Paul did

27:51

in Acts 17, building on some

27:51

common ground, and trying to

27:55

reach people where they are, and

27:55

then help them take another step

27:58

or two in their thinking. We

27:58

just put people down and we slam

28:02

people and say mean things about

28:02

their very dearly held beliefs.

28:06

And then we sit together on

28:06

Sunday, and the preacher

28:09

preaches on evangelism. And we

28:09

just say, Well, you know,

28:12

nobody's interested anyway. And

28:12

I tried a little bit of that

28:15

this week. And it didn't go very

28:15

far. Because people don't love

28:17

the truth. We've got to do

28:17

better than that. We've got to

28:20

do better than that. And we're

28:20

coming to a season where a lot

28:24

of people are going to be

28:24

talking about Jesus, even if

28:26

they're mistaken in many of

28:26

their concepts. Shouldn't we be

28:29

happy about that? Would we

28:29

rather people be talking and

28:32

celebrating the devil? Let's try

28:32

to reach out to where people

28:36

are. This is a great season of

28:36

opportunity for us, if we'll

28:40

look at it in the right kind of way.

28:42

Yeah, I completely

28:42

agree. I think one of the things

28:44

that strikes me is Jesus was

28:44

harsh to the people who should

28:47

have done better. But he was

28:47

always most generous to people

28:50

who shouldn't. We can talk about

28:50

how many Pharisees he actually

28:53

praises versus how many Roman

28:53

Centurions he praises. God gives

28:57

grace to people who are looking

28:57

for answers and are willing to

29:02

apply the answers to their lives.

29:04

God's job is to

29:04

get people around the gospel.

29:08

And God is very, very good at

29:08

that. It can mean parking a

29:14

preacher in the middle of the

29:14

desert as an Ethiopian man goes

29:17

rolling by but God can do that.

29:17

The Breakdown, I'm afraid, is

29:22

not on God's in the problem

29:22

comes when the Ethiopian man is

29:26

rolling by and I'm berating him,

29:26

because he called me Reverend,

29:30

and I'm spending 10 minutes of

29:30

the conversation, straightening

29:33

him out on religious titles. And

29:33

by the time I'm done, he's so

29:37

beat down and afraid and

29:37

intimidated. He doesn't go ahead

29:40

and ask me. Could you help me

29:40

understand what Isaiah 53 is all

29:44

about? Yeah, I'm afraid we've

29:44

been very quick on the draw, and

29:48

sometimes very, very militant.

29:48

And that is not as successful a

29:54

tactic I'm convinced today, as

29:54

it might have been in times

29:58

past. If it ever was a

29:58

successful tactic in times fast.

30:03

Yeah. And I would

30:03

agree with that. And I don't

30:06

think it's ever been that

30:06

successful. One of the

30:08

advantages of these online tools

30:08

is the abundance of material

30:13

that's out there. The challenge

30:13

is not all of its good. I think

30:18

that cafeteria style of worship

30:18

is different. But when you're

30:23

looking to grow your own

30:23

spirituality, I think it makes a

30:28

lot of sense to look at, and see

30:28

what's available to you to grow

30:32

in the direction that you think you need some help

30:34

in your personal

30:34

devotion. Absolutely. There is

30:38

every opportunity to grow and to

30:38

grow dramatically, by drinking

30:43

from lots of different wells,

30:43

you certainly want to be careful

30:46

and exercise discretion and

30:46

wisdom with that, of course, but

30:50

there is so much good material

30:50

on the internet. And you can

30:55

take advantage of that, and be a

30:55

better disciple, but in my local

31:00

arrangement, when I'm sitting in

31:00

a Bible class, even if that's

31:04

not the best Bible class that

31:04

I've ever been a part of, my

31:07

obligation is not to pull up my

31:07

phone, and start surfing and

31:13

find me something better to

31:13

occupy my time. But to be here

31:17

and to help the situation and to

31:17

help the circumstance. You said

31:20

earlier about getting good

31:20

feedback. I'm afraid some of the

31:24

preaching that is being done

31:24

today. That's not very good. Is

31:29

the brethren just getting what

31:29

they deserve? Because they're

31:32

going out the back door pumping

31:32

the preachers hand and saying

31:34

fine, listen, brother Smith, fine lesson brother Smith, brother Jones shirt, appreciate

31:37

you thank you for preaching

31:39

first today, and brother Smith's

31:39

going home, but Jones going

31:42

home. And his head's getting

31:42

bigger by the week, even though

31:45

he's not really engaging with

31:45

the word he's not seriously

31:49

studying. He's not preparing. So

31:49

Saturday night during a football

31:53

game. He's pulling up some tired

31:53

outline off of the internet. And

31:57

he's retreading that a little

31:57

bit warming it up a little bit

32:01

for Sunday morning. And it's

32:01

terrible. I'm sorry. No, I'm not

32:05

sorry. It is terrible. And

32:05

somebody needs to say to him

32:09

that wasn't very effective, that

32:09

has to be done kindly. And that

32:13

has to be done in the right

32:13

spirit. And I as somebody who

32:16

does that preaching thing, the

32:16

place to do that is not in the

32:19

foyer on Sunday morning, five

32:19

minutes after I've got out of a

32:22

pulpit, I'm hot, right? I'm, I'm

32:22

lathered. There's a lot going

32:27

on. I'm trying to greet visitors

32:27

and so forth. And this isn't a

32:29

great time for a critique. But

32:29

if a man is missing the mark on

32:32

a regular basis, and I, I'd be

32:32

the first to say, this means me,

32:36

I'm pointing at me, for someone

32:36

to say let's get coffee this

32:40

week. And let's talk a little

32:40

bit. And they sit down. And they

32:45

say, hey, this and this, and

32:45

this happened on Sunday. But I

32:49

didn't really understand what

32:49

that was about, or where was

32:53

your application Sunday? That

32:53

was some really good information

32:57

about that passage. I could tell

32:57

you really studied the passage.

33:01

But then when I got ready for

33:01

you to tell me what to do with

33:04

this, where was the So what,

33:04

what was I supposed to take with

33:07

me out of the church building?

33:07

Where were we just becoming

33:10

better at Bible trivia? Or are

33:10

we supposed to go live this

33:14

message, that kind of feedback,

33:14

stings and hurts, because every

33:19

time as preachers preach, we

33:19

want to think that it's the best

33:23

thing that's happened since Paul

33:23

climbed up the hill and Athens.

33:26

But that kind of feedback can be

33:26

really, really helpful, so that

33:31

the preaching does get better,

33:31

and it needs to get better. I'm

33:36

concerned about that. In a time

33:36

when people are able to just so

33:40

to speak, change channels and go

33:40

find a preacher. Not necessarily

33:44

that just tickles their fancy,

33:44

but a preacher who is doing good

33:48

work. And who is bringing the

33:48

Word of God with force and power

33:51

and with application into

33:51

people's lives, there's going to

33:55

be a lot of people when they

33:55

have to go back to in person

33:58

services. And brother lazy, who

33:58

is not doing that, there's going

34:03

to be some friction, there's

34:03

going to be some problems. And

34:05

there's going to be some people who say, I'm not getting anything out of this, I'm going

34:07

to stay home and watch this

34:10

other guy who really can preach

34:10

the word, because I'm trying to

34:14

be a serious disciple. We're

34:14

gonna see some of that you just

34:17

wait.

34:18

I think you're exactly right. I think we've been exposed to a lot of people

34:20

that, quite frankly, are very,

34:23

very talented. You talk about

34:23

laziness. And I do think that

34:26

there's a big problem that some

34:26

people have basically been in

34:29

the game for so long, and they

34:29

just don't have the passion for

34:33

it anymore. I think there's a large group of

34:34

people that have gotten the

34:39

generic comment that is

34:39

uplifting, but not very

34:43

critical. Quite frankly, that's

34:43

the group I worry about the

34:46

most. I think it's the guy who's

34:46

up in the pulpit. He's doing his

34:51

dead level best. And his dead

34:51

level best still isn't very

34:54

good. And there are things that

34:54

he could do better, but he's not

34:58

getting that feedback.

34:59

What was It's hard

34:59

for me to speak to every place

35:01

in every circumstance and

35:01

situation. You're right. But I

35:04

think you're correct that that

35:04

is part of, for example, a good

35:08

eldership. I don't expect the

35:08

average person in the Pew to

35:13

understand principles of

35:13

communication at such a level,

35:16

that they would be able to give

35:16

really quality feedback. Most

35:22

people, first of all, are

35:22

reluctant to say anything

35:25

negative at all. But even if

35:25

they were having coffee with a

35:30

preacher, they wouldn't be

35:30

exactly sure what to say, even

35:33

if they don't like the preaching. It's kind of like, when you watch a television

35:35

show, somebody will say, I don't

35:39

like that show. And you say, why

35:39

don't you like that shows? I

35:42

don't know, I just don't like

35:42

that. There's something not

35:45

right there. But most people

35:45

don't have the understanding of

35:48

the communication process or the

35:48

formal training, like you have

35:51

Kenny to work through. Here's

35:51

where it's being missed. Here's

35:54

where things are jumping the

35:54

track, but a local church

35:58

eldership needs to be thinking

35:58

through those kinds of things.

36:03

So that they can say, Hey, this

36:03

is what's missing, the kind of

36:08

thing that the preacher can then

36:08

say, Oh, I can now do more of

36:12

this. And maybe what I should

36:12

say, to myself and into my my

36:16

comrades in preaching is, we

36:16

just need to start that process

36:20

ourselves, we know that we're

36:20

not going to get tangible

36:24

feedback most of the time. So

36:24

what I need to do is I need to

36:30

immerse myself in learning, good

36:30

preaching, what is good

36:36

preaching, I need to be reading

36:36

about that I need to be reading

36:39

and preaching books, I need to

36:39

take charge of that myself in in

36:44

anything else that comes my way

36:44

there will be a bonus on top of

36:48

that. But I don't want to just

36:48

be content to download an

36:52

outline Saturday afternoon,

36:52

because I know the brethren will

36:56

go out and put my hand and say

36:56

nice things because they just

36:59

they're nice. The the brethren

36:59

here Westside are just as nice

37:02

as they could possibly be. And

37:02

they don't just say nice things.

37:05

And I'll just pat myself on the

37:05

back and believe my press

37:08

clippings, that's foolishness.

37:08

preaching is far too important

37:13

to let that kind of thing go on.

37:13

It needs to be in each

37:17

preachers, mind and heart, the

37:17

most important thing that

37:21

they're going to be doing this

37:21

week, and we want to do it at

37:23

the highest possible level.

37:23

Every single time we get in the

37:29

pulpit, we want to change men

37:29

and women's eternal destiny by

37:34

the power of God's Word. And

37:34

that has to be done right?

37:39

This is a

37:39

completely unfair question. I

37:42

need you to pull out your

37:42

crystal ball. And I need you to

37:45

tell me what worship looks like

37:45

after COVID

37:48

Well, the crystal

37:48

ball is a little foggy today.

37:51

And I'm thinking about what it

37:51

says in the Old Testament about

37:54

divination. And I'm wondering if

37:54

the brethren here Westside, if

37:57

they listen to this podcast are

37:57

going to stone me with

38:00

songbooks? There's, I think, a

38:00

couple of things are going to

38:06

happen here, based on where

38:06

people are in their thinking

38:12

about the pandemic, some people

38:12

will see the pandemic as an

38:16

interruption. And as soon as we

38:16

either get a widely used

38:22

vaccine, or the virus mutates

38:22

itself off the planet, at some

38:28

point, things are going to go

38:28

back to quote unquote, normal

38:33

and the masking mandates and the

38:33

social distancing all when all

38:36

that's gone, some people are

38:36

gonna breathe a deep sigh of

38:39

relief and say, I'm so glad

38:39

that's over. And then they're

38:42

just going to do what they've

38:42

always done. And so the answer

38:46

to your question is, it will

38:46

look at whatever point that is,

38:49

let's say that's, let's, let's

38:49

just be optimistic. Let's say

38:53

that's January 1 of 2021. And

38:53

everything is going great. And

38:57

they've distributed the vaccines

38:57

and they all work and everybody

38:59

took two and everything just

38:59

great January 1 2021. It's over.

39:02

Don't worry about it anymore.

39:02

Those churches are going to look

39:05

exactly like they looked on

39:05

January 1 2020. Because the

39:09

pandemic didn't really get here

39:09

going till about March. I think

39:12

that's the easiest answer, those

39:12

churches are going to go back

39:15

and do what they've always done.

39:15

I think that's also a tremendous

39:19

mistake. And I think churches

39:19

that do that, they will pay for

39:24

it. There has been not an

39:24

interruption, but a disruption.

39:30

And I would illustrate that

39:30

difference by maybe talking

39:33

about how Apple disrupted the

39:33

music industry. I can remember

39:37

when you went down to the record

39:37

store and you bought a flat

39:40

piece of black vinyl, and it

39:40

only had two songs that you

39:43

really wanted, but you had to

39:43

buy the whole album to get those

39:45

two songs. That's how that

39:45

worked. And then Apple came

39:48

along and said for 99 cents you

39:48

can have the song you want and

39:51

then Pandora and Spotify have

39:51

built even on top of that, and I

39:55

don't know if you've noticed but

39:55

the flat black pieces of vinyl

39:57

or even the flat small pieces of

39:57

Silver called a compact disc.

40:01

All of that went away. That

40:01

wasn't an interruption in the

40:04

music industry thought it was.

40:04

And they wanted to say, when

40:08

this fad goes away, we'll go

40:08

back to press and records and

40:11

press and compact disc. It

40:11

didn't go away, it was a

40:14

complete change in the business.

40:14

And that goes exactly the same

40:18

way for the books, people were

40:18

buying books at bookstores and

40:22

Barnes and Noble was building on

40:22

bigger and faster. And then

40:25

along came Jeff Bezos and Amazon

40:25

and said, we'll drop a book onto

40:28

your electronic device in the

40:28

next 60 seconds. And it's never

40:31

been the same. And if you don't

40:31

like reading on a Kindle, we'll

40:34

drop the book on your doorstep

40:34

by the morning, and it's never

40:37

been the same, and it's never

40:37

going to be the same. And Barnes

40:40

and Noble is having all kinds of

40:40

financial problems because they

40:43

keep waiting for people to get

40:43

tired of this fad called Amazon.

40:47

Well, guess what? That's never

40:47

going to happen. And if churches

40:50

think that after a year or

40:50

longer of digital online church,

40:57

we can just pick up and go back

40:57

to the way it was. We're just

41:02

kidding ourselves and churches

41:02

that do that will they're going

41:07

to suffer like Barnes and Noble

41:07

is suffering, because things

41:11

have changed. It's not an

41:11

interruption, Kenny. It's a

41:15

disruption. And we'll have to do

41:15

some things differently.

41:19

I completely agree.

41:19

I think one of the things, I

41:22

think you would probably agree

41:22

with this, but I don't think

41:25

it's they might want to go back

41:25

to business as usual. I don't

41:29

think that's going to be their

41:29

choice. People have seen extreme

41:32

value in some of the abundance

41:32

that's here. And I think anybody

41:36

that decides, you know, we just

41:36

don't want to participate in

41:38

that. I think they're going to

41:38

miss out on a lot of people that

41:41

they could absolutely reach.

41:42

There's been too

41:42

much complete agreement in this

41:44

podcast, maybe I would disagree

41:44

by saying Never underestimate

41:47

the stubbornness of brethren.

41:47

And all this digital stuff. I

41:52

know churches that are still

41:52

struggling to get anything

41:54

online at all. I think as soon

41:54

as they can stop having to fool

41:58

with all of that some church are

41:58

going to stop or at least

42:02

regulate that to the very second

42:02

level. I know here at Westside,

42:07

I think we're pretty innovative.

42:07

And I think we're pretty in tune

42:11

with trying to use new tools and

42:11

so forth. online streaming was

42:15

not a very big blip on our

42:15

radar. We were doing that. But

42:21

as I said, primarily for people

42:21

who are sick and shut in. Yeah,

42:25

we were we were offering that.

42:25

But that was not we're not doing

42:28

that at a high level. If it

42:28

didn't operate this week. Well,

42:32

you know, you probably should

42:32

have come to church anyway. So

42:35

not very significant. Not very

42:35

important. Coming on the other

42:39

side of this, we now have

42:39

learned a lot of things about

42:43

online streaming, and about how

42:43

to do it better. But more than

42:46

anything about how important it

42:46

is and not just for somebody

42:50

who's sick or shut in. Yeah,

42:50

we're not going back. Now, that

42:54

doesn't mean that we're just

42:54

going to continue to do online

42:57

streaming. We've been in person

42:57

since August, and will hopefully

43:00

our in person continues to grow

43:00

as as the restrictions are

43:03

dropped. But even when it's all

43:03

gone, we still want to do online

43:07

streaming at the highest

43:07

possible level. Because we have

43:11

learned there is tremendous good

43:11

in this. So it's a huge blip on

43:16

our radar now and it's going to

43:16

stay that way because of where

43:22

people are. In fact, I would be

43:22

willing to argue where people

43:25

were even before the pandemic

43:25

crisis is just an accelerator.

43:30

There. There were people who

43:30

were struggling with going to

43:33

church three times a week before

43:33

the Coronavirus showed up. And

43:39

we need to think more about what

43:39

to do about that besides just

43:42

yell at them and how to meet

43:42

them. We're a Metroplex church,

43:47

we have people who are driving a

43:47

long ways to get to church on a

43:49

Wednesday night, is that working

43:49

during a school year, for

43:53

example, somebody's driving 3045

43:53

minutes in traffic, straight

43:57

after work. They haven't even

43:57

eaten dinner, they come come to

44:00

Bible class, a lot of good

44:00

things about that. But what

44:03

about that person if they can't

44:03

get the Bible class? What about

44:05

that person? If they're

44:05

concerned about their kids being

44:09

up late in the next day's a

44:09

school day? That's a huge

44:11

concern among young parents

44:11

today. What are we doing about

44:16

that? I think we're thinking a

44:16

lot more about digital content,

44:20

because I'm not as concerned at

44:20

all about whether somebody

44:24

watches my Wednesday night Bible

44:24

class at seven o'clock Wednesday

44:27

night, or if they don't watch it

44:27

till Thursday morning at 10.

44:30

That's not a concern to me. My

44:30

concern is they watch the class

44:34

and got the goods. Now, that's

44:34

not an option on Sunday. I got

44:37

to say that again. That's not an

44:37

option on Monday. We've got a

44:40

Greg together. But Wednesday

44:40

night, the key there is to get

44:45

the content out if you need to

44:45

stream that content to get that

44:48

content to more people than we

44:48

need to stream that content in a

44:51

church that says no, you'd

44:51

better be there Wednesday night

44:56

or you don't get the goodies is

44:56

a church that's failing its

44:58

members and is going To fail,

45:00

I completely agree

45:00

I, you open a lot of issues that

45:05

mark, I'm afraid we're probably

45:05

going to have to talk about

45:07

another time, I think one of the

45:07

things that, that you're kind of

45:11

bringing up there is is the

45:11

equation of you haven't been to

45:15

every service, therefore, you must not be a very good Christian.

45:18

I'm preaching this

45:18

year through the Beatitudes. And

45:20

so the plan for next year is to

45:20

preach the rest of the Sermon on

45:23

the Mount, and the emphasis

45:23

there is going to be on what

45:25

discipleship does, because a lot

45:25

of our definition of

45:28

discipleship is very, very

45:28

building centric, come in this

45:32

building and do stuff. And

45:32

that's what makes you a

45:35

disciple. And if you're not

45:35

coming to the building and doing

45:37

stuff, you're not a very good

45:37

disciple. Well, my mom is going

45:40

through chemotherapy, for

45:40

cancer, and she hasn't been in

45:43

this building since March. But I

45:43

think she's still a pretty good

45:46

disciple. We need a better

45:46

definition of discipleship, we

45:51

need a better understanding of

45:51

what that is, yes, it does

45:53

include some things that a

45:53

church building, if you can get

45:55

there, I understand about that.

45:55

And we'll talk about some of

45:57

those things. Jesus talks about

45:57

some of those things. When

46:00

somebody says, Kenny, he's a

46:00

faithful Christian, you know

46:03

what that means. And I know what

46:03

that means. That means he goes

46:07

to the building three times a

46:07

week, that definition got

46:10

completely destroyed this year.

46:10

And maybe that's a good thing.

46:14

Maybe God finally got tired of

46:14

churchianity and said, let's try

46:20

something to get people you

46:20

know, in Acts, chapter eight,

46:22

that persecution, move the

46:22

disciples out of Jerusalem, into

46:26

that go into all the world thing

46:26

that Jesus wanted, maybe one of

46:30

the it's hard to say good things

46:30

about a pandemic. But if any

46:34

good thing could come out of

46:34

this, maybe if we could get out

46:37

of building entity and into

46:37

church entity, out of church

46:40

entity and into Christianity,

46:40

that will have been a very, very

46:44

good thing.

46:45

I completely agree.

46:45

I am my podcast by saying be

46:49

good and do good. What is good?

46:51

Well, there are

46:51

probably lots of good answers to

46:54

that Kenny, Conan the Barbarian

46:54

said good is to crush your

46:57

enemies, see them driven before

46:57

you and to hear the lamentation

46:59

of their women. And when Ohio

46:59

State Buckeyes take the field

47:04

tomorrow, I hope that they are

47:04

good. Coffee is good. I have a

47:09

new grandbaby, grandchildren are

47:09

good. But if you want to know

47:12

what is good, God is good. My

47:12

favorite passage in all of the

47:16

Scriptures is Psalm 30 480.

47:16

Taste and see that the Lord is

47:22

good.

47:23

Mark, if somebody wanted to get ahold of you, how could they do that?

47:26

Well, I'm on

47:26

Facebook. You can find me on

47:28

Facebook, do some Bible reading

47:28

stuff. They're on Facebook, and

47:33

Westside Church has a Facebook

47:33

page and we stream our stuff

47:36

through our Facebook page on

47:36

Sundays and Wednesdays, contact

47:39

me through just christians.com

47:39

the Westside Church of Christ

47:42

website. There's email links,

47:42

there would be I'm on Twitter,

47:47

Mark 44. Roberts, you can

47:47

contact me through there. So all

47:51

those usual avenues, there's

47:51

opportunity to contact him to

47:55

talk further with me.

47:57

And pressing on

47:59

and press. Yes,

47:59

pressing on magazine.com is an

48:02

opportunity, really a great, you

48:02

talk about the good things that

48:06

have come with the internet. The

48:06

biggest difficulty with with

48:11

mailing a magazine is is the

48:11

piece printing, postage and

48:15

paper, they all cost a lot of

48:15

money. But digital pixels aren't

48:19

very expensive. And email stamps

48:19

are really cheap. And we can

48:22

send you a digital journal once

48:22

a month with just great writing

48:27

from Warren Berkeley and Roy

48:27

Moore and Rusty Miller, and

48:31

Danny Ward, and Wilson Adams and

48:31

just all kinds of great stuff.

48:35

And we can send that you for $10

48:35

a year right onto your digital

48:38

device. Well, Mark, I

48:39

sure appreciate you

48:39

doing this for me, man. Well,

48:41

Kenny, I

48:42

appreciate the

48:42

opportunity very, very much and

48:44

always good to think about some

48:44

things that are challenging us

48:48

and what we're doing about those

48:48

challenges. I appreciate your

48:50

work and appreciate this podcast. Thanks for the chance to be on.

48:53

I hope you enjoyed

48:53

this conversation with Mark. I

48:56

agree the shift to digital tools

48:56

does represent a disruption. And

49:00

I also agree we need to take

49:00

advantage of the crash course

49:03

we've all gone through to make

49:03

these things work. Also, this

49:07

was just a fun conversation for

49:07

me. I hope that comes through.

49:11

Mark, thanks for your insights.

49:11

Next week, I have a conversation

49:15

with Edwin Crozier. If Mark was

49:15

an introduction, Edwin was a

49:18

revelation. I've lived within 20

49:18

miles of Edwin for about a dozen

49:22

years now. But this is the first

49:22

time I think I've ever had a

49:25

real conversation with him. And

49:25

I'm kicking myself that we

49:28

hadn't talked sooner. So until

49:28

next week, let's be good and do

49:32

good.