0:02

We know how to get people strong, and

0:05

those results are really never dental.

0:07

We have a specific method of thinking

0:09

through what movements and why

0:11

and how and with blocks method

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and a client's hard work and consistency,

0:16

we get a predictable result every

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time. You get stronger. Jesse

0:21

Meakim, a longtime client of Block,

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has developed something similar, it's

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ynab. You need a budget. A

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method for thinking about your spending.

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It also has proven results and

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a lot of block coaches and clients are

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also yNab

0:37

fans, Jesse. Thanks for coming on the show. Tell

0:39

us a little bit about yNab. Yeah,

0:41

absolutely. Thanks for having Matt. So a lot of

0:44

your clients have broken out of the cycle of

0:46

general exercising that leads

0:48

nowhere. And why NAV essentially does

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the same thing. It teaches you four rules to help

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nowhere. So this is not about

0:59

spending less, cutting back, timing

1:01

the bell. It's about spending intentionally. So

1:03

I've been to your gym, at your house. Yes.

1:06

And I know that you know how to spend intentionally

1:08

because I think you have one of the nicest home gyms in

1:10

the country. I appreciate, well, coming

1:12

from you, that legitimately means something.

1:14

And you haven't even been since I got the

1:16

upgrades. So You gotta come back.

1:18

Yes. But I do coach Rikido, and so I got

1:20

to see him. That's

1:20

true. I need to get to use the equipment. And so as soon as

1:22

I saw the upgrades, I was like, cool. I got fun

1:24

stuff to program down. So right.

1:27

I love it. A lot of budget type programs

1:29

are about like really tightening down the belt

1:31

and really being strict and it's white knuckle discipline

1:33

and it's probably not long term sustainable. One

1:36

thing I love about why now is it is long term

1:38

sustainable. It is about spending intentionally

1:41

putting your to

1:42

work. You half dollars to put to work,

1:44

you get to choose where they work. Yeah. Absolutely.

1:47

So when you walk into the gym, you

1:49

do so with intention. And what

1:51

you've described is someone just managing their

1:53

money the exact same way. I wanna have

1:55

your clients imagine having conversations

1:57

with their another where they are

1:59

aspirational instead of accusatory, where

2:02

they have a pile of money waiting for

2:04

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2:06

of bills waiting for the money. I mean, imagine

2:09

being able to just spend guilt free

2:11

and this is all all possible. It's just

2:13

like in strength training that you've taught me over the

2:15

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2:17

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2:19

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2:54

I know I'll just say and Andrew

2:56

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2:58

had my bank get bought by another bank and they

3:00

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3:02

to get on and do the same thing. It's been a huge

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3:21

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5:16

You're listening to barbell logic.

5:17

The podcast where we talk about what it means

5:19

to experienced strength and

5:21

how you can use simple, hard, and

5:23

effective strategies in training and

5:25

nutrition to improve your

5:27

life. It starts with meeting you where

5:30

you are right now in finding

5:32

lasting solutions. Welcome

5:34

to the show.

5:46

Boy, everybody. I am CJ

5:48

Gotcha, director of the Barbie Academy where

5:50

passionatelifters and aspiring strength

5:52

coaches grow their knowledge and skill.

5:55

With me is Nikki Sims,

5:57

the chief experience officer and

5:59

exclusive coach at

6:00

Barbeologic. How are you doing today?

6:03

I'm pretty good, man. Pretty good. One of

6:05

those high friction technology days again.

6:08

High friction technology days.

6:10

That is Yeah. That's a

6:12

good start. That's gonna be in my vocabulary.

6:15

How are you this morning? I

6:17

am doing fantastic, actually.

6:20

We had a good time. We took our toddler deli into

6:22

the Safari park yesterday, which

6:24

was a It's rad. A lot of fun.

6:26

Yeah. And then I'm prepping for a a

6:28

big endurance event. It's a a

6:30

twenty four hour event ish followed by a

6:32

twelve hour followed by a six hour. It's a go rock

6:34

event. I think Matt did a podcast

6:36

on that a a while ago. So

6:38

yeah. When is your event?

6:40

When is your event? Oh, it starts on Friday.

6:43

So

6:43

it starts from Friday through Sunday.

6:44

Man, I hope that goes well. Good

6:47

luck, dude.

6:48

Thanks. Yeah. That's amazing. Will

6:50

is relative. It's gonna suck,

6:52

but that's kind of the point.

6:54

Enjoy the suck. That's what they say.

6:55

Right? I've actually been looking maybe

6:58

we'll talk about this one day. I've been looking a lot

7:00

at the or doing a lot more conditioning,

7:02

reintegrating that back in my training from

7:05

years ago when that was kind of the

7:07

primary focus on my

7:07

training. It's been

7:08

a blast. Mhmm. That's really cool. Lots of

7:10

stuff to learn from that. But

7:12

what we're talking about today is

7:15

you.

7:16

So for those who have been listening

7:18

to the podcast for quite some time, Nicki

7:21

is usually, you know, the host

7:23

of the podcast, kinda navigating

7:25

things, the MC of sorts. But

7:27

today, I would actually like

7:29

to interview you.

7:31

Specifically, you've had

7:34

not just a lot of experience as a coach and

7:36

a lot of experience in helping other people

7:38

with injuries, but you've been dealing with a little

7:40

something for a while now. Yes.

7:44

We talked about it during when we had

7:46

Becca on, for lifting

7:48

with back pain. And it came up a little

7:50

bit your personal experience, but

7:52

it's been going on for long enough, and

7:54

I've seen so many interesting, like,

7:56

insights and tidbits from you on

7:58

the grams, the

7:59

Instagram. Learning a lot.

8:01

Yeah. So if

8:03

I could, like, just open that up then,

8:06

what happened? Like, if you were to

8:08

go, like, this whole back

8:10

adventure started what

8:12

would you call the

8:13

start? Okay.

8:13

So we're gonna focus on if you wanna talk

8:16

about shoulder stuff, I also have that, so

8:18

we can talk about shoulder injury as

8:20

well. Yeah. And me stuff.

8:22

Let's talk about learning all those things.

8:24

Well, because and I see posts that you have

8:26

going back to twenty twenty one where

8:28

you're like, you know, my BJJ shoulder,

8:30

you know, my back is I've got cranky

8:33

back. Like, so so let's do

8:34

both, like, when when did you start

8:37

noticing this is affecting my

8:39

training? This is something that I'm having to

8:41

adjust

8:41

to? There was an event that I could

8:43

potentially tie the back stuff

8:45

back too, which is May of

8:47

twenty twenty, where

8:49

there was something that happened in a

8:51

workout during a deficit deadlifts

8:53

where there was like a pop

8:55

and a sensation, and

8:57

then a kind of pattern

8:59

of performance changing

9:02

and more sensitivity while lifting.

9:04

And it was since then that I

9:06

had to start really kind of

9:08

training a bit differently and

9:11

notice some performance

9:13

drop in my deadlift.

9:16

Fortunately, I was able to squeeze out a squat

9:18

PR before things really went south,

9:21

which was great. Right.

9:23

At least I got that one. At least I got

9:25

my three hundred. I can die happy. But,

9:29

yeah, May twenty twenty is when things really

9:32

start to change. And then there was another

9:34

event in August of twenty twenty

9:36

one actually at our conference. Wow.

9:38

Was the night for a really big day. We had our

9:41

lifting competition. I was giving, I

9:43

think, two presentations that

9:45

next day. And I was sleeping. And I

9:47

woke up in total

9:49

pain. It was that feeling, I guess,

9:51

when that people speak of when their back goes out.

9:53

And I just woke up with, like,

9:56

just you know, like, can't

9:58

see straight, can't move

10:01

without pain. I was, like, in a

10:03

hotel room and no one had access

10:05

to me. I, like, couldn't move. So I was, like, also freaking

10:07

out about what's gonna happen. And

10:10

when I could move, it hurts so bad. I

10:12

was, like, dry heaving and it went on. I

10:14

was, like, trying to get comfortable and to, like, find

10:16

some relief for hours. And so

10:18

I, like, didn't sleep that night. And then I,

10:20

you know, this is

10:22

my personality. I looked it in the left in competition

10:24

later that day. I

10:26

don't know. That was good. As I do. As

10:28

I do. I wore heels and gave

10:30

presentations. But that was, like, the

10:33

moment of the most pain and the most kind

10:35

of, oh, crap. And then

10:37

performance really took a significant

10:39

dive after that moment. That was August of

10:41

twenty twenty

10:41

one. So it's been pretty interesting since

10:44

then. So on the one

10:46

hand, as I listen, I'm like, this

10:48

has been a long process.

10:50

This has been kind of a long story for

10:51

you. On the other hand, you've been training

10:54

for a long, long time. Oh, yeah. I

10:55

never stopped training. But I

10:58

mean, not just after, but before then as

11:00

well. So, like, before this, is this what

11:02

you would consider the most, like, serious

11:04

interruption to your training where you I

11:06

know those few people that I'm almost,

11:08

like, jealous of, they're, like, yeah, that

11:10

tweaks. I don't they don't really happen to me,

11:12

like, whatever -- Yeah. -- they're they're rare. And,

11:14

like, I I'm, like, you're lying to

11:17

me. But to Was this something

11:19

you dealt with in the past

11:20

before, you know, before this issue for you?

11:22

Like, the biggest set back

11:24

to my training was this

11:27

weird knee injury that I experienced

11:29

when I was like rushing to get into

11:31

a cab. In New York City trying

11:33

to make it to a train, to go teach at a seminar,

11:35

and it was like this ridiculous moment where it was

11:37

pouring rain. I held a cab. I

11:39

had my suitcase. This other woman got

11:41

in the cab too and we had, like, looked at each other

11:43

and we were, like, this is my cab and, like,

11:45

I was running so late that we both just

11:47

decided to share it, but I threw my suitcase

11:49

in, wrenched both my legs and then twisted

11:51

my knee. Like, then I

11:53

had a knee injury for I think it was like eight to ten

11:55

weeks where I couldn't squat and barely could

11:57

deadlift. And so that was, like, the first

11:59

of my lifting difficulties.

12:02

And then I think the one of

12:04

the biggest things that happened was I turned

12:06

thirty five So, you know, your body

12:08

just really tries to go south after

12:10

that point. And I

12:12

started jujitsu. So it's like

12:14

hammering jujitsu, hammering training,

12:17

aging, and that all kinda converged in

12:19

twenty twenty. And I think that's where it

12:21

wasn't one of that, like, quick bounce back

12:23

things anymore. I think

12:25

I've learned like, I know that there are some things I

12:27

would have done differently looking

12:29

back, but, you know, you don't know until

12:31

you

12:31

know. Hindsight. So I'd love to get

12:33

to that in a second because a lot of what interests

12:36

me is what you learn. Just pulling

12:38

back the history of it, I'm

12:40

always struck. How often

12:42

coaches, you know, are like, oh, well, I have a, you

12:44

know, solution to injury or, well,

12:46

the program that I've been following

12:48

I haven't gotten hurt, my clients don't

12:50

get hurt, you know, like and that

12:53

strikes me as a moment there

12:55

where I'm just, like, yet.

12:57

Yeah. Like, if you do it long enough,

12:59

if you train seriously long

13:02

enough, it pursuing greater maxes,

13:04

you know, greater increases in weight. You're trying

13:06

to see progress over time. You're

13:08

consistently doing it. It feels

13:10

almost like an inevitability

13:12

that is something you're going to have to

13:14

work through and have to process.

13:16

Yeah. And I think that can really

13:19

be more so if

13:21

you're really trying to compete. Like,

13:23

I really was pushing myself

13:25

super hard. So I was in the

13:27

zone of pushing my limits.

13:29

And I was, you know, doing jujitsu

13:32

up to seven times a week and lifting

13:34

four times a week, which is

13:37

really redlining. So if you're gonna

13:39

put yourself into the red like that, really,

13:41

if you're in your mid thirties or later,

13:43

it becomes definitely

13:45

not a matter of

13:46

if, but a matter of when. And

13:49

I think

13:49

that's different. If you aren't, you know, redlining

13:51

like that, I think it it might it'll

13:53

probably happen. You'll get some sort of

13:54

tweak. Something's gonna happen. I agree with you, but

13:57

you just are increasing your chances if

13:59

you're really pushing into that zone.

14:02

Yeah. Let's not I because with jujitsu, of

14:04

course, you're it's not just like that

14:06

something one sideways and lift, it was an angle. Like,

14:08

someone is actively trying to hurt you. And this

14:10

is like This is a choreographed you

14:12

know, harm like we're But

14:14

somebody is trying, I must brack you,

14:16

to steal from Rocky four.

14:18

Okay. So you mentioned you've learned

14:20

a lot. And and part of that

14:23

was I was redlining it. I was

14:25

pushing really hard. I wore

14:27

heels and lifted the day of a

14:29

crippling back wake up. So

14:31

the first thing that comes to mind,

14:33

not what you would do, but

14:36

besides lifting, like immediately

14:38

after, what were your

14:40

first changes in your first thoughts.

14:42

Maybe let's go back to the at the block party

14:44

when you had the moment

14:45

then. Yeah. What

14:46

were kind of

14:46

the first thoughts and

14:49

modifications that you made to your

14:51

training, your approach. So at

14:53

that point, I was really operating

14:55

under the kind of theory

14:57

of you know,

14:59

it's fine. Just keep training.

15:01

It's probably gonna go away. You

15:03

can still move like I went through the

15:05

red flags, like, there wasn't a

15:07

lot of there wasn't any numbness. Like,

15:10

I still had, like, you know,

15:12

bladder control. So, like, the red flags

15:14

were okay, like I passed that

15:16

test. So my second was, well,

15:18

let's just modify the weights and the

15:20

frequency and keep training. And,

15:22

you know, play with the range of motion. So the typical

15:24

kind of protocol of find

15:26

the space where it doesn't hurt and

15:28

work within that space. And then build

15:30

up from there. So those are the first things we changed like

15:33

we went from. So we're doing block

15:35

pulls, lighten the weight on

15:37

squats. I think I was really feeling at

15:39

the most on

15:41

squats actually started to get there. And so I would

15:43

just kind of This is like

15:45

character fly, I think. It's

15:47

like, I wasn't ready to stop

15:49

pushing. And so whenever there was a

15:51

day where I felt

15:51

okay, I pushed. You were

15:53

still training really specific. It was still

15:55

the squats, dead lifts, bench

15:57

press chins, you know, is all started the stuff that you'd

15:59

always been

15:59

doing. Ultra chips too. Yeah. And

16:01

oh, yeah. On top of lots of jujitsu,

16:04

and you made those initial

16:06

changes, like, in the wait, change the range of

16:08

motion. But otherwise, you are still

16:10

staying pretty close to barrel and it sounds like

16:12

it was very much like keep

16:14

going. You know? Yeah. That well, this

16:16

will pass -- Yeah. -- just

16:18

navigate the intensity and you'll

16:20

come out the tunnel on the other side. Yeah.

16:23

Yeah. That's what I thought I was doing.

16:26

Yeah. I mean, that's more than fair. Put a pen

16:28

in it to what you would have changed.

16:30

But obviously, that strategy, that

16:32

approach, which sometimes works,

16:34

especially, you know, like you said, when you're twenty

16:36

five, when you're, you know, it wasn't working

16:38

now. It didn't work this time. Yeah.

16:40

So what happened next? So I got

16:42

to a point where I

16:45

was having more and more days

16:47

in pain at the gym.

16:49

Every time I walked into my gym, I was

16:51

in pain. And it got to

16:53

a point where just looking at my

16:55

lifting shoes, pain would

16:57

increase. And so I really started

16:59

reinforcing this pattern of going to the

17:01

gym equals herding, and it was

17:03

getting really frustrating. I would try

17:05

to lift and the weights I was able to lift were

17:07

getting lower and lower and lower. So pain

17:09

was screaming, frequency of

17:11

pain was high, and ability to

17:13

perform was

17:14

decreasing. So And it sounds like when you say, like, you

17:17

were looking at your weight lifting shoes and the

17:19

pain would increase, sounds like

17:21

there's maybe some anxiety too or

17:23

some, like, hesitance around

17:25

gym. Like, I know it's going to

17:27

hurt, so it just hurts me.

17:28

Yeah. Like, they really started to

17:31

turn into that relationship

17:34

of, you know, do you

17:36

experience pain in your body for a reason, but

17:38

then also your brain just gets really

17:40

interwoven and you start

17:42

experiencing pain before there's even

17:44

a force that you're dealing with or a movement

17:46

that you're dealing

17:47

with. There's just the pain

17:49

signal was starting earlier and it was

17:52

more often. And

17:52

so something had to change. Something had to change.

17:54

And I was working with Jordan Stanton

17:57

who was great. He got me to my 3M

17:59

ground squad. It was awesome, but

18:01

I I was feeling

18:03

like I couldn't compete

18:05

in anything and I needed I

18:07

really wanted to work with a

18:09

coach that a bit more rehab kind of

18:12

experience. And that's why I reached

18:14

out to Becca because, you know, as we've

18:16

spoken to her before, she has some

18:18

more specific training in that arena.

18:20

So I wanted to just kind of I need, like

18:22

and I love Jordan. I highly recommend them. I

18:24

think it's great. But

18:27

there's sometimes there gets to this moment

18:29

where, like you said, I needed to

18:31

change and I thought maybe a fresh

18:33

start would be good for

18:34

me. To kind of approaching it differently because

18:37

I wasn't doing such a good job approaching

18:39

it differently on my own. Okay.

18:42

Yeah. It's interesting to me. Like,

18:44

there's not just the

18:46

ideas that the client has or the

18:48

ideas that the coach has, but

18:51

we end up getting into a flow of

18:53

things as a coach client kind

18:55

of pattern that

18:57

even when you know, the coach is doing

18:59

all the right steps. They're doing everything we ask them

19:01

to and everything that kind of

19:03

fits for how we've communicated in the

19:05

past and everything. It's just that combined

19:07

Nikki Jordan. The combined, you know,

19:09

client coach wasn't getting you

19:11

where you wanted to be and

19:14

a lot of that could be just, you know what, I need

19:17

something new. Yeah. You

19:19

summed that up so beautifully. It

19:21

was the momentum I had created and

19:23

the expect quotations I put on myself that

19:25

I wasn't operating well within.

19:27

And so I needed kind of

19:29

a a new kind of external input

19:31

to help me recalibrate

19:32

myself. Yeah.

19:33

So you ended up this is

19:35

something that I'm actually really grateful that

19:37

I've done this myself. I had a couple

19:39

of different coaches within block. Where if when

19:41

that relationship just needs to shift, but I still like

19:44

I like barbell training, I like this is what I

19:46

wanna do, you can change from one coach

19:48

to another as a block client, which

19:50

is kinda cool. You know, request a

19:52

different and then hopefully find someone who

19:54

matches better towards that direction that

19:56

you're moving in. Yeah. And so

19:59

you found Becca. She's a

20:01

physical therapy assistant. She has

20:03

talked on this podcast several times

20:05

about Niki's, recently talked

20:07

about back pain. Specifically so.

20:09

Convenient. Perfect. What changed

20:11

there? So how did the new

20:14

Nikki Niki's -- Yeah.

20:16

-- combination change what you

20:17

did. I wish I

20:19

had gone back into my training log and looked at a

20:21

lot of more specific things, but we started

20:24

like, we really took out normal

20:26

squats and deadlifts pretty significantly.

20:28

And until that like, up until that point,

20:30

I had been working on leg, hypertrophy

20:33

work because since I was seeing my

20:35

squat. My ability to squat decrease. My ability

20:37

to deadlift decrease. I still wanted to make sure I was

20:39

getting some sort of training in. So I would start doing

20:41

more isolation exercises. So

20:44

In addition to that, we started doing different

20:46

kinds of squats. We did lots of

20:48

goblet squats. We did some

20:50

more abdominal work

20:53

to kind of see

20:55

how my back could

20:57

be loaded differently. And her

20:59

theory was that leaning over was just

21:01

not a good place for it to be. There

21:03

was always this kind of freaking out with it leaning

21:06

over. And I should say, I never got

21:08

an MRI because I

21:11

am cheap. We're

21:13

probably getting that point where I'm gonna do it, but I'll do it at

21:15

the start of the year, you know, just like

21:17

deductible excuses. So

21:19

to her credit, she's done such a wonderful

21:21

job navigating all my symptoms without

21:23

really knowing what's going on. But

21:25

we did kind of decide that

21:27

leaning over and doing things was challenging.

21:29

So let's do as many things as we

21:31

can upright. So we worked on doublet squats.

21:34

We worked on loading my spine

21:36

with compression with overhead work, like getting in

21:39

just some, like, waiters, carries, and

21:41

farmers' walks, and starting to

21:43

just see what my spine can handle

21:46

loading in way more compression than

21:47

moment. And that was that

21:50

was different because it was like all these new

21:52

exercises I've never heard of before are really

21:54

weird names and

21:56

just hardly barbell hardly much barbell work. I don't

21:58

know if this is a trend or if it's just something

22:00

you're good at. I've seen a lot more chins on your

22:02

Instagram. So has that been a new focus for

22:05

you? Because you're you're Niki's, like, loading in

22:07

compression, changing

22:07

the the direction of force. Was it just

22:10

like, well, tension doesn't hurt at all. Like, I and

22:12

I like chin up. So let's focus on

22:13

this, or does it just happen to be, like, that's,

22:16

you know, what makes the gram? It was one of

22:18

those lifts that I

22:20

could do that didn't hurt. Yeah. Because even

22:22

venting was hurting because going into

22:24

really hard extension was creating

22:27

a

22:27

spasm. So even bench was a

22:29

little bit held back. So should I be doing

22:31

a

22:31

lot more floor press? Yeah. Lots

22:33

of floor press, which that had

22:35

to do with shoulder stuff and with back

22:37

stuff. Yeah. Floor plus is one of my

22:39

new favorite variations. Okay.

22:42

So, yes, she helped me

22:44

see and I really get my hair skill on this

22:46

is she has a lot of

22:48

different exercises to incorporate when

22:50

the main ones aren't an option.

22:52

So she'll kind of even progressively

22:55

overload those in terms

22:57

of weight, difficulty,

23:00

and variation. order to see

23:02

what or in order to just, like,

23:04

slowly, gradually build on

23:06

the ability to

23:08

get towards a squat or towards a deadlift in

23:10

completely different ways. You have to get

23:13

less and less specific, the

23:15

more and more kind of sensitized you

23:17

are. And so she had lots of good

23:19

ideas for getting

23:21

very unspecific to squatting and dead

23:22

lifting, but would eventually get us back to

23:25

that point. Convention

23:26

too, if that makes sense. So we

23:29

started doing a lot more weird

23:32

exercises.

23:33

Sure. Yeah. And I think it's I think

23:36

a lot of people, especially who listen to this podcast, would probably hear

23:38

that and be like, you know,

23:40

that's lesser

23:41

training. Right. It's not as good,

23:44

you know, it's it's compromised training.

23:46

If I could, I pulled from here. I was looking

23:48

through Instagram for comments and reflections that

23:50

you had had and posted in the past.

23:52

And you said something I thought was really neat. You said, while my

23:54

training looks very different, I still

23:56

train four to five times per week. I've

23:58

actually put on muscle mass

24:02

even though at this point, you're doing fewer

24:04

of the core four, the specific

24:06

barbell lifts. And I've done more focused out

24:08

training than ever before, I care about training and

24:10

building muscle and I act like it. My

24:12

actions and the amount on the weight on the bar are just

24:14

different now.

24:16

Yeah. That actually is still true to this day, which is cool.

24:18

Becca asked me this one time, she was like,

24:20

how do you keep showing up for this?

24:22

Because it's been really difficult

24:24

been emotionally challenging. It's been literally

24:27

painful. And you kinda always just wonder,

24:29

like, why do you keep doing this? Like,

24:31

you could just not train anymore. That

24:33

sounds like it'd be a better option. But I

24:35

am so deeply

24:38

committed to gaining muscle whole as

24:40

I age and not losing muscle as I age,

24:42

that I was gonna do it in some

24:44

way. And it wasn't with the barbell for

24:46

a while, but, like, there's still

24:48

the habit of, like, spending time in the gym,

24:50

exerting force in one way or

24:52

another, which has allowed me to learn a lot of

24:54

new things about training. And

24:57

kind of finding the bigger

24:59

picture level of importance and

25:01

then breaking everything up into, like, smaller

25:03

blocks, which Becca has really helped me with. And I think

25:05

that's really important when people are injured

25:07

because you start to

25:09

feel like a failure. And for me,

25:11

it was like a huge identity crisis. It

25:13

was like, I'm this competitive lifter. I'm a strength

25:15

coach. I wanna compete in

25:17

jujitsu. And now, like, a lot of what

25:19

I do is painful. And just

25:21

like, you know, having a hard time delisting one

25:23

hundred and thirty five. So you

25:25

kind of have to really see yourself or

25:27

you have to see that this is just a phase.

25:30

Of your training. It wasn't direction you

25:32

wanted to go down. But, like, I'm

25:34

still doing work towards my main picture

25:36

goal of making sure I have muscle

25:38

as I

25:39

age. And that's

25:39

now useful to of stay focused on. There was that

25:42

point you're making the shift in your

25:44

programming away from the barbell lifts towards other

25:46

things while you're, you know, because you're

25:48

just so sensitized and the training

25:50

experience itself was just

25:51

sucking. At some point, you

25:54

stopped doing jujitsu. Yeah.

25:56

So I took some time off to Jitsu. I

25:58

think it was, like, December of last

26:00

year to see if that would

26:02

be helpful. Because, you know,

26:04

it's unpredictable. Like,

26:06

lifting is super predictable. It's

26:08

bilateral. You control the range of motion.

26:10

You control the weight. But in jujitsu,

26:13

like, you're really getting cranked into

26:15

really challenging positions. Like you said

26:17

earlier, the goal is to,

26:19

like, make someone's joint

26:21

uncomfortable and painful enough that they

26:23

submit. And I wanted to

26:25

experiment with taking out

26:27

that factor to

26:29

see if things could

26:29

improve. And they did after, like, six

26:32

months. In your mind, was that more

26:34

shoulder thing, a back thing, an

26:36

all thing? It's just I would like to

26:38

experiment with this variable and just not

26:40

being beat up in

26:40

general. Yeah. At that time, it was

26:43

back related. My shoulder gotten to a pretty

26:45

good point then. And there's also,

26:47

like, the training stress where,

26:49

you know, if you look at your ability

26:51

to train per week, you know, even just that

26:53

one or two sessions might be enough to

26:56

start the pain pattern. Like, I sorry.

26:58

I don't know if I'm just trying this well, but,

27:00

like, I would feel great at

27:02

jujitsu. No pain.

27:03

No pain at all. But

27:05

for the whole day and twenty four

27:07

hours after, hobbling around

27:11

So it was challenging because I felt so

27:13

good while doing jujitsu, but it

27:15

was not helping my lifting or my

27:17

recovery at

27:18

all. So I kind of had to be like, alright,

27:20

what will benefit from me taking this out for

27:22

a little while? And when can I put

27:24

it back

27:25

in? And I loved another comment on the

27:27

Instagram that you made, the

27:30

Instagram. No. But you said, fortunately, I

27:32

protected myself from myself by getting

27:34

a coach who holds me accountable.

27:36

Because of that

27:37

feeling, like, while I'm rolling,

27:40

while I'm doing jujitsu, I feel

27:42

great, but it's not working for me

27:44

yet. Yeah. Hey, Barbara Electric listeners. I have a great

27:47

friend of the podcast here. I've got Blake, the

27:49

owner from Dominion Belts.

27:52

Hey, man. How is the holiday

27:54

season treating you guys at Dominion?

27:56

Treating is great, Matt. How about you guys? It's

27:58

good. It's always a crazy time of year. Yeah.

28:00

For sure. What are the big things

28:02

you're trying to push in the holiday season going

28:04

into

28:04

Christmas? What kind of new products do you have? What

28:06

are the things that are really exciting to you right

28:08

now at Dominion's strength? Well, we've got

28:11

everything from our three inch

28:13

single ply belts up through. We

28:15

just started with these our four inch

28:17

water buffalo lever belts, everything

28:19

in between. If you've already got a belt and

28:21

you're looking for lifting straps, we've

28:23

got those. We've got a dip belt strap. So

28:25

if you have a weightlifting belt, but you don't

28:27

have a dip belt, we have a strap you could put

28:29

on your weightlifting belt to turn it into a

28:32

dip belt. Super cool. Those have been very

28:34

popular. And this is also the first year

28:36

if you're buying a gift for someone, you don't

28:38

know what they need, or you don't know what size

28:40

they are. We have gift cards available on the

28:42

website. There's never expire. We don't

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play any games like

28:44

that. You can get a gift card that's just as

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good as cash on dominions strength

28:49

training dot com. I love that as gift

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cards as well you could probably buy

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right up till Christmas. Oh, yeah. Okay. So if you're

28:55

one of those people that waited too long, you can

28:57

still get the gift card, just still give a

28:59

gift of a Dominion belt, by the way, that four inch water

29:01

buffalo lever belt. I think I might have

29:03

gotten the first one you made. DJ, if you had gotten me

29:05

to get some early buffalo and I was like, I want

29:07

it. And so I've got that. IA4

29:09

inch lever. I got the three inch lever. I got the four inch buckle. I've got the

29:11

three inch buckle. So I think I've got all of them. I've got

29:13

the straps as well. The straps are high quality leather.

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They're fantastic and they get better

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and softer they're pretty soft or not. They don't

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really scratch your hands up early on, but then

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they get even better as you continue to lift

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with them. So love all the products you put

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out. By the way, should say this and I think most of our

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listeners know, you're making all this

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stuff. So this isn't like something that you're having

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made overseas and then shipped

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in. You are actually running the shop yourself, which

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is really cool. We're a true small business. We

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have our shop in Florida. It's

29:39

myself, my wife, Katie, my brother,

29:42

Brandon that works this it's just the three

29:44

of us turning out belts. Very

29:46

cool. So we have used Dominion for

29:48

years. First off, thank you for being a on podcast

29:50

for years. What is the code? I think

29:52

you've got a great discount code for our barbell logic

29:54

listeners. For the holiday season, what

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is that? That's code logic.

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So LOG I see all lower case.

30:01

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and you wanna get a nice discount on

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there's so much easier to wear I love those lever belts because just

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That's what I'd love to wear it all my training. So thanks

30:21

again for being a sponsored podcast.

30:23

Please tell Katie brother.

30:26

Hi. Take care for what you're doing and these are the

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highest quality belts we've ever used and

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excited to have you on the podcast and promote it. You

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guys go out there and get a belt in If your family member doesn't have

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equipment for them to have for training. A

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com, and you've just got a good logic, fifteen percent off the

30:45

belt. Yep. And I'll mention just one more

30:47

quick thing, Matt. Normally, our lead

30:50

times on a bell when you order are very short. Usually

30:52

just a week, not more than that. We're going

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into the holiday

30:54

season. That's gonna change quickly.

30:57

So if you wanna get a belt, get the order in

30:59

quick. Perfect. Thanks brother. Hope you

31:01

have a great holiday season, and we'll talk to you

31:03

in the New Year.

31:07

Yeah. And that goes really good about making

31:10

me set really specific

31:12

goals. And helping

31:15

me really prioritize. Like, is

31:17

this more important than this? Like,

31:19

is getting back to Jjitsi for community

31:21

better is more important than getting your deadlift

31:23

up? helping me really kind

31:25

of be real about the

31:27

priorities because if it was a

31:29

coach, you wanna be like, yeah, we can do all of that. Let's

31:31

do all of that. But when

31:33

there's clearly something that's

31:35

stealing from another when there's one

31:37

activity that's stealing from goals, you have to

31:39

really real about what you wanna prioritize on. There

31:41

are several times and I was like, I think I wanna

31:43

start putting jujitsu back in and she's

31:45

like, let's hold on another three weeks.

31:47

Be like, fine. So that's

31:51

the question then. That I have for you in your

31:53

thought process, in your collaboration

31:55

with Becca in solving this problem, several

31:57

times you've mentioned that you were

31:59

doing less barbell work or no barbell work

32:01

for a while. You know, there is feeling of

32:03

yet, and I've seen you recently doing

32:05

thoughts again. I've seen you recently doing some lifts,

32:07

and you even mentioned that there's

32:09

this feeling of, okay, another wait another three

32:12

weeks. So what were

32:14

as you peek into your black box, as we talk

32:16

about in the academy, kind of trying to

32:18

understand our thought processes for

32:20

why we make decisions, what

32:22

triggered you to start doing

32:24

barbell lifts again? Like, what told you that it

32:26

was safe? And what are you

32:29

looking for? Like, what's your trigger

32:31

for

32:32

Okay. I'm willing to do JJU again.

32:35

Okay. So

32:36

going back to when would

32:39

it be okay to start doing

32:41

barbell stuff? That was a lot

32:43

of kind of

32:45

really seeing how the less felt on that day.

32:47

Like, I wanted to get them back in because I

32:49

believe barbell training is really,

32:51

really, really effective. Like, you

32:53

know, there are only so many times I can stay

32:55

motivated for three by ten like extensions.

32:58

And, you know, doing three by five squats is

33:00

just so much more effective. So it's really

33:02

eager to, you know, be more efficient with my

33:04

training. So I wanted to get that back in. Also, I

33:06

really love dead lifting. So That was

33:08

just something that I wanted back in my

33:10

training, but there would be like

33:12

a weight or a rep that

33:14

would, for me, it's a pop

33:16

and then there's a

33:18

spasm and I've learned

33:20

ways to calm that spasm down, but

33:22

sometimes the pop and the

33:24

spasm will stay around for a long enough time that it was

33:26

not worth that one set of five at seventy

33:28

five pounds. So it's like, how

33:30

can I navigate that

33:33

lift to where I'm no longer experiencing

33:35

that pop and that spasm? And

33:37

if I do experience it, I know how to

33:39

calm it down immediately, and it doesn't

33:41

impact the next twenty four

33:42

hours. So it wasn't it wasn't like It

33:45

wasn't like, oh, it's gonna be this amount of time

33:47

or this weight on the bar. You're experiencing,

33:49

like, on a daily basis, like,

33:51

each step by step. Like, this is the weight on the

33:53

bar. You know, I'm at intense. How am

33:55

I

33:55

feeling? Is that you're sort of just feeling

33:57

it out?

33:58

Yeah. Yeah. And I would sneak it in sometimes because, like, if

34:01

goblet squat felt good, I was like,

34:03

okay. Let's try a front

34:04

squat. Let's try a back squat. And Becca

34:07

had had me do RDLs, which

34:09

is like, okay. That's feeling good. Let's try a touch and go dot

34:11

left or touch and go kind of RDL and see

34:13

how that feels. So we got from our, like

34:15

I was saying earlier, or

34:17

really not or less specific exercises, we would kind

34:19

of let them gauge or

34:22

use them to test the waters to try the more

34:25

specific barbell extra size to see if

34:28

there were work. And sometimes it didn't at all, at

34:30

all, and then sometimes it was okay. And

34:32

those another important learning is

34:36

that, like, the days are very different. It's because it was a

34:38

total disaster one day, it could

34:40

be really good the next time. And because

34:42

it was really good

34:44

one

34:44

time, still means it could be

34:46

a total disaster next time. Well,

34:48

this has been a long process. I

34:50

mean, you're -- Yeah. -- going back all the way

34:52

to May twenty twenty and then you

34:54

obviously, you know, the peak event August twenty

34:56

twenty one. So this has been, you know, it's

34:58

been over a year

34:59

at least of navigating these different

35:01

solutions. So you've had as

35:04

frustrating as that as Ben, you've had a lot of

35:06

opportunities to play into that

35:08

space a little bit and see what happens.

35:10

Where do you feel you are now? Like, are you

35:12

able to consistently get a barbell on your back, like,

35:14

consistently train that way? Or is

35:16

it still very much in that exploring on a

35:18

day to day

35:20

basis space? It's

35:21

definitely still in that zone. It has gotten quite a

35:23

bit better. We started tracking

35:26

morning kind of pain and lack of

35:28

mobility is really what it

35:30

feels like. And watching that metric change has been

35:32

really useful because consistently for,

35:34

like, you know, last year and a half, I wake up just

35:36

super stiff. And sometimes can't

35:38

even, you know, bend over because it's just so

35:40

much spasming. So kind

35:42

of seeing that metric improve has

35:44

been a good indicator of whether or

35:46

not we should incorporate some more

35:48

barbell training. And actually, what's

35:50

worked really well is I kinda

35:52

just took over my leg training, I call

35:54

it, where I do leg work

35:56

because having a set

35:58

program for a squat and a deadlift

36:00

was actually becoming really stressful

36:02

again because I just would feel like a

36:04

failure or it would

36:06

just like I would see how many times I couldn't

36:08

squat. And so now I'm kind of in the driver's seat

36:10

of like, you know what this feels good? I'll

36:12

do it today. It feels okay without

36:14

like this

36:15

pressure that Becca never put on me, but I'll put on myself.

36:18

It's funny how that

36:19

works. Right? That that Becca can say

36:21

a million times like, hey, this

36:23

is a placeholder. These are estimates. Right. got RPEs with, like,

36:25

a three RPE range, you know, whatever it

36:27

is we wanna say

36:30

to it. But the fact that we go in that day to

36:32

squat and we come out not being

36:34

able to squat just gutsy.

36:38

Yeah. So

36:39

in in the end, it's the expectation that

36:41

we put on ourselves. Yeah. That's another

36:44

great conversation Becca had with me. It's like,

36:46

you know, I you say things having

36:48

but do another inventory because you

36:50

might actually be having

36:52

some expectations of yourself that you're

36:56

not totally free from yet, and that was really helpful.

36:58

Yeah.

36:59

William, you mentioned there was a

37:01

big shift, there was an

37:04

identity shift. From I'm a competitive lifter. I'm

37:06

going for these big PRs, these big

37:08

goals. I'm training seven times a

37:10

week in

37:12

Fujitsu. That is a very aggressive physical identity.

37:14

And then to where you

37:16

are now, where you're still training, you're

37:18

putting in as much time training, you're

37:22

gaining muscle at least in the gym. I don't know know how jiu jitsu, what's

37:24

gonna fit in that time? Because seven, you know,

37:26

training sessions a week is a lot. But

37:29

at least in terms of gen time, you're gaining

37:31

muscle mass, but that had to have changed kind

37:33

of your identity.

37:35

Like, when you compare

37:37

where you're training now with maybe

37:40

where you thought you'd be two years

37:42

ago. Right? Mhmm.

37:44

Not even are they different because, of course, they're

37:46

different. They're always different.

37:48

But are you happy with

37:50

where you are now and where

37:52

what you've realized about training is taking

37:54

you?

37:55

That is a really important

37:58

thing to address because I can

38:00

choose to go down that thought

38:02

path of being really disappointed about where I am right now

38:04

in my training. Because,

38:06

you know, there could have been one universe

38:08

where that didn't happen, and I finally

38:10

got to my goal of deadlifting four forty.

38:12

That is so far from where I am right now and I down the

38:14

tunnel a ceiling really bombed about that.

38:16

But that's kind of exhausting and I

38:18

don't wanna feel that way. So Instead,

38:22

you know, you really start to learn about different

38:25

kinds of training. Like, how

38:27

can I continue to build muscle when so

38:29

many movements that I was

38:32

familiar with? Are off the table. So now I get to learn more about

38:34

how to do that. Like,

38:36

I am able to still really have fun with

38:38

training again.

38:40

Which is really great because there was such a long period of it just being,

38:42

you know, a really bad time of the

38:44

day and that's a bummer because I

38:46

love training, you know. You

38:49

kind of start you go through this phase

38:51

before you get entered. You're like, I love training.

38:53

It's the best. And then, training becomes

38:55

a really difficult

38:58

chapter where you don't know what you're gonna get when you go in. You have to

39:00

be ready to spend the time

39:02

experimenting. Like, what's gonna hurt? What's not gonna

39:04

hurt? What's

39:06

okay? Comparing where you wish you were to where you actually

39:08

are. And that can become such

39:10

a big drag that you can start

39:13

to hate training. And so

39:15

you have to kind of find a way to

39:18

put the the play back into it because that's

39:20

what it was before. It was my play time.

39:22

It felt really good. It felt fun

39:24

to compete. Point on my clothes, listen

39:26

to music, and then it was this exercise of

39:28

how can I accept being

39:31

weak and being in pain?

39:34

And transfer that into,

39:36

okay, I still know what I want out

39:38

of my training. Can I make sure I'm injecting

39:40

that into my training routine and kind

39:42

of go through that exercise of am I still

39:45

getting my needs, not with my training, even though it looks

39:47

a lot different than what it could have

39:49

been? But I think I would just be careful when you

39:51

are tempted to go down that rabbit hole

39:53

of comparing to what could

39:56

have would have because it's a choice to go down that. And

39:58

some people might find it

40:00

worthwhile, but I think it

40:03

can be really just

40:04

depressing. It's definitely it's so funny that you

40:07

mentioned how, you know, we can go down

40:09

this path. I find oftentimes,

40:12

like, the past sort of on it was

40:14

the mistakes that I made that prevented

40:16

me from getting a Selective

40:18

First Seal Spot. And then

40:22

for just a different points in my training path. Like, I

40:24

can look at those. And every once in a while,

40:26

that feeling will hit. It's like an intrusive thought

40:28

of like,

40:30

oh, But

40:31

the choice to follow that, to

40:33

indulge in that, to go with

40:35

that is very much

40:38

something that I can choose to go down

40:40

to some extent. It's like, if I choose

40:42

to take that

40:43

first, like, two steps, then

40:45

it starts, you know, spiraling down.

40:48

Right. Yeah. And what what good

40:50

does it do? Maybe there's some little nugget

40:52

you can glean from that little side

40:54

exercise, but I don't know if it's healthy

40:56

to stain it for a very long time. Like, give

40:58

yourself ten minutes to

41:00

dwell, then move on.

41:02

You know? Like, I would always come

41:04

back to the very zoomed out

41:06

picture of why I like

41:07

training, and how am

41:09

I doing that? And then how can I work in little chunks to get

41:11

back to, you know, if I wanna compete in dead

41:14

lifting again? What are the small chunks that I

41:16

can take to get back there.

41:18

And they're very small. Like, okay. How does

41:20

dead lifting ninety five pounds from a block

41:22

feel for four weeks?

41:25

Super,

41:25

super small. But you are working towards that bigger picture of a

41:28

bowl. Mhmm.

41:29

Yeah. And I also was

41:32

thinking that

41:34

becomes really important for people who are dealing with

41:36

a pain or injury to consider

41:38

pain as another training

41:42

variable. Like volume, frequency, tonnage,

41:45

pain. Because, you know, there are some days

41:47

where it's just like it's gonna hurt and it's gonna feel sore and

41:49

it's gonna spasm a little bit, but

41:52

that's okay a couple times a week. Is it seven times a week?

41:54

Is it with every lift? Like, if you're seeing

41:57

the frequency and intensity, of

42:01

that variable increase and increase and increase or

42:03

even stay the same, particularly whatever

42:05

if it's not decreasing.

42:08

That's something to keep an eye on. But I think as

42:10

a coach, you have to keep that variable in mind because pain

42:13

just wears on you. It's

42:15

emotionally draining. It's exhausting. It

42:18

influences the rest of your life. Like, you know, we just wanna be

42:20

able to carry groceries from a car on

42:22

one trip. And when it's harder and

42:25

harder for you to do that, then

42:27

you see, like, your quality of

42:29

life decreasing instead of

42:31

training, improving the quality of

42:33

your life. Yeah. There's this

42:36

weird cultural pressure, like, training

42:38

isn't supposed to be fun. Training is

42:40

supposed to hurt, you know, you're supposed to push

42:42

yourself through this. And

42:44

I'm like, Yeah. A little bit. A little bit. Like, I I

42:46

expect to hurt some. I

42:48

expect, you know, that there will be times that are

42:50

not fun, and I manage

42:52

that. But I'm

42:54

paying to do this. Like, I'm not even, like, getting paid to

42:56

do it. Like, I am paying to do this.

42:58

Like, this is this is recreational.

43:02

Yeah. So

43:04

if I'm always in pain and

43:06

never having fun from the experience

43:08

or arranging it in such a

43:10

way, then what am I doing? Right.

43:12

Yeah. I had a great moment realizing that when I, like, I

43:15

woke up recently and I'm like, my pack didn't hurt. I

43:17

wasn't snazzy, and I was like, Oh

43:19

my god. This feels so good.

43:22

And I was like, what if I just felt

43:24

good all

43:26

the time? I'm like, I forgot that that's an idea that I could

43:28

pursue. That's like And

43:30

I won't feel like I'm missing out on anything

43:32

because I'll just feel really good.

43:35

Like, you know, I've been you

43:38

can just kind of deal with the suffering for so

43:40

long and you actually forget that that's an option

43:43

for you. Damn. That's good.

43:45

I mean, that is that's

43:47

good. My

43:48

drop. There's so much we forget when

43:50

we put ourselves down that path and stay there

43:52

for so long. Well, thank you

43:54

so much. It takes a lot. Excuse me. At least

43:56

when I look through my own training records, it takes a

43:59

lot when something like this happens especially over

44:01

years to kind of archeologize. I

44:03

guess, like, to dig through and kind

44:05

of pick out what was I thinking

44:07

through? What was what happened? What were

44:09

my what mistakes? What would

44:11

I do differently? And that was kind of

44:13

the last question I wanted to leave with, at

44:16

least last question for me, and then leave it

44:18

open for you if there's anything you wanna

44:20

share. But What would you do differently? Like knowing

44:22

the place that you're in now, the feeling

44:24

less pain, having learned what

44:26

you've learned, what

44:28

would you have done differently? Maybe back in August? Or

44:30

maybe not August? Because after a

44:32

year before then, anytime. Before then or after

44:34

then? Because, like, right after the event, Who

44:37

knows? It could have gone away in two

44:38

months. Like, there's so much we don't know. But what

44:41

would you

44:41

have changed

44:41

about this journey that you followed? I

44:44

think I would have taken

44:46

the suggestions from

44:48

from Jordan to, you know, pick

44:50

a lift where you don't feel any

44:53

pain. And I would have done that for a longer

44:55

amount of time. Because I

44:58

think, like I said earlier whenever I would have

45:00

the opportunity

45:02

to push, and to get back to where I thought I could be, it

45:04

wasn't productive. Like, there

45:06

is enough time for me to

45:08

squat and deadlift and bench and do

45:10

to jitsu. But I'm actually

45:12

robbing from myself if I try and

45:14

get there before the symptoms have

45:16

fully kind of

45:18

gone away. And I'm sure, you know,

45:20

this will be different for every back pain as such a, you know, diverse experience

45:22

for a lot of people. But, you

45:24

know, I would not have

45:27

kept myself in the paint pattern so think that really set

45:29

up a bad or a

45:31

really nonproductive experience

45:34

for my training. So I would

45:36

have taken the recommendation

45:38

to find things that I could do

45:40

without pain and

45:42

let that be calm a sense of normalcy

45:44

instead of just pushing it as soon as I

45:46

had the opportunity. So I would have

45:48

really eased up

45:50

on myself

45:52

and then like, okay, you there is gonna be a time for you to

45:55

get everything done. It's okay if it's not

45:57

right now. So I think when your

45:59

coach gives you their recommendation, of,

46:02

hey, you know, we need to take a couple weeks where it's really low

46:04

stress, like, do it because I think

46:06

it can be really useful. There will

46:09

be time for you to rebuild and

46:11

kinda get back to it. But once you kind of start to

46:13

teach yourself to tolerate that kind

46:15

of suffering,

46:16

I don't

46:17

actually think it's useful. Yeah.

46:20

Yeah. We teach ourselves

46:22

to tolerate it. Mhmm.

46:25

THROUGH. Yeah. And be open minded because you're

46:28

gonna spend some time

46:30

figuring

46:30

out things that you can do and things that

46:32

you can't do and those are gonna change

46:36

over time. Like things that used to be. You work really well.

46:38

Don't really for me anymore, and vice

46:40

versa. So,

46:42

like, give

46:44

yourself the time during a training session to know that you're gonna have to

46:46

explore a little bit, know that it's gonna

46:48

be different the next day,

46:51

and everything that you do to kind

46:53

of experiment is useful. But just kind of,

46:55

like we were talking about earlier, ease up

46:57

on the expectations. A lot more about being

47:00

curious knowing that it could be

47:02

really different over time. And make

47:04

sure you're

47:06

having you're creating a way for yourself to still have fun.

47:08

Like, I went through time where I was

47:10

just like, wouldn't wear my lifting shoes anymore?

47:12

I wear different shoes. Because

47:15

I was like, it needs to feel different. Like And I went

47:17

I started looking at the global gym because in that

47:19

environment, it's okay to

47:21

do silly things. And, you

47:24

know, do exercises that you think at one

47:26

point were ridiculous. But

47:28

in the barbell environment, you're like, no,

47:30

I must do squat bench press

47:32

dead lifting. If I don't do a

47:34

low bar squats, then I'm doing

47:36

suboptimal squats and just, like, change your

47:37

environment, like, you're gonna

47:40

be, like, breaking rules

47:42

and it's freaking fine. You're gonna curl in the squat rack. Yeah.

47:44

If you got a home gym, you're gonna

47:46

curl in the squat rack. It's just how

47:48

it's gonna

47:50

go.

47:51

Like, change your environment if you need to

47:53

be around different people if you need

47:55

to, like, don't, like,

47:58

put on this burden of if you don't love our squad, you're

48:00

useless. Like, that's not true. There

48:02

are a lot of different ways to accomplish

48:04

good

48:04

training. Kinda just thoughts

48:06

on where you are. Yeah. Thanks

48:08

for your questions.

48:09

Well, thank you. Nikki, I took a heck of a

48:11

lot away from this. I hope our audience does.

48:13

It has been a

48:15

pleasure. And I think we've got another podcast

48:17

here in about two weeks, so looking

48:19

forward to that.

48:20

Awesome. Thank you so much.

48:23

Take care.