0:09

Welcome to Be A Marriage Podcast! I'm

0:11

sooner a regular for Be A marriage.com

0:13

where we like talk about healthy evidence

0:15

based biblical advice for your sex life

0:17

and your marriage and I have an

0:19

amazing interview coming up with Lauren Rose

0:21

from Called To Peace Ministries and you

0:23

know what I've done. These interviews and

0:25

the past of women's stories who were

0:27

an abusive marriages and then they found

0:29

Freedom and Christ and they just underwent

0:31

Sony Horrible things especially with the Gothic

0:33

called people have really resonated the summer.

0:35

My most listen to podcasts and you.

0:37

Are going to want to listen to this

0:40

interview? It is just Awesome! So I'm. So

0:42

pleased she could join us but before we

0:44

get to her, I need to talk

0:46

about something that's been going. On since our

0:48

podcast two weeks ago. So two

0:50

weeks ago and J Stringer and

0:52

I were analyzing a clip from

0:55

a sermon that make it Church

0:57

Pastor Josh Howard Zinn gave Josh

0:59

Hamilton is the senior pastor Blake

1:01

Point Church in Rockwall, Texas near

1:03

Dallas. It's an S B C

1:05

church mega church with I believe

1:07

seven sites and he opened his

1:10

A sermon and back in February

1:12

with a two minute anecdotes which

1:14

he framed as a golden nugget

1:16

of marriage advice. Which summarize the marriage

1:18

and I did. they just hadn't Church and

1:20

g string and I talked about it. it

1:23

was. It was really problematic how written told

1:25

women that on his wedding night. So on

1:27

the husband's wedding night women were supposed to

1:29

stand where he tells you to stand. Where

1:32

would he tells you to wear an do

1:34

what he tells you to do an Jane

1:36

I talked about why that was problematic as

1:38

well as were other things that that howard

1:40

Sunset was problematic. Well. With,

1:43

I shared that clip on

1:46

social media and it went

1:48

Holy Viral! Seen by in

1:50

over two million people over

1:52

all of my platforms. it's

1:54

been covered in the news

1:56

on salon.com in the Dallas

1:59

and Houston. Papers in

2:01

several Christian papers. And

2:03

and big news sites and people

2:06

were just really revolted which made

2:08

me super happy. It's it's it's.

2:10

one of the few times that

2:13

I have seen the internet erupts.

2:16

In absolute discussed at the

2:18

same things. That. We've been calling out

2:20

for yourself. You know when it when

2:22

I think about the things that have encouraged me

2:24

in the past two years cause we've done several

2:26

bike as on her discouraged i feel it was

2:28

the fact the people doing it like when they

2:31

saw him say that and they understood yes this

2:33

is what she was been talking about this is

2:35

why she wrote the Great Sex Rescue because these

2:37

west is a so green in our culture but

2:39

I really wanted was what happened after that. Because

2:42

Josh Harrison put in a statement

2:44

saying that we had taken him out

2:47

of context that it was just

2:49

a joke, but. He. Never said it

2:51

was a joke. Is that as a golden negative

2:53

marriage advice and he never said. So.

2:55

Don't do. This now, don't try this

2:58

at home now. Obviously where does laughing

3:00

about it know he said.and. everybody laughed.

3:02

And then he went on with his

3:04

sermon about something totally different. The context

3:07

doesn't make it any better. And the

3:09

thing about a joke, if if you

3:11

want to call it that, is that

3:13

it's only funny if people agree with

3:16

the underlying premise. And the

3:18

underlying premise there is that women don't

3:20

like sex. And that women

3:22

are obligated to act like sex blow up

3:24

doll whether husband's act like porn. Directors.

3:27

Is a porn aside way of seeing

3:30

sex? It is not a biblical way

3:32

of seeing sex. and we know from

3:34

our research and the great Sex Rescue

3:36

that these types of messages the Joss

3:38

Gays are one of the huge reasons

3:40

why Evangelical women suffer from two to

3:42

to two and a half times the

3:44

rate of sexual pain disorders is the

3:46

general population. That's what the Obligation Sex

3:48

message does. We know that doing the

3:51

wedding night this way is one of

3:53

the reasons again that women have higher

3:55

rates of sexual paint. Disorders. We

3:57

know that these things are also linked to lower or.

4:00

There's a rates and for this matters

4:02

is as real world effects And that's

4:04

the point that we have been trying

4:06

to make over and over again for

4:08

years is that our words matter and

4:10

even if the women in his congregation

4:13

last, even if they believe those underlying

4:15

assumptions, it doesn't mean that they're not

4:17

being harmed by it. This is what

4:19

we found in our research is that

4:21

when you believe that these things are

4:24

true, it has effects on your body's

4:26

so even if the women last, it

4:28

still can. definitely. Have an effect

4:30

last Sunday. Just. Howard's and

4:33

issued. An apology of.

4:35

Sorts at his church.

4:37

He began this apology by railing against me,

4:39

not by name, but again saying that I

4:42

had taken him out of context and that

4:44

I hadn't said that it was a joke

4:46

and that he frequently. Just jokes. But.

4:49

Then he did say if you were hurts.

4:52

He apologized because he shouldn't have hurt you.

4:54

Which okay, but a real A

4:56

policy looks like this. I.

4:59

Know that What I said. Cause.

5:02

Harm to people and what I said

5:04

was wrong. What I said normalized the

5:06

point aside, style of relating it normalized.

5:08

Seen women as obligated to have sex

5:10

with their husbands is normalized. Men being

5:12

sex crazy sex monsters will women don't

5:14

want sex. It normalized the idea that

5:17

men don't have to do anything for

5:19

the wedding but can leave all of

5:21

them mental load and labor. It's a

5:23

hearse. All they have to do is

5:25

show up. It normalized really harmful gender

5:27

dynamics and as a pastor as did

5:29

not have done that and I am.

5:31

Now going to take some time to listen and

5:33

some. And to pray

5:36

about this because I made a misstep

5:38

that hurt people and that that. Hurt

5:41

the cause of priced in the eyes

5:43

of the world's and I'm sorry for

5:45

that. That's not what we heard. Instead,

5:48

he spent the rest of the sermon

5:50

explaining that Jesus ascended people and so

5:52

we should expect pastors to also a

5:55

sense people. And that that

5:57

is the way that Sauce operates is he

5:59

tells jokes. That people find offensive because

6:01

that way people enjoy the church

6:03

service and. They aren't board. I'm

6:06

gonna put a link to the sermon so the you

6:08

can see the whole thing. I'm anna linked to twitter

6:10

threat I did where you can see it's just part

6:13

of it but I want to focus in on a

6:15

couple the arguments he made and then we'll get to

6:17

our interview. So I think this is important. Here's.

6:20

The big thing does Howard's

6:22

and Field notes in that

6:24

apology sermon that Jesus offended

6:26

because he was. Fading. Injustice,

6:28

Not because he was perpetuating

6:31

it. And. Not sermon. Just

6:33

as the Jesus called people less a

6:35

bad names like a dog, he calls

6:37

and tells dogs he called other people,

6:39

broods of vipers And so you know,

6:41

seasons use this kind of hyperbolic language

6:43

and of Jesus was rude than it

6:45

should be. Obvious that pastors might do

6:47

that as well, and we shouldn't. We

6:49

shouldn't think that necessarily bad. But let's

6:51

zero in on what actually happened in

6:53

these two instances. The Josh his name,

6:55

it's the calling Gentiles Dogs comes from

6:57

the story, the Seer Phoenician one, and

6:59

in Matthew eighteen versus twenty one, twenty

7:01

eight and. It it's

7:03

a little bit unclear which is is actually

7:06

saying. There's some debate about how the word

7:08

the Jesus used was more like puppies and

7:10

I don't want to go into all that

7:12

when I want to go into was the

7:14

results of that conversation because after that this

7:16

woman asserts her desire to be part of

7:18

the blessing to be included in what Jesus

7:20

is doing to receive a miracle an even

7:22

though she was from a racial group that

7:25

was generally exclude it and see was a

7:27

woman, Jesus praises her to the skies for

7:29

wanting to be included and he elevates er

7:31

any grants her. Her request. And so

7:33

in the end, after this encounter, a

7:35

member of a Marsalis group was given

7:38

full equality and inclusion rather than excluded.

7:41

But. It's still. In.

7:43

His sermon though he took a group.

7:45

That was often abused women

7:48

and. He. Told a joke. Giving.

7:50

Golden Nuggets of Marriage advice that

7:52

further objectified and march last women

7:54

not that included them are lifted

7:57

them up. Now what about the

7:59

brute of vipers? See the called

8:01

it the Ferriss using the term as

8:03

well as whitewashed hims lots of other

8:05

things, the religious teachers because they were

8:08

acting unjustly, they were excluding people from

8:10

God's blessings. They were piling burdens and

8:12

not lifting a finger to help them.

8:15

And in both cases, Jesus was pleading

8:17

the case of the marginalized and trying

8:19

to stop. People from being excluded.

8:22

He was stopping injustice.

8:24

Jesus offended. Power Structures.

8:27

Joss offense when he

8:29

reinforces those same. Power

8:31

Structures Joss asked us.

8:34

To last at women be in. Porn

8:36

aside, Jesus called out the people objectifying

8:38

women. Both Jesus and Sauce offended people,

8:40

but one did it to free them

8:42

and the other did it to further

8:45

oppress them. just as then Went on

8:47

to say that there are people who

8:49

are actually offended on behalf of others

8:51

who aren't even being offended and that

8:53

this is terrible he treats. This is

8:56

if it's a bad thing for people

8:58

to be offended on behalf of others

9:00

who may not even minds. And yeah,

9:02

I just want to say. Very clearly

9:04

that yes Joss, I am offended. I'm

9:07

offended on behalf of the women in

9:09

your congregation even if they laughed because

9:11

I know what effect hearing these sorts

9:13

of things for years has on women's

9:15

We have studied it. We've seen higher

9:18

rates of sexual paint, lower orgasm rates,

9:20

and higher rates of abuse to be

9:22

offended on behalf of those who are

9:24

being oppressed. Even if you are not

9:26

being oppressed yourself is part of to

9:29

filling. Jesus calling to set the kept

9:31

is free. It's part of being his

9:33

hands and. Feet. In the world. In

9:36

the sermon, Sauce consistently uses Jesus

9:38

as a comparison to himself. He

9:40

talks about how Jesus was often

9:42

taken out of context and how the

9:44

demonic cancel law became after him

9:46

because of that. But Jesus was acting

9:48

for exactly the opposite notice and

9:50

aims as which I was in his

9:53

sermon. Jesus did not a sense

9:55

to make the gospel seemed cool. Jesus

9:57

offended because he was fighting and

9:59

justice. I. Hope

10:01

the Josh goes back and read the

10:03

Gospels again and really looks at why

10:06

Jesus offended people and look that who

10:08

it was the Jesus actually called out.

10:11

Because. If choice humbles himself, you may

10:13

see himself in the stories. But.

10:15

It won't be as the Jesus. Character. And.

10:18

I hope that the pastors who have been. Really?

10:21

Hounding me on social media about this

10:23

and it's really been only been pastors

10:25

and men from like point that's about

10:27

it who have been trying to defend

10:29

sauce. Out the is

10:31

some introspection to. Because. It

10:33

It's about time that the men. In

10:36

even sell clothes and and especially the

10:39

pastor's start realizing that women are not

10:41

the punch line of. Your. Point aside,

10:43

joke. As. Wanted

10:45

to say that. So thank

10:47

you everybody. For encouraging me by

10:49

helping the single barrel and by

10:51

seeing along with be horrible this

10:53

was. Please keep speaking out though

10:55

because it's gonna be a long

10:58

fight. But. People are seeing it. And

11:00

that's what's important. And now I want

11:02

to turn to learn Rose who is a

11:04

product of this kind of teaching in the

11:06

church. And let's see how it affected. Her

11:09

on I'm. Thrilled! To welcome on

11:11

the podcast today. So when he does has such

11:13

a great heart for what we do because she's

11:15

a very similar works for This is Lauren Rose

11:17

from Called To Peace Ministries. Am

11:20

so happy Be here today We are grateful

11:22

for your work is wow Sell his son

11:24

to be here! Yeah and I've done. I've

11:27

done a lot of podcasts for you and

11:29

I met you before on your side of

11:31

things are now you're coming to my side

11:33

of things but before we started with your

11:36

story to tell us a call to Peace

11:38

is your so called The does exist to

11:40

provide a compassionate, comprehensive crisis response those impacted

11:42

by domestic abuse or have I'd advocacy support

11:44

support groups in federal assistance and will also

11:47

help churches and other organizations learn how to

11:49

better respond. To those impact by domestic

11:51

abuse. Yeah. So that's great. See do

11:53

so much like advocacy and as case and

11:55

work to as well as really coming on

11:57

five victims. and yeah I'm really I really.

12:00

Hit. Your. Work but I know when

12:02

I was on a pike has to the while

12:04

ago you're telling me a little bit about your

12:06

story and I'm like oh my goodness like my

12:08

my listeners need to hear this because there's so

12:10

many similarities to what I hear every day. So.

12:13

Can. You tell us like how

12:15

you got sucked in see

12:17

really negative. Relationship.

12:19

Dynamics and abuse and as started even as a

12:21

kid didn't it? More

12:23

as a teenager. More so that

12:26

yes I will add my family

12:28

taking her since rallies twelve and

12:30

sell from there was home schooled

12:32

and then need joined the Bill

12:34

Gothard program when I was almost

12:36

seventeen years old. said before then

12:38

has led normal teenager you know

12:40

going through neural shuttle there's like

12:43

I'm and I entered into this

12:45

war at all like the colts

12:47

A mistake to do at this

12:49

like absolutely nothing by in that

12:51

world If you respond. Like that

12:53

your father seems and you're told the

12:55

eerie values sense actually Madame Bovary. When

12:58

I was seventeen and I learned that

13:00

girls weren't allowed to be educated, we're

13:02

not have friends in, are allowed to

13:04

listen to anything other than classical hims

13:06

and as like this is as head

13:08

and neck so mad like this, me

13:11

as ruining my life like I'm going

13:13

to get education and going to be

13:15

successful. I don't want anything to this.

13:17

I met him, I is just like

13:19

it's Hall he. This is such that

13:22

he thought his. The win me over and he

13:24

has I guess and how would you but he went to

13:26

do with your life. you know how do you had to

13:28

Were troubled youth and I so now I'm doing and I

13:30

mean school and I said this is what I'm going to

13:32

do He said well what are you going to get us

13:35

a one? Get my degree in Business management. And

13:37

this is or land an idiot and he

13:39

looked at me and he's a law. How

13:41

would you like to go here in be

13:43

able to really be successful? He needs what

13:45

I can do and I'm like no as

13:47

like nothing to do with him. So he

13:49

actually announced on the stage that evening and

13:51

for the twenty thousand people that I was

13:54

the most hard hearted, rebellious individual he had

13:56

ever bit more. Harm morning loot. Oh.

13:59

Yeah I said I was very kane

14:01

and made to feel horrible that I

14:03

wanted nothing to do this program. I

14:05

thought the education was horrible. I like

14:07

I don't understand how reading math is

14:09

either. Seven is an education are like.

14:12

This is this is an education. This is

14:14

your your make you study the bible like this

14:16

is gonna mess me up getting into college and

14:18

and like so i save money as a i'm

14:20

going to college and I'm out like sell alcohol

14:22

my heart and I like not mean nothing to

14:24

do with it feel something funny to is when

14:27

he met me at seventeen the other thing you

14:29

say what that is the I was the type

14:31

of girl that would destroy his whole programs and

14:33

like he just did not like me at all.

14:35

it's it's a lot of. The hands.

14:39

Of you see if. I

14:42

was very strong kinda. Like I would tell

14:44

you like it isn't I want nothing to do offense

14:46

like it. If you put me in here and like

14:48

my as you I will literally destroy you like nothing.

14:52

So I became a Christian at seventeen

14:54

you really sorry I love the lord

14:56

and really wanted to know him and

14:58

I'd be willing to conference in a

15:01

begins believe that it was put more

15:03

pressure on me that I had to

15:05

go into this program. To

15:07

be of all the christian and if I

15:09

wasn't going is is program. I no longer

15:11

love jesus so I wanted to be a

15:14

solid dog coming into the mission field and

15:16

I want to see a missionary like really

15:18

radical scenes and and started to. Get

15:20

Snow God and will soon enough ensued. Ideal

15:23

peeve as told. No need to go here

15:25

first because you'll be a better person. And

15:27

so I gave up my college education substance

15:29

and when it rains I've your P program

15:31

and eighteen years old ltd really all of

15:34

your side and for those are the world's

15:36

they remember I be a piece of Sandy

15:38

Happy people. So if you saw the documentary

15:40

sorry happy people, that's what we're talking about.

15:43

So. Is

15:45

my it is. I was in a program

15:47

for six weeks more I had to like

15:49

as really brainwashed I to listen to their

15:51

teachings every single day I can only talk

15:53

to my parents eighty minutes a day with

15:56

not allowed not allowed any outside influences and

15:58

was really really scenes actually my. And

16:00

then I perceive interviewed Elissa. Wow.

16:02

Serbian. or of new

16:04

not characters. Pearce. And mall

16:06

where directions yet, they made me feel

16:09

like I was a really horrible person

16:11

and began securing a lot of seem

16:13

in my life. Be made me

16:15

feel really afraid of the world's and

16:18

afraid of and somehow. They if I

16:20

didn't follow all their programs and going

16:22

to marry a really abuses man was

16:24

into porn and that I was just

16:26

finity not precious and it was just

16:28

I. I walked away feeling so low

16:30

in I bought into their program in

16:32

order to find my it into the

16:34

and worse in I am Dunks House

16:36

so I went all out. I presume

16:38

that to their second phase of their

16:40

program that you also had to be

16:42

isolated from the world for five weeks

16:44

and then went into they are college.

16:46

they have a bible college and so.

16:48

I got my degree in their mother college

16:51

in the book counseling and had planned. To

16:53

be a missionary? Romania. So yeah

16:55

that was i have very brainwashed into

16:57

it went gung ho into it and

16:59

just with searching for thousand worth after.

17:01

Really being beat down. And

17:03

me to feel their eyelids birth nothing unless I

17:05

did all of their principles and did everything right.

17:08

And nobody would want me a marriage unless I

17:10

did everything they said. Rights and

17:12

People think this is friends. And

17:15

I mean I blp was friends with the

17:17

thing as the people that got into it

17:19

got into that from normal searches you know

17:21

because friends were going to it or either

17:23

like it was it was all in all

17:26

throughout searches like we're people in our home

17:28

schooling group in my town like that My

17:30

kids grew. Up with who were in I

17:32

Blp. so if if. You look at, I

17:35

know friends who were in it, so it

17:37

seems friends, but it is if you were

17:39

an evangelical circles. it was actually. Quite

17:41

com and you can you.

17:43

Get sucked in very slowly like we still

17:45

won or search the beginning and then you

17:47

get so sucked in you can even attend

17:50

a normal church anymore. Most of them did

17:52

hot church or in that going to and

17:54

eighty I church because you no longer could

17:56

even fit in with normal christian like is

17:59

just your hands. You were long

18:01

skirt, fewer court chef and you are

18:03

no youth group and anybody wheezing. Youth

18:05

group was very secular worldly so we

18:08

were very sheltered, very secluded so you

18:10

get sucked in very slowly and then

18:12

eventually for you know it you. Your.

18:15

Isolated from the horn term world. right?

18:17

I can see taking eating ambivalent counseling course.

18:20

And. Looking back, what

18:22

do you think of what you were taught?

18:25

Oh. Goodness while I read a lot of

18:27

the pros lox i letter read a lot

18:29

the he those bucks I did take law

18:31

one I want to wanted to firm up

18:34

at college law and he loved it. I

18:36

thought I'd about later it was actually instrumental

18:38

in based on offer in quartz site a

18:40

medical corps very interesting but everything was very

18:43

like and the bible. I did six and

18:45

theology courses and I hired a cheater from

18:47

the seminary locals se seminary, bottles, injury and

18:49

ice that education they are still that was

18:52

gay but it was a lot of studying

18:54

their material. I studied literally. Their findings

18:56

will seminar their basic similarity repay us.

18:58

I have done their counseling seminar. I

19:00

studied every piece of material ever written

19:02

by them and read on it. so

19:04

I memorize all of it and then

19:06

had to write how I made applicable

19:09

to malaise. By yeah,

19:11

this is. At I would

19:13

say it's other shifted my.

19:16

My. Mental thinking to be very

19:18

bring last as it is the right

19:20

way to. To. Go with you. don't

19:22

really know anything else at this point like

19:24

this is all year learning all your breathing

19:27

and you have your own language, your own

19:29

way of communicating and the christian community. Yeah,

19:31

and it's all about you need to follow

19:33

our exact rules or else you're not under

19:35

the umbrella protection and Satan can get out

19:38

you. So it's not. It's not. It's not

19:40

really Christian and five both Jesus as on

19:42

of a living out with the Holy spirit.

19:44

It really is just about following. These.

19:47

Rules? Yeah, and it makes you. Feel

19:49

like it's a few based or like isn't. Don't

19:51

do these things seeking will destroy you if you

19:53

don't do this in this is how you're gonna

19:55

end up in marriage. If you don't do this,

19:57

this is high. Your friends are gonna make you.

20:00

Destroyed in a keen your i have your allies

20:02

in the suffering so it's no called the be.

20:05

A Way to success to life is

20:07

basically what they're much less or new

20:09

approach and virtue True success. And so

20:11

he was basically like avoiding suffering like

20:13

you even read. Told the story of

20:15

Job. Like he says a job

20:17

actually is he was punished because his

20:20

children curse.and the reason why his tutoring

20:22

curse died because Joe wasn't very involved

20:24

father so there's always a in Joseph

20:26

was the reason my he's from the

20:28

pet is because his bragging to there's

20:31

always an explanation to wow these people

20:33

suffer. They did something wrong So any

20:35

suffering like cancer anything is all your

20:37

fault. Everything is on you if you

20:39

do these things. He. Will have

20:41

success is to divorce. There's. Not

20:44

enough of your snow infertility. You

20:46

don't walk through these things you

20:48

are getting good health you through

20:50

their health program they have is

20:52

he like they're literally taking control

20:54

to avoid any aspect is suffering

20:56

in so even. When you're

20:58

younger puts a lot of few in you to

21:00

think of. Oh wow if I do, These things

21:02

and will be destroyed. You don't have

21:04

enough life experience to even. Understand it

21:07

is still. ah yes that would

21:09

be my kind of you have

21:11

that. right? Right as he

21:13

so them off the counseling program. a

21:15

house in after that before you met

21:17

the guy that you were going to

21:19

marry. Before we get that though I

21:22

would have say our sponsors we have

21:24

such an exciting sponsor for this podcast.

21:26

The Kingdom Girls Bible from Zondervan is

21:28

an Ivy Bible is supposedly for girls

21:30

late ages, eight to twelve or even

21:33

teen girls. but honestly we started talking

21:35

about this and are patron group and

21:37

home honey of the adult women have

21:39

gotten it's I can't tell you how.

21:41

Excited I am about this bible.

21:44

First of all, it is absolutely

21:46

beautiful. The illustrations are lovely, but

21:48

the main thing about it's is

21:51

that whenever a woman is mentioned

21:53

in the bible, there's a full

21:55

page spread on her with wonderfully

21:58

racially sensitive diagrams. and the. Stories

22:00

of These women. So girls, when they

22:02

read the bible, they're good to see

22:04

themselves included in it. I just think

22:06

about the power of that for your

22:08

daughters. So check out The Kingdom Girls

22:10

Bible. The link is in the podcast

22:12

note for you can get it and

22:14

see more and see the beautiful illustrations.

22:16

It's just and credible. And of course

22:18

we also want to thank our patrons

22:20

who do so much to support. The

22:22

work begins as little as five dollars

22:24

a month or they can give more

22:26

than that to as that letters do

22:28

what we're doing as well. They get to

22:30

join our mailing Facebook group and get unfiltered

22:33

podcasts and more and so you can join

22:35

as well. That link is also in the

22:37

podcast notes, or if you want to give

22:39

more to some of the big research things

22:41

that were doing and some of the big

22:43

things that are going to get into peer

22:45

reviewed journals. If you're in the Us, you

22:47

get tax deductible receipts through the Good Fruit

22:49

Faith initiative of the Pasco Foundation and so

22:52

he can check that out too. Well, To.

22:54

That's like his father and my story.

22:57

Fight. I guess cap hearted I

22:59

is. I really started. I'd like

23:01

to see him appreciate seventeen and

23:03

guy like me through this, which.

23:06

Is really amazing. Like and.

23:08

Seeing all these things, But.

23:10

At the same time I fear is swinging know

23:12

something's not right with it was a lot of

23:14

frustration of a distance and eight dislike in the.

23:17

World. It felt like it least conflicting with

23:19

each other. Since I don't have any other

23:21

way than the Holy spirit is certain to

23:23

speak to me. Something's wrong. A dissident right

23:26

by your actions hold. Something wrong with me to even

23:28

feel this way. They. Begin to suppress necklaces and

23:30

suppressing eating the Holy spirit. See me

23:32

because I cheat. Food. Leave it

23:34

all out without your knowledge spirits And then

23:36

I began seeing an hour in prayer every

23:38

day of like what thoughtful media when I

23:40

don't regret I actually really happy I did

23:42

that and I began. Seeking. God

23:45

and In in experiencing. Died

23:47

in this time and like really getting

23:49

to know it's hearts and pro my

23:51

story it I had blocked memories from

23:53

a childhood sexual assault, really horrific events.

23:55

Went for states Thomas Association and nice

23:58

yes and lots of my mind. And

24:00

like through prayer and fasting like the words

24:03

like products my mind and the noise like

24:05

I'm ready for each Now he died of

24:07

a fast and pray incisive preying on the

24:09

okay died and Rayford say since I had

24:12

my first flashback inserted to deal with this

24:14

new might leave me that they understand the

24:16

next counseling is considered horrible in this organization

24:18

like. Horrible. It would destroy

24:20

it. You know law the any counseling. And

24:22

said these people like don't don't go

24:25

that way so I wasn't allowed to

24:27

talk to anybody, I just in my

24:29

own turn. Time in prayer is how

24:31

I learned to work soon. These horrific

24:33

flashbacks that was terrible. I had Pts

24:35

and I'm literally spend hours and pray

24:38

everyday just trying to figure out the

24:40

letting the. Lord's A tooth and bring hearing

24:42

to my heart and life to. I'm against

24:44

know that heart a begin to believe and

24:46

know he's going to need loving kind. And.

24:49

So I was very conflicted in things,

24:51

but. And. That kind of. What?

24:53

Happened near and sell I met

24:55

Bill Gothard. Okay so I was

24:57

sitting in a conference and it

24:59

we those yearly. Conferences like.

25:02

And Five Thousand people on this point? No longer

25:04

Twenty Thousand. Were doing in four different

25:06

separate. Color. Been a sense and I'm sitting

25:08

there anything with remaining government and I went

25:10

to a missionary and I just felt like

25:12

Guileless Begins by heart and St. Louis to

25:14

work with them. as an author that it

25:16

it's really your well for me or with

25:18

them. Once you make the latter comes on

25:20

me and asked me because if you look

25:23

into heaven and earth make it happen so

25:25

are you are I see him and my

25:27

sisters and hello to him. I think he

25:29

started on my sister. I walk up to

25:31

my say hey i'm worried is nice to

25:33

meet you and he said and he just

25:35

sits hello in there staring. At mean he said

25:37

how would you like to come work with or mean by

25:39

Vermin. An hour. I

25:42

would have. Liked to self that's how

25:45

I ended up with build author it is

25:47

I that whole incidents and then I worked

25:49

for him and he really took a liking

25:51

to me from the very beginning and he

25:54

was basically started asking us for story than

25:56

Sussman is an Iowa talking and are like

25:58

he's like it was aiming have a testimonial

26:00

net and like all you can hear the

26:03

cries and like raid my and I studied

26:05

all material inside an hour I can tell

26:07

you a story of how I place my

26:09

life for every area or he talks about

26:12

and so he started noticing those things and

26:14

he's like oh my goodness so he pulled

26:16

me aside he like i'm extremely impressed with

26:18

you I will you stay here and I

26:21

want you to be actually my sister He's

26:23

a guy wants to be or series is

26:25

no longer ministry am I oh hell she's

26:27

like considered We have elite like. When

26:30

your selected by you like that in time

26:32

I'm like I must be worth something. I.

26:34

Wish he were something because I felt

26:36

like I was worth. Nothing. Still

26:38

compare disorganization. beat me down on the time

26:41

with we got him and so yes me

26:43

pre to gather and I pray with him

26:45

and we get up You accept. Me and

26:48

he's like. I can tell you really know

26:50

god when you pray. I felt the holy

26:52

spirit com and I'm so accuses touched heaven

26:54

like isolate it was that cuts through like

26:56

whoa yeah. I do know that and walk through

26:58

the party's. My life and eight I know

27:00

him I walk with god he's a human

27:02

human old staff girl in an had this

27:04

much fellowship of the gone a long long

27:06

time and as a crew sc and he

27:08

went tell me your name he says she's

27:10

from the nine you in our i'm like

27:12

okay he's like will seen I had fellowship

27:14

together and I just never had that solicit

27:16

the plenty body else that whoa. Okay

27:19

and then for context here. But.

27:21

Also, a third is not married and at this

27:23

point you were how old. I was twenty one

27:26

and he was seventy two. Twenty. One

27:28

So it's okay, Though. He

27:30

invite me right up into Little Blue Car

27:32

which is a big deal. And hands

27:34

me he opened. Letter is the

27:36

sweetest and a certain read it and

27:39

an awesome around and say something inside

27:41

me screens as the holy spirit I

27:43

like this is inappropriate or like something's

27:45

going on between me and a woman

27:47

and I don't know what it is

27:49

as likely something is. Wrong.

27:52

Silent. To some I said, julie read this

27:54

letter to shreds for you. And

27:56

he's like no me takes it and he

27:58

snatches in up my hand. And before

28:00

you dare devil I lifted the back

28:03

and we see that name anus as

28:05

Meg Meg Meg Meg Meg who's Mack

28:07

So today layer of in his office

28:09

again and I'm watching him flirt with

28:11

all these young girl He flirts with

28:13

them, he delights in nam and I'm

28:15

screaming at this is wrong with this

28:18

is not okay As a guy I

28:20

don't know why is going on here.

28:22

Whoa! What's happening? I hear the lord

28:24

feet to me and my shirt. That

28:26

says, I've seen everything here and Sunday I

28:28

use in court to testify against them. are

28:31

Alive! And I just

28:33

had done nothing hurts and international buffer

28:35

that I'm actually childish sexual survivor. Some

28:37

point he decides I can go home

28:39

and no longer reminds him of this

28:41

old stuff girl I'm gonna send me

28:43

home for ain't saying And he decides

28:46

he's gonna do something. With me or sexual

28:48

abuse on it was for. Reset Horrific

28:50

He told me I sinned against

28:52

died when I was sexually abused

28:54

and mean he just out on

28:57

my knees and confess my sin

28:59

in been abused He's like with

29:01

spread his legs and make me

29:03

how each how the story. Famous

29:05

spirit Isis that he was wasting after

29:08

me like this is a great like

29:10

he's like thing as to me. And

29:12

like he would say to me is I'm sensing

29:14

that. Some guessing he can tell I'm sensing the

29:16

cinema comfort when he likes. You know you should

29:18

never. Told the people details of the story that.

29:21

The. Way you feel like killing Beach House. He

29:23

likes the i Don't Have Iowa Khatami be

29:25

the haters not triggered by them like heat

29:27

of the think that thoughts in he could

29:29

handle it because I'm never had sex with

29:32

a woman and because of that ever have

29:34

sex with off. Oh. My

29:36

mom's. F O in it's terrible.

29:38

He tells me the reason I feel

29:40

pain in my heart is because I

29:42

am to the relentless suffering It because

29:44

it is. I had not made a

29:46

list of gratefulness. Seismic lifted him benefits

29:48

of being abused as a child. I

29:50

told that I was had a worldly

29:52

mindset because I was more concerned with

29:54

the things are the world and that's

29:56

why the pain hurt. If I didn't

29:59

had a special the mindset that it

30:01

wouldn't hurt to be in a hard

30:03

to remember these things are this year

30:05

So mindset would say that I am

30:07

so focused I'm. Cranky. when

30:09

he's given me through that. I wouldn't help him

30:11

though. I want to. I wanted to pause here

30:13

from his decisions. Her refer good God Gothard said

30:15

to you and this is over the top. But.

30:19

I've also heard so many.

30:22

Pastoral. Biblical counsellor saying similar things

30:24

to women. Oh, it's

30:26

not. You not maybe to this level

30:28

by to say the reason that you kick

30:30

over what happens is because you. Know you

30:32

you don't have a great for spirits. It's

30:34

because you know you haven't fully forgiven. It's

30:36

because you're carrying bitterness around like the problem

30:39

is all was on you. The problem, The

30:41

reason that you're still upset As because or

30:43

something wrong with the As. Even though Gothard

30:45

was like over the top. This

30:48

is theory com in when

30:50

people go to unlicensed counseling.

30:53

Yes, absolutely. It's because they can't deal of

30:55

suffering and they don't have an accurate for

30:57

been perception of yeah. Three on it's wrong

30:59

because it denies the fact that we live

31:01

in a fallen world. And there

31:03

is physiological effect on of of going

31:06

through abuse. It does hurt or hurt

31:08

because we weren't designed to live in this

31:10

world. It does her even that you are

31:12

human and is actually a lovely better deal.

31:14

It's one of her books that she users

31:16

and as he does not change is about

31:18

how that we were accused of bitterness when

31:20

actually job in everybody else cried and to

31:22

even Jesus fact. It's normal to

31:25

sit and suffering and feel pune as

31:27

part of signing Jesus and we as

31:29

christians want or think things they all

31:31

knew. You. Consulting firm that he should

31:33

be over it. You see if you're selfish.

31:36

And you are helping stuff in your divorce. You.

31:38

Been moved on. like what's wrong

31:40

with less them and move on.

31:42

No. You. Shut it down. I

31:44

won't tell you what happened to me

31:46

and gonna get there but it will

31:49

destroy your life. It well because you

31:51

have to feel the pain, you have

31:53

to walk through sufferings to get over

31:55

it and to grieve it all out

31:57

into Move Fourteen. Healing and homeless. And if

31:59

you. He. Would be back. At.

32:02

Dinner. Break it mindset. So it it

32:04

drove me to believe that Alpina suffering

32:06

is my fault and the locker got

32:08

worse. I stopped counting with him because

32:10

one night he grabbed me pull me

32:12

under his suit jacket in try to

32:14

kiss. Me: As throw my

32:16

tracks. Doubt I'm an

32:19

Only here and I thought because I'm

32:21

thought this means godly irons because that's

32:23

terrific block which one is, it's the

32:25

one that killed his were all every

32:27

me a bottle and rather than. I

32:31

thought that eyes responsible for tinting a family

32:33

mean I've felt. Summary: Heck so I left

32:35

him for a law that night I said

32:37

the high see take away the pain the

32:40

prefer it for our a silly the words

32:42

with me and said if he had gone

32:44

and I never felt team a hurry get

32:46

it? I don't believe that god will always

32:48

yelling people I was stuck in a situation

32:51

I didn't know how I was trapped here

32:53

and made it to your about a stay

32:55

at her course because he told me to

32:57

make vowels and daughters three work my hands

32:59

of I leave So I've. Made my

33:01

bow The dod to stay here for

33:04

two years so I'm trapped. His anger

33:06

is keen and can't function in I'm

33:08

just and be destroyed so he's going

33:10

to punish me his way that punishing

33:12

you and city need to the mail

33:14

room and all is said stuff so

33:16

casual me I move forward but the

33:19

psychological damage of that. Remain.

33:21

In my Life For years show.

33:26

Yeah. Then I met my now

33:28

Vince has been there in at

33:30

this point and so brainwashed by

33:32

principles and night. Just some caution

33:34

that this is a bad person

33:36

for me and you start seeing

33:38

evidence he seems. To

33:41

be guy like this is indicating there's.

33:44

This is indicating that when this man

33:46

is upset, doesn't get his way, he's gonna

33:49

yell at me and angry like I just

33:51

are seen on the states and I'm

33:53

like well I have to and that's right

33:55

and they. Basically to hold the i

33:57

need to follow biblical principles and.

34:00

Having Friday and Fi or anything just like

34:02

a Mains, Any fear and follow these principles

34:04

will be successful. Marriage Like I've been taught,

34:07

that there's no suffering. Having. I

34:09

do. All right and who's and who's teach

34:11

See this while using this red flags from

34:14

this guy is the guy Tell you this.

34:16

There is just the community that you're in

34:18

the guy, the community. Everything like a means

34:20

of mental alter my world that I live

34:22

it like this. How we live

34:24

jumble human suffering. We believe in just suppressing

34:27

it all. An email, the right things and

34:29

God will bless the rewards is long as

34:31

I have my parents blessing and do everything

34:33

they say. The by the premises will go

34:35

well for me. Cel. Did your parents

34:37

know him? They saw him and they didn't

34:39

see the red flags. Know

34:41

they didn't And yet I told him

34:44

that no, I

34:47

don't believe and long courtship and you

34:49

get married very quickly so that it's

34:52

amazing. Easily seen him that together six

34:54

times shell yeah the point: Courtship got

34:56

married very quickly and began noticing something

34:58

was wrong immediately. but this point divorce

35:01

is not an option. like. None.

35:03

At all like you as I is

35:05

is not and I don't even understand

35:07

the word abuse or anything. This having

35:09

my home by an organization we are

35:11

tossed the mission into bay and all

35:13

things all things at all times. So

35:15

when I didn't do what that person

35:18

said. I. Was threatened like

35:20

physically threatened, called vulgar and

35:22

that says. Sex. These you

35:24

never seen. No no matter if you're

35:27

recovering from how their no matter what. Like

35:29

that's Nine arson and then I have

35:31

scripture read to me to tell me that

35:33

it's my fault and I don't love that

35:35

and is always my fault. And then I

35:38

just don't love.enough in my heart is dying

35:40

inside and I just literally wanted I

35:42

like I don't wanna live in this anymore.

35:44

It's so radically painful and like how come

35:47

there's so much pina my life as I'm

35:49

done everything right wise. It's so painful like

35:51

and I'm I'm going to details of

35:53

be abused. But it was basically about

35:55

power and control With everything has to

35:58

be about them being the upper piercing

36:00

and they control every aspect my life.

36:02

They had a final say, Oh new

36:05

Blaze. Whole. Within a few mercosur

36:07

the womb. I mean owning allowed

36:09

to volunteer really outside the home

36:11

without permission at you. Everything is

36:13

controlled, friends, everything and their punishment

36:15

given if you don't do the

36:17

right things. googling. I'm like. Help

36:20

for my marriage and I found a domestic

36:22

violence empowers hello And I'm like, well, every

36:24

single one of these things are in my

36:26

life and in my marriage. Or.

36:28

Are they are on the but they're supposed to

36:30

be controlled. I. Was sort of build

36:33

author that sometimes you're thirty may slap

36:35

your crossed the face is a way

36:37

to punish you and you are a

36:39

chisel with you or he was a

36:41

humorous and I was the diamonds what

36:43

I saw and so he's basically beating

36:45

me not physically but he a I've

36:47

been through physical abuse bash to bring

36:49

out the Church of Christ and me.

36:51

So I'm thinking as a good christian

36:53

Isis is take the sunlight died can

36:55

for me to them as of Christ

36:57

and I get. For. About three

36:59

years not like a key. do that

37:01

anymore. Not. I did key I

37:03

wanted I have become I'm ready to

37:05

just die like I It's I'm dying. Nobody

37:07

will believe me. I don't even know what

37:10

to do like Aids is not normal On

37:12

for my thesis a song floor numbers

37:14

I I just crying on the jesus and

37:16

obligations to tell me I don't I don't

37:19

know to do on the word like God

37:21

spoke to me again and end.said to

37:23

me go to recover angry stop word. Anglia

37:26

Okay, that's weird. I don't like the

37:28

site and there was part one of

37:30

make story member Mack. The. Girl

37:32

they eat Tommy remind him of he

37:34

asked to marry her. When. She was

37:37

twenty one and he was succeed. You. So

37:40

I got in touch with her as

37:42

a guinea touch with that girl I

37:44

like. I know her, I read her

37:46

letters, I know this girl. He isn't

37:48

enough. Only I knew within me everything

37:51

I had heard like all access to

37:53

was true because all it costs insult

37:55

towards my husband in my marriage was

37:57

true. Everything and Zola build authored and.

38:00

You've already on Girl was

38:02

true. I wasn't ages rebellious.

38:04

define it. messed up individual.

38:06

Maybe it was all is truth and I know one of

38:08

the. Moon. Suddenly anymore I just. Screamed.

38:10

Out so loudly leader like death or lively

38:13

and need die if I continue to suppress

38:15

always keep live in the city. Marks imagine

38:17

I connected along with their mothers and she

38:19

like he got a gun therapy he got

38:21

a therapy right now and so I went

38:24

to therapy just to deal with the sexual

38:26

abuse memories that as Bilbao for counseling mean

38:28

and that's all I do it.weight has like

38:30

Bill offer never abused me. A walk in

38:33

there are like only a male counsellor a

38:35

list in his seventies and like to. I'm

38:37

very against therapy and I'm like he had

38:39

a is Indiana. Like okay I'll be okay,

38:41

close and it's point I don't like. The

38:44

locker Tommy a therapist would have ruined me

38:46

actually asked me to think my parents in

38:48

Oregon me therapy so I I was very

38:50

phrase but I walked in an alley and

38:52

desperate for healing com hear about I do

38:54

not abuse me risk on how about what

38:56

he did to me and counseling and so

38:59

we started unraveling that and after six months

39:01

of unraveling that it was just like Oleson

39:03

the like bombs went off and eyes like.

39:06

Oh my goodness and been sexually abused

39:08

Him. I mean, Subsidies.

39:11

As a kind like. An unknown? Have

39:13

you that nerdy just describe and incidents and

39:15

he's never told me. He. Like these

39:17

things happen in your marriage. I wish

39:19

I never knew they were wrong. Like

39:22

what Bill Gothard it to me and said to me

39:25

is wrong. In these things

39:27

are wrong and music was the truth and

39:29

has like. My. Marriage is a

39:31

d Sets. Of the

39:33

have to say that like actually

39:35

forces nelson. And. Sell as

39:37

a camera Say that in guinea do everything I

39:40

can an and fixes the key Do this

39:42

to my my town. And

39:44

show me I refuse. I began doing

39:46

a lot more therapy and doing a

39:48

lot more. Come on the lines of

39:50

been sexually abused my marriage and just

39:52

prices Do that because Build After taught

39:54

me in my brain that I'm responsible

39:56

for this. So when my husband uses

39:58

me. Hundred a remarkable I

40:01

was also for mans like never to say.

40:03

No, I'm still able whenever they

40:05

might like of. I don't know

40:07

any difference. It's. Written My heart

40:09

is not was to be this way because

40:11

it's not thought design. I don't have

40:13

words to say This Is wrong. Because.

40:16

Skirt Fisher and all these Christian teachings

40:18

are telling me this is right, Something's

40:20

wrong with you. A little

40:22

your. So miserable inside Really, I can't

40:24

listen this anymore and so I just

40:26

kept do not. In the meantime I

40:28

joined the lawsuits against Buffers indo number

40:30

four and then I ended up meeting

40:32

my marriage. Finally I showed up at

40:34

my cancers office with a Bruce and

40:36

as like a much my medical doctor

40:38

and I'm like and I and I

40:40

need help and my churches point have

40:42

emerged counseling was still trying to think

40:44

the marriage because I say wanted to

40:46

see the marriage and these either and

40:49

it it is like it's all justified

40:51

and is like escalating on light. And

40:53

heat and so my therapist at the time

40:55

puts me in touch with joy like peace.

40:57

very weak force where she lives and as

41:00

like Joint Force the honorary that could york

41:02

their copies issue and that and so I'll

41:04

winter. It's me tiny office and I so

41:06

cheap and for what's happening and she show

41:08

me the power control. Well I'm like but

41:11

these things are supposed to be controlled by

41:13

god. And a by your authorities

41:15

use like another not nine a Christian nearest

41:17

not at all. But she starts taking. Scripture

41:20

and showing me. As part

41:22

and and does hurt for marriage and

41:24

she starts validating that one. I've been

41:26

through his abuse and that I'm living

41:28

in fear and that these things are

41:30

not okay and she's breathing me and

41:33

is she said he me questions about

41:35

it and helpless. For. The first

41:37

time I like ice. any feel like.

41:39

Somebody. Believes me and I have

41:41

words to say this is abuse

41:44

and this is not okay like

41:46

this is not got sir in

41:48

according to scripture you think shouldn't

41:50

be happening self A. Dot

41:52

and had she that has made shirts and

41:54

she met with my pastors and it began

41:56

explaining to them. a d of my therapist

41:58

met with one another. If you did, you

42:00

were getting her out of here. So they

42:02

got me out of my marriage in helped

42:05

me get this shirts the church to the

42:07

oh good okay and so i'd ask your

42:09

said to me he like i know many

42:11

that use you and life but i want

42:13

you to now that not all name or

42:16

abusive and desire to her you and leave

42:18

the church. Or going stand by you lock with you,

42:20

keep you safe, As like wow moment

42:22

I really felt the mercy and love of

42:24

God and has like this is amazing because

42:27

I would never even less and less matrix

42:29

Tommy to I didn't know how to listen

42:31

to anything unless authority Tommy to do some

42:33

and he still I didn't the last it

42:36

was dropped in the complications and mean I

42:38

had a judgment put on me that are

42:40

left or sanctioned from excuse Me if two

42:43

hundred and twenty thousand dollars by Gothard had

42:45

testified against him in court and then I

42:47

went home and file for divorce a week

42:49

later shell. Men: Are you

42:51

working for Called the Peace but it's

42:54

been a long journey weekend and hang

42:56

on a buyer. it's about him wary

42:58

of. I'm into place of freedom after

43:00

such. Abuse and just being

43:03

all this is.heart was really

43:05

challenging. Walking through all this because

43:07

I was like there's certain points even though I

43:09

knew guy is like. An thing I

43:11

want to be a christian As a

43:13

this is christianity. I want anything to do

43:16

with this. Land and get a license

43:18

to mental abuse women that he died

43:20

even three Something so horrible at marriage

43:22

like fighting, I'd treat me like I

43:24

sort of asking. And questioning those things?

43:27

And he still people and men that

43:29

were delayed. That's of truth to my

43:31

life like a pastor and through joy

43:34

same you know this is not bad

43:36

start like Jesus was from across a

43:38

religious people. Religious people destroyed

43:40

and killed Jesus. You mustn't be

43:42

the center out there is a fierce you

43:45

assess. The solution. So he

43:47

understands suffering and he understanding.

43:49

The trade portrayed by those who professional bad

43:51

live nothing of it behind closed doors And

43:53

so he was like Isaac a kid I

43:55

am and things you and so true that

43:57

I'm in your heart in finding that you.

44:00

The Interstate either. Cement feel like

44:02

to be betrayed by those who use the

44:04

word of god she's depressed few and to

44:06

control you and use it as a sword

44:08

to literally slinky it and sell me nuts

44:11

what they did. A Jesus the he's the

44:13

word a guy gets and failure is been

44:15

and journey and me for finding that her

44:18

and I appreciate your buck and. That's because

44:20

it's so. Read it and scripture and

44:22

so read it and got hurt in

44:24

so much about teaching job offers Sumner

44:26

keeps two point five million people been

44:28

through it must be counselors and christian

44:30

and leaders and things like that and

44:32

pastors and so so many people taking

44:35

on these use and the created such

44:37

amazing wonderful young people out that shining

44:39

star on the stage all time getting

44:41

my testimony and telling about be things

44:43

that the never thought reticent and up

44:45

and my for me like eventually. He

44:47

destroyed me. Because. I'm a

44:49

new I think they'd be was a

44:52

didn't care and care of them and

44:54

and carrier a subpoena all their health

44:56

and an emmy refused to say anything

44:58

they don't. And they just lost. It

45:00

all happened. But. He i

45:02

so many yeah person teaching people just

45:04

don't evaluate them and look at them

45:06

and say where does this leave women.

45:09

What? It does hard for me. What is that's

45:11

heart for marriage? And that is

45:13

looking at the truth of scripture

45:15

and what guy really? Max.the gotta

45:17

love nothing should make us feel

45:19

oppressed and likely he died because

45:21

knows his word. Yep! Yep!

45:24

Exactly how he just says for our

45:26

listeners. We. Had Emily from Driving Forward

45:28

on last year year and half ago about

45:30

the Bill Gothard lawsuits is I will link

45:33

to that podcast the you can listen more

45:35

to her story of a being involved in

45:37

the lawsuit but that was thrown out because

45:39

that salute a simple as that. Know

45:42

the republicans, He was

45:44

other complications due to the lawsuit so is

45:46

even the next with my tastes and it

45:48

was it. It was a very complicated thing

45:50

and sui withdrew. It is a lot allowed

45:52

happening, a lot of going line inside. Stuff

45:55

with the liars are like a doesn't come

45:57

to an emmy. A really rough ride. And.

46:00

How. Are. Doing Things And so we chose

46:02

to drop a glossy due to complications

46:05

and then he countersued you. Well.

46:07

He actually put sanctions on us so

46:09

that it wasn't a countersuit. the basically

46:11

if you bought the it was a

46:13

sanction saying that we have lied and

46:15

so huge and approve isa Mason and

46:17

two hundred twenty thousand dollars with the

46:19

pain back for his lawyers say in

46:21

the sixers that thinks is demanding that

46:24

we pay him back and so there

46:26

is like eighty of us in a

46:28

lawsuit that he chose seven of us

46:30

from the number perfection So he went

46:32

after seven of us and the lawsuits

46:34

to get to have a testify in

46:36

court. And then that was. Emily

46:38

said that was a very healing experience. Was

46:40

testifying in court and is. It

46:43

wise for me I was very traumatized not

46:45

I'll be honest like I like having like

46:47

this before. I went up there and we

46:49

went right before meals using a number three

46:51

on seen a number force. The Jane Doe's

46:53

my first and then. That's when

46:56

the. As though for college

46:58

allow course they talk came in handy

47:00

because I started using all those methods

47:02

I learned their hit my mind on

47:04

this witness stand. Unlike. You

47:07

Do this. So it was interesting because

47:09

his representative Blaze Add and legal defense

47:11

attorney was really vicious I'm he wasn't

47:13

prepared and like he kept saying things

47:16

and then I remember he said something

47:18

and he thought he was that affect

47:20

me and and and number that part

47:22

in the last they were says illness

47:24

sympathy. Because. So that he doesn't

47:26

understand it until your life store He

47:28

asked me. you really believe this is

47:30

sexual abuse? You understand sexual abuse or

47:33

little boy you've got, you've got. I've

47:35

got you because I said yes sir.

47:37

Ideal. I like I'm it's hot, His

47:39

sexual, The survivors I know darn well

47:41

as Sex with You says other details

47:43

Sexual abuse by Bill Doctor because it

47:45

was unwarranted and then consistent. So therefore

47:47

by the very definition am I. it

47:49

is abuse. So what he was asked

47:51

anything like that and then trying to

47:53

hook piano and other stuff along the

47:55

lines. As saying that I was trying

47:57

to expose the last into the lawsuit. I

47:59

like. Any like the way he would

48:01

catch up with off guard and like I

48:03

was one point where he is like i

48:05

found this in a private we support group

48:07

and so you said this is so therefore

48:09

you're trying to expose him as a in

48:12

the have supported to i ever state fan

48:14

and my name. And he has

48:16

intercepted with say that and he was like

48:18

reading and gonna like no sir alec how

48:20

you answer me like says that statement is

48:22

that and he kept going on the other

48:25

doesn't see it with it suppose it's out

48:27

how to read it and that point that

48:29

he does so mad sorry yelling at the

48:32

judge and then the dad's friend taught in

48:34

the whole thing self it was a great

48:36

only like this is interesting I was there

48:38

he nerve wracking my are like was not

48:41

prepared and so basically I just tried to

48:43

show that I knew what I was. Talking

48:45

about I was prepared and trying

48:47

to. Make. Him a done because

48:49

he was young lad it shoes and I

48:52

knew the truth is summer than ally and

48:54

so mm I just feel like the holy

48:56

spirit hit me and I like I'm prepared

48:58

to fight. I. whatsoever.

49:01

And the and I felt guide to because

49:03

I felt like I stood for others and

49:05

head was right I had to nibble mackler

49:07

mine actually one motherless allowed to another person

49:09

macklin mean and I knew them and as

49:11

a date or is the worst of it

49:14

so I gotta fight for that must have

49:16

to fight for my daughter she like on

49:18

his business environments I live in a fight

49:20

and fight you everything I have so every

49:22

time he started coming out mean i like

49:24

okay my turn to go back you sell

49:26

yards in i felt gate and i like

49:28

island civil doctor's office the. Next day or looked

49:31

in and i saw the boxes allium where they are

49:33

announcement. Has is what I mean

49:35

my says I seen everything a Sunday I use in

49:37

court to testify against him. Alert! His

49:39

diet alerted seen yet took ten

49:41

years. Yet senior to get

49:43

there. Are dozens of He

49:46

has a plan the whole time to

49:48

expose this and to show the truth

49:50

like and so my hardest to show

49:52

got heart that this is not him

49:54

this is non dawn. At all.

49:57

Yeah. And you guys did not have to pay

49:59

bill gothard any. Are you there to

50:01

salvage a clear here yet he peeled

50:03

aside for times we are higher in

50:05

a play a lawyer but yeah Middleton

50:07

budget the supreme. Court of Justice in Washington

50:10

D C with the next level enough when he

50:12

dropped it and decide if you so. He

50:14

fought out for a long time a

50:16

hill. Yeah. I went

50:19

wild with a link to our podcast of

50:21

the list says well suppose with Emily Andalus

50:23

as you can hear their stories aren't assists

50:25

So today you're divorced. His

50:27

hands, your razor, your your child

50:30

by yourself and you. You are

50:32

finding this new gods that you

50:34

always knew. But. You could

50:36

never quite understand and things that you knew

50:39

your heart didn't measure up with what was

50:41

being taught to you and. Now.

50:43

The found this freedom and you're involved

50:45

with this organization that helps others and

50:48

I want to give our listeners and

50:50

insight. Into. Some of the

50:52

commonalities of the stories that you hear

50:54

you because you're involved and called to

50:56

peace and so he talked to to

50:58

abuse victims all the time and so

51:00

many of them come in and they're

51:02

confused like you were. they were like

51:04

I didn't realize this is abuse I

51:06

was taught I was a supposed to

51:08

submit as the can you tell us

51:10

how the teachings that are so common

51:12

in search. Are really

51:15

really cheap women tracks. Say

51:18

wallet is basically isolates all easy

51:20

bird thought to look within ourselves.

51:23

And to never question anybody else and he

51:25

never really think like and so much were

51:27

taught to is that see really afraid of

51:29

separation and are not divorced and how and

51:31

telling people that they need to get out

51:34

there were so afraid of that this is

51:36

it as such a bad thing or that

51:38

is gonna destroy our family that we won't

51:40

even considered I read he I I think

51:42

a lot of that happens and sewer very

51:44

afraid we select We have to stick with

51:46

this. We have to endure it and I

51:48

feel like a lot of people when they

51:51

do finally reach out for help or told

51:53

didn't. I want to do like like

51:55

have more sex, play more too fast,

51:57

try to be tender, have better meal.

52:00

I'm no. I think it's important to

52:02

understand that abuses about how are in

52:04

control and it's about one person maintaining

52:06

power and control every the other and

52:08

your executions shift all the time. So

52:10

one day it may be you need

52:12

to have dinner ready at six o'clock

52:14

and in in or the author upset

52:16

the next day and may I'm from

52:18

him really five thirty and I didn't

52:21

want this side and they're upset here

52:23

and to with always shifting and you're

52:25

always trying to achieve this since of

52:27

approval by then but it's really never

52:29

enough and. It's never really have been in

52:31

and because it's a dentist's about power and

52:33

control and breaking you down isn't making you

52:35

think if you could try to a little

52:38

bit harder. He. Would be better. Everything is

52:40

always your fault of you wanting to under seem

52:42

of users as they never take responsibility. And

52:44

accountability. Abuser stop me cry

52:46

in a me say they're gonna change

52:48

but it ever really take accountability for

52:50

their sense. To. Be ever really

52:53

repent. And. Began a change

52:55

path. Know. They don't. They

52:57

just find new ways to manipulate and new

52:59

ways to control and so that's where my

53:01

called the these we do offer advocates were

53:04

is free. It's hard rule sit down with

53:06

you an insight and help you understand the

53:08

most. My tonsils are just computers. They're very

53:10

confused about the relationship and don't have words

53:13

to say. They feel like the gone crazy

53:15

the philip nobody would believe them the seal

53:17

off kilter. They feel like if he keeps

53:19

the another day that if I die that's

53:21

very common and they're just say I keep

53:24

had this pain anymore. Please help me understand.

53:26

Just so confused. And usually they

53:28

live in fear their partner as the most

53:30

common thing to look for his. They're afraid

53:32

of their partner, the freighted, disappointing and afraid

53:35

of not being homeless, silent what will happen,

53:37

afraid of not having this done right or

53:39

same the some wrong or not leaving him

53:41

in this way it's a constant need to

53:44

please and a constant fear of not freezing

53:46

I'm So then we helped them walk to

53:48

the process of understanding do you say or

53:50

do you go and what does that look

53:53

like as you keep just really. You

53:55

can we? What? Do you really

53:57

have to do that? Very strategically?

54:00

And hill what you're doing when you

54:02

get a safe he has it's he

54:04

has appeared record in officer things we

54:06

just I help them practice three that's

54:08

by Alex yeah ladders teachings as they

54:10

just it makes them feel very confused.

54:12

Album sound like I'm responsible for me

54:14

as if my husband's last responsible for

54:17

to meet sexual needs. So therefore when

54:19

I'm not meeting a sexual needs is

54:21

okay for him to get angry because

54:23

this is a normal Christian man. Like

54:26

know that's not. At my Dad's

54:28

hurts it's like I've heard all and submission.

54:30

if you're a complimentary and or he felt

54:32

series with should never be used no matter

54:35

what your beliefs are. it is never ever

54:37

yielded as a weapon to control. view. It

54:39

does not mean somebody have the final say

54:41

and everything about your life when it comes

54:43

to abuse. They don't get to control your

54:46

finances in order control in isolate you if

54:48

you can't go to the gym or you

54:50

can't go see a friend or you can't

54:52

go out to dinner or do something with

54:55

your friends like I don't know what. Like

54:57

kind of an isolation. I think it's not

54:59

about controlling. everything about the kids are making

55:02

you feel like a bad here It that's

55:04

not that's not it authentic christianity there because

55:06

they are going to use your children of

55:08

palm so used as weapons to control you

55:10

usually and abuse of marriage and your me

55:12

to feel like usually you're the bad parents

55:14

or their very out it's a it's a

55:16

stream between the two I guess either that's

55:18

not. Submission. It's not about power

55:21

in control non. Person One person does

55:23

not have all the power to tell you

55:25

what to do and every area of your

55:28

life.is taking your god given autonomy from used

55:30

to be able to follow the holy spirit

55:32

been able to be led by him. Say

55:35

a strict that from you

55:37

and that's not okay. That's

55:39

not the not, make us happy and don't

55:41

up the pieces heart and heap semi teams

55:43

with and like in churches would come to

55:46

believe that and that women are just sex

55:48

objects and that's not true and a hundred

55:50

will ever have you ever see the marriage

55:52

were just have more. Sex actually works. No.

55:55

Actually, an abuser like user, he's

55:58

will have been to me. Even

56:00

if it seemed like a. Feeling

56:03

a bottomless pits with an abuse or

56:05

it rude and settlements and so everything

56:07

is about control. And maybe we. Have

56:09

you had to for the morning here? Scalia

56:12

them. Do it Now The night To And

56:14

I know women. They were having sex with

56:16

men three times a day and still being

56:18

viewed. Actually, statistics say if you're having sex

56:20

daily mail daily, you are more likely than

56:23

the views of marriage. Yeah, we found that

56:25

to that that in general, the more often

56:27

yes sex, the happier your marriages until it

56:29

becomes like daily are almost daily. and then

56:31

there's a huge drop off because people are

56:34

having sex daily. There's something else going on

56:36

that's not normal scorpions and are all in

56:38

general. Yeah, yeah. So the left a

56:40

comment on my Facebook page about a friend

56:42

of theirs and this friends hundred forty years

56:45

he knows the sooner has been seats mars

56:47

classes at their shirts and one day she

56:49

was with her friend and they were driving

56:51

the friend's husband's car just a short distance

56:53

to go meet them but the buses. she

56:55

was in her husband's car and it was

56:58

raining and and snows the back window was

57:00

open and so she told her friend he's

57:02

a close the back window and the friend

57:04

last and said oh no no I know

57:06

enough not to ever touch anything of of

57:08

peters or whatever. His name was. Well.

57:11

As he didn't close the window because and

57:13

she was laughing like this was normal like

57:15

human ear. Like you know enough, never ever

57:17

to touch anything of your husband's. Yes,

57:21

And it's like in in Mice and In this

57:23

woman was saying. You. Know I was trying

57:25

to explain to my friend that that isn't normal.

57:28

Messages. Had. She couldn't even

57:30

understand what I was saying. She's a spot. Know this.

57:32

This is the way. It. Is. It's.

57:35

Their. Normal until they the into question it.

57:37

We. Have to look. Inside a say. In

57:40

this manner or not, I think it's really

57:42

important for school. Are here and center stand

57:44

and this is not making lethal guilty or

57:46

bad. By Twitter and he grow

57:49

up in the safe environment where there's these

57:51

president. Are. More likely to in the

57:53

baby's relationships. Are we can With users

57:55

themselves and so many we think we're

57:57

saving our children. By staying together

57:59

I am not advocating of your peace will

58:01

get source. Please don't hear me saying that.

58:04

By staying together. It's better for

58:06

their children and. It's better for them to

58:08

stay together into watch their diet. Abuse

58:11

their mother tear her down. A friend of

58:13

and you know Rippers threads make her feel

58:15

like a terrible individual is I'm as allies

58:17

as a mother as better for the tutoring

58:20

than going through a divorce. And it's sad

58:22

because a lot of money. Work with

58:24

sign. It's absolutely. In.

58:27

A suit and more likely are going to

58:29

identify with abuser because who don't identify with

58:31

the person with the most power and then

58:34

begin abusing the mothers themselves as they become

58:36

teenagers that is more likely to common pattern

58:38

or a have nothing to do with them

58:40

later in life and again you are Christianity

58:43

because when you live in a home. For.

58:45

Suit or smart as is my thing is

58:47

so important for pastors. Understand this because if

58:50

you don't get it and you don't began

58:52

advocating for ruining your church. Is it a

58:54

generational cycle? Children. Who grow up

58:56

exhales with domestic abuse and your dad sit front

58:58

row in the church every Sunday as all involved

59:00

and they watched their dad abuse their mother behind.

59:02

Closed Doors. You. Understood or I'll gone.

59:05

Mother up. Now. They're don't want nothing

59:07

to do with that. Never. Know nothing

59:09

to do a church because they're gonna

59:12

think that God is an abusive person.

59:15

And so we don't stand up for this and sources. I

59:17

have three. Sons are so afraid it

59:19

will come out the woodwork or they're

59:21

going to destroy marriages or whatever. Know

59:23

we hold. Abusers

59:26

as oppressors Accountable.

59:28

We. Are stopping the generation cycle

59:31

of abuse? We. Are

59:33

saving Families. By

59:35

saving, choose him. From being

59:37

a side that is abusive is

59:39

really important to now she'll and

59:41

that is not best to stay

59:43

in a relationship is abusive army

59:46

don't fit marriage counseling it around

59:48

and are not see don't get

59:50

or something when you need it

59:52

because Mears Toppling is wonderful if

59:54

you're in a non abusive marriage

59:56

by here seeking marriage counseling in

59:58

an abusive marriage. Helping

1:00:01

obe you to be used as a weapon

1:00:03

against you. You. Have to tell

1:00:05

all your fault. A cause loss. Marriage

1:00:07

counselors are not aware domestic violence are not

1:00:09

trained in that they're not compute. Looking for

1:00:11

the pattern of towering control over looking for

1:00:13

fear and relationship is my cello. her fault.

1:00:16

Minutes to be like, know you try this.

1:00:18

New to this and then he's controlling everything

1:00:20

you're saying when you go to marriage counseling

1:00:22

and you can't say these things and now

1:00:24

it's. I. Am most people thought to

1:00:26

gets a lot worse either. It use

1:00:28

any sick national playing and so that's

1:00:30

where we We do work really heavily

1:00:32

resources and even from work heavily will

1:00:34

tell slurs and offer training to be

1:00:36

able to understand the dynamics of abuse

1:00:38

because once you see it. You. Can

1:00:41

see it as so important for

1:00:43

Mr. Years and people hovers like

1:00:45

counselors. To be aware but we

1:00:47

are the most part of are not and

1:00:50

ago or city try to should you that

1:00:52

the best thing to do the best chance

1:00:54

to say that is to separate entity get

1:00:56

a hold him accountable for the way he's

1:00:58

treating his life. That. Human.

1:01:01

So lord where can people find called Peace

1:01:03

Even got a call to be.org you could

1:01:05

have been advocate there are you can reach

1:01:07

out to us on our Facebook page or

1:01:09

you can go to envelop called the Peace.words

1:01:11

and contact us and we are happy to

1:01:13

talk with any woman that think they might

1:01:15

be an abuse and hobby. Lively is it's

1:01:17

and years problem ready As you said awesome

1:01:19

and I will put those links as well

1:01:21

as the linked to the power and control

1:01:23

we'll the line with talking about to that's

1:01:25

very interesting and a very eye opening so

1:01:27

thank you so much for sharing your story.

1:01:29

I'm so glad that. You're free now and the

1:01:31

are thriving in that you're able to help others

1:01:34

with the help that you receive to. I think

1:01:36

that's beautiful. Oh thank you. I'm

1:01:38

grateful for you and your bucks. They

1:01:40

were so killing of saying the first

1:01:42

time I read your errors. But the

1:01:45

great Sex rescue I like literally started

1:01:47

crying because I mean single men single

1:01:49

for seventy six years. But I felt

1:01:51

so much relief. To. Hear that

1:01:54

like God's word state this was

1:01:56

not have a brought seeming to

1:01:58

my heart to know the. Never

1:02:00

got start to endure sexual abuse, a marriage and

1:02:02

so I'm really grateful for it out because dogs

1:02:04

to set us free and I'm grateful for your

1:02:06

heart's in setting others three and seeking. To

1:02:09

share his to for the other people on

1:02:11

and to thank you the man Thank you

1:02:13

so much I appreciate you being here yes

1:02:15

thank you I'm so glad to learn to

1:02:17

come and share her story with as it

1:02:20

is heartbreaking what she went through but it's

1:02:22

also so he linked to see how well

1:02:24

is doing now and how when you have

1:02:26

a real encounter with the god who sees

1:02:28

use who cares about youth who doesn't see

1:02:30

you as the peninsula him for jokes how

1:02:33

such. Wonderful! Healing can happen and

1:02:35

so think you Lauren for joining us

1:02:37

again! All the pieces in the podcast

1:02:39

notes and I also wanted to Another

1:02:41

shout outs for our sponsor, The Kingdom's

1:02:43

Girls Bible. It honestly is so amazing!

1:02:45

I just love how it covers all

1:02:47

the different stories of the women in

1:02:49

the Bible. Some we might not even

1:02:51

know, like the midwives that Exodus thought

1:02:54

there. some. My. Favorite characters. You

1:02:56

know, it's about time that we paid attention

1:02:58

to the Women in Scripture and realize that

1:03:00

Sisters Jesus doesn't consider women a joke that

1:03:02

included them. It's great to see a bible

1:03:04

that does that too, and this it makes

1:03:06

it a wonderful gift for your daughter's to

1:03:09

know that they are important to know that

1:03:11

they are included in the blessings so that

1:03:13

may be in the future. They won't end

1:03:15

up getting swindled by a pastor who doesn't

1:03:17

respect them, but also they won't end up

1:03:19

in an abusive marriage because don't know that

1:03:21

they have value and that Jesus cares to

1:03:24

check out the An Ivy Kingdom Girls Bibles.

1:03:26

And doing this again next week On says

1:03:28

their marriage podcasts and we celebrate one year

1:03:30

of our book. Caesar's Better. It turns a

1:03:33

year next week and we've got some Something's

1:03:35

coming soon. See them! Or by.