0:00

On

0:00

this week's episode of Basic, a

0:02

bonus episode in which we talk about the

0:04

state of cable television. Happy

0:06

holidays welcome to Basic, the official pod Cassidy

0:09

unofficial history of cable television. I'm Doug

0:11

Herzog, a former TV executive. And I'm

0:13

Jen Cheney, TV critic at Vulture in New York

0:15

Magazine. We hope everyone's having a

0:17

great holiday season. We've just finished

0:20

our season as in season 2, and

0:22

we'll be back on January eleventh with brand

0:24

new episodes. Now if you've listened

0:26

to this podcast at all, we hope you have. You know,

0:28

it's all about cable television. A platform

0:30

that at the end of twenty twenty two

0:33

seems to be in deep decline, Jen. Yeah.

0:35

So today we thought we'd spend a little time talking about

0:37

the state of cable TV as we enter into

0:40

a New Year. Now we're recording

0:42

this podcast in early December and what's

0:44

hitting our Twitter feeds over the last couple days

0:46

is massive layoffs and a

0:49

CEO leading at AMC network, you know,

0:51

the which was the home of admin and walking

0:53

dead, which just finished its run, some

0:55

layoffs coming at CNN. And

0:57

it's it's and and also reports of,

0:59

you know, cable penetration dipping

1:01

to around fifty percent of the

1:03

country, you know, versus almost

1:06

a hundred percent where it used to be back in the the

1:09

Yeah. I mean, this is at

1:11

least in my recent memory, I can't think

1:13

of a more kind of tumultuous year

1:15

for the medium in terms of the shakeups that you're

1:17

talking about. Not just

1:19

in cable, but going into

1:21

streaming as well, it just feels like everybody

1:23

is really scrambling

1:25

to figure out what to do. And what

1:27

what makes sense going forward in terms of a strategy

1:30

for releasing new shows. Yeah, we've

1:32

seen Bob Iger come back to a

1:34

fumbling Disney Corporation,

1:36

which is yet to really figure out how

1:39

to hit this on the head long term. But

1:41

it's really ironic, actually, you know, streaming,

1:43

which is part of the reason I think

1:45

cables and decline, certainly one of biggest

1:47

reasons cables and decline is struggling itself

1:50

here at the end of twenty twenty two. Yeah,

1:52

that's absolutely true. And I believe

1:54

it was somewhat at AMC when they announced that they

1:56

were going to be laying off twenty percent of the workforce.

1:58

That attributed at least

2:01

some of that to cord cutting and the fact

2:03

that streaming hasn't been able

2:05

to counterbalance the Klein

2:07

and and cable TV subscriptions that you were just

2:09

talking about. So it just feels like, where

2:12

do we go from here? And the answer is I have no

2:14

clue, and I don't know if anybody else does either.

2:16

Yeah. I I wish I did. I I certainly don't.

2:18

It's probably one of the reasons I'm sitting home

2:20

in my closet. But, you know, AMC is

2:23

AMC is an example. You know,

2:25

it's a standalone network. Right? It's not part

2:27

of AAA bigger suite

2:29

of networks like, say, you know, the

2:32

Viacom Group or or Discovery. AMC

2:34

owns IFC. There's there's like a broader --

2:36

That's true. -- AMC Family, but it's

2:38

not like a But they're small. Right. They're they're

2:41

they're small. And then, you know, when

2:43

you're done watching mad men or

2:46

walking dead or breaking bad, which are

2:48

some of the best shows ever on basic cable

2:50

television and some of the most influential

2:53

and and and really

2:55

some of the biggest. But when you strip that all

2:57

away, you know, what's really there? And

3:00

you know, what can people

3:02

expect to pay for if they're going

3:04

to one day pay for AMC? Sort

3:06

of in a la carte world. Mhmm. Yeah.

3:08

I mean, because AMC has AMC Plus,

3:11

and the AMC shows

3:13

all wind up there, but they also have their

3:15

own original programming, and I know

3:17

they've been trying to get people to subscribe. I don't

3:19

know what does subscriber numbers

3:21

are for that off the top of my head. But

3:25

I think that's a huge challenge is, you

3:27

know, feel like we've talked about this before, but

3:29

there was a time when everybody would pay for like

3:31

a basic cable package. And they would go, I wish I

3:33

could do this a la carte and pick the channels that I want.

3:35

And now everything is so a la carte

3:38

that you're paying for, like, fifteen streaming

3:40

platforms and cable and and

3:42

NFL Sunday or whatever you get

3:44

and it's overwhelming. It is is

3:46

overwhelming. And it's hard to figure out where

3:48

to find even certain shows. And

3:51

all the all the biggest companies, you know,

3:53

even a midsized company like AMC, but you know

3:56

Paramount or Discovery, you know,

3:58

Warner, or Disney, whoever it

4:00

is, they have been continually

4:03

sort of cutting back on what they put

4:05

on their basic cable networks versus,

4:08

you know, what they're sort of stuffing

4:10

into their streaming platforms.

4:13

And so we're at this weird

4:16

place I think where, you know, basic cable

4:18

is is is losing subscribers and

4:20

and losing programming. Everything

4:22

seems to be going to the streamers, but like

4:24

as I said, they don't seem to have figured it

4:26

out yet. Yeah. I mean, FX,

4:28

which is a has always been a really great

4:31

network for original programming, they

4:34

have have also started putting things direct to

4:36

Hulu, something they've been doing for a while, and they

4:38

were branding it as FX on Hulu.

4:40

But then that brand went away. So

4:42

it's even when I'm writing about these shows,

4:44

2 don't even know what to call them. I'm like, this

4:46

is on Hulu, but it's not a Hulu show. It's typically

4:48

an FX show, but it's not FX on Hulu because we don't

4:50

call it that anymore. And I'm just like, I don't know what to

4:52

say. It's really confusing. It

4:55

is very confusing. Or

4:57

maybe it's less confusing for people outside

4:59

of the industry because they just turn on Hulu and

5:01

they see reservation dogs and they

5:03

just start watching it and they don't really care

5:05

where it is. You know, I I ran

5:07

into John Landgraf, who was

5:09

the chairman of the FX networks and one

5:11

of the great TV programmers of

5:13

of my generation for sure or any or any generation.

5:16

I ran into him yesterday and

5:18

first thing that came to mind because I just had happened to be watching

5:20

it as I said, oh, hey, I've been watching chip and dales.

5:22

I'm really enjoying it on Hulu. And he said, oh,

5:24

that's not ours. Right.

5:27

That's the Hulu one. That's a Hulu show.

5:29

It's not an FX show. I just automatically assume

5:31

somehow if it was a drama, and it was on

5:33

Hulu who's coming from FX, but it's not. He said,

5:35

no. I've got the other thing, the Jesse Eisenberg

5:37

thing, the name of which escapes me. Fleishman

5:39

is in trouble, which is terrific. Yeah. That's an FX

5:42

show. Yeah. Which is also terrific. Kind

5:44

of a sort of a Woody Allen series

5:46

to me, but -- Yeah. -- you dare.

5:48

Kathy is gonna have if she hears you

5:50

comparing her to Woody Allen, oh my god.

5:53

So so but

5:55

anyway, just again, you know, a a indication

5:58

of how jumbled and confusing

6:00

it is all out there. And, you know, as

6:02

somebody who made his living sort

6:05

of developing

6:07

and programming cable brands. It's

6:10

a little sad for me to see these all these

6:12

brands, whether it's AMC or FX

6:14

or Comedy Central or MTV, whatever

6:16

it is, to sort of see them

6:18

diminished over time.

6:20

And I I know

6:22

I'll miss him as a viewer. I mean, I think there was something

6:24

to be said for the kind of

6:26

curation they provided. Those

6:29

of us trying to figure out what to watch and where

6:31

to go. Howard Bauchner: Yeah, I mean, we've talked about

6:33

that before, but I do think that's part of the

6:35

reason maybe why cable also

6:37

doesn't have the same pull anymore

6:39

because people don't have those brand

6:41

associations. And I

6:43

think, you know, FX

6:45

should be, like, the a24 of

6:47

TV. Right. Everybody knows what

6:49

a24 is, and they and it's, like, meets

6:51

something. I know if I see an a twenty four movie, it means

6:53

something. Yeah. And FX absolutely

6:56

has established itself over the years in the same way,

6:58

but now I just think people don't people don't

7:00

know where they're TV shows are

7:03

coming from. I mean, I constantly hear people call things

7:05

Netflix shows when they were first on

7:07

AMC or NBC or something else.

7:09

But As we're talking about the

7:11

demise of cable, at the same time,

7:13

the most successful show on television

7:16

at the moment is a basic cable show. That's

7:18

right. And that's Yellowstone. Which

7:20

has spawned an entire universe because

7:23

I guess Taylor Sheridan who created just doesn't

7:26

sleep and just keeps writing TV shows

7:28

until he passes out. I'm not sure,

7:31

but he's got a lot going on. Howard Bauchner:

7:33

Yeah, no, it's an amazing run for

7:36

Paramount Taylor

7:38

and the whole sort of Yellowstone universe.

7:41

I guess my question about Yellowstone is,

7:44

is it one of these shows that was

7:47

really bolstered by the fact that it was on a

7:49

streamer and got

7:51

sort of wider distribution

7:54

in that regard. Or do you

7:56

feel like it's a legit cable hit?

7:59

I feel like it's a legit cable hit. And in

8:01

fact, the streaming around it is so confusing

8:03

because you would think that to

8:05

watch Yellowstone, you would go to Paramount plus

8:07

since the show airs on the Paramount Network.

8:09

However, that's not how it works.

8:12

Yellowstone is on peacock because

8:14

Paramount sold Yellowstone to peacock.

8:17

I think without thinking it through clearly enough

8:19

to realize that it should be on Paramount plus. And

8:21

so so and I don't think peacock

8:23

has huge household

8:25

penetration at this point. I feel like a

8:27

lot they've had some great shows that just haven't really

8:29

hit. Because don't know how many people

8:32

are fully aware of all their original

8:34

programming. So I feel like that

8:36

audience for Yellowstone really started

8:38

in cable and and has has

8:40

stayed there. I mean, they get, you

8:42

know, sixteen million viewers or something on Big

8:45

numbers. Real numbers. Yeah. Real, like, legitimate

8:47

numbers. That you don't see anymore. Yeah.

8:49

It's incredible. I mean, we've talked on the show

8:51

about maybe the Walking Dead having been

8:53

the last of the great big cable hits,

8:55

but clearly there's one more. Yeah.

8:57

Yeah. So so we will not bury

8:59

basic cable yet because there's

9:02

we'll always be surprised. Something something

9:04

could change these little hits come

9:06

along and and Are you saying the

9:08

rumors of basic cables demise have been greatly

9:10

exaggerated? I would not say greatly

9:12

exaggerated. I would say slightly

9:14

exaggerated or maybe just like,

9:16

I just hope they're not as bad as they

9:18

sound. Another show that broke

9:20

through on basic cable and

9:22

also through a streamer as well in this

9:24

new sort of hybrid world, not not quite the level

9:26

of yellowstone, but a lot of critical acclaim was

9:28

the Bear. Yeah. A

9:30

great great show is on

9:32

my list of the top ten TV

9:34

shows of the year. I've never worked

9:36

in a kitchen, but I feel like I have

9:38

because I watched that show, because it just really

9:40

recreated the tension and the

9:42

stress involved

9:44

in having to fulfill

9:46

orders and and deal with

9:48

coworkers and all that kind of stuff.

9:50

Yes, Jeff. Yes, Jeff.

9:52

That's right. Great. Okay.

9:56

So now that you mentioned your list Jen,

9:59

what else is on Jen's top ten list of

10:01

the year? Do you wanna know

10:03

everything or just the basic cable ones?

10:05

Let's run them down. I think our audience would

10:07

would love to hear what you're watching. Sure.

10:09

And and always, you can read more about

10:11

this on Vulture. All of my

10:13

list and my colleague's list,

10:16

Roxanna Haddady and Katherine Veneren

10:18

Donk, they're represented there as well. But

10:21

going from ten to one, ten

10:24

was Abbott Elementary for me.

10:26

Mhmm. Network TV

10:28

Proving that the network sitcom is also not dead.

10:30

It's not thriving, but

10:32

there's still some life in it. Not dead yet.

10:35

Yep. Number nine was a

10:37

show called this is going to hurt

10:39

that is a British show

10:41

and was picked up on AMC

10:43

Plus, which we referenced earlier.

10:45

And it's just a great, great medical

10:47

series with Ben Wishaw in the

10:49

lead. Just showing

10:52

the healthcare system in the

10:54

UK and how broken it is and

10:56

the strain it puts on on the

10:59

doctors and nurses who work in that

11:01

environment. It's just incredibly

11:03

incredibly well done. My number

11:05

eight is the last movie

11:07

stars. This is the documentary

11:09

that Ethan Hawk made about Paul Newman and

11:11

Joanne Woodward. yeah. It's on

11:13

HBO Max. And at first, I was

11:15

like, he made this in lockdown

11:17

and it's gonna be a lot of talking heads.

11:20

Maybe overdeifying Paul Newman and

11:22

Joanne ordered, and it was not that at all.

11:24

He did a really beautiful job

11:26

of bringing in voices

11:28

to actually read the words

11:30

that Paul Newman had written or things

11:32

that Joanne Woodward had said -- Right. --

11:34

and really showing them as full

11:37

flawed yet still very admirable human

11:39

beings. So that's a great one. And there's

11:41

a bio on the market now 2. Right? But There

11:43

is. Yep. Yeah. Hey,

11:46

I got a basic cable one, better things

11:49

on FX. That

11:51

show came to an end. This was Pamela

11:53

Adlon series about a

11:55

single working mom that is

11:58

just so delightful, and I I really hope more

12:00

people discover it. Yeah. Cool show. Even

12:02

though it's over, it's all streaming, of course, like

12:04

everything. Yep. Number six on my list

12:06

is the bear, which we've talked about.

12:08

And actually, we

12:10

were wrong. This is an FX show, but it did not

12:12

air on FX. It was actually strictly

12:14

streaming on Hulu to underline the point

12:16

again of how confusing it is to remember

12:19

exactly where you watch things and where

12:21

they come from. And in

12:23

fact, I'm just pulling up my press

12:25

release that I got when it came out

12:27

or actually when the trailer launched earlier this

12:29

year and the the subject line says

12:31

FX is the bear. And then you get into

12:33

the email, and it says all episodes

12:35

streaming exclusively on Hulu. Yeah.

12:37

It's like -- Super super confusing.

12:39

-- it is really confusing. And

12:41

then number five is

12:44

another example, reservation dogs,

12:46

which is an FX show that I

12:48

believe was only on Hulu, if I'm not

12:50

mistaken, Correct me if I'm wrong

12:52

anyone who wants to can can yell at me on Twitter?

12:54

You you you keep going. I'm gonna wicki it while

12:56

you're going. Okay. That show was in

12:58

its second season this and if you've never seen it, it's a

13:00

really refreshing, smart,

13:03

insightful portrait of young

13:05

adults living on a Native

13:07

American reservation in Oklahoma. It's

13:09

really, really great. Number four on my

13:11

list is, I'm sorry, we're gonna have to go

13:13

premium cable. With Berry,

13:15

I thought the third season of Berry was

13:17

just outstanding on

13:19

every conceivable level. Number

13:22

three, another premium cable,

13:25

somebody somewhere. This

13:27

is another show that launched

13:29

this year, it stars Bridget Everett as a

13:31

woman who moves back to her

13:33

small Kansas town after her sister

13:35

passes away. And it's just

13:37

one of the shows every episode you laugh and

13:39

cry, sometimes at the same time.

13:41

It's just really terrific. No.

13:44

Number two, Basic cable

13:46

guys, Better Call Saul.

13:48

Final season. Just

13:51

one of the best shows I think

13:53

ever and maybe I

13:55

think the best spin off that's ever been

13:57

made because it sounded like it would be such

13:59

a bad idea and it

14:02

complements breaking bad, but it stands alone

14:04

perfectly on its own as a as a really brilliant.

14:06

And I would say, controversial

14:08

opinion better show than breaking bad. Oh,

14:10

whoa, hot take. Yep.

14:12

I mean, breaking bad is terrific, but

14:14

I That show didn't make me feel

14:17

as many things as better call

14:19

saw. I'm gonna have to go I've never watched Better

14:21

Call Saul. I'm gonna have to go back and maybe start

14:23

from the beginning and -- Yeah. Absolutely. -- and digging.

14:25

Yeah. And you can do that. I think

14:27

on Netflix, just to make things really confusing.

14:30

And then I'm

14:32

sorry to say for the sake of this podcast,

14:35

The number one show on

14:37

my list is severance, which

14:39

is Apple TV. You may

14:41

have noticed or maybe you didn't III

14:43

went out of my way not to do any shows

14:45

on this list that are based on existing IP

14:48

or true stories

14:50

that we already know. Even though there were some very good

14:52

shows in that, under that umbrella, like and

14:54

or the dropout was

14:56

great. But I really people have

14:58

become so adverse to original programming that I

15:00

made at a goal. I'm like, I'm only

15:02

putting original things on here. So That's great.

15:04

That's a great list. And severance was a great

15:06

show. Of course, we had been still around

15:08

earlier this year. You

15:10

can check that out in our in our

15:12

catalog. And just doubling back reservation

15:14

dogs was was FX on

15:16

Hulu. I thought so. Yeah. So like the

15:18

bear, not So not an FX show.

15:20

And there's a couple two two shows on the an FX

15:22

show in a sense. By right. In a sense. Right?

15:24

Not at right. And then two two

15:26

shows on there. I I don't think I've maybe

15:28

I've heard you talk about, but I've certainly never

15:30

seen that I gotta go do a research

15:32

on. But that's a that's a that's a that's a that's

15:34

a great list. A lot of great TV up there. Those are

15:36

hard things to do these days. Put it into

15:38

top tens. Yeah. You're telling

15:40

me.

15:48

You know, Jen, one of the things that

15:51

streaming has sort of

15:53

ushered in is this era of

15:55

you can watch anything at any time, anywhere.

15:57

And so the idea and we've talked

15:59

about this before on on on the

16:01

podcast. You know, the idea of a a

16:03

daypart, like late night. Right? Like

16:05

staying up to eleven thirty to

16:07

get some comedians take on the day that

16:09

that seems like an antiquated notion in

16:11

in twenty twenty two. And and we're

16:13

starting to see ratings decline there and sort of

16:15

shows fall away. We saw two cable shows.

16:18

Impacted by that I think this

16:20

year. One is, Sanfisher went away

16:22

on TBS. And

16:25

of course, Trevor Noah is has

16:27

you know, he's leaving the Daily Show.

16:29

So III guess the Daily

16:31

Show will go on, but it brings up a

16:33

larger question is what is the fate of late night and

16:35

a particularly late night on on

16:37

cable, which was always like, you know, kind of the

16:39

b team compared to the networks. Mhmm.

16:42

Yeah. And and on the premium cable side,

16:44

we lost Daisy's Enduro as

16:46

well, and we had Kidmare on -- That's right. --

16:48

a podcast earlier. As well. That's

16:50

right. This is not just affecting basic

16:52

cable. It's the whole genre, a

16:54

genre with a title that doesn't mean anything anymore,

16:56

like you said, because late night is

16:59

describing the time you watch them, which no one does

17:01

late at night anymore. I

17:03

don't have the answer to where it's going. I just

17:06

think it's it's more and

17:08

more reliant on

17:10

the Internet than it is

17:12

on who's watching it on television because

17:14

that's where you get you

17:16

know, that's where people are seeing it. They're seeing clips.

17:18

They're seeing, you know, Jimmy Fallon playing

17:20

some silly game with whoever his

17:22

guest is. And trying

17:25

to make that kind of go viral, but nobody's I

17:27

shouldn't say nobody. And you're getting your

17:29

jokes all day from a from a

17:31

number from dozens, if not hundreds

17:33

of sources. time you get to late

17:35

night, which is where we would stay up to hear, you

17:37

know, Johnny or John

17:39

Stewart, you know, give his thoughts on

17:41

the day, and his jokes on the day,

17:43

like, you've kinda heard them all if you're, you know,

17:45

if you're on social media. Yeah. I

17:47

mean, back in the day, I would just I would turn

17:49

on letterman, and I would just watch all

17:51

of letterman. Because that's what you did.

17:53

That's what you did. The only late night

17:55

show lately that I that I ever turn on

17:57

and watch in full is is John

17:59

Oliver showing HBO and

18:01

I don't even always do that. I mean, it's just it doesn't

18:03

feel like appointment television so

18:05

much as if something's

18:08

buzzing around something to happen on one of the shows. I'll take a

18:10

look at it, but that's kind of the extent.

18:16

As we come to the close of season two

18:18

2, and we've done over

18:21

thirty episodes of the show and with more

18:23

to 2, My question for you is,

18:25

what have we learned? Gosh,

18:27

I've learned so much, especially from you,

18:30

Doug. But I

18:32

don't know if this a thing I learned or just a thing

18:34

I now have an even deeper understanding of,

18:36

which is what a fucking circus it

18:38

was working in cable television.

18:40

In the early days and like It was.

18:43

How absolutely out of bounds, almost

18:45

everything would be if you if you

18:47

tried to do what you guys were doing back then

18:49

now, like, everything would be shut down

18:51

by HR. Like, none of these networks would have

18:53

ever existed. That's

18:55

there there's a lot of truth to that. And, you know,

18:57

we you know, unlike the broadcast network,

19:00

You know, weren't by the FCC.

19:02

And so, you know, ultimately, we

19:04

had to live with ourselves and

19:06

with what our advertisers

19:08

and, you know, cable operators would put up

19:11

with. And by the way, they're pretty

19:13

conservative, both conservative groups. And the

19:15

cable operators are very conservative groups.

19:17

So that was always where the the the

19:19

rubber meant the rubber. But, yeah,

19:21

those were, you know, crazy crazy fun

19:23

days. We've heard a lot of those stories. The thing

19:25

that I've learned and we've talked about here

19:27

is even people who spent their entire careers

19:30

in basic cable don't know what basic

19:32

cable is. I mean, almost

19:34

every show we have, we go to that last 2, we say,

19:36

what's your favorite basic cable show? And

19:38

somebody goes, and they

19:41

think we're anything that's like an HBO show, which would go, no. That's

19:43

premium cable. Or they or they mentioned

19:45

a broadcast show. We go No. That was

19:47

broadcast. I mean, even Allen Hunter,

19:49

who's coming up

19:51

in season three who literally spoke

19:54

pretty eloquently about his early days in,

19:56

quote, basic cable. When it

19:58

came time to answer that question, he had a

20:00

little trouble wrapping his head around

20:02

it. Yeah. I mean, I

20:04

understand it from younger people who as we've

20:06

talked about. They don't think in those terms anymore

20:08

at all. But I guess I

20:10

always thought people knew what basic cable was. Like, I just

20:12

thought it was a common term. And

20:14

yeah, that has been kind of illuminating.

20:18

Little depressing. Little depressing.

20:20

These these people still come on the podcast. But

20:22

but Jen. Jen, that's why we're here. We're going to

20:24

we are going to force the issue of basic cable down

20:26

the throats of American list. We're going to

20:28

make everyone understand this thing that won't exist

20:30

for much longer. That's the last thing

20:32

we do. If if it's and and and

20:34

it may be the last thing we do. But

20:37

the next, the last thing we do is gonna

20:39

have another special bonus

20:41

episode next week. So before we

20:43

do the last thing we ever do, we do

20:45

wanna remind you that we have a third season

20:47

coming up. It starts on January

20:49

eleventh, and we're gonna have brand new interviews with some

20:51

really, really great guests. John

20:53

Stewart, Trey Parker and Matt

20:55

Stone of South Park fame, Bravos

20:57

Andy Cohen, Trevor Noah, who he

20:59

also mentioned earlier. Weird

21:02

Alankovic, John Taylor from

21:04

Duran Duran which will

21:06

be the greatest day of my life,

21:08

and FX Chairman, John Landgraf, and

21:10

that's just a few of the names that you're

21:12

gonna hear from. So thanks for joining us

21:14

today. Come back next week for another bonus

21:16

episode where Jen and I ring in the New Year and

21:18

talk about our all time favorite

21:20

cable shows. We'll see

21:22

you then. Basic is

21:24

a Pantheon media production in partnership

21:26

with SiriusXM. Hosted by Jen

21:28

Cheney and Doug Herzog. Produced by

21:30

Christian Swain and Peter Ferrioli.

21:33

Lindley Ehrlich is our assistant producer.

21:35

Sound design and music by Jerry Daniels.

21:37

Mixed and mastered by Brian Slusher.

21:40

Recorded and edited by Zach

21:42

Schwissner. You can find basic on

21:44

Apple Podcasts, the SiriusXM

21:47

app, Pandora, Stitcher, or wherever you

21:49

like to listen.