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h per terms.

1:17

Today on Bravo's Andy

1:19

Cohen. I

1:21

was in charge of current programming,

1:24

so I was in charge of making the

1:26

shows that got greenlit. And it was a

1:28

VHS tape and it it was these women

1:30

in Orange County and their their boobs

1:32

were huge and their kids were really

1:34

hot and the way they communicated with

1:36

their kids was like all along, but

1:38

interesting, this woman was an

1:40

insurance agent and had

1:42

a grotto in her backyard. What is

1:45

this? At the time, Desperate Housewives

1:47

was the biggest show in

1:48

ABC. I have always been a

1:51

huge soap opera fan. So in my

1:53

mind, all these women knew each other,

1:55

so this could be like a soap

1:56

opera. was weird. The first season of the

1:58

Housewives of Orange County, it's like watching those

2:01

first Simpsons episodes from

2:03

the Tracy Altman show. It's like you

2:05

see the brilliance, but it's not all there

2:07

yet. Hey,

2:09

everyone. Welcome to Basic, the official podcast

2:11

of the unofficial history of cable television.

2:13

I'm Doug Herzog, a former TV

2:15

executive, and I'm ready to watch what happens

2:17

live. On our case, recorded.

2:19

And I'm Jen Cheney, a TV critic for Vulture

2:21

in New York Magazine, and I'm

2:24

secretly a real housewife of Potomac

2:26

Maryland.

2:27

Our guest today Bravo's Andy

2:29

Cohen, or is he's known to his social

2:31

media followers, Bravo

2:32

Andy. We'll talk about his evolution from

2:34

cable exec to Cable Star.

2:37

Andy Cohen has spearheaded a lot of what we consider

2:39

to be modern reality TV, specifically

2:41

in massive real housewives franchise.

2:44

He's also the host of watch what happens live,

2:46

the long running late night talk show in Bravo's. And

2:48

when he's not doing those things, he's busy writing books,

2:50

touring with his Pal Anderson Cooper, and

2:52

appearing on his own station radio Andy

2:55

right here on SiriusXM for our listeners who are

2:57

joining us on satellite

2:57

radio. And he's always entertaining to

3:00

talk to, so let's get right into it with Andy

3:02

Cohen. And stick around after to

3:04

hear Jen and I unpack the whole thing.

3:11

Andy Cohen, we are so excited to welcome

3:14

you to this episode of Basic and

3:17

we're gonna start off the way we always start

3:19

off with The same question

3:21

we ask of 1, which is can you remember

3:24

either when you first got cable television

3:26

or you first saw cable television?

3:28

Yes. I remember when

3:31

I got cable television, it

3:33

changed my life completely. I

3:36

was so excited and

3:38

I was mainly excited for

3:40

two things. MTV and seeing

3:44

guys asses on

3:46

Cinemax. So

3:49

You gotta pay gotta pay extra for that though, of course.

3:51

Yeah. My parents paid extra for that.

3:54

And, I mean, if I timed it

3:56

right, I could masturbate to Billy Joel's

3:58

Allentown video because they showed

4:01

assays in

4:02

that.

4:03

Did they? I don't remember that. Yeah. There

4:05

was a shower scene, and then I'm

4:07

still Dan and video, Elton John

4:09

-- Sure. -- there were guys in,

4:12

like, songs. Mhmm. So

4:14

I remember and then I remember, like,

4:17

yeah, there like, Lady Chatterly's lover

4:19

would be on Cinemax at, like, twelve

4:21

thirty in the morning. And so,

4:24

yes, it was kind

4:26

of MTV for music

4:28

and masturbatory

4:29

stuff, and then Cinemax for

4:32

the same. Andy Cohen

4:34

already delivering on the most colorful answer

4:36

to a question we've asked a hundred times.

4:39

There you go. So

4:42

once you got out in front of the TV and Lady

4:44

Chattles lover, you found yourself in Boston,

4:46

BU --

4:46

Mhmm. -- studying journalism. What was the

4:49

what was Andy Cohn's plan at that time? Do

4:51

you remember? Plan was

4:53

to be a local

4:55

reporter and anchor

4:57

and move around from market to

4:59

market as

5:02

one does in the local

5:04

news business, and I majored

5:06

in broadcast journalism at

5:07

BU. So then, you know, after that,

5:09

you started working at CBS News.

5:11

First, you were an intern, I believe, but then later,

5:13

you were, you know, producing, like, the

5:15

early show in CBS this morning.

5:18

Yeah. How did those roles prepare you

5:20

for what you do

5:20

now? Like, what things did you take from that?

5:23

Oh, wow. Working under a

5:25

deadline, making fast

5:28

to see I mean, I think working in

5:30

news is just it's

5:32

a great I mean, it used to be a

5:34

great place to

5:36

train for so many different

5:39

jobs in a weird way. I mean, just because

5:41

everything was you know,

5:43

very deadline oriented and

5:45

very you know, I had to write under deadline.

5:48

I had to edit pieces under

5:50

deadline. I had to make

5:52

snap decisions. Producing segments

5:54

for the morning show taught me about

5:57

TV time. I mean, I could if

5:59

they said, okay. You okay, you're

6:01

covering the Oscars and you have, you

6:03

know, three and a half minutes for a piece

6:05

in my mind. I knew exactly what I could fit

6:08

into that or doing a live interview,

6:10

producing a live interview. If they

6:12

said it's four and a half minutes or it's five

6:14

and a half minutes, I knew exactly what I

6:16

could fit. Into that amount of time.

6:18

And certainly now, I'm,

6:20

you know, it's III

6:22

have a live show and it's twenty two minutes

6:24

and we arguably fit more

6:26

into that twenty two minutes than

6:29

than most people do in a

6:31

half an hour. And I feel like, you

6:33

know, part of part of the reason is

6:35

because I have a bit of short

6:37

attention span, you know, I have a

6:39

short attention span, and I wanna deliver

6:41

for my viewers who might be bored at this

6:43

second that there's something else coming up in

6:45

another second. But also,

6:47

I just think that I, you know,

6:49

have from from nineteen

6:51

ninety one or nineteen

6:53

ninety. That's when I started paying attention

6:55

to, okay, how long is four minutes

6:57

in TV time and what can you really

6:59

do? And it's still on my

7:01

brain. I mean, the other thing journalism

7:03

does, you're working under that deadline pressure,

7:05

but also, ideally, you

7:07

don't screw

7:08

up. So you start holding yourself to a very, very

7:10

high standard or

7:11

True. But I screwed up all the

7:12

time. I screwed

7:15

up all the time. By the way, I do wanna

7:17

say, then when I was at forty eight hours,

7:19

I think, like, when I

7:21

saw what magicians the editors

7:23

at forty eight hours were, I

7:26

think that opened my

7:28

eyes to then when I was in

7:30

charge of programming at Trio and

7:32

then Bravo's, I think

7:34

it opened my mind up

7:36

in terms of all that could be done in

7:38

the edit as I was giving notes on

7:40

on shows. Alright.

7:42

Now before just the and we're gonna

7:44

jump into to triome bravo in a second. But

7:46

at CBS, you were not doing anything on air at that

7:48

point, though. Right? It was all behind the scenes? Correct.

7:51

I was basically,

7:53

I really wanted to be on the air. I wanted

7:55

to be on the air in a

7:57

way that I could be myself on the

7:59

air. And that's

8:01

stuff at CBS News. Right? And

8:04

well, it is. And also yeah.

8:06

I mean, my last internship was

8:08

at CBS News in New York. And once I

8:10

did that, I was, like, I'm not moving

8:12

to Iowa. Like, I'm

8:14

not I don't wanna do that.

8:16

I was like, I'm I

8:18

wanna go straight to the big time and I'll

8:20

just work behind the scenes. And there

8:22

were many I did

8:24

have a boss who is still

8:26

a producer at Sunday morning, Doug. You

8:28

probably know Jay Curtis. I know.

8:30

But Jay Jay was, like, your

8:32

eye you know, your you have a

8:34

really bad wandering eye. So I don't think

8:36

you're gonna work on camera. And I was, like,

8:39

what? I did. Do. And I called my mom. I

8:41

was like, are you aware that I have a

8:43

really bad 1 on it? She's like, that is

8:45

ridiculous. And of course,

8:47

the second I did wind up on air. I

8:49

heard from everyone about how cross eyed I

8:51

was. But so Jay

8:53

told me that, and then also I

8:55

really did just think I'm just gonna

8:57

move to New York. During the

8:59

time that I was

9:01

a producer at the morning

9:03

show, I would audition

9:05

to be a VJ every

9:07

so often. I would

9:09

still

9:10

try. I I tried like

9:14

little dribs and

9:16

drops here

9:16

and there. So be it in front of the camera, that

9:18

was a something you really wanted to

9:20

do. I still wanted to do it, but I was

9:22

having so much success behind the

9:24

camera. And by the way,

9:26

my version of having so

9:28

much success was just I

9:30

was a really active producer on

9:32

the morning show. I mean, I was, like, I was in

9:35

the title, I think, was my first

9:37

title as a I was a desk assistant.

9:39

Then I got promoted within a year or two

9:41

assistant producer. And I was

9:43

like twenty three, and I was an

9:45

assistant producer on the morning show, and they let

9:47

you do everything. I mean, I was

9:49

producing full segments. I

9:51

was flying all over the place. I

9:53

was booking guests. I was covering

9:55

all sorts of things. And I was like, Well,

9:58

this is major. Like,

10:00

I'm producing for

10:02

CBS News. It meant so

10:04

much to me, so I thought,

10:06

well, I'm a big success right

10:08

now. I just thought, you know, I'm a

10:10

big success. So, like, why am I

10:12

gonna go to some small town and

10:14

try to be on

10:14

camera, that scene. Right. But those those

10:17

jobs are great jobs that put you right at the

10:19

center of pop culture every day.

10:21

And and you can call anybody and say

10:23

I'm from CBS

10:23

News, and everybody's returning your call. Right? He's

10:26

screwed everybody. The show was a dud. It was

10:28

the number we don't forget. We were

10:30

up against Joan London and

10:32

Charlie Gibson and Katie

10:34

Currick and Brian -- No,

10:36

Brian. -- and then Katie and

10:38

Matt. And it was like, so we did not stand

10:40

a chance. So

10:42

any small victory that we

10:44

won was a huge

10:46

victory tree for us. I mean, we were

10:48

getting cream daily on in the

10:50

Booking Wars and all this stuff.

10:52

But it really it's great

10:54

opportunity. Exactly. It was

10:56

always everything was an opportunity.

10:58

When you're number three,

11:00

you you're still you're

11:02

gonna be number three, so you can

11:04

you know, you can try shit. Right? You can

11:07

try shit. Yeah. So anyway, it

11:09

was a very exciting time for me,

11:11

and I and I had given up

11:13

on it. But it does -- Take some

11:15

risk. -- real safe. Takes all those years

11:17

later when I wound up in front of the camera,

11:19

it really was such

11:21

a gift to me that I was

11:23

able to do that so many years later

11:25

and it was something that I thought had

11:27

absolutely the train had left the

11:29

station. So it's really I

11:32

consider still myself

11:34

so blessed. I mean, the other

11:36

night, by the way, I was where

11:38

I went to waverly in the other night with

11:40

my my college roommate and his

11:42

wife, and it was packed in there.

11:44

And they brought us right to the table. And I

11:46

was like, You know what? I

11:48

won't never forget this

11:50

because I spent twenty years in New York

11:52

City not being able to get a

11:53

table. So it's like that's something you have to

11:56

carry with you. You know what I mean? I'm curious.

11:58

Did you always feel, like, even when you were doing,

12:00

like, those Vijay auditions or whatever, did

12:02

you always feel comfortable on

12:03

camera? Or was that a No. I think I was

12:05

really bad. The tape exists

12:07

of me. There is some tape of me

12:09

that I shot. I would occasionally

12:12

have the cameraman, like, you

12:14

know, shoot do cut away because

12:16

I would be doing interviews with people

12:18

when when it was an E and G

12:20

shoot, when I was with a camera crew, but

12:22

I would be off camera. So but I would

12:24

sometimes shoot a stand up where I

12:26

was and then cut a piece

12:28

and keep myself asking the questions. And I was

12:30

just terrible. I mean, it's embarrassing. I

12:32

I need to post some these, but

12:34

there is so

12:34

bad. So you gave up a

12:37

promising career behind the scenes in

12:39

TV news to join a

12:41

little known teeny tiny cable

12:43

network from Canada. Right? Yes.

12:45

It's called Trio. Yes. So could you tell

12:47

us about the transition into Trio? Why

12:49

you decided to get into that side

12:50

business. And just also remind our viewers a little bit

12:53

like what Trio was. Well, I'll

12:55

tell you what Trio was. And the the

12:57

answer to why I left what I

12:59

considered to be a very

13:01

cushy job at CBS News.

13:03

I was I was now when

13:05

I left, That was the year two

13:07

thousand. Mhmm. So, what,

13:09

I was thirty two years old. And

13:11

I was really I had so much

13:13

vacation time I had been there for ten years.

13:15

I could pick and choose what I did. I was

13:17

a senior producer of all the entertainment

13:19

segments. From the entertainment unit

13:21

on the morning show. I mean, I really

13:23

had a great life,

13:25

but it was because Barry

13:27

Dillard had become a

13:29

friend of mine and he was starting

13:31

this little pop culture and arts

13:33

channel that he had acquired

13:35

called Trio and really all Trio

13:37

was was realist at this point. It

13:39

was I think the distribution was

13:41

only in eighteen million homes, but they

13:44

were gonna get distribution in

13:46

New York City on time Warner Cable, which was

13:48

a big deal and it was gonna happen in, like,

13:50

two years. So we had two years

13:52

to make this channel into

13:55

something. And he knew that

13:57

I was everywhere covering

13:59

everything at CBS News. And he said, well,

14:01

why don't you be in charge of this? It's gonna

14:03

be like a documentary pop

14:05

culture and arts channel. And

14:09

I didn't wanna leave CBS, but

14:11

I thought that the opportunity to work for

14:13

Barry Dillard was

14:15

too big. And it was he

14:17

was offering me a

14:19

career change and offering me

14:21

a place where I could learn

14:23

how to run how

14:25

I could learn how to run production

14:28

at a cable channel. How can I say no to that?

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see DKNG dot co slash

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o h per terms. If I'm

16:43

not mistaken, Bravo's eventually acquired

16:46

Trio, I think. So what

16:48

happened is we Trio,

16:50

we wound up coming up with

16:52

a a great little channel. It

16:54

was mixed with a lot of acquisitions

16:57

And we I think the tentpole thing that

16:59

we did that people remembered us

17:01

from we did a month of documentaries

17:03

and programming around the theme brilliant that

17:06

canceled. That's right. And we had brilliant but

17:08

canceled TV shows. Everything

17:10

from Steven Bocchka's cop

17:12

rock to, you know, just

17:14

all of these shows that of ahead of their time,

17:16

and we we license them

17:18

and broadcast them. And then

17:20

we also, you know, and

17:22

we did a documentary around it. And that

17:25

really got us known and people loved it. And

17:27

we aired the old NBC David

17:29

Letterman shows and tried all this

17:31

stuff. And so in New York City, it became

17:33

something of a of a of a

17:35

cult channel. Trio did. It

17:37

was cool. Yeah. It was cool. And then,

17:39

of course, we became brilliant,

17:41

but canceled ourselves as

17:43

what's wound up And I

17:45

think Barry, we were it was owned

17:47

by USA Television, so we were part we

17:49

were part of USA SciFi. And

17:52

Trio, I think. And then they

17:55

merged with n with Universal and

17:57

then NBC merged with

17:59

Universal. So we became and then

18:01

Bravo was there, and that was

18:03

when I was offered

18:05

by Lauren Zelasnik, the

18:07

job running programming at

18:11

And Lauren had been my boss

18:13

at Trio. And by the way, I didn't

18:15

want the bravo job. I thought

18:17

I didn't I didn't I what

18:20

happened was Viacom was starting

18:23

logo. And logo was gonna be the

18:25

gay channel. And I was like, well, that's what

18:27

I wanna do. I wanna run the gay channel.

18:29

There's no one gayer than 1, and I

18:31

should do this. And I'm perfect. And I

18:33

remember I had a meeting with

18:36

Brian Greaten. It was Brian

18:38

Greaten. And he

18:40

oh, no. Actually, it was pre Brian

18:42

Greaten. It was even before it was

18:44

it was a a lesbian.

18:46

And she want and

18:48

I said, I wanna do

18:53

drag. I said, I think, drag should

18:55

be on there in this. And they were, like, we

18:57

don't want drag on the channel,

18:59

and we now it's built on Rupol's Of

19:01

course. Yeah. Of course. And

19:02

they they told me a couple anyway, I did not

19:04

get the job. And I did wind up talking

19:06

to Brian Granger about I don't

19:08

know if I went back in or what But I'm trying to remember

19:09

now the name of that woman. I cannot recall her name

19:12

who was the original logo person. She was very

19:14

nice. She I didn't get the job, and I couldn't

19:16

get over And when I tell you that was

19:18

so salty about not getting this job,

19:20

I just couldn't get over it. I was like, who

19:22

are these people? Like, this is insane.

19:26

Now, the best thing

19:28

that ever happened to me was that

19:30

I didn't get that job. Like, thank god. I

19:32

wouldn't be talking to you right now. I

19:34

wouldn't have got in a table at the

19:36

waverly inn. I mean, like, you

19:39

wouldn't

19:39

have a fancy microphone from Meghan Markle.

19:42

Right. So then did you bring some of those kinds

19:44

of ideas to Bravo? Because You

19:46

know, originally was very

19:48

arts focused and then it completely

19:49

changed. Bravo was super gay,

19:52

but arguably, Bravo's

19:55

was super gay by the time I got

19:56

there. Where I had just broken

19:59

out. Right.

19:59

They were in the middle of shooting

20:02

season one of project runway. They

20:04

had already had a show called gay

20:06

weddings on. They had had this gay dating

20:08

show called Boy Meets Boy. And I

20:10

think what logo wanted to do was logo

20:13

had this fakakte idea that they

20:15

wanted to be gay without being too gay.

20:17

So they wanted to they

20:19

wanted to be a gay channel, but they wanted

20:21

straight people to watch. And so it was,

20:23

like, well, okay.

20:25

But I think that was kind of what was

20:27

happening. It was, like, watered down

20:28

versus what Bravo was doing. It was

20:29

watered down it was was

20:32

happening at but that just kind of

20:34

happened as a mistake, I think. Just

20:35

like, you know, it was like kind of gay

20:37

gay guys and women watching it.

20:40

What's

20:40

the first thing you got involved with when you got to Well, the first

20:42

thing I got involved with was one of

20:44

my biggest flops, and I was so

20:46

sure of

20:47

it.

20:47

At the time, but it was a

20:50

show that I thought was a brilliant idea

20:52

at Trio. We

20:54

aired Battle of the Network Stars.

20:57

The old battle in the network star

20:59

shows. And I

21:01

loved it so much. And I my

21:04

I said You know what? The real

21:06

stars of today are

21:08

reality stars. Let's go back to

21:10

Pepperdine. Let's get the rights to battle and

21:12

network stars. Let's make it like

21:14

kinda seventies. But let's make it

21:16

all reality stars competing

21:18

against each other. So it was

21:21

everyone from Richard Hatch,

21:25

people from American Idol, people from

21:27

Project Runway. I mean, it was

21:29

everybody. Anyway, they did a big marketing

21:31

campaign around Charlotte from the Amazing

21:33

Race, The Swan. I mean, it was a

21:35

very funny group of people. They did

21:37

a big marketing campaign on it, and it was

21:39

a big bomb. And of course,

21:41

we did research as to why a bomb, and

21:43

they said this was not a show that

21:46

people on People watching didn't

21:48

wanna see this kind of show, but had it been

21:50

on e or VH1, it 1 been

21:52

a big hit. It's a good idea.

21:54

It was a good idea, and it was

21:57

my first great lesson

21:59

in building around your

22:01

brand, programming around your brand. And don't you

22:03

know, we went on to do other shows that were kind

22:05

of off off brand, but

22:07

we then honed our brand and

22:09

we did it very

22:10

well. It's just so funny to think that they

22:12

didn't want they thought people on Braava would

22:14

not wanna watch people like competing and then

22:16

real housewives

22:17

is, like, literally, like, kind of that in a way.

22:20

Well,

22:20

So it's

22:21

not the sport.

22:21

It's not the sport. It's not the sport. Yeah. Exactly. Tell

22:25

us about the Housewives

22:27

franchise and how that

22:29

all started. Now arguably one

22:31

of the biggest franchises at all of pop

22:33

culture.

22:33

Yes. It's incredible

22:35

that this is still going on,

22:38

but I I was in

22:40

charge of current programming. So I

22:42

was in charge of making the

22:44

shows that got greenlit. So that

22:46

was a show that was handed over

22:48

from development sheet. I remember Amy and Tracasso

22:50

Davis coming to me and saying, take

22:52

a look at this. We don't

22:54

know what it is, but we like it.

22:56

We think we like it. And

22:58

it was a VHS tape and it and Vicky Gunvalson was

23:00

on

23:00

it. And a few

23:02

other women who are who didn't wind up being on the

23:04

show, but it was these women in

23:08

Orange County, and their their boobs were

23:10

huge, and their kids were really

23:12

hot. And the way they communicated with their

23:14

kids was, like, all wrong,

23:16

but interesting. And, like, they

23:18

were just, like, this woman was

23:20

an insurance agent and she

23:22

had a grotto in her backyard and her

23:24

boobs were enormous and,

23:26

like, what is this? And

23:28

I think that Scott Dunlop brought it

23:30

to us who wasn't at exec.

23:34

He I don't know

23:36

if he thought

23:38

that this would be like

23:40

a curbier enthusiasm type show because

23:42

there was this weird narrative duration on it.

23:45

I I don't know. Anyway, at

23:47

the time, Desperate Housewives

23:49

was the biggest show on

23:50

ABC, and I

23:53

have always been a huge

23:55

soap opera fan. So in my

23:58

mind, could

24:00

they all these women knew each other,

24:02

so this could be like a soap opera. Could

24:04

this be a soap

24:05

opera? And wouldn't that be great if it was

24:07

a soap opera? And season one,

24:10

it was it was

24:12

weird. The first season of the Housewides and Orange

24:14

County, it's like watching those first Simpsons

24:17

episodes from the Tracy Altman

24:18

show. It's like you see the brilliance, but

24:21

it's not all not

24:21

all there. Yeah. And so I

24:24

think that's what it was.

24:26

There was a lot of drama with

24:28

the people that we hired to produce it

24:30

who not I don't think doing a

24:32

job in our minds that they

24:34

should have been and we wind up getting rid of them

24:36

and bringing someone in for Anyway,

24:38

we there it came to a point where we almost

24:40

killed the show. I remember we had

24:42

a meeting with Lauren

24:45

Zelasnik And the question was, how much

24:47

would we lose if we

24:50

killed this show? And

24:52

for some

24:53

reason, remember, like, a four hundred thousand it was gonna be

24:55

a four hundred thousand dollar loss at that

24:58

point. And That's big for

24:59

cable television. I

25:01

know, but it seems low rates. Seems low. Yeah. Yeah.

25:02

Yeah. Yeah. In retrospect, of course. Yeah. But

25:05

so Lauren said, let's just

25:08

do it.

25:08

And we did it. And

25:11

here we are sixteen years later. Did

25:13

take off immediately? No. It did it. Is it

25:15

like an instant success? Courts the

25:19

end. Lauren was a big

25:21

marathoner. That was her

25:23

thing. And I think That's how they

25:25

broke project runway. how they broke project

25:27

runway. And I think that

25:29

there was were some

25:31

marathons and it started

25:34

to get it didn't catch on

25:36

immediately, but I remember it. It started

25:38

to get a little notice and people

25:40

were there started to be an

25:42

uptick towards the end of the season

25:44

so much that we ordered a reunion

25:46

kind of episode, but there was no one to

25:48

host it. So it was the women

25:50

sitting in Vicki's backyard just

25:52

looking at clips. From the

25:54

season. It was very weird.

25:56

But I seem to remember some

25:58

traction over Christmas time

26:01

and there you go. Now for

26:03

me, the big thing was we were

26:05

starting to shoot season two

26:07

and Gina announced to us

26:09

that she was gonna get divorced.

26:11

And I was like, I felt like a good friend

26:13

of mine had told me that they were

26:15

getting divorced. And then in my mind, I was like, oh my

26:17

god. It's a soap opera. It's

26:19

really a soap opera. Gina's getting

26:21

divorced. And we're gonna And

26:23

what is Gina gonna start dating now? And

26:25

what are her friends gonna say? And, you know, it

26:27

was like the attributes of a

26:30

soap. And, you know, and it

26:31

is, was is and remains. Yeah. And

26:33

that's why it's still going, by the

26:35

way. Yeah. At at what point did it

26:37

occur to you, like, We

26:39

can do this in multiple cities and

26:42

make many versions of

26:42

this. It didn't occur to me. It occurred to

26:45

Lauren's Elastic who the

26:47

original title for the

26:49

original show was the real

26:52

housewives, the

26:54

real housewives. And

26:57

she said, let's not call it

26:58

that. Let's call it the real housewives of

27:01

Orange County in case we ever do it

27:03

anywhere else. And I

27:03

was like, That is the dumbest

27:06

title I've ever heard. I was,

27:08

like, the real housewives of

27:11

Orange Count Lake what

27:13

does that even mean? Like,

27:15

I didn't get it. And of course, there you

27:17

go. We were in development on a show called

27:20

Manhattan moms. And once again, 1 Tricasso Davis

27:22

brings me to this table. And she's like, we think this

27:24

could be like New York Housewives. And I'm

27:26

like, oh, my

27:28

god. I see it. This

27:30

is brilliant. You know, and then

27:32

we had developed and then we developed the

27:34

Jersey housewives. Anyway,

27:36

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29:20

So then you make the big

29:23

switch. So you're you're this behind

29:25

the scenes guy. Things are going

29:26

great. Clearly. Yeah.

29:28

And how does Eddie Cohen

29:30

then end up live on

29:33

television?

29:33

The, you know, for arguments sake, the

29:35

face of bravo? I was

29:39

emailing Lauren and

29:41

Frances Barrick, like, every

29:45

day from the set of battle of the network

29:47

reality stars, I was emailing them all the

29:49

gossip that was happening on, you know, with

29:51

all the reality stars. Because

29:53

it was just so surreal and fellini ask and cracking me

29:56

up. And Lauren,

29:58

who's ever intrepided, said,

30:01

you know what? You should you're a good writer. You

30:03

should write a blog on

30:05

the Braava website, and you'll be the only

30:08

network executive to

30:10

have a blog. This

30:12

was really before

30:14

people were branding themselves. And

30:16

there was little social media

30:19

blogs were really the thing. So I started writing

30:21

this blog. And because of the

30:23

blog, I started getting interviewed

30:27

as kind of a pop culture or a

30:29

TV pundit. On

30:32

CNN, I went on Aaron Brown a

30:34

couple times, and I went

30:36

on random shows. Just talking about the business of

30:38

television or reality TV

30:40

or then I loved it, and

30:42

I thought it was so cool, and

30:44

I was I was very excited about

30:46

all these TV appearances. It was

30:48

it was really exciting for me. And

30:51

then Lauren said, why

30:53

don't you do a

30:56

she wanted to create programming

30:58

for the website, for bravo tv dot

31:01

com. So she had me do she said, would you

31:03

wanna do a live show

31:06

after top chef? On bravo tv

31:08

dot com with you and the eliminated chef, and you

31:11

could take calls from viewers

31:13

and emails. And I said, yeah. And I

31:15

did it out of a closet at CNBC,

31:18

and literally in Englewood, New

31:20

Jersey, that was where the facility was

31:23

that could broadcast online

31:27

And I did it. I did it for a

31:29

season or two of Top Chef and for a season of

31:31

Project Runway. She said it'll be an

31:33

extension of your blog. And

31:35

then and they got it sponsored,

31:37

so it kinda started making a little

31:39

money. And then we needed

31:41

someone to host the season two

31:43

house size of Orange County Union. And she said, would

31:45

you wanna do it? And it'll be

31:48

like your watch

31:50

what happens live the the show

31:52

online, but on

31:54

TV. And we called it a watch what

31:56

happened special. And then that's what all

31:58

the reunions were called. And I went on to

32:00

do reunion shows for

32:02

flipping out and this show

32:04

work out and just other

32:06

shows that were unbravo, millionaire matchmaker,

32:09

And the whole time, I was still in charge

32:11

of programming, and I wasn't pitching

32:14

myself to do this stuff. But

32:16

I was the reunions were

32:18

doing well. I was doing it,

32:20

you know, I was, like, just pay me a hundred

32:22

1. Like, pay me the minimum

32:24

you know, I didn't because I also didn't want them

32:27

to think that I thought I was worth

32:29

anything as a host because

32:31

I knew that I

32:33

wasn't, you know. So they were letting

32:35

me do it. It was not this

32:37

was not anything but. And I

32:39

thought one day 1 will be a

32:41

day maybe when I am or something to them where I

32:43

can kinda monetize this in

32:45

a big way.

32:46

Mhmm. So in in terms of watch what

32:49

happens live, how did you come up with kind of the

32:51

format? Because one of the things I love

32:53

about it is just it feels like people are willing

32:55

to say things that they would not

32:57

necessarily say on other shows, and certainly

32:59

some of that is the alcohol. But they they

33:01

will cop to things. And I think part of it is the

33:03

format that you've

33:03

created. Howard Bauchner: I

33:04

do too, and I think part of it is just that

33:06

I just will ask them

33:09

point blank things. And I think

33:11

and the format came about from

33:13

the web show really that

33:15

web show, I was like, I wanna play a game. I'd

33:17

play more than one game now. But I was like,

33:19

I wanna play 1 wanna play games

33:22

and I want to take viewer

33:24

calls. In in my mind, it was like a twisted

33:26

version of, like, Larry King Live

33:28

meets playboy after dark meets the

33:30

Robin Bird show, basically. And

33:33

so so watch what happens live,

33:35

the the show that's still on

33:37

now thirteen and a half years

33:38

in. Michael Davies, the great

33:40

producer Michael Dray

33:41

Michael Davies. Yep. He came to

33:44

and said, I have this

33:46

little studio in my production

33:48

company. I could broadcast Andy's show from this

33:51

studio on Bravo for

33:53

very little money.

33:54

And I think Corey Abraham who was in charge

33:56

of development at the time got

33:58

him down. They said to me, would you wanna do this?

34:00

I said, absolutely. Corey

34:03

got him down to, like, fifty thousand dollars

34:05

in episode or fifty

34:07

two thousand dollars an episode, which

34:09

is nothing. I mean, thirteen and a

34:11

half years ago, that was nothing.

34:13

So that was it would started. And I remember we were

34:15

at he and I had lunch at the Palm when he was pitching

34:17

me the idea, and he said, what would you want the show

34:19

to be? I

34:22

said, I wanna do three little bits of business at the top of the show called

34:24

here's what? I wanna play a game in the

34:26

second act and I wanna do a muzzle and a

34:28

jack hall at the end of the

34:29

show. And that was

34:32

and it still basically is that

34:34

format. And how how long did you

34:35

lead to double life of executive and on

34:37

air personality? Long

34:40

time. First, I gave

34:42

up my job at Well,

34:44

you know what? It took a while because first it

34:46

was on once a week. Right. Then it

34:48

was on twice a week. And then when

34:51

it moved five days a week, I stopped being in charge

34:53

of original program. I was at that

34:55

point EVP of production

34:58

and development. I stopped being in charge of production, but stayed

35:00

being in charge of development.

35:02

So I would run development. That

35:04

was my day job, and then do watch

35:07

what happens live five days a

35:09

week. And then we wound up after a year

35:11

of that or something. I I

35:14

gave that up and I

35:16

just did

35:17

you know, this and the reunions, and I was able to

35:19

keep being an executive producer at the Housewives,

35:21

which was great.

35:22

Mhmm. I wanna ask you

35:25

about my favorite segment on what happens live, which is

35:27

the plead the fifth segment? Yes. First of all,

35:29

how did

35:29

you come up with the idea? Second of all, what is

35:31

your favorite answer to that? Question.

35:33

Oh, wow. Or one of the most memorable

35:35

ones. 1 by the

35:36

way, I do just wanna say in answer to

35:39

your thing about people answering everything

35:41

on the show, it really I

35:43

think the combination of the alcohol, but

35:46

also I think people were really surprised

35:48

by the questions that I

35:50

was asking And I think that the

35:52

way that I got the balls to ask those

35:54

questions is that I had already been doing

35:56

so many housewiser unions. So

35:58

I wasn't scared to ask

36:00

people incredibly personal, sometimes offensive questions in front

36:02

of a camera. And then when

36:06

when the show started, some friends of mine started coming

36:08

on like Sarah Jessica Parker at

36:11

Liam Mason and Jerry Seinfeld

36:13

were all doing me favors. And I certainly

36:16

felt comfortable enough with them

36:18

that I could start, you know,

36:20

stirring up trouble and

36:22

saying this Jessica. Tell me about dating JFK Junior. Like, what

36:24

kind of kisser was he?

36:26

And so I think all that

36:28

built up and I was a big

36:30

Howard Stern fan,

36:32

and that also informed

36:34

me. I wanted to be like him.

36:36

But, play the fifth when

36:38

we went five nights a week,

36:40

we were looking for gimmicks to

36:43

highlight that we were on

36:45

five nights a week. And

36:48

plead the fifth was one of the things pitched to

36:50

me by the team, fifth being,

36:52

you know, something funny with the

36:55

number five. I was like, oh, that's a great

36:57

game. Three questions. You can only play the fifth to

37:00

one. And we've been

37:02

playing it in funny thing is just

37:04

the combination of the lighting cue and

37:06

the music, people take

37:08

it very seriously and

37:10

they think that they have to answer

37:12

everything. And we really you know, and the truth is I will accept

37:14

anything because I don't want people to

37:18

be uncomfortable applicable. I obviously want them to name names,

37:20

but, you know, you always

37:22

we the creation of the plead the fifth

37:24

questions is always really fun because

37:28

you know, you're trying to you're trying to come

37:30

up with stuff that's gonna make news and that people

37:32

are gonna answer, but that also

37:35

is considered really provocative. Gosh,

37:38

my favorite questions. There have been

37:41

so many. I asked

37:43

I asked Mariah

37:46

Carey say three can you say three nice things about Nicki

37:48

Minaj? She said, can you?

37:55

I asked Marilyn Streep, Shag

37:57

Mary killed Redford,

38:00

Justin Hoffman, and Jack Nicholson. I think

38:03

she shagged Jack Nicholson married Redford and

38:05

killed Hoffman hilarious. I

38:07

asked Susan Sarandon,

38:10

what's an

38:12

award show have you ever been to an award show stone? She

38:14

goes, have I ever been to an award show

38:16

stone? She said, I've been to

38:18

every award

38:20

show stone accept the Oscars, which was a great that wound up

38:22

making a lot of news. I mean, we've

38:24

had we've made

38:26

we've made a lot of news on play

38:29

the fifth. It's like Watch what happens live

38:31

is chum for the

38:34

gossip mill. I mean, we have

38:38

created arguably more

38:40

gossip, I think, certainly than any

38:42

other late night talk show in our thirteen and

38:44

a half year run because it's just

38:46

It is all clickbait that comes from the

38:47

show. It's ridiculous. It's good

38:50

stuff. You mentioned late night

38:52

television. Your show, as you

38:54

also mentioned, go in thirteen

38:56

years, you are renewed through twenty

38:58

twenty three. So we got a bunch

39:00

of late night hosts on here. We've had

39:02

Jimmy Kimmel. We've had John Stewart. We've had

39:04

Chelsea

39:04

Handler. We've had and we talk a lot about

39:06

the future of late night

39:09

TV.

39:09

Yeah. You

39:10

are

39:10

you know, you

39:11

brought a whole new thing till late night.

39:13

You're now a fixture of late night TV. What you have

39:15

thoughts about where late night's going and as a as

39:17

a daypart? And is I really

39:19

don't. I mean, does Dave Park, does that term

39:21

even exist anymore? Exactly.

39:22

Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

39:25

I was amazed reading.

39:28

I've been kinda out of the loop about network television ratings,

39:32

but I was amazed

39:34

when I saw other

39:36

day that Mariah Carey Christmas special

39:38

won the night for CBS with three

39:40

point nine total three point

39:43

nine million total

39:43

viewers. And I was

39:45

like, wow. This is where we are.

39:47

This is the number one show on

39:49

network television. So

39:52

The answer is, I don't know. It's gonna very interesting

39:55

to see how how is

39:57

this all sustainable? I don't

39:59

know. I don't

40:02

know. Know, thankfully, the budget for my show is

40:04

relatively low certainly compared to

40:06

all the other late night shows.

40:09

Right. You're

40:11

you're I'm assuming you're on you're on peacock. Right? As

40:13

well? We are yeah. We're on peacock and

40:15

bravo. Right. And you

40:18

know, but the numbers, the ratings, the live ratings. I

40:21

mean, it's incredible to

40:23

me how where

40:25

we're at just as a

40:28

medium. And so I not only

40:30

can not predict the

40:32

future of late

40:32

night, I can't predict the future

40:35

of anything because it's

40:36

It's a

40:37

scary world. I will say it's

40:40

I think bravo

40:43

bravo is perhaps I

40:47

mean, I don't know what else, but it's one of the

40:49

very few networks that

40:51

has any brand identity

40:54

that means

40:56

anything to anyone at this point. I can't well, that's that's

40:58

exactly right. That's a you you got a great brand,

41:00

but you're you're one of the few networks that's actually

41:03

still doing some original

41:06

programming. Like, a

41:06

lot of the cast networks have back

41:07

you know, MTV and Comedy Central kind of

41:10

backed off of that completely. And

41:12

and Bravo still you guys got great shows

41:14

over there. I know. Listen and we we just had bravo con, which

41:16

is, I mean, the fact that thirty thousand

41:18

people traveled to

41:21

New York City to spend

41:24

three days at the Javits Center and

41:26

at the Hammerstein

41:26

Baller. I mean, that's an

41:30

incredible

41:30

statement. You

41:30

know? They do have one other question before Jen is our traditional final question,

41:32

which is we ask everybody where you'll see our

41:35

final question. But what I wanna know

41:37

from you is Do you have a

41:39

favorite Grateful Dead

41:39

concert? Oh, 1 got

41:40

a favorite Grateful

41:41

Dead concert? Yeah. You

41:44

know what?

41:45

I really don't

41:50

because they're all something

41:52

so special and also because

41:56

Usually,

41:56

by the end, I'm in some

41:58

sort of altered state.

42:00

First? Yeah. I mean, but I've had

42:03

I will say Do you still go to, like,

42:05

these revamped ed shows? I do. You know, the

42:07

Like, the John Mayer

42:07

shows and the

42:10

whole thing? The the incredible thing. First of all, I will

42:12

say maybe my favorite was I drove with

42:14

my friend JJ to Alpine Alpine

42:16

Valley, Wisconsin

42:18

when I was in high school. And my mom,

42:20

I slept in my convertible, in the parking lot, my Buick

42:23

Skylar nineteen seventy two

42:26

convertible. And in the parking lot, and I camped out for the weekend in

42:28

the parking lot of Alpine Valley, which is amazing

42:30

that they would let you do that at the

42:34

time. I think that that was pretty special, but

42:36

John Mayer and I are really

42:38

good buddies. And we

42:40

were really good buddies years

42:43

ago when he was getting into the dead,

42:45

and it made us closer. And at

42:48

the time, he spent a week

42:50

subbing between James Gordon

42:52

and well, before James Gordon took

42:54

the late show, John hosted it for

42:56

a week and I was a guest one night

42:58

and he had Bob Weir and the dead on and he played

43:00

with them. And I believe that was around

43:02

the time that it was the inception

43:06

of John joining the group and them touring. And

43:08

John and I took a road trip to see

43:10

the ferdy well concerts together

43:13

and John was secretly gonna join the

43:16

group and to have my

43:18

friend join

43:20

this group. That I that meant

43:22

so much to me that I hadn't seen

43:24

touring since

43:26

Jerry died. I I've

43:28

been not only have I been on the

43:30

road with them so much, but I've been,

43:32

you know, kind of I I'm, like,

43:34

have become great friends with, like, the real

43:36

housewives of the great full

43:38

dead. And I've got Leer has

43:40

been on my show a bunch of

43:42

times, and I introduced them at

43:44

City Field this summer one night.

43:46

And so I've gotten

43:48

to live I've gotten access

43:50

to the dead that has just absolutely

43:53

blown my mind completely

43:55

because of John, and it's a wonderful just

43:58

gift that's happened in my life. As

44:00

I say, you are the envy of

44:02

deadheads everywhere. I'm yeah. Well, I mean, we're we're all just

44:04

happy they're back, you know, and and

44:06

touring

44:06

around, you know. What's better? Getting a

44:08

table at

44:08

the waverly inn or having this

44:12

access to the

44:13

Grateful That's a good question. I'm gonna go with

44:15

the Grateful Dead access. So

44:19

Alright.

44:19

That's fair. Okay. So our

44:22

last question, which is also

44:24

something we ask of all of our

44:25

guests. What

44:26

outside of your own work? So like, let's say

44:28

outside of Bravo, is your favorite basic

44:31

a cable show of all time?

44:32

Oh my god. That's such a

44:34

hard

44:34

question. Oh my god.

44:37

My favorite basic cable

44:40

show of all

44:41

time.

44:41

I think it would have to

44:44

be the

44:46

real world.

44:48

Because it was an absolute John

44:50

robuster. It changed MTV.

44:54

It changed

44:56

my life. I was a

44:58

soap opera fan. I

45:00

immediately when it started,

45:02

it blew my mind in the way. There've only been

45:04

a couple shows I would say I would say the

45:06

real world and survivor

45:08

were two shows that when they

45:10

started my

45:12

TV obsessed mind was absolutely blown

45:15

because it just seemed

45:17

like an infinite universe

45:22

that had been created, and it

45:24

could go and go and go

45:26

and and and I just thought,

45:28

wow, this is gonna change everything.

45:31

And both shows did. I did.

45:33

Yeah.

45:33

Yeah. Yeah. Anyhow, thank

45:34

you so much for being here. We really

45:37

appreciate it.

45:37

Thank you for

45:38

having me. It's Thanks

45:39

for your pleasure.

45:40

I love talking TV with

45:42

you guys.

45:43

It was fun. So, Jack, that

45:46

was such a fun conversation with

45:48

Andy Cohen And

45:50

it's just so interesting that he started out, like, behind the

45:52

camera, really on the hard news side of things

45:54

or hard harder than certainly what we

45:56

see on Bravo, which is purely entertainment.

45:59

1 feel like a lot of

46:01

people don't remember that about him. Like, where his roots are and where he came

46:03

from. Right. No. He real look, he's a

46:05

student of television. He loves

46:08

television. That was I think why it was so much fun to talk to He

46:10

just really loves talking about TV. But

46:12

yeah, I know he has had such

46:16

an and, you know, I think the interesting thing is, you know, he was never

46:18

going to be able to be himself,

46:20

I think as a newscaster, which is

46:22

I think what his early ambition was.

46:25

And he found himself at the right network, at the right time, and

46:28

he gets to be Andy Cohen.

46:30

And he does it pretty

46:31

well, doesn't He does. I mean, I I really do love

46:34

watching watch what happens live. I think it's a really

46:36

fun talk show that for whatever reason,

46:38

sometimes it doesn't get talked

46:40

about much as far as

46:42

being part of the late night landscape, but

46:44

it absolutely is. And I think it's a really

46:46

fun, the way that he's

46:48

formatted it. And I just like,

46:50

cannot believe how huge the real housewife

46:52

still is. I mean, that is that

46:54

franchise is, like, bigger than the MCU

46:56

practically. When you sit down and you

46:59

look at all the shows that they've

47:00

made, all the spin offs, and and the longevity

47:02

of it. It's incredible. I mean yeah.

47:04

And I it's amazing to me what big

47:06

stars all those women I mean, they're huge

47:09

celebrities and and in their own rights, you know, you see them on

47:11

commercials, you see them on talk shows, you see them

47:13

doing all kinds of things endorsements.

47:16

And, yeah, I mean, it's an ecosystem that, you know,

47:18

shows no sign of slowing down. You

47:20

know, like the real world, it's one of those formats

47:22

that you you can kind of re

47:24

populate and reinvent a million times as you go along and somehow

47:27

the audience can't seem to get enough of it.

47:29

Yeah. I mean Andy talked

47:31

about it being like a soap opera

47:33

and envisioned know if you have an opinion on this, but do you do you

47:35

think that's really why it continues to be so

47:38

popular because it is basically a

47:40

soap opera?

47:42

I mean, there's yeah. I mean, I think that's part of it.

47:44

I do think a lot of it has to do with the

47:46

kind of, you know, sort of personalities they're

47:49

able to cast and and

47:51

and get in front of the

47:52

camera. I mean, I think they've had

47:55

there's been some really

47:58

fascinating outrageous funny,

48:02

distinctive personalities

48:04

along the way. And I think

48:06

if you're a viewer of the show, you look forward to

48:08

who you're going to get each season or who

48:10

might be added or when they're starting

48:12

a new one, what 1 might

48:15

be all like. So I think it's a combination of, you know, sort

48:17

of great storytelling and great characters, which is good that's

48:19

good

48:19

television. No matter what you're doing. Right? Exactly. I

48:22

also feel

48:24

like it it taps into at least from an

48:26

American perspective are kind of conflicting

48:28

feelings about

48:29

wealth. Because on one hand, you can watch

48:31

it and sort of luxury

48:34

in the over the topness of of the lifestyles

48:36

these people have, but you can also be

48:38

like, oh, these people are terrible. I'm

48:41

I'm much more in control of my emotions than these women

48:43

are. And so it's like this edge sort of like

48:45

Yeah. Feeling feeling both

48:46

bad about yourself. Like, yeah, I don't have a hot

48:48

tub in, you know, in my house, but but

48:51

on the other hand, you

48:52

know, I don't necessarily maybe want

48:54

to be then. But no. It's,

48:57

you know, look, that it's

48:59

American in

48:59

a nutshell. Probably, which is also, which is

49:02

which is also why it works. So Absolutely.

49:04

Well,

49:04

hope you thought this worked as

49:06

well. And Jen and I were

49:09

happy to have Andy. We're happy you came

49:10

along, and we look forward to seeing

49:13

you next time

49:15

on basic.

49:16

Basic is a Pantheon media production in partnership

49:19

with SiriusXM. Hosted by Jen Cheney and

49:21

Doug Herzog. Produced

49:22

by Christian

49:23

Swain and Peter Ferrioli.

49:26

Lindley

49:27

Ehrlich is our assistant producer. Sound and music by

49:28

Jerry Daniels. Mixed and mastered

49:31

by

49:31

Brian Slusher. Recording and

49:33

edited by Zach You

49:36

can find basic on Apple Podcasts,

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49:43

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49:43

listen. If you like the show, please rate, review, and

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49:50

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