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1, it's Doug from Basic and guess

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it. Now stay tuned for the show.

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0:51

Today on basic, the creators of

0:53

The Daily Show', Madelyn Smithberg and

0:56

Liz Winstead. We

0:58

were watching so much of television

1:01

news and media that one

1:03

day we just said, what if we pretend

1:06

were them? And it was Lizz an

1:08

aha moment and it solved

1:10

our problem. What Doug has said

1:12

to me in the beginning was I want a

1:14

show that will do for comedy

1:16

send show what sports center does

1:19

for

1:19

ESPN. It's sort of Lizz sports

1:22

center for news and I was Lizz whatever that

1:24

means. And then it was Lizz, it a

1:26

show that was out every day. And I remember it

1:28

was like Marilyn, let's just call it Daily Show, and I tried

1:30

to be funny about it, and then that stuff.

1:32

The network really wanted to be a little

1:34

bit more entertainment focus than Marilyn

1:36

and I were with the

1:37

news. Well,

1:38

they would say more pop culture, more pop culture, more pop

1:41

culture, more pop culture. And that was Doug,

1:43

and I was

1:43

Nice. Ignored it. Hey,

1:46

I'm Doug Herzog, former TV executive, and

1:48

I'm still looking for my moment Lizz And

1:51

I'm Jen Cheney, TV critic for Vulture in

1:53

New York magazine. And this is my

1:55

moment of Zen. You are listening to basic.

1:58

Hey. We're the official podcast of the unofficial

2:00

history of basic cable television. We

2:02

talk about everything from MTV to Mad Men,

2:04

exploring the shows, networks, personalities,

2:07

and milestone moments that define TV

2:09

in the glorious era of basic

2:11

cable. Today, our guests are Madelyn

2:13

Smithburg and Liz Winstead, co creators

2:15

of Comedy Central's The Daily Show, which

2:17

went on to become one of the most influential shows

2:20

in late night history. Natalie and Liz and I

2:22

go all the way back together, and we'll see if

2:24

our memories and recalls still line up after all these

2:26

years. I'm anxious to hear all about it and

2:28

possibly play a referee if I need to.

2:30

So let's started with Madeleine Smithburg

2:32

and Liz Winston. We'll

2:37

welcome Madeleine Smithburg and

2:39

Liz Winston to basic We're gonna

2:41

kick this off the way we always

2:42

do. Do either of you remember when you first

2:45

got cable television? Yes. I do.

2:47

Tell us about that battle. I was in

2:49

college. And it was my

2:51

senior year. So that would have been nineteen

2:53

eighty one. I had an accident.

2:56

I got eleven stitches in my

2:58

finger making my bed. Don't ask.

3:01

And it was kind of house

3:03

bound because I couldn't, like, hurt

3:05

to even do anything. And

3:07

I got HBO. Does that count?

3:09

Well, we're talking basic here, but that's

3:11

okay. We'll allow it. It's fine.

3:13

We'll allow that. Alright. And I watched officer

3:16

and a gentleman I think

3:18

I watched it, like, twenty times. But

3:20

you can't ever linger. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

3:22

Yeah. And that was

3:24

the beginning. A lot of booties. How

3:26

about you, Liz? You remember cable?

3:27

You know, I don't remember when I got

3:30

cable, but I do remember

3:32

when my brother got cable because

3:35

I couldn't afford cable. And

3:37

my brother got cable and my baby sat his

3:39

kids and ate a water bed.

3:41

And I was a punk rock kid in Minneapolis

3:43

Lizz I sat on his water bed and

3:46

I just watched video

3:48

after video, Chuck Stettler video of

3:50

Lizz Castello after Chuck Stettler video,

3:52

and I couldn't believe that

3:54

there was this channel MTV

3:58

that was just showing me every

4:00

band I loved in all these like, it

4:02

was the greatest thing ever. It

4:04

was awesome. So that was my,

4:06

like, remember defining moment of, like,

4:08

when can I afford to have this in my house?

4:10

Got

4:10

it. Show' I wanted to know if you guys

4:13

could talk about how you met because I know you worked

4:15

on the John Stewart Show'. You also, I

4:16

think, lived in the same apartment building.

4:18

Which thing came first? Lizz moved

4:20

in upstairs for me in

4:22

a really beautiful we lived in a brownstone

4:25

on West twentieth Street on what was

4:27

called a seminary block because there was

4:29

this beautiful, opiscopal Seminary in

4:31

that was staring. And one

4:33

day, somebody moves into the apartment

4:35

upstairs and immediately has a party.

4:38

And I remember thinking, uh-oh,

4:41

and then we met. And

4:44

I was like, oh my god. This is

4:46

Cool. And we immediately became

4:49

really good friends and started hanging out.

4:51

And I was on the John

4:53

Stewart Show' and we adjust

4:56

left MTV and gotten syndicated

4:58

by Paramount, which was the beginning of the

5:00

end. And John hated when

5:02

of our segment producers because she was a

5:04

experienced segment producer, but she wasn't

5:06

funny. And he said, I need a comedian

5:08

to be a segment producer. 1 well, I got one

5:10

upstairs. And so I asked

5:12

Liz, hey, do you wanna be a segment

5:14

producer? And she's like,

5:16

yeah, that is awesome.

5:18

And so Lizz came on the John Stewart Show'

5:21

and that was both how we met

5:23

and how we started working together.

5:25

This is my version. And I know

5:27

that and I know I will be correct

5:29

it and update it, but this is my

5:31

origin story, and I'm gonna stand

5:33

by it. This is my perception, and

5:35

I'm sure it's different from everyone else's, but I'll do

5:37

the baseline. So As

5:39

soon as Doug Herzog and Eileen Cats

5:41

move from MTV where they had

5:43

hired me and give me my first job, actually

5:46

being a show runner because I had been

5:48

a segment producer at late night with

5:50

David Letterman. And they had so much confidence

5:52

to me that they hired me to do a job I'd never

5:54

done. And then supported

5:56

me with Lori Rich, most incredible producer

5:58

in the world. Doug and Aileen

6:00

go to Comedy Central and immediately call

6:02

me ask me if I wanna run original programming

6:05

and I look at Aileen, I go, no.

6:08

Like, that's not me. I'm not an executive.

6:10

And then they said, Doug said, well,

6:12

we're doing this daily show and

6:14

you'd be perfect for it. And I said,

6:17

Doug, I'm trying to get pregnant. I

6:19

don't wanna do a daily show. I'm

6:21

done. Move on. And,

6:23

you know, moved on. There might

6:25

have been something about you can't afford it as

6:27

well. That's coming later. Oh,

6:30

sorry. Sorry. Show'

6:32

Liz and me and Jonathan, my

6:34

ex, who was still friends and

6:36

very funny guy. We're watching TV 1 and

6:38

we come up with this brainstorm. We have an idea

6:40

for a show and the show is called the network. And

6:42

it's like, if Larry Sanders had been about

6:44

an entire TV network and

6:47

it was the worst cable network in

6:49

the world and all the programs

6:51

on it were awful, and we

6:53

were just satirizing all

6:55

of television. And some of the shows

6:57

we invented then became actual Show'. We

7:00

had one that was a spoof on cops that was

7:02

still dots, and it was about people

7:04

getting their cars towed, and that became

7:06

a real show. Like, you couldn't even

7:08

exaggerate it And we had this

7:10

idea and we went to lunch with Eileen, Lizz, the

7:12

next day, and Eileen Katz took us in a

7:14

taxi from that

7:16

restaurant on eleventh Street that was really fabulous.

7:18

And we went up to Doug's office

7:20

at seven seventy five Broadway. And

7:22

we pitched the Show', and Doug and Aileen set

7:25

Lizz, myself, and Elise Roth. Who

7:27

was my business partner in half

7:29

baked productions, which was supposed to be about

7:31

food, but I was ahead of myself. They

7:33

set us up in a development deal and they put us

7:35

in an office and we started playing.

7:37

And this is my story of a Doug

7:39

that every, like, three weeks, Doug

7:41

would come in and go. Please do the

7:43

daily show. Please do the daily show Show' I go.

7:45

No. And then one day

7:47

Wait. Wait. But I have to say all of

7:49

this time. Every time madeleine would

7:51

say no. I'm like fuck you madeleine.

7:53

Say yes. Because I liked

7:55

this network thing, but this

7:57

daily show thing was, like, literally,

8:00

what I have been working for

8:02

in my old a rear and back. I was no. And

8:04

I was

8:04

like, are you kidding me?

8:06

My memory of it, Doug, and correct me if

8:08

I'm wrong, is I go out 1

8:11

to use the restroom and get some

8:13

water. And in

8:15

my version of the story, Doug

8:17

pushes me against them

8:18

all, but not in a meet you way in,

8:21

like, that

8:21

comes later in, like, a

8:24

friend away. And he

8:26

says these words. Manalyn

8:28

Smithberg, what are you

8:30

doing? You're in there creating

8:33

a show I can't

8:35

afford to make. This is

8:37

the job you were born to

8:39

do. And then he said the

8:41

magic words. You don't even have

8:43

to do a pilot.

8:45

I will give you a

8:47

year to figure out what it is, and

8:49

I'm gonna put most of the

8:51

production budget and almost all of my

8:53

promotional budget behind your

8:55

show. And I loved to them and I went,

8:57

oh, And I

8:59

went back in the office where in my

9:01

memory of it, Elise and Lizz, I

9:03

go, okay, ladies. The plan

9:05

is changing, and

9:07

I got blank stares and then

9:10

shrugs, and then we just all took the

9:12

cards down. And

9:14

started putting cards up. And

9:16

we invented the daily but it

9:18

wasn't until Brian Unger came on the

9:20

show and a couple of the writers that

9:23

we nailed it and I remember us

9:25

nailing it in a room together.

9:28

Brian had come from traditional TV

9:30

news, and he was disgusted, and

9:32

Liz was disgusted. And we were

9:34

disgusted. The media was awful, and it was

9:36

also during a time when Twenty four

9:38

hour cable networks were sprouting sprouting

9:40

up, like, weeds.

9:41

No. No. Mm-mm. That is

9:43

important. Okay. No. This is

9:45

my memory. And Stone

9:49

Phillips, the this was when the NBC

9:51

primetime schedule was in, like,

9:53

post Seinfeld disarray. Dateline

9:56

was on five nights a

9:58

week, and we would study

10:00

Stone Phillips. I always say he deserved

10:02

created credit along with Brian who I do

10:04

think really did. But because we

10:06

studied his furrowed brow,

10:08

his head tilts, his walk

10:10

in talks, his camera turns,

10:12

we were watching so much of television

10:15

news and media that

10:17

one day we just

10:18

said, what if we pretend were

10:20

them? And it was an aha moment

10:23

and it solved our problem

10:25

because the more serious we pretended

10:28

to be the more we would

10:30

go to what I call silly town

10:32

because you'd be anchored in the

10:34

reality of trying to be self important

10:36

and that really for

10:38

me was like a single moment

10:40

when it all

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clear. Show'

12:01

Lizz? Yes. What do you remember was

12:03

the, like, sort of, brief

12:05

you got from Comedy Central on the Daily

12:06

Show. Like, what were the marching orders as far as you

12:09

were concerned? Well, first, we got

12:11

some kind of, like, it's sort

12:13

of, like, sports center for news, and I was,

12:15

like, whatever that means. And then I was, like,

12:17

I don't know what that means. It wanted to show Show' it

12:19

was out every day. And I remember it was, like,

12:21

Madeline, let's just call it the Daily Show, and I tried to

12:23

be funny about it, and then that

12:25

stopped. I remember that one of the

12:27

things as we were developing it,

12:29

that was I guess I would

12:31

call it a source of, like,

12:33

creative differences. I felt

12:35

like the network really wanted to

12:37

be a little bit more entertainment focus than

12:39

Marilyn and I were with the

12:40

news. Well, they would say more pop

12:43

culture, more pop culture.

12:44

More pop

12:44

culture, more pop culture. And that was done.

12:46

He just

12:46

ignored it. Well, and

12:49

my Show' was in the

12:51

greater landscape of the network,

12:53

we need to be in bed with

12:55

all these pop culture people. So why do

12:57

we want to skewer

12:59

them. That doesn't have longevity. Let's skew

13:01

the big guys and

13:02

then, like, have the pop culture guests

13:04

on and then feel like they're having fun. What Doug

13:06

has said to me in the beginning was

13:08

I want a show that will

13:10

do for Comedy Central what Sports

13:12

Center does for

13:14

ESPN, which is if

13:16

something happens in the world of

13:18

sports, everybody turns to sports

13:20

centers. So ours was to be, if anything

13:22

happened in the world, everybody

13:25

would have to tune to the Daily Show on

13:27

Comedy Central to see how it

13:29

was handled. And I think we fulfilled your

13:31

task.

13:31

You did. Yeah. Absolutely. Lizz,

13:34

I think you're totally right about how you

13:36

guys were looking at the show pre cable

13:38

news networks. You guys were almost

13:40

sort of focused on, like, local news ports,

13:42

our member. Mhmm. Oh, and to the

13:44

point that you also

13:45

said, Newscasts don't have audiences.

13:49

Oh, right. Oh, my God. We Oh, my

13:50

God. You're not idiots. A

13:53

bad battle. A bad battle.

13:55

And I will stand

13:57

by one of my worst suggestion

13:59

and hills that I think

14:02

I died on was

14:04

let's not have an advantage

14:07

for a comedy show. So

14:09

-- Well, Liz and I are adamant. It's gonna

14:11

affect the purity of our beautiful,

14:14

satirical work. And Doug's not

14:16

having it. And so he books us to

14:18

Sally just see Rafael show and

14:20

their audience. So the audience

14:22

was, like, half in Walkers

14:24

and they were just gonna come to

14:26

a TV day in the middle of the day and

14:28

we're on this brightly colored

14:30

set. But we put a

14:32

show we'd already done on its feet in front of

14:34

this audience and I think I was timing

14:36

it. Lizz seven minutes

14:38

in, Liz and I said, we can stop.

14:40

We're wrong. You're right. Let's get this an

14:42

audience. So now we're in a thousand

14:44

square foot stage. It was the

14:46

old McNeil Lara studio in

14:48

what's now the Hudson hotel. I've had

14:50

apartments that were larger. And

14:53

not only do we have a set and

14:55

cameras, but now we have to put a

14:57

hundred people. And I think the bleachers

14:59

were, like, vertical. Like, people were on

15:01

each

15:01

other. People were, like, piggy backing on each other

15:03

just to get in there, but we did it. You

15:05

did

15:05

it? We got an audience in

15:08

there and it changed

15:10

the show so much. It became just so

15:12

much more fun and there's

15:14

a reason why comedy needs

15:16

an audience. That whole thing was really

15:18

Doug's vision, Lizz, Doug

15:20

had this vision and

15:22

we came in and we were, like, the architects

15:24

that tried to, like, build

15:27

the thing that would be

15:29

his vision and

15:31

to your credit, Doug, of you

15:33

and I lean, you've let us

15:35

really do what we did. I mean, I

15:37

always think that, like, I

15:39

hired Stephen Colbert without

15:42

ever getting approval. I just

15:44

thought he was funny and I booked him

15:46

and he came on the

15:47

Show'. That would never

15:50

happen today. So I

15:52

wanna go back for a second to

15:54

when Craig Kilbourne came on because I

15:56

believe that you had a first meeting

15:58

with him where if the

16:00

history that I've read is accurate, he

16:02

would've been fired, like, instantly if he had said

16:04

what he said in this

16:05

meeting. But can you tell people

16:07

about that? Liz, you got that?

16:11

Sadly, I do. And this is

16:13

where and this is, I think, where Matt and

16:15

I sort of have differences I'd like feeling

16:18

the difference in being a woman in

16:20

this. And part of that is when you

16:22

are at the top, you

16:24

might not see as much because

16:26

people have to pretend that things are

16:28

okay -- Mhmm. -- to their bosses and

16:30

especially at your percent job. So Craig

16:32

Kilbourne walks into the office starts

16:34

talking. Can't remember where it went, but

16:36

volunteers to Doug that

16:38

he loves brown sugar and that he

16:41

actually

16:41

I remember the quote. Go ahead.

16:43

We're in my office. It is

16:45

Madeleine Smithburg, Liz and

16:47

the aforementioned Aileen Katz who was the

16:50

executives on the Show', and head development. Craig

16:52

Kilborn 1 in. He goes, hey, some of you

16:54

guys used to work for MTV. And

16:56

Eileen and I sort of like, yeah. Yeah. Show'

16:58

goes, Do you know Julie Brown?

17:00

We're like, yeah, of course. He goes,

17:02

oh, he goes, because I love the brown sugar. And

17:04

that's

17:04

when you should've fired him.

17:08

And

17:08

so yeah. Liz, you could pick up the story for me. Oh, yeah.

17:10

So I was we're all

17:12

in shock. Me and Aileen and

17:15

Liz were like, No.

17:17

Applied a glass coffee

17:19

table. I thought was going to

17:21

leap across the coffee table and choke the

17:23

light at

17:24

it. Right. But I also wanna

17:26

say, like, in the interest of being

17:29

truthful that it went

17:29

unchecked, told me something,

17:32

told me I can't call shit

17:34

out.

17:34

Mhmm. Yeah. And it did. The

17:37

thing that I will say for Craig

17:39

is that any other host

17:42

would never have given show Show'

17:44

ability to find

17:46

its structure and roots.

17:48

And because All

17:50

he did was read and he had pretty good

17:52

timing. I thought him as kind of a Ted

17:54

Baxter character. His

17:56

timing was great. He looked

17:58

the part and he would read the words and do the

18:00

joke's justice in terms of timing most of

18:02

the time. But he didn't really

18:04

care about anything except

18:06

if the makeup on his hands matched

18:08

the makeup on his face.

18:11

And my life has never been

18:13

better in terms of

18:15

I left the job at home. It was

18:17

all fun. I never

18:20

dressed about it. It was easy and

18:22

the voice of us

18:24

and the writers really were the

18:26

star of the show. And Craig was

18:28

just a person who,

18:30

you know, read it. I

18:33

think Craig felt like an outsider

18:35

in the ecosystem of the Daily

18:37

Show? No. He didn't

18:37

care, though, but believe me. No. We

18:40

were a family, and he didn't care.

18:42

So the Craig Kilbourn era did

18:44

an amazing job. Certainly, from

18:46

the Comedy Central standpoint, we were thrilled. You know,

18:48

the show Show' of a little bit of a slow build, but

18:50

got people's attention. We got noticed. Craig started

18:52

to get us impressed. Some good, some bad,

18:54

but certainly people noticed him in the

18:57

show. And we were kind of, you know, sort

18:59

of motoring along, having a

19:01

good time with a bunch of great people, as

19:03

Madelyn said, And then he did

19:05

that interview. Bam. Bam.

19:07

Yeah. He did the interview.

19:09

And part of my

19:12

being a nap to the

19:14

network was I

19:16

kept saying over and over.

19:18

Don't let Craig do integrators alone.

19:20

And also, I don't want journalists in

19:22

the writer's room. Part of it was

19:24

I didn't know what Craig was gonna say.

19:26

And the other part was the show

19:28

was really smart and I didn't know if Craig was gonna

19:30

be able to do an interview that

19:33

lived up to that. And I really loved the

19:35

fact that people didn't know if he was

19:37

Ted Baxter, or William Heard or was

19:39

he in on it, and that really kind of led

19:41

to the mystique of it. So the

19:43

network was just tired of me

19:45

saying, stop telling us how we should be promoting

19:47

this. And finally, I was I

19:49

guess, I'm just gonna fucking lose this battle.

19:52

Fine. Let him go out with

19:54

this guy. To do an

19:56

interview alone. But he said what he said, it was awful and

19:58

it was unacceptable. He got

20:01

suspended. Liz ended up leaving

20:03

the Show'. Which was unfortunate. And

20:05

I certainly, you know, in

20:07

retrospect, particularly given

20:09

how I like to think I evolve, but

20:11

certainly how the world has evolved. You know, I

20:13

think back then go, wow.

20:15

What would I have done differently? What could we

20:17

have done differently? And, you know, was

20:19

there another way this story might have turned out?

20:21

You know, I'm not sure what the answer is. Yeah. You

20:23

know, I I don't know if the answer is either, but what

20:25

I do think and Madeline, I think it

20:28

goes to the familial nature

20:30

of who we were as a show.

20:32

Right? And so I think that

20:34

you being this incredible leader

20:36

in mother figure I don't think

20:38

really saw the layers and the pain, and I don't

20:40

think I felt like I could reveal them to anybody

20:43

because why could I write? We all

20:45

knew. Craig was contentious and wanted

20:47

me out for months before he said

20:49

anything. And I you know, I don't But I

20:51

think he thought if he said something in a

20:53

magazine, that might set me off. And

20:55

Show' be told, it did. It did. And the reason

20:57

I left was there's no way

20:59

that I could have in good conscience run

21:02

a staff professionally with the

21:04

feelings I had for Craig. I've had to go. I

21:06

mean, he didn't say anything that was very

21:08

deep. He said that I was hired to

21:10

blow him and that the women on the staff

21:12

were bitches. No. He said, how do you get along with

21:14

Liz Winn said? And he said Lizz loves

21:16

me. She would bump it up if, you know

21:18

-- If I want -- if I ask it if I

21:20

ask her too. Yeah.

21:21

And didn't he also

21:21

use the b word in that interview? Yeah.

21:24

I got the women on

21:24

the staff. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. In

21:26

twenty twenty two, you would never see it

21:29

again. He wasn't gonna go. I'm glad I did so

21:31

that I could move on and done hired me when

21:33

he left who, you know, whatever.

21:36

Before we to the John Stewart era. When

21:38

you look back and you think about your

21:40

daily show and your time at the daily show, how do

21:42

you think about it? I think

21:44

about it. As one

21:47

of the most incredibly

21:50

fun formative things

21:52

that's ever happened

21:54

to me. I often will say

21:56

to people, it's almost unfortunate

21:59

that I got to do my dream job as

22:01

my very first real job. Mhmm.

22:04

I

22:04

hear that. I kinda feel the same way.

22:07

Right. I have a follow-up which

22:09

is when when Liz when you

22:11

decided to leave Madeline, how did

22:13

you feel about

22:14

that? What conversations did you 1 told her she shouldn't

22:16

leave. And she wouldn't talk to me and then

22:18

get invited to her going away party. It

22:20

was really awful. I

22:23

felt very, very, very bad about it

22:25

because I had left for six weeks. And

22:27

I think I was kind of stopping

22:30

some kind of crazy vacuum from

22:32

happening when I left

22:34

for my six weeks of maternity leave,

22:36

thanks, Doug, I don't

22:39

even think that's legal.

22:42

This is this podcast at

22:44

the end

22:44

of the day is just going to berrybee for

22:47

life. It's an indictment of

22:49

everything that

22:50

comes on here. He's got some I didn't pay any Crawford

22:53

enough

22:53

money. Yeah. Yeah. He's got a different story.

22:55

Yeah. He paid or not. Really?

22:58

Nothing. Nothing. Perhaps the style. But

23:00

I was sort of in another

23:02

head space. I wasn't

23:04

sleeping. I had an infant.

23:06

I was in heaven. I had dug one

23:09

through hell in high water

23:11

to be a mom. I did a

23:13

failed in vitro. I had an

23:15

adoption full threw on me after I held

23:17

the baby -- Oh. -- and I

23:19

finally get the most beautiful,

23:22

perfect, amazing, infant,

23:24

and that's where my head was. I wasn't, like,

23:26

in the thing. And Liz kept saying, like, Craig's trying

23:28

to take over the show. He wants a moment for

23:30

us to be three And I just said,

23:32

I was Lizz, I don't know what you're fucking

23:35

talking about. Okay. Everything's

23:37

melting. It just

23:39

wasn't really in it. And I was

23:41

very hurt when

23:43

I was sort of glummed onto

23:46

management and the day of your

23:48

going away party. I

23:50

remember Hank and Rob

23:52

Fox came up to my

23:54

office and, like, hugged me

23:56

because I was crying. And I

23:58

was just really hurt because I felt like I

24:00

had hired you. I

24:02

had brought you there and

24:04

that I did not really deserve to

24:06

be included in the

24:08

us and them part of it and that that

24:10

just was really, really hurtful. But

24:12

we made up and we're good

24:14

now. Yeah. And you were certainly caught the you were

24:16

certainly caught the Because ultimately the

24:18

final decision was mine. And like I said,

24:20

as I look back on it, I don't necessarily

24:22

think I made the right one. And I

24:24

Hope I've apologized to Liz numerous times over

24:26

the

24:26

years. No. No. No. No. No. You totally have. But I

24:28

do wanna put a button on this, and that's to

24:30

say, I think what you said madeleine

24:33

is valid. And I

24:35

remember going to my shrink, and my

24:37

shrink said, if you need to

24:39

be silent, and this is maybe where I

24:41

miss it. I think I said, I

24:43

need to take time for

24:45

myself to be a wave and

24:47

get advice only from people who

24:49

are thinking about

24:50

me. Right? And that about how is the show

24:52

gonna go and what is gonna happen.

24:54

And that's what I needed

24:57

to do. And I have to say, in a

24:59

Show' I

25:00

think there

25:02

was 1 thing that made me feel the

25:05

worst. What's

25:06

that? And leaving a digging

25:08

mirror of myself. I

25:11

was

25:11

told and led to

25:14

believe that all

25:16

of you thought that I was planning something

25:19

nefarious that I was gonna write a book

25:21

or that I was gonna come out

25:23

and, like, do something really shitty and

25:26

that that there was ever a belief that I

25:28

would. Ever

25:30

done that, just That was a thing department.

25:32

I was like, I'm just gonna I'm gonna

25:34

back off. Yeah. I don't I certainly don't

25:37

I don't remember thinking that ever. You

25:39

know, for me, when I look back, this

25:41

single thing I could point to is, you know, I

25:43

put the show before the people, and it

25:45

just wasn't the right thing to do with

25:47

time. And there was another way out of Lizz. And,

25:49

you know, I didn't necessarily choose

25:51

the right path because I was focused

25:53

on the show. And 1 was like, oh my god, we worked

25:55

so hard. We got this show going.

25:57

You know, we can't let this fall apart,

25:59

and that was I sort of taped it back

26:00

together. And, you know, a lot of

26:03

ways, it was never the same. But also, I have a

26:05

question. Because of the

26:07

timing, was Craig negotiating his

26:09

out on top of it secretly at

26:11

that

26:11

point? Not

26:12

yet. Not yet. Because

26:13

I always wondered about that. That's Lizz the

26:16

basic cable thing. It wasn't

26:18

another year until that would

26:20

happen. Yeah. I think that's right.

26:21

But he But Craig also, Craig also

26:24

for the, you know, Craig sort of looked at the daily

26:26

shows a stepping stone the entire time he was there.

26:27

Yeah. He was

26:28

just passing through. Mhmm. He was passing

26:31

through. He was

26:31

think we've learned is that none of us need to go to

26:34

therapy. We just need to go on a

26:36

podcast. We can work

26:36

it off through Teams,issues, Wednesday.

26:41

I'd like to come hug you. I

26:43

know. This has

26:44

been very cathartic. This has to do.

26:46

So Liz Lizz, then Craig

26:49

leaves. Well, no. Okay. So let

26:51

me step in here. So

26:53

Craig told me that he was

26:55

leaving and that he was going

26:57

to CBS to

26:59

take over the late late show. And

27:01

at that time, we had just taken over

27:03

the fifty third street building. I was

27:05

building dream studio

27:09

and I'm on the set looking at my

27:11

new set and lights

27:13

that can go on behind the

27:14

thing, and I get a call. And

27:17

it's

27:17

Rob Burnett, who runs Worldwide Panson, is

27:19

the executive producer night

27:21

night with David Letterman where I

27:23

well, no. Late show with David Letterman. I worked

27:25

on late night with David

27:27

Letterman. For six years, I consider it my

27:30

graduate school, eighty six to ninety two. I was the human

27:32

and interest booker and

27:34

producer and also did all the cooking

27:36

segments just to keep Matt

27:38

in the kitchen, like, But

27:40

I guess this call, and it's Rob

27:42

Burnett. Because can you come over here and talk to me and

27:44

Dave? And I go Show'? And he goes yes. I

27:46

go, okay. And

27:48

I kind of leave the set walk

27:50

through and I go over to the Ed

27:52

Sullivan Theater. And I'm in this meeting

27:54

with Dave, and Dave is wearing the

27:57

base small cap and he's got unlit cigar

27:59

and he goes, you know, we're also

28:01

proud of you. You left

28:03

here and you've done something

28:06

new. You've created a new way

28:08

to do comedy

28:10

over there at your little daily show and

28:12

it couldn't be just more tickled

28:15

for your success. That was the word that he

28:17

used. But we're gonna be doing

28:19

a new thing with the

28:21

late late show. And we wanna give it

28:23

to you. So we have a guy,

28:25

but it's not about the guy. We

28:27

wanna give it to you and it's

28:29

your time and you can create

28:31

whatever. And if this guy doesn't work out, we'll

28:33

get you a new person. You know, you've

28:35

proven that you're a real

28:37

producer and we want you to come and do

28:39

this late relationship for me and I

28:40

go, well, who's your guy? And I know it's great.

28:42

And they go, well, we can't tell you. Go,

28:44

well, it's really important because if you

28:47

tell me, that that guy is John Stewart.

28:49

I will be on a plane to California

28:51

because it was gonna be in LA.

28:53

But if you tell me that it's Craig

28:55

Kilborn? I will tell you you've made I'm sorry, Craig. But

28:57

I will tell you you've made a terrible

29:00

mistake and that the guy can't

29:02

carry an hour. Dave took

29:04

the sick the guard out of his mouth and

29:06

he goes, Rob, is it too late to get

29:08

out of this thing? So now

29:10

here I am. I finally, I have my son.

29:13

I'm buying a co op on the

29:15

upper west side. My parents who live in Chelsea are

29:17

miserable than I'm moving to the upper west side.

29:19

And suddenly, here's

29:21

this opportunity in

29:23

Los Angeles, but it means

29:25

taking my baby away

29:27

from my dad grandfather

29:29

of the year and my grandfather was really

29:31

big in my and I'm

29:33

all confused. So I call

29:35

my good friend, John

29:38

Stewart, and I go, what do I

29:40

do? And he goes, okay, we got this.

29:42

Let's break it down. Are

29:44

you proud of what the daily show

29:47

is? Do you like the people that you work with?

29:49

And are you excited to come to work

29:51

every morning? And

29:53

I said, yes. I feel like

29:56

we have found a new

29:58

way to actually

30:00

deliver comedy and

30:02

I couldn't be more proud of it.

30:04

I love everybody I

30:06

work with. They're like a giant

30:08

family to me. And I am

30:11

excited to go in every

30:13

morning and see what

30:15

hand the world has dealt us

30:17

and how we're gonna play

30:18

it. And he told me that in the

30:21

course of that conversation, he

30:24

decided that he wanted to host the Daily

30:26

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31:54

When John

31:58

came on, everything that you've talked about

32:00

in terms of what Craig was, like, it seems to me,

32:02

like, John Stewart was the opposite of that. Like,

32:04

extremely Winstead, wanted

32:06

to really set the tone for

32:08

everything, and that's obviously a huge sea change

32:10

for

32:10

you. Yeah.

32:11

Yeah. And it was interesting

32:14

because for me, it was my world's

32:16

gliding.

32:16

I mean, I was John's first producer.

32:19

On the John Stewart show on

32:22

MTV. And he and I had

32:24

an incredible like,

32:26

we fell in comedic love during

32:28

our first meeting in Doug, your it

32:30

was I think it was Aileen's office, actually. Oh,

32:32

yeah. It was Aileen's office when

32:34

they brought John up from the basement,

32:36

and we just started going back

32:38

and forth, anyone on an hour and a half. And

32:40

we really, like, comedically and

32:42

just myself, I'm a chameleon. I could produce letterman.

32:44

I could produce John. I

32:47

get inside the head of whoever

32:49

the talent is. It will later be Steve

32:51

Harvey. That was a interesting one. But

32:54

I would you know,

32:56

what they wanted and I could kind of,

32:58

like, just take that and run with

33:01

it. So I was very excited because it

33:03

was

33:03

Lizz, look at this, my worlds are

33:05

colliding, and then John came in and met with

33:07

the writers.

33:08

And it was JR Havelin,

33:11

who, just in the middle of this writers

33:14

meeting,

33:14

said, are you gonna wear

33:17

the leather jacket?

33:19

And John snapped

33:21

and left the meeting and there

33:23

was never another writer's meaning

33:25

again. In a broad way,

33:28

the show went from a

33:31

producer and writer's room point

33:33

of view. To the host point of

33:35

view. Single vision. Yeah. And so the

33:37

dynamic completely changed. And Natalie,

33:39

you know, is, you know, was

33:41

who was really you know,

33:44

along with you, Liz, you know, the point

33:46

of view of the show prior to

33:48

John is now just serving in a

33:50

very strict

33:50

producers, type role, facilities. Although,

33:53

no, it was still very

33:55

collaborative, and I'll tell you when it

33:57

changed. It was rocky for a

33:59

little bit. And it was such an

34:01

unhappy place because

34:03

the writers just felt like they'd been

34:06

completely, you know, shut down and they'd have the keys

34:08

to the kingdom and suddenly were,

34:10

like, banished and it

34:12

wasn't nearly

34:14

as much fun. The

34:16

stakes got higher, but the

34:18

show kept getting better. But I think Doug

34:20

really were the so let's call it

34:22

Dayless Show' two point o emerged. Was

34:25

when we did the greatest millennium. And

34:27

it was our year end

34:30

special in nineteen

34:32

ninety nine. And we it was me and

34:34

John and Ben. And I don't

34:36

think any of the writers were there, but

34:38

Stewart Bailey and

34:40

we would stay after and work

34:42

on it. And then we,

34:44

you know, sort of assign different writers to

34:46

different things, but we were drinking vodka

34:49

and smoking pot and we were

34:52

brainstorming. My favorite thing we ever

34:54

did and I feel like it really would

34:56

Lizz sort of be the harbinger for

34:58

what was to come was we did this

35:00

panel discussion on crack where

35:02

we had way too many panelists and

35:05

we were discussing where UFO And Stewart Bailey went

35:07

out. We got, like, the singing

35:09

psychic. We got

35:12

all the guy Jody Pandarvis that had a UFO welcome center

35:14

in his house. I Lizz, what's her name,

35:16

Laura? Not Laura

35:17

Ingram, the other one that that that 1

35:19

know Liz, Lizz

35:22

doctor Laura? No. No. No. The pundits that

35:24

just is always screaming and

35:26

totally, like, upside she

35:28

doesn't even believe what she's

35:29

saying, but she's can't

35:32

remember her name, but she was there ever. Are you literally

35:33

saying you know that one person who

35:36

does that thing? Yes. He

35:38

was the first.

35:39

Everybody on the fox network? And

35:41

culture. Ron Fox News. And culture.

35:43

Oh, and culture. And

35:46

we did John, like, a huge

35:48

Ted, couple. None of it

35:50

was live. But it sounded like it was,

35:53

so we wrote backwards to it. For me,

35:55

it was just like my proudest

35:58

achievement ever. And after that, we nailed it, and we knew how to

36:00

really have fun with it.

36:02

And we realized the bigger John

36:04

went in the

36:06

Ted Cabbell anchory

36:08

thing, the more, like,

36:11

ridiculously silly. And that's because

36:13

of that, we were ready for

36:15

the two thousand election. And the two thousand

36:17

election was unbelievable. That's where

36:20

the modern point

36:22

o history of The Daily Show That's where it starts, but it really started

36:24

in nineteen ninety nine. Right. That was

36:26

the pregame. Because in terms of the creative

36:29

process and being really playful,

36:32

it became fun again. So then we prepare for the two thousand

36:34

election. And it's indecision

36:36

two thousand. We're doing this big

36:39

two hour live special, and we had to

36:42

write jokes for every

36:44

outcome of every

36:46

senate seat. Show' have, like, stacks

36:48

of jokes for every state that we wouldn't know if we were gonna

36:50

need. Take up and shut it off.

36:54

Had them all organized and in the commercial breaks, we'd have to

36:56

scramble and get the right jokes and run them

36:58

up to John and the show's going

37:00

on and it's great. And Comedy Central's

37:03

having this big party for us and all

37:05

my friends and my brother are, like, waiting

37:07

for me. It's party and

37:10

shows going on Lizz in the middle of

37:12

our show, Florida

37:14

flipped. But it was

37:16

a a fiasco, and

37:18

we were the only ones that

37:21

could embrace the fiasco, become the fiasco, play with

37:23

the fiasco, and it was in that

37:25

thirty four days

37:28

that The new daily

37:30

show was born. And I

37:32

have to say that it was really

37:35

fun. To be on a

37:37

ride where In thirty four days, the show became

37:39

a massive hit. And John was

37:42

on the cover of Rolling

37:44

Stone and there were

37:46

CNN crews in our building

37:48

and Well, that brought the dream to

37:50

fruition where there was something going

37:52

on in America. And you had to

37:54

turn to the daily show every night, you get back to me to

37:55

take on it. Yep. As an observer of

37:58

all of this outside of it, and

38:00

now a TV critic,

38:02

to me, the turning point in that year was in a very

38:04

strange way, you were not obviously part of

38:06

the mainstream media, but you also were. I mean, you

38:08

had superrell getting invited to be on

38:10

John McCain's

38:12

but -- Yes. -- and asked him an actually real question. They had no idea what

38:14

to do with until he realized that Steve was kind

38:16

of joking. But

38:17

yeah. I mean, I think to

38:19

me, just a huge turning point in both

38:21

comedy and journalism. Yes. Yes. We

38:23

went legit. And that's when

38:26

college students started getting their news from us. I

38:28

was like, no. Don't do that.

38:30

Peace in New York

38:33

Times. Lizz, Visa Washington Post, you

38:35

don't wanna get your news first. That's

38:37

a lot of responsibility. To close out here, we got

38:39

a little question for you. We're talking about other TV shows.

38:41

Other than the basic cable shows you

38:43

have worked on, like the Daily Show or the

38:45

John Stewart Show',

38:48

Lizz your favorite basic cable show? It really is the

38:50

Guevara par.

38:51

We'll accept that. That makes sense.

38:53

Basic cable show,

38:56

favorite

38:58

What's your guilty pleasure, please? Come Reveal to America. It just have

39:00

to be on now? No. It could be on anytime. No.

39:02

It could be on now. It could be on of of all

39:04

time. Oh, mystery science theater.

39:07

Oh, nice to go. I would

39:10

go to Colbert also. But mister

39:12

Science Theatre and that is just being

39:15

a Minnesota having like, my god. It's made

39:17

it to comedy channel

39:20

was very

39:22

great. Rick and Morty is

39:24

pretty good too. I don't know why I feel the

39:26

urge to reveal every mistake I

39:28

ever made in my past

39:30

career. So so give it

39:32

all that's

39:32

transpired between us. Listen, it's amazing. We're still

39:35

friends. We're so friend. I

39:36

think it's a testament to

39:40

me. Okay. Me too. You're a very

39:42

big person. Absolutely. She's a very big person.

39:44

Yes. Much bigger

39:47

than myself. Do

39:48

either of you guys speak to John, Stewart, or anybody from the show? you keep in

39:50

touch with anybody? I came in touch with a

39:52

lot of

39:53

people. Yeah. Look at me too. Oh,

39:55

now with John.

39:57

Okay. When the network decided to, for

39:59

some odd reason, not do a twenty

40:01

fifth anniversary special, I called up

40:04

Madeline, and I was, like, dude, Why don't you and

40:06

I host some old guard and talk about

40:08

the old days? Because nobody ever hears about the

40:10

old

40:10

days, and it was a riot. I wanna

40:12

thank you both personally for

40:15

you know, revisiting this stuff, and I know a lot

40:17

of it can be painful. And but for being

40:19

so honest and transparent in talking about it,

40:21

I I personally really appreciate it, and I think

40:23

our listeners will too. Yeah.

40:24

Thanks for having us. Hopefully, you know how I

40:26

feel about you. I I look back on those

40:28

days that we spent together as

40:32

literally some of the best times of certainly my professional career and

40:34

my life. It was both yeah. It was

40:36

great fun. The best. And, you know, certainly, we

40:38

had our we had our ups and downs and

40:41

as Jen said, we really appreciate you both being

40:43

here today. I love you both, and I

40:45

hope to see you both soon. Bye

40:47

you guys. Thank you.

40:49

Well, Doug, that

40:51

was a

40:53

a hell of a conversation we just

40:55

had to the extent that

40:56

I the extent that I could get a word in.

40:59

Conversation. Yeah.

41:00

I felt bad for you, and that was, like, being

41:02

the fourth wheel at a high school reunion.

41:04

But it was a very informative high

41:06

school reunion. And as they said, I

41:08

think hopefully, a cathartic one. It just listening to both of

41:10

them talk and and

41:11

certainly, especially when Liz got a little bit emotional,

41:13

it just really drove home

41:15

for me, like, work

41:18

is especially when you're

41:19

working on a project that is obviously so

41:21

personal to both of them that they felt

41:23

so invested in. Lizz, you

41:25

never shake that emotional attachment even if

41:28

it's been years since you worked on whatever the

41:30

job was. And I think it's clear that that's the

41:32

case for both of them. For sure. And look,

41:34

I would count myself in

41:36

that. I remember so

41:38

much about the show, but I remember more about

41:40

the people. And, you know, what we shared, making the

41:42

show, what we shared, you know, hanging out

41:44

around the show and and the

41:46

relationships that were

41:48

built. And remained

41:50

strong and been repaired over the years, more

41:52

really important

41:53

things. Mhmm. And we talked about this

41:55

a little bit,

41:57

but overstate sort of the importance of

42:00

what Liz Madeline created by creating The

42:02

Daily Show. As I kind of said a

42:04

little bit, it certainly changed the way

42:06

I think a lot of late night comedy is

42:08

presented and comedy in general, but

42:10

the overlap between politics and

42:12

comedy. And, I mean, I think the way

42:14

that even a lot of the

42:16

cable news shows do their actual news presentation.

42:18

I think a lot of it was influenced now

42:20

by The Daily Show. I mean, it kind of

42:23

Obviously, it's not a hard news show. That's not what your

42:25

main resource for news should be. I know for

42:28

me personally, certainly during the the George

42:30

W. Bush years, I watched every

42:32

single night. And sometimes I was getting my information from it. Sometimes I wasn't.

42:34

But at at at the very least, it was helping

42:36

me process what was going on and

42:38

putting AAA

42:40

light spin on it on days when I really

42:42

need a light

42:42

spin. And that that kind of became a really big responsibility as you

42:44

heard them talk about a little bit.

42:47

So not only do they wanna be funny every night,

42:50

but they wanted to be

42:52

accurate, they wanted to be

42:54

credible, and they were talking about

42:56

important things. And it's a high

42:58

bar to do that every night. I promise you. It's

43:00

not easy. You know, as you know, we heard

43:02

madeleine talk about visiting another

43:04

newsroom and they're all sitting around

43:06

having a great time. But

43:08

writing jokes and trying to

43:10

make anything funny, particularly stuff

43:12

that's not funny funny is really

43:14

hard

43:14

work. It is very hard work, and and it actually reminded me a bit

43:16

of a conversation we had with Lisa

43:18

Napoli about CNN. I mean, they're kind

43:20

of the Daily Show in a way, especially

43:24

1 Stewart got involved, it was functioning like a newsroom. you had

43:27

hard deadlines and you have to keep

43:29

on top of what's going

43:31

on and change your story and

43:33

change your approach if the news dictates it. The comedy part is different, but that sort

43:36

of essential gathering of information

43:38

aspect is no different

43:40

than what regular

43:42

news organization does. That's exactly right. Yeah. Like

43:44

I said, it was it was a newsroom that also had

43:46

to produce jokes as well as the news. So it

43:48

was hard work. They had a lot of fun doing

43:51

it. And, you know, going back to what you

43:53

said originally, just that they found a

43:56

different way into late night was a

43:58

great place to start. We were always

44:00

conscious of not wanting

44:02

to do a b

44:04

level cut rate

44:06

version of Johnny Carson

44:08

or Jay Leno, I can't remember who was still on at

44:10

that point or letterman or our

44:12

senior who was on at that time. You know, we didn't

44:14

wanna do that type of late night show. We we needed to find a

44:16

different way in. Bill

44:18

Marr, of course, had done

44:20

politically incorrect previously. That was a

44:22

panel Show'. And

44:24

so that was something different. And we didn't want to repeat that. So

44:26

we had to find yet another way

44:28

in. And I think made Ellen and

44:30

Liz did an incredible job building that

44:33

house. Yeah. And that another thing that I was thinking about is what

44:35

an incubator Lizz show has been. I mean,

44:38

certainly, like, the great comedy incubator

44:40

in this country is still Saturday

44:42

Night Live. And we've talked about how the state was an

44:44

incubator for a lot of careers. But the Daily

44:46

Show, to me, is right up there doing that same

44:48

kind of thing.

44:50

I mean, Obviously, John Stewart was known, but this made him a

44:52

figure on a different level. It

44:54

introduced us to Steve Carell and introduced us to

44:56

Stephen Colbert and

44:58

Samantha 1. And

45:00

Larry Wellmore being more of a presence, you

45:02

know, so many people. John Oliver, I

45:04

mean John was kind of

45:05

like a mini Lauren Michaels in that

45:07

regard. You know, many of those people he found John

45:09

Oliver and Carell these were all John

45:11

and the producers sourcing all

45:14

these great talented, amazingly talented, comedic

45:16

folks. You know, the one fun fact and

45:18

they talked about Colbert a little bit in the hiring

45:20

Colbert. You know, Colbert was there before

45:22

John Stewart. Kaleer was a

45:24

correspondent on the Craig Kilburn show. So

45:26

he was actually there the day John Stewart

45:28

got there. John inherited Steven, but

45:30

there's no question along with

45:32

Stephen, he concocted this

45:34

great character and and great persona that

45:36

Stephen had amazing success

45:37

with. Yeah. You know, I

45:39

was also thinking Is it streamable? Like, the old daily show episodes?

45:41

Are they streamable? I don't know the answer to that.

45:43

I don't know the answer to that either. That's a good question. I

45:46

remember when

45:48

I remember when we first started putting things online at Comedy Central insisting

45:51

that we have the entire history

45:53

of The Daily Show up

45:54

there. So you could go find any day at any

45:56

time. And

45:58

I don't know what the status of that is at the moment. There's

46:00

a lot of them. You know, we're now twenty

46:02

what is it?

46:03

Twenty, twenty five

46:06

years. Can't remember what the last name was. I think, yeah, it didn't lizz or madeleine

46:08

say that. Twenty five years,

46:10

four nights a week, forty eight

46:13

weeks a year. It's a

46:15

lot of shows. So twenty five years later, the Daily Show is

46:17

still Show'. And it basically even

46:20

though it's now on its third hosts

46:22

and has

46:24

had several in carnations. It's still the house

46:26

that Liz and Madeleine

46:28

Smithburg built. You know, the bones are still

46:30

there. It's still

46:32

headlines, guests,

46:34

and then maybe take peace or something else in that third segment. And

46:36

that's where it all started, and it's it's

46:38

held up. Absolutely. It has held up.

46:41

Yeah. For sure. Should be very proud

46:43

of what they did. Yeah. It's become a great

46:46

comedy tradition. I think Stans now shoulder

46:48

to shoulder with all the other

46:50

broadcast late night shows. Hasn't won 1 a

46:52

long time, but certainly has won its share of

46:54

Emmys. And I think we could look forward

46:56

to watching the Daily Show for a long time, and we're

46:58

glad Matt and Liz came by to talk to us about

47:00

it. Absolutely. And we hope you'll

47:02

come join us next time on

47:04

basic. Basic is a

47:06

pantheon media production in partnership

47:08

with Sirius Exen, hosted by Jen Cheney and Doug

47:10

Herzog produced by Christian Swain and

47:12

Peter Ferryoli. Lilly Erlich is

47:14

our assistant

47:16

producer. Mixed, mastered, and music by Jerry Danielson. Edit

47:18

it by Zach Schwissner. You

47:20

can find basic on Apple Podcasts, the

47:23

SiriusXM app, Pandora, stitcher

47:26

or wherever you like to listen. If you like the show, please rate,

47:28

review, and share Show' other people can find

47:31

us. Don't forget to follow the show,

47:33

so you never miss an episode.

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