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0:47

Today on Basic, John Flattery

0:49

from Mad Men.

0:52

If I'm not mistaken, you read

0:54

for the role of Don Draper before you read for Roger, right?

0:57

I did, only because there wasn't much of Roger

0:59

in the pilot script. I had to call my

1:01

agent back and say, really, are you sure? Because

1:03

I looked older than the

1:05

part and I wasn't getting parts

1:08

that age at that point. So I did

1:10

my homework and I went in the red and did a couple of

1:12

passes at it. And that's when he told me, well,

1:14

here's the thing, we already have this guy. Then he claims

1:16

that I was in a bad mood the whole time when

1:19

we shot the pilot because he had

1:21

lied to me. Which I don't think that was

1:23

true. That was true. I think we shot the pilot

1:25

in New York and I think I was just

1:28

maybe skeptical. You had your bets a little

1:30

bit emotionally anyway, you kind of protect

1:32

yourself. Well, you know, we'll see. And again,

1:35

the part wasn't that much

1:37

in evidence in the pilot. So I kind of

1:39

felt like I had one foot in and one foot out.

1:44

Hello everyone and welcome to Basic, the official podcast

1:46

of the unofficial history of cable television. I'm Doug

1:48

Herzog, a former TV executive, and I'm just

1:51

back from a three Martini lunch.

1:52

And I'm Jen Cheney TV critic at Vulture

1:54

in New York Magazine. And I drink because

1:56

it's what men do. I'm pretty excited

1:59

today, Jen, our gi- today was a star of one of Basic

2:01

Cable's most celebrated shows and

2:03

I think a personal favorite of both you and

2:05

myself.

2:06

Yes, we are talking about Mad Men and

2:08

we are welcoming John Slattery who played

2:10

Roger Sterling, a senior partner at the various

2:13

iterations of the fictional ad agency on

2:15

Mad Men. He's played many roles on

2:17

TV and film but Roger Sterling is the

2:19

one that he's best known for. Roger

2:21

was a quick-witted ladies man and a heavy drinker

2:24

who also got to deliver some of the the sharpest lines

2:26

in Mad Men history. The show

2:27

was the first basic cable show to win an Emmy

2:29

for Best Drama, something that had been the domain

2:31

of primarily network shows or HBO

2:34

shows. Over seven seasons it went on to

2:36

win 16 Emmys and five

2:38

Golden Globes.

2:39

And perhaps more surprisingly, it came from the AMC

2:41

network, who at that time was considered kind

2:44

of a B-level cable network that was most

2:46

known for airing old movies. But Mad

2:48

Men captured a very specific era in American

2:50

history with extraordinary style and

2:52

some of the best writing and performances ever on

2:54

television.

2:55

I think that's right. I think it's also safe to

2:57

say that it's quality and success took everyone

2:59

by surprise. We're going to get right to our conversation

3:02

with John, but stay right after as Jen and I will

3:04

be at the bar to recap our conversation over

3:06

a couple of dirty martinis.

3:14

We are so excited to welcome John Slattery

3:16

to the Basic Podcast. Doug and I

3:18

are huge Mad Men fans, so this is very exciting.

3:21

But before we start talking about Mad Men, And we have to ask

3:23

you the question we ask everyone who comes

3:25

on the podcast, which is,

3:28

do you remember when you first got or saw

3:30

basic cable television?

3:32

You know, I've been thinking about that. And I think

3:34

we got basic cable in

3:37

like 85 where I was living,

3:39

except at that point I had

3:41

left home, finished college, was on

3:44

the road with a touring group and

3:47

then moved to Brooklyn where

3:49

I don't think I had a TV. So

3:52

I remember people talking about getting basic

3:54

cable and I remember

3:56

my brother and and him sort

3:58

of.

5:56

you

6:00

read for Roger, right? I did. I

6:02

only because there wasn't much of Roger in the

6:05

pilot script.

6:07

I was doing a play, the David

6:09

Lindsay Abare play called Rabbit Hole with Cynthia

6:12

Nixon. And I think Matt

6:14

had come to see that. Okay. And

6:17

asked me to read for the part of Don. Yeah. And I had

6:19

to call my agent back and say, really? Are you sure? Because

6:22

I looked older than the part

6:24

and I wasn't getting parts that

6:27

age at that point. And so I did

6:29

call back to check and they said, no, that's what they said.

6:31

So I did my homework and I went into red and

6:33

did a couple of passes at it. And that's when he

6:35

told me, well, here's the thing, we already have

6:37

this guy. And then

6:39

he claims that I was in a bad mood the whole

6:42

time when we shot the pilot because he

6:44

had lied to me,

6:45

which I don't think it, I don't think that was

6:48

true. I think we shot the pilot in New York.

6:50

And I think I was just maybe

6:52

skeptical. I remember giving somebody

6:54

a ride home, an actor Darren

6:56

Petty, who was in the show for

6:58

years, we were both like, well, AMC

7:00

hadn't done

7:02

much original programming, they had

7:04

a little bit, but we just kind of, you know,

7:07

you had your bets a little bit emotionally anyway,

7:09

you kind of

7:10

protect yourself. Well, you know, we'll see. And

7:12

again, the part wasn't that

7:14

much in evidence in the pilot. So

7:17

I kind of felt like I had one foot in and one

7:19

foot out. Did Matthew tell you that he had

7:22

plans for Roger to be a bigger character or did you

7:24

just not know at that point? No, he told me and I

7:26

was a huge Sopranos fan and I had known that

7:28

a little bit socially

7:30

because we had mutual friends from that show

7:32

from Sopranos. And

7:34

he told me that I promise you this will be a great part,

7:36

but I'd heard that before and

7:39

you hear that all the time. The harder

7:41

someone tries to sell you, usually the

7:43

less likely it's going to be

7:45

a good part. And it wasn't a super hard

7:47

sell. He was just like, I promise you this will be a great part.

7:50

And you could see how good the script was. But

7:52

I think he said the same thing to January Jones, which

7:55

she played Betty in the last

7:57

scene. You don't even know he's married.

8:00

until he comes home and she

8:02

wakes up. So I guess

8:04

she took it on faith as well and it

8:07

turned out pretty well for her as well. And the AMC

8:09

of it all, they really were, they weren't on the

8:11

map at all in those days in terms of original

8:13

programming. You said they had tried their hand here and there, but

8:16

they were mostly known, I think, for running

8:18

old movies, right? They were, but they

8:21

had a show, I forget the

8:23

name of it, they had a show about... There's something

8:25

that clicked a little bit. Like a radio station, a

8:27

period show. Oh, right. Right about the 40s radio.

8:30

Right, right. Yeah. Right.

8:33

I remember that. But yeah, they were, they were, you know, we, no

8:36

one, you couldn't,

8:38

people would say A and E and, you know, nobody

8:41

knew how to find them or, or

8:43

what it was all about. So I think

8:46

everybody was skeptical.

8:48

But you could, but, but there was no skepticism about how

8:50

good that script was. And then how good

8:52

the subsequent scripts were, which was to me

8:55

even more surprising because it

8:57

was clear that he was good on

9:00

his word, Matt, that is, and

9:02

the parts were terrific.

9:04

And we were going to do these table reads. Did

9:07

it get a quick pickup, like, between the pilot

9:09

and getting started? Was there a- I don't think so. I

9:11

think it took a minute, and then Matt had

9:13

to finish his Sopranos

9:17

obligation, which, so it was like a year

9:19

until we started shooting it again. Why? It might've

9:21

gotten picked up for a while, so that we, you know,

9:24

I mean, so that we had a while knowing

9:26

show was going to go. But again,

9:29

I'm fuzzy on it. It's been

9:31

a while. No, I just, I asked that because

9:33

knowing cable television economics, like

9:35

I did, it's big bite

9:37

to do a show like this for any cable network. And

9:40

I'm sure they, as good as that pilot was,

9:42

I'm sure they really thought long and hard before they made

9:44

the commitment because it was gonna be a lot more money than they

9:46

had ever

9:47

spent before, I promise you that. Yeah.

9:49

So a year is interesting. As

9:52

much as lavish as it looked, It was,

9:55

I don't think the budgets were very big and that we were seven

9:57

day episode, which

9:58

is amazing when you think. You know how

10:00

long it takes some like HBO would shoot

10:04

Twice that right and wouldn't

10:06

blink We were pretty

10:08

tight but anyway the scripts got better and

10:10

better and I remember just Commenting

10:12

on like this isn't usually the way this

10:14

goes usually that takes a really long time

10:16

to write the pilot script and it's fussed over and considered

10:19

and and Pated

10:21

a lot of attention to and then the show gets a pickup

10:24

and then you're off and running and you've got a crank

10:26

out show every 10 days and

10:28

the quality can go down,

10:30

you know, to take a dip. But

10:32

that's not what happened obviously. I mean, that's one

10:34

of the great things, many great things about Mad Men

10:37

to me is that it felt like everything was considered.

10:40

You know, nothing was in there by accident in terms

10:42

of the writing or anything else. But

10:44

I'm curious, so in season one, was there a point where you

10:46

were like,

10:47

okay, this Roger Sterling

10:49

guy is a great character? Like there was a moment

10:51

when you really hooked into him? It was right away.

10:54

It was like, I think we were walking into, Elizabeth

10:56

Moss and I were walking into a table read.

10:58

And I was like, is it me? Are these scripts getting better

11:01

each week? And she agreed and we were,

11:03

you know, it was clear right away that

11:06

the whole world had been

11:08

considered that he'd been thinking about this for a

11:10

long time.

11:11

And which he

11:14

says, he subsequently said,

11:16

he had the whole thing mapped out.

11:19

I mean, not where the whole thing went, but

11:22

the, you know, a vision of this world. Yeah.

11:25

Yeah, it was really, I mean, I've been just literally

11:27

coincidentally rewatching with my wife and just, it's amazing

11:30

how it just holds, every part of it

11:32

holds up, just every scene, every

11:34

character, every costume, every set. And

11:37

it just all feels like it's been there forever.

11:40

How's, it felt also as a viewer that

11:42

it took off really quickly in terms of its

11:45

popularity and acceptance and critical acclaim.

11:48

Is that how you remember it? And how did that, you

11:50

know, how did that feel on the set? And how did that impact you guys?

11:52

I remember toiling

11:55

away in obscurity for a little while.

11:57

I think we were there. we were on the, we were,

11:59

we were.

12:00

at LA Center Studios downtown.

12:02

So we weren't

12:03

at one of the big studios in

12:05

Hollywood or in, you know, the Valley.

12:08

It got uniformly good reviews.

12:10

I remember there was a poster with all the quotes, and it

12:12

was just basically a full-sized poster

12:14

with just newspapers all

12:17

over the place and quotes from everywhere.

12:19

But there was a period where we were just

12:21

kind of working away and then came

12:23

on the air. I'm sure Jon Hamm

12:26

has a different recounting of it because

12:28

his life changed pretty quickly.

12:31

I think everybody's did, and there was a lot of

12:33

attention and publicity, and then, but

12:36

I don't really remember,

12:38

I think it took a little beat, and

12:40

then also, I think, and I haven't

12:42

talked about this in a long time, but I remember someone

12:45

either bringing it up or acknowledging that being able

12:47

to record shows came into being

12:49

at this point in time. So you could go back and get

12:51

the show, or you could T-vo the whole

12:53

thing or whatever, you DVR the whole thing. That's

12:56

right. So that if it wasn't like if someone

12:58

told you about a show and you're like, well, I guess I missed that

13:00

boat, you couldn't, you know, you could go

13:02

back and see the beginning of this. And

13:05

that made a big difference.

13:06

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14:31

This was also when it started to become more apparent

14:34

that whatever your overnight ratings were, which were always

14:36

like sort of the gospel of figuring

14:38

out

14:39

whether a show was successful, we're not capturing

14:42

how much impact a show was having. Because

14:44

Mad Men was having a huge cultural impact, even if like

14:46

you said, the

14:48

overnight ratings might not show that, but people were

14:50

watching it on their own time. And

14:52

I remember I worked at the Washington Post at the time

14:54

and I actually wrote about television, but literally

14:57

everyone in the newsroom when

14:59

Mad Men was popular wanted to write about Mad

15:01

Men.

15:02

It was like everybody wanted

15:04

to do recaps. I'm like, some of you need to be covering the White House.

15:06

This is my department. Calm down. But

15:09

it spoke to how much people love the show.

15:12

And I wanted to ask you about a

15:14

few scenes, really memorable scenes,

15:16

as sort of a window into the process, starting

15:19

with one in season one when

15:22

Roger and Don go out and

15:23

Roger just eats a few too many oysters and has a few

15:25

too many martinis and throws

15:27

up on the members of Nixon's campaign.

15:31

Mad Men would do these sort of like,

15:33

kind of, for lack of a better word, gross out moments

15:35

every once in a while, like the lawnmower, Don

15:38

throws up at your, is it your mom's memorial

15:40

service I think? Yeah. A

15:42

memorial service.

15:43

My mom's funeral. Yeah. Always

15:45

a good place to- What a prince. Yeah.

15:48

So what do you remember about shooting that sequence

15:51

when you had to

15:52

basically upchuck on these poor men. I

15:55

remember we shot the scene,

15:58

the oyster eating scene.

20:00

What are they called? Honey rose? I

20:02

think.

20:03

Good pull. I think they're called honey rose. You guys had

20:05

a big budget for that stuff. Fistfuls. I mean,

20:07

like they were disgusting. And they I mean, they you know, find

20:09

there they serve the purpose. They're

20:12

not there's no nicotine.

20:14

Right.

20:15

I was gonna say the secondhand smoke problem would have been awful there.

20:18

I had quit

20:18

smoking because I used to smoke. Yeah,

20:20

it's pretty it's pretty gross.

20:22

Oh, you used to smoke and you quit. I quit.

20:24

Oh, wow. So this must have been hard. I had quit,

20:26

I had gotten hypnotized. For

20:29

some reason, it didn't make me

20:31

go back to smoking.

20:32

I think it created a few smokers. I

20:36

think some of those guys didn't smoke and then did

20:39

afterwards for a while.

20:40

Yeah, because I mean, I think obviously the addiction is

20:42

to the nicotine, but there's also something when you get used

20:44

to just having something in your hand that

20:47

you

20:47

feel like you're naked if you don't have something in your

20:49

hand. It is a great prop too. I mean, it's just,

20:51

you know,

20:52

there was a rule if you can't smoke, You can't smoke

20:55

if you don't know how. And people would come in

20:57

and there'd be restaurants full of background people

20:59

or guests, day players, whatever. And

21:02

it would be clear right away whether somebody

21:04

was a smoker or not. And it's

21:07

a great prop unless you don't

21:09

know how to use one, unless you don't smoke.

21:12

And then it's very distracting

21:13

because you spotted a mile

21:16

away. Oh, that's interesting. Right. I

21:18

wanna ask you about another scene which you

21:20

are in, but I believe you also directed this

21:23

episode as well, Signal 30. The

21:25

scene I wanted to ask you about in particular is one of my favorites in

21:27

the whole show, which is when Pete

21:30

gets into the fight with Lane and

21:33

you and Don are watching.

21:36

I imagine that required some blocking and just

21:38

some figuring out, you know, just positioning and stuff

21:40

like that. Was that a particularly challenging

21:42

scene to direct? Or like you said, did it

21:44

just kind of direct itself because it was just all the pieces

21:47

were already there?

21:47

Yeah, I mean the the shot

21:49

listing of it was and trying to figure

21:51

out how to shoot it

21:53

was challenging but trying to think, I remember

21:55

one thing with Jared Harris had hurt his

21:58

neck. I forget, I don't know how he did it.

22:00

But he had hurt his neck. He had a disc

22:02

issue. And he was shooting a scene

22:06

for Lincoln,

22:08

the Spielberg movie, and he was

22:10

supposed to be General Grant, I think. And

22:12

he was arriving on this on his horse.

22:15

And he had to

22:17

tell Steven Spielberg that he couldn't ride.

22:21

And Spielberg was like, I'm sorry, because there

22:23

was this huge set piece. And he said, I've

22:25

hurt my neck.

22:26

I can't ride a horse. And if

22:29

he couldn't ride a horse,

22:30

it was going to be tricky to put him

22:33

in a boxing match. So

22:35

we choreographed it in that conference room

22:38

and then stunt coordinators

22:40

and all that, making sure that nobody hit each other. But

22:43

it was touch and go as to whether Jared was going to

22:45

be able to actually, he was more of a

22:47

sort of bare knuckles,

22:50

his style was very upright. And

22:52

it wasn't until he threw a couple of punches that

22:55

he was like, okay, I think I'm all right.

22:57

And luckily Pete's the one that gets

22:59

knocked down,

23:01

so he didn't really have to fall. But

23:03

yeah, it took some doing. I mean, again,

23:05

it was just a great

23:07

story. So I feel

23:09

lucky to have gotten that script. But I mean, it all looked

23:11

very real. Like some fight scenes you can tell where

23:14

they're sort of cheating a little bit and that

23:16

does not look like they're cheating at all. So that's

23:18

a testament to you, I think.

23:19

Well, just the writing leading up to that, doesn't

23:22

he say something like, He calls him, I don't

23:25

know, Pete says

23:27

something horrible to him. And he says, that's it, that's it.

23:30

He takes his coat off. And he goes, okay,

23:32

grandpa, you want to take your teeth out? You want me

23:34

to knock them out?

23:35

I mean, just the greatest, the

23:37

funniest. And you know, Vincent

23:40

Karthizer, I

23:42

think that might have been my favorite character

23:44

in the show because.

23:45

I love Pete Gamble. I hate

23:48

him and I love him. And

23:50

he was always right. I

23:52

mean, you look back and he was right about everybody, Kennedy

23:55

on down. I mean, as far

23:58

as

23:59

what direction.

24:00

the place should go and he just had issues

24:02

with his MO, but he's

24:05

just great. And very much, a

24:10

huge departure from Vincent's actual

24:12

personality too, which was a testament

24:15

to his skill in playing that guy because that was

24:17

not who he is.

24:19

So

24:20

there was a point there where Matt and AMC

24:22

had a pretty

24:24

long, maybe contentious,

24:26

renegotiation at some point and

24:29

things got held up a little bit. So

24:31

once all the smoke cleared, was it business as usual

24:33

after that? Or things change at all? Or sort

24:36

of

24:36

nothing to really report there? I

24:39

think Matt would have a different story having been on the inside

24:41

of that. But for us, it was a long period

24:45

not doing the show.

24:47

And then I think it changed schedules. It used

24:49

to be for myself. It used to be my

24:51

wife Talia played Mona, right?

24:54

And we had a little kid when we started was six

24:56

years old that's is that when we

24:58

my son Harry when we

25:00

Started he was six and when we went in the

25:03

last episode there, he was 16 So

25:06

it's you know, and it was like that for all of us.

25:08

I mean it was you know, a large chunk

25:10

of our lives

25:11

Was spent, you know

25:13

doing the show not all the time. It was usually about half

25:15

the year, but

25:16

it was in the summer

25:18

usually we would go out to LA and we would,

25:20

you know, kind of find a place to live and do that and

25:22

then it flipped.

25:24

So when after that negotiation

25:26

when we started shooting it was a different

25:28

it was like from the fall to the spring so

25:30

what that meant I

25:32

and I we've always lived in New York

25:35

whereas

25:35

most of the other cast I

25:36

think all of them lived in LA so I

25:38

was on a plane all the time

25:40

just because Talia

25:42

wasn't in it as much because Roger

25:44

had gotten divorced and And so

25:47

Mona wasn't in the show every episode.

25:50

And so it basically changed my life in that

25:52

way. But

25:53

I don't, being back on the show

25:56

and after the negotiation, it

25:59

didn't.

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["The

28:46

The The The

28:51

The dynamic between the men and the women in the office, very

28:54

much appropriate for the time, you

28:56

know, fair amount of sexism, a little bit of misogyny.

28:59

A little. A lot. You

29:04

know, we now live in a culture that's paying a lot

29:07

more attention to that. But just, I

29:09

mean, could you talk about, and also the

29:11

female characters pushing back and away,

29:14

which may or may not have been appropriate at the time,

29:17

can you talk a little bit about how that was

29:19

portrayed on the show and what

29:21

you guys thought of it at the time? Well,

29:24

I mean, it was sort of the point.

29:25

The whole exercise was showing

29:29

people who were witnesses

29:31

to history,

29:32

who were witnesses to that history. They

29:34

weren't the history makers. They were

29:37

the, like everyone else, they were witness to

29:39

some of the momentous moments in

29:44

the period in which that show took place. From

29:46

the misogyny to the racism to the anti-Semitism,

29:50

right from the very beginning, one of the scenes

29:54

don't in a bar and he's trying to figure

29:56

out.

36:00

to agree to do this. It definitely

36:02

helps, yeah. But I mean, just as far as

36:04

people, the way they view movies, you know, you used

36:06

to go to the movies all the time and people don't

36:08

go as much. And I remember telling someone

36:10

I saw their movie that they directed and

36:12

they said, where? And I said, on the flight back

36:15

from LA. And they kind of

36:17

hung their head like, don't ever tell anybody you

36:19

saw their movie on an airplane. And

36:21

I was on a plane the other day and I was like, I'd be thrilled

36:24

if I walked down the aisle and people were

36:27

watching this movie on an airplane. because

36:29

that's where people watch movies a lot

36:31

these days. Or, you know,

36:33

I guess, or at home on

36:35

television, this will have a theatrical release, which

36:38

I'm thrilled about because there's

36:40

no substitute for a couple hundred people

36:42

in a room in the dark watching it, you know,

36:45

it's just different. The experience is different

36:47

and it's

36:49

better as far as telling

36:51

a story and, you know,

36:54

the experience, I think.

36:55

I mean, it's a hard time for everybody, TV

36:58

as well, Like, even they've shot entire

37:00

seasons of shows and been like, eh, nevermind. We're

37:02

not going to show you that. It's scary.

37:04

Yeah. Well, you know, Mad Men,

37:06

I think, is part, plays a

37:08

role in all that. You know, there was, you

37:10

know, there was, the era of Mad Men

37:12

and the era that introduced, I think, with, you know, the kind

37:15

of

37:16

programming that people

37:17

on TV were doing beyond HBO, really

37:20

began to fill, you know, that's what you used to go to the movies

37:22

for, right? On a Friday night. They would

37:24

make the kind of movie that you just made, John, which

37:27

is a great high concept, great cast,

37:30

people you wanted to see, great story. And

37:34

they kind of stopped doing that in the movie business. And

37:36

then the quality of the television shows, just

37:39

they were making more, they were making great, great,

37:41

great shows. And then of course streaming came

37:43

along and certainly people like

37:46

me thought, well, maybe I'll just stay home Friday

37:47

night. There's something good on

37:49

TV to watch versus having to go

37:51

to the movies for that kind of quality.

37:53

Yeah, complicated stories, not necessarily,

37:56

I

37:56

don't know. It's, I don't

37:59

know the. economics

38:00

of it or

38:02

make it weird. I mean, the

38:05

movie going experience, I mean,

38:07

the whole process, I don't know.

38:09

I don't know what the answer is to get people

38:11

to go back to the theaters.

38:14

I guess there's an uptick

38:15

of late, but. Right. And

38:18

I hope it comes back. Yeah, the

38:20

television, the material in television has

38:22

been

38:24

phenomenal and that's where those stories are. Yeah.

38:27

especially in the current climate,

38:30

I feel like if Mad Men had started like

38:32

a year ago maybe, like it might

38:34

not have gone all the way to seven seasons, like,

38:36

because they're just canceling so many things, and Mad

38:38

Men is the kind of show that is a slow

38:41

burn and it takes its time and

38:43

I just could see them, I mean, I don't know if you agree.

38:45

Yeah, I don't. I think

38:47

Mad Men just on critical

38:49

acclaim buzz, you

38:51

know, I'm sure it did very

38:54

good ratings for AMC, maybe

38:56

not Walking Dead, but it did incredibly

38:58

great. And I think that, I think

39:00

Mad Men just on quality lives. I

39:02

think there are a lot of shows out there that, there's

39:04

a niche business, that's where

39:07

the requirements,

39:09

I mean, look at, they're all single

39:11

digits. I mean, if you've got 8 million

39:13

people watching a show in 1990, whatever,

39:17

you wouldn't have made the second episode. Right.

39:20

So, yeah, I think

39:22

I agree with Doug that it was good, it

39:24

was so good and so specific

39:27

that it would have

39:28

survived. But it's hard

39:30

to cut through the noise. I mean, that's the thing is like,

39:32

how do you,

39:34

how do you get people's attention? A lot

39:36

of choices. When you can literally fill up your car with

39:38

gas and there's a TV show playing on

39:40

the gas pump. You're like,

39:43

this stuff is everywhere.

39:46

Yeah, and by the way, that was, my comment was not at all

39:48

about the quality of the show. I've just become extremely

39:52

cynical in the past couple months because I've seen

39:54

so many shows getting canceled that I think are very, very

39:56

good. So that's where that's coming from. I'm

39:58

mad at the cable execs like Doug.

40:00

No streaming execs, not

40:02

cable execs, streaming execs. Oh yes, oh, absolve

40:04

yourself of all responsibility. Yeah, exactly. What's

40:07

your favorite show that got canceled? You know, there's

40:09

a great show that was on Showtime called Work

40:11

in Progress that I really loved that

40:13

got canceled. Jason Katum has made a show

40:15

last year that focused on these autistic

40:17

young adults that was really lovely and beautiful

40:20

and it got canceled. So I mean,

40:22

I could make a list probably all

40:24

day.

40:25

Yeah. She watches a lot of TV, John. I

40:28

do. It's her job. It's

40:31

her job. You want to

40:32

got anything, anything else you want to cover, Jim,

40:34

for the last one? No, I don't want to keep John too much longer.

40:37

So I think we should ask him our

40:39

usual last question, which is,

40:41

aside from things that you've worked on yourself, what

40:44

is your favorite basic cable television show

40:46

of all time?

40:47

Oh my god. Basic

40:50

cable

40:52

television show of all time. Oh, I just

40:54

remember what that AMC show was. It was called Remember

40:56

When.

40:57

Oh, that's right. Yeah. Glad we cleared that up.

41:00

Ironic that we couldn't remember it. I

41:03

don't think I have an answer for this. How can

41:05

I not have an answer for this? And I know I should

41:07

have thought about this and I tried,

41:09

but like... Do you go Breaking

41:11

Bad? Do you go... Well, I would...

41:14

I tried not to... And I didn't want

41:17

to say Breaking Bad because, you know, we used to have this like sort

41:19

of rivalry with Breaking Bad where

41:21

we would go to the Emmys and we

41:23

would get a bunch of acting nominations and

41:26

they would... You know, we would all get nominated for all kinds

41:29

of stuff, and

41:29

then we would lose all the acting

41:32

awards we would lose. And

41:35

I would be the first one that lost every

41:38

night. Right. Right. That's supporting

41:40

actors early in the show. Every award show,

41:43

I was the first one that lost. I'd

41:45

be sitting there, and Ham would be sitting in front of me,

41:47

and he would go, get away from me. Go, get

41:50

away. He'd go, you loser. Get

41:53

away. Get back. go sit over there because

41:57

and then we won the best show there

41:59

for a few.

42:00

years in a row, and they would win all the acting

42:02

awards. So they were sort of

42:04

and I never I don't know, for whatever reason, I went pilot,

42:06

and then I stopped.

42:08

And I

42:09

and then I went back during COVID. And I watched

42:12

it and I really,

42:13

it's pretty hard to

42:16

to dispute how great it is.

42:19

Well, we'll take that we'll take that as your answer. And those

42:21

guys are so great. So

42:24

that maybe a little little saw thrown

42:26

in there. That's sort of Oh, yeah, sure. Great.

42:28

Yeah, That's a great show also.

42:31

Well, John, we really appreciate having

42:33

you today. We appreciate you spending some time with us. It was

42:35

great to talk to you. Thank you very much for having

42:38

me. I appreciate it.

42:45

So that was a great discussion with John

42:47

Slattery. And we had

42:49

a little point of debate toward the end there

42:52

when I said that I wasn't sure Mad Men

42:54

would be made for a full seven seasons if it got green

42:56

lit, you know, in

42:58

the past couple years, only because

43:00

I just think that streamers

43:04

and cable networks are just, they

43:07

just don't have a lot of patience to

43:09

wait and see what kind of cultural impact

43:11

something is going to make. And it's

43:14

not a knock on mad men, I think it's great, but I'm

43:16

glad it came along when it did because I'm not sure it would

43:19

have been able to have the life it did if it had

43:21

come along a little bit later.

43:22

Well, I'm gonna disagree a little bit like

43:24

I did in our previous conversation,

43:28

in that I think if it

43:30

got on the air, it probably

43:32

had a decent chance of continuing,

43:36

at least the way I remember, the way it sort of built.

43:39

But I think maybe the bigger question is,

43:42

would anybody greenlight a show in 2023

43:46

about a bunch of white

43:48

guys going back to a day

43:50

when white men sort of ruled the roost

43:52

in

43:55

a very particular way, with

43:57

that, you know, forget about how.

44:00

elegantly the show was done and how

44:02

brilliantly it was written and everything about it. But,

44:04

you know, would that pass to Smeltest,

44:07

you know, for a development executive

44:09

or a streaming exec in 2023?

44:12

I mean, that's an interesting

44:14

question. Again, I think the thing about Mad Men to

44:16

me was that it was

44:19

presenting these guys but not

44:21

condoning their behavior and over time.

44:24

And

44:24

even in some of the earlier seasons, Like,

44:28

the women were the real heroes. Joan

44:31

and Peggy and even to some extent, Betty

44:34

for putting up with Don's bullshit. Like,

44:37

and I think that I always sensed that watching the show. I

44:39

never sensed that they thought these guys... These guys are great, aren't

44:41

they hilarious? Although there are certainly people who could

44:43

watch it and come away with that attitude.

44:46

But I do think because it is so subtle, that

44:49

might be an issue as well. But I

44:52

also think it's the kind of show that just, like I said,

44:54

it takes its time. It's time, it's really detail-oriented.

44:57

And the reason I think that we love these characters

44:59

so much, or at least I miss them

45:01

a great deal, is because it had

45:03

the ability to do that, to just let you

45:06

hang out with these people and observe them

45:08

in a way that a show that's super

45:10

plot-driven and has to be

45:13

X number of episodes can't

45:15

do that.

45:16

And by the way, in a way that I'm trying

45:18

to think of another show I could even compare

45:20

to it in the regard that you

45:22

just pointed out, it

45:25

really feels singular in that regard.

45:26

Well, I mean, there are shows that take their time

45:28

and that are very focused on human behavior as

45:30

opposed to plot. But no, but I mean, you're going back to what you

45:33

said about, you know, the time, the place,

45:35

and the characters that inhabited

45:37

it. And, you know, it almost

45:40

feels like a snapshot of a particular time

45:42

and place and the people who are living in it.

45:46

You know, sort of anything else, I'm not sure I've ever

45:49

felt that way about another show. Well, and as we've

45:51

talked about, I think, like nostalgia

45:53

drives so much of what,

45:57

you know, ends up being on our screens. and

45:59

not

46:00

and now it's nostalgia for Star Wars or

46:02

nostalgia for some kind of a franchise. But

46:04

Mad Men kind of approached that from a different way because it

46:06

was hugely influential

46:09

in terms of fashion and home

46:11

design. I mean, there were millions of articles written about

46:13

what impact it had there. So

46:17

in that sense, it was nostalgia. It just wasn't like

46:19

nostalgia for how people were treated. And

46:22

that gets back to where it's, like you said, kind of tricky

46:25

to balance those two things.

46:26

so well done. I mean, in terms of its,

46:29

you know, the way it, its accuracy

46:31

in depicting the style and the culture

46:33

and the wardrobes of the time

46:36

and even the way people spoke and acted like

46:38

it now watching it several years later again,

46:40

it

46:41

feels like it could have been made

46:43

in the period that it depicts. It's

46:46

that well done. Yeah, no, I agree with that.

46:48

And I hate, I hate period things that

46:50

are like, sometimes you watch something that's set in a

46:52

period and it feels like it's set at like an 80s party

46:55

as opposed to in the actual 80s. Right,

46:57

exactly. And this never, never

46:59

felt that

46:59

way. Ever, ever, ever. To the point, there's

47:02

a, I forget, there's a Christmas party scene in one of

47:04

the episodes where there's a woman wearing

47:06

like a

47:07

green dress that's like brocade flowers.

47:09

My mother had that, she had that dress.

47:11

I wore it to my homecoming dance in ninth grade. And

47:14

it was her dress from like the 60s, so it

47:17

was very accurate.

47:17

All right, final point before we go. So

47:20

in watching it now, Don Draper

47:24

at the time I think struck me as complicated,

47:27

dark, etc.

47:29

And watching it now, he seems

47:31

like a sociopath. Am

47:35

I alone on this?

47:37

No, I think that's

47:39

fair. And I would say that part

47:42

of the reason that you didn't completely

47:44

dislike him or not want to

47:47

watch him was because of Jon Hamm. He

47:49

has a really great way of leaning

47:51

into those dark parts of who Don

47:53

is, but also just

47:55

being sort of droll and a little bit like,

47:57

I kind of want to be that guy, just minus all the

47:59

lies. is

48:00

in the right sleeping around

48:02

and all the bad things that he does. Right. Yeah.

48:05

Well,

48:05

we hope you enjoyed our conversation

48:08

with John Slattery as much as Jen and I did. And

48:10

I hope you'll be back with us next time on Basic.

48:13

Basic is a Pantheon

48:15

media production in partnership with Sirius

48:18

XM, hosted by Jen Chaney and Doug

48:20

Herzog, produced by Christian

48:22

Swain and Peter Ferrioli. Lindley

48:24

Erlich is our assistant producer, sound

48:26

design and music by Jerry and mastered by Brian

48:29

Slusher. Recorded

48:31

and edited by Zach Spiesner. You

48:34

can find Basic on Apple Podcasts, the

48:36

Sirius XM app, Pandora,

48:39

Stitcher, or wherever you like to listen. If

48:41

you like the show, please rate, review, and share so

48:44

other people can find us.

48:45

Don't forget to follow the show so you never

48:47

miss an episode.

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