0:00

Hi listeners. In

0:00

this episode, I just wanted to

0:03

say that we will be discussing

0:03

the subject matter of suicide.

0:08

Now, if there is any one that is

0:08

having some issues right now and

0:12

need someone to talk to, I have

0:12

listed some numbers for

0:16

Australia that you can call on

0:16

our show notes. Thank you.

0:21

Hello, my name is Jeremy Melder.

0:21

And I'm the presenter from b

0:25

Beaming Green. Before we start,

0:25

I would like to acknowledge that

0:30

this podcast is being held on

0:30

the traditional lands of the

0:33

Bundjalung people and pay our

0:33

respects to elders both past

0:39

present and emerging. The

0:39

Beaming Green podcast is a

0:45

weekly podcast, which will help

0:45

you to take out some of the

0:49

stress and confusion about how

0:49

to live your life more

0:53

sustainably. And we do this by

0:53

introducing people that have

0:58

first hand experience and

0:58

expertise in all aspects of

1:02

sustainability. So you can get

1:02

some amazing insight on how you

1:07

can implement the simple and

1:07

practical solutions to enhance

1:11

your life and the lives of your

1:11

family.

1:23

Today, I'm speaking with Ursula

1:23

Wharton, from Murwillumbah in

1:28

Northern New South Wales, about

1:28

her organization, Deep

1:32

Listeners, which she set up in

1:32

late 2018, after losing her son,

1:38

Josh to suicide in 2017. I

1:38

wanted to have Ursula on the

1:44

podcast, as mental health issues

1:44

are on the rise. And Deep

1:50

Listeners provides a much needed

1:50

service that other communities

1:55

can replicate. Ursula Walton,

1:55

welcome to Beaming Green.

2:03

Thank you, Jeremy. It's great to be here.

2:05

Now I remember

2:05

coming to a presentation, which

2:10

was a thing coordinated by "It

2:10

Takes a Town and Pitch for

2:15

Change.

2:16

Yes,

2:17

I think it was in

2:17

2019, if I'm not mistaken. And

2:20

you were doing a presentation

2:20

about your project that you were

2:26

about to embark on in 2019. And

2:26

I must say I was quite moved by

2:32

this project and actually voted

2:32

for you. But for our listeners,

2:38

if you could run us through, you

2:38

know what Deep Listeners, is and

2:44

why you started it and so on?

2:48

Well, I'll try and break it down. I'm always afraid of the first question,

2:50

and I end up my brain goes in

2:54

100 different directions. So the

2:54

big pitch by It Takes a Town.

3:01

They had mentored us through 12

3:01

weeks. And my project Deep

3:06

Listeners. And I had come into

3:06

the project 12 odd weeks early

3:12

on, because I'd done a suicide

3:12

alertness workshop. And I said

3:19

to the lady there, look, I'd

3:19

really like us as a community to

3:23

be able to let everyone know,

3:23

I'm here I care. I will listen

3:28

to you. And she said, Oh, I like

3:28

this idea. I'm going to

3:31

introduce you to Carmen from It

3:31

Takes a Town. And that's really

3:36

how things started off. And back

3:36

then my idea was just a video on

3:42

social media on Murwillumbah

3:42

matters of people who had

3:46

perhaps done the training, were

3:46

committed to listening

3:50

compassionately to people and

3:50

weren't afraid to put the face

3:54

out there. So over the course of

3:54

this 12 weeks, deep listeners

4:00

emerged as as the project. And

4:00

at this point deep listeners is

4:08

it's about a badge, that we can

4:08

indicate that we are a person

4:14

who at this moment in time while

4:14

I'm wearing the badge, I'm

4:17

available for you undistracted

4:17

for up to an hour, no judgement

4:23

compassionately singing, no

4:23

advice unless asked for, you

4:28

know, all of the beautiful

4:28

things that make us feel heard

4:33

and validated. Because everyone

4:33

needs to feel heard and

4:37

validated. And I feel that in

4:37

our culture, this is happening.

4:43

Very seldom and there is a big

4:43

hole in many people's lives.

4:49

Where we're not feeling heard

4:49

and validated and seen. We don't

4:53

feel that we really belong.

4:55

Yeah, yeah. And

4:55

why do you think that is?

5:01

Yeah, I was

5:01

thinking just as I was coming in

5:04

about social shaping or cultural

5:04

shaping, and culture is weird

5:09

beast. And it takes all of us to

5:09

be part of to shape culture. And

5:16

our culture is a little

5:16

misshapen. At this point in

5:20

time. There's so much

5:25

focus on the individual. The me

5:25

culture and leaving everything

5:32

to the immediate family isn't in

5:32

our best interest as a

5:39

community. And I think this is

5:39

part of where Carmen was coming

5:42

from. Yeah, It Takes a Town.

5:42

There's a lot of truth in that

5:48

old saying that it takes a

5:48

village to raise a child. And

5:53

the less our own cups are filled

5:53

with love and belonging from

5:58

those around us, the less we

5:58

have available, I guess, yeah,

6:02

to be there, for others. And I

6:02

feel that we're all walking

6:07

around with a bit of a deficit.

6:09

Yeah, absolutely.

6:09

So Ursula when I asked you the

6:13

question that, you know, why did

6:13

you start this what was really

6:18

the catalyst for you to get

6:18

involved in? In this project? I

6:24

see the shirt that I'm wearing.

6:24

Obviously, your listners can't.

6:28

Well, just for our listeners,

6:28

I'll just say it's, number one

6:32

is love. And number two is

6:32

peace. And number three is help

6:38

the world.

6:40

Yeah, so and the

6:40

hashtag is Joshua's wish, Joshua

6:43

was my teenage boy. And I lost

6:43

him three years ago, in

6:49

September 2017, to suicide.

6:51

So it was a preventable tragedy.

6:51

And I've come to understand a

7:04

lot about society's role in

7:04

suicide, and how suicide really

7:14

is a whole of community issue.

7:14

You know, as much as it takes a

7:18

village to raise a child, I feel

7:18

that it takes a village for

7:22

someone to die by suicide.

7:22

That's a bit rough, that that's

7:27

a bit accusatory, I suppose, to

7:27

anyone listening right now. And

7:32

I understand that. If I can

7:32

backtrack a little bit. We had a

7:41

couple of really tough years

7:41

after something quite bad

7:44

happened to Josh. He was 15 at

7:44

the time, and there was a lot of

7:51

trauma and shame and real

7:51

difficulty in processing that.

8:00

And not receiving from the

8:00

people around him. Acceptance

8:07

and compassion for who he was,

8:07

and the difficulty he was going

8:12

through, and how perhaps, it

8:12

that he behaved as part of it a

8:18

teenager, in real trouble. As

8:18

immediate family, you do what

8:25

you can, and sometimes it's not

8:25

until later that you understand

8:28

that as much as you loved and

8:28

tried your hardest. If you

8:34

didn't have the skills that love

8:34

may not have been received by

8:42

the person hurting. Yeah, in the

8:42

way you intended it.

8:45

Yeah. And, and so

8:45

this, this is obviously a sad

8:54

moment in your life, in losing

8:54

your, your son, and and what you

9:00

you're doing now is trying to

9:00

help other people. And, yeah, so

9:07

this is you're doing something

9:07

you know, you're wearing a T

9:09

shirt that I know that your son

9:09

wrote those words on a post it

9:14

note or something and left it

9:14

there for you. And he's helped

9:21

you to turn that page and do

9:21

something positive out of that.

9:25

Absolutely. I

9:27

and I want to

9:27

say, I am feeling sadness for

9:32

your loss of your son. And, you

9:32

know, I'm not wanting to take

9:39

away from that by asking you the

9:39

next question. I just want to

9:42

clarify that. It is just that I

9:42

think I'd like you to talk to

9:47

what you're doing about that now.

9:49

Yeah, sure. And

9:49

you're absolutely right, that

9:53

Joshua's message that we call

9:53

Joshua's wish, and I have a

9:58

website Joshua's wish.com Those

9:58

words are what set my grief in a

10:03

positive direction. So it's so

10:03

easy and so tempting to fall

10:12

into a grief hole, especially as

10:12

I mean, the shame of being a

10:16

parent who has lost a child to

10:16

suicide. I can't tell you

10:19

there's no shame in that. That

10:19

is, you know, that is a shame

10:25

upon me, and I know a lot of

10:25

parents who've lost to suicide,

10:32

who really struggle with, I

10:32

guess, society's expectation

10:38

that you'll be forever scarred.

10:38

But for me, Josh left that

10:43

message. And I needed to honor

10:43

him and honor his memory by

10:49

living to those values that he

10:49

had given me. I certainly

10:55

wouldn't say that, you know,

10:55

that this embodied how I behaved

11:01

as a person before that. I

11:01

certainly had a thing for

11:07

justice.

11:08

Yeah.

11:10

Which is, which

11:10

is carried me through. But, you

11:13

know, in those two years, I was

11:13

so desperate for help. And I saw

11:17

so many people not able to help

11:17

in the way that Josh needed

11:22

acceptance and compassion. And

11:22

I've come to believe 100% that

11:27

compassion is the medicine for

11:27

all that ails us emotionally and

11:33

spiritually and psychologically.

11:33

And that anyone can give the

11:38

medicine of compassion?

11:42

And do you think

11:42

compassion is something that is

11:46

just a natural process that

11:46

people have? Or can they be

11:50

trained to have compassion?

11:50

Because we have more I'll speak

11:55

for myself, I have ideas of what

11:55

compassion is, but yours might

11:59

be different as to another

11:59

person next to me. Absolutely.

12:03

And I was just

12:03

looking at the Buddhist nuns,

12:06

pet Penner, Pema, Chodron thank

12:06

you very much. No good

12:12

pronunciation. And her

12:12

definition of compassion was not

12:16

the same as mine. So I

12:16

appreciate you bringing

12:19

attention to the definition. So,

12:19

for me, compassion is feeling

12:25

into the other person's pain,

12:25

you know, really understanding

12:29

and acknowledging the person's

12:29

pain, not owning it by any

12:33

means. Still owning our own

12:33

stuff, allowing them to own

12:37

their own story, feeling into

12:37

the experience that they're

12:41

having. And all emotions are

12:41

valid.

12:44

Yeah,

12:44

yeah. And with

12:44

that, the second part of

12:48

compassion is being compelled to

12:48

act to ease that suffering.

12:53

Yeah. Yeah. And

12:53

when would you say that it's not

12:56

attached to an outcome? So this

12:56

coming from a place of

13:00

compassion? You know, is not I'm

13:00

doing this because I want x, y

13:05

and Zed to have absolutely,

13:06

yes. Compassion

13:06

must be for its own sake,

13:10

really. And in deep listeners,

13:10

we've come up with nine ethics.

13:17

deep listening is not a series

13:17

of steps. It is an attitude.

13:24

Yeah. It's an attitude that we

13:24

take to listening to somebody to

13:30

accepting where they're at. And

13:30

that what they're feeling is

13:35

valid and part of the human

13:35

condition. It's not being there

13:40

with any motivation to fix. This

13:40

is a big pitfall. Yeah, of

13:48

wanting to help is the drive to

13:48

fix. We don't need to fix and

13:54

indeed, it's not our role to fix

13:54

many of these things.

13:57

And there's a lot

13:57

of studies that say that not to

14:01

be put this on as men, but

14:01

apparently men like to fix more

14:07

than women. Do you know what I'm

14:07

I don't know if that's true or

14:10

not

14:10

100%? Correct,

14:10

that it is gendered in different

14:13

ways. Young men are more

14:13

practical in their fixing. Women

14:18

still want to fix? Yeah, but it

14:18

might be done in a more social

14:21

way.

14:22

Yeah. I think in

14:22

terms of the the fixing or not

14:26

fixing the listening. What's

14:26

your experience like? So for

14:30

example, in Josh's situation,

14:30

when he said that he was calling

14:35

out for help. Did you feel like

14:35

that was something that you

14:41

could have attended better to or

14:41

do you feel like there was more

14:44

in a community because you

14:44

mentioned the community, the

14:46

village weren't hearing Josh's

14:46

call?

14:52

I'd like to put

14:52

us all in that moment of what do

14:57

we need as human beings we all

14:57

need love and belonging. And if

15:02

something really bad has

15:02

happened to you, you know,

15:05

you're not feeling a sense of

15:05

worth, and you're not feeling of

15:07

belonging, to feel love and

15:07

belonging in our village, in our

15:12

society, we need more than one

15:12

person to believe in us to care

15:17

about us to validate and see and

15:17

hear us. If every person you

15:24

walk past treats you as

15:24

invisible, if every person you

15:28

walk past thinks you are a bad

15:28

person, if every person you walk

15:34

past doesn't want to hear you

15:34

doesn't want to validate you,

15:39

then your world becomes smaller

15:39

and more alienated. And that

15:45

leaves people very vulnerable. I

15:45

feel that many of the things

15:55

that happened to us many of the

15:55

things that we have done, can be

15:59

repaired with the compassion of

15:59

those around us. And it does

16:06

take the reflection of a number

16:06

of people. If you we, as human

16:12

beings, I think we may use a

16:12

mirror to see what we look like,

16:17

we may use a recording, to hear

16:17

what we sound like. But in terms

16:21

of who we are, as a being, we

16:21

require other human beings to

16:25

reflect back upon us. And if

16:25

you're seeing 1000 mirrors, and

16:31

only one of those is showing

16:31

that you are here and you are

16:36

worthy. The message isn't very

16:36

strong. Know that you belong in

16:40

this world.

16:41

Yeah. This seems

16:41

to be my observation. And you

16:47

probably got some statistics on

16:47

this is that it's on the rise,

16:50

this feeling of, you know, being

16:50

alone, not cared about? not

16:57

heard.

16:58

loneliness,

16:58

isolation? Yeah, alienation.

17:02

They are absolutely and many of

17:02

us who are used to social

17:07

connection, and I suppose if you

17:07

are so used to a lot of social

17:10

support, it's like, you know,

17:10

when you injure a part of your

17:16

body, and you suddenly realize

17:16

just how important that is. If

17:19

you are someone who has always

17:19

had a lot of great social

17:21

connection around you always had

17:21

people who believe in you, who

17:25

see the good in you, who will

17:25

hear your shame and respond with

17:29

compassion, then you might not

17:29

understand because you haven't

17:34

lost that.

17:35

Yeah, yeah. What

17:35

can we do about that? Knowing

17:39

that there is there is an issue

17:39

now you've obviously got this

17:42

great project that it's now in

17:42

its second year. Is that right

17:47

now? 2021? Yeah.

17:51

It was November

17:51

2019. When when I put the

17:54

invitation out there. And more

17:54

and more people have joined all

17:58

the time, and it's still very

17:58

young. You know, we still spent

18:01

six months developing wall. What

18:01

are our ethics? What does deep

18:05

listening really look like? And

18:05

how will we do it? Exactly. So

18:08

yes, still beginning. But you'll

18:08

start to see those badges out

18:11

there. We've got a few people

18:11

who've earned them. Yeah. Look,

18:17

the vision of Deep Listeners is

18:17

that deep compassionate

18:22

listening is just part of what

18:22

we do. Yeah, in our community.

18:27

And to embody deep listening in

18:27

it to be someone who contributes

18:34

to that vision of a more

18:34

compassionate community. We go

18:39

through those ethics. Yeah. Am I

18:39

when when someone's telling me

18:43

something deep, something

18:43

painful, something vulnerable?

18:46

Am I flicking the switch and

18:46

turning off my judgment to the

18:49

best of my ability? Am I setting

18:49

my judgment aside? And just

18:54

seeing that we're all human, we

18:54

all make mistakes, we're all

18:56

vulnerable. And the

18:56

vulnerability connects us more.

18:59

Yeah. So we're suspending

18:59

judgment. We're not giving

19:02

advice. We're withholding the

19:02

fix it mode. Yeah. Fix it mode

19:07

is a real danger. Really, what

19:07

people what we all really need,

19:12

if we ask ourselves is to feel

19:12

heard and validated about where

19:16

we're at, to get a reflection

19:16

from someone about where we're

19:20

at, and whether it's, you know,

19:20

normal for for a human being to

19:24

experience? Yeah.

19:25

And how are you

19:25

finding people? You know, I know

19:29

that you have made it, your

19:29

specific locations that you say

19:34

that you're going to be

19:34

available at? Is that correct?

19:37

Deep Listeners,

19:37

is ideally organic and

19:42

authentic. So you're bumping

19:42

into someone with a badge. Yep.

19:45

And saying, hey, you want a deep

19:45

conversation? You're asking

19:48

you're inviting me to get deep

19:48

with you and connect with you

19:51

and you're promising. You're

19:51

going to respect my privacy,

19:55

you're going to be non

19:55

judgmental. You're going to give

19:57

me that hours attention. Great.

19:57

I'm in for it, let's have a deep

20:01

conversation. Yeah, here's a

20:01

cafe or here's the park. Let's

20:05

do a do a circuit. And you'll

20:05

notice as I am a bench now in

20:10

the middle of Knox Park sort of

20:10

right in the middle,

20:12

that's what I was alluding to. So there is a bench, right? Yeah.

20:15

Yeah. So I'm

20:15

very excited about that it's

20:17

under a tree. And there's enough

20:17

kind of privacy around it,

20:20

people don't really generally

20:20

stop unless it's a busy weekend,

20:23

and they're picnicking on the

20:23

hill beside there. And you can

20:27

pop into the markets, nine till

20:27

11 on Wednesdays and things and

20:31

we'll be in the library soon as

20:31

well to wonderful. The idea what

20:37

I'm really hoping is that as a

20:37

community, we'll be seeing each

20:41

other around, we listen to

20:41

badges. And, you know, I would

20:47

love to see in five years time,

20:47

we don't even need them, because

20:52

this community believes in and

20:52

is part of compassionate

20:57

listening. And we know what it

20:57

takes to listen compassionately

21:00

to each other, you know, and

21:00

when we listen compassionately

21:03

to each other, we both benefit.

21:03

We are both connecting, and

21:07

we've our own cup is filled. And

21:07

this is one of the strange

21:11

things about compassion. And you

21:11

know, the whole sort of talk

21:16

around compassion, fatigue and

21:16

burnout. I understand where

21:21

people come from, in perhaps

21:21

having more need come at them

21:28

than they are ready to take on

21:28

or not having the time or the

21:32

capacity to do that. And Daniel

21:32

Goldman is wonderful. He says,

21:36

yes, you can teach empathy. Of

21:36

course you can. Yeah. And if we

21:39

take away things like the lack

21:39

of time, we are naturally going

21:44

to be more empathetic.

21:46

Yeah, it's important, isn't it?

21:47

Yes. And yes,

21:47

this is tough. We're also busy.

21:53

But one of the kinds of things

21:53

to do is to say, I really value

21:56

you. And at this moment, I only

21:56

have 10 minutes, five minutes at

22:00

this moment. I actually can't.

22:00

But I really do want to connect

22:06

with you. Yeah. And I have this

22:06

time available at this point.

22:09

Yeah. Yeah. So we need to fill

22:09

our own cup. And how do we do

22:14

that when it's such a catch 22.

22:14

And the whole of our community?

22:18

Just about? Yeah, maybe I'm

22:18

being dramatic. Is, is feeling a

22:22

deficit?

22:23

Yeah. Look,speaks

22:23

I speak to a few psychologists

22:26

who say that their books are

22:26

full. Oh, yes, absolutely. So

22:30

there's obviously a need for

22:30

someone to speak to and fill

22:33

this huge, huge need. And in

22:33

terms of training, if I want to

22:38

become a listener, which I'm

22:38

keen to learn about, even if

22:43

it's just for my own family,

22:43

just to listen to my own family.

22:47

I might not want to go out in

22:47

the community, but don't know as

22:50

yet. But if I wanted to, what

22:50

sort of training would I need to

22:53

do?

22:54

Oh, that's a perfect question. We have three different levels of you know,

22:55

coming in and being involved in

22:59

the Deep Listener idea. Yeah. At

22:59

the first level, you just come

23:02

in, do the training, use it for

23:02

your own purposes. Perfect.

23:05

Yeah. That's great. That's what

23:05

it's for. At the second level,

23:09

you're part of the collective

23:09

and you can access, ongoing

23:12

training, ongoing support,

23:12

ongoing meetups, things like

23:15

that. And at the, you know, the

23:15

top level, it's quite stringent,

23:19

you have to go through a lot of

23:19

checks, you have to meet a big

23:21

list of competencies. But we

23:21

need that, we need to make sure

23:24

that those those people who are

23:24

wearing a badge can be trusted

23:27

with our darkest secrets, can be

23:27

trusted to be beautiful,

23:32

compassionate people wherever

23:32

they go with the badge. So we

23:37

offer the training, and I've actually got some training coming up. Safe talk is a

23:39

suicide alertness for everyone.

23:43

And it is really important that

23:43

we all begin to open our eyes to

23:48

suicide, because actually, the,

23:48

you're going to be blown away by

23:52

this statistic. I certainly was.

23:52

One in 20 people in any given

23:58

fortnight has thoughts of

23:58

suicide.

24:03

One in twenty

24:04

It's huge. It is

24:04

so much a part of the human

24:07

condition. And for so long, we

24:07

have hidden it under the carpet.

24:11

We've pretended that it means

24:11

that we're broken, or that it's

24:15

not happening. And this is

24:15

dangerous, because not talking

24:18

about suicide. kills people.

24:18

Yeah, once we let it out into

24:23

the open once we start talking,

24:23

we're beginning to heal. A

24:27

beautiful quote, people start to

24:27

heal the moment they are heard.

24:30

Yeah, it's really

24:30

important to be heard and feel

24:33

validated, validated in what

24:33

you're feeling. Yes. You know,

24:36

it's such an important thing.

24:36

Now is that statistic I'm sorry.

24:40

Is that Australia? Yes. It's 21.

24:40

Yes. Wow. Yeah. So

24:44

Robert Goldman.

24:44

I think his name is has been

24:47

doing this since the 80. So it's

24:47

a general health questionnaire

24:50

and it includes three different

24:50

questions around suicidal

24:54

thoughts. Yeah. So golden is the

24:54

person you want to look up if

24:58

you don't check that stuff.

24:58

mistake. So I have safe talk

25:01

coming up on the 21st of

25:01

January, I have assist, which is

25:05

the full, if you want to be able

25:05

to intervene properly when

25:08

someone has thoughts of suicide,

25:08

and this is the training that

25:10

Lifeline counselors do. Assist

25:10

is the way to go, I've got the

25:14

weekend of the sixth and seventh

25:14

of February Murwillumbah. And

25:18

then Deep Listening, gatekeeper

25:18

training is coming up as well.

25:21

So that's, if you're a

25:21

hairdresser or a barista, or a

25:25

bartender or a coach, or if your

25:25

role means that you are an

25:30

incidental listener, an

25:30

incidental counselor, but you

25:34

wanting a few more skills to

25:34

help you in that. That's what

25:37

the gatekeeper workshop is for.

25:37

It's only a four hour workshop.

25:40

And it really helps with things

25:40

like you know, keeping your own

25:44

energies up, and what are the

25:44

real do's and don'ts and

25:46

pitfalls and, and things like

25:46

that. So that's on the 28th of

25:49

January. So all of those can be

25:49

accessed on deeplisteners.org.

25:53

Okay, that sounds

25:53

great. Yeah, listening is such

25:57

an important element. But I also

25:57

think it's important in the

26:01

workplace. Yes. Right. When

26:01

you're, you know, you work for

26:05

organizations, you know, you

26:05

talked about baristas, and so

26:08

on. But there are some bigger

26:08

companies that, you know, some

26:11

people feel hemmed in, in their

26:11

own businesses that they work

26:14

with, they got no one to talk

26:14

to, is there a plan for you

26:18

know, sort of doing deep

26:18

listening in corporations?

26:23

Oh, that'd be

26:23

amazing. Yeah, and I guess it's

26:26

a very much start small and

26:26

absolutely spread to wherever we

26:30

can, you know, we, human beings,

26:30

no matter whether we are at

26:34

home, no matter where at play,

26:34

or at work, we're still human

26:39

beings with those same

26:39

irreducible needs for love and

26:42

belonging, and feeling heard,

26:42

offers both of those things, it

26:46

fills our spiritual cup fills

26:46

that emotional cup. And yes, in

26:53

all of those environments, and

26:53

for me, I worked in a big place

26:57

as well, I've worked for

26:57

government departments, and it's

27:01

siloed away as the, what's the

27:01

name for it? I'm familiar with

27:07

it. There's, there's a specific

27:07

name. So these companies have

27:13

paid psychologists, the employee

27:13

assistance program, EAP, there

27:19

you go. You know, and, and I was

27:19

at a point once, and it's

27:23

entirely human, that we all go

27:23

through challenges and troubles

27:27

and stresses. And not all of

27:27

those are of our own making,

27:32

either quite often they're not,

27:32

it's just a human thing. And I

27:36

remember needing to use the EAP

27:36

and thinking, I feel rejected by

27:40

my workplace that I can't have

27:40

this conversation in my

27:43

workplace, actually. And there's

27:43

some really wonderful research

27:48

about just how beneficial peer

27:48

listening is, it is actually

27:54

more beneficial than a

27:54

professional than a

27:57

psychologist. And I believe that

27:57

a lot of that is about the

28:00

authenticity. It's, it's a two

28:00

way street between human beings.

28:04

And when we place those

28:04

workplace barriers in front, it

28:10

doesn't allow us to get the full

28:10

value, you know, when we know

28:14

that someone is obliged to hear

28:14

us and to nod, it doesn't quite

28:18

have the same values, either as

28:18

you work mate, or your friend or

28:23

your deep listener, who has no

28:23

obligation whatsoever to listen

28:26

to you. But does it?

28:27

Yeah, look, I I

28:27

totally relate to what you're

28:31

saying. Because it is siloed

28:31

away, I've had to use EAP as

28:34

well. And I felt like this is,

28:34

you know, non non engaging, you

28:40

know, feels like I've been

28:40

parked off to the side. And no

28:44

one in my office knows what's

28:44

going on for me. And it feels

28:46

like, okay, sometimes you don't

28:46

want to share your darkest

28:50

secrets with people that you

28:50

don't know that well. But your

28:53

manager needs to be trained in

28:53

this to that they understand

28:57

empathy, like we were just

28:57

talking about you were just

28:59

talking about, and how to

28:59

support someone because someone

29:04

in the organization needs to

29:04

know what's going on with Ursula

29:08

or Jeremy so that they can be

29:08

supported. Because you know, if

29:13

their work rates go down,

29:13

there's a reason behind it. And

29:16

it's not just about, you know,

29:16

putting on this mask that goes

29:20

into an office and you do your

29:20

job. And then you've parked your

29:25

emotions outside before you

29:25

walked in.

29:27

We're not robots, and you know what, we have robots to do robot jobs. We

29:29

need humans to do jobs, and we

29:33

need to own the whole human.

29:33

That is part of our workplace

29:37

Yeah. And I think that's so important. That's why I brought up because I think

29:39

organizations are an extension

29:42

of the community. Right? Even in

29:42

Murwillumbah way we live, you

29:46

know, there's a community with

29:46

bigger businesses and it's like,

29:50

how do we get that empathy

29:50

happening across those

29:52

businesses,

29:53

is part of you

29:53

know, your workplace or your

29:56

club is a big part of how you

29:56

belong. And if you're just

30:01

fitting in, if you're just

30:01

wearing the mask, if you're just

30:05

doing what it takes to fit in,

30:05

you're not belonging. Yeah, you

30:09

know, real belonging that really

30:09

enriches us, is who we really

30:16

are being accepted for who we

30:16

really are.

30:19

Yeah, I think it's really important.

30:21

And that word, I

30:21

really want to bring back that

30:23

word support. Because it's a,

30:23

it's a itchy topic for me the

30:27

word support, because so often,

30:27

support comes hand in hand with

30:32

that feeling of hierarchy.

30:32

You're needy, we'll help you

30:36

were better than you, you know,

30:36

and for all I have found

30:41

equality is 100%. The way to go

30:41

when we are offering support,

30:46

you know, the other thing about

30:46

support in the workplace, just

30:51

this sentence that you said

30:51

about, we need to know how to

30:53

support people. Do you have

30:53

ridiculous that is, yeah, that

30:57

we, as human beings, have

30:57

somehow lost the the

31:01

understanding of what are the

31:01

do's and don'ts of supporting

31:04

people?

31:05

They don't know.

31:05

I don't feel some people don't

31:08

know. Oh,

31:09

look, I

31:09

absolutely didn't know. And

31:11

I've, I've been on this learning

31:11

journey, looking up all of these

31:15

academic papers and a whole

31:15

bunch of things, you know, for

31:18

for a while trying to answer

31:18

that question. Well, what are

31:23

the wrong and right ways and oh,

31:23

I see where I went wrong. And

31:28

just owning that I did the best

31:28

I could with what I knew at the

31:31

time, the tools, the resources

31:31

that I had at the time, and we

31:34

are all doing the best we can

31:34

with the tools and resources

31:38

that we have. Unfortunately, for

31:38

most of us, they're not

31:42

sufficient.

31:43

Yeah, yeah. So

31:43

thanks for that. Now, one of the

31:48

things that I wanted to

31:48

highlight is that you are also

31:52

supported by the Family Center,

31:52

or auspiced. By the Family

31:58

Center. Yes, that's right. Yeah.

31:58

And how's that going? You what

32:02

I'm getting alluding to is, are

32:02

you needing more support in

32:05

terms of funding?

32:06

Oh, yes. Like

32:06

that. Okay, so to this point,

32:11

we've, we've had a couple of

32:11

lovely, generous donations from

32:14

members of the community, which

32:14

got us through the first few

32:18

months, and we had the Tweed

32:18

Byron Suicide Prevention

32:22

Project, which wraps up in June,

32:22

they've been supporting us

32:25

through, I became a trainer in

32:25

safe talk and assist, fully

32:30

sponsored by Tweed Byron Suicide

32:30

Prevention Project. And they

32:34

also supported me in the

32:34

development of the deep listener

32:39

concept, which has been amazing.

32:39

But the project is wrapping up

32:43

and the Family Center auspices

32:43

us, they give us a place to put

32:47

the money where you can have a

32:47

tax deductible donation receipt,

32:52

but they don't provide funding

32:52

for us. So yes, we were

32:56

certainly looking to the future

32:56

of, and would like, some support

33:01

to help us with the bits and

33:01

pieces. So, you know, providing

33:04

that training. And as long as I

33:04

am able to provide that training

33:07

for free, and the training I

33:07

mentioned before, is fully

33:10

subsidized by the Tweed Byron

33:10

Suicide Prevention Project at

33:14

this point. But as long as I can

33:14

keep doing that, then we can

33:18

keep boosting the level of those

33:18

skills and resources in the

33:23

community. Without us as people

33:23

who no one's got money, I mean,

33:28

some people do, but so many of

33:28

us just can't afford to, you

33:32

know, to do this training, but

33:32

the training is so valuable for

33:36

each person, it's a value to the

33:36

whole community.

33:39

Yeah, yeah. And,

33:39

and really, Ursula this has come

33:42

from your passion, or from a,

33:42

what I would say, a tragedy, but

33:49

you know, for a loss of Josh,

33:49

your son, or your turning around

33:53

and trying to do something for

33:53

our community, and the people in

33:58

the community so that we can

33:58

actually be better listeners and

34:04

support each other, which is

34:04

really important. So I would,

34:07

you know, be saying to that

34:07

people that are listening to

34:09

this podcast to support your

34:09

efforts, my giving a donation,

34:14

which is on the website as well,

34:14

I'll be putting up all those

34:17

details on our, on my show

34:17

notes. And also, is there

34:24

anything else in terms of you

34:24

know, we've we've focused on our

34:28

local area, but you know, as you

34:28

know, this is a Australia wide

34:32

worldwide issue. Absolutely.

34:32

anyone's having any issues, you

34:38

know, outside of our area. Who

34:38

can they contact? Is there

34:43

anything you can provide me that

34:43

I can put in Australian in the

34:47

notes? Yeah, I can talk to

34:49

I'll give you a list. I'm not very good at saying things off the top of my

34:50

head, but there's a beautiful

34:53

friends can't remember exactly

34:53

what it's called. But they have

34:59

a hotline, and they're peers,

34:59

which is beautiful and beyond

35:01

blue. They're all they're all

35:01

peers. Of course, there's

35:05

Lifeline, which has online and

35:05

SMS family support nowadays. And

35:11

there are different initiatives

35:11

popping up here and there, I've

35:14

actually designed deep listeners

35:14

in a way that is replicable. So

35:18

that we can begin to have nodes

35:18

in different communities. And

35:22

for this to grow, and part of my

35:22

plan is to make the online the

35:27

training online, so that no

35:27

matter where you are, that

35:30

you'll have to pay if you're,

35:30

you know, here, there and

35:32

everywhere to help support that.

35:32

But no matter where you are, you

35:36

can still gain those same deep

35:36

listening skills,

35:38

it's really

35:38

important that you can replicate

35:40

what you're, you know, doing.

35:40

And yeah, look, I want to thank

35:44

you. And I mean that really,

35:44

sincerely, I think you're doing

35:47

a great job, for our community.

35:47

And at large, hopefully this

35:53

will replicate throughout the

35:53

world. And we doing great things

35:57

for people because I really want

35:57

to see suicide be a subject that

36:02

we don't talk about in 20 years

36:02

time, because it doesn't exist

36:05

anymore. Yeah. But it'd be lovely to achieve that

36:07

and have that vision or hold

36:10

that vision, because I think

36:10

there are people there that need

36:13

as support as community.

36:16

Yeah, definitely. And I think it's possible to get very close to

36:17

eradicating suicide. There are

36:22

100 projects out there that have

36:22

have actually done that. So it's

36:26

really heartening to know that

36:26

we can, if we've got the will,

36:29

there is a way Yeah, yeah, yeah.

36:29

And deep listening is definitely

36:33

part of that.

36:33

Yep. So I will

36:33

advertise your courses and so

36:36

on, that are coming up. And

36:36

yeah, I might even do a promo

36:40

for you in the next month, as

36:40

well, just so that we can, we

36:43

can just get you know, people

36:43

more aware of what's available

36:46

for you. So thank you so much

36:46

Ursulka for sharing us a part of

36:52

your life and your project.

36:52

Thank you for being part of the

36:56

Beaming Green podcast. The music

36:56

for this podcast is produced by

37:01

Dave Weir now we need more

37:01

people to get onboard and raise

37:06

awareness about sustainability

37:06

and climate change. The more of

37:10

us that are shining the light on

37:10

these issues, the more

37:15

governments and business leaders

37:15

will listen. We would love you

37:21

to subscribe to our podcast, and

37:21

share and engage in social media

37:26

so that we can get some

37:26

tracksion lets to support one

37:30

another and envision a brighter

37:30

future. Thanks for listening.

37:34

See you next week.