Lisa Degrenia is a pastor living in Sarasota, Florida, who has a deep heart for helping people experience God in a direct, real way—"helping ordinary folks experience God for themselves," as she terms it.

In this episode, we discuss:

* What is means to have a "virtual faith"—one that is observed, not experienced—and how contemporary churches and spiritual practices unwittingly set us up for this

* What chili con carne and football have to do with Lisa's vision for what's possible for our experiences of God and faith instead

* The kinds of practices that can help us grow in our direct experiences of God

* The role that fear and pride play in keeping people from these direct experiences

* How Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and all the other figures in Scripture don't have a corner on the market with this

* Her heart for equipping people in the church to be hometown missionaries

Connect with Lisa on her website and on Instagram at @revlisad.

Connect with Christianne on Instagram at @christiannesquires or by subscribing to the Light Notes email list.

And consider applying to be a guest on the show! Fill out the guest application form here.