0:01

Welcome to the

0:01

bear with me podcast where we

0:04

aim to integrate belief and

0:04

practice in the Christian life

0:17

All right, Ron.

0:17

Great. And it's 2023 It is.

0:22

Yeah. This is our first one of

0:22

2023. Wow, it's

0:25

towards the end

0:25

of the month. Yeah. Cool.

0:29

Yeah. All right.

0:29

We're back. Yeah, that matters

0:32

now. And we're the we're gonna

0:32

finish the long anticipated long

0:37

expected, long awaited. I

0:37

picture people waiting by their

0:42

relative podcast platforms for

0:42

this episode. Part two, right,

0:46

part two of intro to spiritual

0:46

direction. Yes. Featuring

0:51

Vanessa Caruso.

0:52

Thank you for being so concerned about bringing this to completion,

0:54

Andy. I didn't imagine people

0:58

refreshing their podcast.

1:01

Positive that's

1:01

what's happening. Okay, well, we

1:04

very much relieved to hear it is

1:04

downloaded. Listen to this

1:08

episode. Right. So where are we?

1:08

You were listening to the part

1:12

one on the way in this morning?

1:12

Yeah. So recap for us what,

1:16

where we're at and what we need to do next. Great.

1:18

So part one

1:18

about spiritual direction was an

1:21

intro to spiritual direction.

1:21

And this one, I wanted to make a

1:27

little bit more about the

1:27

logistics like how do I find a

1:30

spiritual director? And what can

1:30

I expect in a spiritual

1:33

direction, relationship or

1:33

session in particular? So just

1:38

to recap, spiritual direction,

1:38

the name is a little bit

1:43

problematic the term just

1:43

because it sounds like you're

1:46

going to get direction, like,

1:46

what should I do? Should I go

1:50

back to college? Or should I

1:50

quit my job?

1:53

A lot of people want to know those kinds of things they do might be

1:54

disappointed when they go to Yeah, and they don't get the

1:56

direction. Don't

1:58

get that advice,

1:58

or the like, do this, right. So

2:03

not the most helpful term may,

2:03

especially

2:05

in our day and age

2:05

where there's too many options.

2:08

There's Andy,

2:08

there's so many options, so many

2:11

good. Go to a spiritual

2:11

director, they're not going to

2:13

tell me what to do now,

2:13

unfortunately. Okay. So doing a

2:17

spiritual direction is helping

2:17

someone pay attention to God's

2:21

personal communication to them.

2:24

So God can tell

2:24

him a physical so let's go back

2:27

to college.

2:27

Yes. And that's

2:27

a spiritual action as far as

2:30

making that space in your

2:30

schedule. Okay. All right, to to

2:35

start putting the clues

2:35

together, about how God is

2:39

leading you. What God's opening

2:39

up for you. Why are you smiling?

2:42

Because

2:43

I was picturing

2:43

myself, like, being a new kind

2:45

of spiritual direction that just

2:45

people come and pay. And I tell

2:48

them exactly what

2:50

it would be amazing.

2:52

Like people would

2:52

some people would love that, oh,

2:54

that's what they need. You know,

2:55

Andy, I actually

2:55

think that would be a great,

2:58

there should be like, one week

2:58

of the month, where spiritual

3:01

directors are just like, eff it.

3:01

I'm just gonna, like, be as

3:05

honest as possible. This is

3:07

what you need to

3:07

do. Yes. Yeah. Okay. But that's

3:10

not that might be what people

3:10

are wanting, yes, or what people

3:15

are needing,

3:16

right. And

3:16

actually, in long term, it's

3:21

really empowering to be able to

3:21

find that we have a wisdom

3:28

within us from the Holy Spirit,

3:28

about what to do in our lives.

3:33

So it's like that teach a person

3:33

to fish versus fishing for them

3:37

personally, to

3:37

LISTEN to the Spirit. Yeah. And

3:40

act. It needs

3:41

space and time, though. That's something we're short on as people right now.

3:43

You know, so that hour a month,

3:49

it seems like a lot to like pay

3:49

to go talk to someone about your

3:52

relationship with God. At the

3:52

end of the day, 60 minutes a

3:55

month, sometimes is the most

3:55

that you actually pause and open

4:04

and, and admit and talk about

4:04

what's really going on. So

4:10

spiritual direction is, is about

4:10

moving from just talking about

4:14

God or thinking about God or all

4:14

those one days, one day, I'll

4:18

have a meditation practice one

4:18

day, I'll do this or that it's

4:22

it's really a space to

4:22

experience God and to reflect on

4:30

our experience of God in everyday life.

4:32

So maybe if you're

4:32

someone who has an idea of

4:39

engaging the spiritual

4:39

disciplines, for example, like I

4:41

want to be better at listening

4:41

to hearing recognizing, hearing

4:45

and listening to God's voice in

4:45

my life. Yeah, but maybe for

4:49

whatever reason, the bar of

4:49

beginning that practice really

4:53

knowing how to start, but if you

4:53

set aside time in your calendar

4:56

and you put a little bit of money aside, you're putting resources there, then you're at

4:58

least is guaranteeing one hour a

5:01

month? Yes. Or whatever the

5:01

rhythm is? Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna

5:06

do this, I'm gonna learn from

5:06

someone else. How to begin to do

5:09

some of these practices?

5:10

Yeah, yeah.

5:10

Yeah, it's kind of baseline, if,

5:14

if there's nothing else, there's

5:14

that, but the nature of it is

5:17

that, you know, you, you, you

5:17

think about what came up in that

5:22

spiritual direction session for

5:22

the rest of the month. I love

5:26

doing special direction in

5:26

person because the drive to or

5:30

the walk to direction

5:30

appointment and the walker drive

5:36

or bike home from that

5:36

appointment, that like

5:39

integrating time. And that

5:39

reflection time is just so

5:43

valuable. So that's even better

5:43

than zoom, where you can like be

5:46

doing something and then a

5:46

minute later, you can log on.

5:48

And then the minute after you

5:48

log off, you like move on to

5:52

your email. So just setting

5:52

aside that time, it's kind of

5:56

like an hour and a half in

5:56

Victoria, to have an hour long

5:59

session. 15 minutes there, 15

5:59

minutes back, that does a lot

6:03

for the rest of the week, which

6:03

can change the month in terms of

6:08

your awareness of God in in your

6:08

true real, everyday life. Yeah.

6:15

So that's why people might want

6:15

to go is to reflect on their

6:19

experience of God in everyday life.

6:22

Okay, so you've

6:22

recapped where we are. Now, I

6:26

think you wanted to talk about a

6:26

couple of things, including, how

6:29

do you find? How do you go about

6:29

beginning to find a spiritual

6:33

director?

6:34

Yeah, I have a

6:34

sense that people are curious

6:37

about spiritual direction, but

6:37

don't know where to start. So

6:41

that if you're listening, and

6:41

you're interested, or you have a

6:44

friend who meets with a

6:44

spiritual director, and you're

6:46

like, Hmm, you know, I didn't

6:46

used to feel a desire for that.

6:50

But for some reason, I'm kind of

6:50

drawn to it. But I don't know

6:53

where to start. Here are some

6:53

good places to start. One would

6:57

be to pray about it, not just

6:57

because that's the Christian

7:00

answer. But to actually just

7:00

name out loud or in writing,

7:06

while you're driving. Or, right

7:06

now, when you're thinking about

7:11

it, like God, I do want

7:11

something more, and I don't know

7:16

where to start, I'm opening

7:16

myself up to you to help me find

7:23

a way to meet with one, or, you

7:23

know, I just I want to meet with

7:28

one and I might want to meet

7:28

with the right one for me. So

7:31

I'm admitting that to you that

7:31

desire. So that's a great place

7:35

to start even doing that is kind

7:35

of doing something. And then

7:39

asking someone who might know

7:39

spiritual directors would be the

7:44

next place. So a friend that

7:44

meets with one a pastor, every

7:49

pastor has a sense of people who

7:49

are either like spiritual

7:54

directors, or

7:54

would I know at least one spiritual director, do you? Yeah, yeah.

7:57

And then that spiritual director that you know, can help find them, refer

7:59

them to someone who might be a

8:03

good fit. So that's the best way

8:03

is just like talk to someone you

8:08

know, who meets with one or

8:08

knows one. And then know that

8:11

contacting that spiritual

8:11

director doesn't mean you have

8:13

to meet with them. There's

8:13

always a consultation, like a

8:17

phone call, or zoom, or a coffee

8:17

meeting, where you get to know

8:20

each other and the spiritual

8:20

director will be happy to

8:23

connect you with someone who might be a better fit, whether that's a different gender, a

8:25

different faith, tradition, or

8:29

denomination, someone who may be

8:29

you to know each other a bit.

8:33

And so it would be better for

8:33

the person to meet with someone

8:36

kind of outside your circle. So

8:36

they can help refer you to that.

8:40

But there's also these networks.

8:40

So there's like the directors of

8:44

color network. There's the

8:44

transforming center in Chicago

8:48

has a great referral list. So on

8:48

my website, but I can post them

8:53

to bear with me, there are links

8:53

to some of these networks, you

8:58

know, you can you can have like

8:58

an evangelical Network of

9:01

Spiritual directors. And then if

9:01

you're, especially if you're

9:04

willing to meet over zoom, you

9:04

can definitely do your research

9:10

and see who seems like they

9:10

might be a good fit for me. So

9:14

that's another way to go.

9:17

Okay, so you got

9:17

some links in our in our

9:20

definitely comment section or

9:20

notes section on the podcast to

9:24

get people started. Or to ask

9:24

around word of mouth with a

9:28

pastor or someone you trust or a

9:28

friend? Yeah. Great.

9:32

Great. And then

9:32

a few of the logistics. So yeah,

9:37

you'll definitely want like a

9:37

meeting with the potential

9:40

director, whether that's over

9:40

the phone, zoom or in person.

9:44

And one thing to look for is to

9:44

see if they did any training and

9:50

spiritual direction if they if

9:50

they carry that title. They

9:54

probably did. But I think that's

9:54

important. And part of it is

10:01

that that means that they abide

10:01

by a code of ethics, and

10:05

probably that they're in a

10:05

regular form of supervision,

10:09

which means there's another pair

10:09

of eyes on their ministry of

10:11

spiritual direction. So those

10:11

are some of the professional

10:14

attributes that I that I find

10:14

important. So that was wise.

10:19

Yeah, those are some, a few

10:19

things to consider. And

10:23

like, someone just

10:23

opening up once a month and

10:27

telling people what to do, for example,

10:29

yeah. Like what

10:29

you want to avoid that? Yeah,

10:32

unless, I don't know, I'd be

10:32

curious to do that with you.

10:35

I'll try it, we'll try it, we'll see what comes up.

10:38

We should do an

10:38

Ask me anything, or not. Okay,

10:43

so, but some of the like, nuts

10:43

and bolts, the typical rhythm of

10:48

spiritual direction is once a

10:48

month, for an hour. There's

10:53

typically a covenant to sign. A

10:53

lot of directors call them

10:57

covenants rather than contracts.

10:57

But it's a description of what

11:00

spiritual direction is about.

11:00

And it names some of the the

11:04

typical boundaries of spiritual

11:04

direction, the fee, the

11:08

expectations in terms of

11:08

communication, if you have a

11:11

therapist, and then names the

11:11

mandated reporting, as a lay

11:18

minister, which spiritual

11:18

directors are. So that's one

11:22

thing to pay attention to, in

11:22

spiritual direction is that

11:25

there is a lot of overlap with

11:25

therapy or counseling. But most

11:29

spiritual directors aren't

11:29

trained in that. So they'll want

11:33

to know if you do meet with one.

11:33

And if you don't meet with one,

11:36

and if it, it seems like

11:36

they're, you might be benefited

11:42

from meeting with one, that's

11:42

something that they might ask

11:44

about or bring up, in addition,

11:44

but it's not a replacement for

11:48

counseling. That all makes

11:48

sense, I'm guessing, a typical

11:52

fee. So some spiritual directors

11:52

don't charge which is really

11:58

beautiful. Because it's

11:58

understood as a charism of the

12:01

spirit, like being someone who

12:01

can accompany you to become your

12:06

true self in God and respond

12:06

with creative, courageous

12:10

integrity to God's call on your

12:10

life. So people are like, I'm

12:14

not charging money for that. And

12:14

so you definitely can find

12:18

people who don't most, I would

12:18

say, have a sliding scale. So

12:23

between 40 and 80, I would think

12:23

is a typical amount per session.

12:29

Yeah, per session. So once a

12:29

month, yeah, and that would be

12:32

per hour. And then some just

12:32

have a standalone fee. But you

12:38

can always ask about whether

12:38

there's a sliding scale and

12:41

leave it up to them to decide

12:41

that. Regular, what does a

12:47

typical session entail? I might

12:47

have said this in the other one,

12:50

but it looks from the outside of

12:50

someone who's watching, it would

12:56

look like a conversation between

12:56

two people, for sure. Except

12:59

there is more space for silence.

12:59

So they're, you know, the direct

13:05

D sometimes will have their eyes

13:05

closed and kind of be going

13:09

inside to check in with God and

13:09

themselves about whatever it is

13:14

they're talking about. So

13:14

there's all these invitations to

13:16

pause in the session,

13:18

when you're

13:18

learning to listen. Yes to do

13:21

the practice that. Yeah.

13:24

So it looks like

13:24

a normal conversation except for

13:27

that contemplative part. And

13:27

then the other main part is the

13:33

evocative questions. So instead

13:33

of like, should I go back to

13:38

school? Or should I stick with

13:38

my job? Instead of kind of

13:43

answering that or problem

13:43

solving that the director would

13:46

ask questions that help you

13:46

explore more? where God is

13:53

leading you in that area?

13:55

Yeah. Seems like a

13:55

dimension of it is just like a

14:00

little bit of in the best way,

14:00

like a little bit of hand

14:04

holding as you pay attention to

14:04

your own questions, thoughts,

14:07

feelings about things? Because I

14:07

think a lot of us lack

14:10

confidence to think that they

14:10

mean anything. Yeah, definitely.

14:14

It's just the chaos of feelings

14:14

inside and contradictory desires

14:18

and stuff. But having someone

14:18

come alongside and give credence

14:22

like, no, no, pay attention to

14:22

that. What's that saying about

14:25

what you want or what you need?

14:25

Or what maybe what God's

14:27

speaking to you or clarifying

14:27

things? Can I think, maybe in

14:31

the early stages of our

14:31

spiritual development be really

14:33

helpful.

14:34

It's some it's

14:34

totally that hand holding is

14:38

kind of a nice idea. You don't

14:38

actually hold hands that piece,

14:42

you know,

14:43

I'm sure there's probably in the world of spiritual direction. I bet

14:45

somebody somewhere you're right,

14:48

like on a bench

14:48

maybe. But otherwise,

14:52

probably not

14:52

typical. Yeah. No, it's not.

14:54

Don't expect that.

14:55

No, sometimes I

14:55

say a lot in a spiritual

14:58

direction session. As a

14:58

director, you Sometimes they say

15:01

very little, because just a

15:01

person having space to hear

15:06

themselves, you know, like, I

15:06

generally leave a good pause

15:11

after someone says something,

15:11

just to see if there's more and

15:14

often, they'll keep talking.

15:14

They'll Yeah. And they'll keep

15:19

going, you know. But sometimes

15:19

they do interrupt. Let's say

15:24

they're like, keep going in so

15:24

many directions. And it's like,

15:27

well, we're going to cover a lot

15:27

of ground, but not necessarily

15:31

go deeper into this thing that

15:31

seemed like it was pretty

15:33

important. Like you sounded like

15:33

you got a little bit choked up.

15:37

When you named that, can we go

15:37

back to that? So that's the

15:41

directing part is like, I'm

15:41

going to try to discern what,

15:46

what seems important to you and

15:46

what you were,

15:49

like, learning and

15:49

take ourselves more seriously. I

15:53

love that out of this seems

15:53

like, yeah, kind of getting

15:57

started with this.

15:59

Yeah. So the

15:59

last thing would be, what do you

16:03

talk about? What do you bring?

16:05

What do you talk about?

16:07

So you talk

16:07

about anything that's going on

16:10

in your life, I mean, you can be

16:10

a little bit more direct about

16:15

it. And, you know, keep a

16:15

journal or a notepad, the week

16:20

before spiritual direction, a

16:20

couple days before your first

16:23

spiritual direction,

16:23

appointment. And just take notes

16:26

of some of the honest things you

16:26

find yourself thinking about

16:29

wondering about and feeling, you

16:29

could jot down dreams that you

16:34

have, as you have them, you

16:34

know, like, wow, that was a

16:36

weird dream, I don't know what

16:36

I'm gonna do with that. And

16:42

anything about your awareness of

16:42

God in everyday life, or your

16:49

the sense of distance or absence

16:49

of God, or confusion about how

16:54

this actually a relationship

16:54

with God actually plays out in

16:57

daily life, then you could just

16:57

open your notebook, if you want

17:00

to that way and just say, Okay,

17:00

here's like, 10 things that

17:03

happened this week. And then you

17:03

could read them all. And then we

17:07

could say, I wonder which one

17:07

should start with a

17:10

spiritual

17:10

director, a good spiritual

17:12

director, would assume that God

17:12

is always present. And so

17:17

there's no data piece that's

17:17

particularly necessarily

17:21

irrelevant. Totally. I think

17:21

that's when when we're

17:27

individual and trying to make

17:27

sense of our life. That's,

17:31

that's a harder assumption to

17:31

have often, yeah. But to have

17:34

someone come along and say, No,

17:34

don't ignore that. Let's, you

17:39

know, you've got the whole thing

17:39

we were talking about in the

17:43

Beatitudes series that we're

17:43

going through right now, how the

17:46

whole realm of emotions, not

17:46

just the happy positive

17:50

emotions, but you read through

17:50

the Psalms, all the realm of

17:54

emotions, including sadness, and

17:54

anger, and confusion, and just

18:01

constellation those are all data

18:01

points are relevant to

18:07

understanding God's work in our

18:07

life. And that's, I think, part

18:12

of the learning that can happen,

18:12

right? In terms of, okay, this

18:17

negative thing that I want to

18:17

associate with having nothing to

18:19

do with my relationship with God

18:19

might be telling me something

18:23

important about who God is, and

18:23

God's presence in my life.

18:29

And yeah, I love

18:29

that data point is such a

18:31

helpful idea. Anything can be a

18:31

data point, it feels a bit like

18:36

a spoke of a wheel. Like if

18:36

God's at the center of that

18:41

wheel, any of those spokes, you

18:41

can start with somebody

18:43

who's just had a little bit of a critical distance from you just to kind

18:45

of be able to helpfully pull

18:49

some of those things out or draw

18:49

attention to them. Where are you

18:53

gonna we kind of get stuck in

18:53

our own thoughts or in our own

18:57

patterns and don't don't ascribe

18:57

as much attention to it. That

19:00

can be really helpful.

19:01

Totally. And as

19:01

you said that I thought, if

19:04

spiritual direction feels a bit

19:04

intimidating or too far away,

19:08

you can do this with a friend.

19:08

You know, you I remember having

19:13

an assignment, probably in

19:13

spiritual formation, where I had

19:18

to find someone where we did 20

19:18

minutes each. So I talked for 20

19:24

minutes. Yeah. And they can't

19:24

say anything to me, except for

19:27

Listen, timer goes off. They

19:27

talk for 20 minutes. I can't say

19:31

anything to them or listen,

19:31

within 45 minutes. Both of you

19:34

have shared but you can't. You

19:34

can't respond, encourage, say

19:39

like, oh, it's not a big deal, or I would have done the same thing or, Wow, you really need

19:41

to do something about that.

19:44

Yeah. So that. That's basically

19:44

it too, if you just wanted to go

19:48

that route.

19:49

Yeah. No, I think that's important to say because I think my my suspicion is along

19:51

with professional counseling, in

19:58

spiritual direction, too. like

19:58

two different disciplines, but

20:02

some overlap there is that these

20:02

are things that we're does were

20:07

friendships were designed for.

20:07

But in a lot of ways, our

20:11

friendships are. So I don't know

20:11

impoverished and a lot of ways

20:18

that we have not become we've

20:18

failed at becoming good

20:21

listeners to one another that

20:21

these have had to become

20:24

professionalized. And, yeah. And

20:24

so, yeah, I think the vision of

20:32

God's Kingdom is, really, this

20:32

is what spiritual friendship is

20:36

all about is listening. Well,

20:36

drawing attention to what God

20:40

might be speaking in one

20:40

another's lives. And so I think

20:43

we're just talking about

20:43

formalizing that a bit in a

20:47

context where that can be hard

20:47

to come by sometimes.

20:53

And I love what

20:53

you said about taking ourselves

20:56

seriously. It could be that you

20:56

go to spiritual direction for a

21:01

season, and you just kind of

21:01

learned to take yourself

21:04

seriously and God in your life

21:04

seriously. And then you have

21:08

kind of confidence to do that in

21:08

a DNA type group or small group

21:15

or with a group of friends or

21:15

something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

21:20

That's all I had for the

21:20

logistics of spiritual

21:23

direction. Do you have any more

21:23

questions? No,

21:26

that's good. So what's next

21:28

for us?

21:29

Oh, bear with any

21:29

direction. Oh, that's it. That's

21:32

it. You got it?

21:32

Yeah. I mean, I

21:32

think those are the basics.

21:34

Yeah, that's

21:35

part two. Well, we covered a lot of ground.

21:37

Yeah, we did. Okay.

21:39

So okay, then

21:39

what's next for bear with me?

21:42

Right. That's what we're talking about. That's

21:43

what I was thinking.

21:45

So Vanessa has

21:45

been flirting with another

21:50

podcast. It's true. And I just

21:50

found out about it. Yep. The

21:55

other day. And so we're having a

21:55

to find the relationship podcast

22:01

right here right now. In real

22:01

time. Yeah. What are we doing

22:04

next? Yeah. Is this the end? No, can

22:06

we just take a break? Okay, it's

22:07

gonna take a break. And we're gonna reevaluate and take a couple

22:08

months. Yeah, off. While you

22:12

kind of help with this other

22:12

podcasts? Yeah. And then we're

22:15

gonna come back and chat and see

22:15

if we can continue on. So we're

22:20

giving you a warning. Don't wait

22:20

by your podcast platform for a

22:24

couple of months. But come back

22:24

and check. Yes. And we'll

22:28

communicate something. Yes, we

22:28

will. Even if it's like a short

22:33

two minute. Hey, just kidding.

22:33

We're gonna take another couple

22:35

of months. But we'll let you

22:35

know. We will, one of us will.

22:38

And, or maybe we'll be back in a

22:38

whole new round of things. But

22:43

if you're, as always, if you got

22:43

some ideas for you like to hear

22:47

Vanessa and Andy debate, like we

22:47

do or argue over some topic,

22:51

just send us send us a note.

22:51

Bear with me at table church.ca.

22:56

Or if you think we should just

22:56

stop? Yeah, if you've had enough

22:59

and you feel like, let's end on

22:59

a high note. Yeah. If this is

23:02

one, then just let us know. Just

23:02

finished quit while you're

23:06

straight. Yeah.

23:08

We'll take it. We'll take the feedback. Yeah. Great.

23:12

And I, you know,

23:12

at some point, I wanted to

23:15

reflect on what we learned,

23:15

learned about doing this podcast

23:20

in a way that hopefully would be

23:20

helpful for other people to

23:23

reflect on why do we do new

23:23

things? And what is it about

23:27

having a conversation, kind of

23:27

in real time about what's really

23:31

going on? In US and in our

23:31

lives, which is very spiritual

23:34

directory? what that's been like

23:34

for us, because it has been

23:39

really good. Yeah. So maybe

23:39

that's coming.

23:42

That's good. Yeah.

23:42

Oh, and because I anticipate

23:44

people are probably wondering, but the other podcast you're doing, can you share?

23:47

Yes, it's called

23:47

Three Association. And it's

23:50

about spiritual direction. So

23:50

it's three of us supervisors

23:54

talking about different topics

23:54

for about a half an hour, each

23:59

episode that are relevant for

23:59

spiritual directors. So

24:03

it's kind of to

24:03

kind of resource existing

24:06

spiritual directors within the

24:06

network that you work with.

24:08

Yeah. So it's kind of a targeted

24:08

focus podcast. Yeah. And you're

24:12

gonna work on that because they're gonna batch a bunch together over the next couple

24:13

months. So that's gonna be your focus. And then you might have a

24:15

bit of time for that. We'll come

24:17

back and, and reevaluate.

24:17

Exactly great. Okay, I'm not too

24:21

threatened by that.

24:22

Okay. Yeah, I'm

24:22

glad we talked about it. Okay,

24:26

but Andy, I wanted to know, Oh,

24:26

right. But I have mine. So you

24:30

can think about it. I want to

24:30

know something that you're

24:32

excited about or where you're

24:32

experiencing

24:35

inspiration. Yeah.

24:35

Excited or inspired by you go

24:38

first. Okay.

24:39

Okay. So you can

24:39

think about it. Okay. I already

24:41

told you about we're going to

24:41

Disneyland. Right. This weekend.

24:47

Lucky Disney. Yes.

24:47

Because what's the occasion?

24:51

My birthday?

24:51

Wow. Yeah. But it's sort of

24:53

because I have a nine year old

24:53

you know, I wouldn't normally do

24:56

this.

24:57

Stephen going now.

25:00

Now, but that's

25:00

what I'm actually excited about.

25:02

I had a friend say

25:04

like the Did you

25:04

ever watch Jim Gaffigan? Yeah,

25:07

medium. Yeah, it remember this

25:07

bit about? Some adults just go

25:11

to Disneyland by themselves. I

25:11

don't remember the old weirdos.

25:14

Okay. Exactly.

25:14

That's what I think about it.

25:19

Like, I really think like, oh,

25:19

I'm to something for Disneyland.

25:24

Yeah, I'm just going for the

25:24

kid.

25:26

I could see myself

25:26

going as an adult by myself. You

25:29

can. But I, but it would be

25:29

weird.

25:34

But I so I have

25:34

this group. Group, spiritual

25:38

direction group. Yeah. And one

25:38

of them. So I said, Oh, can we

25:41

move our group? Because I'm actually going to be in Disneyland. Sorry, you know. And

25:43

so somebody wrote back and was

25:48

like, Well, I can't wait to, to

25:48

hear how you find God at

25:52

Disneyland. Or like, how you

25:52

look forgot it, doesn't it? And

25:55

I thought, I love doing those

25:55

guides. Now I want to do a guide

25:59

about how to find God at

25:59

Disneyland. Okay, that's

26:02

actually what it involves Mickey

26:02

Mouse, I probably okay. So I'm

26:06

not going to do the guide before

26:06

I go. Because I don't know.

26:08

Right. But I'm going to go on

26:08

this whole trip. Yes. I'm going

26:11

to be reflecting on your work

26:11

expense. Yeah. And don't you

26:15

think there are people in the

26:15

world who would like a

26:18

reflection guide about how to

26:18

find God at Disneyland? So

26:21

that's what's going to be happening in my head that has made me so excited for

26:23

Disneyland. Is, is God here? Is

26:27

that even possible? They made 27

26:27

point 4 billion in revenue last

26:33

year.

26:33

So as the land

26:33

Yes, just as just the just not

26:36

Disney World? Disneyland?

26:37

I don't know.

26:37

Doesn't matter. I don't know.

26:40

Because someone else said that a

26:40

large number Disney made 27

26:43

point 4 billion. Should should

26:43

any any group have that much

26:47

money? No. So I feel conflicted

26:47

about that. Like, do I want to

26:51

be then the next $300? Yeah,

26:51

that pours into something like

26:56

that. So it's a very conflicted

26:56

place. I mean, it's supposed to

27:00

be like a marketing, genius

27:00

marketing situation in terms of

27:05

how much it makes you spend and

27:05

want to buy while you're there.

27:09

I don't like any of that. Like

27:09

in terms of James Smith's

27:12

liturgies. I am very suspect

27:12

about the Disney liturgy and

27:17

what it's communicating and what

27:17

it's getting. But I want to see

27:21

if God's there, and I feel like

27:21

God might be there. God was

27:25

there for you and Emmett. And

27:25

your family.

27:28

It was pretty special. Yes.

27:31

So see.

27:33

Okay, next. All

27:33

right. Well, maybe we'll we will

27:36

have a debrief about this

27:36

sometime in the future. Okay, on

27:38

this very podcast, God

27:40

can be at Disneyland, maybe God can be anywhere. That's also one of my

27:41

questions.

27:44

We have a Somis

27:44

would say, you know, If I ascend

27:46

to the heights of the heavens,

27:46

or if I shall have dizzy or if I

27:50

find in Disneyland, behold,

27:50

you're there. Yeah, included.

27:56

Okay, all right. Well, we'll be

27:56

interested to see the thing I

27:59

thought of as I really got into

27:59

this content of the player by

28:02

Thomas Merton, how cool is

28:02

really short it's like the last

28:05

thing he wrote before he before

28:05

he died, but I'm only a few

28:08

chapters in but just really

28:08

trying to you know, just immerse

28:15

myself slowly in every chapter

28:15

is just a lot in there. I think

28:19

the even the opening line of, of

28:19

the first chapter, the climate

28:27

in which monastic prayer flowers

28:27

is that of the desert? Well,

28:32

where the calm comfort of men is

28:32

absent, where the secure

28:37

routines of Man City offer no

28:37

support, and we're prayer must

28:40

be sustained by God in the

28:40

purity of faith. Wow. Yeah,

28:43

that's

28:43

thick. That is

28:43

like three sentences, maybe less

28:47

and not as thick. You're right.

28:48

Yeah, it's three

28:48

commas one sentence, right?

28:52

I love the

28:52

flower that blooms in the

28:55

desert.

28:56

But it just, I mean, I think it reinforces what we're just talking about, about

28:58

this. Maybe it's our cultural

29:03

the cultural assumption I've

29:03

grown up with is associating

29:07

connection with God with

29:07

positive feelings kind of this

29:09

spiritual high and like not to

29:09

take away from that because I

29:13

think that's one dimension of

29:13

it, but it's just this narrow

29:15

dimension. And that even that

29:15

this person who's dedicated a

29:21

lot of his life to prayer is

29:21

saying now the the right climate

29:25

is the is the one that we're

29:25

you're dislocated, where

29:28

there's, you're disoriented

29:28

where there isn't the things you

29:31

can rely on. And I think it made

29:31

me reflect on the spiritual

29:35

disciplines as what are the

29:35

spiritual disciplines aren't

29:39

designed primarily to make you

29:39

more spiritual, but to reveal

29:44

your poverty. And that's why

29:44

they're so hard.

29:50

This is all

29:50

going through the tracks and

29:52

this

29:52

is all going through the Beatitudes stuff because the first one is blessed

29:54

are the spiritually impoverished

29:57

because the Father is pleased to

29:57

give the kingdom to such as

30:00

these, and so everything keeps

30:00

going back to this. What is it?

30:06

What are the experience in life

30:06

actually, that have socially

30:08

with these negative feelings

30:08

like, wow, the spiritual poverty

30:11

Wow, I'm not what I thought it

30:11

could be or what I thought I was

30:14

or I'm more broken than I

30:14

thought or I'm more dislocated

30:17

than I thought or whatever. But

30:17

these are the very things that

30:21

reveal the need. That birth is

30:21

prayer in us.

30:24

Oh my gosh, excuse

30:26

me, save me help

30:26

me this the cry of the soul is

30:29

straight, which is what Merton

30:29

talks about a lot in his his

30:32

book. Wow. Anyway, I know. It's

30:32

a weird thing to be excited

30:36

about. It just sort of opened up

30:36

another dimension of spiritual

30:38

life for me. That's been

30:38

illuminating. That's all Wow.

30:45

And yeah, I love

30:45

that. We could do an episode on

30:48

that.

30:49

After Disneyland. Okay.

30:50

Yeah, the two

30:50

together. Wow. God is in the

30:55

desert and at Disney. Disney

31:05

okay, yes, it's

31:06

been a pleasure.

31:06

Thank you. Thank you. Good wrap

31:09

up a part two. And we'll check

31:09

in. Thanks, everybody. Hi,

31:16

everyone.