0:03

Check it down, man, now

0:08

down. Then it's

0:11

the beating of the book podcast Kill Alexander.

0:13

Hope you're doing well. I hope you're staying safe,

0:16

having fun as much as you can

0:18

during this strange time in our lives. Thanks

0:20

for tuning in again today. I hope you liked our

0:22

last podcast, the Tennis Betting Masterclass

0:25

with Dan Weston. Today, I continue

0:28

what has really been a treat during this

0:30

surreal time, a series

0:33

of profiles of not just

0:35

professional betters, but all kinds of people who inhabit

0:38

this industry of ours, from

0:40

Alan Boston to Rufus Peabody,

0:43

Alan Dakinson, Captain Jack Andrews,

0:45

Dr Bob Ray Marino from Bookmaker.

0:48

I think I got everybody and there maybe I

0:50

left somebody out, but I just appreciate

0:52

it. So grateful for the time that

0:55

everybody has so generously given and the insights

0:57

that have been provided today on the show.

1:00

Oh Spanky, who

1:02

definitely inhabits a unique

1:04

place in the sports betting ecosystem. Spanky

1:06

was kind enough to sit down for over an

1:08

hour when you include commercials, won't be

1:11

quite that long here, but over an hour

1:13

with me to talk about his

1:15

experience, what shaped him as

1:17

a better and just how unique

1:19

his entire approaches. I think you'll

1:21

find an insightful lots

1:24

of reaction to this one. At first aired

1:26

on the Numbers Game at Visa. If you haven't had a chance,

1:29

enjoy it right here, right now on the Beating

1:31

the Book podcast, Spanky,

1:36

It's a numbers game with your

1:39

host, Jil Alexander untold

1:42

juniors to believe in Adam Lives. It

1:44

is the Numbers Game right here at Visa, the Vegas Dads

1:46

and Information Network. Good

1:49

morning to you Serious x M Channel two

1:51

O four, Visa dot Com, the Visa Apps,

1:53

Fobo slaying at Game Plus. Right here at

1:55

the Sports Fitting Network, it is Gil Alexander,

1:57

Live in the Bay, Live at San Francisco.

2:00

Hope you stay It's safe. I hope you're staying

2:02

well for the

2:04

balance of the show today.

2:07

It's a continuation of what I've tried to

2:09

do during this pandemic, because, honestly,

2:11

if not now when getting

2:13

to profile um

2:15

some of the people that interest me in

2:17

this business, some legends, some

2:20

modern day guys who have

2:23

a place in the sports

2:25

betting ecosystem. Rufus Peabody,

2:27

Captain Jack Andrews, Allen Boston

2:30

Bob Stole. Last week Ray Marino

2:32

from Bookmaker was on. So this

2:34

has been an absolute pleasure to do this, trying

2:37

to make lemonade out of lemons

2:39

here during the strange time in our lives. Today

2:42

that series continues, and I talked about the

2:44

sports betting ecosystem. He definitely has

2:47

a unique spot in the

2:49

sports betting ecosystem for reasons

2:51

that will become a parent as

2:53

we have our discussion today, Uh, not without

2:55

controversy. We'll get into some of that as well.

2:58

Uh. And he goes by the name of Spanky.

3:00

Spanky from somewhere in New Jersey.

3:02

There, Spanky, thank you so much for doing this, Thanks

3:05

for being on the show. Great to see you man there

3:07

you are, Thanks for having me to go there. I am.

3:09

How you doing, brother, I'm doing very

3:11

well. Man. Let's start as I do

3:13

with uh with everybody. Well, first of all,

3:16

I just called you Spanky. Obviously that's

3:18

not the name of your birth certificate. How did

3:20

you get that name? Spanky? You

3:23

know, so growing up, my mother was a big fan of

3:25

Little rascals, and um, I was kind of always

3:27

getting into trouble. So she

3:29

just decided, you know, I kind of called

3:32

me spanking, and then that was my password, um,

3:34

when I was betting all these years offshore. So

3:37

when ever i'd call in the sports book, you know, my

3:39

six to three spanky, one one six

3:41

spanky. So then they, you know, guys

3:44

would just say, hey, what do you need spanking? And then it just stuck

3:46

where people just started, uh just

3:48

called me by my password, and um,

3:51

you know it's stuck since. Yeah,

3:53

I I thought it would have some little rascals origin

3:55

originally. So let's start.

3:57

Let's start as we do with everybody here. Uh,

4:00

your first First of all, where'd you grow up,

4:02

your first experiences, uh

4:05

with betting, How that inspired

4:08

you, how that shaped you? Let's start at the beginning.

4:11

Yeah, so you know I went, I grew up in Jersey City,

4:13

New Jersey. Um, and uh,

4:16

you know I always liked sports growing up. I was

4:18

always a big fan. Um when it comes

4:20

to betting. I would you know, play paul A cards,

4:23

um and you know the football tickets

4:26

and um, I would run Parley cards for a bookmaker

4:28

out of Hoboken for a little bit. So

4:30

um. And you know, you know you start learning

4:33

kind of early on that it's it's so much better

4:35

to be the house and that kind of business.

4:38

Um, so you know, I realized that, you

4:40

know a very few people went on these parlor a cards, you

4:43

know. The bookmaker then and Hoboken would say,

4:45

let's not give you a cut. You just helped me distribute

4:47

these cards. So I was helping with that

4:49

for a little bit through high school and a

4:51

little bit into college. Um. You

4:54

know, I went to Ruget University, and

4:56

um, I received the bachelors in finance and

4:58

computer science. So um,

5:00

you know, during my time in college, I

5:03

was again, I was fascinated

5:05

by gambling in general. I always wanted to kind

5:07

of like beat the game. So I'd read a lot

5:09

of blackjack books, a lot of poker

5:11

books, and but you know, sports

5:13

betting was always like my first love and it's

5:15

something that I just you know, up until then, I couldn't

5:17

beat. So I was always wondering how

5:19

could I beat it? And I was taking

5:21

this class in college. It was called Internet Technologies,

5:24

where um, you uh, you know, you were

5:26

able to One of the projects in the class

5:29

was You're able to go to a website and you're able to

5:31

parse data and part the hteam

5:33

on source code from that data. So I was able

5:35

to do that. I learned these things, I

5:38

you know, using Java on Perl and

5:40

UM. I used these technologies and I said,

5:42

hey, wait a minute, maybe I could apply this to

5:44

the sports books and I could maybe

5:46

part their lines and UM

5:48

and start looking for discrepancies. Around

5:51

that time, there was a book that came out in the h

5:55

by It's called A Complete Book of Sports Betting by

5:57

Jack Moore, and it was a different

5:59

take on sports betting, on how to beat sports

6:02

betting. Instead of you know which every other

6:04

book will talk about handicapping or making

6:06

numbers and power ratings and everything, this

6:08

book introduced a method called the blindfold

6:11

method, which essentially was a way to be able

6:13

to look for different line discrepancies, different

6:15

discrepancies and numbers and um,

6:18

and to be able to kind of bet the outlier UM

6:21

and uh. So I was able to say, okay,

6:23

maybe I can program that because this book was

6:26

still one lines out there. So

6:28

you know, Jack Moore and his book will talk about

6:30

corn a nine line service, you know what I mean,

6:32

crazy stuff like this, but the

6:35

print, the underlying principle want to be able

6:37

to look for discrepancies. So I said, maybe,

6:40

um, I can write some code

6:42

of the stuff that I just learned in my class. I

6:44

think it's you know, it's always great to be able to apply directly

6:46

what you learn in school um to

6:49

uh to you know, everyday life. And

6:52

I started doing that and I saw how how off

6:54

some of these bookmakers were, and

6:56

um, you know, through my junior senior year

6:59

of college. Then I started, you know, just betting

7:01

a little bit, you know, betting betting, and I

7:03

started saying, Wow, this thing could actually

7:05

work. But I wasn't, um,

7:08

you know, ready to go

7:11

full force and say that's it. This is gonna

7:13

be my career. Um. So

7:15

that was all through college. You I'm going to get

7:17

into maybe after I graduated

7:19

and where I started. Yeah,

7:21

when you when you got your job out of college,

7:24

where was it? And then how did your

7:27

what you just described in your head about sports

7:29

betting excuse me, sort of overtake

7:32

what you were doing in your day job. Yeah.

7:35

So, um, you know, I uh, in

7:37

my day job, I I worked at Deutsche

7:40

Bank, um, right on Wall Street and

7:43

and and it was great, you know what I mean. I was. I was

7:45

again, I had that unique computer science

7:47

and finance degree, so to be able to work

7:50

in the financial world as an I T

7:52

guy. I kind of understood things, and I

7:54

I knew exactly what I was

7:57

coding. So this was you know, it was

7:59

it was. It was a great position and

8:01

I learned a lot. And

8:03

and from that though, I was always still betting sports

8:05

on the side using this program. I

8:07

kept fine tuning this program I

8:09

wrote through the last end of college and then after

8:11

graduation, and then it

8:13

got to the point where in in in

8:15

two thousand three, which is three I graduated two

8:18

thousand where I said to myself,

8:20

I'm like, you know what, I'm making more money

8:22

on this side than I was at my

8:24

regular job. So you

8:27

know, I was just married at the time and just recently

8:29

married, and I told my wife, I think it's it's time to make the plunge

8:32

here, um and and

8:34

become a professional sports bettor. And

8:36

you know, I got a lot of a

8:38

lot of definitely, you know, push back. You know, my family,

8:41

my mother and all my

8:43

a lot of like, you know, you know, I mean, we went to college.

8:46

How are you gonna bet sports for a living? This is this

8:48

is a pipe dream, This doesn't exist. Um.

8:51

And then you know, nobody understood though that I wasn't

8:53

just gonna say I'm gonna bet sports for living without testing

8:56

it for several years prior. So

8:58

UM that that helped me get my start

9:01

and help I had the basis, had the foundation,

9:03

and I knew I was going to be successful. I just had to put

9:05

the work, the time in and

9:08

um and use a lot of the methods

9:12

of what I learned in the blindfold method to

9:14

just look for discrepancies. Talking

9:17

to spank you by the way, right here in a numbers game

9:19

at vast in the sports betting networks, Gil Alexander,

9:22

So part, let me ask

9:24

you this. Obviously one doesn't

9:27

well maybe it's not obvious. One I would

9:29

assume doesn't have the initial thought,

9:31

oh, I'm gonna make these systems and

9:33

beat sports betting that way. I assume for

9:35

some period of your life you tried,

9:38

you tried betting sports the old fashioned way,

9:40

just with your opinion. UM,

9:43

how did that go? Initially? Just

9:46

so you know, just like most it went pretty bad. I

9:49

you know, I in my opinion is I

9:51

didn't have a good opinion. You know, I used to be

9:53

a big sports fan. UM. I used to like

9:55

sports. I used to watch sports. I enjoyed sports.

9:58

UM. And you know, just like everybody else.

10:00

I thought I could just watch a game and then you

10:03

know, to be able to just look at the game, see what happened

10:05

in the game, and then you know the next week's

10:07

games or the next day's games, know what to predict

10:10

what's gonna happen uh the next day. And

10:12

um, you know, you learned fast that that's

10:14

not a winning formula. So um.

10:17

And I was always you know, being

10:19

a computer scientist, it was always important

10:22

for me to try to create some type of

10:24

a black box approach, um,

10:26

to be able to just take opinions out of

10:28

everything and to be able to just feed in the

10:31

data and for it to be able to crank out.

10:33

Hey, listen, this is the best thing now. You know, in

10:35

the beginning when I was doing is, I was middling, and I

10:37

was scalping games, and this was

10:39

an important thing to be a help build my bank roll and

10:41

to minimize my risk. So I would look

10:43

for discrepan season and you know, I would lay five and

10:46

take seven on the same game and and you

10:48

know, hope the game landed five or seven for

10:50

a pushing a win, or land six for a

10:52

double win. So I was doing that a lot,

10:55

and I was slowly building my bank roll. And you

10:57

know, in order to do that, of course, you

10:59

know, I had to I had to know what every half

11:01

a point was worth. That was big. So

11:03

there was a website. I actually checked it out, um

11:06

a few months ago. It was called the Logical

11:08

Approach dot com. And I keep in mind this was um

11:12

and uh, you know, the Internet was still

11:15

relatively you know, in its infancy stages,

11:17

so there wasn't really much places to buy data.

11:19

So this guy by name of andyus koe

11:22

or and I don't know how to say his last name, Andy Isco

11:24

ran this website and Disco, yeah,

11:26

and Disco ran the Logical Approach

11:29

dot com. And if you go to that website, it

11:31

looks the exact same as it looked

11:33

back in two thousands.

11:36

Um, it hasn't changed. And he was

11:38

one of the few, if and if not the only, that

11:40

was actually selling data pass past

11:42

data, online history and

11:45

you know closing line and and and you

11:47

know, home away stuff and all this. So

11:49

I was able to use that data to try

11:51

and to find out, you know, what half points worth. I remember

11:54

the college data went back to maybe nine eighty

11:56

nine or nine. I remember the NFL

11:58

data went back to two. Um.

12:01

I distinctly remember that because you know,

12:03

a lot of the data I had to clean up. You know, a lot

12:05

of the NFL data pre pre

12:08

two point conversion wasn't really applicable,

12:10

applicable you know, for the new game. The game

12:13

had changed, and a lot of different numbers

12:15

were worth a lot of different values. You

12:17

know, four on because of

12:19

the two point conversion. You know, obviously the one would

12:21

lose value because you know, if a team is down to

12:23

they're obviously gonna go for two, so they're

12:25

not gonna kick the extra point, so the one would

12:28

land a lot less. But then of course you

12:30

know, if the two would be worth more, the

12:32

five would be worth more, and of course

12:34

the three would be worth more because if they convert the two point

12:36

conversion, that's a higher chance of overtime, etcetera,

12:38

etcetera. So these are things that you know,

12:40

you kind of I was able to try to uh

12:43

extract that and know what every half

12:45

point it was worth, and know what a profitable middle

12:48

was. And that was the biggest

12:50

thing for me to be able to take that approach, and

12:53

and and and and and and take

12:55

it from essentially a top down approach

12:58

um where I'm just looking for nd the discrepancies

13:01

instead of a bottom up approach where I'm actually

13:03

trying to create power ratings and create lines

13:05

myself. So just to sort of

13:07

just to sort of summarize what you're saying for because there's

13:09

a lot of people who are going to be listening here

13:12

and are not the most sophisticated

13:14

bears might not catch onto what you're saying. So instead

13:16

of being, you know, a guy who originates

13:19

at a guy who handicaps games, you applied

13:22

concepts that you were first fascinated

13:24

by, first of all growing up and then obviously

13:26

in school, but the ones that you really honed

13:28

in Wall Street and essentially applied

13:30

those principle, those trading principles

13:33

to sports betting. And

13:35

there's a story that's that's pretty famous. You at Deutsche

13:37

Bank, you were middling, you were losing

13:40

juice, as as as middling goes

13:42

uh and um then one day,

13:44

of course you hit them, and then you hit another,

13:46

and you hit another and then you realize, well,

13:49

I'm onto something here obviously, um

13:51

so. And and by the way, what you were just

13:54

describing to actually hone your

13:56

craft to figure out the value of what every

13:58

point uh means I think just on

14:00

its surface, universally, people

14:02

will listen to that and they'll be like, oh, that's I mean, that's

14:04

awesome. How can you how can you not

14:07

appreciate that. On the other hands,

14:09

Banky as you know, uh, that's

14:11

not without controversy, right, So as

14:13

you have grown your

14:15

operation because your operation is vastly

14:19

larger now than it was then, Uh,

14:22

you hold this very unique

14:24

place in the betting ecosystem.

14:27

And obviously bookmakers they don't like

14:30

uh, you know what they call

14:32

uh, what's the term they use for it again,

14:35

scraping? What is the term they use

14:37

is different from what we would call it on our side,

14:39

But it's the

14:41

The issue is also not only behind the

14:43

book because you're you're chasing numbers

14:46

from their perspective, but originators,

14:48

people who actually do handicap their

14:50

stuff. Um,

14:52

they are not fans of yours

14:55

because it's not as benign

14:57

as you you know, just how

15:00

having this network and box associated

15:02

with it where you can you know,

15:04

spread it out and middle at will

15:07

uh scalping. By the way, what percentage

15:09

of your business would you say is scalping? What percentage

15:12

of your business would you say is actually taking

15:14

a position based on other opinions.

15:17

Well we we Initially it was all middling

15:19

and scalping. Now we're taking positions.

15:22

Um, but I'm still if I'm heavy on a position

15:24

and um, and if I want to be able to limit my exposure,

15:27

I'm definitely gonna be able to buy back. I have you

15:29

know, designated cold accounts that are able to

15:31

help me buy back to help mitigate my risk. Um

15:34

okay, yeah yeah. What would you what

15:37

would you say? What would you say about the criticism

15:40

levied by originators who are

15:42

like, all right, um, yeah, that's great and

15:44

all spanky, but you're essentially

15:46

taking all of our work and

15:48

capitalizing on it to such

15:50

an extent now with your network that

15:53

it almost becomes this massive, uh

15:56

massive greed money grab and

15:59

we're actually the ones doing

16:01

all the real work. What would you say?

16:04

Not listen, you know that there's a negative connotation

16:07

originator non originator. Um.

16:09

You know I originate millions of dollars annually,

16:11

so that you know this whole originator

16:13

thing, it means nothing to me. Um. The

16:15

minute somebody places a bet into

16:17

a market and that market reacts

16:20

to that, and a bookmaker moves the line that's

16:22

public information. So I'm just utilizing

16:24

I know, I um, I've

16:27

I've found a way and we could discuss this

16:30

um more in detail, but I found

16:32

a way to understand you know early on

16:35

that UM. You know, you want to work smarter,

16:37

not harder, UM. And and the way

16:39

to work smarter is to be able to look

16:41

for discrepities and find out what's missing

16:44

UM versus just UM.

16:46

You know, try to create something from scratch.

16:49

UM. And again there's a lot of different

16:51

technologies, a lot of different tools that were built.

16:54

And you know, the hard the hard work

16:56

that we've done UM

16:59

on our end um is incredible.

17:02

Uh. You know, you know again I might I've

17:04

been using Bob betting for soham long

17:07

and it's one of those things in which you

17:09

just it's it's it's our operations,

17:11

like you said, has skilled incredible. We'll

17:14

we'll flesh that out a little more when we come back. Also want

17:17

to get in a whole bunch of other stuff with Spanky. How

17:19

he balances, uh

17:21

keeps accounts with what he does. I

17:23

mean, that's an entire art form

17:26

in and of itself. Spanky right here

17:28

exclusively especial edition of a numbers game

17:30

right here at the Sports Betting Network.

17:32

Welcome back to a numbers game with

17:35

Jill Alexander. A

17:37

numbers game at Vison brought you by man

17:40

Escaped dot Com. Man Escape dot Com

17:42

as the tools for your family jewels. You can

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That's off at man escaped

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dot Com with promo code v S.

17:53

I n saw the UH Shark

17:55

Tank rerun last night where both

17:57

Mark Cuban and Lorie Grenier actually buy

18:00

in to invest in man Escaped, so

18:02

that was interesting to see yesterday. It is Gial Alexander

18:05

live in San Francisco. Spanky kind enough

18:07

to join us for most of the

18:09

show here today Chris Andrews and Paul Carr coming

18:11

up later. I want to give you a chance here, Snakey, to

18:13

flesh out what we're talking about before the break um

18:16

for those who missed it, again talking about Spanky's network

18:18

and the notion of originators UH

18:21

taking issue with it, and

18:23

you know, I would sort of add on to that and

18:26

you can address it all at once. I guess do

18:28

you ever, do you ever have moments

18:31

where you have any doubt

18:34

about what it is that's doing any scruples

18:36

about it, I guess, and the other thing, you know, and this is

18:38

sort of a random thought, and I hope you I'm not trying to be flippant

18:40

with this, but I always think about if we

18:42

were back years

18:45

however, far back in time, and you

18:47

did this, then, like if there was an old if

18:49

those were old school wise guys, right

18:52

or mob guys, like, how that

18:54

would fly in a different era? Also, yeah,

18:58

you know, so just kind

19:00

of explain a little bit more. You know, there's two ways

19:02

to make money in this business. There's a top down approach

19:05

and the bottom up approach. Um. A

19:07

bottom up approach essentially is gonna try to

19:09

determine what to bet. You know, what teams

19:11

to bet on. You create a

19:14

handicap, you create power ratings, you crank

19:16

out a number and and and then

19:18

you know you're able to execute right

19:22

the top down. Not only you know, not

19:24

only do you have to know what to bet in in

19:27

sports betting, you have to win tibet

19:29

and how to bet. And this is where you know, where where

19:31

we believe we're we become experts on so

19:33

what tibet becomes. You know, we're able to

19:35

analyze this information and

19:37

and we kind of are able to analyze line

19:39

moves and then we know how to bet

19:42

and when the bet. How to bet meaning um,

19:45

you know, to be able to get down a significant

19:47

amount of money in a short period of time,

19:49

um, using automated betting tools

19:52

and whatnot, and when tibet,

19:54

knowing how to time the market, knowing exactly

19:56

when I could come in at the peak if I'm gonna let's

19:58

just say, you know, take a dog and

20:01

a line is seven, but I feel as if I could get a seven

20:03

and a half knowing when to wait, to

20:05

be able to see when that line will will

20:07

will will peak. And that's just an

20:09

art. That's just something you learn. Um.

20:12

With respect to uh, to anybody

20:14

having taking issue with what I do,

20:16

again, all the stuff I use is public

20:18

information. Um. You know, we're always

20:21

trying to find the information and some of it's

20:23

not so public just to be honest, you know what I mean, Like they're

20:25

there. You know, it's a lot of hard

20:27

work. When I was coming up in a business, you know, we

20:29

would call different schools and and and and

20:31

and you know, try to talk to school newspapers

20:34

or try to call athletic departments

20:36

and try to find out. You know, there was times which we've

20:38

even you know, piped into the coaches themselves.

20:40

You know how it's practiced today, UM again

20:43

trying to beat the market, trying to find out

20:45

things that the market doesn't know. And

20:48

and this is where where our specialty

20:50

is injury information, things

20:52

that that are that are not reflected

20:55

in the current line. It's so much better

20:57

and so much easier, in my opinion, to

20:59

be able to know, you know, to be able

21:01

to find out what's missing, UM, then

21:03

to create something from scratch, UM,

21:06

finding out what's the missing piece

21:08

of the puzzle. UM. Any bookmaker

21:11

that ever has any any issue, UM

21:13

would say, hey, spank you know you don't want

21:15

originate numbers, you know. So these

21:18

are not bookmakers. These are dressmakers. You know, because

21:20

now we're getting into the why of somebody's

21:22

betting. UM. You know, a bookmaker, you hang a

21:24

number to take a hit. The numbers there, it's open

21:26

for everybody. Why I'm betting, you know,

21:29

the New York Giants plus seven? You

21:31

know that's just because you know, I believe

21:33

it could be because I believe the line is going down to five,

21:35

or it could be because you know, I like the letters N

21:37

y g or maybe seven is my

21:39

lucky number. You know what I mean? It has nothing that there is no such

21:41

thing as why in this business everything

21:44

is boom. I'm just gonna bet, you

21:46

book the bet and let's it. You move on. So

21:48

anybody that takes issue to originate

21:50

or non originator, these are not bookmakers.

21:53

This is again I learned again with

21:55

with with that Jack Moore book that

21:58

you're trying to be able to get

22:00

down at the best priced and

22:02

they're trying to beat the closing line, and you're trying

22:04

to get down as much as possible. Handicappers,

22:07

most of these handicappers, just to be a good handicapper

22:10

means nothing if you can't get down, um,

22:12

because all these bottom up guys they could, you

22:14

could create great numbers. But what good

22:16

is it if you can't bet, if you don't know when a time

22:19

your bet, if you don't know how to get down significantly

22:21

where for me, I'm able

22:24

to be able to extract the information. But I know how

22:26

to bet and win to bet, and I know how to time the

22:28

market to be able to get the best of

22:30

the number and to be able to

22:33

to maximize my urn. Yeah,

22:36

and and I mean there's so many much

22:38

of that that I want to follow up on, you know, because

22:40

they again, for the

22:42

common person sitting here,

22:45

you are one of a kind. I

22:47

don't believe that anyone can really

22:50

duplicate your operation, and

22:52

in many respects that might

22:54

make you, in again

22:57

a controversial way, maybe more

23:00

powerful than anybody. Will droll down

23:02

into that, and again we'll get into the whole notion of

23:04

the art of what you do. Balancing

23:06

accounts, um, not getting

23:08

banned, um. All fascinating

23:11

stuff from Spanky right here in the numbers game at base

23:13

in these Sports Betting Network, Welcome back to

23:15

a numbers game with Jil Alexander.

23:19

It is Gael Alexander right here on a numbers game

23:21

at decent Spanky my

23:23

guest today on the show. And let me just stay in

23:25

advance making in case you were sort of getting

23:28

this in your head, Like I absolutely

23:30

I am convinced that if there were

23:33

no you, someone else would fill this

23:35

role in the ecosystem, right Like, so I

23:38

completely get that it just happens

23:40

to be you, and that's why we're talking to you, because

23:42

you're the guy who devoted your your

23:44

life to this. But I totally get

23:47

that this that this role would exist

23:49

in the ecosystem. People can debate how

23:51

much they like or don't like that rule. But

23:53

what about my two questions before the commercial?

23:56

One could anyone

23:58

like if anyone today started

24:00

out and they're like, you know what, I love

24:03

this spanky dude. I love exactly what he

24:05

does. I'm going to set out to

24:07

to do exactly what he does. First

24:09

of all, whether your advice would be to tell

24:11

them to even bother trying or out as another story?

24:14

First of all, could they duplicated? Do you think?

24:16

And secondly, and I said this before the

24:18

break and and no hyperbole

24:21

here when I asked this, but could

24:23

you make the case that because

24:25

you operate in the manner you do and

24:27

have the network that you do, that

24:30

you wield more power in

24:32

sports betting, at least this side of the world, uh,

24:35

in sports betting markets than anyone else.

24:40

You know, Uh, you know that. I don't

24:42

even know what when you say power,

24:44

it's just what happens. Is I just you know,

24:46

I look at things more from a technology

24:49

standpoint, and I've always looked at it that way.

24:51

Taking this top down approach um

24:53

will be able to stand the test of time. And I kind

24:56

of had that foresight early on, because

24:58

a lot of these you know, quote unquote originators,

25:01

handicappers, a lot of them fall by

25:03

the wayside. You know, even many that have come on your

25:05

show, UM, you know, have gone broke,

25:07

have gone busto tapioca,

25:09

um, where they're no longer relevant. They need

25:12

free roles to be able to support them.

25:14

UM. For me, you know, I've always stayed

25:16

relevant. I've always you know, tried to

25:18

be h on and tried to stay on top

25:21

because my my model, my system

25:24

is designed to be able to indirectly

25:26

have the world's best handicappers

25:28

work for me UM by analyzing

25:31

line moves. You know, the best bookmakers

25:33

in the world don't necessarily

25:35

make the best numbers. UM. However,

25:37

they have their customers, and they're able

25:40

to utilize that information from their customers

25:42

to be able to put themselves in a situation

25:45

to hang a price, to be able to bring ourbers

25:47

and scalpers and middlers, to be able

25:49

to give themselves a position that

25:51

is beneficial to them. UM, to be on

25:53

the you know, same side as the sharps.

25:55

As they say, UM, we're the same

25:57

thing. You know. I put myself in a position where

26:00

I'm analyzing these line moves to be on

26:02

the same side as the sharps, and the market

26:04

is going to determine who the sharp guys are. Um.

26:07

You know, being sharp is not you

26:09

know, being a sharp handicapper or being an

26:11

originator. UM. A lot of very

26:13

few are like Billy Walters that have stood the test

26:16

of time over decades and decades. Many

26:18

of these guys, you know, they're great, but then a

26:20

lot of them fizzle out. UM. So

26:22

so if somebody wants to do what

26:24

I do, it's definitely it's

26:27

it's hard. Um. But if you do get

26:29

successful at it, um, it's

26:32

it's a system that will last, you

26:34

know, as long as you have the proper technology

26:36

and the proper connections. UM. And again,

26:38

I've been in Costa Rica fifteen sixteen times.

26:41

I know every bookmaker that they're any relevant

26:43

bookmaker, either directly or indirectly,

26:45

they all know who I am. UM.

26:48

And this took years and years to develop.

26:50

Um. It just doesn't happen. And and you know,

26:53

I don't just walk up to a door and say, hey, I'm spanky.

26:55

You want to be friends, you want to talk, maybe do some business

26:57

snow, you know, but the word of mouth

26:59

has got around and my reputation was

27:01

built organically, not using social media none

27:04

of that. Um, anybody that's who's who in

27:06

the business knows who I am

27:08

based on my work and and and

27:10

based on on what I've produced,

27:12

um, you know, and bookmakers

27:15

themselves will be able to tell you because

27:17

I can't really comment if I'm good

27:19

or not or anything like that. But I think the bookmakers

27:22

themselves will be able to comment, um

27:25

on on how good or

27:27

are are, you know, because they see my work. They're

27:29

in the weeds every day, so they know,

27:32

you know, what I can produce. We've

27:35

we've we've probably barked up that tree as far as

27:37

we can here, spegan, let me move on to some other stuff

27:39

about your operations specifically, because this

27:42

I imagine on a day to day basis

27:45

non pandemic times, but in a normal

27:47

sports calendar, is what you deal with

27:50

every day, and it must be fascinating

27:52

to to observe. Uh

27:55

maybe you're so close to the sun that it's not fascinating

27:57

wouldn't be the word you would use, but obviously challenge.

28:00

And it's about really, you

28:02

know, line shopping

28:05

and amounts at its core. So

28:08

the earlier you bet, and again you

28:10

have this network of hundreds of

28:12

not thousands of outs. The earlier

28:15

you bet, the better the price

28:17

you're gonna get, but the less you're gonna be able to get

28:19

down. Uh. The later you bet, the

28:22

worst the price you're going to get,

28:24

but the more you can get down. So I

28:26

imagine that's an art form

28:28

to begin with. And then after

28:31

that, I guess it becomes

28:33

the balance of not getting banned

28:36

from let's say some of the more outlying outs, maybe

28:38

not the big names that people would know from

28:40

off shore. Um, so

28:43

is that an accurate assessment? Like those are the

28:45

two big struggles of your vocation?

28:49

Ye hit the nail on the head, gil

28:52

um you know. And again this is everything I

28:54

see speak is from a professional

28:56

standpoint. So a lot of the listeners, if you're recreational,

28:59

um, you know, thinking about not getting banned

29:02

or thinking about being able to maximize, um,

29:04

the amount you get down probably doesn't apply to most.

29:06

So just you know, again keep in mind this is just

29:09

from a professional standpoint. Um.

29:11

Yeah, but it's a fine line you have to walk,

29:13

like you said, to be able to maximize the

29:16

best price and the amount

29:19

you get down. So this is this

29:21

is very important. You definitely definitely want to

29:23

work on that and um and at the

29:25

same time you also want

29:27

to be able to UM two

29:30

not only get the best price and get down, but like

29:33

you said, not get banned and UM.

29:35

You know a lot of guys, you know a lot of guys they bet

29:37

props where they bet these exotic things. You

29:39

know, I have my own prop guy that does a lot of these props,

29:42

but it's hard to be able to do that and it

29:44

will stick out like a sore thumb. So we

29:46

mix a lot of that prop stuff in with legitimate

29:49

you know, NFL work and stuff because the bookmaker

29:51

loves to see NFL work. If you bet

29:53

the NFL, the bookmakers relieved

29:55

because the NFL, in my opinion, is close

29:58

to being as unbeatable as any sport out

30:00

there. So you know, when a bookmaker sees

30:02

that, it kind of gives you I don't want to say cover,

30:04

but it kind of gives you. You know, it is kind of

30:07

a camouflage cover to be able

30:09

to last longer. Um, and

30:11

for them to give you, be able to give you a longer

30:13

leash, to be able to get down on the stuff

30:16

that you have a bigger edge on that's

30:18

a very I I hope people seized on that. Again,

30:20

the more casual better seized on that Spanky

30:23

can last longer

30:26

at certain outs if they

30:28

see him having NFL action.

30:30

That should be just sort of a betting one oh

30:32

one thing about NFL betting, as Roxy,

30:34

the Great Roxy Roxborough said to be many

30:37

years ago when Chrissie he had I

30:39

had at dinner at that famous Pierros. He's

30:41

like Gil, nobody beats the NFL.

30:43

Nobody. And what he meant was not over the course of the

30:45

week, a month, or a year, but long term

30:48

pre flop ats. We're talking nobody beats

30:50

the NFL. So that actually is a

30:52

employ is not the right word, but a method

30:56

by which Spanky is able to have longer

31:00

staying power at some of these outs. That's a relatable

31:02

message for any level

31:05

better. We'll come back. I want to ask you a whole bunch

31:07

of questions. Among them, Spank, Uh,

31:10

do you really not know who Andrew luck is?

31:12

You wear this on your sleeve about not knowing

31:14

who any of these athletes are. We'll get into

31:17

that. Uh. And is that a good look.

31:20

We'll talk to Spanky about that on the other side

31:22

right here in the numbers game and Visa these sports betting network.

31:24

Welcome back to a numbers game with

31:27

Gil Alexander. Don't

31:29

forget. Now is the time to become a Vicent Plus

31:31

subscriber. It is free. You won't have to

31:33

decide what you want to do, pay or cancel until

31:36

at least one of the major sports

31:38

returns. Just go to Visa dot com slash subscribe

31:40

to sign up. That's Visa dot Com slash

31:42

subscribe to sign up. It is a numbers game, Gil

31:44

Alexander and Spanky uh

31:47

in the house today on the show I mentioned

31:49

this also edited to the brake. Spanky

31:51

and I always found this fascinating

31:53

because I used to, Uh, I know other

31:56

handicappers. Who I know

31:58

handicappers, I should say, who like to

32:00

wear it on their sleeve that like, oh, I

32:02

don't watch games. I just I make my pick

32:04

and then I see what happens. And I always tell those

32:06

people like, I'm not wired that way, Like I'm actually

32:08

watching games and stuff. You do this thing

32:10

where you're like, I don't even know who Andrew luck is. I remember

32:13

when you started your podcast. By the way, what's the name of your podcast?

32:15

For everybody's make. The

32:17

podcast is called Be Better Betters.

32:19

UM. It's a podcast be

32:22

Be Better Betters. It's a podcast where

32:24

I, I, you know, give my take his life

32:26

as a professional better and I also interview people

32:28

I respecting the business, bookmakers and other professional

32:31

betters. UM. It's available

32:33

where podcasts are found. We're

32:36

all podcasts are fat. I see you're pro doing

32:38

that already. UM, and yeah, it's

32:40

great stuff that you do. Great stuff on the podcast.

32:43

But like I remember when you were at

32:45

one point you were solstening listening to podcasts,

32:47

and you're like, the criteria is I

32:49

don't want to hear about any players on any team.

32:51

So like you famously, I think Andrew Luck was one of the

32:53

guys you brought up where you're like, I don't even know

32:55

who Andrew Luck is. And I, first of all,

32:57

I refused to believe that was just first of all,

33:00

I get that you don't know as many

33:02

players as other people. Do you just take

33:04

that approach? What did you say

33:07

that? Because you just want to convey

33:09

that the way that you win at betting

33:11

is by the methods we've described earlier on this

33:13

show and not by traditional handicapping.

33:16

UM. And and why I guess someone I'm

33:18

asking is why do you feel the need to to

33:20

stress that. Um,

33:23

well it's a fact, um, so to

33:26

be able to you know this is these are just facts.

33:28

I wouldn't lie and if you could believe me or not,

33:30

you know, Um, I I know several players

33:32

names, but I don't know other players names. And again

33:34

I've been out of the loop for a while. Um,

33:36

you know the day to day operations. Um.

33:39

You know, I have a whole team of guys that run

33:41

in my office now, so UM, I just

33:43

I I'm out of touch. Um.

33:45

And the whole Andrew Luck thing, my friend Captain

33:47

Jack texted me told me Andrew Luck retired.

33:50

And I don't know who that was. And that's that's the God's

33:52

honest truth, whether you believe it or not. I'm

33:54

sorry to laugh. I just probably that ridiculous,

33:56

yes, and I

33:58

and I'm you know, UM,

34:01

it's just one of those things, like you know, this show

34:03

is called the Numbers Game. It's not a name game. So

34:06

everything is based on numbers. Um. You

34:08

know, I bet teams. You know, there's

34:10

a teams in college basketball, I U p U I

34:12

and I p f W. I don't even know what

34:15

these letters stand for. Uh, you know, And

34:17

I've been betting, you know, probably hundreds

34:19

of thousands over the years on these teams or against

34:21

them over the several

34:23

years. And I don't even know what these

34:25

games where they are located, what these teams stand

34:27

for. It's again, it's not about

34:29

I just know that what a half point is worth,

34:32

what the prices um with respect

34:34

to players and watching games. You know, I've sat

34:36

in sports books and guys would ask me, they'd

34:38

give me their spiel and they're tell me, yeah,

34:40

I think this is gonna happen, because it is. And

34:43

again it just goes right over my head in one year

34:45

at the other because I don't know, you know, I don't

34:47

I can't comment. I can't have an

34:50

intellectual sports conversation. This

34:52

is one of the reasons why. And I've never been on

34:54

any show on Visa except

34:57

you know just now, you know, because I can't. I

34:59

believe, I can't provide any value

35:01

or I can't have an intellectual sports conversation

35:04

um with anybody because I don't

35:07

know sports. You know, I've gotten to the point

35:09

now where you know, it's sad to say, but I kind

35:11

of fell out of love with sports. Um

35:13

it's uh, it's just a business for me. It's

35:16

just a means to an end and and and I'm

35:18

just trying to just you know, make as much money as

35:20

possible and um and be successful, support

35:22

my family. And that's it, you know,

35:25

it's it's um, it's

35:27

it's you know, you can't really have favorite

35:29

teams or be fans when you're betting foreign

35:31

against these teams. And with respect to

35:33

watching games, you know, with

35:35

respect to watching games, it's it's it's, you

35:38

know, the more time if I say

35:40

the games go off at seven o'clock, you know, if

35:42

I'm watching a game, that's less time I'm spent

35:44

watching lines. Um again. You

35:47

know, honestly, you know, betting a game live or something,

35:49

but we don't really do that as much. Um again,

35:51

We're just watching lines, We're watching numbers

35:54

and and and that's what it comes down to. That's what

35:56

it's all about. You know. I could talk about

35:58

you know, whether and I think it is important in

36:01

the whole context of sports betting. A lot of people

36:03

will spend time, a lot of media spends time

36:05

on you know, why this team is going to cover the spread

36:08

or why not, but not too many people spend

36:10

time on you know, would you rather you know, lay seven

36:12

plus ten or minus six

36:14

and a half minus oh five on an NFL game?

36:16

You know, so these things? Yeah,

36:19

and that's no, that's exactly why I ask, right,

36:22

I expected that answer, and

36:24

and you're right, what while it is a numbers game,

36:26

I do know names as well though, That's

36:28

why I was asking. But that's the answer I respected,

36:30

I expected because I know

36:33

that I think that needs to be hammered

36:35

home. Uh And beyond

36:37

what you do, there's a there's a broader lesson

36:40

in that and being a successful sports better

36:42

You will maximize your chances to be successful

36:44

if you think of it from a number standpoint

36:46

rather than teams and players, for sure. But

36:49

let me ask you that since you brought it up about you

36:51

know, because because I do a show, right, we we

36:53

do ten hours I do ten hours of this

36:55

every week uh plus podcast

36:58

on the subject of sports betting, and it is

37:00

you know, you come from this very unique perspective,

37:02

as we've outlined here, and

37:05

so it's very what you said is very

37:07

honest. Right, You've never been on a show

37:09

because you don't know specifically

37:12

what you could provide to the audience, and I

37:14

think you know that's a subject that I've brought

37:16

up before on a numbers game at Visa. It's

37:19

a constant balance right between

37:22

how can I do something smart

37:25

while also being entertaining?

37:28

Right, I could, I could do entertainment,

37:30

and it might not be smart. Right.

37:32

There's numerous examples of that. But in

37:35

sports betting, it's this

37:37

really fine line between here's

37:40

authenticity and here's what's actually

37:42

happening with real professional betters

37:44

and actually still casting

37:46

a wide enough net to get people interested. Because

37:49

you know, you know as well as I do, and you just

37:51

alluded to it. What you and I

37:53

are talking about here today is not going to

37:55

be everybody's cup of tea, right, not

37:57

gonna be if my goal here today

38:00

was I'm gonna get the best ratings I've ever had

38:02

in my life. Is it a tough conversation

38:04

for a lot of people because a lot of people can't relate at

38:06

all to it. Um, But if

38:08

we are truly going to be authentic,

38:10

we need to have conversations like this.

38:13

And so I totally respect what you're saying there. I

38:15

totally get where you're like, I don't know, I couldn't talk

38:17

about teams. I don't know what I could really provide because

38:19

most people would be like, well, I don't have spanks network, I

38:21

can't do what he's doing. Um,

38:24

But every so often there's a nugget

38:26

in there that people can latch onto. UM. I

38:28

don't know if there's a question in there other than I get

38:30

that. No, absolutely,

38:32

And it's just like you know, just again,

38:34

instead of analyzing teams just to know

38:37

um an analyzing team stats, knowing what every

38:39

half a point is worth, doing that math, doing

38:41

that research, and knowing bookmakers

38:43

tendencies. You know, I think everybody could

38:45

latch onto something like that. For example, you

38:47

know an off shore bookmaker Grande, you

38:49

know, five minutes to post. It's just like clockwork.

38:52

They always, if they're ever heavier, if they ever

38:54

need action on the side, five minutes to post,

38:56

are always gonna move a number five cents to

38:58

be able to warn action on the side

39:00

that they want action on. So you know, just by

39:03

and knowing that if I see that, they might have

39:05

the best number in the world. I know, listen,

39:07

I'm gonna wait five minutes to post because five

39:09

minutes of post, I'm I could get a better number.

39:12

UM and stuff like that. These are just

39:14

things in which you know and it doesn't have to

39:16

do with handicapping, just timing and

39:18

knowing bookmakers tendencies and

39:21

knowing how they move and how they react

39:23

moves and how much they move, you know, especially

39:25

with auto line movers these days, when

39:28

when when when bookmaker dot EU

39:30

when they move a line from three flat the three

39:32

minus a quarter, that's a big difference.

39:34

When they moved from the three minus twenty. They

39:36

respect of course the guy more that that

39:38

they're moving. So these things

39:41

are are so important and they're just not

39:43

talked about, and like you said, Gil, they're

39:45

only known by people that are on the front

39:47

lines, that are in the weeds day in and

39:49

day out. This is not the casual

39:52

uh gamblers problem. Um,

39:54

The casual gambler likes to just hear about picks

39:56

and why this team is that and you know, you

39:58

know this guy is on the road and he has had this rest

40:00

and all this other stuff where

40:02

you know all this stuff again, if you I

40:05

take the principle that if you believe that everything

40:07

is factored into the line, and then

40:09

you try to find out what's not in

40:12

the line, so you know, you assume the market is efficient,

40:14

but then look for what's missing and

40:16

um and even were alluding to, you

40:19

know, like wise guys and old bookmakers.

40:21

You know, there was a lot of these guys used to tell me

40:23

stories where and I'm pretty sure you heard something

40:25

like this where they would you know, they would have

40:27

guys and paper airplane

40:29

cleaners to be able to get you know, before

40:31

the internet was around, they'd be able to get newspapers

40:34

and it flights coming in from l A to New York

40:36

to be able to get you know, California newspapers

40:39

or Chicago newspapers and kind of know exactly

40:41

what injury status were read the sports

40:44

section, to be able to know, um

40:46

um, you know, information that

40:48

wasn't reflected. And this is the type of stuff

40:51

that you know, again we used to call schools up.

40:53

You're always trying to find out information

40:55

that's not currently present in

40:57

the number. Yeah, um,

41:00

I had Ray Marino. I don't know if you heard last week

41:02

Ray Marino from Bookmaker was on the show.

41:05

One of his betters

41:07

or winners. That's what he said on this

41:09

show. Another thirteen

41:12

percent maybe lose juice. The other

41:14

eight five percent or or thereabouts,

41:17

uh, just stone cold losers. Um,

41:20

but yeah, I just wanted to make that that point

41:22

like, that's that's part of just

41:24

not only on your side, but even on the sports betting media

41:26

side. While you balance you

41:28

know how much to bet at which shops,

41:31

how early, how late, how to keep

41:33

those part of the art here is also

41:36

you know, how much in the weeds can you get

41:38

before of the audience

41:40

tunes out. It's this constant balance.

41:43

Uh. And to the extent that I can achieve that

41:45

properly, that I've done my job. But it's a difficult. Uh,

41:48

it's a difficult balance to have for sure. By

41:50

the way, before we go to break, do you know where

41:52

we met Snaky? By the way, someone reminded

41:54

me of this. I didn't even know. I

41:56

didn't even know the answer to this. I thought something else.

42:00

Oh, I remember us meeting at the when

42:02

we do the draft Kings was running the sports

42:05

Spinning Championship or no, I think I

42:07

met you before then when I was in Vegas, I was betting

42:09

at the South Point for a week, and I remember

42:11

you were there with more. Yeah,

42:13

you know where we met before that? That's where I thought we met.

42:16

Two Jason Weingarten reminded

42:18

me that we met at Sloan years

42:20

ago, and yet when

42:22

we were eating in at cafe next

42:25

to the actual in the hotel itself,

42:27

and I do recall that anyway, This is one

42:29

of these things where I'm like, oh, yeah, that was Spanky.

42:32

Um. But yeah, I didn't put two and two

42:34

together either. I have more questions to ask,

42:36

We got more to come. I want to

42:39

ask you about did you bet the

42:41

NFL Draft during the pandemic? This

42:43

is one of these events that I think would

42:45

cater to the way that you bet. Maybe

42:48

you did, Maybe it didn't, because I think there's

42:50

a size of operation issue in there as well.

42:53

Um, just sort of rapid fire things

42:55

about William Hill and others. You're

42:57

gonna get away unscathed on this show today, Uh,

43:00

Spanky unique, controversial.

43:04

UM. Fascinated to have him on the show today.

43:06

Here on a numbers game at Visa.

43:12

It's a numbers game with your

43:14

host Jil Alexander, who

43:18

believe in analytics. It is

43:20

our number two of the numbers game right here at Visa.

43:22

The sports betting Newick Gil Alexander Serious

43:24

x M two oh four, Visa

43:26

dot Com, the Visa app, Fubo Sling

43:29

Game plus on Down the line. Appreciate.

43:31

Uh, everybody tuning in. Spanky,

43:34

my guest, We got it for one more segment here,

43:36

maybe two, Um, and then Chrissie, Andrews

43:38

and Paul Carl will join us. Uh. Sparky got

43:40

some tweets here, We get tweets at

43:42

beating the book. Uh, Peter Wattrey,

43:45

Wow, extremely high level cover conversation

43:47

about sports betting with Spanky, great questions, A real

43:49

gift for US recreational bettors to sit

43:52

back and learn. That's very nice, Peter, thanks

43:54

to Spank on that low key o g. The

43:56

Spanky interview is the best thing I've heard on VISA in a while.

43:59

Nice. Um

44:01

and Captain Jack, our mutual

44:04

friend. Captain Jack actually tweeted,

44:07

uh, he goes here you go, Guil. The text ex chase between

44:09

Spanky and I where I told him Andrew Luck retired.

44:11

The redacted part was a business discussion we

44:13

were having at the time, But basically there's you

44:15

on text going who's that and he's

44:18

talking about Andrew Luck. Oh

44:21

my goodness. There's one. Uh.

44:23

Spanky does the work always thinking numbers, twenty four

44:25

hours a day. No, Uh, that's from Robert

44:27

Pereghini. Says no life though, meaning your hard worker.

44:29

I guess what he means there, peaches Spanky

44:31

needs to get guilt to the next event. He already has

44:33

the zip up on to fit in. I guess he's

44:36

talking about Jersey there. That's

44:38

my conclusion to that anyway, Um,

44:41

and on and on. So we appreciate all the feedback

44:43

at beating the book. Um,

44:46

and uh, they're all very kind, so thank

44:48

you to that all. Thanks to Spanky, really generous

44:50

with your time and your insight. And again, um,

44:53

controversial. I think we we made that point

44:56

earlier and uh, you

44:58

know that needs to be pointed

45:00

out the reasons why, and you've addressed

45:02

that as well. Um, and people can sort

45:04

of you know, for everybody listening,

45:06

they're going to judge,

45:09

for lack of a better term, however, it is that that they

45:11

want to. Let me ask you this, Spanky,

45:13

during the pandemic, you've

45:15

got a you've got a massive operation. So

45:19

I'm guessing that this is that

45:21

your answer is going to have something to do. Uh

45:24

regarding that, But the NFL draft,

45:26

it occurs to me you make your hay

45:28

as a guy, as we've talked about,

45:31

who looks to get the best of the market, Uh,

45:33

scalp or arbitrage er. Uh. There's

45:35

no better example of a single event to me

45:37

that allows for such opportunity

45:40

as betting the NFL

45:42

Draft, which of course was a

45:44

month ago. Um. I didn't see

45:47

you chiming in on the draft, so I assume

45:49

that you didn't bet. It was that because

45:51

you disagree with my assessment

45:53

that it's this really good vehicle or is

45:56

it just because its not worth it to you either from a limit

45:58

standpoint or the fact that you have this operation

46:01

you didn't want to do a one off with it. Yeah,

46:04

it's the latter. Uh. You know, it's one of those

46:06

things in which um we um.

46:08

You know, we were completely shut down at this point,

46:11

and um you know, we deal with

46:13

hundreds of betting partners and we have

46:15

thousands of accounts, so you know, we we

46:17

don't really want to establish figures because

46:19

again everything's on the credit sides. We settle up

46:21

on Mondays and whatnot, so we don't need

46:23

to establish figures with guys

46:25

just and possibly lose accounts, um

46:28

for the future, just for you know a little bit

46:30

of a morsel of something that

46:32

is advantageous as the NFL props you know, granted,

46:35

if we were betting baseball already in our accounts, already

46:37

active, sure we dabble, and you know, we

46:39

always dabbled and stuff like that. But given

46:42

that we're completely shut down, we

46:44

just felt and it wasn't the time to open

46:46

back up, just temporarily for

46:49

something that short term.

46:52

Um, how about this, let's

46:55

let's I'll just rapid fire with you here too.

46:57

Just random thoughts that sort of come into

46:59

into thinking here. Uh,

47:01

if you were younger and you

47:04

didn't have let's say your family,

47:06

uh maybe even with a family, would

47:09

you consider now, as new jurisdictions

47:11

legalized sports betting, would you consider

47:14

doing hitt and runs on the new

47:16

states that legalize that are opening even if

47:18

you knew you'd be quickly backed off

47:20

or even shut down entirely. No,

47:24

you know, the hit and run type thing. Um,

47:27

you know, I'm at a point right now in which again

47:29

I can't you know. You know, there's like a Griffin

47:31

book for blackjack and advantage

47:34

players, and if they ever create one for sports

47:36

betting, I don't know, I'll probably I I believe

47:38

i'd probably be in something like that. Um,

47:40

I'm not I'm not the bookmaker.

47:42

You know, the bookmakers that are in the know that

47:44

know how to utilize um, guys like

47:46

me. You know, I'm the best friend, but most

47:49

bookmakers they're not a fan of me and

47:51

and and the hit and run type thing is

47:53

just not I'd rather come in the front

47:56

door and be able to have a communication

47:58

and to be able to you know, have him mutually beneficial

48:00

relationship, to be able to use beards,

48:03

and to be able to go in back door, and

48:05

um, to be able to try to you

48:07

know, hide my my identity. It's

48:09

just not one of those things, you know, hit

48:12

and run. What am I gonna last a day? Two

48:14

days a week tops? Um? It

48:16

just doesn't make sense. Um. You know, I have

48:19

all these videos on my Twitter feed because

48:21

you know, I wanted to just show that, you know, a lot of people

48:23

don't believe that you can get kicked

48:26

out of sports book and this is such a very common occurrence,

48:28

you know, for places like a William Hill or

48:31

or Draft Kings or or

48:33

other places. This just happens. And I remember,

48:36

you know, the William Hill guy. I'm like, how do you guys

48:38

do this? And and and how how

48:40

do your customers you know, not complain? He

48:42

goes, well, nobody ever finds out. And

48:44

when he told me that, and I knew, go ahead

48:47

finishing the fish, because I'm I'm teaming to get

48:49

in there. Fish thought, I'm sorry, go ahead, thank

48:52

you right here on a numbers game at Viason, the sports

48:55

betting network. Go ahead, he said,

48:57

you know, customers never find out, And by

48:59

then I already had the tape of them kicking me out. And

49:01

I'm like, that's a shame, because listen, you

49:03

know, I uh, you know, customers need

49:05

to find out. Um, And and

49:08

it's just one of those things which William Hill has gotten

49:10

away with using this recreational model.

49:12

And that's fine, that's the prerogative. But

49:15

um, the world should know that this is how

49:17

they operate the world should know that. Hey, listen,

49:20

if you become successful enough, um,

49:22

they might be saying, hey, patting on the back, great

49:24

job. But if you become good enough and they believe

49:26

they can't beat you, instead of patting

49:28

you on the back, they're gonna kick you in the ass.

49:31

Well, okay, so you know, I wanted to

49:33

bring it up, but you you obviously beat me to

49:35

the punch there, and I don't want to necessarily spend

49:38

the next fifteen minutes. You know, because

49:40

because we've you know, people know where where

49:43

most professional betters stand. On

49:45

William Hill. I've had my own experience with him.

49:47

It's pinned to my Twitter at beating the book if

49:49

anybody wants to listen to it

49:51

after the show. But it really you you made

49:53

the point there, and I think it needs to be stressed. Every

49:56

business has the right to conduct themselves

49:59

as they want, right, and they clearly

50:01

have a business model um

50:04

prior to European influence, certainly

50:06

after European influence, where they

50:10

are not welcoming the action

50:12

of successful betters. Now they parse

50:14

that with words, right, they say when

50:17

people say they kick out winning betters, they respond

50:20

by saying, we don't kick out winning betters,

50:22

when really it's about the

50:24

notion that it's not that you

50:26

have one, it's that they predict that you will win

50:29

based on your betting up to that

50:31

point. But it's not you're not contending

50:34

with their model. It's just

50:36

the fact that they don't cop to the fact

50:38

that they do that, and that they

50:41

don't cop to that. And I'm you tell me

50:43

where I'm wrong with the words here, because I'm sort of filling

50:45

this in where when they don't

50:47

cop to that, it becomes almost

50:49

a predatory thing because all

50:52

of us who are betting from the most first

50:55

time better to the

50:57

most advanced better, you

50:59

are operated under this tacit covenant

51:01

that one day, if I get

51:04

good at this, I'm going to

51:06

win, and I can expect to win. But

51:08

when you, when you behave

51:11

in a way that

51:13

isn't honest about the fact that that's

51:15

not how this is gonna go ultimately,

51:17

because if you get good, if we think you're gonna be good,

51:20

we're going to give you the chance. That's

51:22

really the issue not admitting to that, right,

51:24

it's not the model. It's not admitting to it.

51:28

And it's not just not admitting to it guilt, but

51:30

also denying it when asked, uh, you

51:32

know, when asked up front. You know, I I have a video

51:34

on my Twitter where I asked Joe Asher,

51:37

plain and simple, I'm like, you know, will you ever try

51:39

to implore proper risk management

51:41

that you welcome all customers? And he just says

51:43

on all that stuff about us kicking people out,

51:45

that's all fabricated and that's all overblown

51:47

out of proportion um. You know, again,

51:49

you're you're just completely denying it. Um.

51:52

Where I know people that have had you know, literally

51:54

ninety beards get kicked out of William Hill

51:57

and and it's just it's it's it's one of

51:59

those things. And like you just said, you you

52:01

you brought up, you hit the nail on the head. It's

52:04

one thing if if you if you decide to kick out

52:06

winners, that's your prerogative. But when

52:08

you when you when you when you don't admitute

52:10

when I asked about it, Um,

52:12

that's what it becomes a problem. That's when you're starting an out

52:14

lie to the public and and and

52:16

also to your credit to what you said. You know, every

52:18

sports better out there, I never met a sports

52:20

better. It doesn't think they can't win, you know, I

52:23

don't. You know, it's it's a different form of gambling.

52:25

Everybody that places a sports bet thinks,

52:27

to God's guest best thing, the next best thing

52:29

to handicapping or predicting sports. Um,

52:32

just because you know, there's that fallacy where they think

52:34

if they know sports that they could you know, okay, they

52:36

could probably beat sports betting. But everybody

52:38

has that dream, and I think everybody should have that right

52:41

to dream that dream actually feeds

52:43

the business. It feeds industry that allows

52:45

bookmakers to make enough money to pay

52:47

guys like me. So I want that dream

52:49

to stay alive, and that dream should stay alive. But

52:51

at the same time, um, if

52:54

that dream is stifled, if

52:56

if if that dream is not present,

52:59

then then sports better should know about that,

53:01

should say hey, listen, why should I give my business to

53:03

a place that, if I do get good enough,

53:05

that's gonna kick me in the ass and say hey, you're not welcome.

53:07

Instead, they should be given their business to

53:10

two sports books that welcome them irregards

53:13

you know, uh, irregardless of

53:16

of whether or not they're

53:18

gonna win, or whether or not you know they're

53:21

sharp or not. You know, that's the thing that you

53:23

know you kind of want like that circuit south

53:25

Point. These guys accept customers. God,

53:28

yeah, no, do you do you believe in? And again I want

53:30

to move away from them because there's again they have every

53:32

right to operate however they want.

53:35

And there are like with everything,

53:37

not everything is black and white. There are fine

53:40

people who work. They're just like you know in any

53:42

place as well. And I guess what I'm saying

53:44

just from a from a macro standpoint, you

53:46

believe that in the end

53:49

books that don't whatever the book

53:51

is, that that doesn't welcome

53:53

and you and you distinguish those

53:55

books from what you just said, from the circus and

53:57

the south points of the world that do. But

53:59

it's actually what you're saying is their

54:02

model you believe ultimately

54:04

cost them money because they could actually use

54:07

that information from sharp betters.

54:09

Because here's the thing. If you take this evolution further,

54:12

and again not talking about any specific sports book here because

54:14

I want to get away from that, but if you

54:17

if ultimately you don't

54:19

use sharp better information from

54:22

behind the book to sort of help you

54:24

with Oh, this is information we could use to

54:26

our advantage. If you eliminate that

54:29

sect of betters, and then you only

54:31

have, for lack of a better term here, square

54:33

betters or more novice betters.

54:36

Eventually that those betters

54:38

will crap out, and then

54:41

what do you really have left. I know I'm taking

54:43

that to an almost ridiculous extreme, but

54:45

it's not that outland. This is it not

54:48

at all? You know, I've seen it with my own

54:50

eyes. I've been down a coast street. I've seen some of the world's

54:52

best and biggest operations. Some of the

54:54

best bookmakers operate, and these guys

54:57

understand how to pitch sharps against each other. You

54:59

can't just book one sharp. You have to bring them all

55:01

on. And you have to bring scalpers, middlers,

55:03

guys in arbitrage to be able to warrant

55:06

action and to be able to entice people giving your price,

55:08

to be able to warrant action on the side that you want.

55:11

So it's a talent, and that's

55:13

one of those things a lot of people don't want to invest in that

55:15

talent. The best analogy I could give is,

55:18

let's just say, you know, if you live, let's say in a

55:20

rainy place like Seattle, and and you're

55:22

having your basement is flooding every day,

55:25

um and and you know the flood the water

55:27

is is an analogous to the two

55:29

sharp betters, and and all this

55:32

water keeps coming in. So there's two

55:34

ways you can handle that. You can hire a bucket brigade

55:36

and you get a bunch of guys coming in with buckets

55:38

to be able to just scoop the water out every single

55:40

time, and that will solve the problem. And that's that's

55:42

the you know, the William Hill approach. That's the let's just

55:45

kick the sharps out, or instead you could

55:47

pay a little bit more money. It's gonna cost you warn

55:49

in in the short term, but you pay for money.

55:51

You hire an engineer to be able to

55:53

have that water, to be able to change your leveling,

55:55

and to be able to siphen that water, and to be able

55:58

to use that water, to be able to water your guard, going

56:00

to be able to use it in other ways. This

56:02

is the and and these are are are

56:04

what the best bookmakers do. They're the

56:06

engineers. They're able to use that water

56:09

and to be able to use it accordingly and

56:11

effectively instead of you know, look

56:13

at the silver lining and your life gives you lemons.

56:16

You make lemon a type thing, so you know,

56:18

you're able to use those lemons to be

56:20

able to make something great. And that's the thing.

56:22

And it's so much more um

56:24

long. It's a long term approach. And

56:27

many people are afraid or they

56:29

don't want to put the time and effort in to be

56:31

able to solve these things long term. Because

56:33

guys like cheinical, guys that are you know, that

56:36

have been successful bookmaker dot you you

56:38

know, Ray will be the first time to tell you,

56:40

listen, we have sharps and they win. But that's

56:42

okay because we utilize that information

56:45

and and and and people don't know. And that's a

56:47

talent. It's an art to be able to utilize that information,

56:49

to be able to move enough to be able to

56:51

entice a sharp to take plus four at

56:54

you know, three pm Eastern, but at seven

56:56

pm Eastern the line will close five

56:58

and and and give and that when they when

57:00

the sharp. When the sharp guy took plus four,

57:03

the line was three and a half everywhere. So it's stuff

57:05

like that. Now you might say, oh, that guy might not be that

57:07

sharp if he took plus four, um, given

57:09

the line close five. But that's okay because

57:12

he believed that, you know what, it's not going

57:14

to close plus five. So that's the thing. The

57:16

best bookmakers are the ones that are able to

57:19

warrant that action. And it's

57:21

an art form. That is they're slowly

57:23

dying. And it's a shame that it's dying. Um

57:26

yeah, And and I mean it's a shame

57:28

that. I mean, we'll see rights

57:30

back. I mean, like you know, that's this is obviously

57:32

one perspective on it. I mean, their counter would

57:34

be you know if if if one of them in the room, they

57:37

might be laughing, right, some European

57:40

influenced sports book here might be laughing like,

57:42

trust me, we got this, we know what we're doing. And

57:44

in some respects we would have to be like, all right,

57:46

well the proof is in there putting that's it's exploitation.

57:48

But they got they got it down what they're doing. Um.

57:51

What will be interesting is to see

57:54

how CIRCU goes right in Colorado

57:57

and beyond, because and again

57:59

they've been sort of it's sort

58:01

of been the comp for them has been the

58:03

Pinnacle model. I'm not so sure how accurate

58:05

that is exactly, but it does

58:08

make sense or I think it is accurate

58:10

to say that they're perhaps the closest

58:13

thing, uh in terms of

58:15

legalized operations, and it will

58:17

be very interesting to see how profitable

58:20

they are able to be doing

58:23

it the way that you describe

58:25

as the right way, right, because if

58:27

it's not, let's just say it's not, then

58:29

you can how till you know, whatever

58:32

the expression is, toll whatever

58:34

it is till the end of the day, and it's

58:36

not gonna matter, right, So this will

58:38

be interesting to observe because we only want the best

58:40

for them, the great people. And uh,

58:42

but but the proof will be in the pudding, won't it. No,

58:45

absolutely, And I think just

58:48

by having that you know, winners welcome

58:50

policy, that's that's just a marketing thing

58:52

that I think that Circle should be utilizing in a

58:54

lot more um because you

58:57

know, your recreational business is going to come

58:59

if they that winners welcome policy, because

59:01

then they know, listen, this is a sports book

59:03

that I'm gonna have and no matter, you know, I'm gonna have

59:05

that dream that one day I'm gonna be good enough. Again,

59:08

most are not gonna be, but that dream is still

59:10

is still alive, and they know they listen,

59:12

I'm gonna be here. I'm gonna be a customer forever.

59:15

Um. And it doesn't matter if right now I

59:17

might be losing better, but one day I might win. So

59:19

this is something that you know that that that circle

59:22

can say that no other sports book

59:24

or very few sports books can actually

59:26

say, Hey, listen, winners are welcome. Come

59:28

one, come all. We accept your action. We

59:31

don't um uh

59:34

look at whether or not um that

59:37

you're winning. And you know we're not

59:39

gonna be biased on on your type

59:42

of play. And and again I

59:44

think marketing, from a marketing standpoint,

59:46

it should be capitalized. They

59:49

should capitalize on that because it's a very

59:51

unique thing. And um and

59:53

again, Pinnacle just doesn't make great

59:55

money based on book and all the sharps. You

59:57

know, Pinnacle, a lot of them. They book

59:59

a lot of sucker business because of their

1:00:02

winners welcomes policy. So you

1:00:04

know, sure they have a lot of sharps, don't get me wrong,

1:00:07

but they're still they obviously got a lot

1:00:09

of sucker business because of

1:00:11

their marketing that listen, come one, come all.

1:00:13

They publish articles on how good it

1:00:15

is, on how to handicap games, and how

1:00:17

to model. You know, they're they're not afraid

1:00:19

to give information out there to say

1:00:21

listen, come and get us, no problem. And

1:00:24

and that's you know, that's the old school bookmaker.

1:00:26

These are the guys when I was first coming in the business,

1:00:29

Um, that I've seen and that I you

1:00:31

know, the best of the best. You know guys from Arkansas

1:00:34

guy, but I name of Mr Green, probably one of the best

1:00:36

bookmakers I've ever seen in my life. You know,

1:00:38

these guys, you know, hundred thousand our

1:00:40

best smoking a cigar and a room in Costa

1:00:42

Rica, not even flinching, you know,

1:00:45

it just you know, it might move the line of penny.

1:00:47

They understand their customers,

1:00:50

they understand how to move numbers, they

1:00:52

understand how to warrant action, to attract

1:00:54

action, to be able to maximize

1:00:57

their earn and um and and

1:00:59

and it's an art that, unfortunately

1:01:01

we said GIL is dying, but hopefully Circle

1:01:04

or others can bring it back. Yeah,

1:01:06

because because if not, and this is you know, this

1:01:08

has been my rallying cry even

1:01:11

since before legalization two years

1:01:13

ago. If you

1:01:15

know, the game is not

1:01:17

not stacked in favor of the better, but if there's nothing

1:01:19

for the better to uh

1:01:22

to really bet into that's

1:01:24

favorable in terms of pricing, um,

1:01:28

then the very thing that they're trying to do get

1:01:30

people not to bet an illegal markets,

1:01:32

to not to bet offshore, is going to

1:01:34

be the very thing that they accomplish to get people

1:01:37

to have a better betting experience. And the only place

1:01:39

to find that will be offshore. So it's this

1:01:41

fascinating thing to observe, right absolutely,

1:01:45

and and and you know, let's beyond the there is no

1:01:47

professional sports better in the world today that

1:01:49

it's just betting domestically. Um, It just

1:01:51

it just doesn't happen that there's you

1:01:53

can't the app it cannot the

1:01:56

domestic sports books, legal sports books

1:01:58

cannot fill that appetite. You have to

1:02:00

batt off shorn and able to and in Asia to

1:02:02

be able to get down um enough

1:02:04

to make it worth your while. UM. You know

1:02:06

you kind of wish that wasn't the case. UM,

1:02:09

but it is the case, and it's a fact, and I don't

1:02:11

see changing anytime soon. UM.

1:02:13

But hopefully guys that come up, you know,

1:02:16

like Circa and others, UM

1:02:18

can help UM bring that you know,

1:02:20

that American beast in you know, American

1:02:23

raised bookmaking mentality,

1:02:26

not a European based bookmaking mentality.

1:02:29

Hopefully that can start, you know, propagating

1:02:31

through the nation and um, and hopefully

1:02:33

we can see an influx of of

1:02:36

bookmakers not dressmakers. Listen,

1:02:39

speky Uh, I've got thirty more

1:02:41

questions, but they'll have to wait for another time.

1:02:44

I really appreciate it, and I hope, you know, the

1:02:46

main thing about these profiles that I wanna,

1:02:48

you know, get across is I want to be able

1:02:50

to educate, maybe inspire some

1:02:53

folks who are listening, like oh wow, like I really

1:02:55

this guy really resonates with me. Or maybe it's

1:02:57

the opposite. Maybe there are people listening who are like,

1:02:59

man, I hate this, dude, this is something that I

1:03:01

would never want to do. That's not in my d n

1:03:03

A. But what I what I hope because

1:03:05

because trust me, I'll get from

1:03:07

this. I'll get heat from

1:03:10

all kinds of different directions. Right

1:03:12

Like, it's never you can never please

1:03:14

everybody. Um, but I really appreciate

1:03:17

you stepping forth and and some of those

1:03:19

things early on here are not the easiest

1:03:21

to discuss because as you and I have talked

1:03:23

elsewhere, I come from a background

1:03:26

where I like to originate, and so

1:03:28

I gravitate towards that side of thinking

1:03:30

as well. And there's gonna be

1:03:32

a camp that understands that it's

1:03:34

part of the ecosystem and

1:03:37

is going to just be accepted of it. And there's

1:03:39

gonna be a camp that's like, no, screw

1:03:41

that guy. He's nothing but uh, you know,

1:03:43

he's nothing but a leash. He's nothing but

1:03:46

a guy who's who's going on our work. But I

1:03:48

really appreciate you being honest

1:03:51

and forthright about it and and stepping

1:03:53

into it and talking with us, because I think

1:03:55

you've done a service to uh

1:03:58

many out there who are listening. Absolutely,

1:04:01

and again, the people that hate on me or

1:04:03

unfortunately guys that are not as successful. You

1:04:05

know, the most successful guys don't hate

1:04:07

on me on They understand that this is what I

1:04:10

do. And I'm just like everybody else. I'm a nice

1:04:12

guy trying to earn UM and I work just

1:04:14

as hard as anybody else, if not harder. Um.

1:04:17

You know. Again, I used my tools

1:04:19

and everything, and I became successful

1:04:21

and and it's been a pleasure

1:04:23

of This business has been great to me and

1:04:26

and I wouldn't trade it from me in the world. Thanks

1:04:28

so much for having me Jo, Spanky,

1:04:31

Thank you appreciate it. Man. We'll do it again,

1:04:33

Spanky right here on a numbers

1:04:35

game at Visa and the Sports

1:04:37

Betting Network. We'll do more of these next

1:04:40

week. Joe Peter fascinating

1:04:43

Wall Street background, UH

1:04:45

and flirtation with all kinds of things in the sports

1:04:47

that antate and thin contading. Did hear